March 19, 2024 • 51 mins
Let’s discuss the changing dynamics of employer/employee relationships and the rising demand for workspaces that go beyond mere functionality toward transforming office buildings into vibrant hubs of creativity, collaboration, and community. Discover the key elements of destination workplaces, from reimagined layouts and flexible spaces to curated amenities that cater to employees' physical, social, and emotional needs. This episode offers new insights into the future of workspaces.
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(00:00):
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(00:21):
FOURCY Radio. What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People achefor meaning and purpose at work, to
contribute their talents passionately and know theirlives really matter. They crave being part
of an organization that inspires them andhelps them grow into realizing their highest potential.
(00:45):
Business can be such a force forgood in the world, elevating humanity.
In our program, we provide guidanceand inspiration to help usher in this
world we all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor Elise
Cortez. Welcome back to the Workingand Purpose Program, which has been brought
(01:07):
to you with passion and pride sinceFebruary of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning
in again this week. Great tohave you. I'm your host, doctor
Elise Cortes. If we've not metbefore and you don't know me, I'm
an organizational psychologist and logo therapist,speaker and author. My team and I
at Gusto Now help companies to enlivenand fortify their operations by articulating their purpose
and building inspirational leaders and cultures activatedby meeting and purpose to turn those companies
(01:30):
from a flatline EKG to a vibrantdestination workplace. There people are intrinsically motivated
to perform with their best, cangrow into the fuller potential, and are
committed to stay and dynamically deliver onthe company's mission. You can learn more
about us and how we can worktogether at gustodashnow dot com and my personal
website, Atlascortes dot com. Nowgetting into today's program, we have with
(01:51):
us today Kevin Kelly, who's anaward winning architect, experienced designer and co
founder of the bicoastal strategic design firmSHUK. Kelly as a lifelong advocate of
bringing people together in pro social settings. Kevin's expertise is in studying how the
environment of a place affects our behavior, perception, and decision making. Since
opening their firms stores in nineteen ninetytwo, he has worked with executive leadership
(02:15):
teams from some of the world's mostwell known brands such as Harley Davidson,
Whole Foods, Craft, J M. Schmucker, the Cleveland Orchestra, professional
sports teams, universities, urban districts, and hundreds of local and regional businesses
to stay relevant and profitable and arerapidly changing modern landscape. He's the author
of Irreplaceable, How to create extraordinaryPlaces that bring people together, which is
(02:38):
what we're talking about today. Hejudges today from Los Angeles, Kevin,
A hearty welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank you so much. It's a
pleasure to be here. It's wonderfulto have you. I really terribly enjoy
devouring this beautiful book you brought intothe world. It's just gorgeous. And
as you're welcome, and as Iwas saying to you before we got on
air, in the nine years ofbeen hosting this program, you are the
(03:00):
first and only architect I've had onthat's exciting. I think that's good,
and it says a lot about howour profession is evolving. Indeed, indeed,
and you know, as an organizationalpsychologist and just somebody who's quite quite
passionate about helping people to step intotheir shine. As I like to say,
(03:21):
I was delighted at the way thatyou tell us in your book about
how you discovered your passion and yourcraft at such a really young age.
And so let's open the conversation withyou sharing just that those early days of
what you threw yourself into that laterled you into becoming an architect. I'd
(03:42):
never met an architect before, Ididn't know one, but at age six,
I knew that's what I wanted todo. I do remember seeing a
set of blueprints one time that myfather had laid out on the dining room
table, and if you've seen architecturaldrawings, they have all these little leader
lines with notes and on the side. I didn't know what any of that
meant or said, but it lookedlike the answer to universe to me.
(04:05):
But my real desire for it wasI was overwhelmingly observant of human beings.
I would watch how people knocked onthe door, put the key in the
door, even put ice cubes ina glass. I didn't really love this
ability to observe. It was kindof a neurosis. But I started figuring
(04:29):
out how to turn it into propellerfor my life and started moving forward.
And the thing I was most interestedin were environments where people seemed to get
along, and when I saw peoplefighting or intense. I had certain things
happening as a childhood and during mychildhood that scared me. And I was
probably going sixty pounds and I wastrying to figure out what I could do.
(04:51):
I couldn't fight anyone, but Icould go turn the lights down,
I could put the right music on, I could move the furniture around,
and I noticed it made a difference. And once I started doing it at
home, I started doing my friend'shouses at school, and then I needed
a bigger playing field. So architecturebecame that kind of focus for me.
(05:13):
Most architects aren't interested in behavior,though I should say they're mostly interested in
making objects kind of visual and aesthetics. And I'm fixated on behavior, on
how environment of X behavior. Ithink that's a stunning way to open Kevin
and listeners and viewers, Whether firstif you're a parent or would like to
be a parent, I really wouldlike you to pay attention to this and
(05:34):
just I really think there's such valuein being able to go discover who your
child is and then help them finda way to make that work in the
world, and just go looking withcuriosity. I would have loved to have
been your parent watching this, Kevin. And I know you, yeah,
go ahead. I know you havea young daughter of your own and that
you're also delighting in which is wonderful. And you were going to say something
(05:55):
else, well, I think forwhat it's worth, because I try to
advise a lot of young people outthere, and I find people far too
often pursue what quote makes them happy, and I really believe you need to
kind of focus on what makes youmad and what upsets you, what you're
willing to stand up for. Iexaggerate for effect, but I often say,
(06:18):
what would you cut another person's earoff over? And it's a joke,
But I read a story one timeabout Peter O'Toole wanting to fight everyone
when he realized he wanted to bean actor and they didn't read their lines
right. I get that, andfor me, it's not politics. It's
not education, although I love thosetopics. For me, it was odd
(06:41):
things, the way a room wasset up, the way a restaurant operated,
and I would observe these behaviors inme, and you can physically feel
it, the hair rise on theback of your neck when something upsets you.
And so I started to lean intothat and pursue that, and I
tell my friends, I'm like,doubt that territory. It's more of a
broad, fuzzy territory at first,But just keep pursuing that about what you'd
(07:05):
be willing to fight for because you'lldo that for free, and that's so
much easier than having to do somethingthat you've got to constantly motivate yourself to
do. That's really interesting advice,Kevin. I quite align with that.
We look at where does the Wheredoes does the world break your heart?
Is another way that we look atit. From you to the purpose Spanish
(07:26):
point beautiful. I like that.Yeah. The other thing that I wanted
to echo to your opening of howyou got into this is for leaders now
since we talked to for parents,is I really want leaders to also incourage
I want to encourage them to golooking for this on their teams. What's
that weird, strange way that Sallydoes this thing with the way she plans
for meetings. What's that that waythat Wayne always seems to want to go
(07:48):
about problem solving. Go looking forthat and then just see if there's a
way to be able to unleash that. So it's amazing what happens when people
feel seen and you give them away chance to be able to play as
only they can play. So you'veunleashed that force already, Kevin, just
in your share, So thank you, You're welcome. You're welcome. And
(08:09):
then I just because I'm a partof what I've done in my life in
my career has been a meaning andwork researcher, and so many people ache
for meaning in their lives and theirwork. I thought the way that you
describe how what your work means toyou just needed to be shared as well.
What does your work mean to you? It's everything? I mean.
I don't think we're all wired tobe so fixated in an environment. I
(08:33):
some think some people are fixated theway things sound or the way things feel.
But I'm certainly wired to look athow building shape or behavior, and
you know, I Oftentimes hear peopletalk about saying they're in an environment,
but I don't think we look atthe environment being in us just as much
as food is in us. Andif you eat junk food or candy or
(08:56):
bad food all the time, it'llaffect your health and the quality of your
life. And I believe the samewith environments. And I am shocked at
the number of people with money orcities with money, that live in bad
places that stunt their growth, hurttheir businesses, and threaten their livelihoods.
(09:16):
And I want it to stop,you know. So this is part of
the reason why I wrote the book. My profession hasn't necessarily solved the problem,
and that so much of their workis around kind of intellectualizing design on
some you know, art abstract level, and then we have this kind of
utilitarian approach. But there's a wholelot more room in between that to really
(09:39):
make the quality of life and thequality of our environments a lot better for
our kids, for our businesses,for our main streets or our homes,
and for our local stores. Andwe're going to talk more about obviously you
know what that means, especially forthe workplace. Since the show is focused
on that realm. Though, beforewe do that, I do think it's
interesting that you say in your bookthat you really really made quite a place
(10:01):
for yourself in designing things like aroundgrocery stores, convenience stores, pad stores,
gyms, restaurants, bars. Whythose particular places. Yeah, it's
kind of an odd thing. AsI, you know, we discussed earlier.
I was so observant about everyday places, the post office, the department,
(10:22):
motor vehicles, grocery stores, peoplestanding in line. And when I
went to architecture school, everything wasso focused on operas and orchestra halls and
you know, beautiful houses and aspsand churches and other facilities. And while
those are great and I really enjoyedthose, I couldn't understand why we weren't
(10:43):
solving the everyday places. Why dodry cleaners have to be so bad and
convenience stores have to be so threateningand harsh, like almost like an airport
tarmac? Yeah yeah. And thenI started dealing with the leader of those
entities, and they tend to behyper rationalist, utilitary and efficiency focused individuals
who make a really compelling case whydesign has no place and their places.
(11:09):
But then I started going I thinkit does, so I have to prove
that environment effects behavior and ultimately sales. So I set myself out on a
mission with my colleagues, my businesspartner Terry Shook, who's my mentor,
great architect, and others to reallysay, how can we change these everyday
places? And a word we useis extraordinary, and we break that word
(11:33):
down into extraordinary. How do wetake those everyday places and make them better?
That's so beautiful as someone who reallydoes respond what we all do.
As you know, but I'm maybenot nearly as aware of it as you
are. But when I walk intoa place that makes me, that delights
(11:56):
me. For example, there's aplace here in Dallas called The Finch that's
pretty new on mar you can bringseventy five and do you know it.
I've heard about that. I wasjust in Dallas two weeks ago. I
would love to hear your opinion onit. For me. When I walk
into that place, Kevin, itjust automatically lifts me. It's beautiful,
so it pulls me up. Itinvites me to play with food and drink
(12:18):
in a different way. Fascinating.I've heard about it, I haven't seen
it, but I will tell youthis that the thing that I mean,
we all know something that others don'tknow, and it's great when somebody can
give you some insights and how wefunction as people and work in society.
And the thing that I really spentmy life understanding is how our senses affect
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our behavior, our mood, ourperception of places, and not only intellectually,
but biologically and socially. And whenyou walk into a place that feels
good, it's almost always starting withyour senses first, and we could break
down each of those senses into what'shappening, but those places create a kind
(13:03):
of visual harmony and a social listand a feeling of safety. And when
I say safety, that's physically,socially and emotionally. And when you get
in those kind of forums and they'restimulating your senses, it's so invigorating for
us. And that's when memories aremade. You know, during the pandemic,
when people were staying home, theylost all sense of time because they
(13:26):
kind of hit a cognitive impairment ofjust the same old place in and out,
and they couldn't remember their memories well, because memories are generally differentiated through
the places we're in. If wethink back to all our great memories.
We imagine being on that dock,or on that island, or in that
restaurant. We all remember where weproposed or where we are one of our
(13:46):
relatives was born. There's something reallypowerful about memory and place, and it's
those types of things that really makea place feel great. And so I'm
always looking for those types of behaviorswhen I see people entering that social bliss
and that social harmony. And ifI could extend this idea a little further,
(14:09):
as human beings, we like toget in sync with other people.
That's what's so powerful about a movie. You know, where we generally walk
around pretty defensive, we suppress ouremotions because we always have to appear like
we're in control. But when wego to a dark room theater with a
bunch of strangers, we can cry, we can laugh, we can scream
(14:30):
around them because the movie does sucha good job of breaking those barriers down
and eliciting those really powerful emotions,which are therapeutic for us. Right,
who would think crying is good?But it's very good. I would,
I know, yeah you would.And so when you go to a place
that feels good and you walk aroundand you stroll hand in hand, and
(14:52):
you see other people and you feellike it's okay to say hi or to
talk to a stranger. That makesus feel really good. We're cooperative species,
and when we feel like everybody aroundus is cooperating and we're all together
and we have a sense of belongingand synchronicity, it's very powerful, and
it's really lacking in our current era. We spend up to seven eight hours
(15:13):
a day in front of a screenthat is having a significant impact on our
ability to relate to others and tofeel that social connection. Indeed, I
completely agree, and that's why Ithought there were so many things about your
book that you wrote about that Iwere wholly unanticipated, like this all that
we've been talking about so far,and more to come. On that note,
(15:35):
let us take our first break.I'm your host, Doctorlie's Cortes.
We've on the earth Kevin Kelly.He's the author of Irreplaceable, How to
Create Extraordinary Places that bring People Together. We've been talking a bit about where
his original ideas came from, whythey're important to us as human beings,
and really how we can live amore vibrant life when we pay attention to
place and do something to actually stewardit the way that we like. We're
(16:00):
going to talk about this new multidisciplinaryfield that he and his team has created
called convening. Stay with us,we'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortes
(16:22):
is a management consultant specializing in meaningand purpose. An inspirational speaker and author,
she helps companies visioneer for greater purposeamong stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership
and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce.
To learn more or to invite alease to speak to your organization,
please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
(16:47):
employees working on purpose. This isworking on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes.
To reach our program today or toopen a conversation with Elise, send an
email to a lease a LISEE ateliscortes dot com. Now back to working
on purpose. Thanks for staying withus, and welcome back to working on
(17:15):
Purpose. I'm your host, doctorElise Cortes, as I too, am
dedicated to helping create a world wherepeople realize their potential at work and are
led by inspirational leaders that help themfind and contribute their greatness, and we
do business at Betters the World.I keep researching and writing my own books.
So the latest one came out inMarch of twenty twenty three. It's
called The Great Revitalization. How activatingmeeting and Purpose can radically enliven your business.
(17:37):
And I wrote it to help readersunderstand the lay of today's workforce,
what they really want to thrive,and then I offer twenty two best practices
to help equip you in your cultureand leadership to provide that for them.
You can learn more about my booksat a lasecoretes dot com or find them
on Amazon if you are just joiningme today. My guest is Kevin Kelly.
He's an award winning architect, experiencedesigner and conder of the bi Coastal
(18:00):
Strategic firm Shook Kelly. So Iwas quite intrigued. There were so many
things about your book that I,like I said, did not expect and
was delighted by. And one ofthem is this notion of this new multidisciplinary
field you and your team have createdcalled convening. Let's talk about that.
Yes, my business partner and Iwere. You know, we're thinking a
(18:25):
lot about language and our team andI are extremely observant about the words people
use, the jokes they tell youwere talking earlier about organizations and helping team
members. Well, when we interviewpeople, we are beyond focused on where
they sit, if they cross theirlegs or not, what kind of drinks
they put in their hand, theirpens, their notepads. We're looking for
(18:48):
cues and triggers, and it reallyhelps us understand underneath each leader or each
team member, what they're feeling andwhat big ideas they have. Because we're
so observant to language, we wouldlisten to the way people would talk about
places. They would use words likearchitecture, which tended to have a high
brow kind of sound to it,or they would talk about facilities, which
(19:10):
tended to be very utilitarian. Youwould hear other words out there. But
we started thinking about this idea ofhow it could be bigger and more meaningful
than the kind of old habitual waysI guess habitualays we talk about place,
and so we started thinking about whatare we just trying to attract people like,
(19:30):
no, we want more than that. Are we trying to gather them
we said, well, we likethat, but we want to convene them
around an idea, a big idea, say in the Harley Davidson world.
We want to convene them around freedom, rebellion and kind of stick it to
the man idea. You know,we were looking something powerful, and then
we not only want that idea,we want this forum to have a kind
(19:52):
of structure and experience that impacts you, that leads an indelible endprint on you.
Again, most of this is subconscious. You know it when you feel
it, but it's not something thatyou reflect on a lot other than a
great memory of it. So conveningreally helped us help these help our clients
understand the greater power of their place. I just especially, and we'll talk
(20:17):
more about this as we go,but just really fixated today, of course,
not just on where we live anddwell and visit and play, but
where do we do our work.And that's something we'll talk about later.
I thinking about making it more acompelling place to convene. It just fascinates,
so we'll get there. But oneof the other things that you said
that I thought was really worth discussing, and something that I too find myself
(20:41):
shall we say disgusted by I don'tknow if you are or not, but
I am. But you talk abouthow there's this fixation on ease and efficiency
technology. You're supposed to make thingsfaster and better and easier and all these
sort of things. But then yousay, shouldn't some things in life require
effort? Yeah, there's this thiswhole attack on anything inefficient, and you
(21:04):
hear the tech titans constantly talk aboutit. You hear Wall Street talk about
it, and the spreadsheet driven folksjust constantly talking about ruthless efficiency. It's
almost a prideful thing that they bragabout. And I start, you know,
they keep saying, well, youcan use chat GPT to write a
love letter, And I'm like,well, shouldn't I write a love letter?
(21:26):
Shouldn't I actually make it? Andyou can send a text message instead
of buying a card? And I'musing those as exaggerative examples. But we
have a tendency as humans to notwant to do things, and we get
resistant, and we get kind ofheavy in our seats, you know,
we get heavy on the couch andwe don't want to go out. But
(21:48):
I can almost guarantee you every timeyou go out and go into the world.
You have such a great opportunity toexpand your mind, to activate your
senses, to meet somebody. IfI think about all the changes in my
life, I met my wife inan airport baggage claim on a trip that
I debated about going to, andit completely changed my life. I mean
(22:08):
everything about my life. And tothis day, my wife and I lay
in bed and go can you believewe met in baggage claim. It's that
trip I would have never met her. And so there is this kind of
force out there that wants to keepus at home and our pajamas, binge
watching Netflix, ordering our food inAnd yes, that's easier, but it's
(22:30):
kind of dangerous for us. It'sdangerous for us personally, socially, civilly.
We need to get out and meetthe other and to interact just as
much as we need to walk andmove our body. I align with that,
Kevin, because as a logo therapist, what we know is that we
in logo therapy. For those ofyou who don't know what that is,
it's or logo philosophy is really it'sabout healing through meaning. But what we
(22:53):
know about human beings is that weneed a certain tension in our lives to
be vital. That tension between whowe are today and what we're striving for
tomorrow or in the next moment.There's that reaching that you're really talking about
that we need. Otherwise we becomeapathetic and we start to atrophy, which
is what you were talking about.Yes, yeah, And I just worry
(23:15):
that we are getting more and morethis way. And what I've noticed among
my friends, my colleagues, evenmyself, is this tendency to go.
I got to put on clothes,I got to put on a tie,
I got to go to this event, And we're all developing a form of
social anxiety. Yet every time Ido that, something great happens. And
(23:37):
I just can't encourage people enough todon't let that kind of gravity pull you
down, because you're just going tobecome a lemming. And we all remember
that film Wally and there were peoplefloating around a lot, you lazy boys,
having all their drinks and their legsand their knees didn't work because they
hadn't used them. They couldn't pushbuttons. We're not that far from that,
(24:00):
yeah, we really are. Andwe're growing generations of kids that don't
go out. Yeah, not thatwe want to focus on this, but
I heard statistic that one billion peoplein the across the world are now considered
obese. Yes, so yes,we are getting there. We are getting
there. So let's move on tomore and more interesting or enlivening things than
(24:26):
what important things to talk about.But I was very also intrigued with your
whole bonfire effect idea, Kevin.We've got to talk about that. Sure,
yeah, I you know, Iwon't try to play myself as some
intellectual that grew up, you know, around some glorious environment. I grew
up in the swamps in South Florida. There wasn't a lot to do off
(24:49):
a dirt road, and the weekendswere well. During the week we built
vehicles that look like something out ofmad Max vehicles, airboats and buggies and
four wheel drives, and we allwent out into the six miles out into
the Everglades to a big kind ofredneck river air a mound of dirt in
the middle of the swamps. Andwe came from different high schools in different
(25:11):
places, and we did this everyweekend. It was a ritual, and
nobody sent out a notice because wedidn't have notices back then, but we
knew that's where to be. Andwe also knew how to organize ourselves.
To build a bonfire. A bunchof strangers put a whole bonfire together,
and then they would, you know, the bonfire master would set the thing
(25:33):
a blaze and get just the perfectglow, not too big and not too
small, and it would create thiskind of magical enchantment where everybody got along.
And Carl Jung called this participation mistique. He said, this is when
there's something happening underneath our consciousness thatunites us. It goes back to that
social synchronicity I mentioned. And whenI left the swamps and ended up going
(25:56):
to college and eventually at Arburn myself. I saw bonfires everywhere. I see
them on Rodeo Drive, I seethem on Fifth Avenue. I see them
in you know, Minnesota and Oklahoma. They're everywhere. And I'm very intrigued
with when do people come together andcreate that social harmony and that social connection.
(26:18):
And so a lot of companies havechief brand officers, which oftentimes becomes
more about economics or just promotions,and I'm more interested in what brings people
together around that idea, that form, and that experience, and who's tending
to that flame, because we allknow brands that get too big, the
bonfire gets too big and chases everybodyoff, or they die down and kind
(26:41):
of dwindle and don't really have thatpower to bring us together anymore. Imagine
if Sears had a bonfire master asopposed to a financial engineer figuring out how
to sell private equity. I thinkit would be a wildly different store if
they had a bonfire what do youcall it? On fire? Well,
(27:03):
on fire master. So I advocateto my clients that they create a chief
bonfire master, and that they createa regular functioning group of people who tend
to the flame of that of theirplace to protect its livelihood. It's vitality,
its strength, it's magic glow,and we measure that. We measure
it through a tendance and engagement,experimentation and socialization. Of course, ultimately
(27:27):
with sales. You know what's interestingabout that to me, Kevin, just
quickly that relates to it for me, as what you're really speaking to is
is somebody inside of the organization that'sreally I don't know, stewarding well the
health and the heartbeat of the organization. For sure, it's flame. But
to me that reminds me of whatyou do, or maybe I don't know
(27:48):
if you still do this. Itreally did delight me to know that,
you know, the way that youhave continued to sharpen your own saw and
develop your craft is you know,you're the guy that sits out in parking
lots and the you know, thefolding chair and watches people come in and
out of stores and I think along every week. It's delightful. You
(28:10):
had to confess this to your wife, Yes, I did, and you
know, every day she'd see megoing to work and she'd go, why
are you wearing that? And I'mlike, I just want to blend in
and because I'm going to all differenttypes of environments and I go and just
become an eavesdropper and a lawyer,a professional lawyer, and I just watch
(28:33):
and observe people. And you know, I've been doing this thirty one years
as my own company, and Iwhenever I go to these places, I
don't know what I'm going to find, and that would normally give me an
anxiety. You know, it givesmy staff an anxiety sometimes. And I'm
like, we're just going to sithere until we start seeing anomalies, patterns
(28:53):
and trends. And sometimes that'll happenin one hour. Sometimes it'll happen in
a week. And I help myclients because they're always looking for breakthroughs and
they're like, you, how doyou come up with them? And I'm
like, deviations to the norm.If I see people coming in and everybody's
wearing the same sock, there's somethingto it. Or everybody's driving the same
(29:14):
type of car, everybody's buying thesame type of product. That is a
clue that gets me in deeper.And I will keep mining that seam until
we hit upon the breakthrough we need. So anybody ever come over up to
you and say, what are youdoing? I mean you've been sitting here,
I mean for two hours or threehours? Anybody ever do that?
Yeah? I tell the story brieflyin the book about Ernie the tow truck
(29:37):
driver Harley Davidson. So, oh, yes, you're doing it so fun?
Yes, And so Ernie was agreat guy, and I loved Ernie,
and you know, if I coulddeviate there. The great ritual was
when you go to Harley Store,everybody kind of circles the interior and watches
other people get on bikes and gripit, and people do exactly the same
thing. They look down at theengine, they pull the handle, and
(30:00):
somebody eventually says to them, Theygo, what do you think? And
they have a whole conversation around that. And that would be odd that ritual
at a Banana Republic store if hesaid, what do you think of that
sweater? You going to buy it? You know, we would call the
police. But in Harley store isperfectly normal. And Ernie and I became,
(30:21):
you know, friends, and Iwas just really learning a lot about
them. But I went to anotherstore about an hour and a half away
the next day and lo and behold, Ernie was there. And my staff
started freaking o O, oh,my gosh, Ernie's there. And I'm
like, yeah, what am wegoing to do? So I went up
to Ernie and accused him of followingme. I said, Hey, what
are you doing? You following me? And he said no, No,
(30:42):
I go to different Harley stores everyday because I like to just hang out
and I feel like if I'm notbuying stuff, they're going to make me
leave. That was exactly the insight. I needed my team and I started
focusing on They're like, why doesthe store make you feel like you have
to leave? So then we starteddesigning the stores with bonfires and cafes and
(31:03):
gathering spots and saying why don't youcome here anytime you want? Because everywhere
else, Ernie didn't feel like ahero. He said the funniest thing,
he said, you know, Ineed six pack abs and a MacBook Pro
to go hang out at Soul Cycleor Blue Bottle Coffee goes. But in
this store, I'm a hero.And that was everything I needed to know.
(31:26):
And I get those kind of anomaliesby listening to people talk. I
said it early, but oftentimes jokesare where they really tell me the truth.
Because Ernie said one line and ourdiscussion he said, he said,
yeah, this is a place formidlife is Christ, midlife crisis, males
fading and strength. It told usvolumes everything we needed to kind of start
(31:51):
focusing on. Oh too bad weonly get an hour together. Kevin,
You're delightful and so much. No, it was lightful, was terrific.
I don't apologize for being brilliant.Let's grab our next break here. I'm
your host doctor Release Cortez, whogoing on air with Kevin Kelly. He's
the author of Irreplaceable, How toCreate Extraordinary Places that bring People Together.
(32:13):
You've heard him talk about some ofhis things that he is fixated on over
the years, including the bonfire effectand convening after the work. We're going
to devote that segment to really focusedon being focused on the work versus payoff
ratio of place and how we canreally look at our physical our environment in
the workplace. Stay with us,We'll be right back. Doctor Release Cortez
(32:50):
is a management consultant specializing in meaningand purpose. An inspirational speaker and author.
She helps companies visioneer for greater purposeamong stakeholders and developed purpose inspired leadership
and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce.
To learn more or to invite Eliseto speak to your organization, please
visit her at Elisecortes dot com.Let's talk about how to get your employees
(33:15):
working on purpose. This is workingon purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To
reach our program today or to opena conversation with Elise, send an email
to Elise Alise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
(33:40):
Thanks for staying with us, andwelcome back to Working on Purpose. I'm
your host, doctor Elise Cortes.As I mentioned in the last break that
my latest book came out in Marchof twenty twenty three, The Great Revitalization.
What I did for you is Icreated a three page organizational assessment for
best practices to help you gauge theextent to which your current operations are meeting
the desires standards of today's workforce.You can find it at gustodashnout dot com
(34:04):
if you are now just joining us. My guest is Kevin Kelly. He's
an award winning architect, experience designerand co founder of the bicoastal strategic design
firm Shook Kelly. So this wholeidea here, I've been very, very
very intrigued that part of what Iwrote about it in The Great Vialization is
how vastly things have changed since thepandemic and such, and how people have
elevated their consciousness to recognize what morethey really want from life and the work
(34:30):
revolution. You use the word revolutionin your book that's occurred. So let's
talk about this notion of what youtalk what you call the work versus payoff
of police. Yes, you know, I'll try to make this quick,
but the you know, all overour country, for hundreds of years,
people participate in the American dream ofsetting up businesses and car washes and barbershops
(34:54):
and small cafes and pubs and bars. But since two thousand and seven,
when we had the iPhone come outand the kind of adoption, mass adoption
of social media and online paying,less and less people started visiting place and
places started dying kind of death bythousand cuts because they can't afford to give
(35:15):
up ten to twenty percent of theirbusiness. And yet these people are calling
me to save them and save theirplaces. And when I try to study
how they were competing, they weretrying to emulate the online businesses that focused
on price, variety and convenience andruthless efficiency. And up until that point,
really stores, local shops, localplaces were the only places you could
(35:38):
get things done and get goods.But in this new world, you can
get stuff from China, you canget stuff from into you can get stuff
anywhere in the world. And anybodywith a computer and a garage or even
a smartphone and a you know,on a side of a road can set
up a business. And so it'svery difficult to compete on that and that
contest. So I get my clientsout of that race and like stop competing
(36:00):
on price, writing, convenience,and start convening on other aspects social bliss,
harmony, connection, discovery, adventure. And so when we look at
going to a place versus ordering onlinefrom our pjs at home, to go
to a place, I've got toget dressed up, brush my teeth,
comb hair, getting a car,fine parking, going and building. That's
(36:21):
work and it's irritating, and alot of companies aren't really focused on that
because they're focused on that price,variety, convenience. To MENSI, well,
what I want them to focus onis really making the payoff higher than
the work. They need to workon the work aspect, but they also
need to work on the payoff,and those payoffs are normally emotional and social,
(36:42):
often physical too. There are physicalpayoffs you can get from going to
a place. So whenever we areevaluating a place, the first thing we
do is really break down what arethe aspects that humans would consider work and
what are the aspects humans would considera payoff. And I'm giving you the
short answer of that, Yes,I know, and I appreciate that,
which is just because we it goesby so fast. One thing that I
(37:07):
became very aware of, Kevin,you just said that to so in such
an enlarging way, is how experiencebecame such an important criteria, especially after
the pandemic. People people were searchingfor and wanted experiences, rich experiences,
connective experiences. And so, ofcourse, you know, in my world,
a lot of what I do iseither consulting, speaking, workshops,
(37:31):
et cetera. So the difference betweendoing that via Zoom and in person is
about three and a half worlds topart. Now, Yeah, yeah,
I mean I every time I haveto, I have a choice go visit
my client, do the presentation,or do it on Zoom. Every time
I go visit them, it's alot of work, it's a lot of
(37:51):
expense. The meetings are just somuch deeper, better, the connection stronger,
and the ideas are richer. Wheneverwe do it on Zoom, it
is a lot more efficient, andwe just don't hit that level. Now.
I'm not suggesting we get rid ofthat because it is a useful tool,
but we need to save room inour lives for those connections. We
need to at least do some ofthat in our life. I completely agree
(38:14):
with that. Yes, and evenjust I want to recognize something, Kevin,
about you, even just the qualityof your voice has got such a
it's such a rich sort of it'svelvety. It's a velvety voice. I
hate my voice, but that makesme happy to hear that. I can't
listen to myself talk. Have youheard that before, that it's velvety.
(38:34):
Yes, my wife and one ofmy friend's advisors tells me that. But
but I really appreciate that. Ifeel like I sounds like a guy with
pebbles and whiskey in his mouth.Well it works, It works for me,
and that's my favorite. That's myfavorite sense, Kevin. So just
let's just go with it. Powerful. Speaking of sense, I did want
(38:59):
to go a little bit deeper.You have a whole chapter on making sense
of place that and I know you'veyou've already talked a bit about the importance
of our century experience, our centuryinteraction action with places that we go.
But what else would you like tohelp us understand about this notion of making
sense of place. Yeah, weyou know, there's a famous joke that
(39:22):
older fish asks the underfish house thewater, and the younger fish says,
what's water? Right? Kind ofhave that sense about our lives. We're
not really aware that we're in anenvironment. And as I said earlier,
that environments in us. And sowhen we get up in the morning and
we walk to our office or tothe coffee shop, we don't actually have
(39:43):
a walking plan. Our brain automaticallymakes those decisions. We also don't tell
our eyes where to go. Ourinvoluntary eyes go where they want to go,
and our involuntary sound mechanisms listen towhat they want to listen to.
Now, those aren't random things.Your brain and your body have been hardwired
pay attention to the things that willenhance life and be aware of those things
(40:04):
that could act as impediments or threatsto your life. Well, those same
skills are brought into restaurants, grocerystores, shopping malls, even the office.
And so if you become knowledgeable inhow the senses work and how we
comprehend our world, you'll have amuch greater understanding of how humans behave and
understanding what they do. Even ourlanguage, you know, we constantly talk
(40:27):
about people in terms of being slickor rough on the edges, or hard
headed. These are physical qualities thatwe put into our language, and our
language is based on those metaphors.So it's really important that we study the
senses. But the senses are notstudied in business school, nor in design
school, and none of the retailersor restaurants are learning about the senses.
(40:47):
So therefore, you walk in thebathroom and it looks horrible, and then
you think the food is bad orit smells bad. And I can't tell
the number of clients that have terriblebathrooms that are like, what's the big
deal, And I'm like, getthe bathroom right, and then you'll sell
more seafood. And then they havea hard time believing that. But I'm
like, it is the number onecriteria people base your cleanliness on and the
(41:08):
health of your place. So oursenses are just so powerful and hardwired,
and they've been that way since weevolved as a species. You know,
speaking of the whole toilet issue,Kevin I redusted at someplace that one of
the big reasons that people don't wantto come to work in the office.
(41:28):
Yes, the bathroom experience. Yeah, yeah, this gets back to our
our weakening socialization skills. You know, we're getting really conscientious about everything,
and imagine Instagram on top of this, heightening up this need to be perfect
right and not really showing the unsavoryparts of our lives or what now is
(41:50):
being deemed as unsavory and used tojust be normal. But these are things
that I think we have to workin getting over right. We have to
work at getting used to those things, cooperating and being around each other,
and it's never as bad as wethink it is. But yes, you're
right, people, the bathroom isa very intimate issue, and it's a
(42:10):
very personal issue, and it's oneof the things that companies need to get
right. Yeah, yeah, Iagreed. Well I want to go there
next. A couple had a coupleof questions here. But one thing that
you talk about that's really been interestingto me is, you know, the
reinventing office building in today's changed worldof work. I mean, I have
(42:32):
been so as somebody who helps organizationsto shape and their culture. So much
of what I was doing was helpingpeople recognize why do people actually have to
be in the office each day,that they why when they are asking not
to be The resistance to that wasso interesting. But you really have quite
a really compelling chapter or more whereyou're talking about just this notion of that.
(42:58):
You say that you say many standardforms and shapes, such as the
mall, grocery store, and conveniencestore concepts discussed in this book are long
overdue for reinvention. Same goes forthe institution of institutions, of universities,
museums, and performing arts facilities.But the most concerning standard forms and shapes
needing radical reinvention are office buildings andby extension, downtown areas, central business
(43:22):
districts, and urban employment centers.Yeah, there's so much unpack in that,
and I will try not to hitall of it. But let's start
with form in shape. Because ourbrain is operating off a very low wattage,
about a sixty light bulb of powerfrom calories that we take in,
(43:42):
we try to digest the world asbest we can, but we can't scan
everything, and so we look forthe most important aspects again that relate to
enhancement and impediments to life, andso we do something all predictive coding,
and when we recognize what something is, we don't spend any time on it,
which is okay on one level,but it's not great if you're a
department store or a mall or anotherplace trying to break out of an old
(44:06):
stereotype. Malls certainly are trying tobreak out of those stereotypes. And I'll
meet mall developers that say, well, we've banished the word, we never
say mall. But I'm like,but your building still looks like them all.
It's still the form and shape ofthem all. And that's how humans
relate to buildings. So until youchange that form in shape to something different,
you won't get the reaction you want. The office building and the downtowns
(44:30):
are one of the most concerning featuresI see in our current economy because the
attendance is terribly low and it doesn'tappear to be changing, even with mandating
that employees have to come to work. And so the value proposition was set
up under an old paradigm where wehad to be close. And really,
(44:52):
if you think about the word proximity, proximity was how you moved up in
the world. You had to beclose to the movers and shakers, close
to the factories, close to thecourthouse, all of those things that really
helped. Well, now we don'thave to do that. We can be
on a laptop in Tahiti, andso we need to change what are the
values of proximity in different senses.Now, young people, young professionals,
(45:14):
the creative talent oftentimes are single andlooking to connect with others, and so
downtown environments provide a wonderful opportunity toserve as playgrounds and kind of atom smashers
of social identities and social experiences.So that's about the best bet our central
business districts have. But this oldparadigm of I have to be on the
(45:37):
thirty third floor next to a secretarialpool just doesn't cut it anymore. Unfortunately.
Yeah, it's really, really,very very fascinating for me to see
how this is going to play out. And as you say, there's no
easy answers, and there's a lotof complexity in this. And I also
agree with you you talk about thismoving away from mandating a return to the
(45:59):
office to making the experience compelling,and you've mentioned this a little bit here,
but this is something that I'm watchingmore and more organizations start to focus
on recognizing we can't just say youbut because I said so, you have
to come in because I said so. Yeah, Well, the best talent
and that's who the companies want cango wherever they want to go. That's
where we really need to boil itdown to is we're not talking. You
(46:21):
know, we all want the besttalent, and it's really they're calling the
shots. And so what what Ido find is if you peel to different
drivers in them, different sides ofthem, you can actually you can get
them interested. And we do wantto have experiences, We want to play,
we want to bond, we wantto you know, have pep rallies
(46:43):
kind of really a fort mentality anda bonding mentality. So our own for
our own offices, we've turned themmuch more into forts where people can come
and get you get away from workinghome, you know, and actually come
and connect. But we have aten year cycle here we're going to have
to worry about. And it's notjust downtown environments, because we all will
(47:06):
inherit these problems. Yeah, somereally big, hairy problems like you talk
about in your book, you know, fall some of the revenues from the
local tax base can be lowered,undesirable activities including crime, vagrancy, loitering,
and graffiti will increase. So itis a massive problem, it really
(47:27):
is. And so then I lookat again as I'm thrown to is,
well, what can we do aboutthat? And I liked what you wrote
about in terms of the potential repurposingof central business districts. Yeah, the
secret to any type of urban districtor downtown environment is to have a built
in base of people. And thebuilt in base can become residents, it
(47:49):
can become universities, it become laboratories, it can become any number of things.
But the key is you have tohave a built in base. And
you know the history of cities,what I find interesting is that they were
much more service oriented and that wehad local shops that served our needs and
local things that we really really valuedin living those places. And then we
(48:12):
somehow turned cities into these giant,kind of rich places that are over the
top theme penthouse places, and thereforethey stop becoming functional and local. And
I think we have to get backto that. Even service retail as opposed
to theme park retail, but serviceretail with residents, with universities nearby can
(48:34):
do a lot for a city becausethen you build in a quality of life
with a built in base of peoplethat then start to kind of civilize the
place and really kind of keep itup, keep it from falling into apathy.
Apathy is the word I worry aboutthe most. Yes, me too.
Once a place becomes apathetic, itis very hard to turn it around.
(48:54):
Not impossible, but it's very difficult. Agreed. And on that note,
we we have to close. We'recoming to the close. So I
want to say thank you Kevin forwriting this beautiful book, sharing with the
world, for coming out of theprogram, and sharing with my listeners and
viewers across the globe. You area gift well, doctor Lees, thank
you so much. I am soimpressed with what you do, your books,
(49:16):
your language. I think I'd liketo interview you because you have so
much knowledge that would help me.So thank you for having me. I
would be delighted. We'll talk further. Of course, listeners and viewers,
you're going to want to learn moreabout Kevin Kelly, the work he and
news team do at Shook Kelly andlook further into his book. So you've
got a couple places to go.Their professional site is shook Kelly. Let
(49:37):
me spell that for you s hO O K K E l l e
y dot com. And then hispersonal site is Kevin Ervin Kelly dot com.
So Kevin k E v I nIrvin e r v I n Kelly
k E l l e y Kevinerwin Kelly dot com. That's the site
for the book. Site for thebook. Okay, last week, you
(50:00):
miss the live show, you canalways catch it be a recorded podcast.
We were on the air with doctorAndre Martin, a fellow organizational psychologist,
talking about his book Wrong Fit,Right Fit, How the way we work
matters more than ever. He gaveus some tremendous insights into how individual talent
can seek and find work environments thatbest suit them, and how companies can
showcase their actual day to day experiencesrather than their aspirational wand to encourage a
(50:22):
better fit right from the start.Next week will be on the air with
Todd Davis. He's a senior consultantand thought leader at Franklin Covey, talking
about how to navigate difficult conversations,not that any of us have those.
See you there and remember work asone of the best adventures and means of
realizing our potential and making the impactwe crave. So let's work on Purpose.
(50:44):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working
on Purpose featuring your host, doctorElise Cortes, each week on W four
C Why. Together, We'll createa world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership
inspires and passion performance and employees arefulfilled in work that provides the meaning and
purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
The topics and opinions express in thefollowing show are solely those of the hosts
and their guests and not those ofW FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates.
We make no recommendations or endorsements forradio show programs, services, or
products mentioned on air or on ourweb. No liability, explicit or implied
shall be extended to W FOURCY Radioor its employees are affiliates. Any questions
or comments should be directed to thoseshow hosts. Thank you for choosing W
(00:21):
FOURCY Radio. What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the
answer to this question. People achefor meaning and purpose at work, to
contribute their talents passionately and know theirlives really matter. They crave being part
of an organization that inspires them andhelps them grow into realizing their highest potential.
(00:45):
Business can be such a force forgood in the world, elevating humanity.
In our program, we provide guidanceand inspiration to help usher in this
world we all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor Elise
Cortez. Welcome back to the Workingand Purpose Program, which has been brought
(01:07):
to you with passion and pride sinceFebruary of twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning
in again this week. Great tohave you. I'm your host, doctor
Elise Cortes. If we've not metbefore and you don't know me, I'm
an organizational psychologist and logo therapist,speaker and author. My team and I
at Gusto Now help companies to enlivenand fortify their operations by articulating their purpose
and building inspirational leaders and cultures activatedby meeting and purpose to turn those companies
(01:30):
from a flatline EKG to a vibrantdestination workplace. There people are intrinsically motivated
to perform with their best, cangrow into the fuller potential, and are
committed to stay and dynamically deliver onthe company's mission. You can learn more
about us and how we can worktogether at gustodashnow dot com and my personal
website, Atlascortes dot com. Nowgetting into today's program, we have with
(01:51):
us today Kevin Kelly, who's anaward winning architect, experienced designer and co
founder of the bicoastal strategic design firmSHUK. Kelly as a lifelong advocate of
bringing people together in pro social settings. Kevin's expertise is in studying how the
environment of a place affects our behavior, perception, and decision making. Since
opening their firms stores in nineteen ninetytwo, he has worked with executive leadership
(02:15):
teams from some of the world's mostwell known brands such as Harley Davidson,
Whole Foods, Craft, J M. Schmucker, the Cleveland Orchestra, professional
sports teams, universities, urban districts, and hundreds of local and regional businesses
to stay relevant and profitable and arerapidly changing modern landscape. He's the author
of Irreplaceable, How to create extraordinaryPlaces that bring people together, which is
(02:38):
what we're talking about today. Hejudges today from Los Angeles, Kevin,
A hearty welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank you so much. It's a
pleasure to be here. It's wonderfulto have you. I really terribly enjoy
devouring this beautiful book you brought intothe world. It's just gorgeous. And
as you're welcome, and as Iwas saying to you before we got on
air, in the nine years ofbeen hosting this program, you are the
(03:00):
first and only architect I've had onthat's exciting. I think that's good,
and it says a lot about howour profession is evolving. Indeed, indeed,
and you know, as an organizationalpsychologist and just somebody who's quite quite
passionate about helping people to step intotheir shine. As I like to say,
(03:21):
I was delighted at the way thatyou tell us in your book about
how you discovered your passion and yourcraft at such a really young age.
And so let's open the conversation withyou sharing just that those early days of
what you threw yourself into that laterled you into becoming an architect. I'd
(03:42):
never met an architect before, Ididn't know one, but at age six,
I knew that's what I wanted todo. I do remember seeing a
set of blueprints one time that myfather had laid out on the dining room
table, and if you've seen architecturaldrawings, they have all these little leader
lines with notes and on the side. I didn't know what any of that
meant or said, but it lookedlike the answer to universe to me.
(04:05):
But my real desire for it wasI was overwhelmingly observant of human beings.
I would watch how people knocked onthe door, put the key in the
door, even put ice cubes ina glass. I didn't really love this
ability to observe. It was kindof a neurosis. But I started figuring
(04:29):
out how to turn it into propellerfor my life and started moving forward.
And the thing I was most interestedin were environments where people seemed to get
along, and when I saw peoplefighting or intense. I had certain things
happening as a childhood and during mychildhood that scared me. And I was
probably going sixty pounds and I wastrying to figure out what I could do.
(04:51):
I couldn't fight anyone, but Icould go turn the lights down,
I could put the right music on, I could move the furniture around,
and I noticed it made a difference. And once I started doing it at
home, I started doing my friend'shouses at school, and then I needed
a bigger playing field. So architecturebecame that kind of focus for me.
(05:13):
Most architects aren't interested in behavior,though I should say they're mostly interested in
making objects kind of visual and aesthetics. And I'm fixated on behavior, on
how environment of X behavior. Ithink that's a stunning way to open Kevin
and listeners and viewers, Whether firstif you're a parent or would like to
be a parent, I really wouldlike you to pay attention to this and
(05:34):
just I really think there's such valuein being able to go discover who your
child is and then help them finda way to make that work in the
world, and just go looking withcuriosity. I would have loved to have
been your parent watching this, Kevin. And I know you, yeah,
go ahead. I know you havea young daughter of your own and that
you're also delighting in which is wonderful. And you were going to say something
(05:55):
else, well, I think forwhat it's worth, because I try to
advise a lot of young people outthere, and I find people far too
often pursue what quote makes them happy, and I really believe you need to
kind of focus on what makes youmad and what upsets you, what you're
willing to stand up for. Iexaggerate for effect, but I often say,
(06:18):
what would you cut another person's earoff over? And it's a joke,
But I read a story one timeabout Peter O'Toole wanting to fight everyone
when he realized he wanted to bean actor and they didn't read their lines
right. I get that, andfor me, it's not politics. It's
not education, although I love thosetopics. For me, it was odd
(06:41):
things, the way a room wasset up, the way a restaurant operated,
and I would observe these behaviors inme, and you can physically feel
it, the hair rise on theback of your neck when something upsets you.
And so I started to lean intothat and pursue that, and I
tell my friends, I'm like,doubt that territory. It's more of a
broad, fuzzy territory at first,But just keep pursuing that about what you'd
(07:05):
be willing to fight for because you'lldo that for free, and that's so
much easier than having to do somethingthat you've got to constantly motivate yourself to
do. That's really interesting advice,Kevin. I quite align with that.
We look at where does the Wheredoes does the world break your heart?
Is another way that we look atit. From you to the purpose Spanish
(07:26):
point beautiful. I like that.Yeah. The other thing that I wanted
to echo to your opening of howyou got into this is for leaders now
since we talked to for parents,is I really want leaders to also incourage
I want to encourage them to golooking for this on their teams. What's
that weird, strange way that Sallydoes this thing with the way she plans
for meetings. What's that that waythat Wayne always seems to want to go
(07:48):
about problem solving. Go looking forthat and then just see if there's a
way to be able to unleash that. So it's amazing what happens when people
feel seen and you give them away chance to be able to play as
only they can play. So you'veunleashed that force already, Kevin, just
in your share, So thank you, You're welcome. You're welcome. And
(08:09):
then I just because I'm a partof what I've done in my life in
my career has been a meaning andwork researcher, and so many people ache
for meaning in their lives and theirwork. I thought the way that you
describe how what your work means toyou just needed to be shared as well.
What does your work mean to you? It's everything? I mean.
I don't think we're all wired tobe so fixated in an environment. I
(08:33):
some think some people are fixated theway things sound or the way things feel.
But I'm certainly wired to look athow building shape or behavior, and
you know, I Oftentimes hear peopletalk about saying they're in an environment,
but I don't think we look atthe environment being in us just as much
as food is in us. Andif you eat junk food or candy or
(08:56):
bad food all the time, it'llaffect your health and the quality of your
life. And I believe the samewith environments. And I am shocked at
the number of people with money orcities with money, that live in bad
places that stunt their growth, hurttheir businesses, and threaten their livelihoods.
(09:16):
And I want it to stop,you know. So this is part of
the reason why I wrote the book. My profession hasn't necessarily solved the problem,
and that so much of their workis around kind of intellectualizing design on
some you know, art abstract level, and then we have this kind of
utilitarian approach. But there's a wholelot more room in between that to really
(09:39):
make the quality of life and thequality of our environments a lot better for
our kids, for our businesses,for our main streets or our homes,
and for our local stores. Andwe're going to talk more about obviously you
know what that means, especially forthe workplace. Since the show is focused
on that realm. Though, beforewe do that, I do think it's
interesting that you say in your bookthat you really really made quite a place
(10:01):
for yourself in designing things like aroundgrocery stores, convenience stores, pad stores,
gyms, restaurants, bars. Whythose particular places. Yeah, it's
kind of an odd thing. AsI, you know, we discussed earlier.
I was so observant about everyday places, the post office, the department,
(10:22):
motor vehicles, grocery stores, peoplestanding in line. And when I
went to architecture school, everything wasso focused on operas and orchestra halls and
you know, beautiful houses and aspsand churches and other facilities. And while
those are great and I really enjoyedthose, I couldn't understand why we weren't
(10:43):
solving the everyday places. Why dodry cleaners have to be so bad and
convenience stores have to be so threateningand harsh, like almost like an airport
tarmac? Yeah yeah. And thenI started dealing with the leader of those
entities, and they tend to behyper rationalist, utilitary and efficiency focused individuals
who make a really compelling case whydesign has no place and their places.
(11:09):
But then I started going I thinkit does, so I have to prove
that environment effects behavior and ultimately sales. So I set myself out on a
mission with my colleagues, my businesspartner Terry Shook, who's my mentor,
great architect, and others to reallysay, how can we change these everyday
places? And a word we useis extraordinary, and we break that word
(11:33):
down into extraordinary. How do wetake those everyday places and make them better?
That's so beautiful as someone who reallydoes respond what we all do.
As you know, but I'm maybenot nearly as aware of it as you
are. But when I walk intoa place that makes me, that delights
(11:56):
me. For example, there's aplace here in Dallas called The Finch that's
pretty new on mar you can bringseventy five and do you know it.
I've heard about that. I wasjust in Dallas two weeks ago. I
would love to hear your opinion onit. For me. When I walk
into that place, Kevin, itjust automatically lifts me. It's beautiful,
so it pulls me up. Itinvites me to play with food and drink
(12:18):
in a different way. Fascinating.I've heard about it, I haven't seen
it, but I will tell youthis that the thing that I mean,
we all know something that others don'tknow, and it's great when somebody can
give you some insights and how wefunction as people and work in society.
And the thing that I really spentmy life understanding is how our senses affect
(12:41):
our behavior, our mood, ourperception of places, and not only intellectually,
but biologically and socially. And whenyou walk into a place that feels
good, it's almost always starting withyour senses first, and we could break
down each of those senses into what'shappening, but those places create a kind
(13:03):
of visual harmony and a social listand a feeling of safety. And when
I say safety, that's physically,socially and emotionally. And when you get
in those kind of forums and they'restimulating your senses, it's so invigorating for
us. And that's when memories aremade. You know, during the pandemic,
when people were staying home, theylost all sense of time because they
(13:26):
kind of hit a cognitive impairment ofjust the same old place in and out,
and they couldn't remember their memories well, because memories are generally differentiated through
the places we're in. If wethink back to all our great memories.
We imagine being on that dock,or on that island, or in that
restaurant. We all remember where weproposed or where we are one of our
(13:46):
relatives was born. There's something reallypowerful about memory and place, and it's
those types of things that really makea place feel great. And so I'm
always looking for those types of behaviorswhen I see people entering that social bliss
and that social harmony. And ifI could extend this idea a little further,
(14:09):
as human beings, we like toget in sync with other people.
That's what's so powerful about a movie. You know, where we generally walk
around pretty defensive, we suppress ouremotions because we always have to appear like
we're in control. But when wego to a dark room theater with a
bunch of strangers, we can cry, we can laugh, we can scream
(14:30):
around them because the movie does sucha good job of breaking those barriers down
and eliciting those really powerful emotions,which are therapeutic for us. Right,
who would think crying is good?But it's very good. I would,
I know, yeah you would.And so when you go to a place
that feels good and you walk aroundand you stroll hand in hand, and
(14:52):
you see other people and you feellike it's okay to say hi or to
talk to a stranger. That makesus feel really good. We're cooperative species,
and when we feel like everybody aroundus is cooperating and we're all together
and we have a sense of belongingand synchronicity, it's very powerful, and
it's really lacking in our current era. We spend up to seven eight hours
(15:13):
a day in front of a screenthat is having a significant impact on our
ability to relate to others and tofeel that social connection. Indeed, I
completely agree, and that's why Ithought there were so many things about your
book that you wrote about that Iwere wholly unanticipated, like this all that
we've been talking about so far,and more to come. On that note,
(15:35):
let us take our first break.I'm your host, Doctorlie's Cortes.
We've on the earth Kevin Kelly.He's the author of Irreplaceable, How to
Create Extraordinary Places that bring People Together. We've been talking a bit about where
his original ideas came from, whythey're important to us as human beings,
and really how we can live amore vibrant life when we pay attention to
place and do something to actually stewardit the way that we like. We're
(16:00):
going to talk about this new multidisciplinaryfield that he and his team has created
called convening. Stay with us,we'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortes
(16:22):
is a management consultant specializing in meaningand purpose. An inspirational speaker and author,
she helps companies visioneer for greater purposeamong stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership
and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce.
To learn more or to invite alease to speak to your organization,
please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your
(16:47):
employees working on purpose. This isworking on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes.
To reach our program today or toopen a conversation with Elise, send an
email to a lease a LISEE ateliscortes dot com. Now back to working
on purpose. Thanks for staying withus, and welcome back to working on
(17:15):
Purpose. I'm your host, doctorElise Cortes, as I too, am
dedicated to helping create a world wherepeople realize their potential at work and are
led by inspirational leaders that help themfind and contribute their greatness, and we
do business at Betters the World.I keep researching and writing my own books.
So the latest one came out inMarch of twenty twenty three. It's
called The Great Revitalization. How activatingmeeting and Purpose can radically enliven your business.
(17:37):
And I wrote it to help readersunderstand the lay of today's workforce,
what they really want to thrive,and then I offer twenty two best practices
to help equip you in your cultureand leadership to provide that for them.
You can learn more about my booksat a lasecoretes dot com or find them
on Amazon if you are just joiningme today. My guest is Kevin Kelly.
He's an award winning architect, experiencedesigner and conder of the bi Coastal
(18:00):
Strategic firm Shook Kelly. So Iwas quite intrigued. There were so many
things about your book that I,like I said, did not expect and
was delighted by. And one ofthem is this notion of this new multidisciplinary
field you and your team have createdcalled convening. Let's talk about that.
Yes, my business partner and Iwere. You know, we're thinking a
(18:25):
lot about language and our team andI are extremely observant about the words people
use, the jokes they tell youwere talking earlier about organizations and helping team
members. Well, when we interviewpeople, we are beyond focused on where
they sit, if they cross theirlegs or not, what kind of drinks
they put in their hand, theirpens, their notepads. We're looking for
(18:48):
cues and triggers, and it reallyhelps us understand underneath each leader or each
team member, what they're feeling andwhat big ideas they have. Because we're
so observant to language, we wouldlisten to the way people would talk about
places. They would use words likearchitecture, which tended to have a high
brow kind of sound to it,or they would talk about facilities, which
(19:10):
tended to be very utilitarian. Youwould hear other words out there. But
we started thinking about this idea ofhow it could be bigger and more meaningful
than the kind of old habitual waysI guess habitualays we talk about place,
and so we started thinking about whatare we just trying to attract people like,
(19:30):
no, we want more than that. Are we trying to gather them
we said, well, we likethat, but we want to convene them
around an idea, a big idea, say in the Harley Davidson world.
We want to convene them around freedom, rebellion and kind of stick it to
the man idea. You know,we were looking something powerful, and then
we not only want that idea,we want this forum to have a kind
(19:52):
of structure and experience that impacts you, that leads an indelible endprint on you.
Again, most of this is subconscious. You know it when you feel
it, but it's not something thatyou reflect on a lot other than a
great memory of it. So conveningreally helped us help these help our clients
understand the greater power of their place. I just especially, and we'll talk
(20:17):
more about this as we go,but just really fixated today, of course,
not just on where we live anddwell and visit and play, but
where do we do our work.And that's something we'll talk about later.
I thinking about making it more acompelling place to convene. It just fascinates,
so we'll get there. But oneof the other things that you said
that I thought was really worth discussing, and something that I too find myself
(20:41):
shall we say disgusted by I don'tknow if you are or not, but
I am. But you talk abouthow there's this fixation on ease and efficiency
technology. You're supposed to make thingsfaster and better and easier and all these
sort of things. But then yousay, shouldn't some things in life require
effort? Yeah, there's this thiswhole attack on anything inefficient, and you
(21:04):
hear the tech titans constantly talk aboutit. You hear Wall Street talk about
it, and the spreadsheet driven folksjust constantly talking about ruthless efficiency. It's
almost a prideful thing that they bragabout. And I start, you know,
they keep saying, well, youcan use chat GPT to write a
love letter, And I'm like,well, shouldn't I write a love letter?
(21:26):
Shouldn't I actually make it? Andyou can send a text message instead
of buying a card? And I'musing those as exaggerative examples. But we
have a tendency as humans to notwant to do things, and we get
resistant, and we get kind ofheavy in our seats, you know,
we get heavy on the couch andwe don't want to go out. But
(21:48):
I can almost guarantee you every timeyou go out and go into the world.
You have such a great opportunity toexpand your mind, to activate your
senses, to meet somebody. IfI think about all the changes in my
life, I met my wife inan airport baggage claim on a trip that
I debated about going to, andit completely changed my life. I mean
(22:08):
everything about my life. And tothis day, my wife and I lay
in bed and go can you believewe met in baggage claim. It's that
trip I would have never met her. And so there is this kind of
force out there that wants to keepus at home and our pajamas, binge
watching Netflix, ordering our food inAnd yes, that's easier, but it's
(22:30):
kind of dangerous for us. It'sdangerous for us personally, socially, civilly.
We need to get out and meetthe other and to interact just as
much as we need to walk andmove our body. I align with that,
Kevin, because as a logo therapist, what we know is that we
in logo therapy. For those ofyou who don't know what that is,
it's or logo philosophy is really it'sabout healing through meaning. But what we
(22:53):
know about human beings is that weneed a certain tension in our lives to
be vital. That tension between whowe are today and what we're striving for
tomorrow or in the next moment.There's that reaching that you're really talking about
that we need. Otherwise we becomeapathetic and we start to atrophy, which
is what you were talking about.Yes, yeah, And I just worry
(23:15):
that we are getting more and morethis way. And what I've noticed among
my friends, my colleagues, evenmyself, is this tendency to go.
I got to put on clothes,I got to put on a tie,
I got to go to this event, And we're all developing a form of
social anxiety. Yet every time Ido that, something great happens. And
(23:37):
I just can't encourage people enough todon't let that kind of gravity pull you
down, because you're just going tobecome a lemming. And we all remember
that film Wally and there were peoplefloating around a lot, you lazy boys,
having all their drinks and their legsand their knees didn't work because they
hadn't used them. They couldn't pushbuttons. We're not that far from that,
(24:00):
yeah, we really are. Andwe're growing generations of kids that don't
go out. Yeah, not thatwe want to focus on this, but
I heard statistic that one billion peoplein the across the world are now considered
obese. Yes, so yes,we are getting there. We are getting
there. So let's move on tomore and more interesting or enlivening things than
(24:26):
what important things to talk about.But I was very also intrigued with your
whole bonfire effect idea, Kevin.We've got to talk about that. Sure,
yeah, I you know, Iwon't try to play myself as some
intellectual that grew up, you know, around some glorious environment. I grew
up in the swamps in South Florida. There wasn't a lot to do off
(24:49):
a dirt road, and the weekendswere well. During the week we built
vehicles that look like something out ofmad Max vehicles, airboats and buggies and
four wheel drives, and we allwent out into the six miles out into
the Everglades to a big kind ofredneck river air a mound of dirt in
the middle of the swamps. Andwe came from different high schools in different
(25:11):
places, and we did this everyweekend. It was a ritual, and
nobody sent out a notice because wedidn't have notices back then, but we
knew that's where to be. Andwe also knew how to organize ourselves.
To build a bonfire. A bunchof strangers put a whole bonfire together,
and then they would, you know, the bonfire master would set the thing
(25:33):
a blaze and get just the perfectglow, not too big and not too
small, and it would create thiskind of magical enchantment where everybody got along.
And Carl Jung called this participation mistique. He said, this is when
there's something happening underneath our consciousness thatunites us. It goes back to that
social synchronicity I mentioned. And whenI left the swamps and ended up going
(25:56):
to college and eventually at Arburn myself. I saw bonfires everywhere. I see
them on Rodeo Drive, I seethem on Fifth Avenue. I see them
in you know, Minnesota and Oklahoma. They're everywhere. And I'm very intrigued
with when do people come together andcreate that social harmony and that social connection.
(26:18):
And so a lot of companies havechief brand officers, which oftentimes becomes
more about economics or just promotions,and I'm more interested in what brings people
together around that idea, that form, and that experience, and who's tending
to that flame, because we allknow brands that get too big, the
bonfire gets too big and chases everybodyoff, or they die down and kind
(26:41):
of dwindle and don't really have thatpower to bring us together anymore. Imagine
if Sears had a bonfire master asopposed to a financial engineer figuring out how
to sell private equity. I thinkit would be a wildly different store if
they had a bonfire what do youcall it? On fire? Well,
(27:03):
on fire master. So I advocateto my clients that they create a chief
bonfire master, and that they createa regular functioning group of people who tend
to the flame of that of theirplace to protect its livelihood. It's vitality,
its strength, it's magic glow,and we measure that. We measure
it through a tendance and engagement,experimentation and socialization. Of course, ultimately
(27:27):
with sales. You know what's interestingabout that to me, Kevin, just
quickly that relates to it for me, as what you're really speaking to is
is somebody inside of the organization that'sreally I don't know, stewarding well the
health and the heartbeat of the organization. For sure, it's flame. But
to me that reminds me of whatyou do, or maybe I don't know
(27:48):
if you still do this. Itreally did delight me to know that,
you know, the way that youhave continued to sharpen your own saw and
develop your craft is you know,you're the guy that sits out in parking
lots and the you know, thefolding chair and watches people come in and
out of stores and I think along every week. It's delightful. You
(28:10):
had to confess this to your wife, Yes, I did, and you
know, every day she'd see megoing to work and she'd go, why
are you wearing that? And I'mlike, I just want to blend in
and because I'm going to all differenttypes of environments and I go and just
become an eavesdropper and a lawyer,a professional lawyer, and I just watch
(28:33):
and observe people. And you know, I've been doing this thirty one years
as my own company, and Iwhenever I go to these places, I
don't know what I'm going to find, and that would normally give me an
anxiety. You know, it givesmy staff an anxiety sometimes. And I'm
like, we're just going to sithere until we start seeing anomalies, patterns
(28:53):
and trends. And sometimes that'll happenin one hour. Sometimes it'll happen in
a week. And I help myclients because they're always looking for breakthroughs and
they're like, you, how doyou come up with them? And I'm
like, deviations to the norm.If I see people coming in and everybody's
wearing the same sock, there's somethingto it. Or everybody's driving the same
(29:14):
type of car, everybody's buying thesame type of product. That is a
clue that gets me in deeper.And I will keep mining that seam until
we hit upon the breakthrough we need. So anybody ever come over up to
you and say, what are youdoing? I mean you've been sitting here,
I mean for two hours or threehours? Anybody ever do that?
Yeah? I tell the story brieflyin the book about Ernie the tow truck
(29:37):
driver Harley Davidson. So, oh, yes, you're doing it so fun?
Yes, And so Ernie was agreat guy, and I loved Ernie,
and you know, if I coulddeviate there. The great ritual was
when you go to Harley Store,everybody kind of circles the interior and watches
other people get on bikes and gripit, and people do exactly the same
thing. They look down at theengine, they pull the handle, and
(30:00):
somebody eventually says to them, Theygo, what do you think? And
they have a whole conversation around that. And that would be odd that ritual
at a Banana Republic store if hesaid, what do you think of that
sweater? You going to buy it? You know, we would call the
police. But in Harley store isperfectly normal. And Ernie and I became,
(30:21):
you know, friends, and Iwas just really learning a lot about
them. But I went to anotherstore about an hour and a half away
the next day and lo and behold, Ernie was there. And my staff
started freaking o O, oh,my gosh, Ernie's there. And I'm
like, yeah, what am wegoing to do? So I went up
to Ernie and accused him of followingme. I said, Hey, what
are you doing? You following me? And he said no, No,
(30:42):
I go to different Harley stores everyday because I like to just hang out
and I feel like if I'm notbuying stuff, they're going to make me
leave. That was exactly the insight. I needed my team and I started
focusing on They're like, why doesthe store make you feel like you have
to leave? So then we starteddesigning the stores with bonfires and cafes and
(31:03):
gathering spots and saying why don't youcome here anytime you want? Because everywhere
else, Ernie didn't feel like ahero. He said the funniest thing,
he said, you know, Ineed six pack abs and a MacBook Pro
to go hang out at Soul Cycleor Blue Bottle Coffee goes. But in
this store, I'm a hero.And that was everything I needed to know.
(31:26):
And I get those kind of anomaliesby listening to people talk. I
said it early, but oftentimes jokesare where they really tell me the truth.
Because Ernie said one line and ourdiscussion he said, he said,
yeah, this is a place formidlife is Christ, midlife crisis, males
fading and strength. It told usvolumes everything we needed to kind of start
(31:51):
focusing on. Oh too bad weonly get an hour together. Kevin,
You're delightful and so much. No, it was lightful, was terrific.
I don't apologize for being brilliant.Let's grab our next break here. I'm
your host doctor Release Cortez, whogoing on air with Kevin Kelly. He's
the author of Irreplaceable, How toCreate Extraordinary Places that bring People Together.
(32:13):
You've heard him talk about some ofhis things that he is fixated on over
the years, including the bonfire effectand convening after the work. We're going
to devote that segment to really focusedon being focused on the work versus payoff
ratio of place and how we canreally look at our physical our environment in
the workplace. Stay with us,We'll be right back. Doctor Release Cortez
(32:50):
is a management consultant specializing in meaningand purpose. An inspirational speaker and author.
She helps companies visioneer for greater purposeamong stakeholders and developed purpose inspired leadership
and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce.
To learn more or to invite Eliseto speak to your organization, please
visit her at Elisecortes dot com.Let's talk about how to get your employees
(33:15):
working on purpose. This is workingon purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To
reach our program today or to opena conversation with Elise, send an email
to Elise Alise at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.
(33:40):
Thanks for staying with us, andwelcome back to Working on Purpose. I'm
your host, doctor Elise Cortes.As I mentioned in the last break that
my latest book came out in Marchof twenty twenty three, The Great Revitalization.
What I did for you is Icreated a three page organizational assessment for
best practices to help you gauge theextent to which your current operations are meeting
the desires standards of today's workforce.You can find it at gustodashnout dot com
(34:04):
if you are now just joining us. My guest is Kevin Kelly. He's
an award winning architect, experience designerand co founder of the bicoastal strategic design
firm Shook Kelly. So this wholeidea here, I've been very, very
very intrigued that part of what Iwrote about it in The Great Vialization is
how vastly things have changed since thepandemic and such, and how people have
elevated their consciousness to recognize what morethey really want from life and the work
(34:30):
revolution. You use the word revolutionin your book that's occurred. So let's
talk about this notion of what youtalk what you call the work versus payoff
of police. Yes, you know, I'll try to make this quick,
but the you know, all overour country, for hundreds of years,
people participate in the American dream ofsetting up businesses and car washes and barbershops
(34:54):
and small cafes and pubs and bars. But since two thousand and seven,
when we had the iPhone come outand the kind of adoption, mass adoption
of social media and online paying,less and less people started visiting place and
places started dying kind of death bythousand cuts because they can't afford to give
(35:15):
up ten to twenty percent of theirbusiness. And yet these people are calling
me to save them and save theirplaces. And when I try to study
how they were competing, they weretrying to emulate the online businesses that focused
on price, variety and convenience andruthless efficiency. And up until that point,
really stores, local shops, localplaces were the only places you could
(35:38):
get things done and get goods.But in this new world, you can
get stuff from China, you canget stuff from into you can get stuff
anywhere in the world. And anybodywith a computer and a garage or even
a smartphone and a you know,on a side of a road can set
up a business. And so it'svery difficult to compete on that and that
contest. So I get my clientsout of that race and like stop competing
(36:00):
on price, writing, convenience,and start convening on other aspects social bliss,
harmony, connection, discovery, adventure. And so when we look at
going to a place versus ordering onlinefrom our pjs at home, to go
to a place, I've got toget dressed up, brush my teeth,
comb hair, getting a car,fine parking, going and building. That's
(36:21):
work and it's irritating, and alot of companies aren't really focused on that
because they're focused on that price,variety, convenience. To MENSI, well,
what I want them to focus onis really making the payoff higher than
the work. They need to workon the work aspect, but they also
need to work on the payoff,and those payoffs are normally emotional and social,
(36:42):
often physical too. There are physicalpayoffs you can get from going to
a place. So whenever we areevaluating a place, the first thing we
do is really break down what arethe aspects that humans would consider work and
what are the aspects humans would considera payoff. And I'm giving you the
short answer of that, Yes,I know, and I appreciate that,
which is just because we it goesby so fast. One thing that I
(37:07):
became very aware of, Kevin,you just said that to so in such
an enlarging way, is how experiencebecame such an important criteria, especially after
the pandemic. People people were searchingfor and wanted experiences, rich experiences,
connective experiences. And so, ofcourse, you know, in my world,
a lot of what I do iseither consulting, speaking, workshops,
(37:31):
et cetera. So the difference betweendoing that via Zoom and in person is
about three and a half worlds topart. Now, Yeah, yeah,
I mean I every time I haveto, I have a choice go visit
my client, do the presentation,or do it on Zoom. Every time
I go visit them, it's alot of work, it's a lot of
(37:51):
expense. The meetings are just somuch deeper, better, the connection stronger,
and the ideas are richer. Wheneverwe do it on Zoom, it
is a lot more efficient, andwe just don't hit that level. Now.
I'm not suggesting we get rid ofthat because it is a useful tool,
but we need to save room inour lives for those connections. We
need to at least do some ofthat in our life. I completely agree
(38:14):
with that. Yes, and evenjust I want to recognize something, Kevin,
about you, even just the qualityof your voice has got such a
it's such a rich sort of it'svelvety. It's a velvety voice. I
hate my voice, but that makesme happy to hear that. I can't
listen to myself talk. Have youheard that before, that it's velvety.
(38:34):
Yes, my wife and one ofmy friend's advisors tells me that. But
but I really appreciate that. Ifeel like I sounds like a guy with
pebbles and whiskey in his mouth.Well it works, It works for me,
and that's my favorite. That's myfavorite sense, Kevin. So just
let's just go with it. Powerful. Speaking of sense, I did want
(38:59):
to go a little bit deeper.You have a whole chapter on making sense
of place that and I know you'veyou've already talked a bit about the importance
of our century experience, our centuryinteraction action with places that we go.
But what else would you like tohelp us understand about this notion of making
sense of place. Yeah, weyou know, there's a famous joke that
(39:22):
older fish asks the underfish house thewater, and the younger fish says,
what's water? Right? Kind ofhave that sense about our lives. We're
not really aware that we're in anenvironment. And as I said earlier,
that environments in us. And sowhen we get up in the morning and
we walk to our office or tothe coffee shop, we don't actually have
(39:43):
a walking plan. Our brain automaticallymakes those decisions. We also don't tell
our eyes where to go. Ourinvoluntary eyes go where they want to go,
and our involuntary sound mechanisms listen towhat they want to listen to.
Now, those aren't random things.Your brain and your body have been hardwired
pay attention to the things that willenhance life and be aware of those things
(40:04):
that could act as impediments or threatsto your life. Well, those same
skills are brought into restaurants, grocerystores, shopping malls, even the office.
And so if you become knowledgeable inhow the senses work and how we
comprehend our world, you'll have amuch greater understanding of how humans behave and
understanding what they do. Even ourlanguage, you know, we constantly talk
(40:27):
about people in terms of being slickor rough on the edges, or hard
headed. These are physical qualities thatwe put into our language, and our
language is based on those metaphors.So it's really important that we study the
senses. But the senses are notstudied in business school, nor in design
school, and none of the retailersor restaurants are learning about the senses.
(40:47):
So therefore, you walk in thebathroom and it looks horrible, and then
you think the food is bad orit smells bad. And I can't tell
the number of clients that have terriblebathrooms that are like, what's the big
deal, And I'm like, getthe bathroom right, and then you'll sell
more seafood. And then they havea hard time believing that. But I'm
like, it is the number onecriteria people base your cleanliness on and the
(41:08):
health of your place. So oursenses are just so powerful and hardwired,
and they've been that way since weevolved as a species. You know,
speaking of the whole toilet issue,Kevin I redusted at someplace that one of
the big reasons that people don't wantto come to work in the office.
(41:28):
Yes, the bathroom experience. Yeah, yeah, this gets back to our
our weakening socialization skills. You know, we're getting really conscientious about everything,
and imagine Instagram on top of this, heightening up this need to be perfect
right and not really showing the unsavoryparts of our lives or what now is
(41:50):
being deemed as unsavory and used tojust be normal. But these are things
that I think we have to workin getting over right. We have to
work at getting used to those things, cooperating and being around each other,
and it's never as bad as wethink it is. But yes, you're
right, people, the bathroom isa very intimate issue, and it's a
(42:10):
very personal issue, and it's oneof the things that companies need to get
right. Yeah, yeah, Iagreed. Well I want to go there
next. A couple had a coupleof questions here. But one thing that
you talk about that's really been interestingto me is, you know, the
reinventing office building in today's changed worldof work. I mean, I have
(42:32):
been so as somebody who helps organizationsto shape and their culture. So much
of what I was doing was helpingpeople recognize why do people actually have to
be in the office each day,that they why when they are asking not
to be The resistance to that wasso interesting. But you really have quite
a really compelling chapter or more whereyou're talking about just this notion of that.
(42:58):
You say that you say many standardforms and shapes, such as the
mall, grocery store, and conveniencestore concepts discussed in this book are long
overdue for reinvention. Same goes forthe institution of institutions, of universities,
museums, and performing arts facilities.But the most concerning standard forms and shapes
needing radical reinvention are office buildings andby extension, downtown areas, central business
(43:22):
districts, and urban employment centers.Yeah, there's so much unpack in that,
and I will try not to hitall of it. But let's start
with form in shape. Because ourbrain is operating off a very low wattage,
about a sixty light bulb of powerfrom calories that we take in,
(43:42):
we try to digest the world asbest we can, but we can't scan
everything, and so we look forthe most important aspects again that relate to
enhancement and impediments to life, andso we do something all predictive coding,
and when we recognize what something is, we don't spend any time on it,
which is okay on one level,but it's not great if you're a
department store or a mall or anotherplace trying to break out of an old
(44:06):
stereotype. Malls certainly are trying tobreak out of those stereotypes. And I'll
meet mall developers that say, well, we've banished the word, we never
say mall. But I'm like,but your building still looks like them all.
It's still the form and shape ofthem all. And that's how humans
relate to buildings. So until youchange that form in shape to something different,
you won't get the reaction you want. The office building and the downtowns
(44:30):
are one of the most concerning featuresI see in our current economy because the
attendance is terribly low and it doesn'tappear to be changing, even with mandating
that employees have to come to work. And so the value proposition was set
up under an old paradigm where wehad to be close. And really,
(44:52):
if you think about the word proximity, proximity was how you moved up in
the world. You had to beclose to the movers and shakers, close
to the factories, close to thecourthouse, all of those things that really
helped. Well, now we don'thave to do that. We can be
on a laptop in Tahiti, andso we need to change what are the
values of proximity in different senses.Now, young people, young professionals,
(45:14):
the creative talent oftentimes are single andlooking to connect with others, and so
downtown environments provide a wonderful opportunity toserve as playgrounds and kind of atom smashers
of social identities and social experiences.So that's about the best bet our central
business districts have. But this oldparadigm of I have to be on the
(45:37):
thirty third floor next to a secretarialpool just doesn't cut it anymore. Unfortunately.
Yeah, it's really, really,very very fascinating for me to see
how this is going to play out. And as you say, there's no
easy answers, and there's a lotof complexity in this. And I also
agree with you you talk about thismoving away from mandating a return to the
(45:59):
office to making the experience compelling,and you've mentioned this a little bit here,
but this is something that I'm watchingmore and more organizations start to focus
on recognizing we can't just say youbut because I said so, you have
to come in because I said so. Yeah, Well, the best talent
and that's who the companies want cango wherever they want to go. That's
where we really need to boil itdown to is we're not talking. You
(46:21):
know, we all want the besttalent, and it's really they're calling the
shots. And so what what Ido find is if you peel to different
drivers in them, different sides ofthem, you can actually you can get
them interested. And we do wantto have experiences, We want to play,
we want to bond, we wantto you know, have pep rallies
(46:43):
kind of really a fort mentality anda bonding mentality. So our own for
our own offices, we've turned themmuch more into forts where people can come
and get you get away from workinghome, you know, and actually come
and connect. But we have aten year cycle here we're going to have
to worry about. And it's notjust downtown environments, because we all will
(47:06):
inherit these problems. Yeah, somereally big, hairy problems like you talk
about in your book, you know, fall some of the revenues from the
local tax base can be lowered,undesirable activities including crime, vagrancy, loitering,
and graffiti will increase. So itis a massive problem, it really
(47:27):
is. And so then I lookat again as I'm thrown to is,
well, what can we do aboutthat? And I liked what you wrote
about in terms of the potential repurposingof central business districts. Yeah, the
secret to any type of urban districtor downtown environment is to have a built
in base of people. And thebuilt in base can become residents, it
(47:49):
can become universities, it become laboratories, it can become any number of things.
But the key is you have tohave a built in base. And
you know the history of cities,what I find interesting is that they were
much more service oriented and that wehad local shops that served our needs and
local things that we really really valuedin living those places. And then we
(48:12):
somehow turned cities into these giant,kind of rich places that are over the
top theme penthouse places, and thereforethey stop becoming functional and local. And
I think we have to get backto that. Even service retail as opposed
to theme park retail, but serviceretail with residents, with universities nearby can
(48:34):
do a lot for a city becausethen you build in a quality of life
with a built in base of peoplethat then start to kind of civilize the
place and really kind of keep itup, keep it from falling into apathy.
Apathy is the word I worry aboutthe most. Yes, me too.
Once a place becomes apathetic, itis very hard to turn it around.
(48:54):
Not impossible, but it's very difficult. Agreed. And on that note,
we we have to close. We'recoming to the close. So I
want to say thank you Kevin forwriting this beautiful book, sharing with the
world, for coming out of theprogram, and sharing with my listeners and
viewers across the globe. You area gift well, doctor Lees, thank
you so much. I am soimpressed with what you do, your books,
(49:16):
your language. I think I'd liketo interview you because you have so
much knowledge that would help me.So thank you for having me. I
would be delighted. We'll talk further. Of course, listeners and viewers,
you're going to want to learn moreabout Kevin Kelly, the work he and
news team do at Shook Kelly andlook further into his book. So you've
got a couple places to go.Their professional site is shook Kelly. Let
(49:37):
me spell that for you s hO O K K E l l e
y dot com. And then hispersonal site is Kevin Ervin Kelly dot com.
So Kevin k E v I nIrvin e r v I n Kelly
k E l l e y Kevinerwin Kelly dot com. That's the site
for the book. Site for thebook. Okay, last week, you
(50:00):
miss the live show, you canalways catch it be a recorded podcast.
We were on the air with doctorAndre Martin, a fellow organizational psychologist,
talking about his book Wrong Fit,Right Fit, How the way we work
matters more than ever. He gaveus some tremendous insights into how individual talent
can seek and find work environments thatbest suit them, and how companies can
showcase their actual day to day experiencesrather than their aspirational wand to encourage a
(50:22):
better fit right from the start.Next week will be on the air with
Todd Davis. He's a senior consultantand thought leader at Franklin Covey, talking
about how to navigate difficult conversations,not that any of us have those.
See you there and remember work asone of the best adventures and means of
realizing our potential and making the impactwe crave. So let's work on Purpose.
(50:44):
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working
on Purpose featuring your host, doctorElise Cortes, each week on W four
C Why. Together, We'll createa world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership
inspires and passion performance and employees arefulfilled in work that provides the meaning and
purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.
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