July 23, 2024 • 48 mins
John dives into the news that Jordan Love is at Packers training camp, but isn't practicing until he gets a new contract. Is Love making the right decision even though he's really only had one good season. Later, John reacts to Aaron Rodgers joining the "Pardon My Take" podcast and opened up about about skipping OTA's and how the media made a bigger deal about it than what it really was, and finally, Joe Burrow is cleared to play and what a healthy Burrow for the entire season would mean to the Bengals.
Later, John answers your questions in this episode's mailbag segment.
6:57 - Jordan Love isn't practicing
19:10 - Aaron Rodgers joins PMT
21:05 - John Harbaugh on Lamar Jackson
25:22 - Burrow is cleared to play
34:05 - Teams training in LA
37:33 - Mailbag
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
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Speaker 2 (02:13):
What is going on? Everybody? It is Monday, Monday afternoon,
and UH record a little podcast because I'm John Middlecoff.
This is three and out podcast. We have I woke
up to some news on Jordan Love Saw Rogers had
some comments with the part of my take. Guys, John
(02:33):
Harbaugh talking craziness, Burrow Cleared, Keenan Allen some thoughts the
Raiders and Los Angeles training camp. So we will, uh well,
hit on a lot of different stuff because football season.
I wouldn't say it's officially here, but by the end
of the week all the veterans will be there, and
by the end of next week everyone will be in
uh in pads, probably even before that. By the middle
(02:55):
of next week, the pads will come on. So you know,
I'm really excited. How could you not be because it's
football season, well not quite football season, but you're starting
to get that, you know, that feel it's right here.
We can summer breaks over. Not for me officially, because
I'm still in Lake Tahoe. I got to go to
this vander Pump restaurant tonight that she's really wanted to
(03:16):
go to in the Harvey's Casino on the other side
of the lake. So we'll see how that food is
from Lisa. Lisa vander Pump, who I guess is into restaurants,
I'd be lying if I know much about her. But
other than that, we'll do a little mail bag here
as well at John Middlecoff. At John Middlecoff is the Instagram.
Fire into those dms and get your question answer here
(03:39):
on the show, We're rocking and rolling Baby, So podcast
yesterday if you missed it on the Open and Xander
winning and Scottie and just everything going on, and we'll
have another podcast tomorrow, I'm sure. So you know where
to find us YouTube. If you haven't, go subscribe obviously
this feed three and out. Make sure you subscribe to
the podcast if you listen on Collins feed. And like
(04:01):
I said, Instagram is how you get in on the
mailbag at John Middlecoff. My name two f's let's rock
and roll. But first listen if you're excited for some
football and you want to go to a football game,
college or pro. God, I really want to go to
an SEC game this fall is just hard with my
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You don't like anyone on or homepage on Instagram. You
get all sorts of crap. And today I saw this
(05:05):
clip of Cuban with Howard Stern. It looked like when
Cuban was a lot younger, so maybe this was ten
fifteen years ago, and Cuban told the story about how
when I think he was acquired his company by Yahoo
and they gave him the stock options, and this was
right before the dot com crash of like ninety nine
(05:27):
two thousand and what he essentially did is he put
a force sell on the stock if it hit a
certain number not much higher from what he had, and
he hedged his bet that if it went lower, the
puts in the calls essentially that he couldn't lose, then
he might make a little less, but under no circumstances
was he going to get bent over and left holding nothing.
(05:48):
And a lot of people did. And Mark Cuban obviously
made over two billion dollars, and he said, we had
countless people. I told everyone that was involved with our
company to do it. Some people listened. We had just
random employees that made twenty five thirty million dollars because
of it, and we had people that made basically nothing.
And when you have an astronomical amount of money on
(06:09):
the line, I think you have to be very careful.
And when the story broke this morning, you know you
didn't have that much information. And as time went on
and you read Gudikin's quotes, it's pretty clear. And they've
talked about it since OTAs they are working on a
contract right now, and it feels like it's coming down
the home stretch. Part of what Gudakin said today with
(06:32):
Jordan Love, we think he won't miss much time now.
Obviously he's not missing any time in the sense of
he's at the building, he's at the facility, he's there
during meetings. But I think it's fair. If I was
going to take an educated guess, I would imagine this
contract's closer to Trevor Lawrence than it is Kirk Cousins.
(06:53):
So you're talking anywhere between one hundred and fifty two
hundred million dollars guaranteed. And I'm sorry, and the quarterback
actually saw Patrick Mahomes showed up. It's like pitchers and catchers,
they have to get there when the rookies get there.
It's just not worth someone falling into your leg youse,
planning weird and tearing an ACL. There is just too
much money on the line. I always support listen. I'm
(07:15):
a supporter of hold ins more than holdouts, because this
is not these other sports, especially baseball, where you know
this team can't pay you. In football, every team has
the money. And when you're a high end player. And
we'll get into the the question marks with Jordan Love,
but clearly he showed enough that, like if he can
maintain it, he's a high end player, especially at his position,
(07:37):
teams are gonna want you hold in, like, do it
in good faith negotiation. Negotiating through the media, I'm sorry,
is just kind of stupid in twenty twenty four. It
doesn't work, nothing like scrubbing your Instagram account. I'm sorry. No,
general manager or head coach gives a shit about your
Instagram account. So I give Jordan Love credit. Now, you
could argue he's only a one year starter. He's really
(07:59):
only had half a really good season. Holding out would
be a little extreme, but I definitely completely understand. You
have to take all the risk out of it. You
can't tear an ACL at some walkthrough because some overachiever
undrafted free agent is trying to be a hero and
get noticed by the defensive line coach and takes your
(08:20):
knee out and I'm sorry. Like, there's a cutthroat world.
That's the way the private sector in America works, and
they would yank that bad boy quickly off the table.
So this is the right to me move, by his agent,
by him, and it's also a good way to do it,
showing this isn't contentious. We're just being smart about our
money because there's just too much on the line. I
(08:40):
say it all the time, like when I won that
bet on Bryson to win eighteen thousand dollars. It didn't
give me that big of a high, partly because I
only had one hundred and fifty dollars on the line.
But if I had had ten thousand dollars to win
eighteen thousand, I would have sweated it a lot more.
And the level in which the number we're talking about
(09:01):
with these quarterback contracts, and like I said, my guess
would be, maybe it's a little under Trevor Lawrence. Even
though here's what I know. If you just look at
these players like stocks, if I had to buy one,
I would buy Jordan Love over Trevor Lawrence. And honestly,
I wouldn't hesitate. I wouldn't even have to think. And
(09:21):
if I was a GM, I wouldn't even have to
hold a meeting. I would one hundred percent take Jordan
Love over Tua. And we're talking about guys. One guy
just signed a big contract. The other guy's talking contract negotiations.
Now there's no debating there is risk involved. Both those
guys have been playing a lot more. We have a
lot longer resume, And part of being a good player
at the highest level in the NFL is doing it
(09:43):
over and over and over and over again. And it's hard.
Like we've all watched the NFL long enough now to know,
like there's a reason the great players really the only
thing that slows them down is injury. But how difficult
it is to maintain a pre all pro level of play. Listen,
we can nitpick Aaron Rodgers, but the motherfucker was elite
(10:05):
for fifteen straight years, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Like, the
only thing that slows those guys down are injuries. We've
seen a lot of players have good years then come
back to earth, Matt Ryan, cam Newton, Philip Rivers, somewhat
up and down. Eli Manning, Right, most guys are not elite.
And listen, this guy you could not watch the Packers
(10:26):
last year and I go, you know, it kind of
looks like Aaron Rodgers. I mean, that's kind of the
throw Aaron Rodgers used to make. It's crazy to say that. Listen,
I was wrong. I shorted the situation. I just played
the odds. I'm like, wait, you're telling me you're gonna
go from FARV to Rogers. They literally went from FARV
(10:48):
to a guy who's better than FARV. Like, now you're
gonna get another even if he's not better than Rogers
or FARV, another high end guy. Early on the season,
I felt pretty good about my stance by the end,
and I've thrown it out and like, I kind of
like this player I'm in and I heard Collins saying this, Listen.
Part of investing in this situation is you've been around
this guy for four straight years. You know how he
(11:11):
interacts with his teammates, you know how he studies, you
know how he prepares. You have no question marks and
that while short body of work, it couldn't have been
much more impressive down the stretch. I mean, we saw
him in a game against Dak Prescott. Dak Prescott just
signed a four year, one hundred and sixty million dollar
contract five years ago, and now he thinks he's gonna
get over two hundred million dollars. Who would you take again.
(11:32):
It's not like there's no risk involved. I got news
for you. There's risk in everything. Every business, no matter
what you do, has risk involved, even the most quote
unquote you know recession proof industries everything that there are
tailwinds here. But you could not tell me sitting here
for the next five years if you had to bet
on one, Dak's the safer bet. If you want to
(11:53):
stay in the slow lane, I'll go on the fast lane.
I'll probably pass you. And that's what I think the
packers are looking at this and That's probably why he's
just can't risk someone falling into his leg over the
next Again, based on the quotes I saw, it feels
like this deal's done within the next at latest seven days,
potentially in the next couple days. It's gonna be a
(12:14):
lot of money. But they have to feel pretty good
about their stance. Here's the other thing, Gudikins and Laflor,
I mean, part of the thing with Aaron Rodgers when
it got weird was because of this, because of this guy.
Now it feels like Aaron likes the guy. Obviously, you know,
people are just most quarterbacks should be well liked. They
(12:35):
should be guys, guys, They should get along with a
lot of people. And let's face it, based on the
evidence we have, like Gudakins and the Floor were right,
they got rid of the older quarterback and they went
with the younger guy who's got a chance to be Listen,
he's got a long way to go to win four
or five MVPs. I'm not saying he's going to be
better than Aaron Rodgers, but he showed signs of Aaron Rodgers. Why,
(12:59):
huge arm, a fleet, accurate, great deep ball. Obviously they
are a high level organization. They draft, well, they always
have good pieces. I mean they've had good pieces on
offense and Farvo's there. Think of Roger's time, right from
Driver to Greg Jennings to Jordan Nelson to Devonte Adams.
(13:19):
They always got, you know, running backs. They're always have
a pretty solid offensive line. Defense is somewhat the question mark.
They got to figure that out. But part of that
to me is getting a good defensive coordinator. So listen,
I haven't picked my divisions yet, it's only July twenty second.
But and the only reason I wouldn't pick the Packers
because they're in the division with the Lions. But I
(13:40):
like the Packers a lot, and I like this player
a lot. He blew me away. So I understand betton
On because sometimes part of life is, you know, there's
always risk involved, but you try to mitigate it. But
when I'm a huge believer in following your gut, and
once your gut you have some evidence, I'm all about
(14:01):
pushing your chips in the middle of the table. Like
life's if you want to get anywhere successful, big, wherever
you're trying to go, sometimes you got to have the
balls to put it, you know, all the chips in
the middle of the table, and that's what it feels
like the Packers are about to do with Jordan Loff
and then left the cards fall out of they may.
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Speaker 2 (15:10):
Some other NFL topics around the league, I saw Rogers
part of my take. Guys were in Tahoe for that
American Century. I think might be a good idea to
do that next year. A lot of dudes there for sure,
and they talked to Aaron Rodgers. I don't know if
Aaron Rodgers come on this podcast, but overall, the mini
(15:30):
camp story, like the more and more I've thought about this,
and he laughed about it. It's one of the dumbest
stories ever. These mini camps and OTAs are so dumb.
It's why I have no sympathy when these guys get
fined or whatever for not showing up. Like he got fined,
but he's not really complaining about it. But like, if
(15:52):
you are there, just go. It's so easy. It's a
country club environment. It's never been easier. I've been going
to these practices for almost fifteen plus years and they're
kind of a joke. And like Aaron said, like I
was there the entire offseason and I have this trip
planned to Egypt. I don't know if he was doing
aahwask I don't know what he was doing. I really
don't care. But it became a big deal partly because
(16:14):
Robert Sala, who is a good guy, good coach. We're
not sure clearly didn't handle that situation well. Now, I
also understand if they don't find Rogers, they set the president.
They were in a weird spot. But the whether the
Jets are good or bad this year will have absolutely
(16:35):
nothing to do with those two practices in early June.
So it was a topic partly because there wasn't much
going on, partly because Aaron Rodgers and he's a polarizing
figure that the media hates that he hated mask and
they wore him for three straight years. So I just
think that like he's become so polarizing in anything he says,
(16:57):
anything he does, becomes an issue. But I'll promise you
it does not matter. John Harbaugh had a quote today
and listen, the Harbaugh's can say some crazy things, like
they have been doing it for years. And Jim the
moment he got the job with the Ravens said some stuff,
(17:18):
right he or excuse me, the Chargers about Justin Herbert
being like a super he just he talks to hyper
you know, hyperbolic statements. Sometimes I think it's fair to say,
and I'm okay with that. Part of the position they're
in is hyping guys up. I mean, you had Harbass
saying that he thinks Rashad Bateman should be one of
(17:39):
the best wide receivers in the league as like a
career thirty four catches. But today, like Lamar Jackson's well established,
he's one of the best quarterbacks in the league, and
he's won multiple MVPs. He's a high end, elite player.
No one would debate that. And for John Harbaugh to
say that we plan on Lamar Jackson being the greatest
(18:02):
quarterback of all time, like that's where it's just how
does anyone take you seriously? Honestly, how about we just
focus on playing good playoff games because he is never
as long as Patrick Mahomes isn't a league gonna be
the best quarterback in the NFL. Honestly, if Joe Burrow
(18:24):
is healthy, I don't even think he's a top three guy.
Now he's won MVPs, he has great regular season I
don't really give a shit. Like after a while, once
you become the high end, top three or four guy,
you're completely judged in January, like I expect you throw
a lot of touchdowns. I expect you to win a
lot of regular season games. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers.
All the top players in my life have dominated the
(18:45):
regular season, whether you win MVPs or not. Doesn't Aaron
Rodgers have more MVPs than Tom Brady. Pretty sure that
Peyton Manning has more MVPs than Tom Brady. Like you
judged on January, how you play, and no one in
my lifetime has been better in January than Tom just
like the modern day version of Patrick Mahomes, like, no
one's more dial than that guy. And I'm sorry Lamar Jackson,
(19:08):
and listen, I'm not blaming Lamar because he didn't say
this and he's at home sick or whatever. They sent
him home from training camp. Is like John, let's just say, listen,
we're gonna do everything possible to make Lamar Jackson the
best quarterback in the league. And he's already competed to
do that. And then when it's mattered the most, he
hasn't played that well. He just hasn't. I don't think
(19:30):
there's a general manager in the league. Obviously, Mahomes if
we did the draft would go one. I don't think
there's one in the league that wouldn't take Josh Allen second.
Maybe there would be some because of the injury factor
with Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson, but there would definitely
be some people in the NFL that would take Joe
Burrow over Lamar Jackson. So like part of this when
(19:52):
you start making those comments like I can't take you
seriously and listen, I'm someone that bet on them this year,
and like the Ravens, I was fucking humbled by the
Kansassee Chiefs and one of the greatest players I've ever
seen in Patrick Mahomes humbled. So let's just pump the brakes.
Let's just focus on doing everything possible to play two
(20:14):
good playoff games in a row. And the reality is
he didn't because Lamar wasn't even good in the first
half against the Houston Texans, and just because the Ravens
were so much better than the Texans, it wasn't really
a fair fight in the second half. And then they
played the Chiefs at home, and let's face it, got embarrassed.
That was one of the most embarrassing playoff performances I
can ever remember, because they were, on paper the better team.
(20:39):
The Chiefs offense was pretty average the majority of the season,
and they were averaging that game, did not score a
point in the second half. So if you can't beat
a team, it'd be one thing. Didn't score a point
in the second half, and they scored thirty five in
the first half. They finished with seventeen points. You're at home,
big favorite, can't win the game. I'm sorry, Like i'
(21:00):
herb believe, no one wants to hear it. No one
takes you seriously when you say stuff like that. After
that performance, Let's just focus on, like what do we
need to do when a playoff game comes to beat
that guy? Hell, Joe Burrow beat that guy. I saw it.
We all did in Kansas City, remember in the AMC
Championship game, and the Bengals went to the Super Bowl
and then Burrough played pretty good and they had the
(21:21):
lead late in the game. Speaking of Joe Burrow, he's
fully cleared, and to me, they're one of the biggest
kind of just curveballs from last season that like, if
he's fully healthy and he plays seventeen games, they're a
major problem, period, point blank. In the story. Now, I'm
a little unsure. I'm not a doctor. Didn't go to
(21:41):
medical school, was there for more than four years, but
it was because I was screwing around but you read
about that injury, you just never know. We have to
see if he has any information during training camp if
he's fully healthy. If Joe Burrow can play seventeen games
fully healthy, they're gonna be good. That's where they're at
as a franchise, right, Like if you get that guy Boom.
(22:03):
It's like in the NBA, if you give me one
of the top five or six guys, I'm boom fifty wins,
you know, in his prime, like you're in the playoffs.
That's the way it works. And to me, Joe Burrow
has proven when he's healthy, they can dominate on offense,
and they have a good coaching staff, right, so I
(22:23):
think him during training camp, to me, is one of
the bigger question marks of just like does he ever
have to miss a practice? Is it one of those
like three on one off? I mean technically that's how
these training camp practices are anyway, because there's no double days,
but in terms of like an actual practice, and they
give it to them off because of the injury, right
(22:44):
and because they're just like listen, we're not trying to
push too artists. It's just something to monitor. I'm rooting
for him to play because I mean, obviously I like
and I'm rooting for him. You know, I want to
see the guy that we saw last year against the
forty nine ers. The league is better when all their
players are at the highest level, and the league is
lucky right now, mahomes peak of his powers, all time
(23:04):
great Josh Allen, one of the most talented guys we've
ever seen, Lamar Jackson, you know, probably the best running
quarterback ever. Steve Young, by the time he won a
Super Bowl, was much more of a pocket quarterback. But
he's you know, he's already got two MVPs. Obviously, Burrow
Herbert now with Harbaugh, I mean we are to transition.
(23:27):
Rogers has a year or two left. But to go
from Manning, Brady and Rodgers to now have this crew
league should feel pretty good because these guys are showstoppers.
They're Courtney Cronin, who has covered NFL teams. She covers
(23:48):
the Bears now I think she used to cover the Vikings.
I think she's originally from the Bay I've followed her
forever on social media. Had this tweet the other day
and it was from Keenan Allen. I think it was
at his press conference and He talked about staying at
the same hotel with Caleb Williams during mini camp because
(24:08):
in making sure that he spent a lot of time
with him, basically because he doesn't learn from just going
back to his room and studying the playbook. He said,
I won't pick it up that way. That's not the
way I learned. So we spent constant time, him drilling
me and going over plays and me going back and
that's how I am able to take in the information.
(24:31):
And it struck me and it has for a long
time that no one in the NFL sustains a high
level of play on Sundays randomly. Your god given gifts,
which all these guys have, can get you by early
on in your career, definitely gets you by in college
and maybe for a year or two in the NFL,
(24:53):
but to sustain it for five eight a decade. The
level of focus, the level of work ethic, and the
level of attention to detail of your craft. I was
I was on the golf course last week. I was
telling them about my time in Philly and just the
level of hours in which you spend at the facility
(25:13):
as a scout, obviously as a coach, but even as
a player. And I think I've always said it's the
NFL is Wall Street on grass. I mean, you're just
you're talking fifteen eighteen hour work days, long long falls.
It's a grind, and you better buckle that, you know
what up because it is. It's mentally taxing, and for
(25:36):
players it's mentally and physically taxing. You could argue for
coaches as well, because you know the lack of sleep,
the thrown off workout schedules, You're just you're out of it.
You better have a lot of cold brew, maybe an
adderall prescription, and just figure out a way to get
by because it's hard. And that's why we always talk
(25:56):
about with players why you have to love it. You
have to be addicted to it, because there's no way
to spend the amount of time that it takes without
really liking what you do. It's my number one level
or advice to any younger person. Fine and listen, I'm
not alone on this. I can just speak from my
own experience that if I did something for a living
(26:20):
that I did not like to do, I could not
spend the time in which I spend on that thing.
It wouldn't be possible. I would not care. I would
mail it in constantly. When you find what you like
to do, like truly passion deep in your soul, it's
easier to work because you can work long days and
it doesn't feel like you're working. And Keenan Allen, like
(26:43):
there was a reason he went in the third round.
He's not very fast. Guess what, He's slower now than
he was back then. But when you think Keenan Allen,
you go, God, he's one of the smartest players in
the league. Knows how to get open. Obviously he's tough,
and obviously he's skilled, but it's because of the mental
work ethic that it takes to play at a high level.
(27:07):
And I think, listen, there are countless players all over
the NFL that grind and you're just not gonna be good.
I mean, look at some of the best players in
recent memory that have retired. You go, does that guy
love football? If you had to do one to ten,
ten being the most and one being basically doesn't like it.
Like Aaron Donald, what number would you choose? Jason Kelcey,
(27:30):
what number would you choose? Tom Brady, what number would
you choose? Let's be real, the three guys I just
listed ten out of ten would feel low, Like Tom's
like fifty out of ten, Donald's like forty five out
of ten. Kelsey's right there too, And that's what it takes.
That's what it takes. It's why during the draft that
(27:51):
these uncomfortable conversations, the media is like, that's not fair.
They deserve to have a balance life. Well, yeah, sure,
as a guy making one hundred grand can have a
balanced life, and that is fair. Your expectations are different
when you get paid ten million dollars, twenty million dollars,
thirty million dollars. I don't care what you do. If
Google's paying you twenty five million dollars, what do you
(28:13):
think their expectations are gonna be for you? If Goldman
Sachs is paying you thirteen million dollars, you think it's like,
oh yeah, just nine to five and three day weekends
whenever you want. That's not the way the world works.
So yeah, it's very serious, and that's what a lot
of the great players they give it right back. It's
why when these guys retire, the way these coaches and
these general managers talk about these players like that, that's
(28:36):
the sad part about Keenan Allen with Harball just financially
didn't that up and they chose the defensive lineman. Jim
Harball would love Keenan Allen. He would love Keenan Allen,
and the Bears are lucky. That's a even if he's
only there for a year. No brainer trade. And last,
but not least, I saw this story that I thought
(28:56):
was kind of fascinating. There's got to be like seventeen
teams down in La dur in training camp, the Rams,
the Chargers, the Cowboys, and now the Raiders. But I
guess there's this rule that because it's another team's territory.
I'm not quite sure how the Cowboys get away with this,
(29:17):
and maybe they don't. They're just so big that you
naturally see people down there. The Raiders went to southern
California for this training camp. Obviously it's one hundred and
seventy five degrees in Vegas. But part of it is
they're not able to promote that they're in Los Angeles.
They're not the way that Mike Florio wrote it is,
(29:40):
they're not even able to have fans, and that seems
a little crazy to me, but I understand going and
I saw some quotes from Antonio Pierce. Listen, a lot
of teams. My only experience in the NFL was going
away to training camp. We went to Lehigh. The Eagles
no longer do that. They now practice at their facility.
(30:03):
Andy when he went to Kansas City, they still go
away to training camp. I'm a believer in going to
training camp, even though sometimes when you're there, player, coach, scout, whatever,
it can suck a little bit, but there is something
special about that bonding period as just kind of a group.
So like, I'm all for it. I just think these
rules are kind of crazy that you have to basically
(30:26):
not say anything. But a lot of teams it's not
other California. I mean this, listen, it's hard to beat
that weather because it's pretty hot otherwise. And I think
part of it too is you know the Cardinals in Scottsdale.
I mean they're technically I think south of Phoenix, but
the Vegas Raider it is so hot that even in
(30:48):
the morning, you gotta practice indoors. It's one thing like
even at Lehigh, a couple times it would rain, we
had to practice indoors. Like weird weather in the South.
But I think ideally in training camp, you want to
practice outside on the grass. You got ninety guys, you
got stations all over the place, So I get why
the Raiders go. I just think that's kind of a
(31:09):
crazy rule that clearly the Chargers and the Rams are
not exactly waving. They're like, oh yeah, it's cool, man,
you can wait. You're allowed to promote. No no, They're like, no,
not allowed. Even Mark Davis like it is what it is.
We're coming to la. Okay, let's dive into the mailbag
(31:36):
at John Middlecoff. At John Middlecoff is the Instagram and
DM's wide open. So just fire in, get your question
answered here on the show, and that's what we do.
Sorr Brendan, there are clearly different approaches that front office
takes to structuring contracts when they're a contender. The Bills
(31:56):
and Cowboys did massive backloaded contracts and are now having
to cut good players. What do you think is the
right balance between going all in with backloaded contracts to
contend now versus keeping a long term view. I'm a
Lions fan and curious how you would handle having the
amount of studs on the roster Detroit does with massive
(32:20):
contracts Looming. I got news for you. The only way
to do it is that. And the only reason we
notice is because when you're good for a long time,
you don't get rid of those players. Most crappy teams
are constantly trading, cutting and churning their roster, so even
(32:42):
when they sign players, those guys don't last long and
no one really pays attention. Well, the Bills have won
the division what four straight years, and that core group
of guys was on the team the whole time. And
when you have a quarterback, the same with the Cowboys
making a lot of money, you have three or four
Pro Bowl players, it adds up quick. So I don't
(33:04):
think they do anything different than anyone else. I really
don't look at how the Eagles structure contracts or the
forty nine ers. Everything is backloaded. Nothing is like a
three year contract and you put the salary cap space.
Now the way you actually, here's what's complicated about the NFL.
(33:25):
If I give you a three year, seventy million dollar contract,
so what's that twenty three million dollars a year? Just
for the way we're gonna put this conversation together, So
you're making twenty three million dollars a year adds up
to sixty nine million, but well it's just sixty you know,
twenty three. You guys get it, and I pay you
(33:45):
a fifty million dollars signing bonus. So I give you
three year, seventy million dollars, and I give you fifty
million dollars guaranteed, and I give it all up front
and the signing bonus. So even though you get the
cash basically within the couple weeks of signing the contract,
I would never in a million years, unless I was
a terrible team with just no good players on it,
(34:07):
not put that money back. You know, if I signed
it this offseason in two thousand and I don't know,
twenty six a large percentage of it. And that's how
all these contracts work. So I don't think the Bills
or Cowboys are alone. I think both of them had
the same scenario happen. They kept a lot of guys
and then over a three or four year period they
(34:27):
kind of had to perch. One reason the Chiefs were
able to kind of circumvent that because they would have
been in the same exact scenario what happened. They sent
Tyreek packin. Do you know much money. That saved them
a lot, and that allowed them to kind of keep
their group of players together while infusing some youth. I
(34:51):
don't know if it's true or not, but instagram saying
that Tyreek Hill has a lot of children like a
lot of children. I just don't think any any team
structures contracts any differently than now. You could argue the
Cowboys wait the longest. I can't don't. I don't follow
the Bills contracts close enough. Clearly the Cowboys go up
(35:14):
until you know the line where a lot of teams
think about the team of their division. The Eagles always
try to be proactive, hopefully it saves them five ten
million dollars a player, where the Cowboys just write it out.
It seems like the Giants are prime for and are
likely in the midst of a thirty year run of
(35:36):
futility like the Lions before Campbell arrived. I was hoping
things would turned around after Mara hired Shane instead of
one of his old cronies such as Gettleman. Hard knocks
is showing that Mara clearly is trying to influence front
office decisions regarding supposed quote unquote fan favorite one thing
(36:00):
on the word fan favorite. He's their best player, so
it's like and their offense is anemic beside him. So
I think fan favorite gets taken out of context. I
think he's just trying to say, like, this is one
of the best, most popular players we've had, and we've
had a lot of them. I think that's what he
was saying more than like just selling jerseys. Now, some
(36:24):
people might want to disagree, but that's owners don't talk
like GMS players such as Saquon and Dan Jones, even
if it may be in the best interest of the organization,
they should move on. He comes off like a trust
fund child who needs to be put in his place
by the adults. It's not a stretch to think that
(36:47):
Mara pushed for a Jones extension last year. Shane acquiesced
as it was his first real offseason as a GM,
but gave himself an out after year two. Kinda. I mean,
it's still gonna cost them some money. It's not that
they gave him ninety two million dollars guaranteed. All I
hear is everyone's like, it's two year contract. Look at
(37:08):
the contract. This year's big, but next year is not zero.
It seems Shane was determined to do what he thought
was right now, withstanding the external pressure from ownership, I
feel like successful teams I hear what you're saying. I
don't know, man, I think part of being a good
owner in football is just hiring the right guys. And
(37:30):
hiring the right guys is really hard. Like, is Robert
crab some fucking genius when it comes to football ownership?
He's obviously was an excellent businessman, and he hired Bill Belichick,
who then drafted Tom Brady and it changed their lives.
Is Jeffrey Lurie Like he invests all the money, but
(37:50):
he kind of went all in on Howie Roseman and
it was a smart move. When you hire the wrong people,
you could argue in any industry, but more so in football,
then you could argue Wall Street, construction, you name it,
because the dude hiring knows like a lot of guys.
If I own a construction company, right, there's a decent chance.
(38:14):
I'm not saying I know everything every trade, but I
bet if we just went construction owner by construction owner
in your town, in your city, like, they would have
a background in the business right and have an understanding
of certain things. That go on on a day to
day basis of their projects. I'm not saying be masters
at it. Football owners don't know a football play like
(38:39):
literally wouldn't know one play in the playbook. It's not
like they're scouts. They would have some understanding of the
money stuff, but in terms of building it, they know
nothing about it. There can't be many industries like that, Right,
you go to Wall Street, Like Steve Cohen knows a
lot about stocks, right, Warren buff It has a pretty
(39:00):
good idea about the market. Doesn't mean he knows everything,
but like one of his employees, he can have a
conversation in that employee. John Mara or Jed York or hell,
Jerry is one of the rare guys. He played college football.
Most of these guys are just rich kids. I mean, really,
the majority of owners now in the NFL are rich kids.
(39:22):
It doesn't mean they're not high level guys. Yeah, I
think John Marr is a pretty high level guy. He
has just made mistake after a mistake, and it looks
like this is going to be a mistake as well.
I would say the highers than which he made in
Joe Shane and Brian day Ball made a lot more
sense than his previous hires. But I say it's all
(39:44):
the time with coordinator. Just because you're a great coordinator
does not mean you're gonna be the next McVeigh or Shanahan.
More than likely you're gonna suck. History would show us
that most gms are gonna be over their head. It
doesn't mean they don't know football, It doesn't mean they
don't work hard. It just means like it's a really,
really difficult job. You have to balance a lot, And
(40:07):
I just think this thing's going to go down in flames.
And I don't think it's John Morris's fault because even
though he said fan Forever, he didn't mandate that they
resigned him. I think the bigger issue is they hired
what looked like two successful guys, the assistant GM from
the Bills and the offensive coordinator who had coached Josh
Allen's first four years. How could you argue those two hires.
(40:28):
Me and you might have made those hires, But once
you make those hires, kind of keep your fingers crossed.
Sometimes you just hire like Andy Reid, who's like a
tight end coach run game coordinator for the Packers in
ninety eight hope and then he becomes Andy Reid. But
I bet there were other coaches hired that coaching cycle
(40:50):
that all of a sudden, it's like, but this guy
was working for Bill Parcells. So you just never know.
And I you obviously take the most educated guess you
can take of Like, listen, these guys got a long resume.
He has been a lot of different places. This guy
helped draft these five players. This coordinator was excellent working
(41:12):
with these two quarterbacks. But you never know because the
job you just it's so different. It's so different. Even
as a coordinator, right, Like I say it all the time,
you don't have to worry about the other side of
the ball. You don't have to manage the defensive coaches.
Sometimes you don't even have to manage the own coaches
on your side of the ball because the head coach
(41:33):
is doing. Man, what's up, big fan here from Mexi, Cali, Baja, California.
A question for your mail bag. If you had to
bet the Chargers are gonna win a ring in ten
years with hardball, you take yes or no bonus question
in and out or five guys. I never understand the
hate on in and out. I would consider myself a
(41:55):
cheeseburger connoisseur, and I think In and Out is elite.
I think it's elite. Now if you want to quibble
with the fries, I get it. Fries leave a little
something to be desired, though I don't mind them. And
I got fat because all I've been doing is drinking
and eating for the last two weeks, and my only
workouts have been walks and swimming in the beach. So
(42:17):
but when I'm trying to be healthy, I try to
avoid the French fries. The other thing that In and
Out I think does such a great job of that.
Really nowhere else does is they don't outthink the room.
They're just so simple. You got three or four options, honestly,
like their curveball is a protein burger or animal style fries.
(42:39):
But it's one of It's not the biggest business because
of like Google and Facebook and Apple or headquarters in
California for how long who knows. But In and Out's
easily one of the best run businesses on the West Coast,
and I don't think these other places can say that.
So five guys good. I personally prefer Shake Shack over
(43:04):
five guys. But the problem with shakeshack for us. You know,
if you're watching your weight, it's just hard to go
shake shack, not gonna miokscheck with your cheeburger, and that's
just a fat move. As the older you get, it's
one thing you know when you're young, but the older
you get and you know, the metabolism slows. That's a
gut bomb waiting to happen. Your question on the Chargers,
(43:25):
I think that, Uh, I guess I would just bet yes.
I guess I would just bet yes if Pete Carroll
can win a national championship and a Super Bowl. Jim
Harbaugh cana as well. And I think the Chargers I
think nine to ten wins this year. I guess by
the time we get there, we'll have to see how
(43:47):
injuries happen during training camp. But I think I'm probably
gonna pick them to be the six or seventh wildcard
team just because I bet on Jim Harbaugh. And one
thing I've learned since doing this podcast with takes and predictions,
it's hard to go wrong betting on high end coaches.
Where you get burned is betting on question marks as
(44:08):
the coach. It truly is like last year, bet on
Dennis Allen in the Saints and I got burned. I've
bet on the Chargers over the years with like Anthony
Lynn and Mike McCoy and Brandis Staley just because their
roster I thought was so good, and then you get burned.
So when you bet on the Harbob Brothers, Kyle McVeigh
(44:29):
now Dan Campbell. That's why if you want to bet
on Sean Payton, I wouldn't argue with you. You're usually
proven right more than wrong. And I'm not talking on it,
you know, betting on an individual game. I'm just talking
over the course of a season. It's a long season,
and the cream usually rises, right, the cream usually rises,
So that's what I would expect. I mean, look at
(44:51):
the NFC playoff teams last year, Kyle Shanahan. We can
make fun of Mike McCarthy all we want, and he
deserves some criticism. Google his resume. I mean, we talk
about Mike McCarthy a little different than his resume. Looks
like he's pretty good. Obviously, his playoff resume in Dallas
leaves a little to be desired, but he's a pretty
good coach. Lafloor, right, you just go Dan Campbell, like
(45:16):
you just start going through Todd Bowles, who I'm not
sure how good he is, but that's a well run operation.
With Jason Light Sirianni, who's coaching first job. Probably again
a little like the Bucks. The Eagles are just well
run and Sirianni now he gets better assistant coaches. Maybe
it goes a little bit better. Question for the back.
(45:39):
It's election season. Here we go. If any athlete in
the past fifty years decided to run for president, who
do you think would have the best chance of winning
the White House? And why? Okay, I'll pick up a
Republican and I'll pick a Democrat. If I had to
(46:03):
pick a Republican, I would go Peyton Manning. I would say,
now here, listen. He is well liked in the media.
Once you pick that side, ninety eight percent of them
are gonna hate you, try to crush you. But I
would say he is one of the more presidential just
(46:24):
operators over the last twenty five years. He can balance
very very well being a man of the people and
also running with the elites, so he could campaign well.
He campaigned really well. I think he works like on
the West Coast, in the South, the Midwest. I think
obviously Indianapolis, I think he would just he would dominate
(46:49):
the debates. I just think he's well spoken, he's got
a personality. I think Peyton Manning as a Republican and
I think if you had to go on the other
side of the aisle, think you could have to go
like Steph Curry, democrat, smiles a lot people just like him,
just gets along with everybody. I think he'd be one
(47:09):
of those guys that would get along with a lot
of people on the other side of the aisle. Same
thing with Peyton Manning. Just good at rubbing elbows. Obviously
you would have the media behind him being on that side.
And yeah, I mean I think those two guys come
to mind pretty quickly. You know, you'd choose Peyton Manning
over Brady. I think Brady would be a little more polarizing.
(47:33):
There's just be people that just wouldn't want to like him.
I also think the work he got done, you knows,
he doesn't look just he's got a lot of work done.
You know, Peyton looks a little more natural whenever you
see him at one of these Tennessee Titans or not
Tennessee Titans games. But like Tennessee volunteer, like baseball, college
World Series, got a little gut going see even the
(47:53):
Nuggets game. He kind of looks like a normal dude,
even though he doesn't. He's huge, like he's really tall.
But I'm just saying, you know, Tom's got abs and
he's got fake hair. Peyton just looks like a guy
who's like, eat a cheeseburger night for dinner, even though
he's probably got like a chef. I mean, so does Curry.
The hard part is it probably be those two. And
(48:14):
maybe that's you know, recency biased, but those would probably
be the two I'd go to the volume
The volume.
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Speaker 2 (02:13):
What is going on? Everybody? It is Monday, Monday afternoon,
and UH record a little podcast because I'm John Middlecoff.
This is three and out podcast. We have I woke
up to some news on Jordan Love Saw Rogers had
some comments with the part of my take. Guys, John
(02:33):
Harbaugh talking craziness, Burrow Cleared, Keenan Allen some thoughts the
Raiders and Los Angeles training camp. So we will, uh well,
hit on a lot of different stuff because football season.
I wouldn't say it's officially here, but by the end
of the week all the veterans will be there, and
by the end of next week everyone will be in
uh in pads, probably even before that. By the middle
(02:55):
of next week, the pads will come on. So you know,
I'm really excited. How could you not be because it's
football season, well not quite football season, but you're starting
to get that, you know, that feel it's right here.
We can summer breaks over. Not for me officially, because
I'm still in Lake Tahoe. I got to go to
this vander Pump restaurant tonight that she's really wanted to
(03:16):
go to in the Harvey's Casino on the other side
of the lake. So we'll see how that food is
from Lisa. Lisa vander Pump, who I guess is into restaurants,
I'd be lying if I know much about her. But
other than that, we'll do a little mail bag here
as well at John Middlecoff. At John Middlecoff is the Instagram.
Fire into those dms and get your question answer here
(03:39):
on the show, We're rocking and rolling Baby, So podcast
yesterday if you missed it on the Open and Xander
winning and Scottie and just everything going on, and we'll
have another podcast tomorrow, I'm sure. So you know where
to find us YouTube. If you haven't, go subscribe obviously
this feed three and out. Make sure you subscribe to
the podcast if you listen on Collins feed. And like
(04:01):
I said, Instagram is how you get in on the
mailbag at John Middlecoff. My name two f's let's rock
and roll. But first listen if you're excited for some
football and you want to go to a football game,
college or pro. God, I really want to go to
an SEC game this fall is just hard with my
work schedule, but I might have to make it happen.
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You don't like anyone on or homepage on Instagram. You
get all sorts of crap. And today I saw this
(05:05):
clip of Cuban with Howard Stern. It looked like when
Cuban was a lot younger, so maybe this was ten
fifteen years ago, and Cuban told the story about how
when I think he was acquired his company by Yahoo
and they gave him the stock options, and this was
right before the dot com crash of like ninety nine
(05:27):
two thousand and what he essentially did is he put
a force sell on the stock if it hit a
certain number not much higher from what he had, and
he hedged his bet that if it went lower, the
puts in the calls essentially that he couldn't lose, then
he might make a little less, but under no circumstances
was he going to get bent over and left holding nothing.
(05:48):
And a lot of people did. And Mark Cuban obviously
made over two billion dollars, and he said, we had
countless people. I told everyone that was involved with our
company to do it. Some people listened. We had just
random employees that made twenty five thirty million dollars because
of it, and we had people that made basically nothing.
And when you have an astronomical amount of money on
(06:09):
the line, I think you have to be very careful.
And when the story broke this morning, you know you
didn't have that much information. And as time went on
and you read Gudikin's quotes, it's pretty clear. And they've
talked about it since OTAs they are working on a
contract right now, and it feels like it's coming down
the home stretch. Part of what Gudakin said today with
(06:32):
Jordan Love, we think he won't miss much time now.
Obviously he's not missing any time in the sense of
he's at the building, he's at the facility, he's there
during meetings. But I think it's fair. If I was
going to take an educated guess, I would imagine this
contract's closer to Trevor Lawrence than it is Kirk Cousins.
(06:53):
So you're talking anywhere between one hundred and fifty two
hundred million dollars guaranteed. And I'm sorry, and the quarterback
actually saw Patrick Mahomes showed up. It's like pitchers and catchers,
they have to get there when the rookies get there.
It's just not worth someone falling into your leg youse,
planning weird and tearing an ACL. There is just too
much money on the line. I always support listen. I'm
(07:15):
a supporter of hold ins more than holdouts, because this
is not these other sports, especially baseball, where you know
this team can't pay you. In football, every team has
the money. And when you're a high end player. And
we'll get into the the question marks with Jordan Love,
but clearly he showed enough that, like if he can
maintain it, he's a high end player, especially at his position,
(07:37):
teams are gonna want you hold in, like, do it
in good faith negotiation. Negotiating through the media, I'm sorry,
is just kind of stupid in twenty twenty four. It
doesn't work, nothing like scrubbing your Instagram account. I'm sorry. No,
general manager or head coach gives a shit about your
Instagram account. So I give Jordan Love credit. Now, you
could argue he's only a one year starter. He's really
(07:59):
only had half a really good season. Holding out would
be a little extreme, but I definitely completely understand. You
have to take all the risk out of it. You
can't tear an ACL at some walkthrough because some overachiever
undrafted free agent is trying to be a hero and
get noticed by the defensive line coach and takes your
(08:20):
knee out and I'm sorry. Like, there's a cutthroat world.
That's the way the private sector in America works, and
they would yank that bad boy quickly off the table.
So this is the right to me move, by his agent,
by him, and it's also a good way to do it,
showing this isn't contentious. We're just being smart about our
money because there's just too much on the line. I
(08:40):
say it all the time, like when I won that
bet on Bryson to win eighteen thousand dollars. It didn't
give me that big of a high, partly because I
only had one hundred and fifty dollars on the line.
But if I had had ten thousand dollars to win
eighteen thousand, I would have sweated it a lot more.
And the level in which the number we're talking about
(09:01):
with these quarterback contracts, and like I said, my guess
would be, maybe it's a little under Trevor Lawrence. Even
though here's what I know. If you just look at
these players like stocks, if I had to buy one,
I would buy Jordan Love over Trevor Lawrence. And honestly,
I wouldn't hesitate. I wouldn't even have to think. And
(09:21):
if I was a GM, I wouldn't even have to
hold a meeting. I would one hundred percent take Jordan
Love over Tua. And we're talking about guys. One guy
just signed a big contract. The other guy's talking contract negotiations.
Now there's no debating there is risk involved. Both those
guys have been playing a lot more. We have a
lot longer resume, And part of being a good player
at the highest level in the NFL is doing it
(09:43):
over and over and over and over again. And it's hard.
Like we've all watched the NFL long enough now to know,
like there's a reason the great players really the only
thing that slows them down is injury. But how difficult
it is to maintain a pre all pro level of play. Listen,
we can nitpick Aaron Rodgers, but the motherfucker was elite
(10:05):
for fifteen straight years, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Like, the
only thing that slows those guys down are injuries. We've
seen a lot of players have good years then come
back to earth, Matt Ryan, cam Newton, Philip Rivers, somewhat
up and down. Eli Manning, Right, most guys are not elite.
And listen, this guy you could not watch the Packers
(10:26):
last year and I go, you know, it kind of
looks like Aaron Rodgers. I mean, that's kind of the
throw Aaron Rodgers used to make. It's crazy to say that. Listen,
I was wrong. I shorted the situation. I just played
the odds. I'm like, wait, you're telling me you're gonna
go from FARV to Rogers. They literally went from FARV
(10:48):
to a guy who's better than FARV. Like, now you're
gonna get another even if he's not better than Rogers
or FARV, another high end guy. Early on the season,
I felt pretty good about my stance by the end,
and I've thrown it out and like, I kind of
like this player I'm in and I heard Collins saying this, Listen.
Part of investing in this situation is you've been around
this guy for four straight years. You know how he
(11:11):
interacts with his teammates, you know how he studies, you
know how he prepares. You have no question marks and
that while short body of work, it couldn't have been
much more impressive down the stretch. I mean, we saw
him in a game against Dak Prescott. Dak Prescott just
signed a four year, one hundred and sixty million dollar
contract five years ago, and now he thinks he's gonna
get over two hundred million dollars. Who would you take again.
(11:32):
It's not like there's no risk involved. I got news
for you. There's risk in everything. Every business, no matter
what you do, has risk involved, even the most quote
unquote you know recession proof industries everything that there are
tailwinds here. But you could not tell me sitting here
for the next five years if you had to bet
on one, Dak's the safer bet. If you want to
(11:53):
stay in the slow lane, I'll go on the fast lane.
I'll probably pass you. And that's what I think the
packers are looking at this and That's probably why he's
just can't risk someone falling into his leg over the
next Again, based on the quotes I saw, it feels
like this deal's done within the next at latest seven days,
potentially in the next couple days. It's gonna be a
(12:14):
lot of money. But they have to feel pretty good
about their stance. Here's the other thing, Gudikins and Laflor,
I mean, part of the thing with Aaron Rodgers when
it got weird was because of this, because of this guy.
Now it feels like Aaron likes the guy. Obviously, you know,
people are just most quarterbacks should be well liked. They
(12:35):
should be guys, guys, They should get along with a
lot of people. And let's face it, based on the
evidence we have, like Gudakins and the Floor were right,
they got rid of the older quarterback and they went
with the younger guy who's got a chance to be Listen,
he's got a long way to go to win four
or five MVPs. I'm not saying he's going to be
better than Aaron Rodgers, but he showed signs of Aaron Rodgers. Why,
(12:59):
huge arm, a fleet, accurate, great deep ball. Obviously they
are a high level organization. They draft, well, they always
have good pieces. I mean they've had good pieces on
offense and Farvo's there. Think of Roger's time, right from
Driver to Greg Jennings to Jordan Nelson to Devonte Adams.
(13:19):
They always got, you know, running backs. They're always have
a pretty solid offensive line. Defense is somewhat the question mark.
They got to figure that out. But part of that
to me is getting a good defensive coordinator. So listen,
I haven't picked my divisions yet, it's only July twenty second.
But and the only reason I wouldn't pick the Packers
because they're in the division with the Lions. But I
(13:40):
like the Packers a lot, and I like this player
a lot. He blew me away. So I understand betton
On because sometimes part of life is, you know, there's
always risk involved, but you try to mitigate it. But
when I'm a huge believer in following your gut, and
once your gut you have some evidence, I'm all about
(14:01):
pushing your chips in the middle of the table. Like
life's if you want to get anywhere successful, big, wherever
you're trying to go, sometimes you got to have the
balls to put it, you know, all the chips in
the middle of the table, and that's what it feels
like the Packers are about to do with Jordan Loff
and then left the cards fall out of they may.
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(14:45):
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Speaker 2 (15:10):
Some other NFL topics around the league, I saw Rogers
part of my take. Guys were in Tahoe for that
American Century. I think might be a good idea to
do that next year. A lot of dudes there for sure,
and they talked to Aaron Rodgers. I don't know if
Aaron Rodgers come on this podcast, but overall, the mini
(15:30):
camp story, like the more and more I've thought about this,
and he laughed about it. It's one of the dumbest
stories ever. These mini camps and OTAs are so dumb.
It's why I have no sympathy when these guys get
fined or whatever for not showing up. Like he got fined,
but he's not really complaining about it. But like, if
(15:52):
you are there, just go. It's so easy. It's a
country club environment. It's never been easier. I've been going
to these practices for almost fifteen plus years and they're
kind of a joke. And like Aaron said, like I
was there the entire offseason and I have this trip
planned to Egypt. I don't know if he was doing
aahwask I don't know what he was doing. I really
don't care. But it became a big deal partly because
(16:14):
Robert Sala, who is a good guy, good coach. We're
not sure clearly didn't handle that situation well. Now, I
also understand if they don't find Rogers, they set the president.
They were in a weird spot. But the whether the
Jets are good or bad this year will have absolutely
(16:35):
nothing to do with those two practices in early June.
So it was a topic partly because there wasn't much
going on, partly because Aaron Rodgers and he's a polarizing
figure that the media hates that he hated mask and
they wore him for three straight years. So I just
think that like he's become so polarizing in anything he says,
(16:57):
anything he does, becomes an issue. But I'll promise you
it does not matter. John Harbaugh had a quote today
and listen, the Harbaugh's can say some crazy things, like
they have been doing it for years. And Jim the
moment he got the job with the Ravens said some stuff,
(17:18):
right he or excuse me, the Chargers about Justin Herbert
being like a super he just he talks to hyper
you know, hyperbolic statements. Sometimes I think it's fair to say,
and I'm okay with that. Part of the position they're
in is hyping guys up. I mean, you had Harbass
saying that he thinks Rashad Bateman should be one of
(17:39):
the best wide receivers in the league as like a
career thirty four catches. But today, like Lamar Jackson's well established,
he's one of the best quarterbacks in the league, and
he's won multiple MVPs. He's a high end, elite player.
No one would debate that. And for John Harbaugh to
say that we plan on Lamar Jackson being the greatest
(18:02):
quarterback of all time, like that's where it's just how
does anyone take you seriously? Honestly, how about we just
focus on playing good playoff games because he is never
as long as Patrick Mahomes isn't a league gonna be
the best quarterback in the NFL. Honestly, if Joe Burrow
(18:24):
is healthy, I don't even think he's a top three guy.
Now he's won MVPs, he has great regular season I
don't really give a shit. Like after a while, once
you become the high end, top three or four guy,
you're completely judged in January, like I expect you throw
a lot of touchdowns. I expect you to win a
lot of regular season games. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers.
All the top players in my life have dominated the
(18:45):
regular season, whether you win MVPs or not. Doesn't Aaron
Rodgers have more MVPs than Tom Brady. Pretty sure that
Peyton Manning has more MVPs than Tom Brady. Like you
judged on January, how you play, and no one in
my lifetime has been better in January than Tom just
like the modern day version of Patrick Mahomes, like, no
one's more dial than that guy. And I'm sorry Lamar Jackson,
(19:08):
and listen, I'm not blaming Lamar because he didn't say
this and he's at home sick or whatever. They sent
him home from training camp. Is like John, let's just say, listen,
we're gonna do everything possible to make Lamar Jackson the
best quarterback in the league. And he's already competed to
do that. And then when it's mattered the most, he
hasn't played that well. He just hasn't. I don't think
(19:30):
there's a general manager in the league. Obviously, Mahomes if
we did the draft would go one. I don't think
there's one in the league that wouldn't take Josh Allen second.
Maybe there would be some because of the injury factor
with Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson, but there would definitely
be some people in the NFL that would take Joe
Burrow over Lamar Jackson. So like part of this when
(19:52):
you start making those comments like I can't take you
seriously and listen, I'm someone that bet on them this year,
and like the Ravens, I was fucking humbled by the
Kansassee Chiefs and one of the greatest players I've ever
seen in Patrick Mahomes humbled. So let's just pump the brakes.
Let's just focus on doing everything possible to play two
(20:14):
good playoff games in a row. And the reality is
he didn't because Lamar wasn't even good in the first
half against the Houston Texans, and just because the Ravens
were so much better than the Texans, it wasn't really
a fair fight in the second half. And then they
played the Chiefs at home, and let's face it, got embarrassed.
That was one of the most embarrassing playoff performances I
can ever remember, because they were, on paper the better team.
(20:39):
The Chiefs offense was pretty average the majority of the season,
and they were averaging that game, did not score a
point in the second half. So if you can't beat
a team, it'd be one thing. Didn't score a point
in the second half, and they scored thirty five in
the first half. They finished with seventeen points. You're at home,
big favorite, can't win the game. I'm sorry, Like i'
(21:00):
herb believe, no one wants to hear it. No one
takes you seriously when you say stuff like that. After
that performance, Let's just focus on, like what do we
need to do when a playoff game comes to beat
that guy? Hell, Joe Burrow beat that guy. I saw it.
We all did in Kansas City, remember in the AMC
Championship game, and the Bengals went to the Super Bowl
and then Burrough played pretty good and they had the
(21:21):
lead late in the game. Speaking of Joe Burrow, he's
fully cleared, and to me, they're one of the biggest
kind of just curveballs from last season that like, if
he's fully healthy and he plays seventeen games, they're a
major problem, period, point blank. In the story. Now, I'm
a little unsure. I'm not a doctor. Didn't go to
(21:41):
medical school, was there for more than four years, but
it was because I was screwing around but you read
about that injury, you just never know. We have to
see if he has any information during training camp if
he's fully healthy. If Joe Burrow can play seventeen games
fully healthy, they're gonna be good. That's where they're at
as a franchise, right, Like if you get that guy Boom.
(22:03):
It's like in the NBA, if you give me one
of the top five or six guys, I'm boom fifty wins,
you know, in his prime, like you're in the playoffs.
That's the way it works. And to me, Joe Burrow
has proven when he's healthy, they can dominate on offense,
and they have a good coaching staff, right, so I
(22:23):
think him during training camp, to me, is one of
the bigger question marks of just like does he ever
have to miss a practice? Is it one of those
like three on one off? I mean technically that's how
these training camp practices are anyway, because there's no double days,
but in terms of like an actual practice, and they
give it to them off because of the injury, right
(22:44):
and because they're just like listen, we're not trying to
push too artists. It's just something to monitor. I'm rooting
for him to play because I mean, obviously I like
and I'm rooting for him. You know, I want to
see the guy that we saw last year against the
forty nine ers. The league is better when all their
players are at the highest level, and the league is
lucky right now, mahomes peak of his powers, all time
(23:04):
great Josh Allen, one of the most talented guys we've
ever seen, Lamar Jackson, you know, probably the best running
quarterback ever. Steve Young, by the time he won a
Super Bowl, was much more of a pocket quarterback. But
he's you know, he's already got two MVPs. Obviously, Burrow
Herbert now with Harbaugh, I mean we are to transition.
(23:27):
Rogers has a year or two left. But to go
from Manning, Brady and Rodgers to now have this crew
league should feel pretty good because these guys are showstoppers.
They're Courtney Cronin, who has covered NFL teams. She covers
(23:48):
the Bears now I think she used to cover the Vikings.
I think she's originally from the Bay I've followed her
forever on social media. Had this tweet the other day
and it was from Keenan Allen. I think it was
at his press conference and He talked about staying at
the same hotel with Caleb Williams during mini camp because
(24:08):
in making sure that he spent a lot of time
with him, basically because he doesn't learn from just going
back to his room and studying the playbook. He said,
I won't pick it up that way. That's not the
way I learned. So we spent constant time, him drilling
me and going over plays and me going back and
that's how I am able to take in the information.
(24:31):
And it struck me and it has for a long
time that no one in the NFL sustains a high
level of play on Sundays randomly. Your god given gifts,
which all these guys have, can get you by early
on in your career, definitely gets you by in college
and maybe for a year or two in the NFL,
(24:53):
but to sustain it for five eight a decade. The
level of focus, the level of work ethic, and the
level of attention to detail of your craft. I was
I was on the golf course last week. I was
telling them about my time in Philly and just the
level of hours in which you spend at the facility
(25:13):
as a scout, obviously as a coach, but even as
a player. And I think I've always said it's the
NFL is Wall Street on grass. I mean, you're just
you're talking fifteen eighteen hour work days, long long falls.
It's a grind, and you better buckle that, you know
what up because it is. It's mentally taxing, and for
(25:36):
players it's mentally and physically taxing. You could argue for
coaches as well, because you know the lack of sleep,
the thrown off workout schedules, You're just you're out of it.
You better have a lot of cold brew, maybe an
adderall prescription, and just figure out a way to get
by because it's hard. And that's why we always talk
(25:56):
about with players why you have to love it. You
have to be addicted to it, because there's no way
to spend the amount of time that it takes without
really liking what you do. It's my number one level
or advice to any younger person. Fine and listen, I'm
not alone on this. I can just speak from my
own experience that if I did something for a living
(26:20):
that I did not like to do, I could not
spend the time in which I spend on that thing.
It wouldn't be possible. I would not care. I would
mail it in constantly. When you find what you like
to do, like truly passion deep in your soul, it's
easier to work because you can work long days and
it doesn't feel like you're working. And Keenan Allen, like
(26:43):
there was a reason he went in the third round.
He's not very fast. Guess what, He's slower now than
he was back then. But when you think Keenan Allen,
you go, God, he's one of the smartest players in
the league. Knows how to get open. Obviously he's tough,
and obviously he's skilled, but it's because of the mental
work ethic that it takes to play at a high level.
(27:07):
And I think, listen, there are countless players all over
the NFL that grind and you're just not gonna be good.
I mean, look at some of the best players in
recent memory that have retired. You go, does that guy
love football? If you had to do one to ten,
ten being the most and one being basically doesn't like it.
Like Aaron Donald, what number would you choose? Jason Kelcey,
(27:30):
what number would you choose? Tom Brady, what number would
you choose? Let's be real, the three guys I just
listed ten out of ten would feel low, Like Tom's
like fifty out of ten, Donald's like forty five out
of ten. Kelsey's right there too, And that's what it takes.
That's what it takes. It's why during the draft that
(27:51):
these uncomfortable conversations, the media is like, that's not fair.
They deserve to have a balance life. Well, yeah, sure,
as a guy making one hundred grand can have a
balanced life, and that is fair. Your expectations are different
when you get paid ten million dollars, twenty million dollars,
thirty million dollars. I don't care what you do. If
Google's paying you twenty five million dollars, what do you
(28:13):
think their expectations are gonna be for you? If Goldman
Sachs is paying you thirteen million dollars, you think it's like,
oh yeah, just nine to five and three day weekends
whenever you want. That's not the way the world works.
So yeah, it's very serious, and that's what a lot
of the great players they give it right back. It's
why when these guys retire, the way these coaches and
these general managers talk about these players like that, that's
(28:36):
the sad part about Keenan Allen with Harball just financially
didn't that up and they chose the defensive lineman. Jim
Harball would love Keenan Allen. He would love Keenan Allen,
and the Bears are lucky. That's a even if he's
only there for a year. No brainer trade. And last,
but not least, I saw this story that I thought
(28:56):
was kind of fascinating. There's got to be like seventeen
teams down in La dur in training camp, the Rams,
the Chargers, the Cowboys, and now the Raiders. But I
guess there's this rule that because it's another team's territory.
I'm not quite sure how the Cowboys get away with this,
(29:17):
and maybe they don't. They're just so big that you
naturally see people down there. The Raiders went to southern
California for this training camp. Obviously it's one hundred and
seventy five degrees in Vegas. But part of it is
they're not able to promote that they're in Los Angeles.
They're not the way that Mike Florio wrote it is,
(29:40):
they're not even able to have fans, and that seems
a little crazy to me, but I understand going and
I saw some quotes from Antonio Pierce. Listen, a lot
of teams. My only experience in the NFL was going
away to training camp. We went to Lehigh. The Eagles
no longer do that. They now practice at their facility.
(30:03):
Andy when he went to Kansas City, they still go
away to training camp. I'm a believer in going to
training camp, even though sometimes when you're there, player, coach, scout, whatever,
it can suck a little bit, but there is something
special about that bonding period as just kind of a group.
So like, I'm all for it. I just think these
rules are kind of crazy that you have to basically
(30:26):
not say anything. But a lot of teams it's not
other California. I mean this, listen, it's hard to beat
that weather because it's pretty hot otherwise. And I think
part of it too is you know the Cardinals in Scottsdale.
I mean they're technically I think south of Phoenix, but
the Vegas Raider it is so hot that even in
(30:48):
the morning, you gotta practice indoors. It's one thing like
even at Lehigh, a couple times it would rain, we
had to practice indoors. Like weird weather in the South.
But I think ideally in training camp, you want to
practice outside on the grass. You got ninety guys, you
got stations all over the place, So I get why
the Raiders go. I just think that's kind of a
(31:09):
crazy rule that clearly the Chargers and the Rams are
not exactly waving. They're like, oh yeah, it's cool, man,
you can wait. You're allowed to promote. No no, They're like, no,
not allowed. Even Mark Davis like it is what it is.
We're coming to la. Okay, let's dive into the mailbag
(31:36):
at John Middlecoff. At John Middlecoff is the Instagram and
DM's wide open. So just fire in, get your question
answered here on the show, and that's what we do.
Sorr Brendan, there are clearly different approaches that front office
takes to structuring contracts when they're a contender. The Bills
(31:56):
and Cowboys did massive backloaded contracts and are now having
to cut good players. What do you think is the
right balance between going all in with backloaded contracts to
contend now versus keeping a long term view. I'm a
Lions fan and curious how you would handle having the
amount of studs on the roster Detroit does with massive
(32:20):
contracts Looming. I got news for you. The only way
to do it is that. And the only reason we
notice is because when you're good for a long time,
you don't get rid of those players. Most crappy teams
are constantly trading, cutting and churning their roster, so even
(32:42):
when they sign players, those guys don't last long and
no one really pays attention. Well, the Bills have won
the division what four straight years, and that core group
of guys was on the team the whole time. And
when you have a quarterback, the same with the Cowboys
making a lot of money, you have three or four
Pro Bowl players, it adds up quick. So I don't
(33:04):
think they do anything different than anyone else. I really
don't look at how the Eagles structure contracts or the
forty nine ers. Everything is backloaded. Nothing is like a
three year contract and you put the salary cap space.
Now the way you actually, here's what's complicated about the NFL.
(33:25):
If I give you a three year, seventy million dollar contract,
so what's that twenty three million dollars a year? Just
for the way we're gonna put this conversation together, So
you're making twenty three million dollars a year adds up
to sixty nine million, but well it's just sixty you know,
twenty three. You guys get it, and I pay you
(33:45):
a fifty million dollars signing bonus. So I give you
three year, seventy million dollars, and I give you fifty
million dollars guaranteed, and I give it all up front
and the signing bonus. So even though you get the
cash basically within the couple weeks of signing the contract,
I would never in a million years, unless I was
a terrible team with just no good players on it,
(34:07):
not put that money back. You know, if I signed
it this offseason in two thousand and I don't know,
twenty six a large percentage of it. And that's how
all these contracts work. So I don't think the Bills
or Cowboys are alone. I think both of them had
the same scenario happen. They kept a lot of guys
and then over a three or four year period they
(34:27):
kind of had to perch. One reason the Chiefs were
able to kind of circumvent that because they would have
been in the same exact scenario what happened. They sent
Tyreek packin. Do you know much money. That saved them
a lot, and that allowed them to kind of keep
their group of players together while infusing some youth. I
(34:51):
don't know if it's true or not, but instagram saying
that Tyreek Hill has a lot of children like a
lot of children. I just don't think any any team
structures contracts any differently than now. You could argue the
Cowboys wait the longest. I can't don't. I don't follow
the Bills contracts close enough. Clearly the Cowboys go up
(35:14):
until you know the line where a lot of teams
think about the team of their division. The Eagles always
try to be proactive, hopefully it saves them five ten
million dollars a player, where the Cowboys just write it out.
It seems like the Giants are prime for and are
likely in the midst of a thirty year run of
(35:36):
futility like the Lions before Campbell arrived. I was hoping
things would turned around after Mara hired Shane instead of
one of his old cronies such as Gettleman. Hard knocks
is showing that Mara clearly is trying to influence front
office decisions regarding supposed quote unquote fan favorite one thing
(36:00):
on the word fan favorite. He's their best player, so
it's like and their offense is anemic beside him. So
I think fan favorite gets taken out of context. I
think he's just trying to say, like, this is one
of the best, most popular players we've had, and we've
had a lot of them. I think that's what he
was saying more than like just selling jerseys. Now, some
(36:24):
people might want to disagree, but that's owners don't talk
like GMS players such as Saquon and Dan Jones, even
if it may be in the best interest of the organization,
they should move on. He comes off like a trust
fund child who needs to be put in his place
by the adults. It's not a stretch to think that
(36:47):
Mara pushed for a Jones extension last year. Shane acquiesced
as it was his first real offseason as a GM,
but gave himself an out after year two. Kinda. I mean,
it's still gonna cost them some money. It's not that
they gave him ninety two million dollars guaranteed. All I
hear is everyone's like, it's two year contract. Look at
(37:08):
the contract. This year's big, but next year is not zero.
It seems Shane was determined to do what he thought
was right now, withstanding the external pressure from ownership, I
feel like successful teams I hear what you're saying. I
don't know, man, I think part of being a good
owner in football is just hiring the right guys. And
(37:30):
hiring the right guys is really hard. Like, is Robert
crab some fucking genius when it comes to football ownership?
He's obviously was an excellent businessman, and he hired Bill Belichick,
who then drafted Tom Brady and it changed their lives.
Is Jeffrey Lurie Like he invests all the money, but
(37:50):
he kind of went all in on Howie Roseman and
it was a smart move. When you hire the wrong people,
you could argue in any industry, but more so in football,
then you could argue Wall Street, construction, you name it,
because the dude hiring knows like a lot of guys.
If I own a construction company, right, there's a decent chance.
(38:14):
I'm not saying I know everything every trade, but I
bet if we just went construction owner by construction owner
in your town, in your city, like, they would have
a background in the business right and have an understanding
of certain things. That go on on a day to
day basis of their projects. I'm not saying be masters
at it. Football owners don't know a football play like
(38:39):
literally wouldn't know one play in the playbook. It's not
like they're scouts. They would have some understanding of the
money stuff, but in terms of building it, they know
nothing about it. There can't be many industries like that, Right,
you go to Wall Street, Like Steve Cohen knows a
lot about stocks, right, Warren buff It has a pretty
(39:00):
good idea about the market. Doesn't mean he knows everything,
but like one of his employees, he can have a
conversation in that employee. John Mara or Jed York or hell,
Jerry is one of the rare guys. He played college football.
Most of these guys are just rich kids. I mean, really,
the majority of owners now in the NFL are rich kids.
(39:22):
It doesn't mean they're not high level guys. Yeah, I
think John Marr is a pretty high level guy. He
has just made mistake after a mistake, and it looks
like this is going to be a mistake as well.
I would say the highers than which he made in
Joe Shane and Brian day Ball made a lot more
sense than his previous hires. But I say it's all
(39:44):
the time with coordinator. Just because you're a great coordinator
does not mean you're gonna be the next McVeigh or Shanahan.
More than likely you're gonna suck. History would show us
that most gms are gonna be over their head. It
doesn't mean they don't know football, It doesn't mean they
don't work hard. It just means like it's a really,
really difficult job. You have to balance a lot, And
(40:07):
I just think this thing's going to go down in flames.
And I don't think it's John Morris's fault because even
though he said fan Forever, he didn't mandate that they
resigned him. I think the bigger issue is they hired
what looked like two successful guys, the assistant GM from
the Bills and the offensive coordinator who had coached Josh
Allen's first four years. How could you argue those two hires.
(40:28):
Me and you might have made those hires, But once
you make those hires, kind of keep your fingers crossed.
Sometimes you just hire like Andy Reid, who's like a
tight end coach run game coordinator for the Packers in
ninety eight hope and then he becomes Andy Reid. But
I bet there were other coaches hired that coaching cycle
(40:50):
that all of a sudden, it's like, but this guy
was working for Bill Parcells. So you just never know.
And I you obviously take the most educated guess you
can take of Like, listen, these guys got a long resume.
He has been a lot of different places. This guy
helped draft these five players. This coordinator was excellent working
(41:12):
with these two quarterbacks. But you never know because the
job you just it's so different. It's so different. Even
as a coordinator, right, Like I say it all the time,
you don't have to worry about the other side of
the ball. You don't have to manage the defensive coaches.
Sometimes you don't even have to manage the own coaches
on your side of the ball because the head coach
(41:33):
is doing. Man, what's up, big fan here from Mexi, Cali, Baja, California.
A question for your mail bag. If you had to
bet the Chargers are gonna win a ring in ten
years with hardball, you take yes or no bonus question
in and out or five guys. I never understand the
hate on in and out. I would consider myself a
(41:55):
cheeseburger connoisseur, and I think In and Out is elite.
I think it's elite. Now if you want to quibble
with the fries, I get it. Fries leave a little
something to be desired, though I don't mind them. And
I got fat because all I've been doing is drinking
and eating for the last two weeks, and my only
workouts have been walks and swimming in the beach. So
(42:17):
but when I'm trying to be healthy, I try to
avoid the French fries. The other thing that In and
Out I think does such a great job of that.
Really nowhere else does is they don't outthink the room.
They're just so simple. You got three or four options, honestly,
like their curveball is a protein burger or animal style fries.
(42:39):
But it's one of It's not the biggest business because
of like Google and Facebook and Apple or headquarters in
California for how long who knows. But In and Out's
easily one of the best run businesses on the West Coast,
and I don't think these other places can say that.
So five guys good. I personally prefer Shake Shack over
(43:04):
five guys. But the problem with shakeshack for us. You know,
if you're watching your weight, it's just hard to go
shake shack, not gonna miokscheck with your cheeburger, and that's
just a fat move. As the older you get, it's
one thing you know when you're young, but the older
you get and you know, the metabolism slows. That's a
gut bomb waiting to happen. Your question on the Chargers,
(43:25):
I think that, Uh, I guess I would just bet yes.
I guess I would just bet yes if Pete Carroll
can win a national championship and a Super Bowl. Jim
Harbaugh cana as well. And I think the Chargers I
think nine to ten wins this year. I guess by
the time we get there, we'll have to see how
(43:47):
injuries happen during training camp. But I think I'm probably
gonna pick them to be the six or seventh wildcard
team just because I bet on Jim Harbaugh. And one
thing I've learned since doing this podcast with takes and predictions,
it's hard to go wrong betting on high end coaches.
Where you get burned is betting on question marks as
(44:08):
the coach. It truly is like last year, bet on
Dennis Allen in the Saints and I got burned. I've
bet on the Chargers over the years with like Anthony
Lynn and Mike McCoy and Brandis Staley just because their
roster I thought was so good, and then you get burned.
So when you bet on the Harbob Brothers, Kyle McVeigh
(44:29):
now Dan Campbell. That's why if you want to bet
on Sean Payton, I wouldn't argue with you. You're usually
proven right more than wrong. And I'm not talking on it,
you know, betting on an individual game. I'm just talking
over the course of a season. It's a long season,
and the cream usually rises, right, the cream usually rises,
So that's what I would expect. I mean, look at
(44:51):
the NFC playoff teams last year, Kyle Shanahan. We can
make fun of Mike McCarthy all we want, and he
deserves some criticism. Google his resume. I mean, we talk
about Mike McCarthy a little different than his resume. Looks
like he's pretty good. Obviously, his playoff resume in Dallas
leaves a little to be desired, but he's a pretty
good coach. Lafloor, right, you just go Dan Campbell, like
(45:16):
you just start going through Todd Bowles, who I'm not
sure how good he is, but that's a well run operation.
With Jason Light Sirianni, who's coaching first job. Probably again
a little like the Bucks. The Eagles are just well
run and Sirianni now he gets better assistant coaches. Maybe
it goes a little bit better. Question for the back.
(45:39):
It's election season. Here we go. If any athlete in
the past fifty years decided to run for president, who
do you think would have the best chance of winning
the White House? And why? Okay, I'll pick up a
Republican and I'll pick a Democrat. If I had to
(46:03):
pick a Republican, I would go Peyton Manning. I would say,
now here, listen. He is well liked in the media.
Once you pick that side, ninety eight percent of them
are gonna hate you, try to crush you. But I
would say he is one of the more presidential just
(46:24):
operators over the last twenty five years. He can balance
very very well being a man of the people and
also running with the elites, so he could campaign well.
He campaigned really well. I think he works like on
the West Coast, in the South, the Midwest. I think
obviously Indianapolis, I think he would just he would dominate
(46:49):
the debates. I just think he's well spoken, he's got
a personality. I think Peyton Manning as a Republican and
I think if you had to go on the other
side of the aisle, think you could have to go
like Steph Curry, democrat, smiles a lot people just like him,
just gets along with everybody. I think he'd be one
(47:09):
of those guys that would get along with a lot
of people on the other side of the aisle. Same
thing with Peyton Manning. Just good at rubbing elbows. Obviously
you would have the media behind him being on that side.
And yeah, I mean I think those two guys come
to mind pretty quickly. You know, you'd choose Peyton Manning
over Brady. I think Brady would be a little more polarizing.
(47:33):
There's just be people that just wouldn't want to like him.
I also think the work he got done, you knows,
he doesn't look just he's got a lot of work done.
You know, Peyton looks a little more natural whenever you
see him at one of these Tennessee Titans or not
Tennessee Titans games. But like Tennessee volunteer, like baseball, college
World Series, got a little gut going see even the
(47:53):
Nuggets game. He kind of looks like a normal dude,
even though he doesn't. He's huge, like he's really tall.
But I'm just saying, you know, Tom's got abs and
he's got fake hair. Peyton just looks like a guy
who's like, eat a cheeseburger night for dinner, even though
he's probably got like a chef. I mean, so does Curry.
The hard part is it probably be those two. And
(48:14):
maybe that's you know, recency biased, but those would probably
be the two I'd go to the volume
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Jason McIntyre
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