Colin is joined by legendary sportswriter Ian O’Connor to talk about all things Knicks.
They start with Colin’s theory that the Knicks began their resurgence after owner James Dolan stepped away to build the Sphere and became more distracted and hands-off from running the team and letting GM Leon Rose build the roster (3:15). They discuss the reasons behind Mike Brown’s success as head coach and why he’s been able to succeed when past coaches have failed, and the change he made to the role of Karl-Anthony Towns (8:30).
They examine the Knicks supporting case and why their high effort, tough nosed style of basketball feels a bit like Villanova…but yet, it works (13:00). They discuss Jalen Brunson’s incredibly rare team friendly contract with the Knicks, and why he knew that ending the Knicks title drought would be worth far more than a few million dollars on his contract (17:30).
Finally, they discuss the future of the eastern conference with the Knicks and Celtics at the top, and why this is the best year for the Knicks to win it all (25:00).
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All right, we got thirty minutes. I wanted to bring
on Ian O'Connor, a friend and whenever there's New York stuff,
he's so well connected, and I was thinking driving home
(01:44):
today knowing you were going to be on. So I
always had this theory with the Knicks that they were
always just there was just a bad smell around the
organization for years. James Dolan fighting the press, you know,
the Charles Oakley stuff is kind of the tip of
the iceberg. There's just been a lot of uncomfortable relationships.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
And the media.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I mean I would read New York media and think
this is this is toxic. And then my theory was
James Dolan, who has great musical connections, went on about
a four year journey to Vegas and the Sphere and
he could return to New York, but he was at
(02:30):
least physically at times and emotionally a bit disconnected from
the organization. His emotion was really into the Sphere, which
has been an incredible hit, the greatest music venue in
the world, and he deserves credit. And it was about
Leon Rose gets hired and his first big hire as Tibbs.
And you know, Dolan, I'm sure had an impact on this,
(02:53):
but it does feel like and Dolan, now the Sphere
has gone, it's successful, it's done and completed, But it
does feel like there was a bit of a pivot
or a tipping point where Dolan was a bit removed
worldwide west. Leon Rose come in and kind of have
(03:13):
a lot of leverage and a lot of say is
that me sort of creating a story that doesn't exist,
because it feels like the timelines do kind of connect
the Sphere and the building of TIBs and Brunson was
the first. I think Brunson was twenty twenty two. Does
this connect or is it just am I hype farming
(03:35):
on this and hoping it's true?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
No, No, I think it connects. Colin and great to
see you listen. I remember having a conversation with James Dolan.
It was at least a two hour interview, and I
was at ESPN dot com at the time, and the
Sphere it was in its infancy, and he kept wanting
to talk about it, and I wanted to talk about
(03:58):
the Nick.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I gave his time, and some of the Sphere of
stuff was in the piece.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
In retrospect, I'm thinking I underplayed it, because you're right.
It's everybody I know who has been to that venue
has loved it, and it's a great thing. I do
think his time away, he's certainly back now and more
engaged was back then. The Sphere was a very big
part of his life in every way. People who know
him well said what you just said now. George Steinberner
(04:28):
was suspended in the early nineties, and while he was away,
Jean Michael, the executive and Buck Showalter the manager rebuilt
the Yankees, and they were a mess at the point
that Steinberner was suspended. By the time George got back,
things have been cleaned up to event, and George Steinberner
(04:48):
had a very positive impact on the Yankee dynasty of
the nineties. Is willing to suspend the urgency he creates
every day did have some positives attached to it, without questioning,
Derek Jeter would be the first person to tell you that.
So I think Dolan was away, and I also think
he looked at Bob Myers and Golden State former agent.
(05:10):
He looked at Rob Polinka with the Lakers former agent,
and he said, let me do something different. He tried
Phil Jackson as the savior of the franchise right now.
He failed with Larry Brown, failed with Isaiah Thomas, Mike D'Antoni.
There have been all kinds of coaching front office saviors
brought in under Dolan who all failed. And he tried
something different with an agent in Leon Rose.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And by the way, Leon Rose did not.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
He had his misses early on Kemball Walker, Evan Fournier,
Camrhp and Guy Ye. Tims didn't want Tims didn't want
those players, and so he got better. Leon Rose got
better and better and better, just like his team, just
like his players.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Every year.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
You have to give Dolan credit for taking the gamble
to higher Rose. My suspicion, actually it's more than a suspicion,
is that Dolan didn't really want to hire TIBs. I
think Dolan wanted to hire Jason Kidd. James Dolan when
it comes to coaches, when it comes to executives, he's
a star chaser at times, and Tibbs is a very
(06:11):
good coach, but not a charismatic figure, not a big personality.
Maybe not a star in the traditional concept of it.
But anyway, he listened to Leon Rose, who used to
represent Tibbs. It was a great hire. Tibbs did exactly
for the Knicks what Buck Showalter did for the Yankees,
cleaning up the mess, restoring competence, professionalism, accountability. But then
(06:31):
when it came time to get over the hump, Steinberger
decided to go in a different direction with his fourth
choice really for the job. In Joe Tory, a mister
nice guy had been fired a bunch of times, age
fifty five. Mike Brown, mister nice guy, age fifty five,
fired like Joe Tory by three different organizations. It really
is striking the similarities. And we'll see if Mike Brown
(06:53):
can have a little bit of that Joe Tory's success
coming up here in the coming days, and then maybe
beyond well a.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Tory it had some failures and success. Same with Mike Brown.
So they come in known as guys you know, the
Don Zimmer Joe Tory bench. I mean, Tory was known
as a guy that people liked. I always said Joe
Tory was like that really formidable step dad that you
never wanted to disappoint. And he was your little league coach.
(07:22):
And he may not have been your biological dad, but
he was just as good as your biological dad, and
he had there was a certain masculinity to Tory that
you just never wanted to disappoint Joe, and I do
think I think Mike Brown has.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
By the way, Colin Tino Martinez said those exact words
you just said. I never wanted to disappoint him because
it was like playing for my father.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
That's crazy, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Mike and Mike Brown, who's worked with Pop, who's worked
with kerr Rick Carlisle, is very much seen as a listener,
a collaborator, can enforce rules. I mean he'll go up
to Cat and say, you know, or somebody and say, hey,
your hat's on backwards, come on, let's get it together.
But by and large, somebody that players really respect and
(08:09):
like when they were struggling against Atlanta. Let's just go
back a couple sits. I remember watching that thinking CJ.
McCollum is going to knock the Knicks out of the playoffs?
What the hell am I watching? They were a bad
team in March. Who got in Brown's ear on the
Carl Anthony Towns tweak.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I think Towns made the suggestion initially, but uh, And
I don't take anything away from Brown's decision if it
wasn't his original idea, because that's why they hired him,
and that's why. Now, Tom Thibodeau did a very good job,
and he didn't deserve to be fired. He took the
next to the Conference finals last year for the first
a quarter century. You don't get fired off of that
(08:47):
beat the Celtics, and you look at the way they
knocked out the Celtics. That route that Game six was
was unbelievable. He didn't deserve to be fired. But Mike
Brown was a great hire for the reason that Dolan
and Leon Rose stated. So both things can be true
at the same time. TIB's got an unfair deal, but
Mike Brown actually was better for this team. Now, if
(09:09):
you're a TIBs supporter, you might say, well, if he
had Atlanta, Philly and Cleveland, he would have gone to
the finals too, Right, So anyway, I'm sure he's sitting
at home and it hurts right to see the team
you built and put together now being led by somebody else,
probably maybe to a championship. But so let's Kat makes
the initial suggestion, but Mike Brown acts on it. And
(09:31):
here's where you got to give Brown a lot of credit.
He knows he's been around the league's been fired four
times by three different franchises. If this goes sideways, I
take one of my two franchise cornerstones with brunts and
Kat being the other, and I turn him into a
point guard at seven feet tall. And if this doesn't work,
I'm done. I mean he is one and done and
(09:52):
getting fired, and that is it, and they're blown up
that roster. If they lose to Atlanta, they're down two
to one. It looked like Quinn Snyder was out coaching him,
and I gave him all the credit in the world
for not fearing the consequences of a potential disaster. They're
losing that first round series to Atlanta and deciding, you
know what, cat right, this would be better for this
team right now and lo and behold. Ever since then,
(10:14):
basically the Knicks have not lost. And it unlocked everything
about the offense that you hadn't seen before, and Jalen
brunts and getting him off the ball a little bit. Man,
the Knicks have been an entirely different team ever since
Brown made that move.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
There, I was talking one time. I said something about
Villanova guys on the air, and Jay Wright reached out
to me and texted me and he said, you know,
he goes You've always been so respectful of Villanova, And
I said, you know, I covered Jay when he was
at UNLV under Rollie Massamino, the late Roly Masamino. And
I remember meeting Jad. I was a sportscaster in Vegas,
and you knew immediately he was going to be a star.
I mean, he was like twenty six. He looked like
(10:51):
George Clooney. I'm like, oh, this guy can recruit. So
he ends up at Villanova. And I always felt that
of all the basketball programs in the country, Villanova's was
sort of the anti Calipari. It's like, we're gonna go
get We're gonna recruit from the DMV we're gonna get
cops kids. We're gonna get tough kids that play defense,
more three star offen than four or five. But they're
gonna stay here, They're gonna go to class, they're gonna
(11:12):
be leaders. And it may sound cliche, but I don't
think it is. Josh Hart, Bridges, Bruntson, We're all sensational
in Game one in their own way, right, the rebounding
with heart, Bridges who finally missed a free throw, which
almost never happens, Brunson's closing despite an off shooting eye.
He was great in the fourth. There is something I
(11:35):
believe this to be true because the Knicks camaraderie is
almost collegiate. I mean, remember, the Spurs are drafted and
develop and they're mostly the same age. The Knicks art
trade for this guy, trade for that guy, acquire that guy,
free agent that guy. It could very easily be a
disjointed locker room. Yet it's not that yet. They're I
(11:58):
mean they seem to. I mean they are big personalities
and big stars in New York, elevated by the media,
and it does feel like the villanova thing isn't just
a term or you know, a cliche. The Knicks feels
strangely close for a professional team that came from different organizations, franchises, coasts, backgrounds.
(12:26):
That's what it feels like to me.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah, And that's what it feels like to wal Frasier,
who I talked to last night and I've talked with
him about this in the past. Dave de Busher's family
I talked to, and they're all saying the same thing.
This reminds us of the sort of there was a
camelot in New York in the early seventies with the
Red Holtzman Knicks. The way they shared the ball, people
of backgrounds and races coming together and really a love
(12:49):
affair between the city and that team, that one in
seventy and seventy three at the expense of Will Chamberlain
and the Lakers, and those are the only two championships
the Knicks have ever won, believe it or not. And
so the way they share the ball on Mike Brown's team,
the way they play defense, and.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
They clearly play with a joy, they play for one another.
In colin I think this is not rare in New York.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
But what I really like about covering this team as
a columnist is they are likable human beings. Mike Brown likable,
Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns and the rest of them,
the Villanova guys. You know, that's a program. Jay Wright
wanted the best to ever do it. They don't just
have a team, they have a program. They build people,
and they build players. There really complete people and players.
(13:30):
And having the three of them together. I understand it
was five first round picks for McHale Bridges, but I
was all for getting Bridges, and I actually had tweets
they traded him. But I listen, if you told me
five first round picks, I'd be like, maybe I'm not
so all for him anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
I would have maybe said three or four.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
But it's worked out and Leon Rose has done a
great job of putting character high character people in that
locker room. Carl Anthony town is a very quick story.
He has a relationship with a woman who's son was
killed in Afghanistan a US marine. Yes, typically because the
son went to Katz High School Saint Jose Mtuchein.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
He never met the soldier.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
He was a different age, ten years younger, and he
did a very simple gesture in a basketball game. He
scored twenty five points and stopped at twenty five to
honor the soldier who was twenty five when he was killed.
And he's still friends with that woman today, had her
at a recent game, and it just common decency. I
see that in these Knicks. They are very genuine people,
makes them easy to root for. And maybe you wouldn't
(14:34):
have said that ordinarily about a James Dolan team, but
this is a very very likable, embraceable group and that's
part of the reason why the entire region has really
rallied behind this team. Unlike I've covered what five Yankees
championship teams, I've covered two Giants championship teams and some
(14:54):
other really good teams with the Knicks in the nineties.
But this team is as well liked, I think by
the city as any I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, it's And for the record, let me defend the
Knicks on the five draft picks. That was pre nil,
when the drafts were increasingly sporadic and awful. Now this
year's draft is a bona fide nil draft where many
players stayed in longer so giving up. You know, Rudy
Gobert got nine picks. Rudy Gobert today would get three,
(15:23):
Michale would get two. But at that time, I mean
it was a one and done. I mean were you
were drafting kids who weren't ready to play. So there
were some bad drafts for about a ten year stretch.
So it sounds outrageous to say five picks that's what
you give up now for maybe a Yannis. But at
that time, you know, Rudy Gobert a couple of years
ago got nine. He got played off the floor by Wemby.
(15:46):
So I'll defend I will defend the Knicks. Brunson's fascinating
because if I said to you name two stars in
the NBA that took team friendly deals, you'd say Brunson,
and you couldn't another. It's really you hear about it
in football for quarterbacks, and you do not hear it.
That's right, you do not hear it in the NBA.
(16:08):
Let's go back to that signing, because I think that
is so rare in pro basketball. Let's go back to
that deal when it was signed. I remember reading about it,
you were living it. How is it perceived by teammates
and people in the organization that an NBA player emerging
as a star, Hey, I'm going to take much less
(16:29):
than I could.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well, I think he'll make that up down down the road,
and oh he will.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
That's part of it. But I also think it showed
he got it.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Like, hey, if I'm the guy who ends a fifty
three year or whatever, it would have been fifty four
to fifty five year drought in New York City, a
great basketball town that's been asleep for a long time.
If I'm the one who does that, that is worth
so much more than another five, ten, fifteen, twenty million dollars.
And he got it then, you know, partly because maybe
(17:00):
he came out of a program that taught those values
at Villanova. That and when you make a certain amount
of money, how much do you need for one? And
that's priceless and you ask, well, you know, Unfortunately Willis
is no longer with us, But so I used to
talk to him about it, and I talked to well
Fraser about it last night, and actually Walt said that
(17:21):
Brunson is a combination of the two of them. He
has the tenacity of Willis reed and he's as cool
as I am basically as well.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
That's a pretty good combination to have.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And I used to have a lot of conversations with
Willis Reed, and we were all I was eight years
old when they won their last title in nineteen seventy three.
I do remember that team, and we've all been waiting
for a team to be like that.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
The nineties Knicks were really good.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
They weren't good enough to beat Jordan or Elijah on
but they were really good, rugged, physical, Big ten football teams.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
This team is different.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
This team is like the seventies Knicks, and Brunson is
the biggest reason why. He leads with the generosity of spirit,
brings people in and just talked earlier today. I asked
him a question about the fan support on the road,
which has been just off the charts for the Knicks.
He said, his wife and Jalen and family, they never
(18:16):
take that for granted. They've been feeling the love ever
since he arrived in New.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
York and that was it. Listen.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
It's one of the greatest signings in the history of
New York sports when you consider he was so undervalued
and Mavericks could have paid to keep them right, it
would have been a bargain and a half if they
kept him. And I will say this, if the Knicks
win it all, there should be a statue at some
point outside the Garden of bruntson and also a second
(18:45):
statue of whoever the official was in the organization who
authorized the tampering that was necessary to get Jalen Brunton
to sign. And because you know the Knicks loss, they
what a twenty twenty five second round pick for tampering.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
That is the great case of all time. Right you said,
all right, you got it sorted.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
I don't want to say cheap, but ben the rules,
maybe break them a little. Get Jalen Brunson. We're going
to take a second round pick from you in twenty
twenty five. I think you would make that deal.
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(21:00):
I'll leave you with this. I said this on the
show today. It was about a year ago that we
really wondered if the Knicks the future in the East
was going to belong to the Celtics, right where like
the Celtics the GM is so smart, Missoula's come into
his own and you know, the Knicks had beaten him.
(21:20):
Tatum gets hurt. But there was a kind of a
feeling that the Celtics were sort of the north star
in the East, right, they were kind of you know,
from Danny Ainge to Brad Stevens. This year, the worst
quarter of scoring for the Celtics was the fourth. The
Knicks were the best net rating fourth quarter offense in
(21:43):
the entire sport. The team loves Brunson, Jalen Brunson, and
Tatum to this point don't appear to be close at all.
The Knicks, because of the pay cut by Brunson, have
an old, veteran, talented frontline. The Knicks had to bail
on porzingis Al Horford because of Tatum and Brown making
(22:06):
one hundred and twenty million either this year next year,
seventy percent.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Of the cap.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
And I'm watching that game in the fourth quarter, and
I'm like, the Knicks have become the anti Celtics. They're
not dependent on the three, They're best quarters the fourth.
Everybody loves their star player. There's never a confusion on
who gets the ball. And you know, and I was thinking,
even if the Knicks lose this game or lose this series,
(22:33):
this feels like a championship team and not for like
one or two years. I mean, og Prime Bridges Prime
for what Mitchell Robinson does it ages well, Like I
feel like the outcome of this championship doesn't really you know,
you've always got to tweak, you know, you lose somebody
if you win a title. But it feels like this
(22:55):
is a sustainable group. Does it not for two or
three seasons.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Well, and it does.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
The problem is you're talking to somebody who thought that
in ninety four, thought that in ninety seven, thought that
in ninety nine the Knicks will get back. In two thousand,
they lose to the Pacers in the playoffs, and then
they're not back for twenty seven years. In the NBA Finals,
So I think, listen, when the Nuggets won, I was like, gee,
they look like they can win.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Same same three the Spurs.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Okay, I thought the thunder were going to repeat this year.
Then I thought the Celtics were going before that. So listen,
and I wrote a column along these lines the other day.
The Knicks have never been this hot, never been this healthy.
They're starting five anyway, Mitchell Robinson and the broken pinky finger.
If you don't win a title with that, you didn't
deserve to win a title, because at this point of
(23:44):
the year usually your injury concern is a little more
severe than that.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
And so they are.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Healthy, they are hot, They're playing an opponent who's just
getting started. They're not established as a champion yet they
will be. We're all pretty certain of that. With Wemby,
and you have a coach who is so connected with
his team, A superstar is so connected with his teammates.
When is it ever going to be this set of
circumstances as good for the Knicks as it is right now,
(24:12):
and they've waited twenty seven years to get back to
the finals. To me, it is almost a now and
never situation. I'm not saying literally, I would punt on
the rest of Jalen Brunson's prime if they don't win
this championship. But I just don't see how it will
ever be better for them as opposed to right now
(24:33):
when the Spurs get going. Who knows it's possible they
can win three out of five with Wemby and Castle
and Dylan Harper, who looks like he's going to be
really good. I'm not quite sure why I only play
three and a half minutes in the fourth quarter. Nobody
is so I feel like, yes, if you told me
the Knicks are going to win two of the next
(24:54):
four championships, including this one, I'd accept that. But I've
lived through too much and seen too much, and I
thought for sure they'd get one in the nineties. They're
up three to two and ninety four on Houston in
the finals, they lose game six and seven, and.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
It's just so I feel like.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
They understand that, and Mike Brown's been through a lot
and this is their time, this is their moment. They're
up one zero now in the game they probably shouldn't
have won, and they need to win this championship. And yes,
they could come back next year. I'm not if I'm
a Knicks fan, particularly of my age, I'm not willing
to wait. I let somebody else go through a painful progression.
(25:33):
We're tired of doing that. So that's how I would feel.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Great stuff, man, Yeah, no, thank you, Colin.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
It was always it's always a pleasure to be with you,
and very much appreciate it.
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All right, we got thirty minutes. I wanted to bring
on Ian O'Connor, a friend and whenever there's New York stuff,
he's so well connected, and I was thinking driving home
(01:44):
today knowing you were going to be on. So I
always had this theory with the Knicks that they were
always just there was just a bad smell around the
organization for years. James Dolan fighting the press, you know,
the Charles Oakley stuff is kind of the tip of
the iceberg. There's just been a lot of uncomfortable relationships.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
And the media.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I mean I would read New York media and think
this is this is toxic. And then my theory was
James Dolan, who has great musical connections, went on about
a four year journey to Vegas and the Sphere and
he could return to New York, but he was at
(02:30):
least physically at times and emotionally a bit disconnected from
the organization. His emotion was really into the Sphere, which
has been an incredible hit, the greatest music venue in
the world, and he deserves credit. And it was about
Leon Rose gets hired and his first big hire as Tibbs.
And you know, Dolan, I'm sure had an impact on this,
(02:53):
but it does feel like and Dolan, now the Sphere
has gone, it's successful, it's done and completed, But it
does feel like there was a bit of a pivot
or a tipping point where Dolan was a bit removed
worldwide west. Leon Rose come in and kind of have
(03:13):
a lot of leverage and a lot of say is
that me sort of creating a story that doesn't exist,
because it feels like the timelines do kind of connect
the Sphere and the building of TIBs and Brunson was
the first. I think Brunson was twenty twenty two. Does
this connect or is it just am I hype farming
(03:35):
on this and hoping it's true?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
No, No, I think it connects. Colin and great to
see you listen. I remember having a conversation with James Dolan.
It was at least a two hour interview, and I
was at ESPN dot com at the time, and the
Sphere it was in its infancy, and he kept wanting
to talk about it, and I wanted to talk about
(03:58):
the Nick.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I gave his time, and some of the Sphere of
stuff was in the piece.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
In retrospect, I'm thinking I underplayed it, because you're right.
It's everybody I know who has been to that venue
has loved it, and it's a great thing. I do
think his time away, he's certainly back now and more
engaged was back then. The Sphere was a very big
part of his life in every way. People who know
him well said what you just said now. George Steinberner
(04:28):
was suspended in the early nineties, and while he was away,
Jean Michael, the executive and Buck Showalter the manager rebuilt
the Yankees, and they were a mess at the point
that Steinberner was suspended. By the time George got back,
things have been cleaned up to event, and George Steinberner
(04:48):
had a very positive impact on the Yankee dynasty of
the nineties. Is willing to suspend the urgency he creates
every day did have some positives attached to it, without questioning,
Derek Jeter would be the first person to tell you that.
So I think Dolan was away, and I also think
he looked at Bob Myers and Golden State former agent.
(05:10):
He looked at Rob Polinka with the Lakers former agent,
and he said, let me do something different. He tried
Phil Jackson as the savior of the franchise right now.
He failed with Larry Brown, failed with Isaiah Thomas, Mike D'Antoni.
There have been all kinds of coaching front office saviors
brought in under Dolan who all failed. And he tried
something different with an agent in Leon Rose.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And by the way, Leon Rose did not.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
He had his misses early on Kemball Walker, Evan Fournier,
Camrhp and Guy Ye. Tims didn't want Tims didn't want
those players, and so he got better. Leon Rose got
better and better and better, just like his team, just
like his players.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Every year.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
You have to give Dolan credit for taking the gamble
to higher Rose. My suspicion, actually it's more than a suspicion,
is that Dolan didn't really want to hire TIBs. I
think Dolan wanted to hire Jason Kidd. James Dolan when
it comes to coaches, when it comes to executives, he's
a star chaser at times, and Tibbs is a very
(06:11):
good coach, but not a charismatic figure, not a big personality.
Maybe not a star in the traditional concept of it.
But anyway, he listened to Leon Rose, who used to
represent Tibbs. It was a great hire. Tibbs did exactly
for the Knicks what Buck Showalter did for the Yankees,
cleaning up the mess, restoring competence, professionalism, accountability. But then
(06:31):
when it came time to get over the hump, Steinberger
decided to go in a different direction with his fourth
choice really for the job. In Joe Tory, a mister
nice guy had been fired a bunch of times, age
fifty five. Mike Brown, mister nice guy, age fifty five,
fired like Joe Tory by three different organizations. It really
is striking the similarities. And we'll see if Mike Brown
(06:53):
can have a little bit of that Joe Tory's success
coming up here in the coming days, and then maybe
beyond well a.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Tory it had some failures and success. Same with Mike Brown.
So they come in known as guys you know, the
Don Zimmer Joe Tory bench. I mean, Tory was known
as a guy that people liked. I always said Joe
Tory was like that really formidable step dad that you
never wanted to disappoint. And he was your little league coach.
(07:22):
And he may not have been your biological dad, but
he was just as good as your biological dad, and
he had there was a certain masculinity to Tory that
you just never wanted to disappoint Joe, and I do
think I think Mike Brown has.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
By the way, Colin Tino Martinez said those exact words
you just said. I never wanted to disappoint him because
it was like playing for my father.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
That's crazy, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Mike and Mike Brown, who's worked with Pop, who's worked
with kerr Rick Carlisle, is very much seen as a listener,
a collaborator, can enforce rules. I mean he'll go up
to Cat and say, you know, or somebody and say, hey,
your hat's on backwards, come on, let's get it together.
But by and large, somebody that players really respect and
(08:09):
like when they were struggling against Atlanta. Let's just go
back a couple sits. I remember watching that thinking CJ.
McCollum is going to knock the Knicks out of the playoffs?
What the hell am I watching? They were a bad
team in March. Who got in Brown's ear on the
Carl Anthony Towns tweak.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I think Towns made the suggestion initially, but uh, And
I don't take anything away from Brown's decision if it
wasn't his original idea, because that's why they hired him,
and that's why. Now, Tom Thibodeau did a very good job,
and he didn't deserve to be fired. He took the
next to the Conference finals last year for the first
a quarter century. You don't get fired off of that
(08:47):
beat the Celtics, and you look at the way they
knocked out the Celtics. That route that Game six was
was unbelievable. He didn't deserve to be fired. But Mike
Brown was a great hire for the reason that Dolan
and Leon Rose stated. So both things can be true
at the same time. TIB's got an unfair deal, but
Mike Brown actually was better for this team. Now, if
(09:09):
you're a TIBs supporter, you might say, well, if he
had Atlanta, Philly and Cleveland, he would have gone to
the finals too, Right, So anyway, I'm sure he's sitting
at home and it hurts right to see the team
you built and put together now being led by somebody else,
probably maybe to a championship. But so let's Kat makes
the initial suggestion, but Mike Brown acts on it. And
(09:31):
here's where you got to give Brown a lot of credit.
He knows he's been around the league's been fired four
times by three different franchises. If this goes sideways, I
take one of my two franchise cornerstones with brunts and
Kat being the other, and I turn him into a
point guard at seven feet tall. And if this doesn't work,
I'm done. I mean he is one and done and
(09:52):
getting fired, and that is it, and they're blown up
that roster. If they lose to Atlanta, they're down two
to one. It looked like Quinn Snyder was out coaching him,
and I gave him all the credit in the world
for not fearing the consequences of a potential disaster. They're
losing that first round series to Atlanta and deciding, you
know what, cat right, this would be better for this
team right now and lo and behold. Ever since then,
(10:14):
basically the Knicks have not lost. And it unlocked everything
about the offense that you hadn't seen before, and Jalen
brunts and getting him off the ball a little bit. Man,
the Knicks have been an entirely different team ever since
Brown made that move.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
There, I was talking one time. I said something about
Villanova guys on the air, and Jay Wright reached out
to me and texted me and he said, you know,
he goes You've always been so respectful of Villanova, And
I said, you know, I covered Jay when he was
at UNLV under Rollie Massamino, the late Roly Masamino. And
I remember meeting Jad. I was a sportscaster in Vegas,
and you knew immediately he was going to be a star.
I mean, he was like twenty six. He looked like
(10:51):
George Clooney. I'm like, oh, this guy can recruit. So
he ends up at Villanova. And I always felt that
of all the basketball programs in the country, Villanova's was
sort of the anti Calipari. It's like, we're gonna go
get We're gonna recruit from the DMV we're gonna get
cops kids. We're gonna get tough kids that play defense,
more three star offen than four or five. But they're
gonna stay here, They're gonna go to class, they're gonna
(11:12):
be leaders. And it may sound cliche, but I don't
think it is. Josh Hart, Bridges, Bruntson, We're all sensational
in Game one in their own way, right, the rebounding
with heart, Bridges who finally missed a free throw, which
almost never happens, Brunson's closing despite an off shooting eye.
He was great in the fourth. There is something I
(11:35):
believe this to be true because the Knicks camaraderie is
almost collegiate. I mean, remember, the Spurs are drafted and
develop and they're mostly the same age. The Knicks art
trade for this guy, trade for that guy, acquire that guy,
free agent that guy. It could very easily be a
disjointed locker room. Yet it's not that yet. They're I
(11:58):
mean they seem to. I mean they are big personalities
and big stars in New York, elevated by the media,
and it does feel like the villanova thing isn't just
a term or you know, a cliche. The Knicks feels
strangely close for a professional team that came from different organizations, franchises, coasts, backgrounds.
(12:26):
That's what it feels like to me.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah, And that's what it feels like to wal Frasier,
who I talked to last night and I've talked with
him about this in the past. Dave de Busher's family
I talked to, and they're all saying the same thing.
This reminds us of the sort of there was a
camelot in New York in the early seventies with the
Red Holtzman Knicks. The way they shared the ball, people
of backgrounds and races coming together and really a love
(12:49):
affair between the city and that team, that one in
seventy and seventy three at the expense of Will Chamberlain
and the Lakers, and those are the only two championships
the Knicks have ever won, believe it or not. And
so the way they share the ball on Mike Brown's team,
the way they play defense, and.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
They clearly play with a joy, they play for one another.
In colin I think this is not rare in New York.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
But what I really like about covering this team as
a columnist is they are likable human beings. Mike Brown likable,
Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns and the rest of them,
the Villanova guys. You know, that's a program. Jay Wright
wanted the best to ever do it. They don't just
have a team, they have a program. They build people,
and they build players. There really complete people and players.
(13:30):
And having the three of them together. I understand it
was five first round picks for McHale Bridges, but I
was all for getting Bridges, and I actually had tweets
they traded him. But I listen, if you told me
five first round picks, I'd be like, maybe I'm not
so all for him anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
I would have maybe said three or four.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
But it's worked out and Leon Rose has done a
great job of putting character high character people in that
locker room. Carl Anthony town is a very quick story.
He has a relationship with a woman who's son was
killed in Afghanistan a US marine. Yes, typically because the
son went to Katz High School Saint Jose Mtuchein.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
He never met the soldier.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
He was a different age, ten years younger, and he
did a very simple gesture in a basketball game. He
scored twenty five points and stopped at twenty five to
honor the soldier who was twenty five when he was killed.
And he's still friends with that woman today, had her
at a recent game, and it just common decency. I
see that in these Knicks. They are very genuine people,
makes them easy to root for. And maybe you wouldn't
(14:34):
have said that ordinarily about a James Dolan team, but
this is a very very likable, embraceable group and that's
part of the reason why the entire region has really
rallied behind this team. Unlike I've covered what five Yankees
championship teams, I've covered two Giants championship teams and some
(14:54):
other really good teams with the Knicks in the nineties.
But this team is as well liked, I think by
the city as any I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, it's And for the record, let me defend the
Knicks on the five draft picks. That was pre nil,
when the drafts were increasingly sporadic and awful. Now this
year's draft is a bona fide nil draft where many
players stayed in longer so giving up. You know, Rudy
Gobert got nine picks. Rudy Gobert today would get three,
(15:23):
Michale would get two. But at that time, I mean
it was a one and done. I mean were you
were drafting kids who weren't ready to play. So there
were some bad drafts for about a ten year stretch.
So it sounds outrageous to say five picks that's what
you give up now for maybe a Yannis. But at
that time, you know, Rudy Gobert a couple of years
ago got nine. He got played off the floor by Wemby.
(15:46):
So I'll defend I will defend the Knicks. Brunson's fascinating
because if I said to you name two stars in
the NBA that took team friendly deals, you'd say Brunson,
and you couldn't another. It's really you hear about it
in football for quarterbacks, and you do not hear it.
That's right, you do not hear it in the NBA.
(16:08):
Let's go back to that signing, because I think that
is so rare in pro basketball. Let's go back to
that deal when it was signed. I remember reading about it,
you were living it. How is it perceived by teammates
and people in the organization that an NBA player emerging
as a star, Hey, I'm going to take much less
(16:29):
than I could.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well, I think he'll make that up down down the road,
and oh he will.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
That's part of it. But I also think it showed
he got it.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Like, hey, if I'm the guy who ends a fifty
three year or whatever, it would have been fifty four
to fifty five year drought in New York City, a
great basketball town that's been asleep for a long time.
If I'm the one who does that, that is worth
so much more than another five, ten, fifteen, twenty million dollars.
And he got it then, you know, partly because maybe
(17:00):
he came out of a program that taught those values
at Villanova. That and when you make a certain amount
of money, how much do you need for one? And
that's priceless and you ask, well, you know, Unfortunately Willis
is no longer with us, But so I used to
talk to him about it, and I talked to well
Fraser about it last night, and actually Walt said that
(17:21):
Brunson is a combination of the two of them. He
has the tenacity of Willis reed and he's as cool
as I am basically as well.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
That's a pretty good combination to have.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And I used to have a lot of conversations with
Willis Reed, and we were all I was eight years
old when they won their last title in nineteen seventy three.
I do remember that team, and we've all been waiting
for a team to be like that.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
The nineties Knicks were really good.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
They weren't good enough to beat Jordan or Elijah on
but they were really good, rugged, physical, Big ten football teams.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
This team is different.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
This team is like the seventies Knicks, and Brunson is
the biggest reason why. He leads with the generosity of spirit,
brings people in and just talked earlier today. I asked
him a question about the fan support on the road,
which has been just off the charts for the Knicks.
He said, his wife and Jalen and family, they never
(18:16):
take that for granted. They've been feeling the love ever
since he arrived in New.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
York and that was it. Listen.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
It's one of the greatest signings in the history of
New York sports when you consider he was so undervalued
and Mavericks could have paid to keep them right, it
would have been a bargain and a half if they
kept him. And I will say this, if the Knicks
win it all, there should be a statue at some
point outside the Garden of bruntson and also a second
(18:45):
statue of whoever the official was in the organization who
authorized the tampering that was necessary to get Jalen Brunton
to sign. And because you know the Knicks loss, they
what a twenty twenty five second round pick for tampering.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
That is the great case of all time. Right you said,
all right, you got it sorted.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
I don't want to say cheap, but ben the rules,
maybe break them a little. Get Jalen Brunson. We're going
to take a second round pick from you in twenty
twenty five. I think you would make that deal.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
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(21:00):
I'll leave you with this. I said this on the
show today. It was about a year ago that we
really wondered if the Knicks the future in the East
was going to belong to the Celtics, right where like
the Celtics the GM is so smart, Missoula's come into
his own and you know, the Knicks had beaten him.
(21:20):
Tatum gets hurt. But there was a kind of a
feeling that the Celtics were sort of the north star
in the East, right, they were kind of you know,
from Danny Ainge to Brad Stevens. This year, the worst
quarter of scoring for the Celtics was the fourth. The
Knicks were the best net rating fourth quarter offense in
(21:43):
the entire sport. The team loves Brunson, Jalen Brunson, and
Tatum to this point don't appear to be close at all.
The Knicks, because of the pay cut by Brunson, have
an old, veteran, talented frontline. The Knicks had to bail
on porzingis Al Horford because of Tatum and Brown making
(22:06):
one hundred and twenty million either this year next year,
seventy percent.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Of the cap.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
And I'm watching that game in the fourth quarter, and
I'm like, the Knicks have become the anti Celtics. They're
not dependent on the three, They're best quarters the fourth.
Everybody loves their star player. There's never a confusion on
who gets the ball. And you know, and I was thinking,
even if the Knicks lose this game or lose this series,
(22:33):
this feels like a championship team and not for like
one or two years. I mean, og Prime Bridges Prime
for what Mitchell Robinson does it ages well, Like I
feel like the outcome of this championship doesn't really you know,
you've always got to tweak, you know, you lose somebody
if you win a title. But it feels like this
(22:55):
is a sustainable group. Does it not for two or
three seasons.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Well, and it does.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
The problem is you're talking to somebody who thought that
in ninety four, thought that in ninety seven, thought that
in ninety nine the Knicks will get back. In two thousand,
they lose to the Pacers in the playoffs, and then
they're not back for twenty seven years. In the NBA Finals,
So I think, listen, when the Nuggets won, I was like, gee,
they look like they can win.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Same same three the Spurs.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Okay, I thought the thunder were going to repeat this year.
Then I thought the Celtics were going before that. So listen,
and I wrote a column along these lines the other day.
The Knicks have never been this hot, never been this healthy.
They're starting five anyway, Mitchell Robinson and the broken pinky finger.
If you don't win a title with that, you didn't
deserve to win a title, because at this point of
(23:44):
the year usually your injury concern is a little more
severe than that.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
And so they are.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Healthy, they are hot, They're playing an opponent who's just
getting started. They're not established as a champion yet they
will be. We're all pretty certain of that. With Wemby,
and you have a coach who is so connected with
his team, A superstar is so connected with his teammates.
When is it ever going to be this set of
circumstances as good for the Knicks as it is right now,
(24:12):
and they've waited twenty seven years to get back to
the finals. To me, it is almost a now and
never situation. I'm not saying literally, I would punt on
the rest of Jalen Brunson's prime if they don't win
this championship. But I just don't see how it will
ever be better for them as opposed to right now
(24:33):
when the Spurs get going. Who knows it's possible they
can win three out of five with Wemby and Castle
and Dylan Harper, who looks like he's going to be
really good. I'm not quite sure why I only play
three and a half minutes in the fourth quarter. Nobody
is so I feel like, yes, if you told me
the Knicks are going to win two of the next
(24:54):
four championships, including this one, I'd accept that. But I've
lived through too much and seen too much, and I
thought for sure they'd get one in the nineties. They're
up three to two and ninety four on Houston in
the finals, they lose game six and seven, and.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
It's just so I feel like.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
They understand that, and Mike Brown's been through a lot
and this is their time, this is their moment. They're
up one zero now in the game they probably shouldn't
have won, and they need to win this championship. And yes,
they could come back next year. I'm not if I'm
a Knicks fan, particularly of my age, I'm not willing
to wait. I let somebody else go through a painful progression.
(25:33):
We're tired of doing that. So that's how I would feel.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Great stuff, man, Yeah, no, thank you, Colin.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
It was always it's always a pleasure to be with you,
and very much appreciate it.
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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