3 & Out - NFL vs NBA Draft Mindset, Burrow & Bengals Outlook, Bucs Steal & Mailbag - The Herd with Colin Cowherd

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume. What is going on? My people? How are
we doing? I'm John Middlecoff maybe my full name, and

(00:21):
this three and Out podcast. Today we're gonna talk some
sports because that's what we do here. And I was
watching Victor wm bin Yama last night. It got me
thinking about the draft and young players, so we'll dive
into that. Joe Burrow had some comments, Jason light on
how they landed or Ruben Bayin really fell into their
lap and how that kind of transpired. We'll talk Green

(00:43):
Bay Packers, their GM had some comments, and uh, we'll
probably do a big mailbag because I got a lot
of mailbag questions and I'm gonna need a lot of
you guys throughout the off season. So the easiest way
to interact with the show is just firing those dms
at John Middlecoff. At John Middlecoff is the Instagram wide open,
fire in them and get them answered here on the show.

(01:04):
So again, it's just my name on Instagram, dms wide open,
get involved, and I'm gonna try to answer as many
questions over the course the next couple months as humanly possible.
But you guys know the drill. If you listen to
Collins feed. Make sure you subscribe to three and Out
and if you want to watch us, run a little
place called Netflix and you can set the alerts and

(01:25):
you never miss an episode. So let's just dive into
the show. But Victor Wembiyama, you know, in basketball more
than football, because in football all the time you have Yeah,
I don't follow I used to follow high school recruiting
much more closely. I pay attention to it now when
I'm watching college football and they say, oh, this guy

(01:48):
was a five star, or it's like, hey, this guy's
an All American. Now he was an under the under
the radar three star, right, or this guy transferred, you know,
Fernando Mendoza went to cal His other offer I think
was to Harbor Yale. You know, I wouldn't say Ohio
State and Alabama were beating down the door for services.
Or in basketball, you hear about prospects like AJ Debonsa,

(02:09):
Victor wembin Yama, Zion Williams, And I was watching Zion
Williamson clips on was it Vine or definitely Instagram? He
had highlight reels made when he was like fifteen, sixteen
years old. So the hype on basketball players and mainly
because they can be one and done and go right
to the NBA and have success. Is a lot different

(02:31):
than football. It's pretty rare in football where you go, Yeah,
this guy probably doesn't need to stay in college. Like
Jeremiah Smith after year one at Ohio State, he could
have come out and been I don't know if he
would have been a lock top five pick, but he
would have gone in the top twenty. He was ready
for the NFL immediately, right. Jeremiah Love a couple of
years ago could have come into the NFL. I remember

(02:52):
when I was at Fresno State. I got there Ryan
Matthews true sophomore season, and physically he was every bit
as big as every NFL running back besides like Marshawn
Lynch and Adrian Peterson. Physically he was now. He actually
got injured a lot, which was ironic because he looked
like a Greek god. But his look didn't change in

(03:14):
the two years I was around him, and then when
he got drafted in the top fifteen to replace Ledanian Tomlinson.
Some guys are built ready to roll. Jadeveon Clowney, we're
in basketball, It's like this guy's ready to go. You know,
some guys are late bloomers. Not everyone is on the
same path when it comes to a draft class, but
regardless how great your talent is. And Victor Wembin Yama,
I do think it's safe to say is one of

(03:37):
the most unique prospects and young players the NBA has
ever seen. He's like ten feet tall, he can dunk
without jumping, he can shoot threes, not last night, but
he's incredibly skilled. But the hard part about pro sports,
especially when you get name recognition or you start having success,

(03:57):
everyone comes gunning for you, and once you pass one level,
you kind of just level up to the next, you know,
to a more difficult path to where you're trying to go.
And for him, it's like MVP candidate boom second round.
We're gonna take on OKC next round, and who knows,
maybe we just win the championship this year. And they've

(04:19):
been Minnesota Timberwolves, who are wired like a nineteen nineties
NBA team. They got a football mentality, you know. Anthony
Edwards once famously said his favorite sport is football, that
they are a physical ragtag, like they want to get
into a boxing match on the basketball court. Even Rudio
Berry's a sawt frenchman. I watch him. He's pretty damn good,

(04:41):
you know, play for my team. I watched the last
round against Jokis looked pretty good to me, and it
was really really hard for Winbinyama. He was getting shoved around.
It was like, yeah, this is gonna be easy, bro. Rightfully,
so this shouldn't be easy. And football a lot like
basketball is. Once you show up, especially when you're a
high pick, everyone's gunning for you. And physically a lot

(05:05):
of these guys are far superior than anything that they
faced at the collegiate level. I've told this story before,
but Marvin Harrison was a guy that dominated at Ohio
State and it has been very, very difficult for him
so far in the NFL. It's not because he lacks
physical talent. It's not because he doesn't have the athleticism

(05:28):
to run routes and get open at this level. It's
like a mentality, and I remember a buddy of mine
in the league said it could be a tough transition.
He's not used to getting bodied on a weekly basis
at the line of scrimmage in that conference. How many
NFL dbs does he face throughout the season in the
Big ten Iowa had a couple in Michigan, but you're

(05:50):
facing Rutgers, Maryland, Minnesota, not exactly rolling out Dion Sanders
and Darrell Reeves in those units. So mentality wise, like,
these guys are coming for your lunch, and as it
was described to me, he's gonna face the dB every
single week. The majority of them have been to Pro Bowls,
living mansions, driver range rovers, have a couple kids. These

(06:12):
are grown ass men who are bringing it and are
making it a point to embarrass you. And that's part
of pro sports, right, So these guys that get drafted,
I like this class, the top end guys, especially the
Ohio State guys. Right Sonny Styles, As you know, I
text multiple people throughout the league that said he might

(06:34):
be the best linebacker prospect I've ever seen. Now I'm
not talking to guys sixty or seventy years old. I'm
talking to guys in their late thirties and in their forties.
So we're talking about Luke Keikley's, Rokwan Smith's other linebackers
that were drafted really high. And their point is I'm
not saying this guy is going to be better than
those guys, but as a prospect coming out of college.

(06:55):
He's superior and Sonny Style is gonna show up be
the starting middle linebacker for the Washington Commanders immediately week one.
What if they draw the Eagles. It's like you're getting
an offensive line with multi one Hall of Famer, assuming
Lane Johnson on the field, cup multiple other Pro Bowls
right there on the line of scrimmage, a quarterback that

(07:16):
can run, and a running back that, when he's healthy,
is one of the most talented guys we've ever seen.
And they're going to run it right at your ass.
This ain't Iowa, this ain't the Sharon More Michigan group. That.
This is a team that two years ago won the
Super Bowl and they're coming right for you. Can you
shed the block? And that's what is So that's week one,

(07:39):
and then as you start to figure it out, there's
a transitional process. You get better and more confident because
I don't care what you do. You know, I first
just got into football. Some of you guys get into finance,
some of you guys get into the restaurant industry. Some
of you guys get into construction. Obviously, these guys are
all public figures. But regardless when you first get a
job in your early twenties, the expectation there is some grace.

(08:04):
There is a little bit of a period where it's like,
we're gonna let you figure some things out. We're gonna
hold your hand a little bit. Our expectations for you
aren't gonna be that high. Hell will even maybe give
you a year. Most young professionals aren't held to the
same standard as the veterans in their company, no different
than Sonny Styles won't be held to the same standard

(08:26):
as he'll be held to in a couple of years.
Ruben Bain gets an easier rookie year, then Max Crosby
will be judged this year. Right, the expectations are different,
but after a while, the expectations rise. Jeremiah Love, there
is no disputing if he was an NBA prospect like
he's been an elite prospect for a long time, and

(08:46):
if he didn't play running back, he played wide receiver,
he played left tackle, he played quarterback, might have been
the number one pick in the day. If you play
quarterback like Jeremiah Love, that his position is better than
Fernando Mendoza at his position. He's better than David Bailey
at his position. He plays running back, so he doesn't
go one or two. But if he played their positions,
especially quarterback, he would have been the number one overall pick.

(09:07):
But two years ago he played on You know, I
was gonna say the second best team in the country.
Got pretty lucky that Drew Aller threw it right to
his dB with the game kind of in hand. But
obviously one of the better teams in the country two
years ago. Last year, Notre Dame obviously was really good
as well, right, I know that they lost their two
meaningful games, which ended up keeping him out of the

(09:28):
playoffs because you couldn't keep Miami out. And Miami obviously
earned that bid by making a run to the National championship.
But they went ten to two, and it was a disaster, right,
getting left out of the playoffs. They quit the bowl game.
But that's what he's used to. I mean, most of
these guys when you look high in the draft. David
Bailey transferred to Texas Tech and they were immediately in
the playoffs, and if their quarterback wasn't me or you

(09:52):
that they could have beat Oregon. That defense was elite.
Fernando Mendoza transfers torom Cow hasn't lost the game. Last
sixteen games he played, he won them all. So all
these guys like you could have a shitty season. Ohio
State had a down year because they weren't in the finals,
you know, because they lost the Big Ten championship game

(10:13):
in a gut wrenching loss to Indiana. They still had
to buy in the first round. That shows you, like
the expectation for a lot of these guys. The guys
are used to winning. Caleb Downs is like, uh, I'm
leaving Alabama to go to Ohio State. So you get
to the NFL, it's really really hard. Like I said
Sony Styles first week, or maybe it's Hey, you're playing

(10:34):
the Dallas Cowboys and you're getting a bunch of offensive linemen,
they were all drafted in the first round. You're getting
a sixty million dollar quarterback, You're getting Dak and George
Pickens running rounts behind it, and you got to cover
Ferguson News probably one of the more underrated players in
the league. And if Javonte Williams looked like he did
last year, he's coming at your ass with his shoulders lowered,
and it just you just gotta match because there's no

(10:56):
disputing what you earned to be drafted that high based
on your talent in college and your potential moving forward.
And then this training camp starts and the season starts,
and you just got to produce and you gotta play
well and you got to improve. You know, Victor Wembinyama,
as this series goes on, like listen, there's only so

(11:18):
much he can do from a strength standpoint against some
of these guys, but he's just got to match their mentality.
And I think that's all that you want out of
a rookie class. And then as you get older. Bo
Nick's a good example, was drafted really high. Sean Payton.
I don't want to say attached his career to the guy,

(11:38):
because he has enough equity. If it had gone bad,
they probably would have let him pivot and sign someone else.
But he's clearly at least has been all in on
the kid. And it's been a little up and down.
There's there's definitely been flashes, there's been games, there's been
clutch moments, But once we start talking, it's like, are
we gonna get this guy a couple hundred million dollars?

(11:59):
We need to see more? Can we win the Super Bowl?
With you because we have a Super Bowl roster, we're
gonna need you to play well, and so the expectations
he's a good example coming into this season couldn't be
any higher. Caleb Williams expectations now that his team is
viewed as good, that his coach is viewed as a star,
are going to be Can you be a top three
or four MVP candidate. You don't need to win the MVP,

(12:21):
but can you be a top five or six quarterback
this year? Because we know you could make the spectacular plays,
We know you have the physical talent to play at
this level, we know you have the clutch gene, But
can you have consistent games where we just don't have
to get into these clutch situations because we're up twenty points,
because you've thrown four touchdowns, because your first, second and
third quarters were awesome and you didn't need to do

(12:43):
that much in the fourth quarter. And that, to me
is what's so cool about sports is that there's just
no hiding and after a while, it's like you just
got to figure it out. And a lot of it,
you know, is not physically right, because a lot of
these guys, especially that are draft did really high have
all the physical talent, like Zion Williams in basketball, didn't

(13:05):
fail because he lacked the physical attributes, he didn't have
the ideal height, but he failed because he clearly didn't
work hard. He fucked around, he wasn't focused, couldn't put
down the food, which a lot of us struggle with.
But if you're going to be an NBA player, I
bet if we ask Lebron about his diet over the

(13:25):
course of the last fifteen years, or Steph Curry or
some of these guys, it's probably blow you away how
disciplined they are with food. Now, they can get by
with a little more sugar because of the calories in
which they burn. But you got to take that very
very seriously. You know, when we talk about being a pro,
it's not just about like are you on time, are

(13:48):
you at practice a little early? It's how you do
things when no one's looking right, because a lot of
your life isn't just going to be sitting in a
meeting or the practice field. Half the year you're at home.
They don't even need to come to some of these
offseason and activities because they're all voluntary. It's literally legally
not mandated by your business that you have to show up.
It's why there's nothing the Browns can do when Miles

(14:10):
Garrett doesn't show up. It's why over the last couple
of years, Lamar didn't show up and he technically wasn't
doing anything wrong. You know, what, is it ideal if
they're not there? Of course not. But if he wants
to train on his own, he can train on his own.
But if you are going to do that by expectations
for you in terms of the way you're treating your body,
the rehabilitation, you're going above and beyond. And that is

(14:33):
what defines all these guys now in football different than basketball.
Victor wimbin Yama, if he's such a great individual, even
if his team wasn't as good, can carry them to
heights as an individual that you can't do in football.
Like in football, you need to help Jeremiah Love in
a couple of years could be the best running back
in the league. If his franchise sucks, if his coordinator sucks,

(14:55):
if his offensive line isn't good and they don't have
a quarterback, he can only do so much. Like did
Saquan just learn how to play football when he got
to Philadelphia, of course not right. He had issues beside
the injuries because their offensive line wasn't good. Daniel Jones struggled.
They didn't have explosive playmakers on the outside. A lot
of stuff's out of your control. No different sunny styles

(15:17):
who I can't wait to watch play football? How good
is the defensive line? Who's his defensive coordinator? You know?
Is his offense good? Are they always up in games?
Are they down in games? Are we you know, defending
the pass in the second half? Are they just running
it down my throat? These are all things. You know,
into Ohio State most of their games they're dominating, right,

(15:40):
they have a huge advantage. That's not how the NFL is.
I think, like I remember the stat several years ago.
It might have changed a little bit, but I think
eighty plus percent of games are within one score going
into the fourth quarter. So it's why at the end
of the season, you know, the NFL, it's like, well,
what do they need to do about tank? You know,
because the NBA that became such a talking point. I

(16:06):
don't like the word narrative because it was true. I
mean it was it was a factual. Third of the
league is literally not trying to win games in football,
maybe your last game, maybe the last two games, like
the Raiders with Max Crosby, but he need knee surgery.
So like they didn't let Max Crosby play because he
needed knee surgery. Now could he have played the last

(16:26):
couple of games they were in a playoff run, of course,
but he still would have needed knee surgery. Right, So
to me, it's you know what the Eagles did several
years ago when they benched a quarterback at halftime. That
was Week seventeen, you know, and it's not their problem.
What you're doing in the NFL. Tanking is not really
an issue. I've said it forever. It's why we have
so many games late in the season. It's like, Wow,

(16:46):
this Monday night football game is the Rams against the Falcons.
That game sucks. I wish the Rams were playing a
playoff team. All of a sudden, you look up and
the Rams lose, and Bijeon goes for a buck eighty.
Because in football you have to try. You can't just
you know, in basketball or in baseball, you gotta go
through the motions. I would imagine if you talk to

(17:08):
a major league baseball player, there are some days there
in the outfield and they're just like, I'm not really
paying attention. I got no focus. I'm exhausted, and maybe
I went out a little hard the night before. It's
a day game. The next day, I do not have
my AG game. You know. In basketball, I mean, hell
you just the regular season has never been worse. That's
the worst regular season. The NBA playoffs Like if you

(17:30):
watch Minnesota against San Antonio or that Philly Boston game seven,
it doesn't resemble anything, not that I watch much regular season,
but it's just because it's become a terrible product and
the playoffs become completely different football. It's just you don't
have any average to below average quarterbacks often in the playoffs,
so you're just gonna face two guys that are usually

(17:52):
highly paid, really good players, or a young up and
coming star. But I don't know if the game is
that much different, right, there's more Every play matters a
little bit more because there's no it's a one and
done scenario, like a playoff game feels like a big
Sunday night game against the Ravens and the Bills, or
the Cowboys and the Eagles, or the Rams in Seattle,

(18:12):
like that Rams Seattle. Those Thursday night you know showdown
toward the end of the season felt like a fucking
playoff game, right because in football a lot of games
feel like a playoff game because they all kind of matter.
And these football players under the microscope, especially these young rookies,
is just I mean to me, one of my favorite

(18:32):
parts of a season is watching how guys has sinned,
especially young players. It could even be second or thirty,
you know year players. Today's show is brought to you
by our presenting sponsor, hard Rock Beat, Florida's sports book
Love these guys. Obviously we talk football on this show,

(18:55):
but the NBA playoffs is heating up. So with all
these winn or go home game sevens, these new series starting,
anytime you want to get a little action, Joel Embi
to get a triple double, Shaye to score forty, you
name it, you got it. Same game parlays, easy to
build all playoff long, and if you're a little late,

(19:16):
don't worry hert Rock Bet lets you live bet all
game long. Try your first bet on hard Rock Bet
today and you can score one hundred and fifty and
bonus bets if you win. Just places a five dollars
bet and if it hits you get not only your
winnings but an extra one hundred and fifty and bonus bets.
And sure Hard Rock is Florida's only legal sportsbook, but

(19:38):
you don't have to be in Florida to join the party.
Hertrock Bet is also live in Arizona, Ohio, Jersey, Indiana, Tennessee, Virginia, Illinois, Colorado,
and Michigan. Download the hard Rock Bet app now and
let's get the party started. Payable and bonus bets not
a cash offer offered by Seminal Tribe of Florida. In Florida,
offered by Seminal hard Rock did LLC and all other states.

(20:02):
You must be twenty one plus and physically present in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee,
and Virginia to play. Terms and conditions apply. Concerned about
gambling in Florida, call one eight three three play Wise
in Indiana. If you are someone you know has a

(20:22):
gambling problem and wants help, call one eight hundred and nine.
With it gambling problem call one hundred Gambler Arizona, Colorado, Illinois,
New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia. Speaking of veteran players, Joe Burrow,

(20:44):
who I think the Bengals need a little bit apology
would probably be too strong, but they get lumped in
as being like this clown organization that spends no money,
that just doesn't know what they're doing. I think the
last couple of years they've done everything possible to put

(21:05):
Joe Burrow in a good position except one thing. And
speaking of that, I think Joe Burrow, I don't know.
I wouldn't call him Lebron because Lebron, through Rich Paul,
would kind of indirectly make it public, like let everyone
know what he wanted. I don't know if Joe really
does that, but he clearly does, which I respect directly

(21:27):
with them and by all accounts. And this is why
it came out when they traded for Dexter Lawrence. It's
like signals have been shown. We better figure this out
or we're gonna have a problem. And Joe, who with
Justin Jefferson a couple by you Tigers. We're at the
met Gala, an event that not only will I never
get invited to, I don't think you could pay me

(21:49):
to attend. He said this I'm really excited about the
moves we made this offseason. We need to get better,
so it was exciting to see the initiative from every
everybody in the organization to realize that we're in a
very exciting stage. We're in the prime of our We're
in our primes playing great football. Finding guys like Dexter

(22:10):
and Brian Cook and boy A that'd be boy A
Mafe to you know, really solidify the defense so the
young guys can also rise up. We're really going to
try to achieve what we want to achieve. I think
he's right because the Bengals front office should be commended.
I think they've had one I think you could argue
that Burrow forced their hands on t Higgins where it's

(22:32):
like I think most front offices would have thought twice
about doing that deal, but the way they financially structured
it wasn't crazy. But he wanted him there. They kept
him with Jamar. I think he could have allocated other ways,
but that's what he wanted, so that's what he got.
And I think over the course of the last eighteen
months they've done a lot for the defense. We can
argue over the Shamar Stewart pick, but they invested in

(22:55):
a freak athlete in the top twenty to rush the passer.
And then they doubled down this year with their first
pick because they traded for Dexter Lawrence on Cashus Howell,
who played at tex A and m as Well. I
think is a much better player than Shamar Stewart, but
physically is a little different. He has really short arms.
But so they've invested two really high picks in pass
rushers to go along with Dexter Lawrence, an all Pro.

(23:18):
They've given him everything he needs on offense. I had
a buddy tell me this, who's a pro scout said, listen,
Joe burrow is. When he's on, he's as good as
it gets. I mean, when he's on, he looks like
a probably a little stronger Joe Montana. I mean he's
I think he's played one of the best games I've
ever seen two years ago against the forty nine ers.

(23:39):
It was basically a perfect football game. It was one
of those you would have seen like the mid twenty
tens with Aaron Rodgers. It's like, this is perfection. But
their defense was a joke. And now they've added a
bunch of defensive players. I think all the pressure this year,
assuming these guys stay healthy, which is always a big
if in football, is on the coaching staff. And the

(24:01):
one question you would have is could they have got
a better coach? Like could they have been in the
business last year when Ben Johnson was available, fired Zach
Taylor and hired Ben Johnson. It's like, yeah, you could
probably nitpick that. People say that about should Jason light
and the Glazer family have fired Todd Bowles to keep
Liam Cohen. I think that's easier said than done. But

(24:23):
they're all in, and when a team is ever all in,
much easier to fire the coaches and the players. And
Zach Taylor's clearly been on thin ice a little bit
in general, and now I think the pressure on him
his defensive staff. Right, they fired the defensive coordinator a
couple of years ago, was now in Indie and they
bring it out Golden who'd been there before, coming from

(24:45):
I want to say Penn State, but he was a
Notre Dame. I guess he was. He a Penn State.
I get confused. He was actually the Temple head coach
when I lived in Philly. I think he's a pretty
good coach, but like no one's gonna want to hear
we didn't have enough because this they've I've been saying
this before the draft. Now that you add cash is
Howell to go with Dexter, Lawrence Mafey and some of

(25:06):
the other guys they already had that they're easily right
now might pick to win the to win the North. Uh.
You look at Pittsburgh a lot of question marks aging defense.
I mean, this Rogers situation is the ongoing, never ending
saga that just God damn, no one wants to talk
about this anymore. And I mean last year we saw
Mike McCarthy coach, didn't go great. Obviously, the Ravens have

(25:30):
a ton of question marks new coaching staff. They just
lost a bunch of talent that the Browns more than
likely are gonna start Deshaun Watson, which I think, if
he wanted to be optimistic, is Deshaun Watson and the
Shanahan offense which Stefanski essentially runs, is not really a fit.
When you look at Todd Munkin in what he has

(25:52):
done over the course of his career, it actually might
be a little bit better of a scheme fit for
his in theory a bilit So I'm not gonna say
that he's gonna resurrect his career, but I can see
them happening some moments, assuming he's fully healthy. Because he's
you know, a lot of people go back and forth like,
is it unfair? How shit door not beating him Out's guys,

(26:14):
they're paying him like sixty million dollars. They gave him
two hundred and thirty million dollars. He's he's been in the
NFL for way. He should have the advantage if he's healthy.
But I think the Bengals all the pressures on their coach,
and if you tell me that Zach Taylor is not
the coach in twenty twenty seven, the bro think you
then get weird. You know, It's funny. I I struggle

(26:38):
with patients. I've never been a very patient human. And
then you know, you the Internet and the scrolling and
how often your phone's in front of you definitely does
not help the probably the brain chemistry if you're an
impatient human. I actually just ordered some blue light glasses.
I saw Rory talk about that. It's like, if I'm

(26:59):
gonna look at my screen and my phone and my computer,
my iPad NonStop, and I gotta get ahead of this
to help just any chemistry that's left upstairs. But I've
really tried to work now, you know, with Jack and
just you give family. Sometimes you got to slow down.

(27:21):
And I think patience in your personal life with your family,
with your close friends, I think that translates really well
to business. Like I'm always pro being aggressive and putting
your nuts on the line and taking big swings in life,
but you have to do it. You got to be

(27:41):
measured with it. You can't just do it constantly. That's
not a good approach to have. Right, If an opportunity
presents itself, sometimes you got to trade pick ten for
dextern Lawrence. That is a risk worth taking, but it's
a risk. And the reality is most things in life
are a risk. Getting married as a risk, taking a
job zone risk. Quitting a job's a risk, Having a

(28:02):
child's a risk, getting a mortgage's a risk. Welcome to life.
And I think historically in the draft, we have seen
so many examples of a team going we never acpected
this guy to be here. We just we just waited.
All of our projections, especially now with AI and these
different models and the technology these teams have. They have

(28:23):
a pretty good idea. Once you get past pick six
or seven, they can run different models and go there's
probably less than a ten percent chance this player is
ever gonna be there. So if you don't, if you
want that player, you're gonna have to have some things
lined up before the draft to go up and get
them or be cool with the next cluster of players.
And I think that's how when you're a team draft

(28:46):
in fifteen eighteen. Obviously in the twenties, you kind of
set up the operation. You know, Brett Veach talked about
it when they got delayed, is they kind of had
a pretty good idea who the first couple picks were
going to be. So they knew their cluster of guys,
the couple guys they liked, whether it was Tate, whether
it was Reese and delaye of Once two of the
three of the cluster went up, they wanted to get

(29:07):
that guy. They desperately wanted defense. They had to go
up and get aggressive to make sure they got one
of their guys. But late in the draft, it's like
you never really know. And Daniel Jeremiahs told the story
when he was with the Ravens about Ed Reid. I
forget the player they wanted, but they were like getting
ready to trade up, and the trade got Nicks, and
all of a sudden they just took Ed Reed. That's
not the guy they wanted, And ten years later one

(29:29):
guy's a blaw Hall of Famer. I think the other
guy was out of the league. Happens all the time.
There's a long list of those times or those situations
and examples being true. But sometimes life is about being
patient as much as it is about being aggressive. And
I think the draft's a good example of that. And
you look at Reuben Bain, anyone that watched college football regardless,

(29:51):
Like you don't need to be an NFL scout, You
didn't need to know as measurables. If you just watched
the games, you went, holy shit, who is that guy
coming off the edge from Miami. Really it was two
of them. Both of them went in the first round,
both of them high. But Jason light told Pat McAfee
that all of our projections, everything that we had when

(30:14):
we left the combine going into free agency, not in
a million years did we imagine this happening. He's like
a lot of things were out of our control. If
you think about it, Max Crosby was traded to the Ravens.
He said we were gonna try to sign Trey Hendrickson,
and without saying it kind of made it sound like
I think they thought they were gonna sign Trey Hendrickson. Well,

(30:37):
then the Crosby trade gets nicked, obviously, the Ravens get
more aggressive with Trey. The Ravens then have Trey Hendrickson
lose their center to the Raiders for a ton of money.
The Raiders, because they had so much cap space, don't
have to like nix that deal and they can just
keep all their free agents. So the Ravens add a
pass rusher for a lot of money and lose an

(30:58):
interior offensive line. So then when when ruben Bain falls
out of the top ten, I bet they're sitting there thinking, well,
the Rams could easily take them, because all of a sudden,
if you just rolled out young verse Fisk ruben Bain,
who is blocking that unit of just constant rotation of

(31:19):
young stud pass rushers, and then all of a sudden,
out of nowhere they take Ty Simpson. And then because
of the Max Crosby fiasco, the Ravens don't emphasize a
pass rusher. When you watch ruben Bain play, if you
ask me what type team does he remind you of.
I would have been like raven Steelers matchup of like

(31:40):
fifteen years ago, back when it was like James Harrison
against Terrell Suggs, Hello Di Nada, Brett keesl like kind
of that group, you know, Lamar Woodley. That's just kind
of what he feels like in the heat of their rivalry.
And like the late two thousands and early twenty tens
when it was a war zone before you want to
ever heard of CTE before these new rules, and it

(32:03):
felt like Mike Tyson fighting Mike Tyson. That's what ruben
Baine felt like. He would have been right up the
alley of a Ravens type player. But clearly they're a
little more desperate for offensive line having just lost an
interior offensive lineman. And I know this guy's a guarden
not a center, but people think you can probably do both,
and they take a guard and all of a sudden,
Ruben Babe's is sitting there at fifteen Like it just

(32:25):
shows you so many things are out of your control,
whether you're drafting, whether you're dating, whether you're trying to
look for a new job, and sometimes it's hard. Like I,
like I said, I can be impatient. I'm sure a
lot of you listening can be inpatient. Our society has
never been less patient. Sometimes patient pays. And Jason Light,

(32:48):
who I think is easily considered one of the best
drafters in the NFL. We can nitpick Todd Bowles, right,
but listen, I like Todd personally. I think there's a
lot of pressure for Todd to win. Jason Light is
not only on scholarship. He if he ever became available,
there'd be ten teams lined up to hire him immediately.

(33:08):
He's he's a star. And I'm not just saying that
because I know him. It's not like I know him
that well. But Jason Light's resume speaks for himself. When
it comes to drafting, and he just out there and
waited and got one of the best players in the draft,
he'd be like, well, it's arm length. I think there
are sometimes now listen. Bill Parcell's famous thing was, you
start drafting exceptions, you start drafting outliers, you'll have a

(33:32):
team full of them. I don't think that's really what
they've done like Videvea, Mike Evans, Tristan Wurf's. You know,
they got a lot of team, They got a lot
of guys, blue chip type guys. This is I think
somewhat of a unique opportunity to get a guy who
I can't see feeling. Someone asked me yesterday in the
mailbag who my favorite first round picks, and I said,

(33:54):
I think, I said Reese and and Caleb Downs. This
would be one of them because I think last year,
just pound for pound as a football player, you could
make the argument, I know Fernando Mendez accomplished the most.
I think. You know, it's hard because Jeremiah Loves season
was cut off after they didn't have a conference championship

(34:15):
game because they're not in one, they didn't make the playoffs.
You could make the argument he was the best player
last year in college football. Ruben Bay and I'd be
stunned if at minimum he's not really good. There are
no guarantees in the draft, but I just I can't
see him failing now. Is he gonna be an all pro?
I don't know, but he definitely has the mentality and
what do we just talked about earlier sports, A lot

(34:36):
about mentality. After a while, it's like, how bad do
you want it? How mentally tough you are you? How
do you respond from getting your ass kicked back to
back weeks? How do you respond with getting benched week
four your rookie year? How do you respond with playing
through an injury that you've never had? And by all accounts,
this guy is wired like a fucking badass. So props

(34:58):
the Bucks really quick. On the Packers. I saw Gudakin's
I think was on like Series XM after the draft.
He said the hope in the expectation is to have
Tucker Craft and Micah Parsons back. He didn't say week one,
he said early in the season. I think when you
look at their roster, and I've always been a huge

(35:19):
proponent of this organization my entire life of watching sports,
They've been good. They just never suck. Like when do
you ever get to April and be like, oh, the
Packers of the fourth pick, Oh, the Packers of the
ninth pick. I think it's I didn't. I probably could
have done the research on this. But beside a j Hawk,
which was was at six o seven, I mean, you're

(35:44):
talking twenty years. This team feels like consistently drafting twenty
or higher and a lot of times in the mid twenties,
and in the Aaron Rodgers era a lot of times
like twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine. I know Packer
fans wish they would have made some more Super Bowls,
but you guys win in the NFC Championship a lot.
You know, got a lot of bites at the Apple.
I do think when you look at this roster, there

(36:04):
are a lot of unknowns. They let a lot of
guys walk in free agency, they traded some players. This
is kind of a I don't want to say a
transitional time, but definitely more turnover than they've had in
recent memory, and they become somewhat of a top heavy team.
It's like, well they just added Well they didn't add
Ruben Bain or Messador or one of the good offensive

(36:27):
linemen that win the twenties, or Omar Cooper or any
of those guys because they didn't have a first round pick.
That is Michaeh Parsons. Now, if Micup looked like he
did before he got injured, he was clearly a dominant,
dominant force and they are going to need that to
continue They're gonna need him to be one of the
best players in the league, and they desperately need Tucker

(36:48):
Craft back because you know, one is weird. You look
at the stats from last year. Their leading wide receiver
was Romeo Dobbs fifty five catches. You know Wicks, who
they just trade. The Eagles cut twenty nine balls, so
it's not like they had multiple guys eighty ninety catches
like they have in years past with the Jordan Nelson's,
Donald Drivers that you know, DeVante Adams. This is a

(37:11):
unit that they're gonna need to step up, and Tucker
is a huge part of that. I think there's a
ton of pressure on Matthew Golden. I think they need
Matthew Golden to be I don't know, sixty five to
seventy five catch guy immediately next year and give him,
you know, explosive speed with Watson down the field and
account for seven eight touchdowns. This is a team they're

(37:34):
gonna need some of their unproven guys to really pick
it up. And from a star power standpoint, Tucker Craft's
got to be one of the best tight ends in
the league. Michah Parsons has to be like a defensive
player of the Year type guy, which he has been
over the course of his career, but he's never come
back from an injury like this. It's a pretty big
thing for a guy whose game is all explosion, all

(37:58):
beating you with just warp speed off the edge. So
this is the first time in a long time where
it's like, Okay, this organizational kind of prestige that they've
always had, this organizational structure that is withstand or withstood

(38:19):
the test of decades, from Ron Wolf to Ted to Goot,
to Mike Sherman to Mike Holmgren to Mike McCarthy. Now
it's on the floor. Goot Jordan love to kind of
keep this thing going because the Bears, I think some
people think they might come back to earth a little bit.
I'm buying. You give me a coach that good, You

(38:41):
give me a quarterback who has that level of confidence
late in the game, if he just improves in the
middle of the game, they're gonna be excellent in The
Lions just have too many impact players a key positions
that if they're playing, they're not gonna be a competitive team.
So I think Minnesota's gonna fall off the off. Cliff
a little bit, But I think the Packers is a

(39:03):
major wild card. Like it's hard for me to imagine
them just sucking. But also you look at their roster
with some of the question marks, it's hard for me
to imagine them just win fourteen games. Like last year,
I bet on them to make the super Bowl. It
actually felt pretty good about it until their whole team
started tearing acy else. But I have a lot more
questions at this time this year than I did at

(39:24):
this time last year at John Midcoff. At John Middcoff,
is the instagram firing those dms questions answered here on
the show. Here's the thing the off season, my instagrams

(39:45):
are wide open, So fire in those dms. Get your
questions answered on the show again, dms wide open, fire
in talk with the people. We'll answer your questions here
and we'll be asked and have a good time going
into the twenty sixth season. What do you think the
best rivalries in the NFL are He kind of listed

(40:09):
some of his Bears, Packers, Niners, Rams, and Seahawks duke
it out in the NFC West. I would say currently
last year's Bears Packers was pretty special. Those are three
of the best games of the year. I think Rams
Niners in so far on that Thursday night game, the
Thursday night game Ram Seattle, I think you hit the

(40:30):
nail on the head with those games. I think the
Cowboys Eagles has been pretty good, and I think there's
a lot of stakes. I just think, especially if the
Cowboys are better this year, the Cowboys of Sneaky played
them really well. You know, they won the division a
couple times with McCarthy. Last year they beat him in
that comeback win. I think that's a pretty underrated rivalry.

(40:52):
I think if the Patriots can maintain this, I think
Bill's Pats could be pretty sick. If Harbaugh can resurrect
the Giants, I think Giants Cowboys and Giants Eagles can
be pretty you know, pretty special. I think the Ravens
Steelers have lost a little luster, right, I mean they
just the Steelers just haven't been good enough, right. I

(41:12):
mean the Steelers, you know they're going nowhere. Those games
used to really resonate because it felt like they were
Super Bowl matchups. You know, a couple of years ago
they played in the playoffs and Baltimore won by double digits.
It wasn't that close. So I think in theory that
game holds a steam from years back. But like things change,

(41:33):
you know. I mean, part of it was Harbaugh and Tomlin.
That was a huge part of the rivalry was those
two guys. Was it? Uh Jacoby I want to say,
not Jacoby Brissette, not Jacoby Myers, Uh Jake some Jacoby
I think RP. I think he passed away when Mike
Tomlin came on the field. I think there was just

(41:54):
something special about those games. It's not quite the same.
I think Ravens Bills had a little more juice. That's
a pretty good game. I think, you know, the AFC
West games are pretty solid. But it's like, yeah, I
don't know. I'm trying to think of the best rivalries

(42:15):
in the AFC. Chiefs Bills. I mean, he's just a
fantastic game. When that game's on, feels really big. It's
not apples to apples, but it's taken on a little
you know, Patriot Colts, just when that game's on, it's
just gonna be the biggest game of the week. Jags Colts.
Just kidding. Question for the bag. I'm not getting the

(42:41):
assumption that Arch will be the number one pick. In
twenty seven. As soon as this year ended, I started
seeing an influx of mocks that all assumed Arch is
going to be the number one pick, in my opinion,
over other guys who have done much more in their careers,
like Chambliss and Dante Moore. It seemed to me like
Arch was certainly suffering from poor offensive line play, but

(43:03):
he also had wildly inconsistent accuracy. He struggled against poor
competition and only had a few good games. Is his
position in these mock drafts all projection based on the
assumption he's gonna improve? And do you agree with him
being held in such high regards? I think you got
to look at this twofold He did improve. If you

(43:27):
put Arch Manning on the picture of your mock draft
on NFL dot com, on ESPN dot com, on a
tweet or an Instagram link, it's gonna get people to
click on it. If his name was Arch Middlecoff or
Arch Johnson, not Manning, I don't think in a million
years we would be discussing him as the number one

(43:48):
overall pick. Now. I was probably a little too harsh
on him early in the season because I respect the
shit out of the family and by all accounts, mentally
he's pretty tough because he was getting the sh kicked
out of him. He was not playing good but and
maybe had an arm injury and he kind of battled
through and in that text A and M game, he
made some big plays with his legs like he was.

(44:12):
I'm excited to watch him, but based on last year,
this notion that he's the number one pick to me
is one of the most insane things I've ever seen,
and I've been in the internet business long enough. It's like,
whenever someone tweets at me like you're just clickbait, like
I need you to listen to the podcast. So if
you I don't make any money from a social tweet

(44:32):
or a social clip, like that's not monetizing those They're
just for social awareness of anything. I'm not an influencer
on Instagram here, But in what world could you have
watched him last year without knowing that he's gonna dramatically
improve and think he's the number one overall pick. The

(44:54):
other thing is we have recent examples now Fernando Mendoza,
who nobody at this time last year was discussing about
being a first round pick, let alone a number one
pick for a team. When do you think the Raiders
decide that Fernando Mendoza was their pick January? Like, he's
been the number one pick for probably four months. The

(45:16):
game that they attended in Miami with Brady spy Tech
and the rich dudes. I forget the owners the new owners' names,
but I know they got a lot of cash. One
of the Moon's Discovery Properties and his partners with Cindy
Crawford's husband. I would love to be a member of
Discovery Properties. If the guy's listening, I would just hit

(45:37):
me up because we'd love to get involved. They look
really cool, but it's not really how quarterback play works,
you know, in other positions. Jeremiah Smith, right, he's been
talked about as a top ten pick since he was
like eighteen years old, the offensive tackle from they just
transferred to LSU. To the five star guy from Colorado.

(46:00):
I don't know where he's gonna go, but we've been
talking this guy as an NFL prospect for a long time.
You know. Last year, think about some of the players
we've been talking about, Jerald my Love and Caleb Downs
for years. Cardinal Tate went a lot higher than we
thought but we've been talking about Cardinal Tait and Ohio
States wide receivers since all their guys have been getting drafted.
So I just think sometimes with quarterbacks cam Ward, no

(46:24):
one was talking about him as the number one overall pick.
Then he transfers to Miami and becomes the number one
overall pick. Jane Daniels was viewed as like, I don't know,
second third, fourth round pick. Then he has one of
the most incredible seasons of all time, wins the Heisman,
puts up incredible stats, and gets drafted second overall. So
things change dramatically, and quarterback is more fickle than all

(46:46):
these other positions to me, Like, if you're viewed right
now in an NFL building, it's like, hey, we think
the guard, I'm just gonna pick a random player, some
guard at Oregon right now, the best guard I've seen
so far coming into this season, Like he's probably gonna
be a top thirty pick in one way or other.

(47:07):
Maybe if he if he if he peaks, he'll be
the eleventh pick. And if he has a down year,
maybe he goes twenty eighth. Peter Woods, who the Chiefs
took in the late twenties, coming into the season, like
this guy could be a top ten pick, had a
down year, team was awful, got picked twenty ninth. Right,
That's kind of how the quarterbacks. Garrett nus Smiler's gonna

(47:28):
be a top five pick, goes in the seventh round.
Drew Aller coming off that year, where where they were
in the final foward, if he doesn't fuck up, they're
in the championship. It's like, Drew Aller, he gets together
this year, Penn State wins the national championship, he could
be a first round pick. James Franklin gets fired, Drew
Aller gets injured, he gets drafted in the third round.

(47:50):
People think it's insane that he got drafted that high.
So you just Carson Beck last year going into Miami,
you would have been like the undrafted free agent gets
drafted in the second round, second round or first pick
of the third. I think first pick of the third,
but you know what I mean, because he helped his
sock and in quarterbacks, to me, it's a lot like

(48:11):
the stock market, very up and down that you just
do not know. But there's no way right now unless
you're guessing and projecting, and the projection is he dramatically
improves one. I don't know if you know there was
rumors about some labrum shoulder issue. His throwing motion is weird.
There is no way to dispute that. Like Eli had

(48:33):
a very natural, powerful arm, Peyton's was He famously said,
I throw a wobbly duck. Peyton was elite precision inaccuracy. Right,
I'm watching Arcs beside movement and running. What does he
do really well? Now? His team is going to be
stacked this year. They've bought offensive linemen, they bought the

(48:55):
wide receiver who's probably gonna go in the top ten,
fifteen coleman from Auburn. So they are gonna have a
loaded fucking team. So that to me adds more pressure.
It's like, okay, time to dominate. Still plays in the SEC,
still playing a bunch of NFL guys. But there's no way,
beside the name, you could say coming into the season,

(49:16):
he's gonna go ahead of Dante Moore. I've seen Dante
Moore do more in college, who also has some question marks.
You could argue this class that is viewed very very highly, Right,
Dante Moore. We'll see what happens with Sores b Sellers.
I think there's a guy Utsa's coach got the Oklahoma

(49:37):
State job. His quarterback came with him to Oklahoma State.
I'm surely missing guys. I can't. I can't think of
all the quarterbacks. Oh, CJ. Carr from Notre Dame. There's
gonna be a ton of names. You still gotta play
well because at defensive line or corner or linebacker, you
could be this guy's probably like late first round pick

(50:00):
and have a bad year, still go in the second round.
At quarterback. When you have a bad year, like you
can tumble tumble, Because most of these guys like a
bad character, quarterback typically is not that bad, so it's
really quarterback the focus is much more on the play
because I bet if we just Dante more car arch Sellers,

(50:26):
my guess is they're all pretty good kids, good teammates,
people like them. I'm just guessing I'm giving them the
benefit of the doubt because that's usually how it happens.
Most of these guys, I bet past the character test,
so they're only judged on football, where a lot of
these other guys like elite talent, but god kind of

(50:46):
as comeback. That's usually not the case of quarterbacks, not
the good ones. Most of the good ones, good guys, right,
I mean, look at the two quarterbacks won the first
round this year. Character and teammates like none of you
didn't hear the only thing we talked about Fernando Mendoz
and Ty Simpson on the field play it. So I

(51:08):
tend to agree with you. Now people change, and you know,
it was his first year starting. The hype was unfair.
It wasn't his fault. He didn't. As my wife tells me,
Jack didn't choose us. We created him, right, You don't
get to choose your parents, right, We just he is
easily could have been born into a home in Scottsdale.

(51:30):
He could have been born, you know, in some other
country to some other random family. Might look a little different,
but it's like he just he was born in that
family and obviously got the athletic gens right from his
brother or I mean not his brother, but his you know,
Peyton and Eli's brother was actually the best athlete of
the group in Cooper. He was a wide receiver. So

(51:52):
he's got the athletic jeans, but he's in theory, got
the quarterback skill set. I I see people talk so
confidently about this and just think, can we spint the breaks?
Can we just watch them have a season? I would
say this, and again I hate picking on him because

(52:12):
it's not his fault. It's like people shit on Bronnie.
It's like, yeah, he didn't. It's like this is out
of these guys control is that? Like he's got to
do it and everyone's gonna be watching them. Everyone was
watching them last year, but then they kind of were
out of it. Their season was weird and they just
kind of kind of stopped paying attention. The amount of

(52:34):
money they spent on that roster. It's like their expectation
is gonna be like OHU State or Miami. You know,
it's gonna be to fucking be deep into the playoffs.
I mean last year, the year started and they played
when they played Ohio State. Now, looking back, like that
was a really tough defense to play. Trying to look
at their football schedule. Okay, they open up with with

(52:58):
the Kansasite Chiefs also known as Texas State, so no
expectation there, throw a couple of touchdowns, win the game
forty to seven, and just get out of there. Then
they play Ohio State and this is the home and home.
So last year, you open up on the road against them,
turns out Kalem down Sunny Styles Reese like they were

(53:20):
fucking they were no joke. Now that was honestly we
might look back, Hey, first start against those guys on
the road. That's Peyton Manning would have struggled. I'll give
you a pass on that. This year, the expectations can
be a little bit different because they're gonna have a
lot of new guys starting on defense replacing those guys,
and you're gonna have the experience in Austin. That's gonna

(53:42):
be the average ticket to get in that game. Right now,
the low the get in price is four hundred and
fifty dollars where Texas state the openers one hundred bucks
go mean a lot of people in that thing. Then
they go utsa who has been good? I don't I
can't pretend to know their roster now. Initial just look
at these teams are playing like this is not gonna

(54:03):
be easy. At Tennessee, I think the biggest stadium in
the country or top two or three hundred and seven
thousand people, one hundred and twelve thousand people. Then they
get Oklahoma, which we know is one of the best
defenses in the country. Florida, who should be dramatically improved
with John Somemroll who by all accounts he inherited a
lot of good players. Playing Ole Miss that's gonna have

(54:25):
a lot of dudes returning and be really good. I mean,
that's we're not even to Halloween yet. And Archers played
Ohio State at Tennessee, Oklahoma, Florida, Ole Miss. That's a really,
really tough stretch. Mississippi State not great. But then they
go to at Missouri, who has been a top twenty
five team, at LSU with Lane Kiffin, who's gonna have

(54:48):
playoff expectations. Arkansas is probably gonna suck next year. And
then at Texas A and M, who has one of
the best defensive coaches in the country. So they play
they play Oklahoma and TEXA and M, who are gonna
have two of the best defenses in the country. Ohio State,
who's probably gonna have one of the best defense in
the country. I would imagine between Florida and LSU, one

(55:12):
of those teams and Ole Miss is gonna be a
playoff team. I mean, this schedule is hard, which makes
it fun, I mean, makes it entertaining, but he's which
I respect. And this is Texas going to the SEC.
You're not just playing Kansas State and Arizona. That's a mother.

(55:49):
I know you're not the biggest fan of Stefanski, but
if you were Matt Ryan Shoes, was there any better
option available at head coach once Harbaugh went to the Giants?
Can I see this on stef I kind of treat
I'd rather have Kevin O'Connell than Stefanski. But I just
think everyone loves Stefanski, and it's like, Okay, I mean,

(56:10):
I he's solid, but he is very headstrong, and he
clearly doesn't adapt that well when it comes to his offense.
And two he gets very I would say, tied to
a quarterback type, like once you take Dylan Gabriel, And
by all counts, Dylan Gabriel is a great guy, but

(56:31):
in the history of the draft, you can never take
that guy in the third round. For as crazy as
ty Simpson is, if if I said ty Simpson's one
of the craziest picks I've ever seen. We have seen
Mac Jones go fifteen, We've seen Kenny Pick go twenty,
but they were not going to a team as good
as the Rams. So part of it was the Rams

(56:54):
had to pick thirteenth pick. They could have taken incredible player.
That factors in. I would say Ty Simpsons is physically
more gifted than those two guys just as a player.
If I was ranking Ty Simpson, Kenny Pickett, Mac Jones,
and Dylan Gabriel, I would have Ty Simpson one. I
would go Mac Jones. Two, I would go drop off

(57:16):
to Kenny Pickett, and then I would go Grand Canyon,
drop off to Dylan Gabriel. But you can never convince
me they didn't draft Dylan Gabriel because Stefanski is a
pound on the table, because he likes players like that
in his offense, which is actually why I think the
Falcons are gonna like Tua. I saw Matt Ryan say
that we feel that we're in good shape with our quarterbacks.
Tua and Michael Pennix are his type. Quarterbacks, play action,

(57:39):
dink and dunk, occasional deep shot, smart guys like know
the offense. They can't carry you. But Stefanski types, they
don't want quarterbacks that can carry you, and him and
Kevin O'Connell a lot different. Kevin O'Connell wants to drop
back spread that shit out and throw bombs, which in
a weird way I respect, and I like sometimes you

(58:01):
need to run in certain situations. Stefanski's a fine iron.
They couldn't have done much worse. The other thing I
had is how often do I hear Browns players and
I get they've lost a lot, this team's been weird.
Just go we love this guy. I love Stefanski. Doesn't
feel like I don't know there's I just think something's

(58:24):
a little off. That's my whole point, not that he's bad.
I just I think relative to the hype, I don't
necessarily see it. Lifelong Titans fan who foolishly is getting excited.
I wanted to get your insight into a specific coach
player situation. What are your thoughts on the super talented

(58:45):
yet underachieving Keldric fulk with Bob Salah, given what you've
seen of sala before, what kind of expectations would be
fair for the Titans? You know, part of being a
great coach obviously anyone successful, and this simple reality of

(59:07):
life is once you start doing well financially, it probably
boosts a little bit of your ego and your self confidence.
So coaches who are all multi millionaires are just naturally
gonna have a little bit of an ego and a
self belief because they're the guy at the top of
the food chain. But then once they are good at
their job, they're I don't know, I don't want to

(59:29):
say cocky, but they have this belief that they can
fix anybody. And if you're gonna have a guy in
the latter part of the first round, if I go, hey,
I can give you some overachieving player who tries hard
but might not have the physical characteristics to ever be
a high end player. Or I can give you a

(59:50):
guy that has the physical athletic profile to be a
pro Bowl guy, but a lot of question marks, effort,
just production. I think one of the knocks on him
in the run game coaches Robertson thinks they can fix you.

(01:00:12):
So part of his what he brings to the table
is let me get my hands on him. It's like
a great artist who works with clay. It's like, give
me a piece of clay. I'll make you some sweet Michaelangelo,
give me a brush. Watch this well, if the material sucks,
if the paint stole, maybe it's not gonna work. You know,

(01:00:32):
you're not gonna paint the Sistine Chapel every single day.
And I think this gets coaches burned a lot, which
I respect some coaches. I think there's two sides to
the coin with coaching mindset. One they don't mess with
question marks. I was around two coaches in Pat Hill
at Fresno State and then Andy, who were very let's

(01:00:55):
say liberal when it came to how they view problems. Yeah,
we'll handle it now. At Fresne State, you didn't have
a choice. It was the way you could get talented
players from these other top programs, like we don't want
to deal with it past, Like I'll deal with it.
And coach Reid is very open minded, you know when
it comes to what type players is he like good ones.

(01:01:17):
You know, he would have liked Ruben Bain, he would
have liked Jeremiah Love, he would have liked r Vel Reese,
he would have liked Delaye. He fucking likes you can play,
like what's his prototype? Guys who kick ass and take
names where if you got with Shanahan. He likes you
on the straight and he's got a little Belichick to him,
like I need you to be smart, I need to
be double to do this now. Obviously, coaches want you

(01:01:38):
to be able to understand the playbook, but some guys
look at his talent. I'll make it work. Clearly, Robert
Sala is telling his GM like, I like that, let
me work with him. There would be a ton of
coaches in the NFL that would not do that. They
don't even want that project on their hands. And I
think maybe Robert sala even though Kyle he's most associated

(01:02:01):
with Kyle, I do think it's fair to say he
looks at football players a little differently, and you kind
of have to on defense. It's different offense because it'd
be a great defensive lineman. You don't need to be
you know, Peyton Manning upstairs. When it comes to football,
you just do you have the physical traits? Do you
try hard? I do think it can be very difficult.

(01:02:22):
I have to do a little more research for my
scouting buddies on the on the true question marks of
this player. But like, it can be very difficult. It's
easier to tell a guy to slow down, take it
a little easy than it is to give him a
kick in the ass, because I would imagine most kicking
the ass guys consistently need the push, not like eventually

(01:02:46):
I need you to be a self starter. I need
you to handle business. But you're not gonna need to
worry about Fernando Mendoza or Carnel Taate or Jeremiah Love,
you know, or the Ohio State guy like Caleb Downs.
You think Brian Schottenneimer's gonna have to be on Caleb
Downs about study habits, about being early to workouts, about

(01:03:07):
being prepared for practice. They ain't an issue. But in fairness,
a lot of guys you do need to be on.
And I've said this forever about followers. Most of us
are followers. The majority of people are not like natural
born follow me to freedom. Most people aren't comfortable, you know,
even if they had the capabilities of being Steve jobs Right,

(01:03:33):
of being Roger Goodell, of being pat Riley. Some people
are kind of born or I don't know if you're
born with the leadership characteristics, but as you're a young person,
they are kind of ingrained in you and you start
feeling comfortable in that seat and that's the seat that
you desire, that you like being at the head of
the table. Like clearly you watch McVeigh, he's pretty natural

(01:03:56):
in front of the room. The Hardbob brothers were fucking
born for it. Their dad was also a coach, so
from a very very young age before they ever played
high level football, Jim I in the NFL, John in college,
they saw it every day at five years old, at
eight years old, at ten years old, at twelve years old,
they just were round coaches. They saw leadership. Some people

(01:04:16):
just aren't that comfortable. I was. I think one of
the greatest songs ever played live is the Eagles Take
It to the Limit. You can YouTube it on the
nineteen seventy seven It comes right up and if you
watch the Eagles documentary, Like when you think of the Eagles,
for those of you people that love music, you'd say

(01:04:38):
their two most you know, famous lead men would be
Glenn Fry and Don Henley, Like when you just think
of the Eagles, like those are the prominent members, and
then I would say Joe Walsh is behind them. Take
It the Limit is sung by the dude play playing bass,

(01:05:01):
Randy Meisner, who I would imagine The Eagles are one
of the rare bands. Big bands, small bands, great bands,
successful bands. I'm just talking musicians historically were every member
of their band in their prime, could be the lead

(01:05:23):
singer on a hit song and when you heard that song,
it could be one of the be considered one of
the great songs of all time of its era. Pretty rare.
It's like I watched the writ Hout Chili Pepper's documentary
is Flee the lead singer in a lot of songs,
like you watched Nirvana, it's pretty rare. Their drummer turned
out to be David Grohl. Now he wasn't singing in

(01:05:46):
that band, but if they would have needed to, and
if you would have been like this is groll song
probably been pretty sweet and who knows, maybe lack the confidence.
But to tie this all together, one thing in that
Eagles documentary, Joe Wall said about Randy Meiser, because you
could argue that take it to the limit, that live performance,
It's got to be one of their best songs. For me,
it's my favorite Eagle song. And Joe Walsh used to

(01:06:08):
say because his personality got kicked out of the band,
Glenn Fry and Don Henley they could kind of be
they were alphas. They were like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.
Some people thought they were assholes, but like they owned it.
And Randy could be just, I don't want to say
a pushover, but clearly he wasn't an assertive individual. He
just kind of wanted to shape in. And Joe Walsh

(01:06:29):
used to say and set it in the documentary he
never knew how talented he was because you watched that song,
you go, is this the most talented member of the
fucking band? And I just think that's what complicates all
this stuff when it comes to talent, right, part of
being really talented in the Eagles are an example of

(01:06:51):
all these guys had. Just when it comes to musical talent,
they all could have been All pros if it was football,
they all could have been All Stars if it was basketball,
And musically you'd argue they were all Hall of famers,
but some of them are remembered a little bit more
because they were comfortable in the moment. And part of
being a really good football player is for most guys,

(01:07:14):
like you watch Micah Parsons play football, there have been
guys with his physical characteristics throughout NFL history that you
do not remember, probably didn't play that hard. When you
watch Micah Parsons play, like, goddamn, this guy's fucking playing hard.
When you watch Max Player, Aaron Donald player, like, these
guys just play their ass off. And a huge part

(01:07:38):
of football on the defensive line is effort. And it's
hard to be in great shape when you're bigger. So
part of being two hundred and seventy two and eighty
two hundred ninety three hundred Dexter Lawrence th undred fifty pounds,
you kind of have to go above and beyond because
your wind is going to go faster than Jamar Chase's.
It just is. It takes a lot to get Jamar

(01:08:00):
Chase or Justin Jefferson or Ceede Lamp for those guys
to be winded in the middle of the season. For
a big guy, you give me a hard series, I'm
sucking win. I'm carrying that guy weighs on hundred pound.
I weigh thre hundred and forty pounds. I'm caring. I'm
carrying an extra human being. Makes football fun. I've seen
you go over the Cowboys Eagles, Steelers situation with Mikayle
Lemon at the draft. My question is, why would Jerry

(01:08:23):
Person purposely block the Steelers from taking Lemon by telling
the Eagles to trade up for him instead wouldn't he
rather him go outside the division? I know the quote
regarding al Davis bonus, what the f are the Ravens
waiting for? Regarding the Lamar extension, I don't think it

(01:08:43):
was specifically about mackayle Lemon. I think if you watch
that the clip on the ESPN documentary is they knew
they could get their guy. And this is a huge
part of the draft is if you could get the
same thing for one hundred dollars, why would you pay
four hundred dollars right if you knew you could get

(01:09:03):
it for one hundred dollars. If I told you, hey,
you like golf, I'll sell you my club right now
for one thousand dollars. I'll give you the greatest driver
you're ever gonna hit for one thousand dollars. But if
someone told you can get that same driver if you
just gotta wait a couple days at this other store
for half the price, you would just wait a couple

(01:09:24):
of days for half the price. So Jerry knows that
Lawrence is gonna be there when he trades back a
couple of picks, and he can accumulate more picks because
part of the draft is just taking swings, and the
more swings you take, the more likely you're gonna hit.
So I think it was less about like, clearly they
don't view Mikayle Lemon as Jerry Rice. You know you're

(01:09:45):
not gonna lose sleep over mackay Lemon, but really your
focus on yourself. How can we add Lawrence and add picks?
And if that's the only dance partner we can get,
they got two fourth round picks out of it, it
was worth it to them. Now we'll see how it
all plays out. Did the Cowboys even use those or
they use them to trade, I'd have to go. Look.
I just think that they need a lot of help,

(01:10:09):
and the Eagles were down to dance. I don't think
they cared that much about the Steelers. They use their
inside information on Lemon to just acquire more picks, and
I think going into the draft, I kind of agree
with that. Now. I wouldn't trade if I was the
number one overall pick and I was the Cowboys and

(01:10:30):
I had Dak Prescot. Let's just say last year he
had broke his leg and the Cowboys are the worst
season of all time, they had the number one overall pick.
It's like we got Dak coming back off the broken leg.
We're not going to draft a quarterback. We're taking bids
on the quarterback, right. You would not if you liked
that quarterback. But you're like, we don't need them. We're

(01:10:51):
gonna trade this for a haul. You wouldn't trade that
inside your division. I think when it comes to the
twentieth pick in the draft, and it could come back
to Burnham, that there could be a game this year
where Lemon scores two touchdowns against them and the Eagles
beat them thirty one to twenty seven, scores a game
winner in the corner of the end zone in Dallas.
That easily could happen. I think they're hoping maybe Caleb

(01:11:11):
downs and and Lawrence, you know, pickoff Jalen Hurts and
sack them, you know. So, I think it's more about
that last few years. But as a former scout, can
you explain why they exist? I get that sounds like
a dumb question, but in your last few pods, you've
said over and over we have no bleeping clue how

(01:11:33):
a player will turn out in the NFL, and the
owners will frequently step in and decide who to draft,
which brings me to my question, why not just take
the best player available for the position most needed on
the team every pick. I saw Brandon Bean say this
the other day is he tells his scouts you're a detective.

(01:11:54):
That's seventy five eighty percent of your job. So when
you're in these meetings and in the drafts room, a
huge part of your job is to get to know
the person. Because even if you don't draft the guy,
you know. Kyle Shanahan said this the other day. He said,
you know, the shitty part about the draft is you
fall in love with guys you realize you're never going
to get him, or you know the draft doesn't break

(01:12:16):
that way, and you don't acquire them. What if you
acquire them a couple of years later. The reason you
evaluate every guy on the draft board is because even
if you don't draft, that guy won a couple of years.
The Niners are a good example. They traded a third
round pick for Osa Digazoue from the Cowboys, who I
would imagine they love coming out of the draft. The

(01:12:36):
Eagles just trade for Wicks from the Packers. What are
the chances they liked him coming out of the draft.
I don't know one hundred freaking percent. Well, you have
a lot of players that you like that go get
drafted by other teams. Gets what happened to a large
percentage of those guys, they become available the trade, they
get cut, they become free agents. So huge part of

(01:13:00):
your job as the scout is if you're gonna be
playing these guys millions of dollars, I need to know
everything about them as a human being. We'll evaluate the player,
we'll figure that out, and then once they get to
the NFL, whether they're on our team or not, we'll
figure out if they can play or not. Hey, I
can't do that. That's that's why. And I think there
are so many examples of forcing a need. We need

(01:13:23):
an offensive lineman, we take an offensive lineman, but the
offensive lineman wasn't good enough. Well, if you just take
the best player, it's it's gonna be hard to screw up,
you know. Should the Miami Dolphins have just taken Caleb
Downs or Ruben Bay like the pretty risky for them
to take the big offensive lineman out of Alabama. Yeah,
that's the knock on the on the Rams, It's like

(01:13:45):
they've got a big picture with the quarterback should they
have just taken the best player? Did they kind of
overthink the room on that one. Time will tell, But
I think a huge part of the job is to
talk to people in the program because your boots on
the ground, guys going into this couls the information they
get is pretty invaluable. I think John schnyder and Mike
McDonald are elite GM head coach combo. But your friend

(01:14:09):
Haberman his take on Seattle made me feel better. Is
it realistic for the Seahawks to be a perennial Super
Bowl contender as a team with a defensive head coach
and a non elite quarterback. It's a good question. I
think their coach is so good and he's proven since
he was a defensive coordinator, it's pretty special. Right. If

(01:14:29):
he was an offensive coordinator, we would talk about him
like McVeigh or Kyle. He's the cream of the crown.
So he's elite at his job. And a quarterback's pretty good.
So if Sam Darnold just plays like he's been playing,
I mean two years ago he threw thirty five touchdowns
and won fourteen games. And I was thinking about this today.
I wonder how much the struggles in those final two

(01:14:51):
games against the Lions and the Rams benefited him this year.
The kind of the metal callouses in the confidence he had,
like I struggled, I know what it looks like. We
can battle through it. In the one game where he
threw all the picks and I think they still won
or they almost won. Yeah, I think Seattle's gonna be fine.

(01:15:14):
They have an elite GM and elite coach. Quarterback's pretty good.
I would take that trio. You tell me you get
elite GM, an elite coach, and a solid quarterback with
big time trades and he's a great guy. I would
take that. Could you provide some insight on Alec Hallaby

(01:15:45):
and how crucial he was the Eagles, wondering if you
could share some stories or interactions with him. Rapp and
Shifty made it seem like a big deal. I actually
texted him the other day. It looks like the rumors
that he might go into find nance, he's he went
to Harvard. The guy's a genius. When I first got
hired by the Eagles, his computer screen, I can't even

(01:16:09):
describe you what it looked like because it was just
stuff you see in movies that like coders are doing.
I'm like, is this guy on a different planet than me?
And he was, because he's he's brilliant, he's really really smart,
and he's you know, he's been there obviously. You know,
I left in thirteen or fourteen, and I texted him,

(01:16:35):
I said, there aren't many guys who could be at
a place for sixteen seventeen years and win multiple Super
Bowls in one place. I think he was on the
forefront of the analytics, and when I say analytics, just
the models to help predict players. I don't know how
his role expanded over the course of the last ten years.

(01:16:55):
He clearly he was always you know, part of when
I was there, Howie's door, the department wasn't that big,
so it's like Alec, me, a couple other scouts, pro guy.
You know, everyone was kind of all together with the coaches.
I think their staff has gotten dramatically bigger. But when

(01:17:16):
I was there, he was always with Howie, always had
different models and studies. Again, the guy, I mean, I
think he's made a lot of money with Philly, but
if he out of Harvard had just gone to work
for Goldman Sachs or you know, Jamie Diamond, he'd be
running like a hedge fund and it'd probably end up

(01:17:38):
doing something like that or start like the next Facebook.
I just remember looking at his computer thinking, what is this?
Like what is happening? There? Is this what Zuckerberg and
the two water polo twins were doing in their basement,
Like who creates these? Like the type people the government

(01:17:59):
would have to just create programs that a tiny, tiny
percentage of the most intelligent people could even come close
to creating. He was just he was very good with
They're just not many NFL. You know, the scouting community

(01:18:20):
doesn't Most people don't have Harvard backgrounds. And it's not
even just went to Harvard. It was like, this guy
is intellectually on a different level. And I would imagine,
you know, I don't know the details of you know,
him and Howie over the last ten years, like his
specific role on a daily basis, but it was clear
when he was there, like he was he was a

(01:18:42):
pretty prominent figure and that was a long time ago.
So how he's really good at just I think it's
because he's so entrenched. Yeah, he's never afraid like former
gms hiring your best analytic guys, hiring some up and
coming guy from the office. They will just always hire

(01:19:03):
guys who have accomplished a lot, so I'm sure maybe
they knew this was coming. I don't know all the details,
but how Will be smart as shit when on this.
If you were an owner and ran an NFL franchise,
would you rather have? Who would you rather have as
your coach? GM Combo, Lynch and Kyle or Howie and Sirianni? Well,

(01:19:28):
the number one draft picks in this are obviously Kyle
and Howie. And I was thinking about this because I
saw the question earlier. You know what's funny is like,
I don't think Kyle could work with a Howie, and
I don't think how he would enjoy working with a Kyle.
Kyle's like a way way better Chip Kelly, but it's
like kind of his way of the highway. And Howie's

(01:19:48):
greatest attribute is like let me cook, I will give
you incredible ingredients. You just basically throw the shit in
the microwave, you know. And I don't think either one
could work together. I don't think it would work. I
think how we could figure out how to work with
a guy like Kyle. I don't think Kyle could work
without it, because how would be like, what, we don't

(01:20:11):
need to do that in Freer. You know Kyle's big
thing is in free we gotta have this guy. We
gotta have this guy. Or in the draft we gotta
have this guy. We gotta have this guy. That's not
how gms think. You're always ready to pivot the value
doesn't work. And that's why I think how he's had
a lot of success with two guys that you know,
Doug's a great guy and probably pretty average coach by

(01:20:32):
all accounts, Sirianni. Everyone likes him. I know whenever I'm
at the combine and see like Dom loves him. Dom's
got a pretty good judge character. So I'm hard on Syriann.
I think as a coach, by all accounts, people really
like the guy. Scouting buddies that work there love him.
But I don't think he's viewed as like some dynamic
head coach. But I think how he's actually like, you're

(01:20:53):
in a great Doug was in a great position and
now Nick's in a great position to have this guy
doing that. It's why when Lynch gets crushed guys, Now,
I don't know if Lynch would have the capability of
wheeling and dealing in the draft like Howie. But I
don't think it's really allowed because Kyle's like, I want
this guy now, which he's a good enough coach that

(01:21:14):
he can overcome that. But the Eagles would never neither
franchise would operate like the either. So if you told
me the two most important people in this like I
could replace Sirianni and I can replace Lynch, it's I
think your question boils down to would you rather have
Howie Roseman or Kyle Shanahan. And I think the coach

(01:21:36):
just has so much more of an impact, right if Howie,
which he has before, if you miss on some picks,
there's only so much he can do in the middle
of the season. He doesn't call the plays, he's not
coaching them up in practice, running these meetings, you can
only cut so many guys, right. If the coach wanted
a guy and you didn't, you're kind of stuck with

(01:21:57):
the contract. I think the coach is just a more
powerful tool year round in the NFL. Like you, you
would rather have a top five coach than a top
five GM. But I think like Howie and John Schneider
have proven that they are so good at their job
that if if you do give like look at John Sandery,
you hired Mike mc Mike McDonald, they won the fucking

(01:22:19):
Super Bowl. Sam Darnold, how he won the Super Bowl
with Nick Sirianni. So I would probably lean Kyle, and
I think there are similarities, like you know, how he
is not how he's intense. You know, it's not like
how he's just like feed up on his desk like
smile and all. It like it's a lot like Kyle,
Like it's an intense environment in there. I just think

(01:22:41):
once training camp starts, I think he'd be the first
to tell you a lot's out of his hands, Like
the majority of his work has really happened the last
couple of months, combine to free agency to the draft.
Now they'll do cut downs. Guys will get cut. You
can make a trade or two in season, and how
he will make several, But what trades you're gonna make.

(01:23:04):
It's not like it's like he can't trade. Obviously a J.
Brown will get traded, but in season he can't just
like wait, just uh, you know, we just need Miles Garrett.
You know, it's like it's not even possible most times.
So you send up like Jalen Phillips for a third
round because that's usually the best option you have. So
I think the question is would you rather have a

(01:23:26):
top coach or a top GM? And if I was
an owner, I think you just lean with the top coach,
and that might not be right. You know, maybe you
should lead with the top GM because if the top
GM can then just land a top coach and not
even the top you know, the number one overall coach,
but if you just give him, a good coach could
win every year. It's a great question. The volume

All Episodes

3 & Out - NFL vs NBA Draft Mindset, Burrow & Bengals Outlook, Bucs Steal & Mailbag

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Colin Cowherd

Jason McIntyre

Popular Podcasts

Hey Jonas!

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}3 & Out - NFL vs NBA Draft Mindset, Burrow & Bengals Outlook, Bucs Steal & Mailbag