The Book of Joe: Home runs and Halloween

The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon begins with Halloween memories of parties and costumes.  How has the World Series gotten to 1-1 and what has Joe seen early from the managers?  Tom reveals what he expects to see with tonight's pitching matchup.  We look at Tommy Pham's importance to this Arizona team and why Torey Lovullo reminds Tom of Joe Maddon.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back. It's The Book of Joe Podcast,
World Series Edition. I'm Tom Berducci. He's Joe Madden. Joe.
How you doing good?

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Tommy?

Speaker 3 (00:25):
I didn't realize we're three hours difference out there in Arizona.
My kids are there even realize that that we just
dropped like maybe two hours different.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
So early tip of the hat to you this morning. Man.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I could never keep it straight. Sometimes it's three, sometimes
it's two. Right now it happens to be three, and
we're at Halloween eve. How about that it's Halloween already, Joe.
Do you have a favorite like Halloween costume that you
had or a Halloween story as a kid?

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Was a kid, I went to my cousin's crazy in
a little hamlet, little whatever you want to call it.
A Harwood was the name of the little town. And
it's about four or five miles from where I just
pointed my hand and cousin Joe Seppin, and he took
me this old schoolhouse. I mean, if I showed you
a picture of it, now you think, God, it might

(01:14):
have been eighteen fifty or whatever it was that antiqueish,
So I went.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
There as you know, Tom and Jerry.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
I can't remember if I was Tom or Jerry, the
cat or the mouse, but I went there as one
of the two and walked into this old school with
kids that I didn't even know, petrified and you walk
down a dirt road, you go into this old yellow building,
You go into this room and you're having a good time,
but you're scared out of your mind at the same time.
But my trip to Hartwood Minds is actually the name

(01:41):
of the little town. Cousin Joe Seppin as either Tom
or Jerry, cater or mouse in it is frightening Tom,
when you're that young. I mean, there's some kids that
adapt so well to My granddaughter Carson would like not
even blanche about something like that. But at that time
I was afraid to sleep in any bed but my own,

(02:02):
so there was a certain amount of a concern as
I walked into that old decrepit school.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Building, Tom and Jerry. It brings me back one year
in college as a freshman. My roommate was named Jerry,
and we had had a comic front page of the
comic strip Tom and Jerry on our shore for me
at the Calloween. I think about two things. One time,
when I was a kid, I didn't have a costume.
I threw something together last minute. I decided I was

(02:28):
going to be a track athlete. So going out the door,
remember it's October thirty. First, I'm going out the door
and like a running singlet in shorts. My mom said,
what are you doing? Get back there? Come up with
something else. I didn't know what I came up with,
but I wasn't going out in the middle of the
night with a tank top and shorts. And the other
was after freshman football practice, right a bunch of us

(02:49):
started walking around the neighborhood after practice with our football uniforms.
We used our helmets as bags. Gets some a little
bit of candy that night, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
And the other time with the Cubs, we went to
Cleveland to play after we won Game five, to play
six and seven in Cleveland on Halloween night. I'm pretty
sure because I had this really bizarre shyness ty. It's
made by a company called Chinesety out of Boulder, Colorado,
shoot with like this macabre kind of a hatchets and

(03:18):
blood and all kinds of things on my suit as
they walked to the bus as some pictures of that,
so that should actually live for a long time.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
I believe it's amazing how Halloween has become a grown
up holiday. It used to be a big kids thing,
and now it is. Everybody's dressing up. And I think
at the ballpark for Game four Halloween night, you'll see,
if not for Game three, you'll see plenty of costumes
at Chase Field in Arizona. This World Series, Joe, we're
tied one game apiece. Give me your quick thoughts on

(03:47):
how we got to one one after two.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah, I mean, like we had talked about before we began,
Arizona is really an interesting team to watch play baseball.
I thought, you know, quite frankly, they should be two
and one. We all agree with that. I mean, Seawall
has been so good. He makes one mistake to the
to Seeger and all of a sudden, it's a they
win that first game.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
We get to one on one.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
I typically we talked about this with the Diamondbacks, to
their ability to come back not only in a game,
but now you're seeing it in a series. There's a
there's a high level of enthusiasm and energy among this group,
right now and we're all talking about the throwback game.
And yes, it's it's wonderful to watch the pitcher, Kelly pitching.
He wasn't out there just trying to spin the ball

(04:31):
at the top of the strike zone. They're stealing bags
or taking extra bases. They're Bunny, even long ago, bunning
for a hit, which just permeates the rest of the team.
When a veteran player like that attempts to give himself
up for the greater good, they are really demonstrating, you know,
what we've learned about, we talked about, we learned in
the eighties, primarily seventies and eighties, that style of baseball

(04:55):
that is baseball, that's not a style that is baseball.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
So you know, quite frankly, I'm really rooting for that
right now.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
It's and not to denigrate the Rangers at all, you know,
they they're doing a nice job and they still may
win this whole thing, absolutely, but to rubber stamp this
whole thing with the Diamondbacks. At the end of this poem,
you see Diamondbacks role series winners and really.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Taken to heart.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
You know, they they've they've probably ingratiated the new rules
changes as well as anybody and uh ingratiated with and
and on top of that, they're just playing this very
interesting game of baseball that how could you how could
you not agree with that? Uh?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
The Yes Day have power.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yes they can hit home runs, but they're they're able
to do different things in different ways. I've always said,
I want it all. I want power, I want the
ability to move the baseball. I want to hit and run.
I want to put score running from there with us
in two outs. I want pitchers going the third time
with the batting owner because they know how to pitch,
and they have more than two pitches.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
All this stuff that's what we're seeing on display right now.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, Bengo, I'm glad you said that, Joe get to
this in the moment, because I think some of the
small ball stuff is getting way overrated. But as far
as the series, yes, I think that d Bax could
be up to nothing. The pitch from seawalld to me
in my book, that's not a mistake. It's a fastball
top of the zone. Now I know Seger dead fastball,
hit or first pitch, I get it. Paul Sewald had

(06:22):
thrown two years worth of fastballs at the top of
his own and nobody had hit a home run on
that pitch. Gives Seager credit. That was an amazing job
of hitting. Adulis Garcia wins the game with another amazing
job of hitting. It's a sinker down on the zone
from Castro high nineties that he just carves out to
the opposite field. Those were not two bad pitches. That
was great hitting that defeated the Diamondbacks that night. So

(06:46):
we've got that. But I like what you said, Joe.
You still want power now if you'll have to realize
that we're not going to see the return of what
he Herzog's Royals or Cardinals. What you want is a
team like the Diamondbacks that has a diversity of ways
to win a game, and not everybody has the kind
of speed that they have. I mean, they pressure you
even when they don't run. Because the fielders know the

(07:08):
clock in their head is moving quickly. Pitchers have to
be quicker to the plate. I love the fact that
the game is played, as Tory Labello likes to say,
fast and loose, right. I actually did not like Longoria's
bunt his first time up. He's in the eighth spot
in the lineup, leadoff guys on base, left handed pitcher
on the mound. Longoria. We've seen him already. Carb hits

(07:28):
the other way that fold on the right side is
wide open. I don't like bunting up to the number
nine hitter for the out there. I didn't like that,
But I like the thought process, if that makes any sense.
Here's Evan Longoria with one career sack in his career,
and he is part of this team and this is
how they play. Nothing's off the table. That's what I

(07:49):
like about Arizona. They have multiple ways to win a game.
And right Joe, they do have some power there too,
and once Christian Walker gets going, you're gonna see that. Still,
the biggest thing that's going to influence the outcome of
the game is out homering your opponent period. The winning
percentages is like, uh, you can't do that all the time, though,
And that's what I love about Arizona. If you don't

(08:11):
have a home run, they can still beat you in
other ways. That's what I think, Joe, other teams should
be chasing, and especially with the new rules. To me,
like Corbyn Carroll, he is the pre eminent player that
you want to find now you know he puts the
ball in play, he's got some slug he's a good defender.
But if you got an over eighty percent success rate,
give you more of those guys that can pressure the
other team.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
What is harder to game plan against?

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Oh, no question.

Speaker 3 (08:35):
Simeon and Seger or Martin Carroll. I mean at the
first two guys in the batting room. I'm just I
was thinking about that yesterday or today whatever, just purely
from game planning perspective. To me, it's more difficult Martine
and Carol as opposed to Simon and Siagret. I still
believe you plan against Simey and you you get try
to get ahead, and then you just expand his own
and then you never pitch the secret. That's I still

(08:57):
believe that. I still believe that secret is that good.
But those other two guys, Martain Carroll, they both have
a little pop, but they also once they get on there,
the mindset of the pitcher.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Changes, the mindset of the defense changes.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
There's there's more, there's more arrows coming at this at
you when those two guys get out there. So if
I was in a meeting, in a pre series meeting,
and I got, you know, I got Simeon and Sieger
hitting well, and I.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Got Martin Carroll both hitting well.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Man, I think, you know, again, from a game planning perspective,
I think it'd be easier or I would be prefer
I don't want to say easier, prefer planning against the
first two hitters of the Rangers lineup as approach to
the first two hitters of the Diamondbacks line up.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
I'm with you, Joe, and I think because of all
the things we talked about, it's not just the pitches
you have to make, it's once they do get on base,
and the way it's going to affect everybody on defense.
That's not really going to happen with Simon and Sieger.
They're going to wait for Garcia behind them hit the
ball out of the park. One thing on Sieger, that
home running hit off seawalled, you know, as amazing as
it was, I can tell you for a fact that
kind of put a shock in the system of the Diamondbacks.

(10:03):
I belie leave you will not see the Diamondbacks throw
another fastball in the zone to Corey's Sieger.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
And then what they.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Want to do? He fit He hunts fastballs doesn't miss them.
They now know that. So what they're going to do
and what they did, Kelly did this perfectly in game two.
You throw Corey Seger pitches that look like fastballs to
get him to swing out. What are we talking about.
We're talking about change ups and cutters. You can't challenge
him at any point. First pitch three doesn't matter with

(10:31):
a fastball in the zone. You want to show him
a fastball in the zone or out of the zone
maybe once in a while. In fact, in game two,
they threw Corey Seeger one fastball the entire game and
it was way outside the zone. So keep an eye
on that going forward. They will not challenge Seger. I mean,
they won't pitch to him, but they'll take advantage of
his progressiveness by throwing him cutters and changeups that look

(10:53):
like fastballs. And you better not miss with those either,
by the way, but to get hit, go all off
the barrel. Don't challenge him with a fastball.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
I mean, and.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
Listen, I figured that out with the Angels there. It
might have been a second year middle or my sophomore
or junior year. It was it was like it was safe.
I'm watching from the sidelines said, damn, this is really obvious.
And I went to I don't know it was Wiser,
Eddie Wise or whomever I spoke with. Right after that,

(11:22):
I said, listen, no more strikes to this guy. I
mean no more like you're saying hit able strikes. I
wanted to test his patience. I felt you could frustrate
him to the point where he's going to start chasing
your pitch. But if you think you've set him up
for anything, you have not. And like I said, if
you think you've set him up for fastball anywhere in

(11:43):
his own you have not. And it's not unlike Vladimir
Guerrero when I had Vladdie on the other side, when
I was working against him, I used to tell my guys, listen,
don't ever think you have him set up for anything.
Don't ever especially a breaking ball. He's not set up.
I promise he's not set up. So you have Sometimes
what happens. His pitchers say, well, he hasn't seen I

(12:04):
fast board, he hasn't seen my slider, he hasn't seen
Matty Garza said that one time, and the ball is
still going. It might have been about David Ortiz, so
you know, these are the kind of things you got
to put your eg in the back pocket. It's the
part of game planning to me that is very interesting
and very very effective. And that's where Mike Borsella was

(12:26):
so good and Danny Herron. So Herron and Borsey are
kind of like they're not kind of cut from the
same cloth. They are, And I think Danny got a
lot of his inspiration of methods from Borzy. For a
couple of years, I used to do postgame press conferences
and I would say that team got Borzello tonight because
I would sit there and watch the whole thing unfold.

(12:48):
It's it's about breaking this down to the point where
it's usable. It's it's usable information. Small nuggets in the
dugout could be transmitted very quickly, talked about before, but
transmitted during the game. That Silman sometimes you forget, Catcher forgets,
Pitcher forgets. It could be transmitted very easily with a

(13:08):
really good game planner. So that's what I'm seeing. I
saw that we're seeing that with Danny and Haron versus
the Ringers right now. I'd be surprised. You're right, I mean,
I can't just I mean, we talked about Seawell's pitch,
but I just think I know how hard is elevated
fastball is Seger was looking for that. He was sold

(13:29):
out to that pitch. Absolutely a big dog. He sold
out to it. And that's why I was able to
get there on time.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, Hey, I'm glad you brought up Danny Heron. Now,
as you mentioned run prevention coordinator, I think that's his title,
but it's pretty much what he does with the Arizona
Diamondbacks because if you've been watching this postseason, man, I
think coming up with game plans and adapting the course
of the game has been so much of what's winning
and losing this game. And we got some good stories
to tell you about how the Diamondbacks are doing that.

(13:56):
We're going to get back to that right after this. Okay, Joe,
game planning, it's huge I'm seeing in this series so far.
Texas and they came in mad red hot.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Right.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
What was the talk about the World Series was the Rangers,
the depth of the lineup, how they can hurt you quickly.
Put it's like a fast break offense. They get rolling,
it's just hard to stop. Well, Arizona stopped them the
two home runs really save them in game with number one.
Otherwise Texas is hitting a buck eighty eight. And if
you watch Merrill Kelly pitch in Game two, my goodness,

(14:36):
what a toward the force of precision pitching he put
on in that game. I think he threw about eighty
nine or ninety pitches, none more than ninety five. The
pitch he used the most was to change up everything
on the edge. When the Rangers were aggressive early in
the count, he made sure he had his pitches right
off the edge get them the chase. When they were
giving him early strikes, he was putting them on the

(14:57):
edge to get those strikes. It was just amazing to watch.
And I want to talk about the two pitching coaches,
Mike and Brent Strom. Mike Maddox has been a pitching
coach for twenty one years in the big leagues. Brent Strom,
I believe it's thirty three years as a pitching coach.
If you don't think that matters, folks, you're missing something.
Because these guys not only are putting together game plans,

(15:18):
they're making adjustments on the fly. They're reacting to what
the hitters are telling them in the course of a game,
and I think both have done an amazing job. They're
both great at mound visits. You're paying attention to these games,
you see how they slow the game down with the
pitch timer. Mound visits are even more important than ever.
Strom and Maddix will both go out there when a
pitcher's pitch count is getting up towards thirty. Sometimes it's

(15:41):
not to go over scouting reports. People love to say,
oh he's going over the scouting report. No, slow the
game down. Give your pitcher literally a physical breather, get
a reboot at that point, let them get back to work.
So I'll get more into that, Joe, But I want
your take on the value of these experienced pitching coaches.
I'm seeing it. I don't know if the fans are
seeing it, but I'm seeing it throughout the postseason, especially

(16:03):
here in the World World Series.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Oh my god, of course. I mean.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
My first real mentor with all of this was Marcel Latchman.
Latch is still working in some capacity with the Colorado
Rockies for years. I saw the impact latch had on
those really good Angel staffs with Jimmy Abbott, Mark Langston,
Chuck Finley. Even before that, Bruce Keyson, Kenny Forsch, Tommy John,

(16:29):
Tommy John and Jeff saw In love Marshall and to
this day, if I have a question, I'm going to
go to Marcel. I'm going to go to Latch and
ask him about it, because the guy had such a.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Great way I've been partying.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
His information is such a wonderful calming influence on a
picture during the course game. Furthermore, the thing I love
about Marshall and Joe Colem was another one I had
junior for a long time. Their ability to help a
pitcher make an adaptation during the course of the game
based on what he's seeing. Just by watching the picture.
He knows when he's off, he knows something that they

(17:02):
had worked on that is not working right now. And
Marcel was always a big proponent of the breath, just
being able to breathe in a moment. So that's an
example I've had, you know, uh with the and I
talked about the game planning and we talked.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
We had Mike Borsello on our program earlier this year.
I've seen it. I watch it, I listened to it
in the dugout.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
That's to me, these guys, if you could hire a
Borzello or a Danny Herron to compliment a a Brent
Strom and uh and Maddox.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Every organization, that's what you should be striving for.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
It. It's normally somebody with the experience, a former pitcher
with the brain. I think the White Sox is tired.
Brian Banister, I believe Banny's another guy. That's another guy
that is from this school of thought. Many example, the
last out of the World Series twenty sixteen, Michael Martinez
chopper to third versus Mikey Montgomery.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
We've gone over this, but Bors he knew. He knew that.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
Martinez said, like, one hundred against leftendant curveballs, that's it.
So he had this little sign with Mickey Montero, we're
doing nothing but curve, nothing but curve, nothing but curve
this whole at bat, and Money had a decent hook
and you got a chopper to third base. As an example,
this is game planning. This is the ability to impact

(18:26):
the game in the moment. This is what real major
league coaches do. And it's not just working off with
the script, although that had something to do with that,
but it's the ability to communicate during the game, watch
the game and make adaptations as it's in progress. A
Maddex goes out there, covers his mouth all the time.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
St.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
Strawbie used to go out more, I thought, And it's
probably the rule changes when he was with Houston. But nevertheless,
the language, the commentary they're speaking like you're saying, it's
not all this dissertation. When they go out there, it's
normally a break or maybe to remind him about one
little thing, but it's not a dissertation. And furthermore, it's
just the influence when if you have a good relationship

(19:06):
with your pitching coach, when he comes out there in
that hot moment, I know from a catcher's perspective, the
same thing.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
It settles things down, man, and.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
This guy speaking that same nice slow language that you
heard before the game that gets you in that back
into that space that permits you then to go out
and locate or make that pitch. And it could just
be something like, hey, they sometimes they choreograph we're going
to go we're gonna go elevated fastball, the we're just
going to bury three breaking balls underneath them. As an example,
they'll choreograph the hole at bat with. Of course they

(19:36):
can send them both the pitcher and a catcher. This
is what's happening there, man. And so I'm I'm running
an organization. I'm hiring Mike Borsello right off the street
right now or somebody like that, and I'm among my
young coaches. I'm going to nurture that ability and understand
how to do this, not only the breakdown prior to

(19:58):
the game, but how to be helpful during the game.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, I think Joe, especially in the post season, you
know it's it's it really can win a game for you.
There's no question. I love your example about the curve
ball from Montgomery to Martinez. There's a lot that we
don't see and don't know about, pitched by pitch, inning
by inning. One example for you with Brent Strom. The
guy pitching for Game three tonight is Brandon Fought, who

(20:24):
actually was devoted. This is amazing. Demoted to the minor
leagues three times this year, did not make the team
in spring training, goes to Reno, comes back, makes about
five starts or appearances for Arizona. They sent him back down,
comes back to Arizona, makes one appearance. They sent him
back down. Each time Brent Strown gave him something to

(20:45):
work on. In one case, it was throw fewer fastballs.
This is a kid in Triple A struck out more
than two hundred batters just throwing his fastball past Triple
A hitters. He it's not a high ve low pitch,
but he's got tremendous extension. He's got a low arm angle,
and the Triple A hitters weren't catching up to it.
Guess what major league hitters. They're slugging six point fifty

(21:06):
against his fastball. So Strom said, go down to the
minor leagues, work on your secondary pitches. You're going to
need those more often in the big leagues. Did that
The other thing that he did, Joe, he moved him
on the pitching rubber. This is a kid who would
pitch on the third base side of the rubber. And
I mentioned he's got this low release point, so the
ball was coming of his hand literally offset to the plate.

(21:27):
So the ball is not on the plate out of
his hand. So in too many cases he's not getting
swings and misses because hitters are reading ball out of
the hand and each pitch can't tunnel off the next
one when it's starting so off center. What does Strom do?
He moves him to the first base side of the rubber.
Now his hand when he releases the baseball is in

(21:47):
line with home plate. Now, as a hitter, that pitch
out of his hand is competitive as as soon as
it leaves his hand. Now you have to think, is
that a fastball, it's going to stay straight? Is it
going to go down? Curveball? Change up? Is it going
to go away from me? Is the hitter that's a sweeper?
Is he going to come into me? That's a two seemer.

(22:08):
Everything works off the pitch being competitive. Nobody does this
better in baseball than Garrett Cole. And it was Brent
Strom who did that with Garrett Cole in Houston as well.
So there's reasons why these pitching coaches are getting things done.
And now this kid is pitching Game three of the
World Series. He has the highest, the best strikeout to
walk ratio of any rookie pitcher in the history of

(22:29):
postseason ball. I'm telling you, look at the game in
Game three, and Max Schurz has got some still rust
on him. And you've got a kid who's been thrown
in the minor league three times, and right now, the
kid who went to the minor League three time is
bringing better stuff from the mountain to Max Schurz. And
I think the way Brent Strong works as the pitchers
has a whole lot to do with that.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
You know, just has nothing to do with anything except
that you're talking about adjustments by pitching coaches with pitchers.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
The bullpen coach with the Diamondbacks, Mike Beetters wonderful.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
I love Pat. That was original Angel. He was struggling
one of the nastiest sinkers you've ever seen. So what
does Marcel do. He makes him throw his glove out
in front of his face, uh, and with part of
his wind up to really make sure that he pulls
down and gets on top of the baseball. He was
a short strider with this nasty sink and just an

(23:19):
adjustment that Marcel gave to him. There was nobody that
you know, Marcell had done that probably in the past,
whether it was at USC or pitching with the Oaklan Age,
but he saw somebody do it or heard it at
some stop along the minor league way or big leagues.
Throw you throw your glove in front of your face
and really pulled down hard with your left arm and
see what happens. Wow, I mean it was, it was
really electric, an electric singer. Now, Michael was prone to

(23:42):
bounce the ball a little bit from the home place
he had As a catcher, you get balpened on occasion.
But this is an example that they'll they'll see somebody,
they'll look at him, and they'll make the physical adjustment
based on history. What do I know from my pass
as a player, myself or different players I'd worked with,
and Fett became a very very productive major league relief
pitcher with a nasty sinker based on them suggested for

(24:04):
more self.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
In my mind's eye, I can still see Mike Feeder's
delivery there and that glove flashing towards the hitter. Y
as I didn't know the background too. That's a great story.
One more switch I have for you. You didn't mention this
also with Brandon Fought. You talk about the delivery. He
had this and you've seen it before, Joe or guys
at the top of their delivery, they may tap the
ball their glove, they take it out, put it back in.

(24:29):
He did have one of those you want to call
it a tick whatever, He did have one of those
and always did and actually used that in game one
of the Wildcard series. It wasn't good. He gave up
seven hits, gave up three runs. He comes back his
next start and the ball is in his glove throughout
the top of his delivery. They took it out. This

(24:50):
is in the course of the postseason. Now, I would
imagine Brandon's probably been thrown that way his whole life,
or most of it, and he's been almost unhittable since
that change. So somebody keeping an eye on tonight when
he takes the top of the delivery leg up, the
ball is staying in the glove. Now you know Joe
in the game. Today, teams actually are using AI. They've
got cameras on all these pictures to see is this

(25:13):
guy giving me any tells. It used to be it
took somebody like a ride carew and your dugout to
have eyes on the picture and say, hey, this is
what he's doing. Now they use these algorithms and can
see if he's doing something different. I'm not sure if
base coaches were able to see his grip as he
took the ball at the glove, or it was just
something that you know, was throwing off his timing. I'm
not sure the reason for it, but they took it

(25:33):
out and he's been lights out ever since.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Probably, like you're saying, a timing mechanism, and maybe the
timing of the pack could have differed and all of
a sudden you're either quick or late, just weirdly.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
I mean, I don't know I remember this, but I guess.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
John Elway back in the day throwing a football would
always tap right before we threw the ball, and it
was something that the defenders could be and although he listen,
he didn't have many problems with the balls being intercepted whatever,
but you knew and the ball was coming by the
pad obviously, and with the again, it's a timing mechanism
that you get at the top. Maybe the different pitches,
different grips, fastball to slider, change up, whatever, that little

(26:13):
pat is different and thus it takes you in a
different path as you're ready to throw the baseball. There's
just a more consistent pattern to when you when you
reproduce that all the time, which would be without that
little movement before you throw the ball.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
As a as a as a.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Pitcher, a thrower of a batting practice, for years I
did have a little tap and that was a rhythm.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
But that's something different.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
That's that's batting practice when you're trying just trying to
throw the ball down the middle. So it's a timing mechanism.
It could be altered. It could be longer, shorter, different pitches,
could create different kinds of feel with it. It just
makes sense to limit that kind of movement before the
ball is thrown.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah, I'm into all those little details. By the way,
the minutia, if you will, little tells my favorite story
and goes back to the last time in the World
Series was an Arizona. The Yankees go to Arizona up
three to two. He need one more win and extend
their dynasty, right, going for four in a row in Arizona.
Andy Pettitt, you know, mister postseason, takes the ball for

(27:13):
the Yankees. He got clocked that night. The final score
was something like fifteen and nothing. He just they were
on everything, and as it turned out, they literally knew
what was coming when he was in the stretched position.
So Renner gets on base and Andy would fan his
hands away from him when he came to the belt
position when he was going to throw an off speed pitch,

(27:34):
and he'd bring them straight down on a fastball. Arizona
knew exactly what was coming every pitch with a run
around base, and that's exactly what it looked like, and
you know it turned the series obviously. Arizona then wins
Game seven with the blue pit by Luis Gonzales, part
of postseason history. One of the best games you'll ever see,
by the way, but people forget in Game six the

(27:55):
Yankees had a chance to avoid that Game seven, and
it's a case where a pitcher tipping his pitches literally
tipped a balance into the game.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
I had Eddie Perez, and I've had Jimmy Edmonds. I've
had Rod Carew and the bench. I've had Alfredo Griffin
at first base. I've had run Around he had third.
These guys are really good at picking stuff up. West Western.
I used to sit with West Western at Arizona State.
Is a scout in nineteen.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
Eighty two, eighty.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Three, whatever that was with West former catchup for the
New York Giants. I think he caught in the World
Series in nineteen fifty four from Minnesota. Used to call
home runs or really made from first base by picking
up or from I think it was first base and
maybe the dugout.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
He had little signs with him in McCovey.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
To relay signs so devastating to the opposition, so beneficial
to the group that's doing it and furthermore the runner
at second base. There are some teams historically that were
really good at passing along signs are location from second
base was an art form for different teams for a
long time. Toronto. We used to hate going to Toronto.

(29:01):
We used to go out there and check them out
center field all the time. We always thought something was
going on in Toronto. But it could have just been
the fact that their players were really together in regards
to taking signs of giving to the hitter to play.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Cleveland, same thing when they had like Lofton.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
And Tomey and Viscille and Alamar, these guys, I mean
Vierga baseball players, baseball players. When you have that group,
it was really you're always worrying. That's when the trips
to the mound became so vital. And now, of course
with the little PitchCom thing that that's eliminated all that.

(29:37):
But it was kind of cool. It was kind of
cool that to me was not cheating. That was just
good baseball. Reconnaissance. That was one team not hiding their
signals well enough or becoming tubidestrian and they're not careful.
And then of course, I mean I used to really
I think we talked about this. I was really good
at stealing the third base coaches signed and in the
nineties as a bench coach, because that's I would just
lock in on him during the course of the game,

(30:00):
and I would just I would unplug from the ball.
A real good coach or a bench coach during the
course of a game, to me, never follows the ball,
like from the pitcher to the catcher. As a as
a manager, I would do that more often. I'm just
more focused right there in the middle. But as a
bench coach, my duties were all over the field, whether
it was watching a defender, whether it was watching sign

(30:20):
from a third base coach, watching a lead at first base.
I rarely ever watched the ball as it was pitched
because I'm looking for things, and that's how you accumulate
this kind of information. So I know the PitchCom is
really has helped in regards to speeding up the game.
I get all that cool, but I'll tell you what
it was. The way it had been before, the legitimate

(30:43):
stealing of the signs because you weren't careful enough, or
your key was too obvious, or hitters or your third
base coach would go faster or then slower when he
gave an active sign, or hitter would look away before
the third base coach was done giving us signs.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
There was so many things.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
The runner had a different lead at first base, so cool,
and a really big part of you at being a
student of the game and trying to be helpful to
your group. It was a big part of it.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah, listen, I love the Dark Arts as much as anybody,
but I am thankful for PitchCom. It does move the
game along. Game two, folks, took two hours and fifty
nine minutes. That broke a streak of thirty seven consecutive
World Series games that took three hours or more. The
first World Series game under three hours since Game one

(31:31):
of twenty seventeen. So bring it on, keep it going, folks,
and remember the commercial breaks are longer in the World Series. Joe,
you know this, That World Series it's like exponentially bigger,
more exciting, more pressurized than even the LCS. And you
don't know that until you get there. If you haven't

(31:52):
heard it, there's an amazing story involving Tommy Famm and
the World Series that we are going to talk about,
and we're also going to talk about, at least I
will of why Tory Lavello reminds me of Joe right
back after this, Hey, welcome back, Joe. I'm not sure

(32:19):
if you heard this story, but Tommy Fam in Game
two was sitting on a four for fortnight. He's gotten
one more at bet as the lineup begins to come
back to him as the DH for Arizona. There's been
no one in the history of the World Series that
has had a five for five night. I happened guys
with five hits Paul mollinor Albert Poohols, but they each

(32:40):
had six at bats to get there, a perfect five
for five night. Tommy Fam is sitting on the opportunity
to do that for the first time of the World Series.
What does he do? He goes up to Jace Peterson
and tells Jace Peterson, dog, you got my next at bet?
He gave up as a bet to Jace Peterson. Why well,

(33:00):
Tommy Fam broke into the big leagues in twenty fourteen,
This is the first time he got to the World Series.
He's been in the postseason before, never got out of
the first round. Jace Peterson also broke into the big
leagues in twenty fourteen. Both guys Fam and Peterson have
been with seven different organizations. This is the first World
Series for both of them. Tommy Famm knew better than

(33:23):
anybody else what the World Series means to Jace Peterson,
and he wanted to make sure the guy who, by
the way, lockers next to him got into the World
Series with at bet. So Tommy Fam went to Tory Leavello
and told him that he wanted Jace Peterson to take
his at bet. And at the time, Tory is like, well,
you know, there's a lefty on the mound, and you

(33:44):
know the game stays close. You know, I still want
you to take your at bet, which is the right
thing to do, of course. But they started adding on
some teck On runs and lo and behold, Jace Peterson
took the bet at the request of Tommy Fam. I
thought that was so cool, Joe. It says a lot
about Tommy Fam. It also talks about to me, underscores

(34:04):
how close this Arizona team is now listen, you're gonna
hear that from every team that made it to the
World Series. You know, you don't get to the World
Series with a disjointed team. Everybody talks about how close
they are, and it's true, you've been through the ringer
at that point, you've been on the you know, postseason
grind for a month. How could you not be close.
But there's something a little bit different about this Arizona team,
and that, to me is a great example of as

(34:26):
Tory Lavello likes to say, a connected team is a
dangerous team.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yeah, I mean, FAM's history. I don't know most people do.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
But this guy spend a lot of time in the
minor leagues with the Saint Louis Cardinals before he got
his first opportunity. I saw him when he got called up,
and damn, I mean, what's this guy been? And I
thought he's like twenty two or twenty three, and he's
like twenty seven or twenty eight at that particular moment.
It was surprised me. He played with a lot of energy,
a lot of enthusiasm. He played like it took him
a long time to get to the big leagues. It's

(34:54):
like he's that kind of guy that doesn't take advantage
of take anything for granted, knows how difficult it is
to get there, how special it is to be there,
and I respect him for that. I mean, this is
a guy that he'll he'll make some really awful mistakes,
like when he got picked off at second base, Johnny
Lester picked him off one time, he got caught nap
in the first base at in Wrigley. And he'll do

(35:17):
some things like that. He'll have these little moments of
flare ups of he just just lose his sense of
what's going on. In a sense. However, he shows me
a lot of self awareness too. I hear him speak,
and he speaks, he speaks kind of brightly, you know.
He talks about things, and he talks about things, and
it's well thought out. Always, I think, whether you agree

(35:38):
with him or not, he's well thought out. And I
appreciate him for that. And so I guess this doesn't
surprise me. High level of self awareness. He knows what
it takes to get to that moment, and he knows
that if under the circumstances, this might be Peterson's or
only opportunity to get this at bat. Makes all this
sense in the world to me tells you about the guy,

(35:59):
and I agree with Tory internally, he wanted those couple
extra runs to be a comfortable bout doing this. He
got him and then it became an easy get.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
A good scatting report on Tommy fam by the way,
because you know, Joe, when you bounce around a lot
like that, you get traded a bunch of times. You know,
people start wondering, well, what's wrong with this guy? Why
is he moving? And he did have something of a
reputation in that regard. But I can tell you this
about Tommy fam The only trouble he had in the
big leagues or has is with guys who don't work.

(36:29):
Tommy fam Is is incredibly hard worker and if you're
not up to his standards and as blunt speaking as
Tommy fam Is, he might rub you the wrong way,
he will call you out. And as the Diamondbacks pitcher
Zach Gallon told me, we have a team that loves
to work, so he fits right in. And it was
a great pickup by Mike Haysen at the deadline to

(36:51):
get you know, the experience. Obviously, the bat this guy
can hit in the middle of the order. He's already
hit a home run and had a four hit game
in the World Series. He's already paid off. But the
way he dovetails with his younger team and they see
this thirty five year old out there and his butt off.
Speaking plainly as you said, Joe, that's a glue guy.
Tommy fam is a glue guy. For a guy who's
bounced around the seven different organizations. I'm telling you, don't

(37:13):
underestimate the impact this guy is having in the clubhouse,
in the dugout, on the field.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
He doesn't give up in at bat.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
I mean, one of the greatest examples of that, to
me was Albert Bell. Albert Bell never gave up and
at bat never. I don't care what the square was,
I don't care where, I don't care. The dude walked
up there with the same look all the time, put
out that at bat, good at bat.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Then he'd walk back to the dugout.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
I don't know it was immediately after, but soon thereafter,
and he would he would log his at bat and
whatever he was thinking, whatever he did, but every at
bat was logged. And so this guy, again a reputation
a little bit different. But you did not want to
see him. You did not want to see him in
a big moment because I know this, that bat was
real and if you screwed up at all, you're gonna

(38:02):
get hurt. It's got that same kind of an attitude
when he walks up to the plate. For me, this
guy never gives up anything. He's there, He's there in
a moment for every moment.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
He's gonna screw up. Sometimes.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
He said he'll take ad when he got picked off
second base, was trying to do that jump time the
jump le. He didn't go and he really didn't have to,
but he did, and then he gets picked off easily
at second base Johnny Lester. Lester would not throw over
to the first base, so he did the same thing there,
got in no man's land, and Johnny just flipped a
frigging bomb, like a little arcing bomb over there and
he's out. So he'll do things like that on occasion.

(38:37):
But the energy and enthusiasm he brings every day is
contagious and it's effective. So I think for me, a
guy like him on your team, Yeah, I would love
to have Tommy Fan on my team absolutely, And anybody
that didn't understand that I would defend him. I would
defend him with that group or that person, although he's
very capable of defending himself. So I'm a big fan

(39:00):
of FAM.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
I like that too, Tommy. FAM has given them a
lot of energy, and saw has Tory Lavello. And I said, Joe,
he reminds me of you, and maybe it's uh, you know,
the Italian heritage that I'm seeing there. And he told
a funny story that on Game seven of the NLCS,
they're won out away from going to the World Series,

(39:23):
and there was a shot of Tory the dugout and
his mom watching the game on TV saw it and
later told Tory, what is wrong. I've never seen you
look so nervous? She said, The look on your face
was unlike anything I've ever seen before. That's what moms do, right,
They see things nobody else does. And Tory has made

(39:44):
an effort, he really has this whole postseason to just
take things in and enjoy them. But that's what he
can do. What you know this better than anybody, Joe.
You're one out away from realizing a dream of going
to the World Series. His mom saw it on his face,
but I could tell you Joe. The similarities, the way
he runs a game, the way he connects with his players,
I'm not sure sure. I've seen many managers who have

(40:06):
conversations with their players in the course of the game.
I mean, not hey, nice job, or hey, you got
the rudd, but I'm talking about sitting down with players.
Ryan Nelson threw a really tough relief out of the
other day to keep the game tied extra innings. Tory
came over, had a long conversation with him. He had
a long conversation with Zach Gallon after Gallon grinded through

(40:28):
five innings with ninety pitches when the first inning looked
like everything was going to fall apart. It's what he does.
He walks up and down that dugout. He's got a
smile on his face. He told me. He said, I
made a point to make sure that I enjoy this experience,
and I think he's doing that. It's hard to do, Joe,
as you know, when you sit in a dugout in

(40:49):
the World Series, a million things going on, but the
awareness of this guy to realize where he is. I've
been really impressed with how he runs a game, and
specifically how he connects with his players.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Appreciate all that, but I know specifically, I could think
of all the conversations that I've had with different guys
and the course of the dugout and also sometimes I
don't want to use the word confrontations, but can get
kind of upset. But there was some in a moment
for me regarding the snapshot, I'm gonna enjoy this.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
This is I'm not gonna let this go too quickly,
work too hard to get here.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
This is the moments I've always wanted and I often
refer to this when I talk to my teams.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Prior to the playoffs.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
The two thousand and three All Star Game was in
Chicago that I don't know what there was called at
that time, was the New Komiski or whatever, But you
always take a team photograph at the All Star Game.
So that was the first year that the game mattered
to that that mattered with wins who got the home
field advantage in the World Series. And you go through
all this stuff with your autograph. But I'm putting together

(41:52):
all of the scout reports. There was no there was
no help. This was like the angel stuff, right, And
I put all my stuff together and I get everything
ready on time, and you go outside.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
O't care. We take our picture.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
So he got out to centerfield, you and take your
team photograph, and you're looking around with everybody that's involved.
Remember talking to Hank Blaylock specifically saying, listen, be ready
in the latter part of this game, we're gonna be
looking for this moment.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Swear to God, that's how we did it.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
But I'm sitting in there, I take the picture, get
up from the picture. I'm walking back in to home
plate to whatever I have to do next, and I'm
looking up and it's got that computer graphic like kind
of clouds in the sky whatever in the beautiful setting
over the top of the ballpark. And I told myself,
slow it down, take a snap, snapshot, don't let this
happen too fast.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
I'm replaying it right now.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
And from that moment on, when I got into those
hot moments, I would ask myself to do those things,
because quite frankly, up to that point, deff having played
into big leagues, you know, kind of just being a
minor league grunt and then being a coach, and I
coached into the World Series the year before that, but
never really was able to slow it down to the

(43:00):
point where I took that mental snapshot well or when
that was that I would remember and they did. And
so from that moment on, every time we got into
big moments or situation, I would always stop and slow down, breathe,
and take that mental snapshot of where I'm at, and
I try to do that. I've done that ever since then.

(43:20):
I think it's been very helpful in regards to being
in a quote unquote big moment and being able to
be in the present tense.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
I love that. And if I remember correctly, I think
he told this story about you know, being at regular
field and realizing the privilege of managing games and before
a game looking up and seeing that top seat and
right field, the top of the ballpark basically filled all
the time. And that's a little reminder of what baseball
means to Chicago baseball fans and your responsibility to you know,

(43:52):
honor them and their commitment to the game is something
that you would recognize before a game. I think that's
so cool, and for me, I also think about Joe
Torri when Joe Tory spent a lifetime waiting to get
to the World's Series as a player and then as
a as a manager, his welcome of the World Series
moment was standing on the line for the national anthem,

(44:12):
the teams that are introduced. He said, you look up
at the out of town scoreboard and there are no
other games going on. This is the center of the
baseball universe. It's what you have worked for your entire career.
And in that moment of quiet, of course the anthem
is playing, but everybody's being quiet. You're at the center
of the baseball universe. You've made it, and there's this

(44:34):
realization you know that those two minutes when that anthem plays,
there's a lot of self reflection that goes on. And
I asked Tory Lavello about that, and he said it
actually began first when he was introduced, came out first,
and then they introduced the Rangers. Of course, the game
was in Arlington, and Bruce Bochie's been to the World
Series what now four or five times, came over and

(44:57):
said enjoy it, good luck Tory. And Tory said, first
of all, I couldn't believe he actually remembered name. He said,
I was blown away by that. Uh, and just seeing
Bruce Bochie and like, I'm matched up against Bruce Boach
in the World Series for Tory Leavello blew him away.
So he did have that moment where, like you said, Joe,

(45:18):
you can stop, you know, don't let everything go by
so fast you can't see anything or feel anything, but
stop and appreciate where you are in life and in
this great game.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
I appreciate your memory in the story about the seat,
you know, I do remember that I and I told
it often when I first thought about it, but more
specifically when you stand in it. I always stood in
that right side corner of the dug out a wriggling.
You look straight out, like into that right field corner,
and the way the seats it's kind of like bows
out a little bit, and it's just glorious. Man.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
The way that ballpark is constructed, it's just glorious.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
Nothing like it. I still believe it's the best. It's
the best venue in this country, and maybe it's in
the world. I don't know, but I look at that scene.
The thing, damn that seats. There's somebody in that seat,
and there's somebody in that seat every every game. There's
somebody in practically every game except when it's like twenty
degrees out.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
But there's somebody in that seat and it's like wow.
So that just.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
Speaks to effort to me when you that seed represents
to me, like you said, while we're doing this, how
I got here, what it should mean to me, what
it does mean to me, and then what it means
to the fans, and what our efforts should be like
and where why we are here?

Speaker 2 (46:34):
You remember we remember during COVID no fans in the ballpark.
It was kind of weird.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
And it's not really the same kind of there's no inspiration,
it's not the inspiration that you normally would have. Somebody
in that last seed in that right field corner creates inspiration.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Well said listen, when I go to a ballpark, Joe.
There's kind of two things that I really don't like.
One is when, and it usually happens with media people.
I don't think fans necessarily say this. They say, well,
I hope it's not a three hour game. I hope
the game's quick. I mean, you got someplace to go.
Come on, I'm there because I want to stay long.
You give me extra innings, I'll take it. Once you're

(47:12):
there at the ballpark, play on, brother. I don't care
about how long it takes. Now, listen, I'm all about
time of action, pace of action in the game. That's
a separate issue. But if it's a great game, I'm
not in a rush to get out of there. Don't
show up and being a rush to get out of there.
That bothers me. The other thing is people will say
who's going to win? That's why I'm here, folks. I

(47:34):
like not knowing the outcome of the game. Now I
did say, and they used it on air. I had
a feeling the Rangers were gonna blow out the Astros
in Game seven, and they did. It wasn't something I
was rooting for. I just passed, not a feeling I
had before the game. I felt strongly about where Texas
was at that point really had nothing to do with Houston,
and in this case, Joe, I feel this way about
the World Series. If you ask me who's going to

(47:56):
win the World Series, I'd rather not say something, because
first of all, I don't have a rooting interest, and
they don't have a strong feeling it this point, and
usually you pick something and then and then you have
like this unconscious bias that you're you're feeling should come true.
And you start leaning that way. I like not knowing
what's going to happen in this case. I can truly say, Joe,

(48:17):
I don't know where this series is going. I think
these teams are evenly matched. I thought coming in it
was a seven game series. We've never had three game
sevens and one postseason. We may be getting there. So
I like the fact that this series can go any direction.
I will say Game three is a pivotal, pivotal game
because you've got Schurzer and fought. You've got a bullpen
game pretty much in Game four, so bullpens are going

(48:41):
to be taxed. I think you'll have a lot of
runs in these three games in Arizona. But man, anything
goes at this point in this series. And I absolutely love.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
That unconscious biased. I love that.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
Actually it applies to so many different things just in
our life, in and a game specifically going in a prognosticator,
then you might form your opinions just based on that,
and you're going to walk away from something that truly
something else may make may make more sense to you,
and you want to walk to that side. But because

(49:11):
you said this, you got to stay with that. It's
no different than uh, you know organization, there was a scout,
I was a scout and you signed. I signed Tom Berducci.
And then when it comes to evaluating Tom on an
annual basis in meetings whatever, there's there might be a
bias attached to that. Because I signed Tommy, uh, and
because I did. I want Tom to do well.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
And even though I know.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
Jimmy Salmon's been playing a little bit better and I
like him more, but I signed Produce, so I'm gonna
I'm gonna pump him in this meeting. It's really it's
a human quality, of course, but I gosh, I always
wanted to believe that I could rise above that my opinion.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
I always wanted to believe would be independent of bias.
I mean, we talk about this a lot. Outcome.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
Bias is a big part of our game, is a
big part of the world right now. One thing I
really work hard at. And I don't know if I
or not. I think I am, but I guess maybe
that's a bias. But I really try to stay independent
of my biases as much as I possibly can. To me,
that's where truth lies. I mean most the word truth
and bias pretty much have become synonymous terms, I think,

(50:19):
and those that could rise above their own personal biases
and really attempt to see both sides, that gray area
that nobody wants.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
To enter into. We want to be black or white
with everything that to.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Me is important. So yeah, right on unconscious bias. I
want to stay away from that.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
I will do.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
I'll give you my opinion on who might win only
based on the fact that it's interesting to people that
might be listening. But beyond that, you you've got to
keep an open mind and understand that there are two sides,
and you don't want to be polarized with anything. You
just really want to understand and attempt to come to
the right conclusion.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
As always, brother Well said right there by the way,
I know you usually always take us out of here
with a closing thought. Yeah, that's a pretty good one
right there. That truth and bias have become basically synonymous terms.
It's also a little bit scary. But do you have
something else to take it on us today, Joe?

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yeah, I guess again, it's weird, man. I sit around
in a warning and again I have no idea what
Tommy's going to present, And I love that part of it.
I love the extemporaneous nature of our our show. But
this came from Stephen Hawking. You know, pretty bright Fellow
overcame so much adversity in his life. But intelligence is

(51:36):
the ability to adapt to change, and that, in a
nutshell is.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
What you all.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
I think, I want to believe I'm able to do,
but I hope I'm able to do that because that's
so necessary. You have to adapt to change. Now, there's
times that I think it could be construed, like you know,
my stance sometimes apparently against analytics may be misinterpreted because
I was at the forefront of the ability to adapt

(52:07):
to that change in the game in the mid two thousands,
and at some point you could change so much, but
you also have to adhere to what you believe in
your heart of hearts is the right way to do things.
So when I read this, you know, again I'm analyzing myself.
So intelligence and the ability to adapt to change. But

(52:28):
there's a component of that that when it comes to
the word change and what that means, you just change
for just change sake, to me is not appropriate either.
So there's got to be balance, and everything, I guess
is what I'm driving at a balance. Gray matters. It's
not always polarized. It should not always be one way
or the other. And that's to me when I read

(52:48):
that from Stephen Hawking, that's kind of like my interpretation
of it.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Agreed, Joe, And yes, obviously you were at kind of
the cutting edge as analytics came into the game, and
whether that was back with the Angels with your hand
written charts, or certainly with the rays and shifts and
matchups with bullpen guys right on right, all of that.
But you're also you've been at the forefront of the game,
you know, swinging back the pendulum, swinging back towards a

(53:16):
more balanced game. And I think what we're watching here
in the World Series, especially on the Arizona sign side,
is a sign of that. I mean, sacrifice bunts. We're
seeing a lot of those in the World Series. We
went three years without seeing a sack butt in the
World Series. Now we're almost expecting it, or at least
the defenses is on alert for it, on alert for

(53:37):
a stolen base. It's so much more entertaining, so much
more exciting. The anticipation of something happening is back in
the game, rather than sitting back and waiting for a
three true outcome, home run, walk strikeout. So it's credit
to you, Joe that you've been at the forefront of that.
And I think the fans are enjoying, at least stylistically

(53:58):
aesthetically a much better game.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
I agree, and the last plant I'll leave alone with
this one, but I would it comes down to the
lineups I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
I mean, listen, we all love home runs.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
Who doesn't love a home run, But you're not going
to get that consistently from one through nine all the time.
And I think the last time I saw twenty plus
home runs for pre playing the lineup was the Baltimore Orioles.
I remember Chris Hoyle is hitting ninth with twenty some
home runs, but normally that doesn't occur. So stylistically, like
you said, you know, you're gonna have your better hitters
probably one through six. And I always thought, you know,

(54:29):
the Cleveland Indians taught me when I first started with
the Angels as a bench coach and stuff. Was David
Justice hitting seventh. I always looked at the seventh hole
hitter in American league lineup to really tell me how
potent this lineup is.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
To me, that was potent.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
But if you've got and down a lineup, why is
it so difficult to understand attempt to at least nurture speed, speed,
and ability to do different things to create the bottom
part of your lineup leading back into the top of
your lineup.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
I like that.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
I like, you know, a little bit of a diversity
in your lineup. Also, I want power, I want speed.
I want the ability to move to baseball. I want
the ability to have a two striker b hack approach.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
I want all of that.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
I want to be able to steal bases. I want
to advance on balls in the dirt. Why why can't
we nurture all of that within our groups? That's the
part last point with the THEO. I used to tell Leo,
how many rounds do we draft? You know, it's forty rounds?
I think, okay, so why not rounds thirty to forty,
which is normally it's very hard to hit on anybody.
I thought, just get really, and I might be speaking

(55:32):
to the old Kansas City Roads Academy method. Just draft
speed guys thirty to forty. Just speed guys, so you
get ten speed guys a year, ten guys that could
really go and you try to nurture them in the
minor leagues.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
I would say with.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
The course of three four years, you had at least
one or two you're going to hit on that were
going to help you in the major league level. By
having that, like forty guys that could really run after
four years through the draft, to me, that's an interesting concept.
So diversity, we all want diversity. Madam at their diversity.
Guy Hazel's an integrate project. I love diversity in my

(56:06):
lineup two.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Yeah, it reminds me of the year. I think you
were there, COVID year the Angels drafted a picture in
every round. I think it's twenty for twenty or twenty
one for twenty one. So yeah, Yeah, the game's coming back.
I truly believe that. In this World Series is a
good showcase of that. So I'm looking forward to more
of the same. Joe, exciting baseball. I think we're going
to see a lot of runs in these three middle
games in Arizona. Have fun and enjoy them.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
You two brother have a great night.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
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