April 14, 2026 • 55 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci look at the slow start of the Mets and wonder if there are bigger issues at play. Joe points out how time together can help smooth out a lot of issues. Twins manager Derek Shelton talked about what he learned from a year being in the media that he now uses in the dugout. Joe reveals his approach to dealing with the media as a manager. Plus, the legacy of 'flipping the spread'. What is it and is it gone forever?
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey there and welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast.
It's me Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe, how are
we doing?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Doing great?
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Tommy, I'm going to go play Palma Sea today, played
Saint Pete yesterday. Hopefully you have played Dunin tomorrow day off,
have an event at Palma c with Gary Coke on
Thursday night, and then Franks and Tom I pro from
back home and we're gonna do the member guest on
Friday and Saturday. So it's been a very busy golf
week here in beautiful weathered Tampa.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah. Did you get a chance to watch any of
the Masters?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Of course? Killed it right? Yeah, I very watched a
lot of it.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Actually, it's so crazy that that game Benino to tournaments
and it's completely different.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I'd much rather watch golf on television.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
And then on top of that, it's probably my favorite
thing to watch on TV. I mean, I'm a big
you know, the Hawks are going to play the Nicks.
That's great, and you watch all the baseball games, but
from whatever weird reason there is, golf is like, to me,
the most entertaining to watch on TV and to see
Maceroy do what he did, it's very impressed. Actually, you know,
the big lead and then the difficulties and then writing
(01:29):
the ship and everything about it. I thought it was
pretty spectacular. So well, I mean, golf dramatic wise, drama wise,
is as dramatic as any sporting event there is, especially
the Masters.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh absolutely, and Augusta is just eye candy looking at
springtime in Georgia, and at one point I think there
were what five or six players within one shot of
the lead in the back nine, so that there was
drama all over the place. Every shot seemed to be meaningful,
like a close game going to the ninth inning.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Yeah, exactly. And that's that's the beauty of it. I mean,
I mean, I know a lot of people say it's boring.
So there's four hour or maybe in that situation at
least a five hour a walk, But it's such a
mental game, and it's it's I know the ball's in
that move and we know that for those that do play,
but wow, it's just so hard to hit correctly all
the time. So really fascinating stuff. I think, you know,
(02:18):
the it's really it's golf been more popular.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
I mean, you go to a golf course, it's always packed.
You go to driving rangers are always packed. The equipment's
online all the time. I was looking for the bigger,
better stuff. It's pretty exciting right now, and it's good.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
It's good to be a.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
Golfer, absolutely, and baseball is on a roll too.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I think we we're running with this momentum from the
WBC into the season. I had a very interesting conversation
with Derek Shelton, who, as you know, was manager of
the Pirates Got let Go, worked in the media for
a while, and I was back managing the Twins, who
are off to a great, surprising start. I would say,
I want to get into his comments in a minute,
(02:56):
run them by you, Joe. But that leads me to
where we're going to start. And this will be obvious
how they dovetail later on when I talk about Derek Shelton.
But the New York Mets are struggling out of the gate,
and this is a team. We talked about this before
the season, Joe. A lot of changes, changes on the
coaching staff, changes in the lineup. Was it going to work?
(03:17):
We talked about the schedule, going to the West Coast
three times in the first thirty two days of the season,
which is a grind.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Yeah, it's great to have.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It those trips done with early in the season, but
the risk is that it starts to bury you. So
the Mets have lost now six games in a row.
Of course they don't have won Soto's on the il
with the CAF injury. They've gone twenty consecutive innings without
scoring a run, and in this losing streak they've been
outscored thirty four to nine. And the next couple of
(03:48):
days they're going to get Yeshnobo Yamamoto and shohe Otani.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Who has an ERA of zero point zero zero so
far in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
We talk about this a lot here, Joe, early season.
This is all we have to go by. It's uh,
it's small sample season.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
We all know that. But is there concern trend wise?
You're not.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I know, we're not making any conclusions here, but trend wise,
anything jump out at you about the New York Mets
that you go, I'm a little bit concerned about this.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Well, you know that you you've already pointed it out.
I like a lot of their players, but they're they're
new to each other and they really haven't nearly geled
to this point. You know, Bo's got off to a
difficult start, Soto was hurt. The whole group just seems
to be you know, they're not enshrided by any stretch
of the imagination. Everything just seems to be a little
(04:39):
bit off. So for me, when that occurs, if you
could at least stay handy, you know, in the famous
words of Warren spawn Spawny when we were playing golf,
always wanted to be handy, meaning around the green, if
you could just stay handy and there they'll they'll get
it right at some point here obviously, and of course
so it'll be and back will be big. But the
threat is that you get so deep that it's almost
(05:02):
impossible to do itself out of a hole.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
We talked about the Braves from last year, what happened
with them.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
So yeah, and then you go to the West Coast
and it's the weird thing. I know that it looks
like dire right now, but I've seen it happen too,
Like this is the exact situation sometimes where a team
can right themselves almost an impossible situation. Nobody sees the
light at the end of the tunnel and all of
a sudden, good things start happening. So yeah, it's kind
of a trend. I'm not there yet, but they have
(05:29):
to come together. The other thing I noticed, like a show,
he got drilled in the back of the right shoulder
by Peterson yesterday, right, and I don't know, I mean,
that's a tough spot if he's pitching in two days,
I'm curious how he's going to react to that because
that was a pretty that was a pretty direct hit
in that area. So yeah, sometimes, you know, adversity does
(05:49):
bring groups together and sometimes obviously could tear them apart.
But it's a young you know young groups as meaning
that they're young together and they just they just look
the sparrot right now.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
That's about it.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
Yeah, I think some of this is a schedule.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Some of it, as you mentioned, is a new group
coming together, and I'm not sure that leadership roles have
been defined.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
The big additions really haven't come through.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I mean, there were questions about Marcus Simons offense coming
into this year. I mean you have to go back
to your guy ben Zoberest to find a second baseman
who played above average offensively at his age thirty five
years old. Second basement just do not hold up well. Actually,
middle end fielders in general, it's a grind of a position,
and a lot of those middle endfielders do hit cliffs
(06:35):
in their mid thirties. Simeons hitting one ninety seven. Lindor
off to a slow start as he was last year
one to seventy six. Schet you mentioned to twenty eight.
Not sure about the defense at third base. I think
it's okay. I think there's a limited ceiling to how
good he can be at third base with his arm.
Polanco bothered by this achilles and this so far has
(06:57):
been an issue. He's missed some games, he's DHD at
some points he's hitting one ninety two. He has not
gotten on track. Luis Garcia, the relief pitcher, thirty nine
years old. The Mets give him about one and a
half million dollars. They released them already gone. I mean
some of these moves so far, I have not been
as far as return on investment delivering here, and they're
(07:20):
early going for the New York Mets. So you know this, Joe,
when you come to a new team, there's always a
subtle pressure at the minimum. I think when you go
to a New York team, Philadelphia, maybe Boston, the pressure,
if that's the right word to produce right away, I
think gets ratcheted up.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
So I think that could be a play here.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Knowing that if you're playing for the New York Mets
coming off a disappointing year last year, so many changes,
and again especially the coaching staff, I would not undersell that.
Joe as well, the pressure to put something up early on,
I think that could be affecting this team as well.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, never permit the pressure to exceed the pleasure. Right,
So it's easy to say, hard to do sometimes, are
You're right? The coaching staff is a really point. I
believe it goes beyond just the players on the field.
Players are learning coaches or staff and staff's learning players.
I mean, it does absolutely work both ways. Maybe there's
just not that real good flow regarding conversation. Yet again,
(08:20):
when guys are getting to know one another, there is
that learning curve going on. So man, I loved when
coaching staff stayed together. You know, going back to the
Angels with that group we had, we were together for
a bit. With the Rays, we pretty much kept the
guys together for the most part, and it's really it's comforting. Man,
go into spring training as a manager and you're setting
(08:40):
up your day and you're having your meetings prior to
the camp beginning, and you look around and the conversation's
real easy, and you know this guy's been in charge
of the defense, whatever, the hitting coach, and it's a
very good, solid, comfortable feeling. As the trust factor is
really at a high level. And I'm not insinuating that
there's no trust there you but it's just different. As
we all know, when you've worked along somebody side by
(09:02):
side for a period of time, you just you just
know what they're thinking and conversationally it's easy. There's almost
this innate for some people where they feel like they
have to please or agree with and you don't want
that in a conversation, especially when it comes to evaluation.
So you've got to go through all this dance right now,
(09:22):
they're going through the dance of getting to know one another.
So I'd be a little bit patient with this obviously,
and they have to be.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
They have no other choice.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
But having Soto back would really help in a calf
Like I said, I read it somewhere where they weren't
really definitive, and you can't be definitive with the calf.
It's really it's one of those injuries that could really
pop up and get just lingered for a long period
of time.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
So there's a lot going on there.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Patience is required, but getting to know one another is
going to be make a big difference.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, speaking of getting to know one another, I'm not
sure if you saw or heard what happened with Craig
Almana's the Baltimore Orioles manager. I know, like you, Joe,
you always like to stay on the top step of
the dugout so you could kind of feel the vibe
of the game.
Speaker 5 (10:08):
And that's what Albernas does.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And last night he got hit by a foul ball
a screamer into the dugout. Was just able to turn
his face barely enough, but the ball did clip his
face and he did have to leave the game. Now,
he did come back and the teams, speaking of coming back,
was down seven to one. They wound up winning the
game nine to seven, hopefully, and it looks like it
(10:32):
there's a happy ending to this story. But he did
get checked out, did return to the dugout, but a
very scary moment as you know you're that close, there's
like no time on one of those screamer check swing
foul balls off side to the right handed hitter. So
I don't know if that ever happened with you, Joe,
A scary moment like that, but I think a lot
(10:53):
of people at home might not realize how close you
really are to the action and how that ball can
get on you really before you can even react.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
That's no live there's no reaction time.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
You remember in spring trainings for years, guys would just
sit on a chair, you know, on the open side,
like you're suggesting, And eventually got to the point where
we put screens in front of us, which is absolutely
necessary now when you're talking about the top step.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, I am.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
And then I'm also very much aware of who's hitting
and who's pitching this and it could happen at any
time and it startles you. And even remember a couple
of years ago in the bathroom, just shattering, I mean
absolutely breaking into weapons. That was really scary because I
saw some where I didn't see some bats come back
and hit the padding against the back of the wall
there next to me. Without even ever seeing the bat
(11:41):
do that until I heard it.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
It's awful. It's it's quicker than you can imagine.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Remember Mattie Keo, I did got him stum exactly and
that was a big deal back then. And that point,
there was no kind of netting in front of the
dug out at all. It was just wide open. We
used to just have a wide open spaces there. So
there was that, Like I said, at that time, the
whole dugout was exposed. There was no there was nowhere
to hide. And you always, like I said, you always
(12:07):
knew the hitter, what his tendencies were, the lefty that's
going to come into the third base dugout, Orlando pal Merrow,
just check Chuck Sleen just to stand in that bat.
You got to be heads up, dude, you got it
is so fast, people have no idea. Like you said
it perfectly, there's no time to react.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Well, he's an easy guy to root for. Craig almer Naz.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I think my best way to describe him is he's
so much like one of his best friends in baseball,
Steven Vote Right. He's got a great sense of humor,
connects with people really well, and I'm sure Joe, you
can relate to his story. A guy who really paid
his dues, waiting until getting this opportunity to be a
major league manager real quickly. As a player, he was
(12:54):
a five foot eight catcher, and I think even that's
stretching it a little bit, but listed at five foot eight,
undrafted free agent signs with Tampa Bay in two thousand
and six. He played nine seasons in the minor leagues.
I think about that, undrafted, and he sticks around for
nine seasons, plays through age thirty one. His last year
(13:15):
he played with Double A Eerie and the Tiger system.
Hit a career high two hundred and four played appearances,
and so he was basically a part time player for
nine years. He hit one ninety one with no home
runs in his last year, and then he's gone on
to this incredible career as a coach and a manager,
and by the way, from the Tampa Bay Ray system,
(13:35):
which is like the cradle of coaching, Joe, as you know,
you think about I mentioned Derek Shelton.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
He's the hitting coach there.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Albernaz was a minor league player, minor league coach, minor
league manager, and field coordinator for the Rais Blake, but
Terra who's a really good buddy of great Craig Albernaz
came out of the Tampa Bay system. Matt Quatrero of course,
Kevin Cash the manager now Shelton Albernas, Buttera Cash, they
were all in the Raised system twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen.
(14:05):
Something about the Rays, and you can go with some
players as well. But it's kind of like the cradle
of coaches and managers. Joe and you were there, so
you know how that place works.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Well, you talk about Voter and i'lb there and you
had them both, and yeah, there's there's a similarity there. Actually,
I've had a rate to comedic value. I think Voter
wins because Voter just he does impressions and everything. Albi
is just a great conversationalist and we had we always
had great conversation. And these guys are the guys that
(14:39):
when you needed somebody to help you out in the
spring training game. By the way, the minor leagues always
wanted them to be there and they were. Albi always
worked hard, and of course Voter did too. The thing
about Albi that kept them in the minor league sta long.
You've ever seen him throw baseball.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Apparently pop times were incredible.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
This guy great arm, not a good arm, iybe like
you said, he's not tall, but this guy had a
cannon for an arm. And then I'm sure is BP
is still good. So that's what really kept Albi along.
I mean, he was that great, perfect kind of backup catcher,
very good defensively, but the arm was out like outstanding
is even an understatement how good his arm is, whereas
(15:18):
Voter did not have an arm, but he can hit.
So that there was a little bit of ying and
yangling on there. But that group there, and you're right,
I had Shelty Cashi played there. I don't know, but
Terre I never really met him. Maddie with Kansas City
Quatara is really wonderful, wonderful young man.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
So yeah, I've been around a lot.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Of those guys and none of its surprises. I'm really
happy for their success and really i'd like to see
it continue. I really think Albi's gonna have a nice
run in Baltimore and he takes the place of you know,
Brandon Hyde and another good friend so and Hider's now
back Hiders working for the rais right now. So it
is it's a great place to be. I don't know
if you want to say it's a low pressure situation.
(15:59):
I don't necessarily see it that way. I just thought
it was always a good, open teaching environment. You know,
in spite of the fact that there was heavily involved
with analytics, there was also real baseball being done. And
I know they still do a great job of real scouting,
you know, actually having boots on the ground, scouts on
in the field, veteran kind of guys that really can
(16:19):
see things too. So I guess what I'm saying is
I think they've always had a great balance there with
the race, and that's what I felt when I got there,
and it was really attractive to me.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
That leads me.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
We'll take a quick break here, Joe. I mentioned the
comments from Derek Shelton. I found very interesting. I think
it's something that relates to what Carlos Mendoza and the
Mets are going through right now. What happens when a
team is going bad and the responsibility of the manager
is to make sure that things don't go south. We'll
talk about that right after this. Welcome back to the
(17:02):
Book of Joe. You know, really I was very oppressed
with Derek Shelton. First of all, when he was hired
by the Twins, he admitted that with the Pittsburgh Pirates
he lost his job there, that he kind of lost
touch in terms of the day to day communication with players.
This is one of the reasons why I really like
managers on their second job. I think it is there
(17:22):
is a learning curve to the job. I think he's
going to be better this time around. But it was
interesting because he did spend some time with MLB Radio
and MLB Network. Derek Shelton did, so he worked in
the media for mostly after getting let go by the
Pirates last year, and now he's back on the job,
and he told me the difference now is he's had
(17:43):
to remind himself to be more positive in terms of
being a manager because he working in the media, you
tend to at least highlight the negative and not dwell
on it. Here's what he told me, Joe, and I
want your comments on this. The negative component to the
media is not that the media is spewing the negative,
but you always have to be able to critiqu things
(18:04):
that are going on. It's part of what you do
and that's part of what I was doing back then.
This is Shelton speaking, and I think getting back to
this side of it and really realizing the majority of
stuff that's talked about is what we're not doing or
what we should do, and I want to make sure
we're focusing on positive things. There are going to be
things that happen every night, regardless of the game and
(18:25):
how well it's played, that is screwed up, and a
lot of times it becomes the highlight, like this guy
didn't do this and he didn't do that well. I
want to make sure we're focusing on what we are
doing well while still teaching to the moments when we
do make mistakes. I thought that was really probably more
of a commentary on the media Joe that it is
(18:47):
on managing. But for a guy who's gotten back and
forth now in the last calendar year, I thought it
was in a student observation that getting back into the
dugout man, You're like, man, I was probably thinking too
negatively in that other job, and there's no place for
it here on this job.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Chelte is he's a thinker and he and I had
a great relationship there. It's entertainment. We're in the entertainment business.
Everybody's got a job to do. So when it comes
down to the media side of things, you're right and
I and I've often talked to different media guys one
on one and afterwards I would actually tell them, listen,
that was a great question, It was a great observation,
(19:26):
and I actually learned something from that.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
From you.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Most of the time it was a print media because
I think the print media guys have more time to
really extrapolate their thoughts. You see them every day, especially
the guys that you work with every day, and if
you have some really sharp ones man, I you know,
like Mark Topkin as an example down here in Tampa Bay,
Mark would always come up with stuff. Bruce Levine with
the in Chicago, Bruce was always always had some gosh,
(19:53):
it was almost like he read in my mind. I
couldn't believe it sometimes and I would go up to
these guys afterwards and say, you know, that was good.
So from the media perspective, I really look to learn
a lot from these guys if you really pay attention
and just don't get adversarial. Now there's some kind of
guys sometimes like you run into a call mister two
that again has a job to do, and his job
(20:13):
would be to create controversy, and so he would take
the you know, the the negative side of what was
going on, and then you had to react to that too.
So first of all, I have to understand that it's entertainment.
Everybody's got a job to do. But if you as
a manager, if you really listen to what's being asked
to you in these in these sessions, there's there's something
to be learned there and again, and any time I did,
(20:34):
I would tell these guys in a private conversation, yes,
positives and negatives. That would be my whole gig and
instructional leagues on a daily basis, I would point out
the positives and the negatives to the players. That would
start out the negatives and always finish with the positive
side of things. It's important to make sure that they
understand it. There's accountability issues here and you just can't
(20:55):
sugarcoat things and gloss over things and just everything's groovy
all the time. And again, this is a private conversation.
It does not have to be a public conversation. Praise public,
criticized privately. So that's that was another part of my
gig that I learned, and finally, when things are going poorly,
I would get more involved in coaching. I would actually
ask Rick Vaughan or Peter Chase or Adam chatscow listen,
(21:18):
I need my calendar a little bit more clear before
the game regarding media involvement, so that I can have
more time to get out on the field and get
involved directly with what was going on. Actually, like right
when I was let go by the Angels, I had
already set it up that I was going to start
trying to get out, not trying. I was going to
get out and feel more more diligently early because because
and the part of it is, I want my coaches
(21:40):
to coach. I don't want to interfere with their coaches.
I don't want them to feel like there anybody's looking
over their shoulder. Ever, so, people are hired to do
certain jobs. You let them do their job. You staut
of the way you're there. If you see things that
are going sideways, of course you interject out. Otherwise you
let them do their jobs. And I was really big
on that. But when things went poorly, I thought it
was important that I got out there. And then because
(22:02):
a lot of times it's just about reinforcement and letting
letting your players know it's okay and we got this.
And as a coach, I'm able to point out things
as I coach him in here so long answer. But
there's a lot of different layers to that particular subject
right there, and that's how I viewed it. And and
gets back down to the great Andy Freed, who announces
(22:23):
for the Tampa bay Rays.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
I love Andy's great radio voice.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
But the one day where he and I and David
Wills are doing the pre game and I might have
been upset about something, he says, remember one thing.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
It's when in the entertainment business.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
I always I always held that in the back of
my head and it was Andy, I think that said
it to me first, and it's true. So take yourself seriously,
but never take yourself too seriously.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Then really good stuff.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I knew that would interest you, and I think about
especially managing in New York. Aaron Boone gets a lot
of grief when the Yankees are not playing well, and
a lot of Yankee fans want to hear him, like
old school Billy Martin's style, rip into the team about
how badly they're playing.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
He just will not do that. He will not go there.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
And I think that's how you have to manage in
today's game, right find the brighter side of things.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
But you also can control the narrative.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
You know this, Joe as a manager, you spend so
much time in front of the microphones.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
I thought that was one of the best qualities that
Joe Torre had.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
He was able to change the conversation, the narrative to
something that was more in a positive vein.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
He was a great storyteller.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
He had just a way of I don't want to
say manipulating the media, but giving them things that they
could run with that will maybe distracted from the fact
the team had lost four or five in a row.
In any case, he was a master at that, and
I think I look at Carlos Mendoza, who's really good
at it. He's under that challenge right now when it
seems like the world is collapsing around you and all
(23:48):
the questions are going to be And we just went
through all the players who were struggling on the bets
and why this team is not hitting him, why they're
not playing good defense, and why certain guys haven't panned out.
The way, they thought it's his job to sort of
change that narrative, at least without being pollyannish, And that's
a skill set. I think it's part of that. The
manager's job now is to create the right atmosphere publicly,
(24:13):
not just privately in the clubhouse.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yeah, everybody wants the pound of flesh. I had to
go through that early on in my managerial career because
you're managed in the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. My god,
that's one hundred lost season automatically that first year, and
you know, as a manager, as a coach, anything that
you're bringing to the table at that point is really
overshadowed by losing, and so you're going to look You're
going to look like you're incompetent or domb or whatever
(24:35):
you want to call it baseball wise, But you just
you're just trying to put something in place that be
that that's going to turn the tide around, and you're
going to take all the things that you've learned and
eventually hopefully they're going to work out properly in your favor.
But in the meantime, you look really bad. And for me,
it was always about with the media, you're playing defense
all the time, you're always playing defense. You're always moving
(24:56):
your feet, you're always staying in front, you're always going
shelfing your feet back and forth because you're losing. And
when you're losing in baseball talking about baseball as a
manager versus the media, you're playing d You're always playing
d man because you're always defending people, you're always defending situations.
But then all of a sudden, things start going better,
and then you start winning a couple of games, and
(25:16):
then you become pretty good. Now you're on Now you're
on the offensive. So now it's just it's just that
was my mental attitude towards that I felt that. I
think it's true. So when you're when you're building something,
be prepared to play defense because eventually you're going to
get to the point where you could play little offense.
And both sides of this are very important regarding your
(25:36):
development as a as a manager and your ability. And again,
I don't want to use the word handle the press,
but to work with the press and the media, and
so both sides are really important to learn. Both sides
are important to pay attention to. And it's true you
go from defense to offense. Bad team, the good team.
That's how it works.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
It's funny.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Well, you know, watching Tony Vattello, the manager came from
college baseball managing the Giants now has actually been some
observations that he is too forthcoming. He actually brought up
the fact that there had been a couple of clubhouse
incidents that people found out through the manager, which as
you know, never happened.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Somebody's revealing anything about what happens on the clubhouse.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
So maybe there is something I would as someone in
the media, I don't think it's possible to be too forthcoming,
but in the business of baseball, maybe there is.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Well you've heard me talk about, you know, go Jack
Ryan on him, and you know, briefly, the protagonist in
the Clancy books, Jack Ryan was always very forthcoming and
accountable in his comments to whomever regarding what was going
on in the White House and government whatever. And he
would always know he wasn't your talking about the president's
(26:49):
relationship with the drug bust dealer. No, mister President, not
only was one of your friends, he was one of
your best friends. As opposed to like trying to spin
and push him away from it, because the moment he
was not only one of his friends, but one of
his best friends. And at this point that kind of
like diffuses a situation as opposed to adding fuel to it.
(27:10):
I think it's most important. And I felt this too,
because there's a lot of times you'll get information regarding
injuries whatever after the game. They know you're going to say,
be in the front office, they're gonna be talking to
the press, and you're going to get advice in regards
to how to handle this or how to deal with
it or what to say, and that would really upset me.
I didn't like that at all. And then, for instance,
started with Rick Vaughan and I said, RB, we're going
(27:31):
Jack Ryan tonight because if we go Jack Ryan, this
is going to get the fused.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
It's going to go away. Everybody's going to know what's
going on and no big deal.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
A lot of a lot of the parts of that,
A large part of that is front office concerns about
potentials to make deals and if you're again displaying too
much information, it can only come back and hurt you.
So that the tight lip nature of all that is
to conceal information that may come back and hurt you
at a later moment. Regarding probably most more than anything
(28:00):
a deal meaning acquiring somebody or losing somebody. So that's it,
I mean, and I would like to do Jack Ryan
and r V would come in sometimes and he would say,
this is a Jack Ryan moment. I said, absolutely, it is,
and that's it. That's that's probably the most important thing
I learned, and that was to be a reading. Is
that when it comes down to being honest and just
(28:20):
being transparent with the press or people in charge in
the situation with the public, just do that, and if
you do it that way, the story kind of diffuses
and goes away.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I love that thinking rip the band aid off. It
reminds me of you know, you know this managing and
you argue with the umpire. Yeah, if the empire right
away says, you know, sorry, Joe, I missed it, that's
the end of the argument.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
That's it. Walk Away, walk away. I don't know how
many times that happened.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
And I'll go up and later say, man, thanks, that
was great, and you have way more respect for that
person in that moment.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Sticky, we had kind of a raised theme going there
with the Cradle of Coaches, if you will Baseball version.
I'm not sure if you've seen TODZ Bradley pitch this
year for the Minnesota Twins. We mentioned that Twins are
off to a great start. TODJS Bradley is having a
breakout year. He kind of re engineered his splitter. I
always had a good arm in the raised system, and
(29:16):
this year he's thrown the splitter a lot more, leaning
into it, swing and miss pitch for him mid twenties pitcher.
A very interesting trade last year at the deadline, the
Rays traded a guy with a plus arm, starting pitcher
with four and a half years of control for a
setup orliever in Griffin Jacks would tell you how much
(29:37):
relief pitching his value these days. But a breakout year
so far for Todze Bradley. We'll keep an eye on him.
He's a very interesting case. He was a two way
player in high school and really didn't really think about
pitching too much until his senior year when the scouts
were all over him like you've got a major league arm.
Admitted last year when he got to the Twins, he
(29:58):
had never done any homework going into a start, did
nothing about looking at the other team's hitters.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
So he's just learning that side of it.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
But I want to take you back to twenty nineteen
Joe with the Tampa Bay Rays. I'm going to give
you the starting pitchers that were in their system. In
their major league rotation, they had Tyler Glass Now who's
twenty five, and Blake Snell, who is twenty six.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
In the minor leagues.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
In addition to Glass Now and Snell, Christopher Sanchez, Matthew Libertore,
Joe Ryan, Jeffrey Springs, Tas Bradley, Shane Buss.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
All in the Rais.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
System, and all of them were traded, and I can't
tell you they got a haul for those pictures. In fact,
most of those trades did not work out. Christopher Sanchez
for Curtis Meade, Blake Snell for Luis Pattino, Joe Ryan,
that was a Nelson Cruz deal, you know, to rent
a guy for the postseason run. And now you've got
(30:57):
Bradley for Griffin Jacks. I mean, the Rays do so
many things well, and I understand a lot of times
if it's Snell or Glass Now, you know they're coming
up to you know, either an arbitration year or a
free agent year. You're trying to get something on the
dollar rather than just lose them for nothing. I understand that.
But they have produced an amazing amount of starting pitchers,
and they have traded at a young age a whole
(31:20):
ton of starting pitchers, and it looked like Taj Bradley
is the latest one.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
That's because they know they're going to grow another one.
They can give it of these.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
That goes back to my time there. Look at the
starting pitching we had. Oh my god, we used to
throw a thousand innings a year. That was first thing
in spring training. I would challenge the starting pitchers to
a thousand innings. That's wasn't necessarily five guys. A lot
of times it might be six, seven, maybe eight guys.
But I wanted a thousand innings out of our starting pitching.
And when you do that, my god, your bullpen was
(31:50):
so much more effective. It was just it's just a
much better way I think of being consistently successful annually.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
And because you're always talking.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
About the fluctuations of bullpens, especially when you apply this much,
there's these many innings to them. And the other thing
about bullpen guys I don't think is ever get spoken
about enough. And I was really into it was the
emotional component to them. Everybody talks about the physical. You know,
how many pictures that he throw many days in between
blah blah blah. I was warned as much into the
(32:20):
emotional bullets spent in the you know, the different moments
that these guys would come into a game, your quote
unquote high leverage guys. There's a lot of emotion going
into that situation. And when these guys fail on any
particular night of things don't work out right, that's that's heavy. Now,
there's some guys that you knew that were able to
deal with that better than others, and you always knew that.
(32:41):
And then the guys you just watch. You know, when
a guy's going really good, he's on a row, it's
going to stay on that roll. But the moment he
has a hiccup, man heads up. And so there's these
emotional expenditures that are part of that also that I
don't think you ever get spoken about. So, yeah, the
rays And again I thought about this too. I'd love
to know regarding this guy, the the starting pitching glut
(33:04):
that they've had over the years, and how much of
it is really based on eyeballs And you know, the
scouts in the stands and how much the percentage wise
of trust is involved in you know, old time methods
of scouting versus you know, more analytically involved. I'd like
to believe at least sixty percent at least would be eyeballs,
(33:29):
I would think would be the right way to go
it to go after I think even seventy five percent
eyeballs compared to just pure numbers and whatever the pitch
shaping and everything else that the analytical world might tell them.
So it's curious because I know they've had a real
wonderful consistency.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You talked about coaching staff.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Their evaluation system has been consistent for a long time.
I think that plays into their success too.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
You know, earlier I mentioned in the name of Billy Martin,
I did cover Billy Martin as a manager. You mentioned
Matt Keo getting hit by that line drive in Scottsdale Stadium,
that pitch for Billy in Oakland. There was a three
year period where Billy Martin led him complete forty games.
Forty complete games in three years, and he was in
his mid twenties at the time. Obviously those days are
(34:15):
long gone, but I bring up Billy Martin Joe, because
I don't know if you have ever done this, flipping
the postgame spread.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Billy Martin was famous for that.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I saw it with my own eyes, and we may
have just lost the last manager who flipped postgame spreads.
We'll talk about that right after this on the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Joe.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
There's probably a lot of listeners wondering what does that
mean flipping the postgame spread? Right back in the day,
especially on the visiting side, the clubhouse attendant would get
the postgame food and read it out on a long table,
usually a fold out table in the middle of the room,
and players would get off the field and dive into it. Well,
(35:13):
it was too easy of a target for a lot
of managers frustrated by a really bad loss, especially Billy Martin.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
I know your buddy Gene Mak was known for this
as well.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
They would literally flip the table.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And I've seen the pot rose and the meat loaf
on the floor of Tiger Stadium in Detroit after Billy
Martin and the Yankees had a tough loss.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Did you ever flip the post game spread?
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Joe?
Speaker 4 (35:37):
I did not, never, But one of my favorite flips
is Frank Costanza in Seinfeld when he flips the spread
when over the he made the bad beef for during
the Korean conflict or something like that. Yeah, but the
spread flipping, I never, I never would do something like that.
It was like more sequestered as I came along before.
(35:57):
It was like kind of like you're saying, like right
in the middle of the locker room where we could
really make a statement.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
It was too inviting.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
Now you have to go like you have to go
into a kitchen and take like one pen out at
a time and start throwing it. At that time, it
was just like a big table, right, and you're just
like a big card table. They would just flip that
sucker and there'd be food everywhere. It was outstanding. I
remember I wasn't there for it, but I when we
with the with the Angels in ninety five, when we
(36:25):
had the thing with the we lost the big lead
and eventually came back tied one game playoff with the Maritis.
But this we had a four game series with Oakland
that we had to win all four games and Seattle
to go to Texas and split. Forced to have a
one game playoff, And that's exactly what happened. So we
sweep Oakland in California, and I think Tony at some
(36:49):
point there during that last four games of the season
Oakland's out of it. Uh, he was that upset that
I heard that. It was a pretty good flip that
went on down there. So it was always it's always entertaining, man,
and that's that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
And I've seen chairs thrown.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
I've been there for a chair thrown in a meeting,
almost like a Bobby Knight, but I've never I'm not
actually don't even think I've been privy to see a
spread flip. But it's it's legendary stuff, this hysterical stuff.
And actually the manager but he does. Then he goes
in his office, grabs a couple hundred dollars bills and
(37:23):
takes it out to the club because at that time,
the club he paid for all of that too. That
was coming out of the clubby's pocket, and he would
make tips based on the food and how good it was.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
It said.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
So there's this like a really complicated situation but really entertaining.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
No, I think the manager realizes right away he literally
has to pay for it. I mentioned gene Walk, there
was one time where he flipped a spread and it
actually whatever sauce there was on the menu that night
got on the suit of Wes Covington, so he had
to buy West and News suit. But I bring it
up because the passing of Phil Garner, who may be
(37:57):
the last manager at least I know of who flipped
the postgames spread all scrap iron and just a bittersweet irony.
As well, another great second baseman, legendary gritty guy, Davy Lopes,
passed away as well, to second basemen who just kind
of defined what you want a ballplayer in terms of
(38:18):
leaving it all on the field.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
Both also I think very smart players.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I know they are known for their grittiness and dirty
uniforms and all that, but I think it overshadowed the
fact that both of them were two of the smartest,
the highest baseball IQ guys you could find. My most
amazing note on Davey Lopes, who I think Joe. I
think he redefined the role of first base coach. He
used to be largely a ceremonial job. The manager would
(38:44):
have a buddy put out there. The Yankees once hired
Mickey Mantle to be a part time first base coach
to try to sell some tickets at Yankee Stadium.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Davy Lopes was able to see the tells and patterns
and sequences and pitchers and literally tell people when to run.
And with the Philadelphia Phillies, he had a four year
stretch when the Philly one of the World Series, including
that one year where they were successful on about eighty
four percent of their attempts. And you look at the
numbers for Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Jason Worth, they had
(39:15):
their best years.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Well, David Lopes was coaching first base, so David Lopes
was a base dealer himself.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Most amazing note on David Lopes, he was the original
forty to forty player and you're like, wait a second.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
He never had forty home runs.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
He stole forty bases at the age of forty, the
only player in baseball history. He did it for Dallas
Green in nineteen eighty five with the Cubes. He only
started sixty seven games that year at Joe, but he
got into a bunch of games coming off the bench.
He stole more than forty bases at the age of forty.
(39:51):
Nobody else in baseball history has done that, and you
look at his combination of home runs and stolen bases,
and only three other players five foot nine and smaller
ever put up those kind of power numbers and speed numbers,
and they're all in the Hall of Fame, including Tim
Raines as well. So two second basemen, two former major
(40:13):
league managers as well to the grittiest players you'd ever see,
Davey Lopes and Phil Garner. Condolences to their families on
their passing.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
Absolutely, and I.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Knew both of them. I didn't know either one really well.
I think actually worked against Garner, I think as a manager.
But I know, like you're saying, highly respected among the
groups that they had, and you're right about Davey Lopes
when he redefined the first base coaching. I think Dave
McKay right now, I still with the Diamondbacks. I've known
(40:45):
him forever. We came up kind of together in instructional
leagues and when he was with Oakland. But he's another
guy that really takes that job very seriously.
Speaker 5 (40:53):
I'm glad you brought that up, Joe.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
If I can interrupt you for one second, go ahead, Yeah,
Dave McKay, let's give him his props. I actually was
speaking with Bryce Harper the other day, he told me
an amazing story about Dave McKay. I mean, he's another
one where his runners always have a very high percentage
when they steal, he said. And Harper, obviously playing first base,
is privy to all this. Within the earshot, Dave McKay
(41:15):
will call out a number to the base runner. He'll
say three, maybe the runner doesn't go, or we'll say five,
maybe the runner doesn't go. But then we'll say another number.
And Harper hasn't figured out the pattern here, He'll say
eight and the runner will go, and ninety nine percent
of the time is safe. The runners are going on
the audible queue of the first base coach. I mean,
(41:39):
how good is that?
Speaker 4 (41:40):
It was outstanding and we had something a similar system,
but we were relying when I say we with the Angels,
because we had Fredo Griffin at first and running Rennicky
at third. I think we've talked about this in the past.
Like I was, my job was to try to get
the signs from the bench to the catcher because at
that time the running game was completely controlled that way.
I think it's to a certain extent, but not as
(42:03):
much now with the r and nobody wants to pitch out,
nobody hits, hitting runs, et cetera. But if we were
able to get their signs when they were throwing over
the first base or not the opposition pitchers, and it
really played well for us with the Yankees, and part
of the reason why we were so good against the
Yankees in the late nineties early two thousands, well, we
would get you get the signs. So once I got
(42:24):
the sign Rags would get to know what the signs
was and then and afraid it would be at first
base triangulation and we would work this thing where we'd
get the signs and then some we would relay it
to the runner prior to the pitch. And when the
runner knew there'd be no throw over to first base,
get he get even heavier on his right side and
just take off. Because everybody only threw over when they
(42:47):
got the sign to And that's why I, as a manager,
I wanted my pitchers to throw to first base even
if they didn't get to sign to throw the first
base from the catcher, because I wanted to make sure
that nobody was picking up our signs. If they thought
they did, we would confuse them automatically because they think
you're not throwing over, and all of a sudd and
you do throw over. So that's that's part of the
game within the game that you know, people really don't
(43:08):
talk about. So yes, when you get that going on,
when you get that that little tip and Dave's David
McKay's the same way as Davey Loaves had been.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
It's a tremendous advent. Is you kidding me? Because it
blows up the pitcher's head. The catchers really lose their confidence.
You're constantly putting pressure on the middle infield and defense,
people are moving all the time.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
It really, it really does matter. It's not part of
the game as much as it had been in the past.
But that's why these these first base coaches. There's a
young man it's been with the Giants, I think in
the Mets, is it Richardson?
Speaker 5 (43:39):
Yeah, It'swan Richardson. I'm glad you brought him up because
we talked that changes. The Mets didn't want to pay him.
I mean, he's a difference maker.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Brandon Neimo had never stolen bases until Richardson got there.
Ron Soto went from a tenth percentile based runner to
a ninetieth percentile, led the league in stolen bases, and
because he trusted the first base coach who puts in
a tremendous amount of work. I mean, just pay these guys.
The Mets didn't want to pay Jeremy Haffen. They're the
pitching coach or Richard's in the first base coach. When
(44:06):
you got good ones, Man, you know this, Joe, coaches
make a difference.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
Yeah, well that's you just said it exactly right. There
are absolute difference makers as coaches in the major leagues,
even in the minor leagues. And it's too bad because
they always get clumped as considered that, oh, we could
replace and we could get another one of those things.
And it always used to really really upset me when
I would hear that kind of stuff because that was
(44:32):
part of the landscape. When you get like like Mike Borzello.
We talked about him so many times. Borzy I can't
believe is not on somebody's bench. I cannot believe that.
That to me is like sinful that they haven't figured
out how important this guy would be to a bench
and what he's able to do in game, pregame and
(44:52):
in game to the success of a group. And I've
talked about Tim Bust. Tim Buss is with the Angels
right now. Bussy is the I don't know exactly what
he was, my vice president of stuff. I call him
the VP of stuff. He would start every day out.
He gets them in a huddle and hysterical. He has
his own little methods, his own little ways. It's way
better than any kind of late night comedy that's going
(45:12):
on right now. He's he's way better than any of that.
But he is. These are glue guys. These guys we've
talked to glue guys. These guys, my god, superstars love them.
The last guy on the bench loves them, superstars. And
they these are the kind of guys that they could
they could give the superstar hard time. And I saw it, man,
and it's so like with the Cubbies and Sweat, you know,
(45:35):
twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
You got a bunch of guys that are pretty good.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
He had everybody was in his crosshairs and everybody would laugh.
So this is the stuff that's not paid attention to,
that is so important to success. And you're a thousand
percent right, these coaches, you need to understand who's a
really good at something, and then you really need to
understand you got to pay him to keep them because
they they do make a difference. First came to you know,
(46:00):
with me, came to life for me with the two
thousand to Angel's coaching staff, and I've already talked about it.
Whenever you keep your coaches together, that first meeting of
those meetings they're in the spring training and then this
season so much more comfortable because there's trust dripping everywhere,
as opposed to consternation and worry because you don't know
(46:21):
who's talking to who when the coaching staff becomes a
little bit fragmented.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Heads up before we get to your wisdom of the day, Joe,
and mindful of Derek Shelton's words, I don't want to
be completely negative. We did start with the Mets and
kind of what's wrong with them, But let's go a
little bit positive here because I know the ABS system
has brought a lot of grief to umpires, right. They
seem to get noticed a lot more for their mistakes.
(46:46):
Before their mistakes were matters of opinion. Now it's a
matter of fact that everybody can see in bright lights
on the scoreboard, So worth pointing out that I think
it's also a highlighting how good these guys are. Just
as two examples for you, Eric Beckus, he's in his
fourth year umpiring, he's just thirty five years old. His
first three games behind the plate, he called four hundred
and sixty six pitches. Only one was overturned by a challenge. Right,
(47:12):
there were nine challenges, eight were confirmed. I mean, that's impressive.
And will Little again, a younger umpire forty two years old,
three games, five hundred and one pitches called, only one
overturn call on ten challenges. So I know we can
look at the negative side and say there's a lot
(47:32):
of umpires out there, like a C. B. Buckner famously
his first game behind the dish with abs was too noticeable.
But let's also give credit to these guys who are
doing an amazing job. Now that the strike zone is
defined by literally fractions of an inch, you're making five
hundred calls major league velocity and spin, and you only
get one wrong.
Speaker 5 (47:53):
That's pretty darn impressive.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
Well, I've always said and I believe that it's always
we are the best officiated game of all. You know,
the concern for me would be the confidence and shortstop
makes it. I saw Cavero make that air last night
at shorts left. The ball was a bullet and he
got off to the side a little bit, but probably
had it just to see it better. But uh, you
(48:15):
see E six on the scoreboard right now, you're gonna
see e e U E umpire.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
You know, it's hard.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
It's hard when you you know you'd make your when
your mistake is absolutely glorified, magnified whatever affide in front
of the whole stadium and then of course the viewing audience.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
It's tough.
Speaker 4 (48:34):
And because to me, you know, the umpires really need
their confidence to be very good and making those those split,
split second decisions. You're right, though, there's it's going to
point out the negative, and those negatives aren't going to
go away unless hopefully, you know, weirdly, in some way,
I want to believe that these guys that have not
been so good or have a reputation of not being
(48:54):
that good, should hopefully become better. They may spend more
time studying because they do not want to be embarrassed
in front of the entire stadium public and the viewing
public in general. So that might be the offshoot of this,
but I think it's really important that whoever's in charge
of these things with the umpires, that they got to
keep their confidence. Man, they got to keep their confidence
(49:15):
to be good. It's still the best officiated game of all.
And kudos to those umpires because that's that's pretty impressive
to only have one I know, Will I don't know
backus as well.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
But yeah, that kind of clarity.
Speaker 4 (49:28):
And reputation and that kind of a positive result, that's
pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Good stuff, Joe, What do you got to take us
home here on this edition of the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah, I was going with about repetition was my.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
Thought for the day, and I was thinking the Dodgers
were really like in the front of my mind because
talk about repeating, and we talked about earlier this year
how it's difficult it's going to be for them to
repeat and right now they might be playing better than
they have the last two three years. I don't know,
guys are starting to resurface. They're they're pitching depth is great,
et cetera, et cetera. But repetition, So for me, it
(50:03):
was about repeating to win their division, win another World Series,
which looks like it's going to be within their purview again.
But then repetition in another facet would just be skill
and learning.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
It's exigular.
Speaker 4 (50:17):
Repetition is the mother of learning, the father of action,
which makes it the architect of accomplishment. That's what we
do every day, you know. Baseball players do that every day,
and there's all you know. For me, there was always
a point of diminishing returns that you have to really
be aware of. You have to know when to back off.
You have to know when to give the body and
(50:37):
mind to rest. But that's that's another subject completely, Tony Robinson.
Repetition is the mother of skill. So I'm into it.
I believe in it one thousand percent. I thought, good
drill work done well. You just don't do drill work
and accept when a player is doing the drill work
and he and he's not doing it well and just
(51:00):
just giving him positive feedback for that.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
No, no, no, no.
Speaker 4 (51:04):
Good drill work done well and properly while you're watching
it and he's feeling it is really the It is
the architect of accomplishment. So anyway, the Dodgers started it
out for me with what they're doing right now as
a team and then as an individual, that's what that's
how we get good at what we do. Repetition being
the mother skills. And then there's even the other side
(51:25):
of the world that talks about when it comes to
the art, repetition is the death of art. And then
we're talking about something completely different, boredom, we're stagnation, completely different.
I'm miss talking about skill work, and I think the
Dodgers are really representing that well right now.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
And almost every player there.
Speaker 4 (51:40):
Is your pitcher you just talked about, that's done. He's
done better this year with the Twins because all of
a sudden he's doing his work. It's it's a very
important repetition.
Speaker 5 (51:53):
Yeah, which reminds me. And I'd like to get your
quick take on this, Joe.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Back in the Steinbreder days with the Yankees, if the
Yankees messed up, save some ground balls.
Speaker 5 (52:01):
Or relay, they were out there the next day drilling.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
That was George Steinberg's football mentality from his day's coaching
in Northwestern I get that, but were you a big
believer in drilling guys not as punishment but to tighten
things up to get them out early.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
Yes, that was the reason to get them out early,
and I would do that proactively. In other words, I
never wanted to be punitive. So we'd come off of
the road, and I would make sure that the coaches
told the players, they say, it's a ten game homestand
I would want the pitchers out there once, maybe twice,
to go through some PfP drills. And yes, I would
want the position players to come out, whether it's the review,
(52:40):
the bunt defenses, whatever the review necessary was. I wanted
it to be announced in advance of so that they
never felt as though it was a punitive situation. And
the best time to do this kind of stuff is
when things are going well. That's when it really reinforces
in a good way quickly. One of the big differences
in the twenty fifteen Cubs was the first time we
(53:03):
had a relay drills at Sloan Park on one of
the backfields.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
We stunk.
Speaker 4 (53:09):
That's the first time the players heard me yell at
him man. I was appalled by the lack of concern
about doing this right. So we stopped the cutoff and
relay drill and we went into relay catch, which is
something you did with your rookie ball guys. You get
a line of four guys and the ball go from
one to the from an end to two middle guys
to another end and come back. And we turned it
(53:30):
into a competition and the guys really got into We
started putting money on the line for the line that
had the quickest balls up and down without dropping them,
because if you missed a one of the cutoff guys
in between and the relay guys, you had to go
get the ball before you could proceed.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
So it was really fun.
Speaker 4 (53:47):
I swear I'd love to have an actual accounting for
how many times we screwed up a cutoff and relay
that year.
Speaker 3 (53:53):
I thought we were fabulous at it. These are the
kind of things.
Speaker 4 (53:56):
Never make it punitive, make it proactive, planet in advance.
Speaker 5 (54:01):
It's one of my favorite things in baseball. Well, relay
play with all the bodies.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
Moving around on the field, responsibilities for everybody, and when
it's done well, it's like a ballet watching it work
like that.
Speaker 4 (54:13):
And always remember the trail runner. That's the guy that
probably isn't running as well. The lead runner is running
hart normally all the time. The trail runner is the
guy that's relying on the ball going ahead to that
the lead runner to the lead base. I always wanted
them to be the eyes, the trail guy in the tandem.
Always pay attention to the runner, the trail runner, because
(54:34):
that's the guy that's probably going to be a little
bit more cavalier about it, because he thinks the play's
not coming to him.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Repetition, the thought of a day will rinse and repeat
and do this again next week.
Speaker 3 (54:45):
Joe, see then, well said, brother, Thanks man.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
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Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey there and welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast.
It's me Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe, how are
we doing?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Doing great?
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Tommy, I'm going to go play Palma Sea today, played
Saint Pete yesterday. Hopefully you have played Dunin tomorrow day off,
have an event at Palma c with Gary Coke on
Thursday night, and then Franks and Tom I pro from
back home and we're gonna do the member guest on
Friday and Saturday. So it's been a very busy golf
week here in beautiful weathered Tampa.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah. Did you get a chance to watch any of
the Masters?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Of course? Killed it right? Yeah, I very watched a
lot of it.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Actually, it's so crazy that that game Benino to tournaments
and it's completely different.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I'd much rather watch golf on television.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
And then on top of that, it's probably my favorite
thing to watch on TV. I mean, I'm a big
you know, the Hawks are going to play the Nicks.
That's great, and you watch all the baseball games, but
from whatever weird reason there is, golf is like, to me,
the most entertaining to watch on TV and to see
Maceroy do what he did, it's very impressed. Actually, you know,
the big lead and then the difficulties and then writing
(01:29):
the ship and everything about it. I thought it was
pretty spectacular. So well, I mean, golf dramatic wise, drama wise,
is as dramatic as any sporting event there is, especially
the Masters.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh absolutely, and Augusta is just eye candy looking at
springtime in Georgia, and at one point I think there
were what five or six players within one shot of
the lead in the back nine, so that there was
drama all over the place. Every shot seemed to be meaningful,
like a close game going to the ninth inning.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Yeah, exactly. And that's that's the beauty of it. I mean,
I mean, I know a lot of people say it's boring.
So there's four hour or maybe in that situation at
least a five hour a walk, But it's such a
mental game, and it's it's I know the ball's in
that move and we know that for those that do play,
but wow, it's just so hard to hit correctly all
the time. So really fascinating stuff. I think, you know,
(02:18):
the it's really it's golf been more popular.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
I mean, you go to a golf course, it's always packed.
You go to driving rangers are always packed. The equipment's
online all the time. I was looking for the bigger,
better stuff. It's pretty exciting right now, and it's good.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
It's good to be a.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
Golfer, absolutely, and baseball is on a roll too.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I think we we're running with this momentum from the
WBC into the season. I had a very interesting conversation
with Derek Shelton, who, as you know, was manager of
the Pirates Got let Go, worked in the media for
a while, and I was back managing the Twins, who
are off to a great, surprising start. I would say,
I want to get into his comments in a minute,
(02:56):
run them by you, Joe. But that leads me to
where we're going to start. And this will be obvious
how they dovetail later on when I talk about Derek Shelton.
But the New York Mets are struggling out of the gate,
and this is a team. We talked about this before
the season, Joe. A lot of changes, changes on the
coaching staff, changes in the lineup. Was it going to work?
(03:17):
We talked about the schedule, going to the West Coast
three times in the first thirty two days of the season,
which is a grind.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Yeah, it's great to have.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It those trips done with early in the season, but
the risk is that it starts to bury you. So
the Mets have lost now six games in a row.
Of course they don't have won Soto's on the il
with the CAF injury. They've gone twenty consecutive innings without
scoring a run, and in this losing streak they've been
outscored thirty four to nine. And the next couple of
(03:48):
days they're going to get Yeshnobo Yamamoto and shohe Otani.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Who has an ERA of zero point zero zero so
far in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
We talk about this a lot here, Joe, early season.
This is all we have to go by. It's uh,
it's small sample season.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
We all know that. But is there concern trend wise?
You're not.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I know, we're not making any conclusions here, but trend wise,
anything jump out at you about the New York Mets
that you go, I'm a little bit concerned about this.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Well, you know that you you've already pointed it out.
I like a lot of their players, but they're they're
new to each other and they really haven't nearly geled
to this point. You know, Bo's got off to a
difficult start, Soto was hurt. The whole group just seems
to be you know, they're not enshrided by any stretch
of the imagination. Everything just seems to be a little
(04:39):
bit off. So for me, when that occurs, if you
could at least stay handy, you know, in the famous
words of Warren spawn Spawny when we were playing golf,
always wanted to be handy, meaning around the green, if
you could just stay handy and there they'll they'll get
it right at some point here obviously, and of course
so it'll be and back will be big. But the
threat is that you get so deep that it's almost
(05:02):
impossible to do itself out of a hole.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
We talked about the Braves from last year, what happened
with them.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
So yeah, and then you go to the West Coast
and it's the weird thing. I know that it looks
like dire right now, but I've seen it happen too,
Like this is the exact situation sometimes where a team
can right themselves almost an impossible situation. Nobody sees the
light at the end of the tunnel and all of
a sudden, good things start happening. So yeah, it's kind
of a trend. I'm not there yet, but they have
(05:29):
to come together. The other thing I noticed, like a show,
he got drilled in the back of the right shoulder
by Peterson yesterday, right, and I don't know, I mean,
that's a tough spot if he's pitching in two days,
I'm curious how he's going to react to that because
that was a pretty that was a pretty direct hit
in that area. So yeah, sometimes, you know, adversity does
(05:49):
bring groups together and sometimes obviously could tear them apart.
But it's a young you know young groups as meaning
that they're young together and they just they just look
the sparrot right now.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
That's about it.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
Yeah, I think some of this is a schedule.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Some of it, as you mentioned, is a new group
coming together, and I'm not sure that leadership roles have
been defined.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
The big additions really haven't come through.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I mean, there were questions about Marcus Simons offense coming
into this year. I mean you have to go back
to your guy ben Zoberest to find a second baseman
who played above average offensively at his age thirty five
years old. Second basement just do not hold up well. Actually,
middle end fielders in general, it's a grind of a position,
and a lot of those middle endfielders do hit cliffs
(06:35):
in their mid thirties. Simeons hitting one ninety seven. Lindor
off to a slow start as he was last year
one to seventy six. Schet you mentioned to twenty eight.
Not sure about the defense at third base. I think
it's okay. I think there's a limited ceiling to how
good he can be at third base with his arm.
Polanco bothered by this achilles and this so far has
(06:57):
been an issue. He's missed some games, he's DHD at
some points he's hitting one ninety two. He has not
gotten on track. Luis Garcia, the relief pitcher, thirty nine
years old. The Mets give him about one and a
half million dollars. They released them already gone. I mean
some of these moves so far, I have not been
as far as return on investment delivering here, and they're
(07:20):
early going for the New York Mets. So you know this, Joe,
when you come to a new team, there's always a
subtle pressure at the minimum. I think when you go
to a New York team, Philadelphia, maybe Boston, the pressure,
if that's the right word to produce right away, I
think gets ratcheted up.
Speaker 5 (07:38):
So I think that could be a play here.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Knowing that if you're playing for the New York Mets
coming off a disappointing year last year, so many changes,
and again especially the coaching staff, I would not undersell that.
Joe as well, the pressure to put something up early on,
I think that could be affecting this team as well.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, never permit the pressure to exceed the pleasure. Right,
So it's easy to say, hard to do sometimes, are
You're right? The coaching staff is a really point. I
believe it goes beyond just the players on the field.
Players are learning coaches or staff and staff's learning players.
I mean, it does absolutely work both ways. Maybe there's
just not that real good flow regarding conversation. Yet again,
(08:20):
when guys are getting to know one another, there is
that learning curve going on. So man, I loved when
coaching staff stayed together. You know, going back to the
Angels with that group we had, we were together for
a bit. With the Rays, we pretty much kept the
guys together for the most part, and it's really it's comforting. Man,
go into spring training as a manager and you're setting
(08:40):
up your day and you're having your meetings prior to
the camp beginning, and you look around and the conversation's
real easy, and you know this guy's been in charge
of the defense, whatever, the hitting coach, and it's a
very good, solid, comfortable feeling. As the trust factor is
really at a high level. And I'm not insinuating that
there's no trust there you but it's just different. As
we all know, when you've worked along somebody side by
(09:02):
side for a period of time, you just you just
know what they're thinking and conversationally it's easy. There's almost
this innate for some people where they feel like they
have to please or agree with and you don't want
that in a conversation, especially when it comes to evaluation.
So you've got to go through all this dance right now,
(09:22):
they're going through the dance of getting to know one another.
So I'd be a little bit patient with this obviously,
and they have to be.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
They have no other choice.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
But having Soto back would really help in a calf
Like I said, I read it somewhere where they weren't
really definitive, and you can't be definitive with the calf.
It's really it's one of those injuries that could really
pop up and get just lingered for a long period
of time.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
So there's a lot going on there.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Patience is required, but getting to know one another is
going to be make a big difference.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, speaking of getting to know one another, I'm not
sure if you saw or heard what happened with Craig
Almana's the Baltimore Orioles manager. I know, like you, Joe,
you always like to stay on the top step of
the dugout so you could kind of feel the vibe
of the game.
Speaker 5 (10:08):
And that's what Albernas does.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And last night he got hit by a foul ball
a screamer into the dugout. Was just able to turn
his face barely enough, but the ball did clip his
face and he did have to leave the game. Now,
he did come back and the teams, speaking of coming back,
was down seven to one. They wound up winning the
game nine to seven, hopefully, and it looks like it
(10:32):
there's a happy ending to this story. But he did
get checked out, did return to the dugout, but a
very scary moment as you know you're that close, there's
like no time on one of those screamer check swing
foul balls off side to the right handed hitter. So
I don't know if that ever happened with you, Joe,
A scary moment like that, but I think a lot
(10:53):
of people at home might not realize how close you
really are to the action and how that ball can
get on you really before you can even react.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
That's no live there's no reaction time.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
You remember in spring trainings for years, guys would just
sit on a chair, you know, on the open side,
like you're suggesting, And eventually got to the point where
we put screens in front of us, which is absolutely
necessary now when you're talking about the top step.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, I am.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
And then I'm also very much aware of who's hitting
and who's pitching this and it could happen at any
time and it startles you. And even remember a couple
of years ago in the bathroom, just shattering, I mean
absolutely breaking into weapons. That was really scary because I
saw some where I didn't see some bats come back
and hit the padding against the back of the wall
there next to me. Without even ever seeing the bat
(11:41):
do that until I heard it.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
It's awful. It's it's quicker than you can imagine.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Remember Mattie Keo, I did got him stum exactly and
that was a big deal back then. And that point,
there was no kind of netting in front of the
dug out at all. It was just wide open. We
used to just have a wide open spaces there. So
there was that, Like I said, at that time, the
whole dugout was exposed. There was no there was nowhere
to hide. And you always, like I said, you always
(12:07):
knew the hitter, what his tendencies were, the lefty that's
going to come into the third base dugout, Orlando pal Merrow,
just check Chuck Sleen just to stand in that bat.
You got to be heads up, dude, you got it
is so fast, people have no idea. Like you said
it perfectly, there's no time to react.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Well, he's an easy guy to root for. Craig almer Naz.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I think my best way to describe him is he's
so much like one of his best friends in baseball,
Steven Vote Right. He's got a great sense of humor,
connects with people really well, and I'm sure Joe, you
can relate to his story. A guy who really paid
his dues, waiting until getting this opportunity to be a
major league manager real quickly. As a player, he was
(12:54):
a five foot eight catcher, and I think even that's
stretching it a little bit, but listed at five foot eight,
undrafted free agent signs with Tampa Bay in two thousand
and six. He played nine seasons in the minor leagues.
I think about that, undrafted, and he sticks around for
nine seasons, plays through age thirty one. His last year
(13:15):
he played with Double A Eerie and the Tiger system.
Hit a career high two hundred and four played appearances,
and so he was basically a part time player for
nine years. He hit one ninety one with no home
runs in his last year, and then he's gone on
to this incredible career as a coach and a manager,
and by the way, from the Tampa Bay Ray system,
(13:35):
which is like the cradle of coaching, Joe, as you know,
you think about I mentioned Derek Shelton.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
He's the hitting coach there.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Albernaz was a minor league player, minor league coach, minor
league manager, and field coordinator for the Rais Blake, but
Terra who's a really good buddy of great Craig Albernaz
came out of the Tampa Bay system. Matt Quatrero of course,
Kevin Cash the manager now Shelton Albernas, Buttera Cash, they
were all in the Raised system twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen.
(14:05):
Something about the Rays, and you can go with some
players as well. But it's kind of like the cradle
of coaches and managers. Joe and you were there, so
you know how that place works.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Well, you talk about Voter and i'lb there and you
had them both, and yeah, there's there's a similarity there. Actually,
I've had a rate to comedic value. I think Voter
wins because Voter just he does impressions and everything. Albi
is just a great conversationalist and we had we always
had great conversation. And these guys are the guys that
(14:39):
when you needed somebody to help you out in the
spring training game. By the way, the minor leagues always
wanted them to be there and they were. Albi always
worked hard, and of course Voter did too. The thing
about Albi that kept them in the minor league sta long.
You've ever seen him throw baseball.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Apparently pop times were incredible.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
This guy great arm, not a good arm, iybe like
you said, he's not tall, but this guy had a
cannon for an arm. And then I'm sure is BP
is still good. So that's what really kept Albi along.
I mean, he was that great, perfect kind of backup catcher,
very good defensively, but the arm was out like outstanding
is even an understatement how good his arm is, whereas
(15:18):
Voter did not have an arm, but he can hit.
So that there was a little bit of ying and
yangling on there. But that group there, and you're right,
I had Shelty Cashi played there. I don't know, but
Terre I never really met him. Maddie with Kansas City
Quatara is really wonderful, wonderful young man.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
So yeah, I've been around a lot.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Of those guys and none of its surprises. I'm really
happy for their success and really i'd like to see
it continue. I really think Albi's gonna have a nice
run in Baltimore and he takes the place of you know,
Brandon Hyde and another good friend so and Hider's now
back Hiders working for the rais right now. So it
is it's a great place to be. I don't know
if you want to say it's a low pressure situation.
(15:59):
I don't necessarily see it that way. I just thought
it was always a good, open teaching environment. You know,
in spite of the fact that there was heavily involved
with analytics, there was also real baseball being done. And
I know they still do a great job of real scouting,
you know, actually having boots on the ground, scouts on
in the field, veteran kind of guys that really can
(16:19):
see things too. So I guess what I'm saying is
I think they've always had a great balance there with
the race, and that's what I felt when I got there,
and it was really attractive to me.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
That leads me.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
We'll take a quick break here, Joe. I mentioned the
comments from Derek Shelton. I found very interesting. I think
it's something that relates to what Carlos Mendoza and the
Mets are going through right now. What happens when a
team is going bad and the responsibility of the manager
is to make sure that things don't go south. We'll
talk about that right after this. Welcome back to the
(17:02):
Book of Joe. You know, really I was very oppressed
with Derek Shelton. First of all, when he was hired
by the Twins, he admitted that with the Pittsburgh Pirates
he lost his job there, that he kind of lost
touch in terms of the day to day communication with players.
This is one of the reasons why I really like
managers on their second job. I think it is there
(17:22):
is a learning curve to the job. I think he's
going to be better this time around. But it was
interesting because he did spend some time with MLB Radio
and MLB Network. Derek Shelton did, so he worked in
the media for mostly after getting let go by the
Pirates last year, and now he's back on the job,
and he told me the difference now is he's had
(17:43):
to remind himself to be more positive in terms of
being a manager because he working in the media, you
tend to at least highlight the negative and not dwell
on it. Here's what he told me, Joe, and I
want your comments on this. The negative component to the
media is not that the media is spewing the negative,
but you always have to be able to critiqu things
(18:04):
that are going on. It's part of what you do
and that's part of what I was doing back then.
This is Shelton speaking, and I think getting back to
this side of it and really realizing the majority of
stuff that's talked about is what we're not doing or
what we should do, and I want to make sure
we're focusing on positive things. There are going to be
things that happen every night, regardless of the game and
(18:25):
how well it's played, that is screwed up, and a
lot of times it becomes the highlight, like this guy
didn't do this and he didn't do that well. I
want to make sure we're focusing on what we are
doing well while still teaching to the moments when we
do make mistakes. I thought that was really probably more
of a commentary on the media Joe that it is
(18:47):
on managing. But for a guy who's gotten back and
forth now in the last calendar year, I thought it
was in a student observation that getting back into the
dugout man, You're like, man, I was probably thinking too
negatively in that other job, and there's no place for
it here on this job.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Chelte is he's a thinker and he and I had
a great relationship there. It's entertainment. We're in the entertainment business.
Everybody's got a job to do. So when it comes
down to the media side of things, you're right and
I and I've often talked to different media guys one
on one and afterwards I would actually tell them, listen,
that was a great question, It was a great observation,
(19:26):
and I actually learned something from that.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
From you.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Most of the time it was a print media because
I think the print media guys have more time to
really extrapolate their thoughts. You see them every day, especially
the guys that you work with every day, and if
you have some really sharp ones man, I you know,
like Mark Topkin as an example down here in Tampa Bay,
Mark would always come up with stuff. Bruce Levine with
the in Chicago, Bruce was always always had some gosh,
(19:53):
it was almost like he read in my mind. I
couldn't believe it sometimes and I would go up to
these guys afterwards and say, you know, that was good.
So from the media perspective, I really look to learn
a lot from these guys if you really pay attention
and just don't get adversarial. Now there's some kind of
guys sometimes like you run into a call mister two
that again has a job to do, and his job
(20:13):
would be to create controversy, and so he would take
the you know, the the negative side of what was
going on, and then you had to react to that too.
So first of all, I have to understand that it's entertainment.
Everybody's got a job to do. But if you as
a manager, if you really listen to what's being asked
to you in these in these sessions, there's there's something
to be learned there and again, and any time I did,
(20:34):
I would tell these guys in a private conversation, yes,
positives and negatives. That would be my whole gig and
instructional leagues on a daily basis, I would point out
the positives and the negatives to the players. That would
start out the negatives and always finish with the positive
side of things. It's important to make sure that they
understand it. There's accountability issues here and you just can't
(20:55):
sugarcoat things and gloss over things and just everything's groovy
all the time. And again, this is a private conversation.
It does not have to be a public conversation. Praise public,
criticized privately. So that's that was another part of my
gig that I learned, and finally, when things are going poorly,
I would get more involved in coaching. I would actually
ask Rick Vaughan or Peter Chase or Adam chatscow listen,
(21:18):
I need my calendar a little bit more clear before
the game regarding media involvement, so that I can have
more time to get out on the field and get
involved directly with what was going on. Actually, like right
when I was let go by the Angels, I had
already set it up that I was going to start
trying to get out, not trying. I was going to
get out and feel more more diligently early because because
and the part of it is, I want my coaches
(21:40):
to coach. I don't want to interfere with their coaches.
I don't want them to feel like there anybody's looking
over their shoulder. Ever, so, people are hired to do
certain jobs. You let them do their job. You staut
of the way you're there. If you see things that
are going sideways, of course you interject out. Otherwise you
let them do their jobs. And I was really big
on that. But when things went poorly, I thought it
was important that I got out there. And then because
(22:02):
a lot of times it's just about reinforcement and letting
letting your players know it's okay and we got this.
And as a coach, I'm able to point out things
as I coach him in here so long answer. But
there's a lot of different layers to that particular subject
right there, and that's how I viewed it. And and
gets back down to the great Andy Freed, who announces
(22:23):
for the Tampa bay Rays.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
I love Andy's great radio voice.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
But the one day where he and I and David
Wills are doing the pre game and I might have
been upset about something, he says, remember one thing.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
It's when in the entertainment business.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
I always I always held that in the back of
my head and it was Andy, I think that said
it to me first, and it's true. So take yourself seriously,
but never take yourself too seriously.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Then really good stuff.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I knew that would interest you, and I think about
especially managing in New York. Aaron Boone gets a lot
of grief when the Yankees are not playing well, and
a lot of Yankee fans want to hear him, like
old school Billy Martin's style, rip into the team about
how badly they're playing.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
He just will not do that. He will not go there.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
And I think that's how you have to manage in
today's game, right find the brighter side of things.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
But you also can control the narrative.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
You know this, Joe as a manager, you spend so
much time in front of the microphones.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
I thought that was one of the best qualities that
Joe Torre had.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
He was able to change the conversation, the narrative to
something that was more in a positive vein.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
He was a great storyteller.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
He had just a way of I don't want to
say manipulating the media, but giving them things that they
could run with that will maybe distracted from the fact
the team had lost four or five in a row.
In any case, he was a master at that, and
I think I look at Carlos Mendoza, who's really good
at it. He's under that challenge right now when it
seems like the world is collapsing around you and all
(23:48):
the questions are going to be And we just went
through all the players who were struggling on the bets
and why this team is not hitting him, why they're
not playing good defense, and why certain guys haven't panned out.
The way, they thought it's his job to sort of
change that narrative, at least without being pollyannish, And that's
a skill set. I think it's part of that. The
manager's job now is to create the right atmosphere publicly,
(24:13):
not just privately in the clubhouse.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yeah, everybody wants the pound of flesh. I had to
go through that early on in my managerial career because
you're managed in the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. My god,
that's one hundred lost season automatically that first year, and
you know, as a manager, as a coach, anything that
you're bringing to the table at that point is really
overshadowed by losing, and so you're going to look You're
going to look like you're incompetent or domb or whatever
(24:35):
you want to call it baseball wise, But you just
you're just trying to put something in place that be
that that's going to turn the tide around, and you're
going to take all the things that you've learned and
eventually hopefully they're going to work out properly in your favor.
But in the meantime, you look really bad. And for me,
it was always about with the media, you're playing defense
all the time, you're always playing defense. You're always moving
(24:56):
your feet, you're always staying in front, you're always going
shelfing your feet back and forth because you're losing. And
when you're losing in baseball talking about baseball as a
manager versus the media, you're playing d You're always playing
d man because you're always defending people, you're always defending situations.
But then all of a sudden, things start going better,
and then you start winning a couple of games, and
(25:16):
then you become pretty good. Now you're on Now you're
on the offensive. So now it's just it's just that
was my mental attitude towards that I felt that. I
think it's true. So when you're when you're building something,
be prepared to play defense because eventually you're going to
get to the point where you could play little offense.
And both sides of this are very important regarding your
(25:36):
development as a as a manager and your ability. And again,
I don't want to use the word handle the press,
but to work with the press and the media, and
so both sides are really important to learn. Both sides
are important to pay attention to. And it's true you
go from defense to offense. Bad team, the good team.
That's how it works.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
It's funny.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Well, you know, watching Tony Vattello, the manager came from
college baseball managing the Giants now has actually been some
observations that he is too forthcoming. He actually brought up
the fact that there had been a couple of clubhouse
incidents that people found out through the manager, which as
you know, never happened.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Somebody's revealing anything about what happens on the clubhouse.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
So maybe there is something I would as someone in
the media, I don't think it's possible to be too forthcoming,
but in the business of baseball, maybe there is.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Well you've heard me talk about, you know, go Jack
Ryan on him, and you know, briefly, the protagonist in
the Clancy books, Jack Ryan was always very forthcoming and
accountable in his comments to whomever regarding what was going
on in the White House and government whatever. And he
would always know he wasn't your talking about the president's
(26:49):
relationship with the drug bust dealer. No, mister President, not
only was one of your friends, he was one of
your best friends. As opposed to like trying to spin
and push him away from it, because the moment he
was not only one of his friends, but one of
his best friends. And at this point that kind of
like diffuses a situation as opposed to adding fuel to it.
(27:10):
I think it's most important. And I felt this too,
because there's a lot of times you'll get information regarding
injuries whatever after the game. They know you're going to say,
be in the front office, they're gonna be talking to
the press, and you're going to get advice in regards
to how to handle this or how to deal with
it or what to say, and that would really upset me.
I didn't like that at all. And then, for instance,
started with Rick Vaughan and I said, RB, we're going
(27:31):
Jack Ryan tonight because if we go Jack Ryan, this
is going to get the fused.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
It's going to go away. Everybody's going to know what's
going on and no big deal.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
A lot of a lot of the parts of that,
A large part of that is front office concerns about
potentials to make deals and if you're again displaying too
much information, it can only come back and hurt you.
So that the tight lip nature of all that is
to conceal information that may come back and hurt you
at a later moment. Regarding probably most more than anything
(28:00):
a deal meaning acquiring somebody or losing somebody. So that's it,
I mean, and I would like to do Jack Ryan
and r V would come in sometimes and he would say,
this is a Jack Ryan moment. I said, absolutely, it is,
and that's it. That's that's probably the most important thing
I learned, and that was to be a reading. Is
that when it comes down to being honest and just
(28:20):
being transparent with the press or people in charge in
the situation with the public, just do that, and if
you do it that way, the story kind of diffuses
and goes away.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I love that thinking rip the band aid off. It
reminds me of you know, you know this managing and
you argue with the umpire. Yeah, if the empire right
away says, you know, sorry, Joe, I missed it, that's
the end of the argument.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
That's it. Walk Away, walk away. I don't know how
many times that happened.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
And I'll go up and later say, man, thanks, that
was great, and you have way more respect for that
person in that moment.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Sticky, we had kind of a raised theme going there
with the Cradle of Coaches, if you will Baseball version.
I'm not sure if you've seen TODZ Bradley pitch this
year for the Minnesota Twins. We mentioned that Twins are
off to a great start. TODJS Bradley is having a
breakout year. He kind of re engineered his splitter. I
always had a good arm in the raised system, and
(29:16):
this year he's thrown the splitter a lot more, leaning
into it, swing and miss pitch for him mid twenties pitcher.
A very interesting trade last year at the deadline, the
Rays traded a guy with a plus arm, starting pitcher
with four and a half years of control for a
setup orliever in Griffin Jacks would tell you how much
(29:37):
relief pitching his value these days. But a breakout year
so far for Todze Bradley. We'll keep an eye on him.
He's a very interesting case. He was a two way
player in high school and really didn't really think about
pitching too much until his senior year when the scouts
were all over him like you've got a major league arm.
Admitted last year when he got to the Twins, he
(29:58):
had never done any homework going into a start, did
nothing about looking at the other team's hitters.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
So he's just learning that side of it.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
But I want to take you back to twenty nineteen
Joe with the Tampa Bay Rays. I'm going to give
you the starting pitchers that were in their system. In
their major league rotation, they had Tyler Glass Now who's
twenty five, and Blake Snell, who is twenty six.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
In the minor leagues.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
In addition to Glass Now and Snell, Christopher Sanchez, Matthew Libertore,
Joe Ryan, Jeffrey Springs, Tas Bradley, Shane Buss.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
All in the Rais.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
System, and all of them were traded, and I can't
tell you they got a haul for those pictures. In fact,
most of those trades did not work out. Christopher Sanchez
for Curtis Meade, Blake Snell for Luis Pattino, Joe Ryan,
that was a Nelson Cruz deal, you know, to rent
a guy for the postseason run. And now you've got
(30:57):
Bradley for Griffin Jacks. I mean, the Rays do so
many things well, and I understand a lot of times
if it's Snell or Glass Now, you know they're coming
up to you know, either an arbitration year or a
free agent year. You're trying to get something on the
dollar rather than just lose them for nothing. I understand that.
But they have produced an amazing amount of starting pitchers,
and they have traded at a young age a whole
(31:20):
ton of starting pitchers, and it looked like Taj Bradley
is the latest one.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
That's because they know they're going to grow another one.
They can give it of these.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
That goes back to my time there. Look at the
starting pitching we had. Oh my god, we used to
throw a thousand innings a year. That was first thing
in spring training. I would challenge the starting pitchers to
a thousand innings. That's wasn't necessarily five guys. A lot
of times it might be six, seven, maybe eight guys.
But I wanted a thousand innings out of our starting pitching.
And when you do that, my god, your bullpen was
(31:50):
so much more effective. It was just it's just a
much better way I think of being consistently successful annually.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
And because you're always talking.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
About the fluctuations of bullpens, especially when you apply this much,
there's these many innings to them. And the other thing
about bullpen guys I don't think is ever get spoken
about enough. And I was really into it was the
emotional component to them. Everybody talks about the physical. You know,
how many pictures that he throw many days in between
blah blah blah. I was warned as much into the
(32:20):
emotional bullets spent in the you know, the different moments
that these guys would come into a game, your quote
unquote high leverage guys. There's a lot of emotion going
into that situation. And when these guys fail on any
particular night of things don't work out right, that's that's heavy. Now,
there's some guys that you knew that were able to
deal with that better than others, and you always knew that.
(32:41):
And then the guys you just watch. You know, when
a guy's going really good, he's on a row, it's
going to stay on that roll. But the moment he
has a hiccup, man heads up. And so there's these
emotional expenditures that are part of that also that I
don't think you ever get spoken about. So, yeah, the
rays And again I thought about this too. I'd love
to know regarding this guy, the the starting pitching glut
(33:04):
that they've had over the years, and how much of
it is really based on eyeballs And you know, the
scouts in the stands and how much the percentage wise
of trust is involved in you know, old time methods
of scouting versus you know, more analytically involved. I'd like
to believe at least sixty percent at least would be eyeballs,
(33:29):
I would think would be the right way to go
it to go after I think even seventy five percent
eyeballs compared to just pure numbers and whatever the pitch
shaping and everything else that the analytical world might tell them.
So it's curious because I know they've had a real
wonderful consistency.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You talked about coaching staff.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Their evaluation system has been consistent for a long time.
I think that plays into their success too.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
You know, earlier I mentioned in the name of Billy Martin,
I did cover Billy Martin as a manager. You mentioned
Matt Keo getting hit by that line drive in Scottsdale Stadium,
that pitch for Billy in Oakland. There was a three
year period where Billy Martin led him complete forty games.
Forty complete games in three years, and he was in
his mid twenties at the time. Obviously those days are
(34:15):
long gone, but I bring up Billy Martin Joe, because
I don't know if you have ever done this, flipping
the postgame spread.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Billy Martin was famous for that.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I saw it with my own eyes, and we may
have just lost the last manager who flipped postgame spreads.
We'll talk about that right after this on the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Joe.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
There's probably a lot of listeners wondering what does that
mean flipping the postgame spread? Right back in the day,
especially on the visiting side, the clubhouse attendant would get
the postgame food and read it out on a long table,
usually a fold out table in the middle of the room,
and players would get off the field and dive into it. Well,
(35:13):
it was too easy of a target for a lot
of managers frustrated by a really bad loss, especially Billy Martin.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
I know your buddy Gene Mak was known for this
as well.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
They would literally flip the table.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And I've seen the pot rose and the meat loaf
on the floor of Tiger Stadium in Detroit after Billy
Martin and the Yankees had a tough loss.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Did you ever flip the post game spread?
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Joe?
Speaker 4 (35:37):
I did not, never, But one of my favorite flips
is Frank Costanza in Seinfeld when he flips the spread
when over the he made the bad beef for during
the Korean conflict or something like that. Yeah, but the
spread flipping, I never, I never would do something like that.
It was like more sequestered as I came along before.
(35:57):
It was like kind of like you're saying, like right
in the middle of the locker room where we could
really make a statement.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
It was too inviting.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
Now you have to go like you have to go
into a kitchen and take like one pen out at
a time and start throwing it. At that time, it
was just like a big table, right, and you're just
like a big card table. They would just flip that
sucker and there'd be food everywhere. It was outstanding. I
remember I wasn't there for it, but I when we
with the with the Angels in ninety five, when we
(36:25):
had the thing with the we lost the big lead
and eventually came back tied one game playoff with the Maritis.
But this we had a four game series with Oakland
that we had to win all four games and Seattle
to go to Texas and split. Forced to have a
one game playoff, And that's exactly what happened. So we
sweep Oakland in California, and I think Tony at some
(36:49):
point there during that last four games of the season
Oakland's out of it. Uh, he was that upset that
I heard that. It was a pretty good flip that
went on down there. So it was always it's always entertaining, man,
and that's that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
And I've seen chairs thrown.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
I've been there for a chair thrown in a meeting,
almost like a Bobby Knight, but I've never I'm not
actually don't even think I've been privy to see a
spread flip. But it's it's legendary stuff, this hysterical stuff.
And actually the manager but he does. Then he goes
in his office, grabs a couple hundred dollars bills and
(37:23):
takes it out to the club because at that time,
the club he paid for all of that too. That
was coming out of the clubby's pocket, and he would
make tips based on the food and how good it was.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
It said.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
So there's this like a really complicated situation but really entertaining.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
No, I think the manager realizes right away he literally
has to pay for it. I mentioned gene Walk, there
was one time where he flipped a spread and it
actually whatever sauce there was on the menu that night
got on the suit of Wes Covington, so he had
to buy West and News suit. But I bring it
up because the passing of Phil Garner, who may be
(37:57):
the last manager at least I know of who flipped
the postgames spread all scrap iron and just a bittersweet irony.
As well, another great second baseman, legendary gritty guy, Davy Lopes,
passed away as well, to second basemen who just kind
of defined what you want a ballplayer in terms of
(38:18):
leaving it all on the field.
Speaker 5 (38:20):
Both also I think very smart players.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I know they are known for their grittiness and dirty
uniforms and all that, but I think it overshadowed the
fact that both of them were two of the smartest,
the highest baseball IQ guys you could find. My most
amazing note on Davey Lopes, who I think Joe. I
think he redefined the role of first base coach. He
used to be largely a ceremonial job. The manager would
(38:44):
have a buddy put out there. The Yankees once hired
Mickey Mantle to be a part time first base coach
to try to sell some tickets at Yankee Stadium.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Davy Lopes was able to see the tells and patterns
and sequences and pitchers and literally tell people when to run.
And with the Philadelphia Phillies, he had a four year
stretch when the Philly one of the World Series, including
that one year where they were successful on about eighty
four percent of their attempts. And you look at the
numbers for Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Jason Worth, they had
(39:15):
their best years.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Well, David Lopes was coaching first base, so David Lopes
was a base dealer himself.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Most amazing note on David Lopes, he was the original
forty to forty player and you're like, wait a second.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
He never had forty home runs.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
He stole forty bases at the age of forty, the
only player in baseball history. He did it for Dallas
Green in nineteen eighty five with the Cubes. He only
started sixty seven games that year at Joe, but he
got into a bunch of games coming off the bench.
He stole more than forty bases at the age of forty.
(39:51):
Nobody else in baseball history has done that, and you
look at his combination of home runs and stolen bases,
and only three other players five foot nine and smaller
ever put up those kind of power numbers and speed numbers,
and they're all in the Hall of Fame, including Tim
Raines as well. So two second basemen, two former major
(40:13):
league managers as well to the grittiest players you'd ever see,
Davey Lopes and Phil Garner. Condolences to their families on
their passing.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
Absolutely, and I.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Knew both of them. I didn't know either one really well.
I think actually worked against Garner, I think as a manager.
But I know, like you're saying, highly respected among the
groups that they had, and you're right about Davey Lopes
when he redefined the first base coaching. I think Dave
McKay right now, I still with the Diamondbacks. I've known
(40:45):
him forever. We came up kind of together in instructional
leagues and when he was with Oakland. But he's another
guy that really takes that job very seriously.
Speaker 5 (40:53):
I'm glad you brought that up, Joe.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
If I can interrupt you for one second, go ahead, Yeah,
Dave McKay, let's give him his props. I actually was
speaking with Bryce Harper the other day, he told me
an amazing story about Dave McKay. I mean, he's another
one where his runners always have a very high percentage
when they steal, he said. And Harper, obviously playing first base,
is privy to all this. Within the earshot, Dave McKay
(41:15):
will call out a number to the base runner. He'll
say three, maybe the runner doesn't go, or we'll say five,
maybe the runner doesn't go. But then we'll say another number.
And Harper hasn't figured out the pattern here, He'll say
eight and the runner will go, and ninety nine percent
of the time is safe. The runners are going on
the audible queue of the first base coach. I mean,
(41:39):
how good is that?
Speaker 4 (41:40):
It was outstanding and we had something a similar system,
but we were relying when I say we with the Angels,
because we had Fredo Griffin at first and running Rennicky
at third. I think we've talked about this in the past.
Like I was, my job was to try to get
the signs from the bench to the catcher because at
that time the running game was completely controlled that way.
I think it's to a certain extent, but not as
(42:03):
much now with the r and nobody wants to pitch out,
nobody hits, hitting runs, et cetera. But if we were
able to get their signs when they were throwing over
the first base or not the opposition pitchers, and it
really played well for us with the Yankees, and part
of the reason why we were so good against the
Yankees in the late nineties early two thousands, well, we
would get you get the signs. So once I got
(42:24):
the sign Rags would get to know what the signs
was and then and afraid it would be at first
base triangulation and we would work this thing where we'd
get the signs and then some we would relay it
to the runner prior to the pitch. And when the
runner knew there'd be no throw over to first base,
get he get even heavier on his right side and
just take off. Because everybody only threw over when they
(42:47):
got the sign to And that's why I, as a manager,
I wanted my pitchers to throw to first base even
if they didn't get to sign to throw the first
base from the catcher, because I wanted to make sure
that nobody was picking up our signs. If they thought
they did, we would confuse them automatically because they think
you're not throwing over, and all of a sudd and
you do throw over. So that's that's part of the
game within the game that you know, people really don't
(43:08):
talk about. So yes, when you get that going on,
when you get that that little tip and Dave's David
McKay's the same way as Davey Loaves had been.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
It's a tremendous advent. Is you kidding me? Because it
blows up the pitcher's head. The catchers really lose their confidence.
You're constantly putting pressure on the middle infield and defense,
people are moving all the time.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
It really, it really does matter. It's not part of
the game as much as it had been in the past.
But that's why these these first base coaches. There's a
young man it's been with the Giants, I think in
the Mets, is it Richardson?
Speaker 5 (43:39):
Yeah, It'swan Richardson. I'm glad you brought him up because
we talked that changes. The Mets didn't want to pay him.
I mean, he's a difference maker.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Brandon Neimo had never stolen bases until Richardson got there.
Ron Soto went from a tenth percentile based runner to
a ninetieth percentile, led the league in stolen bases, and
because he trusted the first base coach who puts in
a tremendous amount of work. I mean, just pay these guys.
The Mets didn't want to pay Jeremy Haffen. They're the
pitching coach or Richard's in the first base coach. When
(44:06):
you got good ones, Man, you know this, Joe, coaches
make a difference.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
Yeah, well that's you just said it exactly right. There
are absolute difference makers as coaches in the major leagues,
even in the minor leagues. And it's too bad because
they always get clumped as considered that, oh, we could
replace and we could get another one of those things.
And it always used to really really upset me when
I would hear that kind of stuff because that was
(44:32):
part of the landscape. When you get like like Mike Borzello.
We talked about him so many times. Borzy I can't
believe is not on somebody's bench. I cannot believe that.
That to me is like sinful that they haven't figured
out how important this guy would be to a bench
and what he's able to do in game, pregame and
(44:52):
in game to the success of a group. And I've
talked about Tim Bust. Tim Buss is with the Angels
right now. Bussy is the I don't know exactly what
he was, my vice president of stuff. I call him
the VP of stuff. He would start every day out.
He gets them in a huddle and hysterical. He has
his own little methods, his own little ways. It's way
better than any kind of late night comedy that's going
(45:12):
on right now. He's he's way better than any of that.
But he is. These are glue guys. These guys we've
talked to glue guys. These guys, my god, superstars love them.
The last guy on the bench loves them, superstars. And
they these are the kind of guys that they could
they could give the superstar hard time. And I saw it, man,
and it's so like with the Cubbies and Sweat, you know,
(45:35):
twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
You got a bunch of guys that are pretty good.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
He had everybody was in his crosshairs and everybody would laugh.
So this is the stuff that's not paid attention to,
that is so important to success. And you're a thousand
percent right, these coaches, you need to understand who's a
really good at something, and then you really need to
understand you got to pay him to keep them because
they they do make a difference. First came to you know,
(46:00):
with me, came to life for me with the two
thousand to Angel's coaching staff, and I've already talked about it.
Whenever you keep your coaches together, that first meeting of
those meetings they're in the spring training and then this
season so much more comfortable because there's trust dripping everywhere,
as opposed to consternation and worry because you don't know
(46:21):
who's talking to who when the coaching staff becomes a
little bit fragmented.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Heads up before we get to your wisdom of the day, Joe,
and mindful of Derek Shelton's words, I don't want to
be completely negative. We did start with the Mets and
kind of what's wrong with them, But let's go a
little bit positive here because I know the ABS system
has brought a lot of grief to umpires, right. They
seem to get noticed a lot more for their mistakes.
(46:46):
Before their mistakes were matters of opinion. Now it's a
matter of fact that everybody can see in bright lights
on the scoreboard, So worth pointing out that I think
it's also a highlighting how good these guys are. Just
as two examples for you, Eric Beckus, he's in his
fourth year umpiring, he's just thirty five years old. His
first three games behind the plate, he called four hundred
and sixty six pitches. Only one was overturned by a challenge. Right,
(47:12):
there were nine challenges, eight were confirmed. I mean, that's impressive.
And will Little again, a younger umpire forty two years old,
three games, five hundred and one pitches called, only one
overturn call on ten challenges. So I know we can
look at the negative side and say there's a lot
(47:32):
of umpires out there, like a C. B. Buckner famously
his first game behind the dish with abs was too noticeable.
But let's also give credit to these guys who are
doing an amazing job. Now that the strike zone is
defined by literally fractions of an inch, you're making five
hundred calls major league velocity and spin, and you only
get one wrong.
Speaker 5 (47:53):
That's pretty darn impressive.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
Well, I've always said and I believe that it's always
we are the best officiated game of all. You know,
the concern for me would be the confidence and shortstop
makes it. I saw Cavero make that air last night
at shorts left. The ball was a bullet and he
got off to the side a little bit, but probably
had it just to see it better. But uh, you
(48:15):
see E six on the scoreboard right now, you're gonna
see e e U E umpire.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
You know, it's hard.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
It's hard when you you know you'd make your when
your mistake is absolutely glorified, magnified whatever affide in front
of the whole stadium and then of course the viewing audience.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
It's tough.
Speaker 4 (48:34):
And because to me, you know, the umpires really need
their confidence to be very good and making those those split,
split second decisions. You're right, though, there's it's going to
point out the negative, and those negatives aren't going to
go away unless hopefully, you know, weirdly, in some way,
I want to believe that these guys that have not
been so good or have a reputation of not being
(48:54):
that good, should hopefully become better. They may spend more
time studying because they do not want to be embarrassed
in front of the entire stadium public and the viewing
public in general. So that might be the offshoot of this,
but I think it's really important that whoever's in charge
of these things with the umpires, that they got to
keep their confidence. Man, they got to keep their confidence
(49:15):
to be good. It's still the best officiated game of all.
And kudos to those umpires because that's that's pretty impressive
to only have one I know, Will I don't know
backus as well.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
But yeah, that kind of clarity.
Speaker 4 (49:28):
And reputation and that kind of a positive result, that's
pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Good stuff, Joe, What do you got to take us
home here on this edition of the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah, I was going with about repetition was my.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
Thought for the day, and I was thinking the Dodgers
were really like in the front of my mind because
talk about repeating, and we talked about earlier this year
how it's difficult it's going to be for them to
repeat and right now they might be playing better than
they have the last two three years. I don't know,
guys are starting to resurface. They're they're pitching depth is great,
et cetera, et cetera. But repetition, So for me, it
(50:03):
was about repeating to win their division, win another World Series,
which looks like it's going to be within their purview again.
But then repetition in another facet would just be skill
and learning.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
It's exigular.
Speaker 4 (50:17):
Repetition is the mother of learning, the father of action,
which makes it the architect of accomplishment. That's what we
do every day, you know. Baseball players do that every day,
and there's all you know. For me, there was always
a point of diminishing returns that you have to really
be aware of. You have to know when to back off.
You have to know when to give the body and
(50:37):
mind to rest. But that's that's another subject completely, Tony Robinson.
Repetition is the mother of skill. So I'm into it.
I believe in it one thousand percent. I thought, good
drill work done well. You just don't do drill work
and accept when a player is doing the drill work
and he and he's not doing it well and just
(51:00):
just giving him positive feedback for that.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
No, no, no, no.
Speaker 4 (51:04):
Good drill work done well and properly while you're watching
it and he's feeling it is really the It is
the architect of accomplishment. So anyway, the Dodgers started it
out for me with what they're doing right now as
a team and then as an individual, that's what that's
how we get good at what we do. Repetition being
the mother skills. And then there's even the other side
(51:25):
of the world that talks about when it comes to
the art, repetition is the death of art. And then
we're talking about something completely different, boredom, we're stagnation, completely different.
I'm miss talking about skill work, and I think the
Dodgers are really representing that well right now.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
And almost every player there.
Speaker 4 (51:40):
Is your pitcher you just talked about, that's done. He's
done better this year with the Twins because all of
a sudden he's doing his work. It's it's a very
important repetition.
Speaker 5 (51:53):
Yeah, which reminds me. And I'd like to get your
quick take on this, Joe.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Back in the Steinbreder days with the Yankees, if the
Yankees messed up, save some ground balls.
Speaker 5 (52:01):
Or relay, they were out there the next day drilling.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
That was George Steinberg's football mentality from his day's coaching
in Northwestern I get that, but were you a big
believer in drilling guys not as punishment but to tighten
things up to get them out early.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
Yes, that was the reason to get them out early,
and I would do that proactively. In other words, I
never wanted to be punitive. So we'd come off of
the road, and I would make sure that the coaches
told the players, they say, it's a ten game homestand
I would want the pitchers out there once, maybe twice,
to go through some PfP drills. And yes, I would
want the position players to come out, whether it's the review,
(52:40):
the bunt defenses, whatever the review necessary was. I wanted
it to be announced in advance of so that they
never felt as though it was a punitive situation. And
the best time to do this kind of stuff is
when things are going well. That's when it really reinforces
in a good way quickly. One of the big differences
in the twenty fifteen Cubs was the first time we
(53:03):
had a relay drills at Sloan Park on one of
the backfields.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
We stunk.
Speaker 4 (53:09):
That's the first time the players heard me yell at
him man. I was appalled by the lack of concern
about doing this right. So we stopped the cutoff and
relay drill and we went into relay catch, which is
something you did with your rookie ball guys. You get
a line of four guys and the ball go from
one to the from an end to two middle guys
to another end and come back. And we turned it
(53:30):
into a competition and the guys really got into We
started putting money on the line for the line that
had the quickest balls up and down without dropping them,
because if you missed a one of the cutoff guys
in between and the relay guys, you had to go
get the ball before you could proceed.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
So it was really fun.
Speaker 4 (53:47):
I swear I'd love to have an actual accounting for
how many times we screwed up a cutoff and relay
that year.
Speaker 3 (53:53):
I thought we were fabulous at it. These are the
kind of things.
Speaker 4 (53:56):
Never make it punitive, make it proactive, planet in advance.
Speaker 5 (54:01):
It's one of my favorite things in baseball. Well, relay
play with all the bodies.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
Moving around on the field, responsibilities for everybody, and when
it's done well, it's like a ballet watching it work
like that.
Speaker 4 (54:13):
And always remember the trail runner. That's the guy that
probably isn't running as well. The lead runner is running
hart normally all the time. The trail runner is the
guy that's relying on the ball going ahead to that
the lead runner to the lead base. I always wanted
them to be the eyes, the trail guy in the tandem.
Always pay attention to the runner, the trail runner, because
(54:34):
that's the guy that's probably going to be a little
bit more cavalier about it, because he thinks the play's
not coming to him.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Repetition, the thought of a day will rinse and repeat
and do this again next week.
Speaker 3 (54:45):
Joe, see then, well said, brother, Thanks man.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
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