January 21, 2026 • 49 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci recap 'Cubs Convention 2026' celebrating the 10th anniversary of the 2016 Cubs World Series. Joe touches on the some of the conversations he had and how the team coming back together was such a special event. Tom notes the connection this team had with Cubs fans after ending the long drought in Chicago.
Turning to contracts and deals being done, Tom points out the real eye-popping numbers in the Dodgers deal with Kyle Tucker. Is there a shift to high value, shorter term deals? Andruw Jones and Carlos Betran are the newest Hall of Fame members.
Plus, Indiana wins the CFB Championship and Tom asks Joe about the aura of Head Coach Curt Cignetti.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
#fsr
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey There, and welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
It's the Book of Joe Podcasts with Me, Tom Berducci
and back from Chicago, Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
We've got a lot to talk about, Joe.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
We've got Kyle Tucker, We've got Bobus shit, We've got
Hall of Fame voting, lots going on, Luise Robert to
the New York Mets. But I'm going to start with
the big news, and that is Cubs Convention ten year
anniversary of the twenty sixteen world champion Chicago Cubs and
Joe Madden the guest of honor there.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oh, you gotta tell me, Joe, what was that like.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I've been lucky enough to be a Cubs convention on
the quote unquote normal year and it's been awesome.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So tell me give me a sense of the vibe.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It was exaggerated, There's no question about that. First of all,
seeing all the guys again was even better than I
had envisioned. I had so many one on one wonderful
conversations with members of that team. We started out and
in listen, the Cubs did a great job. Great party,
well done, well organized, well Everything started out with a
(01:19):
party like a cocktail hour in our clubhouse, and they
had the clubhouse all decked out. Everybody's uniform was hanging
at their locker. You know, obviously plenty to drink. It
began there and that's where the conversation started. Guys would
just corner you and just want to start talking about
the past and wonderful and bring up different moments and
(01:42):
just revealing their true feelings. It was really quite touching.
And then went into the nineteen fourteen Club and that's
where the food was and the party continued. Nineteen fourteen
Club was right underneath the stands behind Home Played. It's
one of the nicest nightclubs in all of Chicago. So
I went to there and really, this is the first
night again Schwarves with everybody was there but a couple
(02:02):
of guys. I got to see all the dudes and
it was really wonderful to be in their company again. Then,
of course, the next night, Friday night, is the opening ceremony.
After all day long, you go through this myriad of
interviews and uh little spots everywhere, and just everyone wanting
to talk about the guys in the past, and we
(02:23):
did that. But then here comes the introductions, and so
we were the first group, will be the first group.
Uh yeah, we're the first group recognized. We had to
walk out there and the place is going nuts, and
we sit down, and then the regulars come in Today's guys,
and then eventually the real Hall of famers and they
sat in front of us. We were in the second row,
(02:44):
and my god, I mean, you know, I'm sitting next
to Billy. Billy Williams is right there, Jose Cardinal of course,
sut Jody Davis was there, Sean Dunston is.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
It was just a really who's who right.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
In front of us, and it's a big ballroom of
about I don't know, a couple thousand people at least,
and and it just really really well done. So and
then after that, Ryan Dempster's cut his own little version
of the Tonight Show. You sit up there with him
almost like you are on the Tonight Show. Just really
raucously well done, great conversation even it's kind of even
(03:19):
better than you remember, kind of a thing. So I
was really grateful for all that and grateful for that
group of guys, because truly these were charismatic men's men,
men's men kind of baseball players that were really closely knit,
and as much as you knew that from the past,
it was really demonstrated in Chicago during the convention.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Joe, you said something I was most curious about when
you get together some of these guys you haven't seen
for a while. I understand, and you mentioned true feelings. Yeah,
almost a little bit like if you have a high
school reunion. You know you're enough for a move from
maybe a friendship. You haven't seen somebody for a while,
(04:00):
maybe there's something you always wanted to say, or it's
a different perspective with length between you and the event.
This is ten years later. Give me a sense if
you can share something. Was there a story that you
heard from someone that you hadn't heard And again, obviously
you're the manager of this team.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
You know these guys so well. But anything that was
shared with you, or maybe you shared with somebody else
that you were like that man is really cool both ways.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
You know, I really don't want to reveal because there
are really personal conversations, but let me say that they were.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Validation of how I did things among the group.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
You know, you do things. You win a World series
and win world championship and you do whatever you do,
and it's a pretty wonderful moment. But then if you
move the clock ten years ahead, and certain guys that
maybe you had, like I don't say a tough time with,
but guys you had to be absolutely frank with or
honest with. And we've talked about this too the conversation. Actually,
(05:01):
several said, listen, I've been wanting to talk to you
about this for a while. Thank god we have this opportunity.
And they would just go and it kind of blew
me away, blew me away. And it happened even to
a certain extent when I was with the Ras after
I had left the Rays, when guys have a chance
to digest everything that occurred and then they realize exactly
what you were doing and why to come back and
(05:22):
may be very complimentary actually, and it was all it
was like heartwarming and you know, me, I could cry
very easily. So all that stuff was in place, and
so that was I was not expecting that, Not even
for a second was I expecting that. And that came
from a large portion of the group. So it was
it was, you know, there's one of those things you
(05:43):
just don't know sometimes how guys really felt about you,
because in the moment, you're managing and you have to
make tough decisions, and sometimes you have to rep people
the wrong way just because it's for the betterment of
the entire group. But then to have fellows come up
to you years later and say, hey, you were right,
(06:04):
and on and on and on.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Wow, it just kind of tore me up a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
And then on top of that, there was others that
I initiated contact with too, to make sure that they
know how much I appreciate it what they did and
how they did it. So it was a love best
there's no question about it. However, I was like absolutely
pleasantly surprised, shocked the validation coming from your group ten
years later really humbling and heartwarming and wonderful.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I'm so happy to hear that. And as you know, Joe,
I mean winning the championship. There's such a gap between
getting to that, in this case, the last game, the
seventh the game of the World Series, and actually winning
that game and finishing it off in terms of historical significance, importance,
you had a great group no matter what, whether you
win a game or lose the game. I think you
(06:56):
guys would have gotten together ten years hence and had
a great time, There's no question about it.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Very tight knit.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Group, a lot of them kind of the same age
in the prime of their career and then the older guys.
But winning and finishing it off. Give me a sense,
because I was there before the Cubs won at a
Cubs convention, the sense of the connection between Cubs fans
and this team and then specifically this team that it
did win, and the satisfied generations.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Really it's not an exaggeration.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Generations of Cubs fans who were waiting for that one moment,
and I'm sure you picked up on that vibe in
the ballroom from the fans. So give me a sense
of what that meant that there was a championship now
to be shared, even though they love for the team
has been very intense.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah, I mean comp would be the Bears was eighty
five Bears coach did cub That's the only comp I
could come up with, because you know, being in town
at that particular moment a couple of days ago, that's
when the Bears were playing the Rams the playoffs in
that city was absolutely on fire. It's freezing outside and
they're on fire. It was from every corner, right the bellman,
(08:04):
the ladies at the front desk, everybody in a hotel,
we're talking because they knew who we were, about us,
and then of course the Bears, and they were like
being let out of work early so they could watch
the game that night, and everywhere you went was absolutely buzzing.
And then I did draw the mental comps you know
about us back in twenty sixteen. I remember what the
(08:26):
city felt like. The whole town was dressed in the
red and blue colors. The office buildings were lit up
in those colors. I saw the same thing with the Bears.
The difference would be that we did that for so
many more games. I mean, this was like a one
game event once a week. The Bears fans had to endure,
whereas the Cubs there was like mini games that had
to be processed and played. And so I think the
(08:48):
vibe to a certain extent, could even be greater over
a period of time, but it's much. It's a lot
like that gratitude among the fans and listen. I had
to sit up there with the Dempster and he did
a nice job with the interview me in the right directions,
and I was able to once again thank the fans,
and you can see people nod their heads out there.
(09:10):
But it's true, the fan base there, I've never been
around anything like that personally, not only their love of
the team, but the the traditional or the the years
of loyalty to that group based on families and legacies
and things like. It's just incredible how thick and deep
(09:31):
that goes and for so many years. So if you
really permit yourself to wrap your mind about it, you
really have to understand the number of people you're impacting.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I listen, I meet.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
People there while I was there, and that guys want
to start crying when they when they get to visit,
and then they start unloading on you, and it's it's
it's sincere, my god, is it's sincere. And you really
understand the importance of sports in a in a in
a culture, within a culture within our country. I mean,
the sports has been such a it still is a
(10:02):
large part of United States and how we operate and
the loyalties involved in the just the pure enjoyment we
get out of something like that. But the cub fans
to have their World Series realized ten years ago, not
that they don't want another one, but that definitely satiated
a lot of pain and anguish for so many years.
And I also thought this, as we come back for
(10:25):
further reunions, it's even going to intensify some more the
gratitude from the people that.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
So well said Joe, I mean, listen, there are sometimes
I think all of us kind of look at what
we do and we say, well, where really is the
meaning of this? It's basically fun and games, right, We're
playing a game, we're keeping score, right. But you made
a good point the happiness that you can bring so
many people, which I'm sure you're not even aware of
when you're in the middle of things, but to get
(10:52):
that feedback had to be really, really satisfying. And the
other thing I want to ask you about, Joe, is
the twenty twenty six Cubs. I'm sure you got a
sense from the fans there what they think about this team.
They hadn't been happy, because everybody wants things to happen
immediately in the course of the winter. It turns out
they made a couple of deals right before then, with
Edwin Cabrera and Alex Bregman. What was the vibe you
(11:14):
got on how Cubbs fans look at their team going
into twenty six.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah, very solid, very optimistic, and there's a love affair
going on, no question. I think the thing I like
about this group also there's some there's some when I
say character characters, there's a lot of charisma about him too.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Bregman absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Was a perfectly timed acquisition for a lot of different
reasons to really stir him up the fan base. I
got to meet him briefly everything I thought he was,
and when he walked out there, there definitely was a
stir among the group.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Allowed stir so.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I think that to me, and you could, you could
analytically dive in him as much as you want. And
the part about analytics that just doesn't understand is just
the guy, the person, and what kind of impact he
can make. And among the group the players, it's definitely felt.
I mean, you got him Dansby, Swanson, Nico and Bush.
(12:08):
That's a really good infield. That's a really good infield
as baseball players and as you know, kind of guys,
the tough guys, guys that are somewhat charismatic or really charismatic,
And I use that word a lot, because I think
it's important. They were missing some of that, so the
fan base felt all of that and any other part
in that. Carbert, my god, is this guy big?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
I did.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
First of all, I didn't know who it was to be,
and I said, damn and Cobert, he's a big man.
The last point I want to make is armstrong. You
know he's very good, but I didn't realize how engaging
he is. Gregarious, well spoken, he's a history as a
student of the game, history of the game. I just
he and I got cornered before this event with Dempster
(12:52):
later on the last night, and I had a conversation
with him for at least twenty minutes to half an hour,
and he was very impressive.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
And that's to me.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
You could say all you want about his play and
defense and he got better at staying behind the ball, whatever.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
But I really like this guy.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
He's he's the kind of guy like I would love
to have the opportunity to manage, because that's what you're
looking for, a combination of physical and mental talent. He's
he gets it. It's not an act by any means.
So from a distance, you're always wondering wondering, wondering because
you hear him a lot of times when I'm telling
you it's it's it's real. And I'm a fan and
(13:28):
I wish him nothing but the best because I think
he's he is the kind of guy that really can't.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Stir the group up emotionally.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I know sometimes he may have gotten a little bit
gone the other direction emotionally, out of control when negative
things happen. I think he'll curtail that and control that
as we move forward. But overarching, man, fans dig this
group and I got a good feel about them.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
That's so cool to hear, and I'm glad it sounds
like a really really cool weekend, Joe, And it was
for you. I mean, you probably won't say this, but
I will. Hopefully this reignites, you know, more involvement for
you in Cubs universe. There's no reason why you should
not be the only manager walking this earth right now
who has won a championship with the Cubs. Should be
(14:13):
an integral part of that organization, not just on a
reunion weekend. So hopefully something else more comes out of
it for you with the Cubs in terms of that
relationship you mentioned, Uh, Breggy and he signed an interesting
contract last year with the Red Sox that now looks
like it might be I don't know a template and
what's going on in baseball. We're going to talk about
(14:35):
some of these contracts here with Bishett and Tucker. We'll
do that right after this on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
I mentioned the Bregman contract last year with the Red
Sox where he's getting paid about forty million dollars a
year with an opt out. So the Red Sox essentially
got about three good months out of Bregman because as
he had the leg injury there, he missed a couple
of months and it just did not have his timing
at the end of the year. It did not hit
well down the end and the meantime they had the
trade didn't have to, but they did trade Ralphie Old
(15:14):
Devers as a function of that signing. So allowing someone
signing it a huge high aav short term with an
opt out, he's out the door. What they have to
show for it other than maybe a draft pick here.
But you see now the higher AAVs short term contracts
sort of like the NBA contracts and We'll start with
(15:36):
Kyle Tucker's contract. Joe, it's just amazing to think that,
you know, four years, two hundred and forty million dollars.
Let me give you a couple of numbers here, because
it's not just that there is some deferred money here.
By the way, so his contract averages with present day
value about fifty seven million dollars. But when you factor
(15:56):
in the taxes that the La Dodgers have to pay
because they have a payroll above four hundred million dollars,
so they're the highest tier of tech penalties, Kyle Tucker
is going to cost the Dodgers one hundred and nineteen
point nine million dollars per year. That is more than
eleven teams are paying their entire rosters. So I get
(16:19):
it where these teams say, you know what, we don't
want to be on the hook at the back end
of these long, long contracts where guys in his decline
phase and we're paying premium money for it.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So let's just pay them a lot of money in
the short period of time.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
If you're the Dodgers, you defer a lot of it
because they're basically, you know, owned by Guggenheim, which can
invest the money in investment projects and products and make
some money off of that. They do have to fund
a lot deferred money, but that's not a problem for them.
So tell me what you think of this, Joe, Is
it a trending? Can more teams do that these high
(16:51):
average annual values over a short period of time, because
in four years, Kyle Tucker is going to make more
money than Barry Bonds made in his entire career.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
But not believe money versus time, right, I mean, if
you're you're in a position like the Dodgers are, they
like they're kind of like printing it. You just describe
how they could actually print money and versus time. I
think the way the modern front office works, they just
don't want to be on the hook with a particular
guy for a period of time. That I think, which
you're seeing right now, which I think it kind of
(17:22):
makes sense, is the heavy upload or frontloading of paying
these guys off just to make sure that, like you suggested,
at the end of their the age, when where the
client is probably or should or will happen, they don't
have to be on the hook and then they could
just move on from there. So I think obviously you
have to be in that kind of financial position to
work those kinds of contracts. So that's just going to
(17:42):
be unique to them and a couple other teams. There's
no nobody else is going to really be able to
want to do something like that. Several couple guys, but
the Dodgers do it as well as anybody because they're
in that position right now. They have absolutely performed on
the field, and so they're able to perform off the field,
and so they're probably the philosophical question is monopoly money
versus time, and so we have the monopoly money, so
(18:05):
let's just cut down on a time we get They
kind of went on both ends, and then the amount
that you said extrapolated over time. I mean still with
the CBA coming up next year, that could all be
curtailed in some regard, and that's just going to be
so curious how that all plays out. So everything's interconnected,
and they're they're kind of like you know, in a
(18:27):
position they they don't even have to worry about it.
The Dodgers, I mean, if they win their third in
a row, god, they could just ride that for a
while and feel pretty good about themselves. So they're still
going after number three, here comes the clicktive bargaining agreement.
We've already won three championships in a row, so we
could kind of uh surf along with this one until
it actually gets worked out. The last point is just loyalties.
(18:48):
Just talking about bregmant and all these new methods of
contracting people. You know, there was a time when, you know,
it was such a cool thing when your when your
favorite player played with your team forever. Obviously that's the
thing of the past, and loyalty as really, like a
lot of words in our society, have taken on a
different definition, where bias and truth have become the same.
(19:10):
Loyalty is definitely a one way straight I guess it
always has been, not been acknowledged necessarily, but to put
yourself as a player in a position to make a
lot of money and then have an opt out from
the player's perspective and the agent and not even from
the team's.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Perspective, they're okay with that.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I really believe they're okay with that, because again, the
loyalty issue, they always feel like they're going to be
able to generate or regenerate somebody in that position somehow,
So I think from the organizational perspective, they don't have
to worry about fans clamoring because they constantly get rid
of good guys or they're not loyal to this particular group.
It's just it's just part of the living room furniture. Now,
(19:50):
that's the way it is. So all these things are interesting,
but I think it's they're all explainable. I just think
it's a sign of the times and that's the way
the world works right now.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, I hadn't actually thought about that, Joe, You're absolutely right.
The there's no expectation of loyalty now among fans. Like
Pete Alonzo leaves the New York Mets. He's their all
time franchise home run hitter, drafted, developed play for no
other team but the New York Mets. He leaves. I
can't tell you there was a big outcry, like why
didn't they sign this guy? There really wasn't. It's like this,
(20:22):
and obviously you can extrapolate this bigger picture. With our society,
it's always like what's next, what's new? Give me something different,
give me new, And there's this demand I think on
teams to start. Maybe it's not a demand, but I
think there's a subtle pressure that you know, what have
you done lately? What kind of changes are coming? You know,
nobody wants to sit still, even when you have a
(20:42):
good team.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
So that's part and parcel of it.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And speaking of the Mets, by the way, Joe, I
think they are somewhat in the category of the Dodgers
because you know, Bashet's a really good player.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I like him a lot.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
I think, to me, Joe, he's one of these kind
of guys. He's always going to hit.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
He just has incredible bat to ball skills. He uses
the whole field. I like him a lot.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I don't think he's gonna have much of a problem
transitioning to third base, which will play for the New
York Mets.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
You know, he is a good athlete.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
He was a little miscast as a shortstop the last
couple of years, lack of range.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I think he'll be fine at third base. I'm not
worried about the defensive side there.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
And like I said, I think he's just a he's
a hitter, he's going to hit. But the Mets again
short term deal three years, one hundred and twenty six million,
so his forty two million per year with taxes equates
to eighty six million dollars per year for bo Chet.
Now he's a good player, impact player, franchise aircraft carrier. No,
(21:41):
so the Mets are somewhat in that Dodger category where
they going to afford to do that.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, I mean his I know his daddy had Dante
when nineteen eighty four instructional League in Mace Arizona, and
Dante was the same way incredible back to ball skills,
just did Dante was one of the better bat ball
hitters I've ever had, and hit it hard too, and
it's it's kind of like his it over into bow
and again it's almost what you're talking about regarding the
(22:07):
lack of loyalt here. However, we want to describe it
the new cycle. The new cycle changes. I mean, something
inappropriate or bad happens, just hold on, that's going to
go away. Something new is going to come out to
more and that's going to be yesterday's news, which is
almost like five years AGO's five year ago news. I
think part of it is in this generation with this
nobody's concerned about making a mistake giving out this kind
(22:30):
of dough anymore because it's analytically driven. And again we've
talked about this before, and my impression is that analytics
does provide a safety net for decision making. So whomever
is running organizations, whether it's from the top ownership down
to the front offices, the fact that they're doing this
more on data and information compared to you know, say
Jack McKeon standing in a smoky lobby trying to swing
(22:53):
a deal for this next shortstop based on field gun,
you know, gut intuition and good old baseball sense.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Completely different.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
And I think when you make mistakes now, based on
the way it's the information is generated.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
It's more forgivable. I think that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
So all this stuff is it's just again it's a
way of doing business right now, and when it doesn't work,
we'll just cast that aside, do something new because we
did it based on sound information and it didn't work out,
so we'll just move on to the next thing. And
I don't know that the level of accountability is great
for this kind of decision making compared to what it
(23:33):
once had been.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
And real quick the Mets picking up Luis Robert Junior
from the Chicago White Sox. They traded Luis en hell Acuna,
Who's I think a dynamic player. I'm not sure he's,
you know, a six hundred at bat guy the big leagues,
but he's He's got skills, There's no question about it.
So it wasn't like they picked him up for nothing.
But Robert to me, is a good kind of a
(23:55):
one year of flyer here. I know he's got an option,
I think, but man, it's hard to find center fielders
in the game today.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
The Mets needed a center fielder.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
He did play better the second half of last year,
as bad as the White Sox have been the last
few years, and I understand they're starting to turn a corner.
I like the idea of taking somebody off of that
organization and reinvigorating them. And he's young enough to me,
Joe that I think that the ceiling is still there.
I'm not sure he'll reach what we thought he was
going to reach in terms of the ceiling. His skills
(24:24):
are great, So taking a chance on a young guy
with really good skills at a position that's hard to find,
I'm okay with this move by the Mets. It could
not work out for them, But taking this quote unquote
chance on Luis Robert Junior.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I think is a good one for the New York Mets.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I love it, Actually, I do like it a lot.
I think he needs to be in a more accountable situation.
Going from the White Sox where there was absolutely zero expectations,
there's like a multitude of losses, like epic losses, and
I don't even know what the clubhouse was like there
at all. But they he needs to be on some
veteran players that are going to hold him more accountable
(25:04):
to his day. You know, I look at him, I
think of George Solaira. I love Jorge Silira is one
of my just favorite guys. He's just a wonderful guy.
But Georgie got better as he moved it along. Although
Georgie really performed well even back and when he before
he really established himself in the playoff situation, A really
always showed up. I think this guy with the right
folks around him, I'm talking about specific players. You got
(25:26):
a Lindor right there right now, Semeon and Polanco right
now first base and others on this team, that's what
he needs. I really do believe that. So I'd be curious.
I saw him, I saw him up front specimen, absolute specimen.
Kind of the thing that I didn't like about him
a little bit on the stiff side. I thought, like
(25:47):
robotic in spite of being a that's kind of a
contrary to like being a great athlete, but not really.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
The fluid kind of movements that you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
In a baseball player. And I think that if you
went to a scouting situation, you might discuss that or
talk about that in a meeting. So I'm curious, however,
look at Jo Odell. I mean, Joe Adell last year
had a kind of a break not kind of had
a breakout you're in, And Joe had that same kind
of patterns about him as a baseball player, not necessarily fluid,
(26:15):
but a great athlete. And I think Robert is kind
of along the same line. So I know Joe Odell
personally obviously, and he's one of my favorite players I've
ever had just as a person. I don't know Robert,
but I just think if you put the right group
around this guy from Jump Street, I mean, I would
definitely put his locker next to whomever I believe is
(26:37):
the most influential and best guy for him to talk
to on a daily Basis. I'd put his locker right
next to that guy, and I would tell that guy,
whomever it is, lindor whomever it's going to be, part
of his responsibility is to make sure that this guy
kind of gets it what he doesn't get right now.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
So I think it's a great sign. I do. I
love it.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
I actually I love what David Starrs is doing right now.
Everybody's complaining about a lot of stuff, but I like
what he's doing.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
And he's got the small market plan.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I get that, but I kind of like the small
mare I could plan because we're just talking about how
guys ship regardless over the every couple of years and
you have to be flexible, and I think he is.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
So I like it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
And to me, Polanco and Bashett two for lack of
a better word, term baseball players.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Right, And for a team that, let's face it, they
did have. They can deny it all they want, they
did have clubhouse issues last year. That was not the
same team in twenty five as they were in twenty
four for whatever reasons. But I like the kind of
personalities they brought in. In a great point. On Robert, I
would put him next to Lindor. I mean he is
to me the leader may be too strong of a word.
(27:40):
He just leads in a different kind of way. He
is your franchise guy. I know you've got Won Soto
there as well, but Lindor is just more outgoing. If
you will, Who's going to take somebody under his wing?
I think I like that idea. And speaking of center fielders,
the Hall of Fame vote, Joe Carlos Beltron and Andrew
Jones both elected to the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Congratulations to them.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
The Baseball Writers had elected only eight center fielders in
its history, going back almost eighty years before this vote,
and two are going in now. Beltron to me, obviously,
he paid a penalty his third year in because of
this twenty seventeen Astro sign stealing scandal.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
He was a big part of it. People, He was
a mastermind.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
He was the one who said, hey, let's put the
monitor right near the dugout so we can get these
images in real time and transfer them onto the field.
He's a guy who played for the Yikes previously got
to Houston, and he basically said, you guys are behind
the time. There was a lot going on with sign
stealing he took it to another level. I didn't like
the fact that he never, at the time anyway owned
up to it. He was asked about it, he said, no,
(28:42):
we don't do anything that's illegal. We're not using a
center field camera. He flied out light about it. He
was told by Brian McCann to stop.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
While it was going on. The manager A. J.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Hinch had busted the monitor twice a signal to the
team to knock it off, and they kept doing it
right through the postseason.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
So yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's I don't think it's an unforgivable it's an unforgettable
prime against the game to me. But it doesn't rise
to me the same level as peds, which are federally
controlled substances. And we've known for years and years and
years and years and years, going back to even Ben
Johnson in the nineteen eighties, that that's a shortcut that
is unethical in any kind of professional or even amateur sport.
(29:21):
This was something brand new that we didn't know was
even possible. And Andrew Jones, to me, is another guy.
He actually set a record.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
He debuted on the ballot at seven percent and in
nine years he got over the seventy five percent threshold
to seventy eight percent.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Why it takes so long. Yeah, there was a domestic
violence arrest. He's a guy who just.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Completely fell off the cliff at age thirty, basically didn't
take care of his body and wound up with an
OPS adjusted OPS of one to eleven, which is just hohum.
And you know, it took a while to appreciate that.
It is prime anyway, ten straight years averaging thirty five
home runs and winning the Gold Glove every year. So
that's where we're at in voting now, where we're looking
(30:04):
more at prime, the peak of somebody's career. It used
to be when I started voting, it was you need
peak and you needed longevity. It was much harder I started, Joe,
when three hundred game winners like Gaylord, Perry, Don Sutton,
Phil Nicro they needed three four five ballots to get in.
It's I'm not saying it was better than The voting
has evolved in some ways for the better. But first
(30:27):
of all, give me your take on seeing two center
fielders Beltron and Andrew Jones go in.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
You've managed and coached against both of them.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yeah, First of all, beltran I was a fan when
I first saw him with Kansas City.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Actually that was a.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Team I think Tony Muser was the manager. I can't
remember the exact years, but Johnny Damon was also on
that team, Germain Die, Joe Randa, Escobar, maybe there was
another shortstop that I really liked, Carlos Feblus, second base Sweeney,
then Montgomery and the bullpen. That team there, I could
(31:01):
not believe they broke it up because they were with
this with the Angels, and I thought, oh my god,
what is wrong with these people? That was like so
talented that group right there, They're just they were young,
they couldn't get it together yet, But my god, were
they talented. And Bell Tran switch hitter with you know,
pop from both sides ran just like this. He's one
(31:22):
of those easy athletes man, And it was just obvious
so of Kansas City had been a little bit more
patient there, they would have reaped through words a little
bit sooner.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
And I've always been a Beltran fan Andrew Jones.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
I didn't see as much being in an American league
most of the time. Obviously watched him a lot, and
there was a fluidity about his play too, and I know,
there was times that you know, Bobby Cox had issues
with him and how he went about his business, and
so from a player perspective, to me, it was easier
to see bel Trant as being a Hall of Famer
as opposed to Andrew Jones being Hall of Famer just
based on watching him on the field, the things that
(31:56):
you know Andrew did off the field, or and then
of course.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Bell Trand with the science deealing.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
The thing about that particularly to me, part of that
is Baseball's fault. I mean with the not being somewhat
aware that with the advanced technology as it was, to
not be a little bit more proactively involved in preventing
the potential of things being stolen because of all the
different things that are coming on board at that particular time.
(32:23):
They just you just have to stay ahead of those
things as new things arrive. To me, I would just
hire people that like say, okay, this is just starting
or happening. What's going to go sideways because of this
new addition to what we're doing on a major league level.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
So no nose, I mean it's their fault. I mean
they're the ones that are culpable.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
And I still believe that we should have stayed ahead
of that a little bit better. So, yeah, I bolt
are great players. Like I said, I saw Beltrand more,
but I also believe like you're saying, I mean, there
might have been a higher standard back then.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Numerically speaking, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I mean, the guys that are making it now, maybe
there's not as many that have built up those kind
of gaudy numbers that were built up in the past.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
Definitely not what's starting pitchers.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
They're not going to be permitted to get to the
point where they stay in games long enough to get
wins like they once were able to, or make that
many starts during the course of their career. All those
things are conspiring against starting pitchers to have that opportunity.
Hopefully the next one, one of the next ones would
be Johnny Lester getting that opportunity when.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
It's his time.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
So there's there's a lot to unpack with all that.
Tommy and these guys are absolutely great players. And you know,
I don't want to be biased to the previous generations
because that's what we grew up looking at the back
of baseball cards. These guys were like, and we didn't
you know, part of it was we didn't get to
see them all the time, so they were they were
larger than life. I mean without the streaming devices, being
able to watch your team play every night, all the
(33:43):
things that you can do right now, which I think
humanizes the players more than back in the day where
they were they were superhuman. They just were because we
got only had You had to show up at a
ballpark to see them, saw them once a week on
the game of the week or possibly mail Allen talking
about this week in baseball. Otherwise you didn't get to
see your guys, and so that really cast a large
(34:04):
ara about these fellows were compared to today and even
to the point with social media everything else. So anyway,
long answer, I think there's a good selections, but there's
there's so many different ways to view all this. And
you're one of the voters, so you get it as
well as anybody else does.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, one last quick note on the Hall of Fame vote.
The guys who didn't make it. It was a year
where it was it was not a strong ballot, if
you will, uh so you saw a lot of people
picking up games.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
There were four players who had double.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Digit gains, including Felix Hernandez who went up twenty five
point five percent. That ties a record for the biggest
year to year game. So if you're going to look
at Felix Hernandez and Cole Hamil's as Hall of famers,
and I'm not saying they're going to get in, but
they're tracking pretty well here, man, you got to go
look back and people like David Kohane and Brett Saberhagen
(34:57):
and Luis te On and Tommy Bridges and Urban Shocker
and Kevin Brown.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
There's a whole list of.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Guys who won more games through more innings with a
lower era than some of these guys were looking at.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
And I realized that the standards, as you said, Joe,
they're different.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
We're not seeing guys like Jack Morris taking the ball
in the eighth inning every start.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
I get that.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
But if the other guys were held to a much
higher standard and they see other guys who've accomplished less
going to the Hall of Fame, I mean there's a
lot of cleanup we need to do then to get
more people in who are not being held to these
new standards in the Hall of Fame. And if we're
going to talk about peaks, and you know, the Johann
Santanas of the world, the Tim Linscom's, the Madison bum Gardeners.
(35:38):
We have to go back and look at them now.
I'm just saying voting is very tricky. It constantly evolves.
This is nothing new. Back in the day when I
first started, people said, oh, only the inner circle guys.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
You could vote for them for the first year. They're
Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Like there was a different level unofficially, you know, so
guys like Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk, these guys had
to wait a couple of ballots or more to get in.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I'm glad that's gone your Hall of Famer. You're a
Hall of Famer. But it's a constantly evolving process.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I wouldn't take some of these numbers and say this
guy's definitely going in because he went up twenty two
percent this year or whatever it is. And just to
keep you abreast of what's on the horizon here. Next year,
Buster Posey is on the ballot along with Johnny Lester.
The year after that, Albert Poohols and Yadia Molina. The
year after that, Miguel Cabrera, Zach greenk Joey Evado. So
(36:29):
I think We're going to get back to the first
ballot Hall of Famers in the next three elections, and
after that it's pretty quiet in twenty thirty and after
that in twenty thirty one, it's long down the road.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I get it, Clayton Kershaw, so that just keep your
eye on that.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
The Hall of Fame wasn't a big surprise that we
got two center fielders in.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That's the way we thought it was going to go.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And what I want to do next, Joe and I
love talking to you about managers and coaches and methodologies.
I'm sure if you didn't watch it the championship game
college football, I mean, if you're not impressed with Kurt Signetti, man,
you're missing something here. I got to get Joe's take
on a guy who really impressed me as a.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Manager of players and managing a game.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
We're going to talk about that right after this on
the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
The look of Kurt Signetti on the sidelines there, it
doesn't remind you of anybody.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I mean, he's got a great game face.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
Adam Siminski, I knew you were going to go there.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
High school football coach, My god, his teeth would fall
out when it was I go to talk to him
on the sideline, and he would only wear a short
sleeve shirt. He would not wear a long sleep short
or a jacket to prove to us, you know, it's
not cold when it was cold, and he had his
teeth on the side kind of knocked out by Alan
Amichi when he was playing at Michigan State, like hooked
on and he get to rattle in and gets so
(38:06):
cold that these suckers would fall out while I was
talking to him. Sometimes he'd reached out, pick him up
and put him back in. So that was a look
that none of us will ever forget. And we all
love them too. I mean, you could not be tougher
than him, it was impossible. So yes, I've been through
the look. And then I said Erstad because I always
love Ersty's scowl.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
When he was did not approve of what was going
on around.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
If Signetti's got that look, and I would say that
coach Sabin probably has that look too, So Signetti Sabin,
I think that's those are like, even though Signetti has
not had the success that Sabin's had, but these are
guys that when it comes to young players, I don't
know Saban really wasn't as successful as pro wise, and
I don't know if Signetti would be too. But on
(38:52):
the level that they're working right now, their combination of
intellectual wisdom and their ability to get their point across,
and there's such great speakers in regard to getting their
point across along with this visual that's going to scare
the crap out of any twenty year old.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
I was lucky enough that my high school football coach
was my dad, and he was He was awesome, There's
no question about it. So I was coached at home
as well as on the football field. But there was
a quality that he had that Signetti has and Joe
Madden has as a manager, and that is that I'm
not saying this because I was his son, because I
(39:28):
saw it happen with everybody else of the team.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Where you don't want to disappoint the coach.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
That is a powerful quality if you can engender the trust,
and that's essentially what it is. And I see that
with the way Indiana plays, they do not want to
disappoint their coach. Sometimes the coaches are alienated from their players.
Like you could create attention if you will, and players
like I'm going to show this guy. But in this case,
(39:56):
it's pure trust I see and the other thing I saw.
And this is why I brought this up, because we
know about you know, his look on the sidelines, and
we know he's got the trust of his players. But
the way he ran that game, you know, twice going
forward on fourth down. The first time, he knows that
he's got this kid at Becker, the wide receiver who
(40:16):
literally has not dropped the ball all year. I just
throw it to his back shoulder and he's going to
find a way to catch the base with the football.
And then after the field goal team comes on on
fourth down closer to the goal line, he's like, wait
a second. You know, having a field goal still allows
them to win the game with a touchdown. We need
(40:36):
to go bigger than that puts the offense back on
the field. It was interesting that he thought that he
saw Miami in a certain defense and if they showed
the same look on fourth down, he called the quarterback drop,
which they don't run a whole lot, and that's exactly
what Miami did, and the play worked perfectly. They score
the touchdown, and then at the end of the game,
Joe Miami's driving down the field. They have no timeouts left.
(40:58):
How many times have you seeing the defensive team actually
call a time out, essentially doing a favor for the
team that's out of timeouts. But he did it because
he saw there was a little bit of I don't
want to say they were confused, but they were out
of sorts a little bit. Their defense calls time out,
settles the game, they intercept the ball the next play.
(41:20):
I was just so impressed by the way he had
everything under control when the game was really at its
most urgent and critical moments.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
He did a lot of his work off Broadway, right,
was it, James Madison? Yeah, I drive by that place
on the way to Florida all the time. It's a
really good looking ballpark two so it's right off Interstate
eighty one, Purple seats, kind of big. But guys like that,
when you get a chance to do your workoff Broadway,
you could try things, You could do different things. It's
(41:49):
an easel or open canvas that you could just create
and again try things, and if they don't work, we
could re evaluate and move on. And I'm saying that
because I felt the same way coming up on all
the backfields that I worked on, all the outposts that
I worked on where you see a you see what
he does in the National Championship game. But to him,
he had done that several other times. It was in
his head. He'd been in different situations where we've talked
(42:12):
about Phil Venterino and El Paso, where I screwed that
one up? Or the time I put want ads on
the back of toilet stalls in Midland, how I screwed.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
That one up?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Or when I, you know, started working a five man
defense back in the minor leagues and then that worked
a couple of times. You know, there's the outpost is
a great place. Off Broadway is a great place to
grow and really try things that are you. And of
course we're all plagiarists, so you know, you get the idea.
I got the idea of the five man from watching
Gene and I think Billy Martin too, But then again,
(42:44):
it has to be years and how do you practice it,
how do you apply it, and et cetera, et cetera,
and what are the mechanics of it? So I that's
what I see with a guy like Signetti. He worked
off Broadway and with that he's able to hone all
of this, and to his credit, when he got on Broadway,
he didn't change anything. He's still the same cat. And
(43:04):
that's that's where a lot of guys make mistakes. So
when you are successful, when you get elevated, there's this
perceived need to change and to do something differently because
all of a sudden, I am here and he did
not do that.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Yeah, just amazing job he did there in two years,
turned around a program that had no history of success.
Really know, and it just really impressive. I knew that
you noticed that in the job that he did, so
really enjoyed your perspective there. And speaking of perspective, Joe,
I mean, you're just back from Chicago. This is your
chance to end this episode of the Book of Joe.
(43:42):
I'm not sure if you're going to go to Carl Sandberg.
You got a Chicago theme here after getting a taste
of the Windy city, What do you have for us
this time?
Speaker 4 (43:49):
I was going with greatness. I was going with the
Hall of Fame on this one.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
So I was researching different thoughts and ideas with that,
and there's so many wonderful people involved in and got
a couple but I'm gonna start with Hemingway. There's nothing
noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility
is being superior to your former self. And that reminded
me of something I always thought, as you ascend, I
(44:16):
wasn't competing against anybody else. I was competing against myself.
So as I moved up the ladder doing whatever I wanted,
a better version of me on an annual basis, whether
it was what I was saying, how I was saying it,
how I presenting it, the same thing, kind of adding
to my abilities, whatever it might be, through going to
(44:38):
a clinic, talking to a more experienced coach, manager, from
an office, whatever it was, You're always looking to add
to what got you to that particular point. So just
trying to condense and putting, in my words, compete against
yourself to be better.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
That's what I always did. And I was really.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Very aware of that, really aware of it, and again
as part of the gratitude I had for not getting
any kind of particular job way before it was my
time to get it. And then finally with mister Churchill,
the price, the price of greatness is responsibility. It gets
lonely at the top, doesn't it. I mean, that's what
they say, and it's true. When you're the dude that
(45:20):
has to make the final decision, you can be lonely
because you I say, you know, hopefully, if it's more
than fifty percent agree with you, that'd be wonderful. But
if you even get fifty one percent, you're you're lucky.
So you have to be willing to take along that responsibility.
And regarding Major League Baseball players becoming Hall of famers,
the responsibility of sacrifice, personal sacrifice, work a little bit more,
(45:43):
a couple more, a couple more, with this, couple.
Speaker 4 (45:45):
More of that.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
So these guys that were talking about if you could
roll back the tape of somebody who was a videographer
with them every step of the way to the point
where they get in the Hall of Fame, we're going
to see a dude that was worked a lot, had
a lot of failures, never quit, and got better because
of it.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
So that's what I thought about for today.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
I was thinking about the Hall of Fame and to
compete against yourself to become better. And then the price
of greatness is responsibility that you've earned by being in
that position. And it's very important to understand that and
the accountability of it.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Great stuff, Joe.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I really liked the Hemingway angle there of competing against yourself,
always just trying to be better in every little way.
That's why, you know, I hear people and I hear
this term brain rot. People were just scrolling on their
phones absent mindedly. How is that making you better? I
don't understand that, complete waste of time. And I've always
I've always sort of lived by that, Joe, and I
(46:38):
hadn't heard that Hemingway quote before, So I appreciate that
for you bringing that up.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
I mean, I've really always felt that when you're right
about the the the amateurs really.
Speaker 4 (46:51):
Consuming most of our time.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
I mean, that was a concern I've had several years
ago when at the advent of social media, because basically
everybody becomes a reporter and it kind of minimizes the
actual professionals.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
People that have.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Gone to go forward have sat locker room talking sports wise,
in a locker room, a dirty locker room, in the
minor leagues, whatever, honeing your craft. Eventually, move move, move up,
and you get to the point where you have credibility
among the people you're talking to and then eventually you
become who you are and it's earned. Whereas today, if
you have a telephone, small production crew, all of a sudden,
(47:26):
you become a journalist, which is really annoying because there's
no level of accountability with that. They could say whatever
they want. And that's the part about all that that
bothers me. And that's the part that from jump Street
I'm talking about. When I first this first came on board,
that was my concern was the fact that now we're
going to have amateurs running this whole thing, and the
(47:48):
professionals are going to be pushed aside because obviously the
amateurs gonna say whatever they want to get away with it.
The pros had to really validate and research what they
were going to put out there and write and and
and have to back it up, which is not necessarily
true anymore. So that's what I that's what I think
about with all of this. I love the idea that
you know yourself, and there's so many others. I just
(48:08):
was texting with Joel Sherman. You say, people that I
really respect in the industry. Too many times I'll read
an article and to be kind of scathing, and then
I look at who wrote it, and it's normallysch to
some young person that really has not built relationships, done time,
really researched whatever, and it's purely based on hopefully getting
some kind of attention for it.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
Not good, not good.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
And that's that's the part of the social media world
that I find discouraging.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Great stuff.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Joe, We'll see you next time of the Book of Joe,
and happy tenth anniversary year.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Thank you brother.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
I'm looking forward to Well, it's the next We're gonna
be fifteen or twenty. You're supposed to go every five
years from now on, aren't you.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Absolutely, I'll do it every year.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Yeah, Hey, we've talked about that. It was that much fun.
Thanks brother.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcast from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey There, and welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
It's the Book of Joe Podcasts with Me, Tom Berducci
and back from Chicago, Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
We've got a lot to talk about, Joe.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
We've got Kyle Tucker, We've got Bobus shit, We've got
Hall of Fame voting, lots going on, Luise Robert to
the New York Mets. But I'm going to start with
the big news, and that is Cubs Convention ten year
anniversary of the twenty sixteen world champion Chicago Cubs and
Joe Madden the guest of honor there.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oh, you gotta tell me, Joe, what was that like.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I've been lucky enough to be a Cubs convention on
the quote unquote normal year and it's been awesome.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So tell me give me a sense of the vibe.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It was exaggerated, There's no question about that. First of all,
seeing all the guys again was even better than I
had envisioned. I had so many one on one wonderful
conversations with members of that team. We started out and
in listen, the Cubs did a great job. Great party,
well done, well organized, well Everything started out with a
(01:19):
party like a cocktail hour in our clubhouse, and they
had the clubhouse all decked out. Everybody's uniform was hanging
at their locker. You know, obviously plenty to drink. It
began there and that's where the conversation started. Guys would
just corner you and just want to start talking about
the past and wonderful and bring up different moments and
(01:42):
just revealing their true feelings. It was really quite touching.
And then went into the nineteen fourteen Club and that's
where the food was and the party continued. Nineteen fourteen
Club was right underneath the stands behind Home Played. It's
one of the nicest nightclubs in all of Chicago. So
I went to there and really, this is the first
night again Schwarves with everybody was there but a couple
(02:02):
of guys. I got to see all the dudes and
it was really wonderful to be in their company again. Then,
of course, the next night, Friday night, is the opening ceremony.
After all day long, you go through this myriad of
interviews and uh little spots everywhere, and just everyone wanting
to talk about the guys in the past, and we
(02:23):
did that. But then here comes the introductions, and so
we were the first group, will be the first group.
Uh yeah, we're the first group recognized. We had to
walk out there and the place is going nuts, and
we sit down, and then the regulars come in Today's guys,
and then eventually the real Hall of famers and they
sat in front of us. We were in the second row,
(02:44):
and my god, I mean, you know, I'm sitting next
to Billy. Billy Williams is right there, Jose Cardinal of course,
sut Jody Davis was there, Sean Dunston is.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
It was just a really who's who right.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
In front of us, and it's a big ballroom of
about I don't know, a couple thousand people at least,
and and it just really really well done. So and
then after that, Ryan Dempster's cut his own little version
of the Tonight Show. You sit up there with him
almost like you are on the Tonight Show. Just really
raucously well done, great conversation even it's kind of even
(03:19):
better than you remember, kind of a thing. So I
was really grateful for all that and grateful for that
group of guys, because truly these were charismatic men's men,
men's men kind of baseball players that were really closely knit,
and as much as you knew that from the past,
it was really demonstrated in Chicago during the convention.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Joe, you said something I was most curious about when
you get together some of these guys you haven't seen
for a while. I understand, and you mentioned true feelings. Yeah,
almost a little bit like if you have a high
school reunion. You know you're enough for a move from
maybe a friendship. You haven't seen somebody for a while,
(04:00):
maybe there's something you always wanted to say, or it's
a different perspective with length between you and the event.
This is ten years later. Give me a sense if
you can share something. Was there a story that you
heard from someone that you hadn't heard And again, obviously
you're the manager of this team.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
You know these guys so well. But anything that was
shared with you, or maybe you shared with somebody else
that you were like that man is really cool both ways.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
You know, I really don't want to reveal because there
are really personal conversations, but let me say that they were.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Validation of how I did things among the group.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
You know, you do things. You win a World series
and win world championship and you do whatever you do,
and it's a pretty wonderful moment. But then if you
move the clock ten years ahead, and certain guys that
maybe you had, like I don't say a tough time with,
but guys you had to be absolutely frank with or
honest with. And we've talked about this too the conversation. Actually,
(05:01):
several said, listen, I've been wanting to talk to you
about this for a while. Thank god we have this opportunity.
And they would just go and it kind of blew
me away, blew me away. And it happened even to
a certain extent when I was with the Ras after
I had left the Rays, when guys have a chance
to digest everything that occurred and then they realize exactly
what you were doing and why to come back and
(05:22):
may be very complimentary actually, and it was all it
was like heartwarming and you know, me, I could cry
very easily. So all that stuff was in place, and
so that was I was not expecting that, Not even
for a second was I expecting that. And that came
from a large portion of the group. So it was
it was, you know, there's one of those things you
(05:43):
just don't know sometimes how guys really felt about you,
because in the moment, you're managing and you have to
make tough decisions, and sometimes you have to rep people
the wrong way just because it's for the betterment of
the entire group. But then to have fellows come up
to you years later and say, hey, you were right,
(06:04):
and on and on and on.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Wow, it just kind of tore me up a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
And then on top of that, there was others that
I initiated contact with too, to make sure that they
know how much I appreciate it what they did and
how they did it. So it was a love best
there's no question about it. However, I was like absolutely
pleasantly surprised, shocked the validation coming from your group ten
years later really humbling and heartwarming and wonderful.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I'm so happy to hear that. And as you know, Joe,
I mean winning the championship. There's such a gap between
getting to that, in this case, the last game, the
seventh the game of the World Series, and actually winning
that game and finishing it off in terms of historical significance, importance,
you had a great group no matter what, whether you
win a game or lose the game. I think you
(06:56):
guys would have gotten together ten years hence and had
a great time, There's no question about it.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Very tight knit.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Group, a lot of them kind of the same age
in the prime of their career and then the older guys.
But winning and finishing it off. Give me a sense,
because I was there before the Cubs won at a
Cubs convention, the sense of the connection between Cubs fans
and this team and then specifically this team that it
did win, and the satisfied generations.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Really it's not an exaggeration.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Generations of Cubs fans who were waiting for that one moment,
and I'm sure you picked up on that vibe in
the ballroom from the fans. So give me a sense
of what that meant that there was a championship now
to be shared, even though they love for the team
has been very intense.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah, I mean comp would be the Bears was eighty
five Bears coach did cub That's the only comp I
could come up with, because you know, being in town
at that particular moment a couple of days ago, that's
when the Bears were playing the Rams the playoffs in
that city was absolutely on fire. It's freezing outside and
they're on fire. It was from every corner, right the bellman,
(08:04):
the ladies at the front desk, everybody in a hotel,
we're talking because they knew who we were, about us,
and then of course the Bears, and they were like
being let out of work early so they could watch
the game that night, and everywhere you went was absolutely buzzing.
And then I did draw the mental comps you know
about us back in twenty sixteen. I remember what the
(08:26):
city felt like. The whole town was dressed in the
red and blue colors. The office buildings were lit up
in those colors. I saw the same thing with the Bears.
The difference would be that we did that for so
many more games. I mean, this was like a one
game event once a week. The Bears fans had to endure,
whereas the Cubs there was like mini games that had
to be processed and played. And so I think the
(08:48):
vibe to a certain extent, could even be greater over
a period of time, but it's much. It's a lot
like that gratitude among the fans and listen. I had
to sit up there with the Dempster and he did
a nice job with the interview me in the right directions,
and I was able to once again thank the fans,
and you can see people nod their heads out there.
(09:10):
But it's true, the fan base there, I've never been
around anything like that personally, not only their love of
the team, but the the traditional or the the years
of loyalty to that group based on families and legacies
and things like. It's just incredible how thick and deep
(09:31):
that goes and for so many years. So if you
really permit yourself to wrap your mind about it, you
really have to understand the number of people you're impacting.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
I listen, I meet.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
People there while I was there, and that guys want
to start crying when they when they get to visit,
and then they start unloading on you, and it's it's
it's sincere, my god, is it's sincere. And you really
understand the importance of sports in a in a in
a culture, within a culture within our country. I mean,
the sports has been such a it still is a
(10:02):
large part of United States and how we operate and
the loyalties involved in the just the pure enjoyment we
get out of something like that. But the cub fans
to have their World Series realized ten years ago, not
that they don't want another one, but that definitely satiated
a lot of pain and anguish for so many years.
And I also thought this, as we come back for
(10:25):
further reunions, it's even going to intensify some more the
gratitude from the people that.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
So well said Joe, I mean, listen, there are sometimes
I think all of us kind of look at what
we do and we say, well, where really is the
meaning of this? It's basically fun and games, right, We're
playing a game, we're keeping score, right. But you made
a good point the happiness that you can bring so
many people, which I'm sure you're not even aware of
when you're in the middle of things, but to get
(10:52):
that feedback had to be really, really satisfying. And the
other thing I want to ask you about, Joe, is
the twenty twenty six Cubs. I'm sure you got a
sense from the fans there what they think about this team.
They hadn't been happy, because everybody wants things to happen
immediately in the course of the winter. It turns out
they made a couple of deals right before then, with
Edwin Cabrera and Alex Bregman. What was the vibe you
(11:14):
got on how Cubbs fans look at their team going
into twenty six.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah, very solid, very optimistic, and there's a love affair
going on, no question. I think the thing I like
about this group also there's some there's some when I
say character characters, there's a lot of charisma about him too.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Bregman absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Was a perfectly timed acquisition for a lot of different
reasons to really stir him up the fan base. I
got to meet him briefly everything I thought he was,
and when he walked out there, there definitely was a
stir among the group.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Allowed stir so.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I think that to me, and you could, you could
analytically dive in him as much as you want. And
the part about analytics that just doesn't understand is just
the guy, the person, and what kind of impact he
can make. And among the group the players, it's definitely felt.
I mean, you got him Dansby, Swanson, Nico and Bush.
(12:08):
That's a really good infield. That's a really good infield
as baseball players and as you know, kind of guys,
the tough guys, guys that are somewhat charismatic or really charismatic,
And I use that word a lot, because I think
it's important. They were missing some of that, so the
fan base felt all of that and any other part
in that. Carbert, my god, is this guy big?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
I did.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
First of all, I didn't know who it was to be,
and I said, damn and Cobert, he's a big man.
The last point I want to make is armstrong. You
know he's very good, but I didn't realize how engaging
he is. Gregarious, well spoken, he's a history as a
student of the game, history of the game. I just
he and I got cornered before this event with Dempster
(12:52):
later on the last night, and I had a conversation
with him for at least twenty minutes to half an hour,
and he was very impressive.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
And that's to me.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
You could say all you want about his play and
defense and he got better at staying behind the ball, whatever.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
But I really like this guy.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
He's he's the kind of guy like I would love
to have the opportunity to manage, because that's what you're
looking for, a combination of physical and mental talent. He's
he gets it. It's not an act by any means.
So from a distance, you're always wondering wondering, wondering because
you hear him a lot of times when I'm telling
you it's it's it's real. And I'm a fan and
(13:28):
I wish him nothing but the best because I think
he's he is the kind of guy that really can't.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Stir the group up emotionally.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I know sometimes he may have gotten a little bit
gone the other direction emotionally, out of control when negative
things happen. I think he'll curtail that and control that
as we move forward. But overarching, man, fans dig this
group and I got a good feel about them.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
That's so cool to hear, and I'm glad it sounds
like a really really cool weekend, Joe, And it was
for you. I mean, you probably won't say this, but
I will. Hopefully this reignites, you know, more involvement for
you in Cubs universe. There's no reason why you should
not be the only manager walking this earth right now
who has won a championship with the Cubs. Should be
(14:13):
an integral part of that organization, not just on a
reunion weekend. So hopefully something else more comes out of
it for you with the Cubs in terms of that
relationship you mentioned, Uh, Breggy and he signed an interesting
contract last year with the Red Sox that now looks
like it might be I don't know a template and
what's going on in baseball. We're going to talk about
(14:35):
some of these contracts here with Bishett and Tucker. We'll
do that right after this on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
I mentioned the Bregman contract last year with the Red
Sox where he's getting paid about forty million dollars a
year with an opt out. So the Red Sox essentially
got about three good months out of Bregman because as
he had the leg injury there, he missed a couple
of months and it just did not have his timing
at the end of the year. It did not hit
well down the end and the meantime they had the
trade didn't have to, but they did trade Ralphie Old
(15:14):
Devers as a function of that signing. So allowing someone
signing it a huge high aav short term with an
opt out, he's out the door. What they have to
show for it other than maybe a draft pick here.
But you see now the higher AAVs short term contracts
sort of like the NBA contracts and We'll start with
(15:36):
Kyle Tucker's contract. Joe, it's just amazing to think that,
you know, four years, two hundred and forty million dollars.
Let me give you a couple of numbers here, because
it's not just that there is some deferred money here.
By the way, so his contract averages with present day
value about fifty seven million dollars. But when you factor
(15:56):
in the taxes that the La Dodgers have to pay
because they have a payroll above four hundred million dollars,
so they're the highest tier of tech penalties, Kyle Tucker
is going to cost the Dodgers one hundred and nineteen
point nine million dollars per year. That is more than
eleven teams are paying their entire rosters. So I get
(16:19):
it where these teams say, you know what, we don't
want to be on the hook at the back end
of these long, long contracts where guys in his decline
phase and we're paying premium money for it.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So let's just pay them a lot of money in
the short period of time.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
If you're the Dodgers, you defer a lot of it
because they're basically, you know, owned by Guggenheim, which can
invest the money in investment projects and products and make
some money off of that. They do have to fund
a lot deferred money, but that's not a problem for them.
So tell me what you think of this, Joe, Is
it a trending? Can more teams do that these high
(16:51):
average annual values over a short period of time, because
in four years, Kyle Tucker is going to make more
money than Barry Bonds made in his entire career.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
But not believe money versus time, right, I mean, if
you're you're in a position like the Dodgers are, they
like they're kind of like printing it. You just describe
how they could actually print money and versus time. I
think the way the modern front office works, they just
don't want to be on the hook with a particular
guy for a period of time. That I think, which
you're seeing right now, which I think it kind of
(17:22):
makes sense, is the heavy upload or frontloading of paying
these guys off just to make sure that, like you suggested,
at the end of their the age, when where the
client is probably or should or will happen, they don't
have to be on the hook and then they could
just move on from there. So I think obviously you
have to be in that kind of financial position to
work those kinds of contracts. So that's just going to
(17:42):
be unique to them and a couple other teams. There's
no nobody else is going to really be able to
want to do something like that. Several couple guys, but
the Dodgers do it as well as anybody because they're
in that position right now. They have absolutely performed on
the field, and so they're able to perform off the field,
and so they're probably the philosophical question is monopoly money
versus time, and so we have the monopoly money, so
(18:05):
let's just cut down on a time we get They
kind of went on both ends, and then the amount
that you said extrapolated over time. I mean still with
the CBA coming up next year, that could all be
curtailed in some regard, and that's just going to be
so curious how that all plays out. So everything's interconnected,
and they're they're kind of like you know, in a
(18:27):
position they they don't even have to worry about it.
The Dodgers, I mean, if they win their third in
a row, god, they could just ride that for a
while and feel pretty good about themselves. So they're still
going after number three, here comes the clicktive bargaining agreement.
We've already won three championships in a row, so we
could kind of uh surf along with this one until
it actually gets worked out. The last point is just loyalties.
(18:48):
Just talking about bregmant and all these new methods of
contracting people. You know, there was a time when, you know,
it was such a cool thing when your when your
favorite player played with your team forever. Obviously that's the
thing of the past, and loyalty as really, like a
lot of words in our society, have taken on a
different definition, where bias and truth have become the same.
(19:10):
Loyalty is definitely a one way straight I guess it
always has been, not been acknowledged necessarily, but to put
yourself as a player in a position to make a
lot of money and then have an opt out from
the player's perspective and the agent and not even from
the team's.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Perspective, they're okay with that.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I really believe they're okay with that, because again, the
loyalty issue, they always feel like they're going to be
able to generate or regenerate somebody in that position somehow,
So I think from the organizational perspective, they don't have
to worry about fans clamoring because they constantly get rid
of good guys or they're not loyal to this particular group.
It's just it's just part of the living room furniture. Now,
(19:50):
that's the way it is. So all these things are interesting,
but I think it's they're all explainable. I just think
it's a sign of the times and that's the way
the world works right now.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, I hadn't actually thought about that, Joe, You're absolutely right.
The there's no expectation of loyalty now among fans. Like
Pete Alonzo leaves the New York Mets. He's their all
time franchise home run hitter, drafted, developed play for no
other team but the New York Mets. He leaves. I
can't tell you there was a big outcry, like why
didn't they sign this guy? There really wasn't. It's like this,
(20:22):
and obviously you can extrapolate this bigger picture. With our society,
it's always like what's next, what's new? Give me something different,
give me new, And there's this demand I think on
teams to start. Maybe it's not a demand, but I
think there's a subtle pressure that you know, what have
you done lately? What kind of changes are coming? You know,
nobody wants to sit still, even when you have a
(20:42):
good team.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
So that's part and parcel of it.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And speaking of the Mets, by the way, Joe, I
think they are somewhat in the category of the Dodgers
because you know, Bashet's a really good player.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I like him a lot.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
I think, to me, Joe, he's one of these kind
of guys. He's always going to hit.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
He just has incredible bat to ball skills. He uses
the whole field. I like him a lot.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I don't think he's gonna have much of a problem
transitioning to third base, which will play for the New
York Mets.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
You know, he is a good athlete.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
He was a little miscast as a shortstop the last
couple of years, lack of range.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I think he'll be fine at third base. I'm not
worried about the defensive side there.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
And like I said, I think he's just a he's
a hitter, he's going to hit. But the Mets again
short term deal three years, one hundred and twenty six million,
so his forty two million per year with taxes equates
to eighty six million dollars per year for bo Chet.
Now he's a good player, impact player, franchise aircraft carrier. No,
(21:41):
so the Mets are somewhat in that Dodger category where
they going to afford to do that.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, I mean his I know his daddy had Dante
when nineteen eighty four instructional League in Mace Arizona, and
Dante was the same way incredible back to ball skills,
just did Dante was one of the better bat ball
hitters I've ever had, and hit it hard too, and
it's it's kind of like his it over into bow
and again it's almost what you're talking about regarding the
(22:07):
lack of loyalt here. However, we want to describe it
the new cycle. The new cycle changes. I mean, something
inappropriate or bad happens, just hold on, that's going to
go away. Something new is going to come out to
more and that's going to be yesterday's news, which is
almost like five years AGO's five year ago news. I
think part of it is in this generation with this
nobody's concerned about making a mistake giving out this kind
(22:30):
of dough anymore because it's analytically driven. And again we've
talked about this before, and my impression is that analytics
does provide a safety net for decision making. So whomever
is running organizations, whether it's from the top ownership down
to the front offices, the fact that they're doing this
more on data and information compared to you know, say
Jack McKeon standing in a smoky lobby trying to swing
(22:53):
a deal for this next shortstop based on field gun,
you know, gut intuition and good old baseball sense.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Completely different.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
And I think when you make mistakes now, based on
the way it's the information is generated.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
It's more forgivable. I think that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
So all this stuff is it's just again it's a
way of doing business right now, and when it doesn't work,
we'll just cast that aside, do something new because we
did it based on sound information and it didn't work out,
so we'll just move on to the next thing. And
I don't know that the level of accountability is great
for this kind of decision making compared to what it
(23:33):
once had been.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
And real quick the Mets picking up Luis Robert Junior
from the Chicago White Sox. They traded Luis en hell Acuna,
Who's I think a dynamic player. I'm not sure he's,
you know, a six hundred at bat guy the big leagues,
but he's He's got skills, There's no question about it.
So it wasn't like they picked him up for nothing.
But Robert to me, is a good kind of a
(23:55):
one year of flyer here. I know he's got an option,
I think, but man, it's hard to find center fielders
in the game today.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
The Mets needed a center fielder.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
He did play better the second half of last year,
as bad as the White Sox have been the last
few years, and I understand they're starting to turn a corner.
I like the idea of taking somebody off of that
organization and reinvigorating them. And he's young enough to me,
Joe that I think that the ceiling is still there.
I'm not sure he'll reach what we thought he was
going to reach in terms of the ceiling. His skills
(24:24):
are great, So taking a chance on a young guy
with really good skills at a position that's hard to find,
I'm okay with this move by the Mets. It could
not work out for them, But taking this quote unquote
chance on Luis Robert Junior.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I think is a good one for the New York Mets.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I love it, Actually, I do like it a lot.
I think he needs to be in a more accountable situation.
Going from the White Sox where there was absolutely zero expectations,
there's like a multitude of losses, like epic losses, and
I don't even know what the clubhouse was like there
at all. But they he needs to be on some
veteran players that are going to hold him more accountable
(25:04):
to his day. You know, I look at him, I
think of George Solaira. I love Jorge Silira is one
of my just favorite guys. He's just a wonderful guy.
But Georgie got better as he moved it along. Although
Georgie really performed well even back and when he before
he really established himself in the playoff situation, A really
always showed up. I think this guy with the right
folks around him, I'm talking about specific players. You got
(25:26):
a Lindor right there right now, Semeon and Polanco right
now first base and others on this team, that's what
he needs. I really do believe that. So I'd be curious.
I saw him, I saw him up front specimen, absolute specimen.
Kind of the thing that I didn't like about him
a little bit on the stiff side. I thought, like
(25:47):
robotic in spite of being a that's kind of a
contrary to like being a great athlete, but not really.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
The fluid kind of movements that you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
In a baseball player. And I think that if you
went to a scouting situation, you might discuss that or
talk about that in a meeting. So I'm curious, however,
look at Jo Odell. I mean, Joe Adell last year
had a kind of a break not kind of had
a breakout you're in, And Joe had that same kind
of patterns about him as a baseball player, not necessarily fluid,
(26:15):
but a great athlete. And I think Robert is kind
of along the same line. So I know Joe Odell
personally obviously, and he's one of my favorite players I've
ever had just as a person. I don't know Robert,
but I just think if you put the right group
around this guy from Jump Street, I mean, I would
definitely put his locker next to whomever I believe is
(26:37):
the most influential and best guy for him to talk
to on a daily Basis. I'd put his locker right
next to that guy, and I would tell that guy,
whomever it is, lindor whomever it's going to be, part
of his responsibility is to make sure that this guy
kind of gets it what he doesn't get right now.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
So I think it's a great sign. I do. I
love it.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
I actually I love what David Starrs is doing right now.
Everybody's complaining about a lot of stuff, but I like
what he's doing.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
And he's got the small market plan.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I get that, but I kind of like the small
mare I could plan because we're just talking about how
guys ship regardless over the every couple of years and
you have to be flexible, and I think he is.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
So I like it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
And to me, Polanco and Bashett two for lack of
a better word, term baseball players.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Right, And for a team that, let's face it, they
did have. They can deny it all they want, they
did have clubhouse issues last year. That was not the
same team in twenty five as they were in twenty
four for whatever reasons. But I like the kind of
personalities they brought in. In a great point. On Robert, I
would put him next to Lindor. I mean he is
to me the leader may be too strong of a word.
(27:40):
He just leads in a different kind of way. He
is your franchise guy. I know you've got Won Soto
there as well, but Lindor is just more outgoing. If
you will, Who's going to take somebody under his wing?
I think I like that idea. And speaking of center fielders,
the Hall of Fame vote, Joe Carlos Beltron and Andrew
Jones both elected to the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Congratulations to them.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
The Baseball Writers had elected only eight center fielders in
its history, going back almost eighty years before this vote,
and two are going in now. Beltron to me, obviously,
he paid a penalty his third year in because of
this twenty seventeen Astro sign stealing scandal.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
He was a big part of it. People, He was
a mastermind.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
He was the one who said, hey, let's put the
monitor right near the dugout so we can get these
images in real time and transfer them onto the field.
He's a guy who played for the Yikes previously got
to Houston, and he basically said, you guys are behind
the time. There was a lot going on with sign
stealing he took it to another level. I didn't like
the fact that he never, at the time anyway owned
up to it. He was asked about it, he said, no,
(28:42):
we don't do anything that's illegal. We're not using a
center field camera. He flied out light about it. He
was told by Brian McCann to stop.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
While it was going on. The manager A. J.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Hinch had busted the monitor twice a signal to the
team to knock it off, and they kept doing it
right through the postseason.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
So yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's I don't think it's an unforgivable it's an unforgettable
prime against the game to me. But it doesn't rise
to me the same level as peds, which are federally
controlled substances. And we've known for years and years and
years and years and years, going back to even Ben
Johnson in the nineteen eighties, that that's a shortcut that
is unethical in any kind of professional or even amateur sport.
(29:21):
This was something brand new that we didn't know was
even possible. And Andrew Jones, to me, is another guy.
He actually set a record.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
He debuted on the ballot at seven percent and in
nine years he got over the seventy five percent threshold
to seventy eight percent.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Why it takes so long. Yeah, there was a domestic
violence arrest. He's a guy who just.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Completely fell off the cliff at age thirty, basically didn't
take care of his body and wound up with an
OPS adjusted OPS of one to eleven, which is just hohum.
And you know, it took a while to appreciate that.
It is prime anyway, ten straight years averaging thirty five
home runs and winning the Gold Glove every year. So
that's where we're at in voting now, where we're looking
(30:04):
more at prime, the peak of somebody's career. It used
to be when I started voting, it was you need
peak and you needed longevity. It was much harder I started, Joe,
when three hundred game winners like Gaylord, Perry, Don Sutton,
Phil Nicro they needed three four five ballots to get in.
It's I'm not saying it was better than The voting
has evolved in some ways for the better. But first
(30:27):
of all, give me your take on seeing two center
fielders Beltron and Andrew Jones go in.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
You've managed and coached against both of them.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yeah, First of all, beltran I was a fan when
I first saw him with Kansas City.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Actually that was a.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Team I think Tony Muser was the manager. I can't
remember the exact years, but Johnny Damon was also on
that team, Germain Die, Joe Randa, Escobar, maybe there was
another shortstop that I really liked, Carlos Feblus, second base Sweeney,
then Montgomery and the bullpen. That team there, I could
(31:01):
not believe they broke it up because they were with
this with the Angels, and I thought, oh my god,
what is wrong with these people? That was like so
talented that group right there, They're just they were young,
they couldn't get it together yet, But my god, were
they talented. And Bell Tran switch hitter with you know,
pop from both sides ran just like this. He's one
(31:22):
of those easy athletes man, And it was just obvious
so of Kansas City had been a little bit more
patient there, they would have reaped through words a little
bit sooner.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
And I've always been a Beltran fan Andrew Jones.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
I didn't see as much being in an American league
most of the time. Obviously watched him a lot, and
there was a fluidity about his play too, and I know,
there was times that you know, Bobby Cox had issues
with him and how he went about his business, and
so from a player perspective, to me, it was easier
to see bel Trant as being a Hall of Famer
as opposed to Andrew Jones being Hall of Famer just
based on watching him on the field, the things that
(31:56):
you know Andrew did off the field, or and then
of course.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Bell Trand with the science deealing.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
The thing about that particularly to me, part of that
is Baseball's fault. I mean with the not being somewhat
aware that with the advanced technology as it was, to
not be a little bit more proactively involved in preventing
the potential of things being stolen because of all the
different things that are coming on board at that particular time.
(32:23):
They just you just have to stay ahead of those
things as new things arrive. To me, I would just
hire people that like say, okay, this is just starting
or happening. What's going to go sideways because of this
new addition to what we're doing on a major league level.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
So no nose, I mean it's their fault. I mean
they're the ones that are culpable.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
And I still believe that we should have stayed ahead
of that a little bit better. So, yeah, I bolt
are great players. Like I said, I saw Beltrand more,
but I also believe like you're saying, I mean, there
might have been a higher standard back then.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Numerically speaking, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I mean, the guys that are making it now, maybe
there's not as many that have built up those kind
of gaudy numbers that were built up in the past.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
Definitely not what's starting pitchers.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
They're not going to be permitted to get to the
point where they stay in games long enough to get
wins like they once were able to, or make that
many starts during the course of their career. All those
things are conspiring against starting pitchers to have that opportunity.
Hopefully the next one, one of the next ones would
be Johnny Lester getting that opportunity when.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
It's his time.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
So there's there's a lot to unpack with all that.
Tommy and these guys are absolutely great players. And you know,
I don't want to be biased to the previous generations
because that's what we grew up looking at the back
of baseball cards. These guys were like, and we didn't
you know, part of it was we didn't get to
see them all the time, so they were they were
larger than life. I mean without the streaming devices, being
able to watch your team play every night, all the
(33:43):
things that you can do right now, which I think
humanizes the players more than back in the day where
they were they were superhuman. They just were because we
got only had You had to show up at a
ballpark to see them, saw them once a week on
the game of the week or possibly mail Allen talking
about this week in baseball. Otherwise you didn't get to
see your guys, and so that really cast a large
(34:04):
ara about these fellows were compared to today and even
to the point with social media everything else. So anyway,
long answer, I think there's a good selections, but there's
there's so many different ways to view all this. And
you're one of the voters, so you get it as
well as anybody else does.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, one last quick note on the Hall of Fame vote.
The guys who didn't make it. It was a year
where it was it was not a strong ballot, if
you will, uh so you saw a lot of people
picking up games.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
There were four players who had double.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Digit gains, including Felix Hernandez who went up twenty five
point five percent. That ties a record for the biggest
year to year game. So if you're going to look
at Felix Hernandez and Cole Hamil's as Hall of famers,
and I'm not saying they're going to get in, but
they're tracking pretty well here, man, you got to go
look back and people like David Kohane and Brett Saberhagen
(34:57):
and Luis te On and Tommy Bridges and Urban Shocker
and Kevin Brown.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
There's a whole list of.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Guys who won more games through more innings with a
lower era than some of these guys were looking at.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
And I realized that the standards, as you said, Joe,
they're different.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
We're not seeing guys like Jack Morris taking the ball
in the eighth inning every start.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
I get that.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
But if the other guys were held to a much
higher standard and they see other guys who've accomplished less
going to the Hall of Fame, I mean there's a
lot of cleanup we need to do then to get
more people in who are not being held to these
new standards in the Hall of Fame. And if we're
going to talk about peaks, and you know, the Johann
Santanas of the world, the Tim Linscom's, the Madison bum Gardeners.
(35:38):
We have to go back and look at them now.
I'm just saying voting is very tricky. It constantly evolves.
This is nothing new. Back in the day when I
first started, people said, oh, only the inner circle guys.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
You could vote for them for the first year. They're
Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Like there was a different level unofficially, you know, so
guys like Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk, these guys had
to wait a couple of ballots or more to get in.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I'm glad that's gone your Hall of Famer. You're a
Hall of Famer. But it's a constantly evolving process.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I wouldn't take some of these numbers and say this
guy's definitely going in because he went up twenty two
percent this year or whatever it is. And just to
keep you abreast of what's on the horizon here. Next year,
Buster Posey is on the ballot along with Johnny Lester.
The year after that, Albert Poohols and Yadia Molina. The
year after that, Miguel Cabrera, Zach greenk Joey Evado. So
(36:29):
I think We're going to get back to the first
ballot Hall of Famers in the next three elections, and
after that it's pretty quiet in twenty thirty and after
that in twenty thirty one, it's long down the road.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I get it, Clayton Kershaw, so that just keep your
eye on that.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
The Hall of Fame wasn't a big surprise that we
got two center fielders in.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That's the way we thought it was going to go.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And what I want to do next, Joe and I
love talking to you about managers and coaches and methodologies.
I'm sure if you didn't watch it the championship game
college football, I mean, if you're not impressed with Kurt Signetti, man,
you're missing something here. I got to get Joe's take
on a guy who really impressed me as a.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Manager of players and managing a game.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
We're going to talk about that right after this on
the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
The look of Kurt Signetti on the sidelines there, it
doesn't remind you of anybody.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I mean, he's got a great game face.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
Adam Siminski, I knew you were going to go there.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
High school football coach, My god, his teeth would fall
out when it was I go to talk to him
on the sideline, and he would only wear a short
sleeve shirt. He would not wear a long sleep short
or a jacket to prove to us, you know, it's
not cold when it was cold, and he had his
teeth on the side kind of knocked out by Alan
Amichi when he was playing at Michigan State, like hooked
on and he get to rattle in and gets so
(38:06):
cold that these suckers would fall out while I was
talking to him. Sometimes he'd reached out, pick him up
and put him back in. So that was a look
that none of us will ever forget. And we all
love them too. I mean, you could not be tougher
than him, it was impossible. So yes, I've been through
the look. And then I said Erstad because I always
love Ersty's scowl.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
When he was did not approve of what was going
on around.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
If Signetti's got that look, and I would say that
coach Sabin probably has that look too, So Signetti Sabin,
I think that's those are like, even though Signetti has
not had the success that Sabin's had, but these are
guys that when it comes to young players, I don't
know Saban really wasn't as successful as pro wise, and
I don't know if Signetti would be too. But on
(38:52):
the level that they're working right now, their combination of
intellectual wisdom and their ability to get their point across,
and there's such great speakers in regard to getting their
point across along with this visual that's going to scare
the crap out of any twenty year old.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
I was lucky enough that my high school football coach
was my dad, and he was He was awesome, There's
no question about it. So I was coached at home
as well as on the football field. But there was
a quality that he had that Signetti has and Joe
Madden has as a manager, and that is that I'm
not saying this because I was his son, because I
(39:28):
saw it happen with everybody else of the team.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Where you don't want to disappoint the coach.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
That is a powerful quality if you can engender the trust,
and that's essentially what it is. And I see that
with the way Indiana plays, they do not want to
disappoint their coach. Sometimes the coaches are alienated from their players.
Like you could create attention if you will, and players
like I'm going to show this guy. But in this case,
(39:56):
it's pure trust I see and the other thing I saw.
And this is why I brought this up, because we
know about you know, his look on the sidelines, and
we know he's got the trust of his players. But
the way he ran that game, you know, twice going
forward on fourth down. The first time, he knows that
he's got this kid at Becker, the wide receiver who
(40:16):
literally has not dropped the ball all year. I just
throw it to his back shoulder and he's going to
find a way to catch the base with the football.
And then after the field goal team comes on on
fourth down closer to the goal line, he's like, wait
a second. You know, having a field goal still allows
them to win the game with a touchdown. We need
(40:36):
to go bigger than that puts the offense back on
the field. It was interesting that he thought that he
saw Miami in a certain defense and if they showed
the same look on fourth down, he called the quarterback drop,
which they don't run a whole lot, and that's exactly
what Miami did, and the play worked perfectly. They score
the touchdown, and then at the end of the game,
Joe Miami's driving down the field. They have no timeouts left.
(40:58):
How many times have you seeing the defensive team actually
call a time out, essentially doing a favor for the
team that's out of timeouts. But he did it because
he saw there was a little bit of I don't
want to say they were confused, but they were out
of sorts a little bit. Their defense calls time out,
settles the game, they intercept the ball the next play.
(41:20):
I was just so impressed by the way he had
everything under control when the game was really at its
most urgent and critical moments.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
He did a lot of his work off Broadway, right,
was it, James Madison? Yeah, I drive by that place
on the way to Florida all the time. It's a
really good looking ballpark two so it's right off Interstate
eighty one, Purple seats, kind of big. But guys like that,
when you get a chance to do your workoff Broadway,
you could try things, You could do different things. It's
(41:49):
an easel or open canvas that you could just create
and again try things, and if they don't work, we
could re evaluate and move on. And I'm saying that
because I felt the same way coming up on all
the backfields that I worked on, all the outposts that
I worked on where you see a you see what
he does in the National Championship game. But to him,
he had done that several other times. It was in
his head. He'd been in different situations where we've talked
(42:12):
about Phil Venterino and El Paso, where I screwed that
one up? Or the time I put want ads on
the back of toilet stalls in Midland, how I screwed.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
That one up?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Or when I, you know, started working a five man
defense back in the minor leagues and then that worked
a couple of times. You know, there's the outpost is
a great place. Off Broadway is a great place to
grow and really try things that are you. And of
course we're all plagiarists, so you know, you get the idea.
I got the idea of the five man from watching
Gene and I think Billy Martin too, But then again,
(42:44):
it has to be years and how do you practice it,
how do you apply it, and et cetera, et cetera,
and what are the mechanics of it? So I that's
what I see with a guy like Signetti. He worked
off Broadway and with that he's able to hone all
of this, and to his credit, when he got on Broadway,
he didn't change anything. He's still the same cat. And
(43:04):
that's that's where a lot of guys make mistakes. So
when you are successful, when you get elevated, there's this
perceived need to change and to do something differently because
all of a sudden, I am here and he did
not do that.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Yeah, just amazing job he did there in two years,
turned around a program that had no history of success.
Really know, and it just really impressive. I knew that
you noticed that in the job that he did, so
really enjoyed your perspective there. And speaking of perspective, Joe,
I mean, you're just back from Chicago. This is your
chance to end this episode of the Book of Joe.
(43:42):
I'm not sure if you're going to go to Carl Sandberg.
You got a Chicago theme here after getting a taste
of the Windy city, What do you have for us
this time?
Speaker 4 (43:49):
I was going with greatness. I was going with the
Hall of Fame on this one.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
So I was researching different thoughts and ideas with that,
and there's so many wonderful people involved in and got
a couple but I'm gonna start with Hemingway. There's nothing
noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility
is being superior to your former self. And that reminded
me of something I always thought, as you ascend, I
(44:16):
wasn't competing against anybody else. I was competing against myself.
So as I moved up the ladder doing whatever I wanted,
a better version of me on an annual basis, whether
it was what I was saying, how I was saying it,
how I presenting it, the same thing, kind of adding
to my abilities, whatever it might be, through going to
(44:38):
a clinic, talking to a more experienced coach, manager, from
an office, whatever it was, You're always looking to add
to what got you to that particular point. So just
trying to condense and putting, in my words, compete against
yourself to be better.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
That's what I always did. And I was really.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Very aware of that, really aware of it, and again
as part of the gratitude I had for not getting
any kind of particular job way before it was my
time to get it. And then finally with mister Churchill,
the price, the price of greatness is responsibility. It gets
lonely at the top, doesn't it. I mean, that's what
they say, and it's true. When you're the dude that
(45:20):
has to make the final decision, you can be lonely
because you I say, you know, hopefully, if it's more
than fifty percent agree with you, that'd be wonderful. But
if you even get fifty one percent, you're you're lucky.
So you have to be willing to take along that responsibility.
And regarding Major League Baseball players becoming Hall of famers,
the responsibility of sacrifice, personal sacrifice, work a little bit more,
(45:43):
a couple more, a couple more, with this, couple.
Speaker 4 (45:45):
More of that.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
So these guys that were talking about if you could
roll back the tape of somebody who was a videographer
with them every step of the way to the point
where they get in the Hall of Fame, we're going
to see a dude that was worked a lot, had
a lot of failures, never quit, and got better because
of it.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
So that's what I thought about for today.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
I was thinking about the Hall of Fame and to
compete against yourself to become better. And then the price
of greatness is responsibility that you've earned by being in
that position. And it's very important to understand that and
the accountability of it.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Great stuff, Joe.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I really liked the Hemingway angle there of competing against yourself,
always just trying to be better in every little way.
That's why, you know, I hear people and I hear
this term brain rot. People were just scrolling on their
phones absent mindedly. How is that making you better? I
don't understand that, complete waste of time. And I've always
I've always sort of lived by that, Joe, and I
(46:38):
hadn't heard that Hemingway quote before, So I appreciate that
for you bringing that up.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
I mean, I've really always felt that when you're right
about the the the amateurs really.
Speaker 4 (46:51):
Consuming most of our time.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
I mean, that was a concern I've had several years
ago when at the advent of social media, because basically
everybody becomes a reporter and it kind of minimizes the
actual professionals.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
People that have.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Gone to go forward have sat locker room talking sports wise,
in a locker room, a dirty locker room, in the
minor leagues, whatever, honeing your craft. Eventually, move move, move up,
and you get to the point where you have credibility
among the people you're talking to and then eventually you
become who you are and it's earned. Whereas today, if
you have a telephone, small production crew, all of a sudden,
(47:26):
you become a journalist, which is really annoying because there's
no level of accountability with that. They could say whatever
they want. And that's the part about all that that
bothers me. And that's the part that from jump Street
I'm talking about. When I first this first came on board,
that was my concern was the fact that now we're
going to have amateurs running this whole thing, and the
(47:48):
professionals are going to be pushed aside because obviously the
amateurs gonna say whatever they want to get away with it.
The pros had to really validate and research what they
were going to put out there and write and and
and have to back it up, which is not necessarily
true anymore. So that's what I that's what I think
about with all of this. I love the idea that
you know yourself, and there's so many others. I just
(48:08):
was texting with Joel Sherman. You say, people that I
really respect in the industry. Too many times I'll read
an article and to be kind of scathing, and then
I look at who wrote it, and it's normallysch to
some young person that really has not built relationships, done time,
really researched whatever, and it's purely based on hopefully getting
some kind of attention for it.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
Not good, not good.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
And that's that's the part of the social media world
that I find discouraging.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Great stuff.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Joe, We'll see you next time of the Book of Joe,
and happy tenth anniversary year.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Thank you brother.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
I'm looking forward to Well, it's the next We're gonna
be fifteen or twenty. You're supposed to go every five
years from now on, aren't you.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Absolutely, I'll do it every year.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Yeah, Hey, we've talked about that. It was that much fun.
Thanks brother.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcast from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Fox Sports Radio News
Host
Jonas Knox
Popular Podcasts
Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics
Two Guys (Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers). Five Rings (you know, from the Olympics logo). One essential podcast for the 2026 Milan-Cortina Winter Olympics. Bowen Yang (SNL, Wicked) and Matt Rogers (Palm Royale, No Good Deed) of Las Culturistas are back for a second season of Two Guys, Five Rings, a collaboration with NBC Sports and iHeartRadio. In this 15-episode event, Bowen and Matt discuss the top storylines, obsess over Italian culture, and find out what really goes on in the Olympic Village.
iHeartOlympics: The Latest
Listen to the latest news from the 2026 Winter Olympics.
Milan Cortina Winter Olympics
The 2026 Winter Olympics in Milan Cortina are here and have everyone talking. iHeartPodcasts is buzzing with content in honor of the XXV Winter Olympics We’re bringing you episodes from a variety of iHeartPodcast shows to help you keep up with the action. Follow Milan Cortina Winter Olympics so you don’t miss any coverage of the 2026 Winter Olympics, and if you like what you hear, be sure to follow each Podcast in the feed for more great content from iHeartPodcasts.