January 16, 2026 • 42 mins
John is joined by college football guru Josh Pate to preview the College Football Playoff Championship between Indiana and Miami. The guys also dive into the biggest stories in College Football outside of The National Championship Game.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
What is going On Everybody? John middlecop three Now Podcasts
brought to you by my friends at Zone Pouches. Today
we will have on Josh Pate, who was just reported
the other day the ESPN is gonna build a show
around the guy, college football up and coming star, known
him now for a couple of years. And we recorded
(00:35):
this earlier in the week because I'm probably currently at
the hospital, just grinding along as a father, no big deal,
and we talked a lot of college football, had him
on for a while. Obviously, you can see it if
you go subscribe to the podcast on Netflix. All of
our videos are now on Netflix. Go check that out.
And yesterday we had Stucky breaking down the games, diving
(00:56):
deep into the point spreads and all the different angles,
as well as the National Championship game. Have on Pate
which talking transfer portal, the craziness, signetti, a little bit
of everything college football guy, big big fan of my
bald brother Josh. So that will be the game plan
(01:17):
this weekend. I don't think we will have reaction on
Saturday nights. It's just I'll probably still be at the hospital,
so Sunday it should be go as planned. But again
you never know. It's a little out of my hands.
I'm recording this part on Wednesday, so we'll just we'll
play her by ear. Let's just say that, and hopefully
everyone is going to have a good weekend and enjoy
(01:39):
the games and we will talk soon. But if you
listen on Collins Feed, make sure you subscribe to you
the three and Out podcast, Apple, Spotify, you guys know
the trill. And let's just dive into Josh okay, very
very excited. I would say he'd be excited to come
on Netflix. But the reality is, every time I go
to the gym in the morning, it had to be
a couple of weeks ago. I look up. There's Stephen A. Smith,
(02:03):
Cameron Newton, and Josh Pate arguing about college football, and
I thought, my bald brother here. I mean, it has
to be a little bit of a pinch me moment,
Like it's pretty cool, you know, I'm just arguing with
Cam Newton about college football. Takes. This guy's had a
hell of a year from getting married to all over
the place with college football. Josh, how you doing, man.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I'm doing good. You're talking about me being the one
that's had a busy year. You're the one the other
day where I'm looking at breaking news and I'm gonna Luckily,
I already subscribe to Netflix, and you know they've they've
been showing like the advertisements for the new shows. They're
about to pop up. Am I about to see you
on one of those teaser screens? Or we're gonna have
one of those sexy Middle Cough pictures with it like
(02:44):
an animated Mike and some lightning bolts. Is it already
happening and I haven't seen it yet? What's the deal?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, They've told me to get on the pate the
gym plan and hit and pump that iron so I
get maybe hopefully in the next month, we can get
like a shirtless you know, glistening photo or something. Then
all of a sudden you're gonna see, like, you know,
some famous actor and then Middle Cough pops up. You're like,
what is going on here?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
The secret, by the way, is to structure your day
in such a way where first thing in the morning,
you're working and people say, look at him grinding. Late
at night you're working and people are saying, look at
him grinding. What they don't know is the middle of
your day is wide open. That's when you go to
the gym.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I like, you, you know, grew up loving sports talk radio. Obviously,
you know, listening to Colin and stuff. So you know, Greenberg,
Mike and Mike. Living on the West Coast, it was
a little different that they sometimes, you know, they start
so early. But when I lived in Philly and going
on with him, I would imagine, I mean, it's Mike's
i mean, an all time driver of a show. But
(03:45):
the stephen A experience and first Take. Can you just
explain that to us what that's like. I mean, obviously
you're just talking football, so it comes natural. But is
there a different mindset going into the to the belly
of the beast knowing, okay, I gotta got some takes here.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah? It. So here's the way that worked. I was
in New York a few weeks ago doing Get Up.
The Get Up studios right next to First Take. There's
literally a wall separating the two, and it was going
into the playoffs. So we had a full loaded college
football show, which in and of itself is so refreshing
that I mean, they're letting you come into ESPN those
(04:19):
big morning shows and you're just loading it with college football. Yeah,
love that, love being a part of it. So towards
the end of the show, they came over, the producers
came over and said, can you come do the first
twenty minutes a first take? So we're on a tight
travel schedule, had to work that out. I go over
there and I walk in and Ryan Clark's in there,
Orlabsky came over there with me because he had been
doing the previous show. Steven A's in there, and Shake
(04:42):
Cornett's in there, and on get up. I mean, you've
got a pretty established rundown. You sat in a production meeting.
This is a lot more on the fly. And I said,
is there anything specifically you're looking to do? They said,
just rip. We're just gonna go for twenty minutes. Don't worry,
like we'll drive it. Let's just go. John. It was
the most It was the most like my YouTube show
(05:03):
or like a talk radio format that you could possibly
imagine being on live TV. And we I think we
probably blew through a break if truth were told, and
we just went about college football and it was awesome. Now,
I will say this, there was so little time. You
didn't really have time to think about what you're doing.
You're just you walk right in the studio, they mic
(05:23):
you up. Two minutes to air, one minute to air,
thirty five four three two one, we're live. Play the bumper,
play the animations, do the teases, and we're on. But
it's so natural because you're not being asked to talk
about something that you're unfamiliar with, which is sort of
the blessing. Like I think you would probably agree with this,
it's the blessing of the modern digital media age, sort
of the on demand digital media age. Folks like me,
(05:46):
folks like you, folks like even Colin. Nowadays, you can
choose which lanes you want to live in. You don't
have to be a generalist if you don't want to
be a generalist. Now those shows cover everything. But when
you can go in there and just get a twenty
minute block of time and Steven a, I mean, he's
sitting there, that's the biggest name in sports media, and
he defers to you, and Ryan Clark sits there and
kind of defers to you and gives you plenty of
(06:08):
room to operate. It's awesome. I love it. And that's
a very very professional operation, especially from like a production standpoint.
And I say that, people may think, oh, that's duh, Yeah,
they're pros. I don't mean that. I mean, you know,
you would know this. A lot of people listening don't
know this. There's a glaring difference when you first get
into our business of the kinds of people you work
(06:29):
with in production, because you assume they're all pros and
they're not. When you're around professionals, it makes your job
so easy. It makes your job so easy from a
talent standpoint, if you want to call yourselves that. When
you got big time professionals behind the scenes producing you you.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Know the number one question I get if I'm just
out and about and someone comes up, Hey, I love
the show, start talking football. Obviously. I mean it's a
great conversation starter for me, I'm sure for you. In America,
you go anywhere someone wants to talk, they always ask
what's Colin like? What's Colin like? And obviously you know
I sing his praises. I mean, he's been incredible to
me and is down to earth and cool. I would
say the same thing for steven A. Smith. I have
(07:08):
way more dealings with Colin and been around way more.
But I've met steven A. Couple of times. One time
he had to do a radio show when I was
doing stuff in the Bay Area, and he just like BSD,
he was all done. He couldn't have been any cooler,
like he's actually I think, you know the persona and
stuff on television, and I haven't been around him a
long time, but I remember thinking he was a big
deal at the time, like this guy was just down
(07:29):
to earth. We were like bsing about Steph Curry or whatever.
But I think a lot of these guys, the perception
sometimes on online takes on something different than it actually is,
and that's just kind of the nature of the beast
that we're in now. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
The other thing that you learned back in the day,
when you had like three or four options, you were
just getting fed what you were getting fed, take it
or leave it, like it or not. In our world,
I can't stress enough how much a post on demand
world we live in where if you can see through someone,
they're dead water. From a four months or on air standpoint,
(08:02):
they're not gonna last because there are too many you
can't see through, Like Colin Cowhard for a long time,
you can't see through him because who he is on
airs who he is off air. I used to get
tricked early in the days of listening to Colin into
thinking he's just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.
This was pre hot take existing as a phrase. I
thought he was doing that when I very first listened
(08:24):
to him, this when he first got to ESPN Radio.
I came to learn over time, No, he's not doing that.
He just has a different viewpoint on the world which
overlaps with his viewpoint on sports, and because of that,
him speaking his mind is gonna sound different than most
of the crowd does. Well, then you fast forward twenty
five years, twenty years, or however long it's been since then,
I think the same thing about Stephen A. Smith, now
(08:46):
that I've been blessed enough to work with him and
like talk with him on record, talk with him off record.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yes, there's a lot of theatrical element to it. Yes
it's very flamboyant. Yes it's very in your phase. It's loud,
sometimes it's brash, but it's who he is off camera too,
so you don't see through it. It's not fake. And
so at that point I feel the same way about myself.
Although I'm nothing like him or nothing like Colin. Just
being yourself on air is the ticket.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
You know. College football is obviously something that's near and
dear to your heart you love a lot. I do
think this transactional nature of the sport over the last
three or four years has helped it out from a
popularity standpoint. More people have opinions, more people are paying attention,
even if it has kind of jumped the shark and
it's all over the place, and you know, you're talking
(09:37):
to these coaches and I would imagine over you know,
as your show has just blown up the amount of
general managers and stuff that you know now, which obviously,
I mean, they're the guys running point on a lot
of this stuff. I mean, these college When I became
a recruiting GA and eight in two thousand and eight
at Fresno State, there was not a personnel guy in
the country. It kind of started in like nine or
(09:58):
ten with Manowitz with Bama, and then it kind of
took off from there. And obviously as the Saban disciples
went now it's I mean, there are personnel departments like
the NFL. And you said last time I had you on,
keep an eye that this role is gonna be completely
different than what it is now. And there're gonna be
a lot of guys liking the NFL that when the
(10:18):
coach leaves, they run point on the on the coachings.
We're not quite there yet, but it's clear over the
next five years it is going to rapidly change because
of the power. I mean, Texas gonna have a forty
million dollar roster. I mean, these general managers, their importance.
I mean, it's just you could argue it's even more
important than the NFL because of the wild wild West
(10:39):
nature of landing a player.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Now, it's funny you mentioned Ed because I was at
the Peach Bowl last week. First person I see on
the field as Ed Mannoitz. He works at CAAA and
now he represents Pete Golding among the other guys. So
he was kind of at both games. First words out
of his mouth. Can you believe how this thing operates? Now?
And so that's Ed Taal, who was once at the
forefront of that picture. I say, a generation go, it's
(11:04):
like ten or fifteen years ago. So think about what
you said.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I mean, he still is right. He's Jimmy's right hand
man now.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Right, just on a different frontier. Yeah, so think about
what you said, because you're right. We talked about that
last time, and I remember I remember looking at some
of the comments and the feedback was, Oh, you're crazy
if you think that athletic directors are ever going to
let general managers handle coaching hires. No, it's the exact opposite.
Athletic directors are relieved beyond belief when they can hire
(11:32):
a general manager and let the general manager hire a
head coach. Like what do you think is more intimidating
and daunting an AD trying to hire an actual football
coach or an AD hiring essentially a general to then
build the army and then the general answers to him like,
of course, the further removed. A lot of these ads
(11:52):
can get from meat and potatoes football decisions the better
because they're also hiring a basketball coach, they're hiring baseball
they're an athletic directorotball director. That's the first thing. The
second thing is a lot of guys and women who
are athletic directors are ads because they happen to be
the best fundraiser around. That's not a bad thing. I
(12:13):
don't say that pejoratively. I'm saying it to list their qualifications,
and they are many, but one of them is normally
not ooh, football is in my wheelhouse. So it is.
It's a welcome change to these people to be able
to hire a general manager. And because that's the climate,
then I just think it's been a matter of time.
It's not an if, but a win. You're gonna see
head coaches get fired by a general manager with the
(12:36):
endorsement of the AD, of course, and then the GM
sticks around and he fills the building over and over again.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I want to read you a tweet from Kevin Clark
and he said, I'm on the radio with Mike Tannenbaum
and he just told me an amazing story. He was
talking to a power for head coach this week who
got a list from an agent of all his free agents.
One of the players was on his team. He hasn't
told anyone on the staff that he wants to leave
(13:04):
or even hinted at unhappiness. How often are coaches that
you talk to finding out about players that they thought
like great relationship? Are paying this guy a lot of money?
That is it? The agent? I mean, are a lot
of these guys, you know, it's not the player's idea.
You know, they're kind of doing the fake portal where
they're not in the portal, but they're definitely sniffing around.
(13:26):
What's it like out there on the streets. And I
know you this is not your favorite topic, but it, obviously,
I mean, is probably the biggest topic in college football.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, it's not a favorite topic of mine because of
the answer to the question you just asked. The answer
is everybody's dealing with that. It's frequent, it's commonplace. I
would My answer, I guess is better put this way.
I would be shocked if a coach told me they
didn't deal with any of that in a cycle. Everybody's
dealing with it. And just imagine that now, just imagine.
I know, no one like Kirby Smart has a really
(13:58):
famous saying, you can't from the yacht. No one feels
sorry for these guys. They're making ten plus million dollars
a year in some cases, I get all that. Let's
pretend they're making ten billion a year. My point in
principle still remains, and that is you're asking guys to
build a football program, and when and Kurt Signetti is
a glaring example of how vital it is to have consistency, continuity, synergy.
(14:21):
You know, a team in other words, ideally guys that
have played together multiple years. You're asking them to do
that while at the same time dealing with annual free agency.
And so you can't go down this road, John, like,
as soon as you turn down the road, the argument
becomes discombobulated and dishonest in many cases because people just
(14:42):
start shouting from fifty thousand feet and it's like, can
we just drill down on one issue at a time,
and then another issue and then another issue. But as
soon as you turn down the road of even broaching
how insane the current climate is, you got one side
that yells, you know, well, what are you against players
being paid? It's like, no, no one ever said that,
(15:02):
Nor am I against pros in the NFL being paid.
I just think that I am pro compensation and really
pro structure and governance and guidelines and an understanding day
to day what the rules are. So then the follow
up question from the other side of the aisle is Okay, well,
how are you going to enforce that? There's no answer
to that right now. I've even gone back and forth.
(15:24):
Like me personally, I've gone back and forth on what
I think the best course of action is because at
my core, like I'm a traditionalist sort of guy in
college football, I'm not totally rigid and anti change, but
I don't think all change is good. I think a
lot of the changes that have happened in college football,
even if they've temporarily led to spikes in viewership like
(15:45):
you talked about, could be to the long term detriment.
And I think my biggest problem we could talk about
playoff expansion conversation just as much as we can talk
about portal governance or like thereof and lack of a plan.
Right now, it just feels like a lot of the
folks who are in decision making positions in college athletics
treat college football like a rental car. You've driven one,
(16:07):
I've driven one. You know good and well. You take
care of a rental car far differently than you take
care of your family car, because you know the rental
is going to be dropped off in seventy two hours.
It doesn't matter what shape it's in two years from now.
For you, it's not your problem. I feel like a
lot of people treat college athletics the same way right now,
let me get what I can out of it. It's
not my problem what it looks like five years down
(16:27):
the road. And then on the other side, if you're
talking about representation, Steve Sarkijan went off on this the
other day and he was right about it, and Texas
is a beneficiary of the current model, and he was
still right about it. And he's talking about what's been
a problem for a while, and that is what does
it take to be an agent in college football? And
the answer is putting agent in your Twitter bio. That's
(16:49):
all it takes. There's no accreditation, there's no checks and balances,
there's no certification that you have to get. There are
no standardized compensation tables or anything like that. And as
a result, you've got horrific decisions being made, many times
at the behest of a player putting their faith in
(17:11):
an agent. And I'm using air quotes there in case
you're not watching the video version, and it's look, aside
from just how bad it is for the sport long term,
it's really sad for players because those players are like
they get labeled as selfish, they're just making the best
decisions they know how to make. Sometimes they got very
little guidance. They got very little. They don't have a
(17:33):
north star in many cases in their lives, and they
got adults giving them horrible advice they don't know any better.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
In many cases, Well, we're dudes, eighteen nineteen twenty. You
don't even need any money in your bank account to
make dumb decisions. I can't even imagine what it's like.
I mean, one issue I think college football has and
the is it demand Williams the quarterback at Washington, you know,
And I think Lucas, the kid that got kicked out
for targeting for Miami. Is he's part of the Wisconsin
(18:01):
transfer that became a big deal, right, getting suit or whatever.
Is Let's just take the big ten in the SEC,
which are the money drivers in terms of the conference
for the sport. Like if Lane had pulled off stealing
the kid from Washington, the quarterback like LSU's, you know,
administration wouldn't care, the SEC wouldn't care. But you know
(18:22):
in the NFL, the Jags wouldn't do that to the
forty nine ers, who wouldn't do that to the Giants
because they're all in business together, They're all under the
same umbrella. They all follow the same rules, and if
you break them, you typically get hammered. So everyone's like
kind of pulling in the same direction. Even though on
the field you're competing and trying to beat each other.
Off the field, you're all hand in hand trying to
(18:42):
get rich. That's not really the case, right the SEC,
I mean, big picture, in the playoffs and stuff, they
all benefit. But really the SEC's folks on the SEC,
the Big Ten's folks on the Big Ten. And as
long as you have kind of that, I would say, disconnect,
Like who cares. It's one thing the coaches try to
screw each other, ever, but the administrations and the presidents
(19:02):
and the commissioners, I don't think they really care if
that situation would have played out. Because like your boys
with maguire right at Texas Tech, the quarterback they just signed,
they had to give is this true, Cincinnati a million dollars?
Yes they did, so you know that, Like, you know,
(19:22):
that's a pretty big deal if you can enforce these things.
But that's the most above board thing I've ever heard
of in the transfer portal. Right, at least you're following
the contract.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I've been a proponent. I don't know how you set
this up. I'm not a lawyer. I've been a proponent of,
especially P four schools taking G five or G five
taking FCS players. I've always been a proponent of like
a compensation structure that goes back and forth. Otherwise you're
just choking off the lifeblood of the level of football
(19:52):
below you. I know no one's really thinking about that
right now, but I've been a proponent of that. So
the other thing you're talking about, I don't know how
big into conspiracy theories people are watching, but there's been
a college football slash like college athletics conspiracy theory for
a while, and it goes a little something like this,
The commissioners slash power brokers in the SEC, and the
(20:13):
Big ten would really love to form a super league
and break away from the rest of college football, and
you just keep it all for themselves. That's the conspiracy.
Well that's probably not even conspiracy theory. That's probably just true.
So the theory goes like this, they can't do it, yet.
What they need to do is they need to make
college athletics look like such a disaster. Their only recourse
(20:35):
is to break away and look out for themselves. Survival
of the fittest at that point. And look, I don't
know what validity there is to that. I will say this,
if that were to be the case, the actions that
these people are taking right now wouldn't look much different
than they do currently. So I don't know how much
validity there is to that conspiracy theory. But to take
(20:56):
it a step further, what I mean by that is
how do you fix that? How do you govern? How
do you put teeth behind your enforcement mechanism? Well, you
make sure that you're free of anti trust legislation or
anti trust penalty, which means you break away and you
form your own entity. And at that point, if LSU
is going to be in there and Washington's going to
(21:17):
be in there, that's okay. But they're going to agree
to abide by a very similar self built governance structure
like the Detroit Lions and Jacksonville Jaguars would have to
operate under. And if you don't like it, you're not
going to be a part of it. We're all going
to make plenty enough money here, we're going to work together,
and of course we don't really care what it means
for Fresno State. We really don't care what it means
(21:37):
for Washington State. Now, naturally, I hate that because I
am a fan of college football in the whole. I'm
not an SEC or a Big ten fan. It does
somewhat make sense to me if someone wants to look
objectively and say, hey, it's pretty obvious from a resource standpoint,
we got about thirty or thirty five schools operating at
a different level than the rest of the country. I
do understand that. I also understand it's cause the moves
(22:01):
you made. You can't go and poach and realign conferences
and then look back behind your shoulder and say, boy, wow,
the PAC twelve doesn't even exist anymore. Boy Wow, the
Big twelve's really lagging behind. Boy the ACC is really
lagging behind. Yes, you took all their value properties because
you could. I don't think the landscape should be such
that you could. That's kind of been my fundamental problem
(22:23):
with it.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
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(24:31):
is the wealth of Certain conferences are a lot different
than other conferences. And the sec you know you're from.
You're from Georgia originally, right is that where you're and
now you live in Nashville. I mean you're immersed in
SEC country. This. I do wonder if there's a symbolic
portion of this ticket resale market for this National Championship game. Obviously,
(24:55):
Indiana historically is a joke, but you can't parallel. Nineteen
eighty seven to now, when you can just grab players
right by players, he leaves a job, he can take
all the players with him. Not taking anything away from Signetti,
but what he's done the last couple of years would
not have been possible from a roster standpoint eight years ago.
(25:15):
It just would right right. And obviously, I mean these
I didn't know this. I mean I knew the Big
Ten had bigger schools than other, you know, universities around
the country and other conferences. But potentially people probably debate this,
but Indiana's up for the number one alumni base in
the country. And if you just do the law of averages,
if I'm producing more kids every year, the likelihood of
(25:38):
producing more rich kids is going to be higher, right,
even if it's a tiny tiny percent. And obviously Cubans involved.
Miami Private School clearly has money. And I do wonder
if you look at this, like one question, is the
SEC in trouble? Obviously they still are going to be
fine because financially they're television deal. But just in terms
(25:58):
of the big money guys, Ron Rivera GM at cal
cal has more billionaires than anyone in the any school
at Harvard included. But like most of them don't care
about cal if Ron can convince a couple of those guys, Hey,
come out with me, come come to the game. Like
I couldn't be the GM for them. You couldn't be
the GM for them and probably get calls back. But
(26:18):
maybe Ron can't. Hey, former NFL coach, they know who
Ron is. Same thing with Luck, right, And I just
wonder do you think financially that the SEC who just
you know, look at Texas Tech. They got someone that
most of the SEC schools don't have. Yeah, I'm sure
you saw that Connor Stallion's tweet about you know, the
car dealership, which was funny. You know, a lot of
(26:39):
people make fun of him, But was there any validity
to their lack of I mean, we're talking about one
hundred millionaires and billionaires funding these programs. Do you think
that's a big picture worry.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yes, I'm from the South. I live in the South.
I can tell you it's a huge worry in the South,
and even from an ex extension like college football perspective,
I would worry about that because think about disproportionately where
the If you look at a college football heat map,
you know what Atlanta looks like you know what Birmingham
looks like, New Orleans, Nashville, like Dallas, Houston. You know
(27:16):
those places are really disproportionately where the juice is for
college football interest. Well, if you're talking about the lifeblood
currently just being how much money you can give of
the sport, you're talking about laying those two maps over
each other and they don't align. That would concern me
a little bit long term. I don't think this is
long term because at the next point, I'm gonna make twofold. First,
(27:41):
you can't just rely on rich people to bankroll you
minus return on investment infinitely, just forever, that's not gonna happen.
There's still a lot of newness to this, So there's
still a lot of novelty to this, and it's a
big deal. You know, to be able to kick in
a few million and be able to get a linebacker
from Ohio State and then he keys your playoff run.
(28:02):
That's wonderful. Your school reaps the financial windfall from that
if they make the playoff, if they win conferences. But
as an investor, outside of your happiness, which is wonderful,
if that's what you value, I wish more people did
you're not really getting a return on the investment they're
asking you to give with no financial return. That is
a short term strategy. Long term strategy is to make
(28:23):
sure you have, either via collective bargaining agreement or via
anti trust exemption, a model where revenue sharing and therefore
payment to players is baked into the system instead of
this disproportionate, discombobulated Hey, look at us. We happen to
have a billionaire so we can bankroll a team. Like,
(28:43):
I don't know where in the world anyone thinks that's sustainable.
Of course, Like, if you live in Lubbock, Texas, you're
going to push back on this. You're a beneficiary of that.
I understand you're going to push back on it. I
would ask you if you can remove your red Raider
cap for just a second, ask yourself if you think
that's in the greater interest of college football. But I
know what your pushback would be. Your pushback would be,
I don't care about what the greater interest of college
(29:05):
football is because no one else making decisions cared about
Texas Tech when it came to the greater interest of
college football. We were getting left behind, we were getting
boxed out, of the whole super conference model. So this
is what we have to do. That's why it's not
a one fold answer to me, it's a multi pronged
answer because you got to address the first problem I
(29:25):
just talked about while also addressing the second problem I
just talked about.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
You know, let's use Joey McGuire as an example. Obviously,
I think he just got an extension because he was
in the playoffs. If he had gone eight and four's
he's still the coach after they spent that much money
on the roster, you know. So it's that's where I
think the pressure. Like the NFL, there's added pressure when
I buy a bunch of free agents. When we've drafted
high players, you know, before you got a longer runway.
(29:50):
These people have been complaining in college football like what
has it become, Well, it's become we're spending a lot
of money in this roster. We better win. It's why
you really Sarks a good example. They had a high
priced team this year and you felt, you know, you
could see it on his face like he was a
little on edge and he was a guy that what
they've been in the final four the last two years,
like he's had. He resurrected the program and you could
(30:13):
feel it. And if it's true, forty million dollars are
roster and let's just say they have the highest paid
roster and they'll have a pretty good idea they're near
the top. If not at the top, it's gonna be
like a win or bus here for him, right, not
not the national championship, but like he couldn't miss the playoffs.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I don't think he just needs to make the playoff.
You're talking about huge money here, okay, And you're talking
about the field being twelve teams for all we know,
it could be sixteen. But at the very least you
think it changed next year. I hope not. But it
sounds like we're at a fifty to fifty right now.
Like it sounds like the SEC and the Big ten
have to agree. Sidebar that for a second with Sark.
(30:52):
I don't think it's good enough for him to just
make the playoff. Like I hate to participate in this
kind of conversation, but you're not wrong. And with the
field being bigger than it used to be, you think
that fan base is about to look at their school
in large part because they helped it spend forty million
on a roster and say, oh good, we were one
of the twelve best teams in the country. That's not
(31:13):
forty million dollar return. Forty million dollar return is we're
a prime player for the national championship. Very at the
very least, we'd better be within reach of the national championship,
if not winning the thing. If that sounds insane, well
yeah it is. But we've long since removed adding that
label because it's just a given with the current state
of college football. But they they got arch Manning, who
(31:35):
played his best ball at the end of the year,
and then they go get Cam Coleman, who was the
number one overall rated player in the portal, big time
wide receiver talent out of Auburn wingos still there. I
don't know if you notice what they did with their
tailback room. They flushed their tailback room. Totally not bad players,
but they flushed them and brought in all the top,
well a couple of the top tailbacks in the portal.
(31:56):
So they're just re engineering critical parts of roster. They're
keeping the parts that they like. It's Texas, so they
had a lot of parts they already liked. Yeah, and
it is a go for it type year. It's Ohio
State last year, John Ohio State last year. I'm not
gonna say forty, but they had a substantial investment in
their roster. They lose to Michigan, but because the playoff's
big enough, they still find a way to back their
(32:18):
way in. They play their best ball. At the end
of the year, they win it, and so it all
paid off. But you remember what the talk was after
that Michigan game. There were people legitimately questioning whether Ryan
they should keep his job if they go one and
done in the playoffs. So that's absolutely the temperature that
will be on Sark this this fall.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I bet on Tennessee in that game, I look like
an idiot.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
But twenty three at kickoff, that was a tough, tough night,
that was brutal.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You think Lane was rooting for All miss the other day, No,
no chance, No, I no.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
There may be like individuals that he was pulling for,
but no one's going to convince me that that relationship
ended on good terms. In retrospect, I don't even know
how it could have ended on good terms unless he
just stayed, in which case he may be bitter that
he stayed. So no, no, I do not.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Do you think it's a Trinidad got a raw deal
for the Division two counting, Like, what are we doing here?
We've let so many people just let's have a good time.
Let him play one more year. I would understand if
he had been coming from even like a Fresno State
or a Boise State. You're talking about Farris State. It
really was. It felt like one of the more genuine
college football stories in a long time.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, So I try not to get wrapped up in
the story part of it because I want to make
that independent of my answer on it, because I do,
as dangerous as this is, I do try and put
myself in an NCAA decision maker's position.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, I don't even know if he had a case,
like I mean, I obviously didn't may so.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So here's where this bit me. I'll lose train of
thought if I don't answer this. I don't. I never
immersed myself in enough of the details with Trinidad. So
when I saw that ruling come down, I probably had
the same reaction you did. I just want to see
him play another year because I like watching him play.
So when I see that ruling, I'm predisposed to go
double barrel mental fingers to the NC DOUBLEA. Can't stand
(34:08):
you guys. You're in it for everything but the players,
blah blah blah. And maybe that's the case, but I
go back a few months before the season, there was
a kid who had transferred to South Carolina tailback, I believe,
and he had a waiver request into the NC Double
A and the word was it got denied and then
(34:29):
they had to reapply. I'm a little hazy on the details,
but the general message here will be sound. And it
kept on going and kept on going, and South Carolina
fans were pissed because they were thinking, how long does
it take to just review a guy's appeals process? It's
either approved or denied. But then it stretched into fall
camp and then it was torch and pitch fork and
(34:52):
NC DOUBLEA headquarters. Shame on you guys, you're detrimental to players.
And come to find out paperwork had been so admitted
wrong and so the way the proposal had to be
submitted had only been submitted late in the spring slash summer,
and the NCUBAA had actually informed South Carolina and guided
them on how to apply it properly. Well that never
(35:14):
saw the light of day. So my point is, once
you're read in on critical details, sometimes you realize, oh man,
I've been demonizing someone and I didn't even know what
I was talking about. So I've come to adopt that
approach with all these appeals requests, whether it be Pavia
or Trinidad or anyone else, I'm going to assume I
don't know the full story. I'm going to assume I
(35:35):
haven't gone through his case with a fine tooth comb.
I know what I personally want to see. I want
to see him play again, and I know the NCAA
doesn't have the best track record in court, so who knows,
maybe we will see him again. But I've tried not
to get too up in arms about that one.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Well let's just end on the natty. I think a
lot of the country is going to be rooting for Indiana.
I mean his Google Me statement and then to live
up to it over the couple of years. But just
from an on the field standpoint, obviously they haven't lost
a game, but if they win this game, to beat
Ohio State, to roll Alabama, to destroy Oregon, and then
(36:25):
beat a Miami team which is loaded with pros and
is really good, right, I mean they are really good.
It would be truly and I get it. This isn't
nineteen ninety three where he's just done this organically. It's
still one of the crazier stories in my lifetime in sports.
I truly believe that. Yeah, I know he's gonna do it.
It almost feels too good to be true. Their huge favorite.
(36:48):
I think Miami probably gets to fly a little under
the radar after kind of their weird performance against Ole
Miss because their talent is pretty immense, especially the line
of scrimmage.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
I don't know where we would find a better college
football story. I don't really know off the top of
my head who that would be. You know, someone asked
me the day, is it a Cinderella story. I don't
call it a Cinderella story. I call it an incredible story.
Cinderella to me is if he stayed at James Madison
and James.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
But if Boise State had won a national champion Roonner Peterson.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Like a legit have not like at Indiana. Just because
you haven't doesn't mean you're not tapped into massive pools
of media rights money. And you got Mark Cuban there
I'm not saying money is why they're winning this. But
you're not gonna call any Big ten or SEC team
I have not or a Cinderella.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yas the Heisman Trophy number one overall big quarterback right now.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Well, the quarterback's the key part there. Like, if I'm
gonna shoot down the Cinderella argument, you're obviously not doing
this without Fernanda Mendoza. If you just take Mendoza, they
pay two and a half million dollars for him, which
is a bargain by the way, but they still pay
two and a half million for him. That's more than
the entire payroll of most G five teams. So that's
not a have not. That's not a Cinderella. It's an
insanely good story. It's an improbable story because the thing
(37:56):
about Indiana is they don't have access to anything that
the rest of the Big Ten doesn't and the rest
of the SEC doesn't, so everyone had access to go
after these same players. Everyone is totally free to run
their operation and their program on the same principles and
value systems that Kurt Signetti does. So it's not like
there's some magic formula secret ingredient. The ingredients are the
(38:17):
same ones that have worked since the dawn of time.
If you're trying to build anything, it's just that it's
so human nature to think that you evolve beyond this
change and move beyond that. Well, yeah, maybe no one's
running the triple option offense anymore, so maybe principles of
the specific tactical way you go about the game have changed.
(38:37):
But there are some non negotiables and Signetti's just got
the audacity to lean into them, and he's just whipping
other people that thought they were good enough to overthink
the room on this stuff. So yeah, I will caution this,
please enjoy this, And I'm speaking to Indiana fans right now.
They were awesome to be around in Atlanta, by the way,
a ton of them. Unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
What was the ratio I saw it.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
It had to be fifty to one on the street.
It was you were It was like a Where's Waldo?
To find green shirts around Atlanta, I've never seen any.
It was like Sherman coming into Atlanta. That's how big
they invaded Atlanta. It was unbelievable. However, I had a conversation,
and maybe this is anecdotal, I had a conversation with
an INDIANAFM and he said to me, as great as
(39:23):
this team is, this is the least talented team Signetti
will have in his remainder of his time in Indiana.
And I said, okay, go on, what do you mean
by that? And his implication was, We're only going to
get better from here. You may get more talented from here.
Signetti will never have a better team at Indiana than
he does right now. If you guys, more than anyone
(39:44):
should know how you define team. It ain't just talent.
And so this is I don't care how long he
stays there. This is like when he was at Alabama
under Saban, those eight to nine teams, the first ones
that Saban had that made a run at titles. He
all always told the story about how special those groups were,
and he had way more talented teams come after him,
(40:05):
but there was nothing like the dynamics they had on
those first teams, because those were the last kids that
came in with a what can we do for Alabama
mentality instead of what can Alabama do for me? Mentality?
And now you'll see Indiana be a destination and they'll
still run them through the same filter they always have.
So it's not like they're going to fall off a cliff.
You will never have a dynamic from a team aspect
(40:28):
in the sport of football that's better than what they've
put on the field this year. There's I don't think
it's possible to improve from what they've done this year.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Does Miami look way better than they do just when
you're on the sideline having been around.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Oh yes, yes, it's insane. They're the best looking team
in college football. Sometimes that's a slight because you're saying
it about a team that hasn't performed.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, Miami, it's like a team you're like, they went
five and seven, But yeah, they look good.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Oh they look good though. No, Miami's line of scrimmage.
I think you're gonna hear this stat thrown around so
much this week, But they outweigh Indiana's OH line by
like or D line, like fifty pounds O line versus
D line.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
The two tackle's got to be a combined seven hundred
pounds or something. I mean, they are massive.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
And they play to their size. So that's gonna be
fun to watch. Man, Because Indiana has been so good
at getting leads on teams and making it where you
can't even use the run game. You got to throw
the ball to keep up. If Miami can weather that
early storm, or better yet, create the storm early and
they're they're able to stay balanced in their play calling,
and they're able to use that four quarter lean on
(41:28):
your approach, the law of physics says that should work. Now,
the law of physics, Indiana has to fight all year,
but it says it should work.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Imagine if I would have told young Josh Pate that
Miami beating Indiana in a national championship where they both
went through a bracket would be known as a massive
massive you know, upset. I don't think you would have
believed me fifteen to twenty years ago.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I don't even know what to say. Yeah, I don't
even know what to say.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Well, thanks man for coming on, and we'll see on.
You can be on ESPN later this week.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
I will at some point. Just you make sure you're
in the gym, and I'll make sure that you see me.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
How about that that bald head glistens and puts a
smile on my face. Man, take it easy, man, Thanks
for coming on.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
I appreciate it. Brother. The volume
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
What is going On Everybody? John middlecop three Now Podcasts
brought to you by my friends at Zone Pouches. Today
we will have on Josh Pate, who was just reported
the other day the ESPN is gonna build a show
around the guy, college football up and coming star, known
him now for a couple of years. And we recorded
(00:35):
this earlier in the week because I'm probably currently at
the hospital, just grinding along as a father, no big deal,
and we talked a lot of college football, had him
on for a while. Obviously, you can see it if
you go subscribe to the podcast on Netflix. All of
our videos are now on Netflix. Go check that out.
And yesterday we had Stucky breaking down the games, diving
(00:56):
deep into the point spreads and all the different angles,
as well as the National Championship game. Have on Pate
which talking transfer portal, the craziness, signetti, a little bit
of everything college football guy, big big fan of my
bald brother Josh. So that will be the game plan
(01:17):
this weekend. I don't think we will have reaction on
Saturday nights. It's just I'll probably still be at the hospital,
so Sunday it should be go as planned. But again
you never know. It's a little out of my hands.
I'm recording this part on Wednesday, so we'll just we'll
play her by ear. Let's just say that, and hopefully
everyone is going to have a good weekend and enjoy
(01:39):
the games and we will talk soon. But if you
listen on Collins Feed, make sure you subscribe to you
the three and Out podcast, Apple, Spotify, you guys know
the trill. And let's just dive into Josh okay, very
very excited. I would say he'd be excited to come
on Netflix. But the reality is, every time I go
to the gym in the morning, it had to be
a couple of weeks ago. I look up. There's Stephen A. Smith,
(02:03):
Cameron Newton, and Josh Pate arguing about college football, and
I thought, my bald brother here. I mean, it has
to be a little bit of a pinch me moment,
Like it's pretty cool, you know, I'm just arguing with
Cam Newton about college football. Takes. This guy's had a
hell of a year from getting married to all over
the place with college football. Josh, how you doing, man.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I'm doing good. You're talking about me being the one
that's had a busy year. You're the one the other
day where I'm looking at breaking news and I'm gonna Luckily,
I already subscribe to Netflix, and you know they've they've
been showing like the advertisements for the new shows. They're
about to pop up. Am I about to see you
on one of those teaser screens? Or we're gonna have
one of those sexy Middle Cough pictures with it like
(02:44):
an animated Mike and some lightning bolts. Is it already
happening and I haven't seen it yet? What's the deal?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, They've told me to get on the pate the
gym plan and hit and pump that iron so I
get maybe hopefully in the next month, we can get
like a shirtless you know, glistening photo or something. Then
all of a sudden you're gonna see, like, you know,
some famous actor and then Middle Cough pops up. You're like,
what is going on here?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
The secret, by the way, is to structure your day
in such a way where first thing in the morning,
you're working and people say, look at him grinding. Late
at night you're working and people are saying, look at
him grinding. What they don't know is the middle of
your day is wide open. That's when you go to
the gym.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I like, you, you know, grew up loving sports talk radio. Obviously,
you know, listening to Colin and stuff. So you know, Greenberg,
Mike and Mike. Living on the West Coast, it was
a little different that they sometimes, you know, they start
so early. But when I lived in Philly and going
on with him, I would imagine, I mean, it's Mike's
i mean, an all time driver of a show. But
(03:45):
the stephen A experience and first Take. Can you just
explain that to us what that's like. I mean, obviously
you're just talking football, so it comes natural. But is
there a different mindset going into the to the belly
of the beast knowing, okay, I gotta got some takes here.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah? It. So here's the way that worked. I was
in New York a few weeks ago doing Get Up.
The Get Up studios right next to First Take. There's
literally a wall separating the two, and it was going
into the playoffs. So we had a full loaded college
football show, which in and of itself is so refreshing
that I mean, they're letting you come into ESPN those
(04:19):
big morning shows and you're just loading it with college football. Yeah,
love that, love being a part of it. So towards
the end of the show, they came over, the producers
came over and said, can you come do the first
twenty minutes a first take? So we're on a tight
travel schedule, had to work that out. I go over
there and I walk in and Ryan Clark's in there,
Orlabsky came over there with me because he had been
doing the previous show. Steven A's in there, and Shake
(04:42):
Cornett's in there, and on get up. I mean, you've
got a pretty established rundown. You sat in a production meeting.
This is a lot more on the fly. And I said,
is there anything specifically you're looking to do? They said,
just rip. We're just gonna go for twenty minutes. Don't worry,
like we'll drive it. Let's just go. John. It was
the most It was the most like my YouTube show
(05:03):
or like a talk radio format that you could possibly
imagine being on live TV. And we I think we
probably blew through a break if truth were told, and
we just went about college football and it was awesome. Now,
I will say this, there was so little time. You
didn't really have time to think about what you're doing.
You're just you walk right in the studio, they mic
(05:23):
you up. Two minutes to air, one minute to air,
thirty five four three two one, we're live. Play the bumper,
play the animations, do the teases, and we're on. But
it's so natural because you're not being asked to talk
about something that you're unfamiliar with, which is sort of
the blessing. Like I think you would probably agree with this,
it's the blessing of the modern digital media age, sort
of the on demand digital media age. Folks like me,
(05:46):
folks like you, folks like even Colin. Nowadays, you can
choose which lanes you want to live in. You don't
have to be a generalist if you don't want to
be a generalist. Now those shows cover everything. But when
you can go in there and just get a twenty
minute block of time and Steven a, I mean, he's
sitting there, that's the biggest name in sports media, and
he defers to you, and Ryan Clark sits there and
kind of defers to you and gives you plenty of
(06:08):
room to operate. It's awesome. I love it. And that's
a very very professional operation, especially from like a production standpoint.
And I say that, people may think, oh, that's duh, Yeah,
they're pros. I don't mean that. I mean, you know,
you would know this. A lot of people listening don't
know this. There's a glaring difference when you first get
into our business of the kinds of people you work
(06:29):
with in production, because you assume they're all pros and
they're not. When you're around professionals, it makes your job
so easy. It makes your job so easy from a
talent standpoint, if you want to call yourselves that. When
you got big time professionals behind the scenes producing you you.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Know the number one question I get if I'm just
out and about and someone comes up, Hey, I love
the show, start talking football. Obviously. I mean it's a
great conversation starter for me, I'm sure for you. In America,
you go anywhere someone wants to talk, they always ask
what's Colin like? What's Colin like? And obviously you know
I sing his praises. I mean, he's been incredible to
me and is down to earth and cool. I would
say the same thing for steven A. Smith. I have
(07:08):
way more dealings with Colin and been around way more.
But I've met steven A. Couple of times. One time
he had to do a radio show when I was
doing stuff in the Bay Area, and he just like BSD,
he was all done. He couldn't have been any cooler,
like he's actually I think, you know the persona and
stuff on television, and I haven't been around him a
long time, but I remember thinking he was a big
deal at the time, like this guy was just down
(07:29):
to earth. We were like bsing about Steph Curry or whatever.
But I think a lot of these guys, the perception
sometimes on online takes on something different than it actually is,
and that's just kind of the nature of the beast
that we're in now. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
The other thing that you learned back in the day,
when you had like three or four options, you were
just getting fed what you were getting fed, take it
or leave it, like it or not. In our world,
I can't stress enough how much a post on demand
world we live in where if you can see through someone,
they're dead water. From a four months or on air standpoint,
(08:02):
they're not gonna last because there are too many you
can't see through, Like Colin Cowhard for a long time,
you can't see through him because who he is on
airs who he is off air. I used to get
tricked early in the days of listening to Colin into
thinking he's just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.
This was pre hot take existing as a phrase. I
thought he was doing that when I very first listened
(08:24):
to him, this when he first got to ESPN Radio.
I came to learn over time, No, he's not doing that.
He just has a different viewpoint on the world which
overlaps with his viewpoint on sports, and because of that,
him speaking his mind is gonna sound different than most
of the crowd does. Well, then you fast forward twenty
five years, twenty years, or however long it's been since then,
I think the same thing about Stephen A. Smith, now
(08:46):
that I've been blessed enough to work with him and
like talk with him on record, talk with him off record.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yes, there's a lot of theatrical element to it. Yes
it's very flamboyant. Yes it's very in your phase. It's loud,
sometimes it's brash, but it's who he is off camera too,
so you don't see through it. It's not fake. And
so at that point I feel the same way about myself.
Although I'm nothing like him or nothing like Colin. Just
being yourself on air is the ticket.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
You know. College football is obviously something that's near and
dear to your heart you love a lot. I do
think this transactional nature of the sport over the last
three or four years has helped it out from a
popularity standpoint. More people have opinions, more people are paying attention,
even if it has kind of jumped the shark and
it's all over the place, and you know, you're talking
(09:37):
to these coaches and I would imagine over you know,
as your show has just blown up the amount of
general managers and stuff that you know now, which obviously,
I mean, they're the guys running point on a lot
of this stuff. I mean, these college When I became
a recruiting GA and eight in two thousand and eight
at Fresno State, there was not a personnel guy in
the country. It kind of started in like nine or
(09:58):
ten with Manowitz with Bama, and then it kind of
took off from there. And obviously as the Saban disciples
went now it's I mean, there are personnel departments like
the NFL. And you said last time I had you on,
keep an eye that this role is gonna be completely
different than what it is now. And there're gonna be
a lot of guys liking the NFL that when the
(10:18):
coach leaves, they run point on the on the coachings.
We're not quite there yet, but it's clear over the
next five years it is going to rapidly change because
of the power. I mean, Texas gonna have a forty
million dollar roster. I mean, these general managers, their importance.
I mean, it's just you could argue it's even more
important than the NFL because of the wild wild West
(10:39):
nature of landing a player.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Now, it's funny you mentioned Ed because I was at
the Peach Bowl last week. First person I see on
the field as Ed Mannoitz. He works at CAAA and
now he represents Pete Golding among the other guys. So
he was kind of at both games. First words out
of his mouth. Can you believe how this thing operates? Now?
And so that's Ed Taal, who was once at the
forefront of that picture. I say, a generation go, it's
(11:04):
like ten or fifteen years ago. So think about what
you said.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I mean, he still is right. He's Jimmy's right hand
man now.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Right, just on a different frontier. Yeah, so think about
what you said, because you're right. We talked about that
last time, and I remember I remember looking at some
of the comments and the feedback was, Oh, you're crazy
if you think that athletic directors are ever going to
let general managers handle coaching hires. No, it's the exact opposite.
Athletic directors are relieved beyond belief when they can hire
(11:32):
a general manager and let the general manager hire a
head coach. Like what do you think is more intimidating
and daunting an AD trying to hire an actual football
coach or an AD hiring essentially a general to then
build the army and then the general answers to him like,
of course, the further removed. A lot of these ads
(11:52):
can get from meat and potatoes football decisions the better
because they're also hiring a basketball coach, they're hiring baseball
they're an athletic directorotball director. That's the first thing. The
second thing is a lot of guys and women who
are athletic directors are ads because they happen to be
the best fundraiser around. That's not a bad thing. I
(12:13):
don't say that pejoratively. I'm saying it to list their qualifications,
and they are many, but one of them is normally
not ooh, football is in my wheelhouse. So it is.
It's a welcome change to these people to be able
to hire a general manager. And because that's the climate,
then I just think it's been a matter of time.
It's not an if, but a win. You're gonna see
head coaches get fired by a general manager with the
(12:36):
endorsement of the AD, of course, and then the GM
sticks around and he fills the building over and over again.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I want to read you a tweet from Kevin Clark
and he said, I'm on the radio with Mike Tannenbaum
and he just told me an amazing story. He was
talking to a power for head coach this week who
got a list from an agent of all his free agents.
One of the players was on his team. He hasn't
told anyone on the staff that he wants to leave
(13:04):
or even hinted at unhappiness. How often are coaches that
you talk to finding out about players that they thought
like great relationship? Are paying this guy a lot of money?
That is it? The agent? I mean, are a lot
of these guys, you know, it's not the player's idea.
You know, they're kind of doing the fake portal where
they're not in the portal, but they're definitely sniffing around.
(13:26):
What's it like out there on the streets. And I
know you this is not your favorite topic, but it, obviously,
I mean, is probably the biggest topic in college football.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, it's not a favorite topic of mine because of
the answer to the question you just asked. The answer
is everybody's dealing with that. It's frequent, it's commonplace. I
would My answer, I guess is better put this way.
I would be shocked if a coach told me they
didn't deal with any of that in a cycle. Everybody's
dealing with it. And just imagine that now, just imagine.
I know, no one like Kirby Smart has a really
(13:58):
famous saying, you can't from the yacht. No one feels
sorry for these guys. They're making ten plus million dollars
a year in some cases, I get all that. Let's
pretend they're making ten billion a year. My point in
principle still remains, and that is you're asking guys to
build a football program, and when and Kurt Signetti is
a glaring example of how vital it is to have consistency, continuity, synergy.
(14:21):
You know, a team in other words, ideally guys that
have played together multiple years. You're asking them to do
that while at the same time dealing with annual free agency.
And so you can't go down this road, John, like,
as soon as you turn down the road, the argument
becomes discombobulated and dishonest in many cases because people just
(14:42):
start shouting from fifty thousand feet and it's like, can
we just drill down on one issue at a time,
and then another issue and then another issue. But as
soon as you turn down the road of even broaching
how insane the current climate is, you got one side
that yells, you know, well, what are you against players
being paid? It's like, no, no one ever said that,
(15:02):
Nor am I against pros in the NFL being paid.
I just think that I am pro compensation and really
pro structure and governance and guidelines and an understanding day
to day what the rules are. So then the follow
up question from the other side of the aisle is Okay, well,
how are you going to enforce that? There's no answer
to that right now. I've even gone back and forth.
(15:24):
Like me personally, I've gone back and forth on what
I think the best course of action is because at
my core, like I'm a traditionalist sort of guy in
college football, I'm not totally rigid and anti change, but
I don't think all change is good. I think a
lot of the changes that have happened in college football,
even if they've temporarily led to spikes in viewership like
(15:45):
you talked about, could be to the long term detriment.
And I think my biggest problem we could talk about
playoff expansion conversation just as much as we can talk
about portal governance or like thereof and lack of a plan.
Right now, it just feels like a lot of the
folks who are in decision making positions in college athletics
treat college football like a rental car. You've driven one,
(16:07):
I've driven one. You know good and well. You take
care of a rental car far differently than you take
care of your family car, because you know the rental
is going to be dropped off in seventy two hours.
It doesn't matter what shape it's in two years from now.
For you, it's not your problem. I feel like a
lot of people treat college athletics the same way right now,
let me get what I can out of it. It's
not my problem what it looks like five years down
(16:27):
the road. And then on the other side, if you're
talking about representation, Steve Sarkijan went off on this the
other day and he was right about it, and Texas
is a beneficiary of the current model, and he was
still right about it. And he's talking about what's been
a problem for a while, and that is what does
it take to be an agent in college football? And
the answer is putting agent in your Twitter bio. That's
(16:49):
all it takes. There's no accreditation, there's no checks and balances,
there's no certification that you have to get. There are
no standardized compensation tables or anything like that. And as
a result, you've got horrific decisions being made, many times
at the behest of a player putting their faith in
(17:11):
an agent. And I'm using air quotes there in case
you're not watching the video version, and it's look, aside
from just how bad it is for the sport long term,
it's really sad for players because those players are like
they get labeled as selfish, they're just making the best
decisions they know how to make. Sometimes they got very
little guidance. They got very little. They don't have a
(17:33):
north star in many cases in their lives, and they
got adults giving them horrible advice they don't know any better.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
In many cases, Well, we're dudes, eighteen nineteen twenty. You
don't even need any money in your bank account to
make dumb decisions. I can't even imagine what it's like.
I mean, one issue I think college football has and
the is it demand Williams the quarterback at Washington, you know,
And I think Lucas, the kid that got kicked out
for targeting for Miami. Is he's part of the Wisconsin
(18:01):
transfer that became a big deal, right, getting suit or whatever.
Is Let's just take the big ten in the SEC,
which are the money drivers in terms of the conference
for the sport. Like if Lane had pulled off stealing
the kid from Washington, the quarterback like LSU's, you know,
administration wouldn't care, the SEC wouldn't care. But you know
(18:22):
in the NFL, the Jags wouldn't do that to the
forty nine ers, who wouldn't do that to the Giants
because they're all in business together, They're all under the
same umbrella. They all follow the same rules, and if
you break them, you typically get hammered. So everyone's like
kind of pulling in the same direction. Even though on
the field you're competing and trying to beat each other.
Off the field, you're all hand in hand trying to
(18:42):
get rich. That's not really the case, right the SEC,
I mean, big picture, in the playoffs and stuff, they
all benefit. But really the SEC's folks on the SEC,
the Big Ten's folks on the Big Ten. And as
long as you have kind of that, I would say, disconnect,
Like who cares. It's one thing the coaches try to
screw each other, ever, but the administrations and the presidents
(19:02):
and the commissioners, I don't think they really care if
that situation would have played out. Because like your boys
with maguire right at Texas Tech, the quarterback they just signed,
they had to give is this true, Cincinnati a million dollars?
Yes they did, so you know that, Like, you know,
(19:22):
that's a pretty big deal if you can enforce these things.
But that's the most above board thing I've ever heard
of in the transfer portal. Right, at least you're following
the contract.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I've been a proponent. I don't know how you set
this up. I'm not a lawyer. I've been a proponent of,
especially P four schools taking G five or G five
taking FCS players. I've always been a proponent of like
a compensation structure that goes back and forth. Otherwise you're
just choking off the lifeblood of the level of football
(19:52):
below you. I know no one's really thinking about that
right now, but I've been a proponent of that. So
the other thing you're talking about, I don't know how
big into conspiracy theories people are watching, but there's been
a college football slash like college athletics conspiracy theory for
a while, and it goes a little something like this,
The commissioners slash power brokers in the SEC, and the
(20:13):
Big ten would really love to form a super league
and break away from the rest of college football, and
you just keep it all for themselves. That's the conspiracy.
Well that's probably not even conspiracy theory. That's probably just true.
So the theory goes like this, they can't do it, yet.
What they need to do is they need to make
college athletics look like such a disaster. Their only recourse
(20:35):
is to break away and look out for themselves. Survival
of the fittest at that point. And look, I don't
know what validity there is to that. I will say this,
if that were to be the case, the actions that
these people are taking right now wouldn't look much different
than they do currently. So I don't know how much
validity there is to that conspiracy theory. But to take
(20:56):
it a step further, what I mean by that is
how do you fix that? How do you govern? How
do you put teeth behind your enforcement mechanism? Well, you
make sure that you're free of anti trust legislation or
anti trust penalty, which means you break away and you
form your own entity. And at that point, if LSU
is going to be in there and Washington's going to
(21:17):
be in there, that's okay. But they're going to agree
to abide by a very similar self built governance structure
like the Detroit Lions and Jacksonville Jaguars would have to
operate under. And if you don't like it, you're not
going to be a part of it. We're all going
to make plenty enough money here, we're going to work together,
and of course we don't really care what it means
for Fresno State. We really don't care what it means
(21:37):
for Washington State. Now, naturally, I hate that because I
am a fan of college football in the whole. I'm
not an SEC or a Big ten fan. It does
somewhat make sense to me if someone wants to look
objectively and say, hey, it's pretty obvious from a resource standpoint,
we got about thirty or thirty five schools operating at
a different level than the rest of the country. I
do understand that. I also understand it's cause the moves
(22:01):
you made. You can't go and poach and realign conferences
and then look back behind your shoulder and say, boy, wow,
the PAC twelve doesn't even exist anymore. Boy Wow, the
Big twelve's really lagging behind. Boy the ACC is really
lagging behind. Yes, you took all their value properties because
you could. I don't think the landscape should be such
that you could. That's kind of been my fundamental problem
(22:23):
with it.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
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(24:31):
is the wealth of Certain conferences are a lot different
than other conferences. And the sec you know you're from.
You're from Georgia originally, right is that where you're and
now you live in Nashville. I mean you're immersed in
SEC country. This. I do wonder if there's a symbolic
portion of this ticket resale market for this National Championship game. Obviously,
(24:55):
Indiana historically is a joke, but you can't parallel. Nineteen
eighty seven to now, when you can just grab players
right by players, he leaves a job, he can take
all the players with him. Not taking anything away from Signetti,
but what he's done the last couple of years would
not have been possible from a roster standpoint eight years ago.
(25:15):
It just would right right. And obviously, I mean these
I didn't know this. I mean I knew the Big
Ten had bigger schools than other, you know, universities around
the country and other conferences. But potentially people probably debate this,
but Indiana's up for the number one alumni base in
the country. And if you just do the law of averages,
if I'm producing more kids every year, the likelihood of
(25:38):
producing more rich kids is going to be higher, right,
even if it's a tiny tiny percent. And obviously Cubans involved.
Miami Private School clearly has money. And I do wonder
if you look at this, like one question, is the
SEC in trouble? Obviously they still are going to be
fine because financially they're television deal. But just in terms
(25:58):
of the big money guys, Ron Rivera GM at cal
cal has more billionaires than anyone in the any school
at Harvard included. But like most of them don't care
about cal if Ron can convince a couple of those guys, Hey,
come out with me, come come to the game. Like
I couldn't be the GM for them. You couldn't be
the GM for them and probably get calls back. But
(26:18):
maybe Ron can't. Hey, former NFL coach, they know who
Ron is. Same thing with Luck, right, And I just
wonder do you think financially that the SEC who just
you know, look at Texas Tech. They got someone that
most of the SEC schools don't have. Yeah, I'm sure
you saw that Connor Stallion's tweet about you know, the
car dealership, which was funny. You know, a lot of
(26:39):
people make fun of him, But was there any validity
to their lack of I mean, we're talking about one
hundred millionaires and billionaires funding these programs. Do you think
that's a big picture worry.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yes, I'm from the South. I live in the South.
I can tell you it's a huge worry in the South,
and even from an ex extension like college football perspective,
I would worry about that because think about disproportionately where
the If you look at a college football heat map,
you know what Atlanta looks like you know what Birmingham
looks like, New Orleans, Nashville, like Dallas, Houston. You know
(27:16):
those places are really disproportionately where the juice is for
college football interest. Well, if you're talking about the lifeblood
currently just being how much money you can give of
the sport, you're talking about laying those two maps over
each other and they don't align. That would concern me
a little bit long term. I don't think this is
long term because at the next point, I'm gonna make twofold. First,
(27:41):
you can't just rely on rich people to bankroll you
minus return on investment infinitely, just forever, that's not gonna happen.
There's still a lot of newness to this, So there's
still a lot of novelty to this, and it's a
big deal. You know, to be able to kick in
a few million and be able to get a linebacker
from Ohio State and then he keys your playoff run.
(28:02):
That's wonderful. Your school reaps the financial windfall from that
if they make the playoff, if they win conferences. But
as an investor, outside of your happiness, which is wonderful,
if that's what you value, I wish more people did
you're not really getting a return on the investment they're
asking you to give with no financial return. That is
a short term strategy. Long term strategy is to make
(28:23):
sure you have, either via collective bargaining agreement or via
anti trust exemption, a model where revenue sharing and therefore
payment to players is baked into the system instead of
this disproportionate, discombobulated Hey, look at us. We happen to
have a billionaire so we can bankroll a team. Like,
(28:43):
I don't know where in the world anyone thinks that's sustainable.
Of course, Like, if you live in Lubbock, Texas, you're
going to push back on this. You're a beneficiary of that.
I understand you're going to push back on it. I
would ask you if you can remove your red Raider
cap for just a second, ask yourself if you think
that's in the greater interest of college football. But I
know what your pushback would be. Your pushback would be,
I don't care about what the greater interest of college
(29:05):
football is because no one else making decisions cared about
Texas Tech when it came to the greater interest of
college football. We were getting left behind, we were getting
boxed out, of the whole super conference model. So this
is what we have to do. That's why it's not
a one fold answer to me, it's a multi pronged
answer because you got to address the first problem I
(29:25):
just talked about while also addressing the second problem I
just talked about.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
You know, let's use Joey McGuire as an example. Obviously,
I think he just got an extension because he was
in the playoffs. If he had gone eight and four's
he's still the coach after they spent that much money
on the roster, you know. So it's that's where I
think the pressure. Like the NFL, there's added pressure when
I buy a bunch of free agents. When we've drafted
high players, you know, before you got a longer runway.
(29:50):
These people have been complaining in college football like what
has it become, Well, it's become we're spending a lot
of money in this roster. We better win. It's why
you really Sarks a good example. They had a high
priced team this year and you felt, you know, you
could see it on his face like he was a
little on edge and he was a guy that what
they've been in the final four the last two years,
like he's had. He resurrected the program and you could
(30:13):
feel it. And if it's true, forty million dollars are
roster and let's just say they have the highest paid
roster and they'll have a pretty good idea they're near
the top. If not at the top, it's gonna be
like a win or bus here for him, right, not
not the national championship, but like he couldn't miss the playoffs.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I don't think he just needs to make the playoff.
You're talking about huge money here, okay, And you're talking
about the field being twelve teams for all we know,
it could be sixteen. But at the very least you
think it changed next year. I hope not. But it
sounds like we're at a fifty to fifty right now.
Like it sounds like the SEC and the Big ten
have to agree. Sidebar that for a second with Sark.
(30:52):
I don't think it's good enough for him to just
make the playoff. Like I hate to participate in this
kind of conversation, but you're not wrong. And with the
field being bigger than it used to be, you think
that fan base is about to look at their school
in large part because they helped it spend forty million
on a roster and say, oh good, we were one
of the twelve best teams in the country. That's not
(31:13):
forty million dollar return. Forty million dollar return is we're
a prime player for the national championship. Very at the
very least, we'd better be within reach of the national championship,
if not winning the thing. If that sounds insane, well
yeah it is. But we've long since removed adding that
label because it's just a given with the current state
of college football. But they they got arch Manning, who
(31:35):
played his best ball at the end of the year,
and then they go get Cam Coleman, who was the
number one overall rated player in the portal, big time
wide receiver talent out of Auburn wingos still there. I
don't know if you notice what they did with their
tailback room. They flushed their tailback room. Totally not bad players,
but they flushed them and brought in all the top,
well a couple of the top tailbacks in the portal.
(31:56):
So they're just re engineering critical parts of roster. They're
keeping the parts that they like. It's Texas, so they
had a lot of parts they already liked. Yeah, and
it is a go for it type year. It's Ohio
State last year, John Ohio State last year. I'm not
gonna say forty, but they had a substantial investment in
their roster. They lose to Michigan, but because the playoff's
big enough, they still find a way to back their
(32:18):
way in. They play their best ball. At the end
of the year, they win it, and so it all
paid off. But you remember what the talk was after
that Michigan game. There were people legitimately questioning whether Ryan
they should keep his job if they go one and
done in the playoffs. So that's absolutely the temperature that
will be on Sark this this fall.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I bet on Tennessee in that game, I look like
an idiot.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
But twenty three at kickoff, that was a tough, tough night,
that was brutal.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You think Lane was rooting for All miss the other day, No,
no chance, No, I no.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
There may be like individuals that he was pulling for,
but no one's going to convince me that that relationship
ended on good terms. In retrospect, I don't even know
how it could have ended on good terms unless he
just stayed, in which case he may be bitter that
he stayed. So no, no, I do not.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Do you think it's a Trinidad got a raw deal
for the Division two counting, Like, what are we doing here?
We've let so many people just let's have a good time.
Let him play one more year. I would understand if
he had been coming from even like a Fresno State
or a Boise State. You're talking about Farris State. It
really was. It felt like one of the more genuine
college football stories in a long time.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, So I try not to get wrapped up in
the story part of it because I want to make
that independent of my answer on it, because I do,
as dangerous as this is, I do try and put
myself in an NCAA decision maker's position.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, I don't even know if he had a case,
like I mean, I obviously didn't may so.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So here's where this bit me. I'll lose train of
thought if I don't answer this. I don't. I never
immersed myself in enough of the details with Trinidad. So
when I saw that ruling come down, I probably had
the same reaction you did. I just want to see
him play another year because I like watching him play.
So when I see that ruling, I'm predisposed to go
double barrel mental fingers to the NC DOUBLEA. Can't stand
(34:08):
you guys. You're in it for everything but the players,
blah blah blah. And maybe that's the case, but I
go back a few months before the season, there was
a kid who had transferred to South Carolina tailback, I believe,
and he had a waiver request into the NC Double
A and the word was it got denied and then
(34:29):
they had to reapply. I'm a little hazy on the details,
but the general message here will be sound. And it
kept on going and kept on going, and South Carolina
fans were pissed because they were thinking, how long does
it take to just review a guy's appeals process? It's
either approved or denied. But then it stretched into fall
camp and then it was torch and pitch fork and
(34:52):
NC DOUBLEA headquarters. Shame on you guys, you're detrimental to players.
And come to find out paperwork had been so admitted
wrong and so the way the proposal had to be
submitted had only been submitted late in the spring slash summer,
and the NCUBAA had actually informed South Carolina and guided
them on how to apply it properly. Well that never
(35:14):
saw the light of day. So my point is, once
you're read in on critical details, sometimes you realize, oh man,
I've been demonizing someone and I didn't even know what
I was talking about. So I've come to adopt that
approach with all these appeals requests, whether it be Pavia
or Trinidad or anyone else, I'm going to assume I
don't know the full story. I'm going to assume I
(35:35):
haven't gone through his case with a fine tooth comb.
I know what I personally want to see. I want
to see him play again, and I know the NCAA
doesn't have the best track record in court, so who knows,
maybe we will see him again. But I've tried not
to get too up in arms about that one.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Well let's just end on the natty. I think a
lot of the country is going to be rooting for Indiana.
I mean his Google Me statement and then to live
up to it over the couple of years. But just
from an on the field standpoint, obviously they haven't lost
a game, but if they win this game, to beat
Ohio State, to roll Alabama, to destroy Oregon, and then
(36:25):
beat a Miami team which is loaded with pros and
is really good, right, I mean they are really good.
It would be truly and I get it. This isn't
nineteen ninety three where he's just done this organically. It's
still one of the crazier stories in my lifetime in sports.
I truly believe that. Yeah, I know he's gonna do it.
It almost feels too good to be true. Their huge favorite.
(36:48):
I think Miami probably gets to fly a little under
the radar after kind of their weird performance against Ole
Miss because their talent is pretty immense, especially the line
of scrimmage.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
I don't know where we would find a better college
football story. I don't really know off the top of
my head who that would be. You know, someone asked
me the day, is it a Cinderella story. I don't
call it a Cinderella story. I call it an incredible story.
Cinderella to me is if he stayed at James Madison
and James.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
But if Boise State had won a national champion Roonner Peterson.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Like a legit have not like at Indiana. Just because
you haven't doesn't mean you're not tapped into massive pools
of media rights money. And you got Mark Cuban there
I'm not saying money is why they're winning this. But
you're not gonna call any Big ten or SEC team
I have not or a Cinderella.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yas the Heisman Trophy number one overall big quarterback right now.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Well, the quarterback's the key part there. Like, if I'm
gonna shoot down the Cinderella argument, you're obviously not doing
this without Fernanda Mendoza. If you just take Mendoza, they
pay two and a half million dollars for him, which
is a bargain by the way, but they still pay
two and a half million for him. That's more than
the entire payroll of most G five teams. So that's
not a have not. That's not a Cinderella. It's an
insanely good story. It's an improbable story because the thing
(37:56):
about Indiana is they don't have access to anything that
the rest of the Big Ten doesn't and the rest
of the SEC doesn't, so everyone had access to go
after these same players. Everyone is totally free to run
their operation and their program on the same principles and
value systems that Kurt Signetti does. So it's not like
there's some magic formula secret ingredient. The ingredients are the
(38:17):
same ones that have worked since the dawn of time.
If you're trying to build anything, it's just that it's
so human nature to think that you evolve beyond this
change and move beyond that. Well, yeah, maybe no one's
running the triple option offense anymore, so maybe principles of
the specific tactical way you go about the game have changed.
(38:37):
But there are some non negotiables and Signetti's just got
the audacity to lean into them, and he's just whipping
other people that thought they were good enough to overthink
the room on this stuff. So yeah, I will caution this,
please enjoy this, And I'm speaking to Indiana fans right now.
They were awesome to be around in Atlanta, by the way,
a ton of them. Unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
What was the ratio I saw it.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
It had to be fifty to one on the street.
It was you were It was like a Where's Waldo?
To find green shirts around Atlanta, I've never seen any.
It was like Sherman coming into Atlanta. That's how big
they invaded Atlanta. It was unbelievable. However, I had a conversation,
and maybe this is anecdotal, I had a conversation with
an INDIANAFM and he said to me, as great as
(39:23):
this team is, this is the least talented team Signetti
will have in his remainder of his time in Indiana.
And I said, okay, go on, what do you mean
by that? And his implication was, We're only going to
get better from here. You may get more talented from here.
Signetti will never have a better team at Indiana than
he does right now. If you guys, more than anyone
(39:44):
should know how you define team. It ain't just talent.
And so this is I don't care how long he
stays there. This is like when he was at Alabama
under Saban, those eight to nine teams, the first ones
that Saban had that made a run at titles. He
all always told the story about how special those groups were,
and he had way more talented teams come after him,
(40:05):
but there was nothing like the dynamics they had on
those first teams, because those were the last kids that
came in with a what can we do for Alabama
mentality instead of what can Alabama do for me? Mentality?
And now you'll see Indiana be a destination and they'll
still run them through the same filter they always have.
So it's not like they're going to fall off a cliff.
You will never have a dynamic from a team aspect
(40:28):
in the sport of football that's better than what they've
put on the field this year. There's I don't think
it's possible to improve from what they've done this year.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Does Miami look way better than they do just when
you're on the sideline having been around.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Oh yes, yes, it's insane. They're the best looking team
in college football. Sometimes that's a slight because you're saying
it about a team that hasn't performed.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, Miami, it's like a team you're like, they went
five and seven, But yeah, they look good.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Oh they look good though. No, Miami's line of scrimmage.
I think you're gonna hear this stat thrown around so
much this week, But they outweigh Indiana's OH line by
like or D line, like fifty pounds O line versus
D line.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
The two tackle's got to be a combined seven hundred
pounds or something. I mean, they are massive.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
And they play to their size. So that's gonna be
fun to watch. Man, Because Indiana has been so good
at getting leads on teams and making it where you
can't even use the run game. You got to throw
the ball to keep up. If Miami can weather that
early storm, or better yet, create the storm early and
they're they're able to stay balanced in their play calling,
and they're able to use that four quarter lean on
(41:28):
your approach, the law of physics says that should work. Now,
the law of physics, Indiana has to fight all year,
but it says it should work.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Imagine if I would have told young Josh Pate that
Miami beating Indiana in a national championship where they both
went through a bracket would be known as a massive
massive you know, upset. I don't think you would have
believed me fifteen to twenty years ago.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I don't even know what to say. Yeah, I don't
even know what to say.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Well, thanks man for coming on, and we'll see on.
You can be on ESPN later this week.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
I will at some point. Just you make sure you're
in the gym, and I'll make sure that you see me.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
How about that that bald head glistens and puts a
smile on my face. Man, take it easy, man, Thanks
for coming on.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
I appreciate it. Brother. The volume
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Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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