The NFL's Rooney Rule & defending Michael Jordan's leadership

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the Doug gott Leap Show podcast.
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Find your local station for the Doug got Leaves Show
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fs R. You're listening to Fox Sports Radio. Hey, welcome

(00:26):
in to the Tuesday Podcast, and boy t j Oshanzada
is gonna join us. Super Bowl champion quarterback and CBS
NFL analyst Phil Simms, Adam Kaplan, uh Fox Sports Radio
and series x M NFL Inside will join us as
teams are reporting back to their facilities and guys start
to get their left home. Plus Casey Johnson, who's Bulls
insider for NBC Sports Chicago and was an insider for

(00:49):
the Chicago Tribune going back to when the Bulls were
winning championships. But first, let me give you my perspective
on the new Rooney rule and some of the potential
new rule that was tabled. Alert today, Boom America, Doug
Gottlieb Show, Fox Sports Radio come into you from the
wonderful sunny Slowly but surely opening City of Angels. Hope you,

(01:13):
your family, your friends are all well. As sports getting close,
getting close to back to business. NFL uh these um
NFL teams allowing players to be back on their premises.
Tom Brady working out with the Tomcats his wide receivers
in Tampa. A lot of stuff going on. Casey Johnson
Bulls inside NBC Sports Chicago is gonna join us. NBC

(01:36):
Sports Chicago printed out a a portion of an unfinished
memoir from the late Jerry Krause. Does that give greater
clarity and understanding for what really took place when the
Bulls broke up after the last dance? Plus, Phil Simms
will join us. Adam Kaplan, who's an NFL insider for

(01:57):
serious XM's gonna join us, and my man t g
A hush Man Zada is gonna join us. We'll talk
all things Kobe, Lebron, Jordan's and oh yes, some football
with the former Pro Bowl wide receiver. A lot to
get to one hour in twenty minutes from right now.
Phil Simms will join us. One hour from right now,
I will I will tell you where Lebron was actually

(02:20):
better than m J or is better than m J.
All right. But before we get to all of that,
let me let me start with this. The NFL tabled
tabled the incentive portion of the new Rooney Rule. So
here's essentially what the Rooney rule is. It doesn't say

(02:41):
you have to hire African American candidates. It simply says
you have to interview one African American candidate for every
head coaching position. Now the new portion of the rule
says you have to have you have to interview at
least two African American candidates. The portion of the adjustment
to the Rooney Rule, which you saw so much pushback

(03:06):
from from all over, was this incentive laden kind of
amendment to the rule where teams would actually gain draft
stock if they hired a coach, general manager or quarterback coach. Okay, coach,
general manager, or quarterback coach who's a minority. Right. So, uh,

(03:33):
the NFL felt the pushback from the black community, felt
the pushback from the coaching community, felt the pushback from
the right, from the left, even the middle. It was
one of those you know, when you do a broadcast,
you're calling a basketball game or football game, you're an analyst,
something I do and both fan bases think you're rooting

(03:56):
for the other team. You did a great job. When
you are trying to pass rule and everybody thinks it's
a bad rule, even it's a good kind of comes
from a good place, that's a sign it's a bad rule.
But I'll tell you what the NFL does a really
good job of is trying trying. I understand that there

(04:22):
there's a lot of downside if this rule ever gets past.
Now remember, in this politically correct world, they didn't say
no chance, no shot never. They simply tabled it, which means, hey,
maybe next year. What the NFL is doing is saying, look,

(04:43):
we realize that there's a problem here. These numbers don't
look good. We can't be we can't be the biggest, boldest,
best professional sport in America and not have a representative
ratio of blacks to why in our front office and
coaching staff that is in anywhere, nowhere close to the

(05:07):
representation of minorities on the football field, right? And and
what are we told so often times about why women
can never really be a coach in the NFL? One
they never played. Okay, why aren't former players and their
football knowledge being fostered and grown so that they can
become the next generation of coaches. And if that's the case,

(05:30):
why are there more black coaches? Right? It's the reasonable thing.
Basketball has a similar ratio, if not even more African
American players. But they also they don't have this problem
at least in coaching staffs. It's different the front office. Now, look,
I can explain away the front office and go into
the Hey, it really does take away not not a
ton of guys that have played have the chance to

(05:52):
go and be a scout and climb the ladder. But
that is actually changing in basketball. You're seeing Elton brand
Isaiah Thomas of several times I've been over run franchises.
Maggie Johnson ran a franchise, Michael Jordan ran a franchise,
owns a franchise. Now are the numbers perfect and a
perfect snapshot of what former basketball players look like. No,

(06:16):
But there's also a much wider field of candidates from
all races that can be represented in the front office
as opposed in coaching staffs. But players will listen to
guys who did it. And it should be pointed out
that Sean McVeigh was a player, John mccrug John Gruten
was a player right, And they're the type of players

(06:38):
that didn't have this superlative talent, the superstar talent of others.
So they had to have a keen understanding of every
different position and every different nuance in order to make
it at any level. I got, I get all that,
But if you've ever been in a relationship, you want

(07:00):
the other person to hear you. It doesn't mean that
you can have a dramatic change immediately and drop everything
and be somebody you're not. The NFL is always going
to be the boys club. It is always going to
be a place where you know you, you hire guys.

(07:20):
You know, that's any business. And one of the things
that I've been a big proponent of the Rooney rule
is I think the interviews do help because it establishes
breaks down walls and builds relationships, breaks down walls and
builds relationships. And when it does so, all right, when

(07:44):
it does so, when it breaks down walls and establishes relationships,
you may not get the job that time, but now
when somebody else, everybody talks. And for example, Brian Flores
wild people with his interviews a year before he ended
up getting the Dolphins job. So that when he the
Dolphins job came open, everyone said, you know, it would
be great Brian Flores. Look, I look at this as

(08:08):
a net positive for the NFL. Net positive. They give
a little bit more substance to the Rooney rule. The
Rooney rule does in fact work, but the numbers haven't
lined up recently, and it looks bad. It feels bad.
It doesn't feel like two thousand twenty in terms of

(08:28):
the hiring practices of front office members and head coaches
and offensive coordinators and quarterback coaches. Right, it just doesn't
look like it. So we need to increase and change
and tinker with the ring rule to make it better
and look much like past interference rule. See a problem,

(08:50):
try and fix a problem, and if that doesn't work,
you scrap it. That's what they did with the instant
replay for past interference. They they kind of rushed into it.
Everyone said, not a great idea, there's some flaws to it.
It only worked a handful of times, and even then

(09:11):
in the playoffs it didn't happen, and they did away
with it. But they did so because there was such
an egregious miscall that they wanted to protect themselves from
being told you're not listening to us, which is what
they're doing. Now. Look, the NFL is still gonna allow

(09:33):
you to hire whoever you like, whoever you think is
the most qualified, best candidate, but man, we we gotta
have a better process here. The NFL, also, privately, kind
of behind the scenes, hasn't made a big thing of it.
They have an intern minority coaching position on every team.
Some have have to look. They are in fact trying.

(09:53):
They are listening and watching society and seeing the evolution. Like, man,
it don't look good. And by tabling it, you're telling
the league everyone's on notice. Everyone's on notice. Doesn't mean
you have to hire somebody who's black or hispanic or

(10:13):
mixed race, mixed the sense doesn't mean you have to. Boy,
you better exhaust all possible options before you just settle
on some guy who's been doing it in the league
for a long time because well, it's his chance to
get a shot. As guys, we are we are accused
and sometimes rightfully so, of not hearing our significant other. Ah,

(10:37):
you're you're listening, but you don't hear me. This is
the NFL trying to make a change. I've seen some
reactions to the final episode of the Last Dance in
regards to Michael Jordan's and it might be the most
ridiculous criticism ever. I'll explain of coming next. Be sure
to catch the live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show
weekdays at three p m. Easter noon Pacific on Fox

(11:00):
Sports Radio in the Heart Radio aap Doug glic Show,
Fox Sports Radio. I'm one of these guys that, like
I understand the world of opinions, especially as somebody who
many people think is a contrarian. A lot of people
will have the opposite opinion of mine, and that's fine. Um,
But I've seen this opinion and it it reminds me

(11:23):
of of this, this conversation I have with my friends
about non basketball guys talking about basketball. Right. It's I
said this the other day, Um, I tweeted it the
other day, the next to last possession for the Utah Jazz.

(11:45):
Believe tomorrow night, ESPN is going to replay that final
game from the Jordan era, and what they're gonna do
is they're gonna play the broadcast sound as if it's
you know, and remember you're having it. I think Mattie
Gukas and Isaiah Thomas along with Bob Costas called the
game for NBC. So they're gonna broadcast the game as

(12:07):
if it was the game, but they're also gonna include
all the behind the scenes footage. That's a pretty cool idea, right,
So you'll probably get like the lead up what they're
doing in the locker room, and then have the game,
and then what they do in the locker room at
halftime and all the time out stuff whatever. Like, I
don't know what they can do it, but it's it
could be a great show and one of the things

(12:27):
I do admire. I've worked for three different companies ESPN, CBS,
and Fox, and each one is different, and each one
is unique, and each one has some really really big strengths.
The strength that ESPN has always had is they have
the rights to all this footage and they generally use
it that they use it like a big frustration both

(12:50):
now at Fox and when I was at ESPN regards
the n c A tournament. CBS actually Turner owns the
rights to all the highlights. Now, so what I I
doesn't I don't understand. They only let ESPN. I forget
what the negotiates four minutes or six minutes of highlights
per hour, So why don't you get thorough breakdowns of
what happened in the n c A tournament and guys

(13:12):
drawing stuff up because you don't have the rights to
do so. So you get these really really really quick highlights.
You can get all the games in I think like
four minutes, whereas ESPN all the hot But now Turner
doesn't have a show where they can play long highlights,
don't have anybody breaking them down and showing you the nuances,

(13:33):
Like that's just not how they're built, right. ESPN does
have outlets to where they can break down highlights, they
can show you coaches tape they can do, and they
use it. I think it's a strength of ESPN. There's
some weaknesses, but it's a strength. But anyway, one of
the discussions that I was having with people on on
Twitter was when Carl Alone got the ball stolen, it

(13:56):
wasn't all Karmelon's fault. For my entire adulthood, I thought
it was Karl Malone being soft for the basketball, not
seeing Michael Jordan steal the ball from the week side,
but having been a point guard and understanding what it's
like to feed the post. You gotta wait a second
or two seconds, fake as skip pass whatever, so that
Michael Jordan. Remember this is the old illegal defense rules.

(14:20):
He couldn't sit in the lane otherwise it was a
legal defense. You gotta wait for him to clear. Stockton didn't.
And it wasn't like he was being pressured by Ron
Harper or by Scottie Pippen or something. He was being
pressured by Steve Kerr, not a special defender. Stockton just
waits a second or two longer, ball fakes pass. But again,

(14:41):
that's more of an inside basketball thing. It's an inside
basketball thing, whereas the outside basketball the fans simply says, well,
Jordan stole the ball because Jordan wanted it. More right.
I see the same thing with this article from a
guy named Leander shar Latkins. He writes for Yahoo Sports.

(15:01):
He's a soccer calumnist, all right. He writes that the
documentary The Last Dance goes to enormous lengths hours of
them to make all of it, the bullying, the belittling,
the punching of teammates fine and dandy because they won
half a dozen titles. Even Steve Kerr says he's now okay,

(15:21):
with Jordan's unprompted sucker punch to his face. Jordan's never
really reckoned with his flaws and doesn't want to now either.
In the end, the second most relevatory thing about the
last dance is what a one dimensional, unamienable man Jordan
was and remains. If he knows this about himself, he

(15:43):
doesn't care. But the surprise is that after all these years,
Jordan still buys into his own It was all fine
because we won. Nonsense, This was the Michael Jordan. He
wanted us to see. Um yeah and no, okay. First

(16:04):
of all, like we want to get down to it.
Apparently it was a sucker punch of the chest. Second
of all, I've never been on a basketball team since
ninth grade that did not have a fist fight between players,
and usually those players either became or were close friends
before and definitely after the fight. Like I got into

(16:26):
fights with my college teammates, and several the fights are
with my absolute closest friends. Fights happen for a reason,
and there is a fine line between bullying and leading
and tough love. And I'm sorry, soccer guy, I'm sorry
writer guy. You weren't cut out for this. It isn't

(16:50):
for everybody. It's just not it's it's exactly like Jordan said,
you've never wanted everything. I actually think that his reflection
causes many of us former athletes to reflect upon myself
and realize, you're right, I am not cut from that cloth.
It's a different dude. Like I remember. Look, I look

(17:13):
back in my college days and I would work my
ass off of my shooting. I worked so hard in
the summer, I worked so hard in the fall, and
then we get to the season, and you know, I
had a a girlfriend who became a fiance, became a
wife after college whatever. I had friends, I like to
go out, I like to do a bunch of things.
I wanted to be in California in the summer. Wares

(17:34):
if I really, really, really really wanted to make the NBA,
not just said it, I would have lived in the gym. Yeah.
I worked on my body so that I was the
type of athlete that could compete at that level. But
some of it was out of vanity. I wanted to
look good too. If I really and during the season,
I would have lived there. Your athletes live with regret

(17:58):
all the time, even and that's the other part he
regrets not not getting a chance of the seventh title.
He he has regrets, but winning does have a cost. Look, Lebron,
we'll talk at the top of the hour about what
Lebron has done better than Jordan's. Kobe was much the

(18:18):
same way, but like, look, Kobe didn't have friends when
he Guys didn't like him when he played in the league.
And a lot of guys don't like Lebron. Now winning
has a price. They respect them, they respect them, And
there's a lot of guys that sit there and go like, man,
who I just don't have that in me. I don't

(18:40):
and and and that's okay too. And that's why you're
not legend. That's why you're not Jordan's. And remember the
burden people don't know. I don't think like the writer
he I don't know how old he is. I think
he's a little bit younger than me. I'm not sure
we understand the burden that Jordan's carried. He doesn't excuse
some of his boorish behavior, but it does explain it. Like, look,

(19:03):
this is the type of guy that's like, I can't
believe you spoke that way to Larry Bird. Hey, dopey.
Do you know Larry Bird was the most vicious trash
talker in the league, and by the way, he owned
Michael Jordan's when he was with the Celtics, they owned
him right like the pearl clutching oh my gosh over
never using a curse word, calling a good friend the

(19:27):
B word, or telling a good friend F you Sorry, dude,
this is not your deal. It's okay. That's what it
really looks like. That's what it really feels like. We're
not always here to make friends. We're not always here
to make you feel good. We don't sit around and

(19:47):
talk about our feelings all that much. Mj was here.
I'm here to win because remember, if he didn't win,
it wasn't just his internal sense that created a failure.
He did a failure, he'd be a failure to the
rest of society. He was built up as this legendary, mythical,
bigger than life figure and if he didn't if his

(20:09):
team didn't get it done, that was on him. Be
sure to catch the live edition of The Doug gott
Leap Show week days at three p m. Easter noon Pacific.
Casey Johnson joins US Bulls Insider NBC Sports Chicago. Casey,
I want to get too far more important stuff. But
what do you do you believe the story that Tim
Grover told in the Last Dance. I mean, we've known,

(20:31):
we've written about pizza for years, and you know the
night did happened. I was at that game, and you
taught we wrote flu like symptoms because that's what we
were told. But I want to say I was working
for the Chicago Tribute of the time. I want to
stay within a couple of days, we were already writing
that he ate bad pizza. As far as it was
poison or not. I have no idea. That's conspiracy theory
level stuff for me. I just know that, you know,

(20:52):
within a couple of days or maybe a couple of weeks,
we were writing that it was bad pizza and not
the not the flu. Casey Johnson joins us in the
Doug Show on Fox Sports Radio. You know, this is
interesting to me that you guys uh printed out I
was reading yesterday. I think I don't know what it
actually went to print the unfinished memoirs um of Jerry Kross,

(21:15):
the late general manager of the team, and he explained
from his perspective what really happened in terms of a
after the season was done, we had the trainers, the doctors,
all the front office. We all got together and we
realized we can't resign Luke longly. He's washed, Dennis Robbins
washed up. Scottie Pippot had two surgeries in two years

(21:35):
and then his back locked up in the playoffs, and
he wanted to get paid like this would be a
very very different look. Why why was that not mentioned?
You think in the documentary? UM, Well, I think Jerry
rein Storff kind of alluded to maybe not that in
that detail or that specifics. I think Jerry rein Storff

(21:56):
kind of you know, elucidated that same point in you know,
that final ultimate scene and then they cut to Michael
talking about wanting to run it back UM for a
seventh title and keeps for Chicago. I have an article
posted there UM today talking to Jerry Ryan Starf about
that final scene and he claims that he and Michael
had private conversations at that time that he wouldn't go

(22:17):
into detail on, but that in general and Michael understood
where the team was coming from. You know that this
is Doug. This is an interesting dynamic. That's for me
is you know, I was not the lead b writer
for the Chicago trip, being back then Terry Armor was.
We had several grade writers covering that, Sam Smith, Willis Isaacson.
I was just one of many writers when I was
working for the Chicago Tribune back then. But we covered

(22:39):
all this stuff back then in ninety eight. I just
feel like it's like getting relitigated now, and it's like,
this is all stuff that has been reported and covered
over time, and obviously it's just now being viewed through
this prism of this documentary during that is released the
Global pandemic. You can't you can't scrutinize or analyzes documentary
without using that lens either. I agree, it's it's really

(23:02):
really fascinating to me. Uh. Casey Johnson joining us from
NBC Sports Chicago, that the timing worked out perfectly for
Jordan's Obviously Jordan having some creative control um really worked
out well for Jordan's And the fact that Lebron you know,
to this point, hadn't played in the playoffs in the
Lakers uniform worked out to Jordan's. UM. Your general takeaway

(23:27):
from watching all ten episodes of the documentaries. What then,
It's great to see Jordan's speaking again. I mean, we
all know, uh that those of us who around him,
for those you know, I was only around for the
second threepeat. I was at the Tribune to the first
three peep and not covering the NBA then, and you know,
just we all know what drove him and what made
him tick. And as we all know, he's not given

(23:48):
any public interviews anymore. He's you know, gave that wonderful
times to Right Thompson for that HESDN the magazine profile
several years ago. But really since the Hall of Same
acceptance speech at O nine, we have not hurt my
publicly from Michael, so God bless him. I mean, if
if this is a Michael Jordan's documentary, or he's got
control or he gets the last word, that's cool because

(24:09):
he's the greatest basketball player of all time. And I
just loved him talk again and reminding us all of
what made him tick and what drove him to such heights.
It is kind of funny, you know, I I'm talking
to put plenty of players from that are obviously kind
of relationships with a lot of those guys, and you know,
some of are starting to clap back a little bit.
Adam horse Grant was on local Chicago Rady today clapping back.

(24:30):
It's the of Jordan's statement. So it's just, you know,
it's a dynasty and it's filled with people with great
pride and large amounts of testosterone, and uh, you know it,
there's a reason why dynasties don't last forever because it's
hard to keep everybody pulling in the same direction. And
I think you know that's been born out pretty uh,
pretty dramatically throughout this documentary. It's been written that the

(24:53):
Pippin didn't love how he was portrayed. I would say
that the only only negative portrayal was, uh was Scottie
Pippen saying he would do it again in terms of
sitting out when Tony Cook coach made the game winner
against the Knicks. Isn't it because the Red he was
made out to be a sympathetic figure because of his
contract for throughout all ten episodes, and then out to

(25:17):
be a complete warrior um in that he you know,
played through pain in the final episode. I feel like
that's on Scottie, do you well, I think there's balanced.
I mean, you know that the Migraine was brought up.
The one point eight seconds excuseable stains on his career
was brought up. Um, yeah, I mean I think the

(25:39):
episode ten commented, Yeah, you don't really. Here's the thing though,
like I didn't need to see episode ten to know
that Scottie Pippen was a great basketball player. You know
what I mean. It's like no, no, but you know, Casey,
you know, like, look, Scotty has had a reputation of
being soft. He just did that. That's why I felt
like her and several others said, like people thought he
was soft, He's not like they wouldn't say people think

(26:01):
he's off unless people thought he's soft. I do think
it was important to point out that he was out
there on guts and you know, it was kind of
Jordan's versus the world. I thought that part of the
portrayal was actually really important and it it It looked
even though he was hurt, it did look good upon
Scottie Pippen kind of historically and obviously about about Jordan's

(26:24):
I don't know I would I would only push that.
That's where I would push back there. Yeah, and that's fair,
you know, like I said, well, like I think there's
a balance. I mean, you had it Jordan's early in
the I can't remember what episode about one or two
saying there's no Michael Jordan without Scotti Tippen. That's the
ultimate compliment you can get. And you also have Jordan's
accurately reminding everybody how pissed he was that Scotty believe

(26:46):
that surgery told the even season because you don't, you
know what, Michael was as smart as anybody. He knew, Uh,
Dennis was starting to get a little wayward, and that
was pretty clearly spelled out of this documentary, and Dennis
was not was reliable in that, and so Jordan knew
what was gonna land on his plate without Scottie Pippen
until January, So you know there's balance there. Um. I

(27:10):
do think it ended on a strong note for Scotty.
And I also liked that Scotty, of all people, was
the one who you know, put the bow on the
Jerry Krauss package at the end, because you know, Scotty
was not always forthcoming with praise or compliments for Jerry
crausson for him to acknowledge his talents I thought was
pretty noteworthy. Casey Johnson joining us in the Doug Oatlup
Show on Fox Sports Radio. Obviously, Krauss looks like the

(27:34):
bad guy, Ryansdorff looked more like the bad guy. Uh
in the end, Um, who to you did you like
and dislike their portrayal in terms of the accuracy of it? Uh?
You know, I'm not really getting into like judging the film.
You know, it's it's it's it's it's the filmmaker's work,

(27:57):
and that's his work. I'm not gonna critique it, you know.
I mean I personally thought it was I will say
that going in my impressions, Wars is gonna be a
little bit more about the whole team and a little
bit more about maybe the ending and you really only
got to the ending and the last what to his
team in his an episode tent That was just my
impression once I started seeing it unfold and seeing what

(28:17):
it was about. I mean, if I'm a filmmaker and
I give Michael Jordan to sit down for three length
the interviews, I'm going where that takes me. So you know,
I'm not a filmmaker. I'm a I'm a sports writer.
I'm a journalist. So um, but you know, to have
Jordan's cooperation was fantastic. I mean, sure you can quip.
I mean, like the joke I've been using it was
Ron Harper on the Cavaliers of the Bulls. You know,

(28:39):
it's like but but you know, I mean, Michael Jordan's
talked at length. So you go where that takes you.
And Michael Jordan, of course is going to dominate it
because he's the greatest basketball player of all time. Um,
you know, as far as the blame of getting that
question a lot, and you know, again, it's so multilayered,
so multifasted, I feel like we're covering old ground. It's

(29:02):
to me, it's as simple as this. In the summer
of Krauss and Phil's agent had horrifically contentious contract negotiation.
Jerry Raynings the Horse flew out to Montana personally negotiated
with Phil, and Phil came back for one more season. Now,
you can call what the Bulls and Jerry Ryan start

(29:23):
did in eight as a publicity stunt disingenuous if you
want to be skeptical. But Jerry Ryan did offer Phil
the chance to come back in ninety eight, and I
get why I still wanted to walk away. He was done,
his relationship with Jerry Krauss was over. He wanted a break,
um so. But the bottom line is the invitation was there.

(29:45):
They introduced Tim Floyd as the director of basketball operations.
I was at the news conference. Was one of the
most surreal experiences of all time. They didn't even need
to produce them as head coach. So pr stunt or not,
the opportunity was there for Phil and Phil Joe about
to come. They'll take it. So that's the difference. In
ninety seven, Ryan Orkins did Stilled a return for one

(30:05):
season at so walked away. I'm not blaming Stilling. It
was BULTI layered as to why he's left. But that's
that's the difference to me between ninety seven and ninety Yesterday,
I said, the truth is Phil knew it was time.
Robin was shot. Longley whatever pipping they Pippen had a
couple of good years, he was never really the same,
even in Houston when he played more minutes. You know,

(30:27):
the idea that they would and even even Jordan was
human right, um Like, the the whole theme was how
much they struggled all year just to get to the
playoffs and then Jordans kind of pushed him over the threshold.
And look, at some point, at some point even the
best bill damn breaks right. So I'm just wondering, because

(30:49):
you covered it then you knew what was going on,
was it in fact time or should they have run
it back? I can so I think what you just
said spot on, and I need to stay beating around.
I just personally had that that season had the feeling
of finality to me. I mean, look, the Pacers series
was the toughest test of the entire second three p um.

(31:11):
You know, even if the Utah is here, you can
say it at than six, but without Michael Croix it
goes Game seven on the road and studies availability in question.
That's singing in the balance. I'm not saying Boes lose that.
I'm saying that they could. So I can just tell
you that that entire season and it wasn't this joyless
log I mean, they went over sixty games and they

(31:31):
want a chip each if there were plenty of moments
of levity and happiness and uh fun to be around.
But but just the entire season had the vibe um
that it was over. And you're right, Phil, Phil use
that very line. Many times it's it's time. It's time, um,
and you know you can. You can play revisions history
all you want. You know, as I said before, dynasty's

(31:54):
don't last forever. And they're hard for a reason because
everybody has to be really good at their jobs at
the same time for a long time. And sometimes you know,
those things all end and either end investing fashion or
neat fashion fashion. They typically end in bessy fashion. This
one ended in both MESSI off the court, meet on
the court because here's six and on the NBA Finals.
Great stuff. Casey Johnson joining us on the Doug Gottlip Show.

(32:17):
Check out his work. He's a bulls inside for NBC
Sports Chicago. They've always done a fabulous job of covering
it and now it is to you. That's his old news.
But many people they're like I, I had no idea
and it's new and you guys have done a great job.
Thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate you. Thank
you very pleasures. Ares. Casey Johnson joined us and Discover
Card guest hotline. Get your free Discovered scorecard today, even

(32:39):
if you're not Discovered customer. It includes your PCO credit score,
checking your scorecard won't hurt your credit or more. Discover
dot com slash credit credit scorecards. Limitations apply. The one
person I wish we could have heard from in the
Last Dance documentary, I'll tell let you tell you who
that is next. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports
talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows

(33:00):
at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I
Heart Radio app. Search f s R to listen live. Okay,
this is game time on the Doug Gottlieb Show. Damn
by what he got, Doug. The game today is rank alright, grank.

(33:21):
The three people you wish you could have heard from
in the Last Dance Um, okay. I would say this
is a tough one because I have four. I'm gonna
say that that Sonny Vekaro would be four. Okay. Legendarily
involved in grassroots basketball. He helped push Michael Jordan's Nike

(33:47):
But but he misses only because I'm surprised I didn't
talk to Peter Vessey. Peter Vessey was Wog before Wog
New York post work FRAMBC Sports wasn't in the film.
That's interesting just because he could have offered insight from
an insider's perspective. Jerry Krause too. We did to hear
some from Jerry Krauss, some but not enough. And number

(34:08):
one would be text Winner, Um one because text Winner
was hilarious too, because Jordan fought with him over the triangle.
But then you know, he became Jordan became a guy
who completely bought into the triangle. Text Winner, who had
been number one al right along the same lines of
the Last Dance documentary brought back those Utah Jazz uniforms
with the Wasatch mountains on them. Rank your three favorite

(34:33):
Utah Jazz uniforms throughout the history of the organization. Uh, well,
I know what number one is. I'll get to that
in a second. Number three of the finals mountain ones,
number two of the Darren Williams blue ones. Those were
kind of sharp. And number one was the classic purple
and yellow which stocked him alone war when they took

(34:55):
the Lakers to Game five. I believe in five games
she used to play in Salt Palace. Of those units
that that's those are that's supposed to be marriage war.
Um with the New Orleans Jazz, those the uniforms I
think of with the Jazz dou Grank the three current
NFL head coaches you'd want to play for? This kind
of on the heels of the James Harrison Mike Tomlin
situation and Harrison saying it was the gest thing anyone

(35:18):
has done with that envelope. The three coaches you'd want
to play for if you were an NFL player, Okay,
I would put um, let me just think here, Hardball,
John Hardball want three, Sean Payton too, Mike Tomlin one
all right, interesting, No Belichick. I'd love to play for Belichick.

(35:42):
I mean, I don't know. I just feel like, uh, um,
who did I say three? You had? John Harball? Yeah?
I mean, like, look, I love Hardball. I feel like
he champions his guys, pushes him, but also puts him
in a position to succeed. I don't know, I like
his I like John harm I like that he's the
other brother. I like a lot about him. Sean Payton,
I just think he's fantastic with guys. I just he

(36:02):
really gets it, really protects his team. Um, you know,
he's like an offensive Belichick. And then Tomlin, who I
don't think does as much, acts and os, but I
just feel like he'd be a great dude to play
for Rank Doug who you are most excited to see
play golf On Sunday another charity golf match, Tiger Woods
and Peyton Manning against PHILM. Michelson and Tom Brady. Ranked

(36:25):
those four players Bill four still four, uh, Brady three,
actually Brady four, philth three, Um Manning too, just because
he's I think the funniest of the group. And then
Tiger one. Tiger always number one. Plus Tiger is Tiger
Stanta sneaky, funny too, He's a he's a bit of

(36:46):
a trash talker. Rank your three favorite pizza toppings. Okay,
mm hmm, this is hard. Well, Pepperoni's one. It's like
nobody can pizza that right? Correct? Can I do combos? Like? Okay? Um?

(37:08):
I actually have grown to really like pine ham and
pineapple together, like really really like it. Um. And then
I like a white pizza with the basil. You like
the classic white pizza, white cheese. And then I would
say the Pepperoni obviously pepperus one. This is game time

(37:31):
on the Dug Gottlieb Show. You know, you pick sides
in things, even if you don't. I'm not like I
can't appreciate the other side. I've always been a Jordan guy,
but there's one thing about Lebron that I get, and
he's just better than Mike. I'll explain next in The
Dug Gottler Show. Be sure to catch the live edition

(37:53):
of The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three p m.
Easter noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the Heart
Radio Whap Doug Gotlip Show, Fox Sports Radio. I've heard
some of my cohorts colleagues say that the interest easy
Jordan's in the social media age. It would would um

(38:17):
because you know, so many things we do, so many
things we say our past and I mean, how Adele
lost basically a human beings worth of weight. Looks amazing
and somehow like part of part of social media, like
you know, against it. You know, she's an amazing singer.

(38:41):
She took her time off to be a mom. Then
she decided to get healthy. I don't know if she did.
I don't know she had this certain I don't care,
like she got in shape. Some miw someone out there
found it to be a negative and got some other people.
It could be five, ten people. I don't know. It
could be bots to make it seem like it would

(39:03):
there's some negative to it, Like I don't know, social
media is so curious. I don't really totally understand it,
you know, I mean, heck, even I live in Orange County. Now,
if you know anything about the politics of California, California
is generally a very very blue state. Gavin Newsom is

(39:25):
a very liberal governor. I think he's done, for the
most part, pretty good job. And uh, look, they've been
a little overly cautious of how they shut things down,
but generally right in line with most of the big states,
the big diverse populations in terms of when they're gonna
open stuff up. But you know, a couple of weeks ago,

(39:46):
they shut down Newport Beach because there was a photo
of you know, people rushing to the beach and sitting
too close to each other and you know, not abiding
by the stay at home motor So you know, you
have social media. I I'm besieged by these reopened California. Like,
if you want to reopen California because your business is suffering,

(40:08):
that's reasonable. If you want to reopen California because I
can't go to the beach, which you can, and you've
always been able to go to the beach out. In fact,
the beach was open, you know, almost the entire time
in Orange County, even when it probably shouldn't have been open.
And Orange County, by the way, the Orange Curtain is
very Republican county. So that's kind of what's at play here. Like, look,

(40:31):
if you want to go and you hop in the water,
You've always been able to go hop in the water.
You just can't sit right next to somebody with the
thought of spreading this virus. That's that's all, Like, we
we just lost any ability to be reasonable. So how
Jordan would have fared in social media, I'm not sure,
but I do know that part of what makes the

(40:53):
Jordans mythology work is that, um, he could control old things,
you know, even this documentary, like that was his production team.
He had some final editing, say as well, so he
could control things he was able to. He had like

(41:13):
a mad Rashad was a reporter, A mad Rashad was
a reporter, and ramand shots like stayed at his house
the night before a game, rode with him to the game,
was in the locker room with him, Like there's a
whole other team. There are twenty nine other players and
a matter shots in there with Gus the security guy,

(41:33):
and what's the guy with the with the woes the
act right the mantas, the corpse like with the Jerry
Crow perm thing that passed away that's like one of Jordan's.
And and there's the reporter. So like Jordans could control
the message. And I think in all honesty, he'd probably
be able to control the message today, as you know

(41:57):
many other stars are able to. But I don't know.
I don't know how much his personal life would have
been tossed in there, how much it would have been
discussed or whatever. I don't know. Make no mistake about it.
Michael Jordan's was the Mike was the Michael Jackson of
sports in that everywhere he went he could move. As

(42:23):
he said, this is not a life that that anybody
would want to lead. You know, where you're you're in
a hotel room by yourself, with friends that you had
to pay to keep you safe. Right, That's that That's
what those guys were. Um. But I want to give
credit to Lebron from this perspective, and this is where

(42:45):
Jordan didn't have to deal deal with it. And I
think only maybe Tigger Woods has had to deal with
it longer, and you look at the the pitfalls of
Tiger Woods super fame. Like, the biggest difference is not
just social media, it's that Lebron James was the next

(43:07):
NBA superstar when he was entering his junior year in
high school. Think about that for a second, that you're
you're sixteen years old, You're in Akron, Ohio, and you
have to some of the like one of the reasons
I do, on some level, you find it's sad that

(43:29):
Jordan's closest friends on that team weren't on that team.
They were his security detail, right, that his friends are Like,
I guess you gotta pay him and you take care
of him. You compensate. Like the reason everybody told me this,
you know the footage of Jordan's camp in Santa Barbara.
I got a chance to work that in as a

(43:50):
counselor play against Michael Jordan at night. But the reason
he had that camp was not because Michael Jordan wanted
to have the camp, is because they need so much
money that all of the guys on his entourage he
could take care of out of that money. You know,
they make four or five million dollars and he would
give it away. Then they had the Jordan Fantasy Camp
in Las Vegas after he retired, where he'd have all

(44:12):
these coaches, the best college coaches would be coaches of
these teams, and he would play against these kind of
you know, hedge fund managers that would pay thousands of
dollars just to play against Michael Jordan's That money wasn't
for him, it was for all of his guys. But
still you have to pay your friends to hang around
you because you don't know who your real friends are

(44:32):
because there's always an angle, right, everybody's got an angle.
Even a mad Rashot as closer friends as they were, Like, look,
he made a mad Rashot's career matter Shot was a
great football player, was a reporter um long before he
and Jordan became friends. But a mad Rashot became irreplaceable
a NBC's broadcast because he was the end of Jordan's

(44:53):
the only guy who would talk to put Lebron. James,
on the other hand, has had to carry this burden
of superstardom since he's sixteen years old. He's thirty four.
Now you're talking about eighteen nineteen years of being in
the spotlight and look, everything that that President Obama said

(45:17):
about Jordan is accurate. He was a point. Jordan was
a point of pride, point of pride for the country.
He changed the culture. He helped the city, not just
helping himself, and he became obviously a billionaire, probably two
times over in the process, but a lot of people

(45:39):
in his wake and a lot of things in his
wake became better. Right, Gonna save the image of USA basketball,
change the image of Nike, change the image of the Bulls.
When he came into the NBA, it wasn't his league
immediately was Bird and Magic. He did grew up a superstar,

(46:02):
as has been noted, played JV his sophomore year. Wasn't
McDonald's All American, but he wasn't the best player on
North Carolina's team early on. I don't care what Roy
Williams said or what James Worthy said like it was
Worthy and Perkins and then became Jordan by his junior year.
Even his superstardom when he was in the NBA, he

(46:25):
didn't take off right away nationally and internationally until several
years in Lebron's a completely different deal from the moment
he walked into the ballroom at the Hyatt in New
York City the night before he's going to be drafted,
and we heard him speak and he had thirty in

(46:47):
his first NBA game as a high school graduate against
the Sacramento Kings. Because of the advent of social media,
because now we do care about what you do off
the floor, Like, let's just be honest. I don't know
how how Michael would have handled it, but think of

(47:07):
how worn down he became because of the superstar him.
And look, I don't think that Lebron is a better player.
I think there are some holes in Lebrons game that
probably would have been shored up had he gone to
college for a couple of years, because you learn about
team you know. I think he built his body so

(47:28):
strong that he lost some of the fluidity. Look, I
just don't think he and he doesn't have that when
it all costs killer mentality. He is not a psychopath
the way that Jordan is. I mean, listen, listen even
to Lebron talking about MJ on the Uninterrupted podcast yesterday.

(47:51):
Person is the way I'll played the game where it
comes to like team first. I just feel like my
best assets worked perfectly with Mike. Mike is an assassin.
Mike is an assassin when it comes to that playing
the game of basketball, the way he scored the ball,
you know, my ability to pass, my ability to read
the game plays and plays and plays in advance. And

(48:13):
they're just taking the challenge. Like I love when the
teammate comes to me and challenge me and tell me, okay,
all right, come on now, R six. You know, when
I was in Miami, the way it used to be like, alright, six,
let's go. You know, t Lou used to challenge me
a lot when I was in Cleveland. He'd be like,
all right, Bron, what you're waiting on? You know what
I'm saying. And I just see that from Mike, And
you know, I just feel like our games was just
a perfect you know, a perfect you know correlation to

(48:34):
be able to uh just be successful. Yeah, you know,
that's not the way Jordan's wired at all. Like they're
just different dudes, right right, They're They're just different dudes.
Jordan had the internal drive to know when to hit
the switch. Lebron had to be told. Lebron wants to
play against the play with the best. Jordan wants to

(48:54):
beat the best, which is different. You know, Lebron has
had that white hot spotlight. Jordan was worn down by it.
Could you say it was brighter than maybe, But but
if you think of from sixteen years old to your
thirty four years old being a mega star, you know,

(49:19):
Look again, I don't think Michael Jordan's the better player.
I think that people try and use the seventeen years
stats in an effort to somehow minimize what Jordan was
able to do. Jordan's to me like looking basketball, I
understand that there's the right basketball play, and Jordan learned
to make the right basketball play. But generally in basketball,

(49:43):
the best player gets the ball, wants the ball, makes
the play at the end of the game. That housing
always been the case with Lebron Kyrie that made the
big shot against the Golden State Warriors. Right, the best
players also, historically, whether it is magic or bird into
into Jordan's never lost self confidence in their shot. That's

(50:05):
not the case with Lebron. There were times which he
questioned his own midrange pull up jump shots, just that
they aren't wired differently. But if you're gonna give credit
and do so rightfully, Lebron James in handling all of
the Superstar, accepting maybe doesn't like it, but even accepting
the backlash for political statements. I can't find fault with

(50:31):
Lebron for how he's lived his life and how he's
handled the start him. I just cannot, Like, look, do
I think that he's trying to paint a rosy picture
and say he invented barbershop talk with his shop, Like, yeah,
it's dumb, but that's what happens when you surround yourself
with sycophans like this is you know, Jordan does the
same thing, right, Like he's trying to claim things that

(50:53):
aren't really true. But okay, when you live in this
insular world of Superstar, you don't see what the rest
of us see. But it's different what Lebron. Only Tiger
has gone through it longer and look at the pitfalls
of Tiger and like, what's the worst thing that Lebron

(51:13):
has done? Right? What's the worst? I mean, if you
go put like the China thing maybe was bad, Like
all right, you got billions, you know, hundreds of millions,
if not a billion dollars at stake with your Nike contracts,
and he just tried to play it up the middle
and he's never played it up the middle before. He's
always leaned the left, and people crushed him for like

(51:35):
all right, what else he he choked against the Mavericks,
like all right, because is that terrible? It happens, It does,
in fact happen, and he came back from it and
was better because of it. I don't think Lebron is

(51:57):
as good a basketball player. Is the Alpha, the old
timid Alpha, even as he said the assassin of Jordan's.
I don't think anybody would argue that. And I think
everyone knows he's not wired like Jordan's and that's why
you can I find it hard to think you'll ever
think he has the goat, But man, has he been
impressive with how he's handled it. I can't imagine, all right,

(52:20):
coming up next, what to expect from the NFL in
two thousand twenty in dealing with the pandemic. I'll tell
you on The Doug Gotlip Show. Be sure to catch
the live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at
three pm Easter noon Pacific. So there's like a couple
of different perspectives on this, but I want to share
with you one that I have Doug Gotlip Show, Fox

(52:42):
Sports Radio. ANDREWS. Ciciliani works for the NFL network, says
Uh on Twitter. Quote NFL CMO, that's chief Medical Officer,
Dr Alan Sills said, quote we we fully well expect
that we will have positive cases that will the rise
the goal. The goal is to identify those cases and

(53:03):
prevent the spread. NFL offices are for the most part
open for business, and players are slowly but surely starting
to migrate back to those facilities to get in shape.
And we'll see when, if, and when we have some
O t s and some other offseason activities. A few
weeks ago, Von Miller came out and said he's had it. Okay.

(53:27):
We talked about this going back to Friday and Lincoln Riley,
the coach of Oklahoma, saying, hey, what's the rush to
get guys back? Every day we learn more about this virus,
which I understand. I think the NFL's approaches the smart one.
You're not rushing it, actually you're not. You just have
to understand that this virus is going to exist, somebody's

(53:51):
going to get it right, and they're going to get treated,
and the percentages tell you they're gonna be Okay there,
and look, I'm not telling you I lack the feelings
and emotions of a normal human being. I completely and
totally understand, completely and totally understand that there have been

(54:12):
people that have gotten sick, that have died, or even
those that have recovered, and their lungs may never be
the same. I understand. But one, players are not in
a bubble. When they're at home. The bubbles are gone.
They're just not. When we reopen America, you're going to
go and even now pick up your food or eventually

(54:36):
have a restaurant with it's twenty five or fit percent capacity,
the risks have increased of you catching this thing. We
we can't live in a risk free, sterile environment. The
truth is that if you do some research on even
the hand sanitizers, when you sanitize your life, a lot
of times to bacteria moreh metamorphosized itself into stronger and

(54:58):
more vicious stuff. He does. So, I believe what the
NFL is doing is smart. I believe this is a
prudent course of action for college especially for college football
teams and college basketball teams. Get them back to campus. One,
you get better medical care. To yes, somebody will eventually

(55:19):
get exposed to it. Somebody's going to test positive and
you try and isolate them, treat them and allow them
to recover. We're not gonna have vaccine, stan Stot. It's
not scientifically medically possible to have a vaccine between now
and the start of fall. And we are and I

(55:41):
mean n LB and n B a NFL. It's how
how are we most prudent in getting back to living
our lives? And that does not include not living our lives,
staying at home, staying in a bubble just I'm not
saying we should rush it because we're all emotional only
done with it. Same. We have to be reasonable about it,

(56:03):
and I think the NFL's approach is reasonable. Fox Sports
Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation.
Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot
com and within the I Heart Radio app. Search f
s R to listen live Doug Gottliebs show on Fox
Sports Radio. He is a good friend, a good man.
It was a great quarterback and now an outstanding broadcaster
for CBS Sports. He's two times Super Bowl champion. Phil

(56:25):
Simms he joins us on Fox Sports Radio Film. Most importantly,
how are you how's your health? Everything good is here? Douglas,
I call you Douglas. That's probably what your mother college
you and did something wrong. No, just my sister. My
sister is the only one who calls me Douglas. Sister,
and you you've always called me. But everything is good.
Our family, our immediate family, all my kids, grand schildren,

(56:48):
everybody's been healthy. And unfortunately, even the area I live in,
it's just been I've only heard of one or two
people that were unlucky or whatever you want to say,
to catch the virus, but they are now doing well.
So it's it's been good here in northern New Jersey's
let's Tom Brady apparently is at the Buccaneers facilities throwing
to his new wide receivers. What do you think of

(57:10):
his decision? Oh, well, it's look, I think I always
thought and said that he'll never wear another uniform but
the Patriots. But I think in the last couple of
years you start to see it unraveled. The fact that
he didn't go to O T A S was a
big deal, you know, just the fact that maybe they're
you know, so much being made that could be true too,

(57:30):
of the just a Patriot way also just not having
the weapons he wants and all that, and now there's
a sense of that he can maybe open up and
and do a different thing. You know, I think he's
We're gonna see a different tom Brady just because you know,
it's it's a different, different atmosphere is going to be
working in. So I do like the fact, as usual,

(57:50):
as I say to everybody, what a basketball players doing
the off season to get better? Doug what? What? What? What? Basket?
But what don't you're you're a basketball player? Duty obviously
said you shot the ball, right, you're always shooting in
the gym? Well, well, the thing about Tom Brady is
he's always working on his throwing, his footworking that constantly
during the off season. And more quarterbacks young and oh

(58:11):
should should see that and emulate it if possible, because
it's really kept him into being a sharp quarterback even
at the A is now, how hard is it to
go and when when you've only been and I don't
want to say one system, because they really have evolved.
You know, he wasn't you know early in his career.
He's more facilitator than in the middle. You know, during

(58:32):
that run, even they didn't win the Super Bowl, but
they went sixteen and oh uh, he that was the
best offensive league. He was a great deep ball thrower
to Randy Moss and that thing changed when they had
Welker and everything was underneath. Um, so it's not it
hasn't been the same system, but using the same verbage,
you're working with most of the same people. How difficult
is it at this point in his career to have
a complete one eight and change, Well, you don't want

(58:54):
in that system in New England just real quick went
from two backs and just a real generic offense when
they won their first Super Bowl. Then it went to
other things, the four wide receivers you talked about, the
slot receiver, all the double tight ends. So they always
recreated a different offense for him for after a couple
of years. So that was great, um, but it'll be

(59:15):
a challenge. It will be invigorating. He's gonna love it,
just you know, the challenge of learning the new I
didn't learn a new offense. I played fifteen years, fourteen
years in the exact same system, and then my fifteenth
year I got Dan Reeves completely different and it was
like it was awesome just to be learning something different.
The challenge, and you know the challenge of learning, playing

(59:38):
with different teammates, head coaches and all that. I think
it's just gonna be great for him mentally. Phil Simms
are guest in the Doug Outlives show on Fox Sports Radio. Um,
there's some other kind of curious quarterback stuff Jamis. Jamis
Winston's trying to remake himself, but he's essentially the third
string quarterback with the New Orleans Saints. What do you
think of his decision? Thought it was a good decision

(01:00:01):
on his part, going to a different place to learn
a new way to play quarterback and offense that you know,
throws a lot of short passes, but they're always looking
for the deep ball, which people don't really realize. They're
always so one short passes this, you know, things like that,
getting rid of its screens, but they're just trying to
set you up before they throw one across the field,
down the field or whatever. So, uh, it's gonna be

(01:00:24):
entirely different from what he's used to. More verbage, more plays,
and so many more thoughts and Um, being around Drew
Brees and Sean Payton, It's real, That's all I can
tell you. I've gone to many teams and know all
the coaches. When you go to New Orleans, it's a
different feeling when you just watch how they are working

(01:00:45):
towards perfection and how much knowledge that Sean Payton really
does have and he can adapt to anything. So Jamis Winson,
great job by him going there, and if he gets
a chance to play, they'll be like every other backup
quarterback in New Orleans, he'll do very well. I remember
I was at your place and you got a chance
to call Dak Prescott game his rookie year, and I said,

(01:01:07):
what do you think about Dak? And you said, well,
you know he's a quarterback. Now I know what you
mean by that, which means he walks in and he
just there's a different feel to the room. Right, there's
something you know you gotta okay. Um. So, so now
you've seen him evolve, you know that they're this kind
of contract impass where he's technically a franchise taggy. He

(01:01:29):
wants a long term deal, but to be paid among
the elites of the league. Um. There have been times
in which he hasn't had Ezeke Elliott. They didn't look
great until they had a Maori Cooper. They weren't moving
the ball last year against the good teams. Um, they
were feeble offensively. In comparison against the bad teams, they
were great, I mean great, number one offense in the NFL.

(01:01:50):
Now that you've seen him several years in the league,
is starting quarterback of the Cowboys. What's your assessment of
the value of Dak Prescott. Well, listen, there's no doubt
he's a franch ice quarterback, big, strong, mobile, throws the ball.
He's throwing the ball, in my eyes, a little better
every year he's been in the league, because when he
came in, I would say he was at best just
an average NFL throwing quarterback. So I think the whole

(01:02:14):
thing with him is you know just what I read,
and you know I don't. I'm not a big contract guy.
But it's about four years or five years. The Cowboys
won five, he wants four. I think they're probably pretty
close on the money. Um, So I don't know what
to say. I when you talk about all these offensive
things too, just brings my mind a new system. But
the Cowboys what they did last year, they did. They

(01:02:36):
can beat you with talent, but they very seldom beat
you with their minds and those teams they've had over
the years, a lot of talent on both sides of
the ball, but they don't come through because there's just
not enough diversion or whatever. You given teams something different
on both sides of the ball, not only the offense

(01:02:57):
but the defense too. And I think that will change
is down Mike McCarthy, Mike Nolan, the defensive coordinator. It'll
be a different team. I mentioned Aaron Rodgers. Um looked
they had a great season in terms of record. They
turned things around with the first year coach. Obviously they
got god of embarrassed by the San Francisco for the
Niners both times they played the Niners, but still a

(01:03:18):
good kind of turnaround year. So instead of drafting a weapon,
they draft his eventual potential replacement. Um, what are your
thoughts on Jordan's Love being the first round draft pick
of the Packers. Well, listen to say I'm a surprised,
as an understatement about it. I studied Jordan's Love very hard,
liked him a lot. You know, I see the upside,

(01:03:39):
you know the upside, it's there, and but it's not
there now. He's not even a even finished or polished
as a college quarterback. So but I understand. You know,
a lot of people I know and I trust their advice,
had some high praise for him. I liked him too,
But I liked him not now in the first round,
that's for sure. I saw him as a late round pick,

(01:04:00):
you know, just because of the upside. But here's the thing.
I'm sitting there, the Green Bay Packers, I'm just gonna
they're gonna take I'm different. I said, they're gonna take
a defensive tackle because there was a lot of good
ones in the draft, hug, and what do they need
they get beat with? Last year people ran the bar
on them and dominated them, dominated them physically. Just off

(01:04:23):
the top of my head when I started talking about
I can name five or six games. But they had
no chance because they could not stop the run. So
you need big men inside they can play the position
to do it. I thought they would draft a defensive tackle,
then go get a wide receiver just because there was
It was the greatest year for the wide receivers in

(01:04:44):
my lifetime I've ever seen in the draft. Yeah, um,
but the top wide receivers were all gone right. It
was deep and there was there was guys. I I
don't know who was left. I know there's guys like
Chase Claypool that went in the third round from Notre Dame.
I liked him a lot. He's the this year's DK Metcalf.
He just didn't get the ball thrown to him or

(01:05:04):
not in college, but it's still there would have been
somebody there. And instead of trading up in the first
round for somebody's not gonna help you now, then why
don't we wait to the second round. If we get
a run um stopper in the first round, then move
up in the second round and get one of the
top wide receivers. If you look at it that way,
that would have been easy and it wouldn't have cost
near as much and you could have got it done.

(01:05:26):
But hey, they had a different plan. Um. I don't
know was Matt laflour was he said, oh, we gotta
get us a quarterback of the future. I don't know
if it was him or just a general manager, but
just my opinion following the game closely, you've got a quarterback.
You can see how get little worked up over. You
got a quarterback still in his prime. Okay, he's got

(01:05:47):
let's go on the low side. Two great years still
left in him, probably about four and maybe five if
he wants it easy. But did I see a decline
in Aaron Rodgers physically last year? Yes, a tiny bit,
but still he's physically one of the most gifted quarterbacks
in the NFL. And you're thirteen and three. Let's try
to win now. You don't look down the road when

(01:06:11):
you're you're in that Super Bowl window. If you think
you're close, then get the pieces. They're gonna drive you
over the top and be able to overcome to San Francisco.
Some of these other really good teams were well see
in the NFC. Let me offer the opposite perspective here, Um, Look,
as long as you have Aaron Rodgers, you're not drafting
the top ten, top fifteen. And if you have, if

(01:06:31):
they have, if you have evaluated, Um Jordan's love has potentially,
you know, with some refinement in two or three years
a franchise quarterback. Isn't it a great opportunity to get
a guy who can learn under the best in the
game for two or three years and no one wide receiver,
a one defensive tackle at that point the draft is
going to make the type of make that type of difference.

(01:06:53):
I don't know about that. I'll disagree. A great defensive tackle,
which like I said, there were tons of them that
could stop the run, could disrupt two things, get him
off the field, quicker not let the other team dominate
the clock, keep Aaron Rodgers off the field, another wide
receiver the goal along with Davante Adams. Yes, I think
it would have made a huge difference in their team.
That could have kept building that way. And you're talking

(01:07:14):
about you know, you're seeing the down down the line,
and again, what was your main point about Jordan's love
Go and get him now because you're thinking three and
four years down the road. I mean, man, the NFL
is about now. You know, in three years the general
manager and before might both be from They both might
be fired by then. We don't know. Okay, so so so,

(01:07:36):
but by look, and Aaron Rodgers was a better prospect,
I'm not going to challenge on that. But then by
that look, they were good when they drafted Aaron Rodgers
and they had Brett Farve. And even when Brett Farv
walked away, that was an NFC championship game, uh, team
that he walked away from before he retired and then
ultimately ended up with the Jets. So if we used

(01:07:58):
history as our guy, and look, even though it's a
different general manager with Ron Wolf, it's still the same idea.
How do we get in this position? To begin with?
We we we drafted a guy that we evaluated as
a potential replacement for a thirty five year old quarterback
who did sign. Look, it's a little sign of age
this year, a little bit more next year, a little
bit more of the year after that. And look, what's

(01:08:19):
what's the best thing that could happen for Aaron Rodgers
As he plays great and they trade Jordan Love and
they get a first round draft pick in return. Well,
you know what I would say to that, If you're
looking for your franchise quarterback, you know, go get him
when you need him. And you don't always have to
go get the guy in the draft. You can trade
to get somebody. Keep it going. Whatever they're sitting out
there and whatever. So I don't agree that. Listen, it's

(01:08:41):
everybody makes the comparison to Bread Farv and Aaron Rodgers. Look,
it's a it's a new world now. This the NFL
is now, and we see it. It's every week and
we judge it half by half and everything, and so
I'm just coming from that standpoint knowing, you know, when
you're close, you've gotta all all not gamble, but you've

(01:09:02):
got to take those chances to go win when you
think you're close, and just not to not to help
him and really not to help their defensive front. Um.
I think we're two mistakes. And you know, Jordan Love,
I wish him well. I hope he plays great when
he gets the chance. But I'm not looking at my
football team three and four years down the road. I'm

(01:09:24):
looking for this year, next year, whatever after that. You know,
we'll see what happens, because that's the league. That's the
way I think the league is. Doug. It's two of
the answer to Miami's perpetual search for the next day Marino,
Oh my god. Well, you know they probably had the
guy down there, but you know, Ryan Tannehill injuries. This
nobody was happy and we saw what he turned out

(01:09:46):
to be a big It was a franchise looking quarterback
last year. But to uh, you know, it'll be interesting. Um,
it's he can be the guy to make everybody happy
because he can get rid of the football. He's extremely
accurate with it when he throws it. Does he have
an overpowering arm, No, it's just it's probably in the
middle of the road by NFL standards that you know

(01:10:06):
somewhere in there. I worry about his size a little bit.
I think at times in college he played he played small,
can get engulfed too easy. But it's really not up
to two Doug, And you know that it's about the
head coach, Brian Flores, in the front office. Can they
put the right pieces around him, And of course they'll
try to emulate as much as they saw Alabama do

(01:10:29):
with him. Of course you try to emulate a lot
of those things in the pros to show off his talents.
It was great to catch up with you. I'm so
happy that you're healthy. We can talk with your son
a lot too. Obviously, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, apple
trees make apples, apple trees. Listen. I'm a big fan
of my sons, believe it or not, I mean I am.

(01:10:50):
I think he speaks to truth and he knows what
he's talking about. So sometimes I learned from something from
him too. But Doug, great talking to you, and uh,
don't be afraid to call me away. I will never
be afraid to call you and I appreciate your text
all the time. Thanks so much, Phil phil Simms joining
us the Super Bowl Champion two times over, Superol Champion
quarterback course long time and Flo analyst with CBS Sports.

(01:11:11):
This is the Doug Gotlip Show on Fox Sports Radio.
The truth about a controversial story in sports I'll share
with you next. Be sure to catch the live edition
of The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three p m.
Easter noon Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I
Heart Radio ah app. We talked a lot about the
Flu game on Friday. We talked about it something yesterday
Flu game obviously Game five, NBA Finals, Jordan's Bulls on

(01:11:34):
the road and uh, you know, for the longest time, um,
I think America, or at least Basketball AmeriCup thought it
was the flu game because he thought he had the flu.
He looked like it was reported as flu like symptoms
during the final episode or the No Excuse Me the

(01:11:55):
episode nine of the Last Dance. Turns out it wasn't
the flu alleged late him. Grover, his trainer said it's
food poisoning. He were to pizza. He's the only one
of ate the pizza, and appointently the pizza caused him
to throw up and uh and looked like he was
at death Store when he dropped thirty eight points on
the Utah Jazz in the NBA Finals. Let's get to

(01:12:19):
what the fox now. So I brought this up on
Colin Show yesterday. Do you believe the story that Tim
Grover told the world. My answer is no. There's a
lot of holes to the story which just don't make sense.
This morning in the Herd, the alleged pizza man, Craig
Fight joined the show to share his story and the

(01:12:39):
alleged pizza gate. I was not on the phone call.
What was happening was the driver had gotten the phone call.
He was taking it. So when the call came at night,
the driver kind of waved at me and pointed down
because he knew I was a Bulls fan. He pointed
down at it, finished the call and he says, hey,
I think it's I think it's the Bulls, which over

(01:12:59):
to the Ariott he was I don't know who was,
we don't know what it was, a player or anything
along those lines, but that's what was happening. It was funny.
I I happened to make the joke guys like I
need to take care of this because you know, and
and joking man or mind you, I was saying, I
gotta make this pizza. I don't trust any of you guys.
You're all a Jazz fans. You all do something to
this pizza. So I would have had made the pizza.
I can't remember the individual I was with, but I

(01:13:20):
had him take me over because it was my first delivery.
So it's not abnormal if you will to have two
people go to a deliver at once just to watch
the you know, to learn the process. But let's be honest.
We we went hoping that obviously you're going over to
the Barriot. You hope you meet the bulls or beat
some of the bulls or whatever it was gonna happen.
They announced that he had flu like symptoms or whatever
and that he got sick. I actually got a phone call. Uh.

(01:13:40):
They were just they were giving me a hard time about,
you know, thanking me. Hey, way to go, way to
try and get Michael six or the Jazz can win.
Great job. But I was like, oh, no way, I
didn't do that. No way, I took care. In fact,
I even geeked out and watched the pizza being made
to make sure it was it didn't puff up or
make a bad pizza. You know, I wanted to wanted
to help the bulls. They're not lose it for him
or make them sick. So here's the question, what do

(01:14:04):
we think now? I think part of the allure to
it is whether he was hungover, it was food poisoning,
or it's just an old classic you know, one day
virus that kind of goes through you. You could see
that Jordan wasn't feeling well and somehow he pushed through, right.
But now I'm kind of intrigued. Is the whole story

(01:14:27):
made up? You know, the whole story made up? What
else was going on in that room when Jordan was
having pizza that didn't mix well with the pizza? Or
was it just a bad pizza? And while Craig Fight
can say nobody else got sick, doesn't matter all he
needs one bad pepperoni. On the other hand, like, would
pepperoni be bad going through the process of being cooked

(01:14:50):
right like you get if he gets cooked? I don't know.
I mean, I guess he could still be bad, But
he would smell, but I don't know. Like the the
whole thing strikes me as a little bit odd that
I haven't heard of anybody else getting violently ill from
a pizza. I'm not saying it can't, but one person
getting ill from pizza, the who knows. I've never believed

(01:15:11):
that somebody intentionally spiked a pizza. The likelihood of that
is so remote. This is not a spy movie. It's
not Tom Clancy writing some novel. You know, there's not
Double O seven. This is a guy in a hotel
room popping up sick. But I think we're no closer
to clarity on what actually happened today than we were

(01:15:31):
at the time. What do you think now? I'm right music,
I still think that he probably got some forum of
food poisoning from the pizza. Why did that? Why did
Tim Grover say five guys showed up? I don't know.
It is the that's probably the most oddest, weirdest part
about it. And like if the story is just simple,

(01:15:54):
like he ate a pizza, got sick from the pizza,
why isn't that Why isn't that the story? Yes, uh,
buyer And he said I had a strange feeling about
this pizza. I'm like, what, who has that? I don't
think it's garbage. I'm with, yeah, I don't think it
was the pizza. I don't think it was the pizza either.
I don't think it was a pizza either. Adam Capelan

(01:16:14):
enjoys the show coming next NFL Insider for Serious x M.
What does he think of the adjustment to the Rooney rule?
Will it change things? And well, the season looks like
right not? Next to The Doug Gotlip Show. Be sure
to catch the live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show
weekdays at three p m. Easter noon Pacific on Fox
Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio Whap What Up?

(01:16:37):
Dug Gottlieb Show, Fox Smarts Radio. I hope you're having
a great day. Doug Gottlieb Show, coming to you live
from Southern Sunday, Southern California. T j Oshmanzadod Jonas In
minutes get his take on the last dance, his thoughts
on how the NFL be different. If you know, we

(01:16:58):
haven't really had O T A S things pushed back,
it feels like the NFL season could be the same.
I don't know, let's get to Adam Kaplan. Um, he's
kind enough to spend some time with us. Adam Capvin
of course, NFL Insider Series XM, NFL Radio, Adam. These
teams are permitted to reopen their facility starting today. They're
not all opening their facilities. I don't know how you feel.

(01:17:22):
I like the fact that they are operating with the
assumption that somebody's gonna get sick and they're just gonna
have to treat them instead of uh, some people's plan,
which is the put it off as long as you
can so that you eliminate the possibility of sickness. What
what's your take on the NFL's operations or the ability

(01:17:42):
to operate relatively normally um starting today. Yes, the way
that the leak is doing it is this whatever state
allows their people to go back to work, well, then
the NFL team has a plan. Not all of them,
but it's some of the teams are going back to
work very limited between fifty people non football personnel. And

(01:18:04):
then that's phase one. They'll see how everyone does. Hopefully
nobody gets still and if not, they move on to
phase two, which could be more people and they're eventually
football people. Coaches are not allowed in yet. Coaches at
some point hopefully with the next four to six weeks
with players and if all that goes well, then we

(01:18:25):
have training camps hopefully at the end of July early August,
like we normally would. So it's kind of what you're
you were saying earlier, like the league is going forward.
Here you know the good good, here's what I do.
Like the NFL has thought about this. Remember when a
lot of people could plan about having the draft, they
were correct. You could absolutely hold a draft at home
with the GMS, were able to do it at home.

(01:18:46):
Coach were able to do it at home. They did that.
I've talked a lot of coaches and executives over the
last two weeks for the virtual programs that they're having
now for for offseason practices. Uh, it's a little different
way to do it. And some coaches said that, look,
they they've learned some stuff that they normally wouldn't have done.
They would not have this amount of classroom time so

(01:19:06):
of doing that. So there is some positivity with this.
This is not really ideal, but uh, they've gone through
it now now they could take some stuff out of it.
And again they're going through this phase one and we'll
see how that goes. Uh. Tom Brady already in Tampa,
already working out with his guys. What what what does
people in the league think of the likelihood of success
with the marriage of two very different styles Bruce arians right,

(01:19:30):
no no risk, get no biscuit and Tom Brady, who
has been so conservative in their approach over the past
really decade in New England. What's interesting about this situation
is some people would not Brady not for having a
great arm, but I would say this if you look
at the personnel he's had over the years. Obviously, to Brady,
Moss is an elite athlete going downfield. He has not

(01:19:51):
had a lot of great deep threats since, particularly since
Moss moved on. So they're going to throw the ball out.
This is what they believe. They have two elite receivers
in Chris Godwin, who had a breakout season and Mike Evans.
They're very deep a tight end. No team is deeper
the ten end position than the Bucks are. And that
it's still gonna be a passing offense. That's not going
to change. What's going to change is the person on

(01:20:15):
the day of around him. One of the things that
frustrated Brady Cord and people I spoke with last season.
There's a lack of help that he got around him
at at receiver but particularly tight end. He didn't have
a starting quality to end last season. Well, now he's
got a minimum of two and you could say actually
three with obviously O. J. Howard. But now he's got
this guy ground back for at least this season. This

(01:20:35):
is gonna be a fascinating situation when you when you
look at the marriage of of Brady and Arians because
of just the philosophy of of how Bruce calls a game,
but Bible left, which is the guy is going to
actually call it. But what's gonna be fascinating is to
kind of see what type of plays are going to
call with Brady, who turns forty three this summer. Yeah,
it's gonna be really really interesting. Um. Aaron Rodgers I

(01:20:56):
thought was really honest last week and he said, look,
you know, um, I'd like it to make their decision
and their timeline more difficult than being the front office. UM.
I really believe that. I think that that he his
approach was one of honesty in that he didn't love it,

(01:21:17):
he didn't try and act like he loved the pick,
but he also isn't going to treat Jordan's Love poorly.
It really makes sense to me now that we've all
kind of taken a breath and realized what the why
the Packers chose to stay true to their board. How
does it sit with you that Jordan's Love was the
first round pick of the of the Green Bay Packers

(01:21:37):
Number one. I was not surprised, I'll be I'm gonna
be just flat out honest with it. I was not
surprised because what I've learned, and this is my twenty
first year of cover the National Football League, you have
to be careful of how late you dress, how long
you wait to draft this success or toil your starting quarterback. Oh,
you know five when they did it when ironically, when
it was Rogers being drafted, which was really bother way
not their plan going into the draft, whereas Jordan's Love

(01:21:59):
was really their plan to to to get him within
the first two rounds. They made a decision not to
wait for him in the second round because they're picking
them back in the round. They drafted him late in
the first round. But what's gonna be fascining to see
here is look, they made it very data, made a
deep playoff run despite the issues that the the offensive
heptically at wide receiver. If they make another deep playoff run,

(01:22:22):
how in the world is Aaron Rodgers not their start one? Now,
the thought around the league is that you're gonna you're
gonna have the Packers are gonna have to take a
long look after Jordan Love's second year. That's kind of
the thinking around the league is that this is a
to your situation. If Love's ready, he's going to be
the guy. Obviously, they'll trade Aaron Rodgers, who would then
on Church thirty nine that season. So you've got to
be careful with the age. Very few players play at

(01:22:46):
this stage late in their thirties and starting that. That's
kind of the reason why the Packers did this. Yeah,
and it feels weird though they Aaron Rodgers. I know
it's it's it's in vogue to say you want to
play in your forties. He feels like a guy who,
though he's will, wants to accomplish winning another Super Bowl.
I think there's other things he wants to accomplish in life,
and I kind of feel like playing in your forties

(01:23:07):
goes counter to how he may really feel. Is that fair.
I don't I've never heard that from talking to people
who know him. I just think he feels like there's
a lot of football left in him and he's still
playing the very high level. Now, last season, the belief
run the league was that they just had really had
problems with the wide receiver positions. They had no one
who could stretch the field. Now what they've done is

(01:23:28):
now you're gonna see this a lot this season. Matt Lafleur,
their head coach, clearly wants to rain things in. They're
gonna go with a lot of two tight end sets,
two receivers they drafted. Don't forget a j Dillon that
that was a surprise running back from Boston College in
the second round, and they already have Aaron Jones who
had nineteen combined touchdowns last season. They're gonna be a
run based offense. Is going to be a very conservative offense.

(01:23:50):
But here's the problem. You saw the game against the
Diners in the playoffs when they got blown out. Their
run defense was horrendous. That that, to me, is where
the Packers have to get better on the defensive side
of the football. Is particularly up the middle. Yeah, that
that's Phil Sims joined us earlier and he's like, I
can't believe they didn't draft a defensive tackle. Everybody's talking
about the receiver. I can't believe they don't draft a
defensive tackle. But I guess that kind of their theme

(01:24:10):
was they stayed true to whatever their board said. Uh,
you know, even if it meant drafting in A. J.
Dillon instead of drafting a defensive tackle in the second round,
let alone in the first round when there were some
top quality guys. Bill but Adam Kaplan joining US serious
x m NFL insider stuck gotlip show here on Fox
Sports Radio. Obviously, Joe Burrow, you would think starts day one?

(01:24:33):
What what about TWA? How do they handle him in Miami?
If this one? The belief under league is that Toa
is more ready than justin Herbert because of the system
that to have played in at Alabama, more of a
pro pro system. So if you look at if you
compare him to Herbert, I think there's a realistic chance

(01:24:53):
that to A starts early in the season. But you
can't say week one until they have a training camp.
They have to see they just have to see the
learning process. How well could you pick up their offense
under chan Gailey, by the way, who is a veteran
coach who's worked with a lot of young quarterbacks over
the years, a lot of veterans. It's funny that he's
reunited with Ryan Fitzpatrick, we coach with the Bills. But

(01:25:16):
the fact the matter is they're in good hands here
with Gailey, who basically came out of retirement to work
for Brian Flores. I like this. I like this chance
a good developer of quarterbacks work with trackmen many many
years ago in Dallas. I look forward to seeing how
this works. But to answer your question, too, is way
more ready than Herbert, and I expect him to start

(01:25:36):
early on during the regular season. Um. The Herbert thing
is is fascinating obviously because you know he was kind
of third in line to Rod Taylor. Do you think
he starts the whole year? He will start Week one, Barnie,
major surprise. And here's the thing. One thing you're gonna
you're gonna watch here is what type of offense they
run under Taylor. And obviously Herbert's very athletic. They're gonna

(01:25:59):
this is gonna be very conservative offense in terms of
how their belief this is gonna be a run first offense.
They're gonna get Tyrod Taylor running the football. They're going
to run a little bit of a version of Baltimore system.
And you know what, this will actually help Herbert get
accomlated because they're not gonna ask Herbert. Herbert will definitely
start the season, but it's highly unlikely it'll be Week one.

(01:26:20):
I think some are around mid season. The one concerned
that personal people around the league have is their offensive
line with the Chargers, that that one has got to
be rebuilt a little bit. They did make the trade
with the Panthers to bring guard Trade Turner Brian Bulagas
are left tackle who's in the twilight of his career.
You get concerned a little bit. But this is when
folks watch the Charges this season. This is gonna be

(01:26:42):
a very much run based offense. Adam Caplan joining a
serious sex m NFL inside Doug Gottlick Show here on
Fox Sports Radio. Um Cam Newton, he just sit and
wait and hope the hope the right guy gets hurt.
You know, here's the way the league sees the situation
at Can signed before the before the draft. I think

(01:27:03):
he would have had a chance a fee for a
starting job right now because Herbert went to the Chargers
because I thought there was a very strong belief if
the Charges did not draft a quarterback in the first round,
that that would have been instant. The team that he
might have signed with forget it now because Tyrod Taylor
starting and at least they're going with the belief that

(01:27:24):
Tyrod will ster early and then Herbert comes in later on.
There's really not a scenario where he goes and he
could compete for a starting job right now. And yeah,
there are some jobs where he could come and compete
for the number two job, but I like your scenario.
He might be better off waiting if he wants to
have a chance, it could be for a starting job,
because there simply are not any right now other than

(01:27:45):
New England, and they don't seem based on what I've heard,
they don't see him inclined to get involved with sign
and camp. What What do people run the link think
of what New England's trying to do? Surprising, very surprising,
because if you really look at their situation, they did
not they did not draft a quarterback. They signed two
undrafted free agents. Brian the work. He's a kid, has
got a lot of ability. Some teams I talked to

(01:28:07):
how a draft able great from with him. He's from
Michigan State, has got a good arm, He's got some ability.
But you know Brian Hoyer who ban Brian and I
were texting as soon as he signed. He said, uh,
is there are times a charm? Yeah, not only's at
the charm. He doesn't have to compete against Tom Brady.
So I think he's got a realistic shot. On My
pick would be Poyter win that job. Jared's did him though,

(01:28:28):
was a guy that Josh McDaniel was really like last
year in the drafts of who was their fourth round pick.
To me, it's a it's a two horse race, and
what they'll do is they'll evaluate it. If it's not
going well once they open training camp. They could always
bringing another veter quarterback. Awesome stuff, Adam, great work as always.
Hope you and your family are safe and healthy and
thanks for joining us. Thank you all right, Adam Kaplan
joining us NFL Insider Series x M NFL Radio. The

(01:28:51):
NFL did a lot of The NFL had a lot
of great reasons one of those reasons you saw earlier today,
I'll tell you what that is next. Be sure to
catch the live edition of the Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays
at three pm Easter noon Pacific Doug gli Show, Fox
Sports Radio. Jim Tryer is good dude, good reporter, works
for the NFL Network. He reported Tuesday, that's today that

(01:29:14):
the NFL owners tabled the resolution that would give teams
and hands draft stock for hiring minority candidates. It's not
just head coaches, primary football executives like a general manager
or the director of football operations, and of course also
as a quarterback coach. Per source and formula decision. The
decision to table the vote is generally a move owners

(01:29:36):
employee when a proposal doesn't have enough supports, resolution could
be reworked before going back to a vote at a
later date. Now, what has apparently happened is the Rooney
rule has not been done away with. Instead, it's been
expanded to where instead of bringing in one minority candidate
for a head coaching job, yet to bring in two
and and look, my thing is always intent. What is

(01:30:00):
your intent? And sometimes intent is hard to evaluate, and
sometimes it's hard to sit in the studio and say, hey,
I know what that guy was thinking. Oh, this guy
was thinking. Right, that's a hard thing to do. But
I think we can all understand that with the the
lack of paucity, frankly of black head coaches, quarterback coaches,

(01:30:23):
general manager in the league, the NFL's sole intent was, Hey,
we gotta fix this thing. And though they didn't get
the support, they got the attention that they wanted, right,
that's what they wanted to say, like, look, this is
just that is not acceptable. It looks terrible, it looks terrible.

(01:30:47):
I'm fully reasonable and understanding that you want to have
the best possible candidate. There have been good There have
been good black head coaches. Bad black head coaches. Have
been good white coaches, bad white head coaches. They have
been good. Like I truly, honestly don't think don't believe

(01:31:09):
that people see race, especially in the general manager, they're
in the head coach and today's NFL, I don't think
it's seen. But but you have to increase the size
of the pool because one of the things that really
hurts African American cannets is when you go, like, I

(01:31:30):
really like somebody who's done it before, right, really like
somebody who's done it before, it's been a general manager.
For who's been a head coach before. And if we
have fifty years working against us where the numbers have
been low, like just the bath doesn't work. The second
you say you need a head coaching experience to be
a head coach in our for US, well, you know

(01:31:53):
you've got like a tend to one ratio of white
coaches a black coaches just based upon the numbers historically.
Same thing with general manager. But I also and I look,
the NFL is doing some good things. They have uh,
minority internship coaching positions. It's just the idea of let's
let's get more people in the building of color and

(01:32:18):
allow them to be part of the discussion, allowed them
to be part of the football because that's what happens.
That's what we saw with Sean McVeigh, Right, Sean McVeigh
does well, and then anybody who ever bumped shoulders with
Sean McVeigh last offseason got a job. That's what happened.
And I think you know there is a pushback on

(01:32:40):
why everybody attached to Andy Reid gets a job except
Eric the enemy. Now I can tell you from somebody
I know who hired a head coach. Eric the Enemy
does not have a great reputation at this point in
time as a potential head coach. He didn't get offered,
wasn't a finalist for his alma Moterate Colorado. And he's
been there before, not just as a player, but as

(01:33:01):
a coach during you know, was during some tough times.
But he was the offensive coordineer granted didn't call plays,
was the offensive cordiner of the Kansas City chief who
just won the Super Bowl. How can he not get
a gig when there's all these gigs open. This is
a reaction not just to that, but of other hirings
to where you're just like, you couldn't find one person

(01:33:22):
of color who would have made sense. Yeah, I mean, look,
the Cowboys are perfect example, right, the Cowboys when they
hired Jason Garrett had never been a head coach before.
If you're gonna replace Jason Garrett because he hasn't won
in the postseason, you're placed with somebody who's not only
coached before, but one in the post season. The numbers

(01:33:44):
of those people of color are almost non existent. That
Tony Dungee and who else Marvin Lewis has been the postseason,
never won a game in the postseason, right of the
guys out of a job on the market. So there
is the math has worked against black coaches, black coordinators

(01:34:05):
four years. I do think that is ultimately going to change,
just like it's changed at the quarterback position, where it's
like best man up, and now we have the We
have years and volumes of African American quarterbacks. Some have
made it, you know, the Cams, the Lamars, the Russell Wilson's,

(01:34:25):
the Pat Mahomes. Some have not. Vince Young was a
one hit wonder and then and then washed out of
the league. Obviously, you know about Jamacus Russell, been plenty that.
There have been plenty of white quarterbacks that have succeeded
that have washed out of the league. Like we've we've
gotten past that. That's we need to do it at
coach and I think what the NFL is doing. Would
everybody hated what they proposed because like, really, you're gonna

(01:34:49):
give them draft picks. On the other hand, it was
them sending a signal to all the front office in
the league like listen, we're not gonna do this time
we don't have the support this time. But if you
don't fix it, we're gonna figure it out because it
looks terrible. We are legit triumph. We hear you, We
hear you. Just trying to come up with something spitballing ideas.

(01:35:10):
This might not have been a good one, but we'll
figure it out. If if, if you don't figure out
a way to pay more attention to the ruining rule,
give it more respect, and what we gotta we gotta
make these numbers make more sense. Be sure to catch
the live edition of The Doug god Leap Show weekdays
at three p m. Easter noon Pacific. All right, my
man Hushpan's out to join us in the Doug Gotlip

(01:35:30):
Show on Fox Sports Radio. Uh t J. I'm supposed
to tuck NFL with you because you were a baller
in the NFL. But but what I love talking with
you is you've been? Now you have you been? Were
you a Jordan guy? You a Kobe guy? Like I
feel like you're a Kobe guy. I'm a Laker fan,
so obviously I'm a Kobe guy, but I wouldn't say

(01:35:51):
that I'm not a Jordan guy. Growing up, I was
a Laker fan, So I didn't really like the Bulls.
All my buddies growing up love the Bulls, and so
I appreciate greatness. So, um, did I like Michael Jordan
when he was playing? And not really because I was
a Laker fan and he was beating us, But do
I appreciate how great he was? And watching his last

(01:36:13):
dances kind of reinforced Like when I was younger, I
thought Michael Jordan never missed a shot. It seemed like
he made every shot that he took. But I'm not
a this guy that guy. I'm a Laker fan. If
you play for the Lakers, I'm brother with you. Um okay,
So what do you think of Jordan's and how he
how he handled himself with his teammates at the time,

(01:36:34):
how he settled some old scores in this this documentary.
What do you think of Michael Jordan today? I mean,
I don't think anything like the thing what Jordan is
the people. You know, people get into this comparison with
with Jordan and Lebron And I don't know if anybody
has said this or not, and you can correct me.

(01:36:54):
Number one, Jordan's has always had a chip on his
shoulder because he wasn't very highly thought of coming out
of high school. When you get cut as a sophomore.
Lebron is a sophomore in high school. He's a nub
More player of country, and so Lebron has always had
fans fearing everybody thinking he was gonna be the greatest

(01:37:15):
and beat this and that Jordan had to work and
earn it. So he's always had a chip on his
shoulder and he took it with took it with into
the league. And so I can't fall to him for
that because he's always had to prove himself. At least
he made himself believe. He's always had to prove himself.
And so Tim and Lebron, it was just different mentalities.
Lebron was living up to expectations and Michael Jordan was

(01:37:38):
trying to just meet expectations and exceed him. Doug gotlib
show here on Fox Sports Radio, t Josh Banzana joining
us um. I tried to did you just flush the
toilet on me? No, No, that's my son. I'm sitting
right here, Okay. I just want to make just gonna
make sure that you didn't love and when you live,

(01:37:59):
when you're living in a smaller apartment until your house
is now, man, everything is right next to each other.
Well listen, if the house wasn't so big that you had,
you know, you had to have five teams of workers rotating,
you know, taking taking churms with Sofi stadium, then uh
yeah yeah, so uh okay, So what about seek Look

(01:38:20):
for me, I see the trash talk, and I'm like,
that's how guys are in now. Maybe not everybody is
in that way, but the locker rooms I remember during
my career that was much more normal. And I do
think that guys today, like you, going to golf course
and guys talk trash talk ish to each other all
the time. Some have said, like, hey, he's a he's

(01:38:41):
just a bully, he said, he goes places you shouldn't go.
What you're taking the trash talk, man, that's man, that's
par for the course. You know, you know, no fun
and you're talking about the golf course. That's that's just
what it is. Man. When you're a practice and you're
doing anything competitive, you gonna talk rash because number one,

(01:39:02):
you hope it brings out the best of the person
that you're talking trash to, which in turn is gonna
make them play harder, but it's gonna bring the best
out on you too, because now they've turned it up
a notch. And so for me, I don't mind the
trash talking. That's not bullying man, Like Steve Kerr hit
Jordan's first, Like, how am I bullying you? When you

(01:39:23):
punched me first and I hit you back? That ain't
the day. Ain't bullying you? Now I'm going overboard because
I'm Michael Jordan. This trash talk. No, you can talk
the same amount of trash. It's just I can back
minds up better and you can back yourself. That's all
that is. Yeah, pretty baller. I wish you hadn't come
back and play with the Wizards because as a baller
move you and your career hitting the game winning shot

(01:39:44):
to win the NBA Championship. That's That's about his baller
move as it as it goes. Man, Michael Jordan's is
and will be like am I It's always it's very
very subjective of who's the greatest of all time and
it's whoever you think it Maybe that's who it is.

(01:40:04):
My generation will probably say Jordan's. The younger generation will
probably say Lebron Guys that are playing in NBA now
might say Koke, And so it's so subjective and that's
what makes sports so beautiful. Everybody will always have a
different opinion on who they believe it is the goat.
T Jospin's on a Pro Bowl wide receiver. Joinius dug

(01:40:26):
Gotli show Fox Sports Trader. You're hopping onto I g
and settling debates between Vante Parker and Michael Thomas. Man, Dude, dude,
The crazy thing is, I just made a comment and
I'm gonna type as long as guys have very respectful
I'll go back and forth with them. As soon as
they start talking trash and it's over the computer. I
don't like that because I start to get angry and

(01:40:48):
I just stopped. Um. But yeah, it was I was
just voicing an opinion. People. You know what, Michael Thomas,
so all this runs slant row so he gets every
ball throne to him. Just about what you just said.
If all he does is run slant routes and everybody's
thrown to him and you still can't stop him, that's
he's really good at what he's doing. Now, Gilmore, when

(01:41:09):
you do comparisons, Doug, it's always like you're putting the
guy down that you don't choose Gil more Than animal.
He's a beast. But when you play in Bill Belichick's
defense and you're you're going to get help at times,
it's just a different it's a different dynamic. And yeah,
Mike Thomas has Drew Brees throwing to him, but Mike
Thomas has done things that we've never seen a receiver

(01:41:33):
du in a short time he's been in the league.
And so that's why my opinion is what gilmore Than
come into the league doing what Mike Thomas is doing
right now? You Mike Thomas came into the league and
set it off right away. What do you think of
what the Packers did draft in Jordan Love We haven't
talked since, man, that was that was interesting. I would
have liked to see them on draft the receiver um

(01:41:55):
to play across from Davante Adams. That was That's an
interesting move. But just Sally showing you now, I believe
Aaron Rodgers will play two to three more years maximum
in Green Bay. Kind of just what happened more Bret
Barbar Aaron Rodgers, if it's gonna happen at Aaron Rodgers
now and so that he won't play more than three
years in Green Bay. They'll get Jordan's Love ready to go,

(01:42:16):
and Aaron Rodgers will finish through somewhere else. You know,
it's interesting though, it's something you said and t Joshman's
are our guest in the Doug Gottlieb Show. He hopped
into this debate um that NFL on Fox's Instagram account had,
which is what would what's like, what's harder to do
stop Mike Thomas from catching a ball or catch a
ball when Stefan Gilmore's covering you? And as you said, like, look,

(01:42:37):
if you choose one side, it's somehow seen as putting
down the other, which is not. Gilmore's a beast, Thomas
is a beast. You gotta pick one. It's not really
defaming the other to pick one. Um, on the other hand,
aren't you doing that to the Packers wide receivers if
you draft a wide receiver like right like you got

(01:42:57):
you have Lazard, you have a couple other young wide receivers,
uh Valda Scantling, Um, you have some young guys that
you want to develop. Aren't you putting couldn't the Packers
be saying like, look, we actually believe in our young guys.
We don't have to go out and reach for a
need when there wasn't a top wide receiver available. You
can say that, but the quarterback is Aaron Rodgers. If

(01:43:21):
you look at it, he doesn't feel comfortable throwing the
ball to anyone else. So do you think he's gonna
feel comfortable throwing to a rookie wide receiver in those situations?
If if he can create separation and get open when
if you just look at it, he's gonna throw the
ball to Devant Adams it's tight end, shake it down
to the back, or he's gonna throw it. He doesn't
feel comfortable doing it, and so the coaches can think, oh,

(01:43:44):
we got guys we can work well, we got guys
that can get it done. If the guy has throwing
the ball to him doesn't think that's the case, does
it really matter now that can change. It hurts that
there's no O T A S, maybe no training account
whatever it may be, but the off season could have
probably changed that perspective. But if Aaron Rodgers doesn't think

(01:44:07):
that that's the case, it doesn't matter what the coach
because he's the one pulling the trigger every place. That's
what I think I haven't asked you about about Christian
McCaffrey's contract. Um. I mean, look, he's a bad boy, right.
I mean, he can line up out wide, he can
catch it out in the backfield. He's shown the ability
to stay healthy when running between the tackles. But but

(01:44:30):
we've also seen all of these other running backs when
they get that second contract kind of fall apart. What
do you think of McCaffrey, uh, and the juxtaposition of
him versus the other big, other big contract running backs
in the NFL number one, they they had to do it.
When you lose uh, your defensive captain, captain and Luke Kickley,
you lose your offensive captain and Cam Newton, you had

(01:44:53):
to make somebody the face of the franchise in that
contract with saying Christian McCaffrey is going to be the
face of the France. I tried because we just lost
kick we just lost Qickly, and we just lost Cam Newton.
Now that that that's what I think would happened with that.
On the other hand, I don't believe he's gonna break down.
He's still very young. Yes, he had a lot of touches.

(01:45:14):
The game is very different, practices, very different Guys aren't
getting to run into the dirt and being worn out
during the week of practice. You can barely hit guys.
And so he'll play three, four or five more years
at a very very high level. And I'm not of
the I don't I don't agree with oh. The running
back position is de val guys like Christian McCaffrey, say

(01:45:40):
Kwon Barkley, Levian Bell, If in the right situation, Ezekiel Elliott.
If those guys are put in advantageous situations, they're gonna perform,
simple as that. J. T J. Great stuff, man, Good
luck on the construction of of the t J Dome.
We appreciate you join us on the Dug Glared Show. Hi,

(01:46:00):
I appreciated man. Keep up the great work, brother. All right,
thanks t J. Who's gonna come and teach my son
to be a wide receiver sometime very soon. One former
Bulls teammate has some harsh words for MJ. We'll share
them with you next. Fox Sports Radio has the best
sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our
shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the

(01:46:21):
I Heart Radio app search f S r to listen live.
Let's get to the press, the press. Let's go, gentle manager.
The Chargers will join us tomorrow on the show. Tomorrow
on the show, Dan Buyer, what do you have? My friend?
Fire there? John Ramos back in the game. He's on

(01:46:46):
a five second delay. Let's hear more from former Bulls
forward Horace Grant, who was on ESPN one thousand in
Chicago today waving on a few topics. Doug. Here is
Horace on his thoughts on this being a docu memory
when that so called Dr Mary is about one person, basically,
and he has the last word on what's going to

(01:47:07):
be put out there. It's not a doctor menory. It's
chief narrative of what happened in the last quote uncool dance. Okay,
all right, I only only anybody challenging him on that,
all right, No, no, But I don't think that other
Bulls players are coming out and saying this, so no.
I mean, I look, I think it's accurate. I think

(01:47:29):
there's a it's somewhere in between pure entertainment and documentary.
I don't think that. I mean, like, look, they went
to most of the places that you gotta go. Did
they get full perspective on it. Probably not, um, you know,
it wasn't totally about him. They didn't do backstories on

(01:47:50):
all the important players, so you know, obviously he's better
because Jordan called him a snitch, that's really aways mad
about well. Horace weighed in on Scottie Pippen's portrayal in
the documentary. I have never seen quote unquote the number
two guys has decorated that Scottie Pippen portrayed so badly

(01:48:11):
in terms of the migraine, in terms of the one
point six or seventh second selfish, I have never seen
this in all of my life. Did he have a
migraine that caused him to barely play against the Pistons
in Game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals? I think
he did. Did he take himself out of the game
when the play wasn't run for him with one point

(01:48:32):
seconds to go? Yes? Did he say on the documentary
twenty six years later that though he wished he didn't happen,
if he had to, he would do it again. Yes. Okay,
so I'm not really sure. And in terms of like documentary,
they just documented what happened and then they asked him
what happened, and he said he owned it and said

(01:48:54):
he do it again. I don't know what people want.
Horace's argument was that that they had dealt with it
as a team um at that time, which which it
said at the time they talked about that, and that
Jordan wasn't a part of that team, so Jordan didn't
comment on it. I mean, obviously knew it happened. But
that's all part of the story, right, That's part of

(01:49:18):
the story. And you can say what you want about
what Jordan's shouldn't have said. I shouldn't have said that
Scotty was selfish for not having surgery till right before
the season started. But he was selfish, and look, fault
Jordan all you want, but that's how he felt. Like
that's again a true documentary, present the facts. How did
you feel the time with thought he was selfish? My

(01:49:39):
issue with the documentary was their trivia questions only gave
you a half a second to answer that they were
way too damn what's that about? Who's buried in grants?
To m grant Um. Speaking of grants, here's one more
on the practices that Michael Jordan's had because be a

(01:50:00):
leader to go at those guys like that. I mean,
I understand in terms of practicing, you know, you get
you know, you have a pushing shove here and there,
but al right, punching and things of that nature and
calling them the bees and ages. You know that wasn't
called for. I think Horrce Grant is doing more damage

(01:50:23):
to himself, Like what what sport did he play? What
sport did he play? I you know that's why he
that's why he didn't get the next contract, no doubt
in my mind, they probably should ask you or not?
Did you have Did they ask you? If you want

(01:50:44):
to keep horrors Grant? Uh, I can't believe there's punching,
Like what practice? I've again, I've I've been. I was
on basketball teams. Uh actually for my fresh year to
high school probably right so one today, four, then four
in college and then I was on a couple of

(01:51:06):
us p L T like I was. I've never been
on a team and there wasn't a legit fight in practice.
Little trivia for your gut for you guys had like
five seconds. What was the final what was the final
NBA team that Horace Grant played for Lakers? It was
the Lakers, So good job, guys, try Lakers. UH. The NFL,

(01:51:29):
in addition to what you talked about a little while
ago over still Jackson bringing in one of his guys
right twice looking at the stats. He was also on
the two thousand, two thousand one team the NFL passed.
UH didn't pass that UH improved Draft pick resolution for
minority had coaches and gms, but they did pass a
resolution that won't allow teams to block assistance from interviewing

(01:51:52):
for another team's coordinator position. So you've got that. I
don't even realize that teams were doing that that well,
if you're under con track, Yeah, it's a too bad.
Belmont Steak is gonna take place on Saturday, June twent
thug first time in history that the race will be
first in the Triple Crown order, originally scheduled for June six.

(01:52:13):
The race will also be shortened from a mile and
a half to a mile and an eight. That's a
that's an I don't think people understand how big a
change it is. You know, they will say, like having
the Masters in the fall is gonna be different, different
course to have the Belmont Steaks, which is the last one,
but also the longest one and then completely completely changes
the makeup of the three races, they said, And I

(01:52:35):
did do look at some more research, and it found
out that I was correct that because it's the first
race that they didn't want to have them run, have
the three year olds run a mile and a half.
You have the Derby coming up at some Tember Preakness. Uh.
In October, u c l A officially anounced the hiring
of new athletic director Martin Jarman. Four year old receives
a six year contract averaging one point four million dollars annually,
taking over for the retiring Dan Carrera. Wow, let's hack

(01:52:58):
of a job. Before Hooper was at Michigan State, Ohio State,
before being the a d at at Boston College. Interesting
higher for the Bruins backing out there and pressed that
was the press. So so look, the Runey rule has
been adjusted. I can tell you that interviewing to African
American head coaches coaching prospects is a good thing. There

(01:53:20):
is no downside to it. Does that mean you have
to hire black head coaches, black gentle managers. No, But
what the league is trying to do is say, hey,
we got to get a bigger pool of people to interview,
and the more you get to know and the more
they go through the process, the better that they will do.
And the more likely is like the stronger likelihood is
that the numbers will improve. This is a good thing

(01:53:44):
for the NFL. They put the league on notice. These
numbers are unacceptable, right, these numbers are And when the
ratings are down because the world wants offense, you change
the rules. And when you start to worry about how
you're perceived in terms of your ratio of minority coaches
to white coaches, you change the rules. And that's what

(01:54:06):
they've done. It's stuck out them show

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The NFL's Rooney Rule & defending Michael Jordan's leadership