Colin is joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight” to break down the Knicks win over the Spurs in the NBA Finals.
They start with Colin highlighting the physical play that the referees allow in the playoffs was too much for Wemby and his thin frame, and Jason argues that Wemby is built to be more of a perimeter player (3:15). Colin argues that Jalen Brunson is the greatest leader in Knicks history, and Jason explains how Brunson uses his creativity to make up for his lack of physical traits (9:00).
Colin believes that the loss will benefit the Spurs in the long run, and make them even better going forward, and they discuss how age and experience won the series for the Knicks (13:15).
Jason argues that the Spurs guards made some bad mistakes driving into the Knicks defense, and became too reliant on De’Aaron Fox taking pull up jumpers (19:00). They also debate what the Knicks will look like in a year and they both agree that the Knicks aren’t going anywhere (28:30).
They pivot to the Lakers and debate whether the should pay or trade Austin Reeves, and what type of talent to put around him should they keep him (35:45).
Finally, they discuss how everything came together in order for the Knicks to win the championship, and why it will be difficult for them to repeat (40:30).
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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friend within fourteen days. Terms apply. Well, there's so many
(01:12):
places to go now that the NBA season is over.
Jason timp hoops tonight is joining us and he's done
remarkable work. Are iron man our Jalen Brunson putting in
the minutes. I was talking to somebody in basketball this morning, Jason.
Then they said, you know, you can look at Wemby
and say he just couldn't you know, he got moved
(01:34):
off the block and he got pushed around, and this
person said, go to the Warriors. Championship over the Celtics
wasn't led by Biggs. Oklahoma City wasn't led by Biggs.
You can go back to final after final after final
after final. The Knicks, by the way, weren't led by Biggs.
(01:54):
Jalen Brunson, the only recent championship we have had were
a big. Everything funneled through him was Jokish, and Yokis
isn't even your classic big. He's an offensive hub and
a great perimeter shooter. And that Wemby discovered and the
Spurs will discover this is Dylan Harper has to shoot threes. Eventually,
(02:17):
they have to be better from the perimeter, because the
NBA allows you, especially in the finals, a physical level
of play that is not tolerated even in the conference finals,
and that by and large the NIXT for a prime
example Oklahoma City, you know the size of Minnesota. The
good teams have multiple bigs and then they have a
(02:38):
power forward a Julius Randall. Ish. Wenby discovered what everybody
does in the finals, even maybe early shocked before he
got bigger and stronger, which is the finals. It's a
it's rough living for bigs and Wemby's body type and
maybe I should have predicted this. I had the spurs
and six, I should have predicted this is it. Yes,
(03:01):
Wemby was going to get pushed around and that this
is the reality. It is a wing league largely. We've
been talking about this for years and Wemby is just
the latest big guy to realize the finals it's treacherous.
It's the deep and choppy waters.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, you know, I think even when you look at Jokic,
ever since that twenty twenty three run, he's kind of struggled.
Teams have been beating him up. I mean, like like
Rudy Gobert has done a number on him. In twenty
twenty four and twenty twenty six. Both Naseried and Julius
raynall have had moments against him. Even in that OKC
series last year, he was super inefficient outside of a
(03:44):
couple of games, and famously in Game seven, they were like, well,
what if we just don't let him catch the ball
by just swarming him in fronting him. And I think
there's as the league has shifted towards. I've talked about
this a lot on the show. Everyone talks about hand check, like, oh, well,
handchecking changed in two thousand and three, and it's like, well, actually,
if you look throughout NBA history, there's a constant back
(04:07):
and forth, like a pendulum that swings between more physical
Oh wait, it's too ugly, the scoring's too low, let's
loosen it up. Oh now it's too loose and everyone's
scoring too much. And we go back and forth, and
we're clearly heading into one of those more physical eras.
And what it's done is it's made it so that
the power players, they're the ones that deal with what
(04:28):
is allowed most physically, which is for you to beat
the heck out of these dudes. And what's interesting with
the guards you're allowed to beat them up off ball,
but as soon as they get the ball, you gotta
have your hands off. And so it turns into a
dynamic that's actually pretty advantageous to those guys. And I mean,
Jay Brunson gets fifteen free throw attempts last night, and
a lot of it is just whenever he goes anywhere
(04:50):
with force and he gets bumped, he just kind of
falls over and the next thing you know, they're blowing
the whistle and he's getting free throws. And I do
think that with Wemby, and I've said this on your
show before, I think there's this misinterpretation of his future
like that he's going to become some sort of post
up weapon, and I just don't see it that way.
I think he's got a high center of gravity that's
(05:11):
going to turn him into a player that has to
be perimeter oriented. In a lot of ways. His opportunities
around the basket are going to be a result of
ingenuity from the team. How do we get him down
there through action of some kind because he's just never
going to be able to physically bully players towards the basket.
(05:33):
And one thing I'll say about did you see the
quote from him after the game talking about Jalen Brunson,
he basically said he was like, yeah, like he had
control over the series the whole time, and there were
these elements of the series where I felt like I
was too passive and that I didn't have control. And
I think there's a combination with Wemby of supreme confidence
and belief in who he is, but also introspection and
(05:57):
self awareness that is Yeah, those tend to be conflicting
in a lot of players. I mean, look at Russell Westbrook,
it's the opposite. It's supreme confidence in the complete lack
of introspection and self awareness. And I think he's wired
in a way that's going to cause him to ultimately
solve this problem and become someone that no one could handle.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know. The I thought Jalen Brunson really taking a
series over in key spots in games three, four, and five,
it was symbolic of his career. He just wears, well
over time is that and not not everybody does, Like
there's a reason that you know, shock jocks don't last
or shock comics, and yet Chappelle and you know Seinfeld
(06:43):
and you know Ricky Gervais and in you know UK
and here is lat O. The last fifty years is
that Brunson's entire career. And this is fair. It's not
a shot on him. Nobody's picking on New York. He
doesn't pop, he's not he doesn't look physically like ant.
He's not a dynamic athlete. He is your classic. You've
(07:04):
had friends like this. I mean we always say there's
friends you invite to Vegas, and there's there's friends you
can vacation with, and then there's couples you can't vacation with.
But they're great for dinner. You know, you take him
to the cash only restaurant with great margarita. It's like
a great night. You're not spending six days at Lake
HASU with him as too much. Brunson is the classic.
He just wears well over time. A lot of it's intelligence,
(07:26):
a lot of it's is just you know, Dad's a coach.
But I thought that the finals were symbolic is that
everything's kind of hard. He's really good when you need him.
There's among the shots. You know, Stefan Castle creates inefficiency.
But you know, greatest Nick ever, he's the greatest nick
leader ever. You know, greatest Nick what does that mean?
(07:50):
But I looked at his series and I thought, you know,
it's it's I don't feel bad saying I think he's
a very good player. I said it all you. I
think he's a very very good all star level player.
I don't think he's Ant. But there are things that
Brunson has that Ant doesn't. You know, they're they're parts
to his game. And I just I think overall, every
(08:10):
team has a soul, and it's not always the best player.
And I just think he sort of embodies what's really
fun about the mix, what makes them a rare likable
New York team.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, I thought there's something so likable about this particular
Brunson run in the sense that it literally felt like
an underdog solving a problem, in the sense that he is,
to your point, like he doesn't have the physical gifts
that certainly not that Ant does. But I'd argue even
than Shay, like Shay, he's got a quicker first step
(08:40):
in a bigger frame, and he's got more like Earth. Yeah,
he's got like that kind of slender athleticism. But you know,
and what's funny is like you watch you watch how
Brunson's variety. We talked about this before this year. Is
the big difference between him and Shay is variety. It's
just he can do it in so many different ways.
There's a there's a creativity to Brunson on offense that
(09:03):
is missing from some of the other more repetitive stars
towards the top of the league. Yeah, Like what is
kind of funny is like with the Brunson piece, It
wasn't like he won this series hitting a bunch of
contested mid range jump shots, Like No, he won it
with threes and floaters and funky step through awkward shots.
And he was even able to kind of like find
(09:24):
little angles towards the rim that Shay was unable to find.
I thought that like ISO play that he had against
Wemby and crunch Time was like the perfect example of
this where he kind of hits like a series of
hesitation moves to get Wemby to lean too far to
his right. Then he kind of hits the gap next
to him, and then he slows down and bumps in
with his shoulder and then just barely finds a little
(09:45):
crease for him to get to a little right handed layup,
And you're like he has to quite literally squeeze every
drop out of the sponge of his athletic frame to
make this stuff work, and that the variety is almost
an absoluteness necessity with him because he doesn't have a
supremely gifted trade like Anthony Edwards can just go to
(10:06):
a step back dribble and get a jump shot off
against anybody because he's the best athlete at the guard
position in the league. There's even Shaye can just drive
at your chest, give you a little push off, get
to a little fifteen footer. Brunson, everything involves ingenuity and creativity,
and I think that actually served him really well in
the debt. Giveaway for this for me is if you
(10:26):
watch other guys like James Harden in his career, even
when he was at his best early in series, he'd
have success. But as series dragged on, guys would solve him.
The defenders would solve him. They'd figure out, I just
have to sit on that step back move. I have
to sit on that crossover. Brunson as the series went along,
(10:46):
got stronger. In his best two games were the last
two games of the series, so like he was able
to kind of craft and cater his game to fit
what this specific series needed, and it just showed like
it showed the opposite effect. Instead of a defender solving him,
he solved the defender. Even Steph Castle beats him for
that floater and crunch Time literally dusted him off the
(11:09):
dribble for an easy floater to help win the finals
against one of the best defenders in the league. And
you mentioned the leadership piece too, like just he every
all indications are that he's just the best locker room
dude in the world. How I love how you went
up to the desk after and he's like, do I
talk my shit or do I just be myself? And
he goes up there and he's just like, I'm gonna
(11:30):
be myself, And like, I just I think it's one
of the more like like I just I found myself
very happy for Jaylen Brunson last night.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, you know it's I said this about the United
States men's national team, and I said it about the Seahawks.
In my life. The constant theme with championship teams, not
all of them have a great coach, not all of them.
That your seven or eight best players have to be
in their prime or going into it. United States men's
(11:59):
national team Balligan, McKinney, polistic, Serginio desk. It's our guys
against Netherlands last World Cup. We're just too young. They
look like men playing their sons. It's like, okay, now
we're this is a team that can win group stage,
knockout stage games. We have guys in our prime and
they're good players overseas the Seahawks last year. You know,
(12:22):
Darnold's really one of the younger quarterbacks. You forget how
young he is. I mean they literally outside of like
a Leonard Williams, and he's still good. They don't have
a player they weren't that young. No old, because old
players in all sports get broken down more quickly. And
this is something I just I didn't think about because
I was so enamored with Wemby and the Western Conference.
(12:42):
And my take was, listen, the Spurs shot thirty three
percent in the fourth quarter of the series. The Aaron
Fox is out of his prime, which isn't good if
you're trying to trade him. Now. He's not miles out
of his prime. He's probably first year out of his prime.
The rest of the locker room is all pre prime,
and they you saw in the execution in the fourth quarter,
like they just and this this wasn't something that Jason
(13:05):
just happened. I mean, the Spurs were two and six
against the Knicks. This year, against the rest of the East,
they were twenty five and three. Like this wasn't like
it's like, folks, you know, you pay attention that that
Gold Cup game, you know, the NBA Cup excuse me,
earlier of the season that really did matter. That was
really you're getting great effort. Spurs were better now than then.
(13:26):
But I think I just yeah, and I just think
I look at it and I think I didn't listen
to myself. Is that when you watch these fourth quarters,
some of it was Knicks defense, some of it was
their kids. They you know, act like you've been here before. Yeah,
what if you haven't in your in your whole locker
room hasn't. So I mean, I think this is the
right team won, but also the right team lost. They're
(13:47):
just there there. There are men's national team. They needed
this run. Next year they'll be a different team. It
feels like to me.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, I actually took some time this morning to look
into the ages. I don't know why I didn't do
this before the series, Colin, But like every single core
Knicks rotations player was between twenty seven and thirty, like
all in the heart of their primes and been.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
An NBA weight rooms. I mean this is a big shoulder, basy,
I mean these are big men.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely like that. For the record, that's what
makes Steleen Harper such a unique guys. He's just like
fully grown for being a nineteen year old or twenty
year old. But so this is crazy. So the top
three scores for the Spurs in the series had a
combined age of sixty three. The top three scores for
the Knicks a combined age of eighty seven. It's a
(14:39):
gigantic difference between You're literally talking about grown mens versus
very very young And absolutely Dearren Fox was the veteran
on the team. Did you know that Fox would have
been the seventh oldest player in the Knicks playoff rotation.
Darren Fox would have been before this playoff run, Dearren
Fox had played in seven playoff games. Jalen Jalen Brunson
(15:03):
before this playoff run had played in sixty seven playoff games. Like,
it was such a gigantic difference, and like I really
thought it showed in those late game situations because we
talk about force is the oscillating thing that takes place
in a basketball series. Like obviously, early in the series
it's pretty even, but they tend to swing back and forth.
(15:24):
An urgency a team plays harder, more physical, But when
you get to the final five minutes of any big game,
that's a non factor. Everyone's playing urgent, everyone's playing as
hard as they've ever played in their entire life. Everyone's
being super physical, and it drags it into the mud.
And I thought the fundamental difference of the series was
at the end of these games, the Knicks knew exactly
(15:45):
what they wanted to do on offense, they knew exactly
who they were playing through, they knew exactly how to
score in those situations. I mean, the easiest way I
could put it is Jalen Brunson had more points in
clutch time, meaning within five point it's less than five minutes.
He had more points in clutch time than fox, Castle
and Harper combined. And I mean that's not counting Wenby,
(16:08):
who was four for twelve in clutch time. He wasn't
very good either, but like ultimately you saw that everyone
was calling for Harper, and I'm a big Harper believer.
I think he's the second best player on the team,
and I think he is like a star, like a
He's going to be one of the best six or
seven players in the NBA within within five years. He's
that good. Everyone's like play through Harper down the stretch.
He was bad down the stretch too, smoking free throws,
(16:28):
missing layups, driving into traffic and losing the ball.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Well, this goes this. I wrote this down, Jason. This
drove me crazy. Is that you know, listen, what's very
clear is that analytics are highly effective in the regular season.
The volume play conference finals in the finals is very situational.
I did think that when I watched the Spurs that
(16:55):
Castle and Harper too often they've got good three point looks.
It's like guys, they and they drive into a forest.
I mean, Og Robinson cats like guys. Just like when
Og got the tip. It's like, guys, these are big men.
It was maddening in the fourth quarter because the Knicks
(17:16):
had opportunity. The Knicks gave them opportunities, and it's just
like they just don't take these jumpers. I mean, Stefan
Castle is springy, but good God, he's going into the lane.
And how many times did the Spurs guards go into
the lane in the fourth quarter? Miss fall on the floor,
next are off and running after about a half dozen times,
I'm like, guys, shoot threes like the Spurs almost Wenby,
(17:40):
I'd like you a little closer. But the guard I
just feel like they're guards, besells. Obviously you can hit threes,
but I did feel like too often they're almost overly aggressive,
like trying to prove a point as guards. And some
of that's Mit, it's Mitch Johnson, the coach. I felt like, guys,
take the jumpers. Maybe, Oh, I think you're spot on
(18:02):
about this. I thought that that was the story of
crunch time last night. Everyone's like, stop playing through Fox.
Fox's foxes, you know, shitting the bed for lack of
a better term. Let's set Fox aside for a second.
Harper and Castle, all they would do in pick and
roll is just drive right into the teeth of the
defense every single time. And that was how the Knicks
regarding them, the Knicks regarding them in a way that
(18:23):
was like, let's force them to finish over multiple bodies
at the basket, and like, you're right, like I thought
one of the pivotal plays of the game was the
play We're Harper. They finally everyone's like, give the ball
to Dylan Harper, He's our best option. Drives into traffic,
misses a layup, falls into camera, Row knicks run out
the other way og and Andobi gets the dunk that
was goaltender, the one where the one where Devin Vessel
(18:43):
came up through the rim. That's a huge play in
the game.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
And like, for all the criticism of Fox, and by
the way, Fox was so bad, so so so bad
that like I all the criticism is fair. Fox will
take the jumper. Fox will if he goes into the
lane in the ball screen and you go under, if
you leave him in that gap in the midrange, he'll
rise up and take the jumper. And like that's why
everyone's like, oh, we gotta trade Fox, And I totally
(19:07):
get that. And there's a conversation about, like maybe they
should trade Fox sooner than later, simply because it'll just
get harder as he gets older. And like those sixty
seventy million, those super expensive years, I think it's like
fifty sixty million, those super expensive years, they're harder to
swallow when Fox is like thirty one and he's just
not very good anymore. But like the thing with Fox
(19:28):
that I'd be nervous about giving him up for is
how close are Castle and Harper really to being guys
who are comfortable taking those pull up jump shots off
the dribble. They could be years away. And like I
said this on my show last night for all to
talk about Fox, and it was bad that dude's gonna
be in some big games again next year. I mean, sorry,
the Spurs are gonna be in a big playoff series
(19:49):
again next year. I hate to break it to you, like,
Ye're not going anywhere, and unless you feel like Harper
and Castle are ready, you're gonna need you need him
to play better. So what you need Fox because he
is at a phase in his skill development where he's
got the give and the take, He's got the drive
and the jumper, and until one of those other guards,
(20:09):
whether it's Castle or Harper, figures that part of their
game out, they're just ultimately easy to guard in the postseason.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
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I mean it's listened. Dylan Harper average eighteen points, six
and a half, rebound, shot forty nine percent and played
thirty one minutes Like I think it was kind of
(22:22):
the elephant in the room, which everybody was like, can
we have him play more? You know, I thought there
was you know, I'm not I don't pick on coaches
a lot. In fact, I've said this about the media.
We're obsessed with coaching and you know, players. Generally, you're
as good as your players. A good coach can elevate
half a grade, and a bad coach hurts you. I
think there's the Harper Fox issue. I also think they
(22:45):
didn't get wenby rest at the right times during the series.
And I also think, you know, it's easy to blame
Mitch for the end of game frenetic, poor shot selection.
Some of that's players, some of it's intuitive. Basketball is
a very intuitive sport. You can't coach everything. This is
not college coach k is on the sideline. It's flow.
(23:06):
It's like we always talk about soccer. You can have
you can have set pieces and corner kicks. The great
teams have open play. It's fluidity. It's you're just beating
your guy down the field. And that's the same with basketball.
So you can't. You don't want to over coach, so I,
you know, I kind of look at you know, it's
it's really interesting. I thought during it, I thought they'll
(23:29):
get away with Fox's contract, which starts next year, and
it's pretty ugly because they have so many great young
players not making anything for a year, so they're they're fine,
and you get that occasionally where you know, you just
have a bad contract. Great gms make big mistakes. Jerry West,
the late Jerry West, would talk about the one or
two players. Right, It's like I just missed on it.
But I don't know. I I think what's fascinating about
(23:54):
the Knicks is we know the Spurs are returning. The
question is the Knicks. You know, what what do the
Knicks look like in a year? Because this will be
the eight this is the eighth champion in eight years.
They're not old, but they they have some expenses here.
What do the Knicks look like in a year? Who
isn't here?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I think I think that there's going to be some
interesting conversations surrounding Mitchell Robinson. The core guys are all
coming back right right. The thing with Mitchell Robinson and
I actually thought, you know, because they had various points
in the series, ended up going to Ariel hook Porty
because of foul trouble and and I think there's Mohamma
Dijuara is another guy that they got in the second
(24:34):
round last year. Is actually played pretty well that I
think could be a guy who can step in for
like some small ball looks for them. I think that's
the obvious like cost cutting piece, which is essentially, you know,
we let Mitch go, we think we can reasonably replace him.
The thing with Mitch is he's he plays a position
of value, Like look at what happened in this postseason run.
Look at how dominant Chet and Isaiah Hartenstein were before
(24:56):
they ran into Wemby. Look At how I thought Mitch
was great on Wenby throughout the series. I thought he
did a great job on him. Somebody out there is
gonna be like, we're gonna give Mitchell Robinson twenty five
million dollars for four years or maybe even more. And
if that happens, that I think is a pill that
would be hard to swallow for the Knicks. But beyond that,
(25:18):
this is where, like we talk about this with the
Lakers all the time, hitting on the margins, going to
get a guy like Landry Shamtt, and all of a
sudden he ends up being one of your most pivotal
playoff players in this entire run, Like you hit one
or two guys on the margins in a discounted role
like that, you're in great shape. And again all the
core guys are coming back. And this is like literally
(25:38):
one of the most underdiscussed pieces of this entire playoff run,
Jalen Brunson taking that discount, making it so that even
though he's clearly a player that like Jalen Brown, should
be making sixty million a year, is making forty. It
gives you the ability to field this type of talent
level into the future. I think he deserves so much
(26:00):
credit for Like, there is a good chance that Austin
Reeves makes more money in the next three seasons than
Jalen Brunson, and Jalen Brunson just won a finals MVP. Like,
I think he deserves so much credit for taking that
pay cut to facilitate the flexibility that they've had. And like, really,
it's like, yeah, it's Mitchell Robinson's the big swing piece
of the summer, But I think they're just running it
(26:21):
back with everybody.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah No, And I think again, I think it's such
a high intelligent team. Not only that it's a lot
of self aware. I mean, just think about this. I
was raiding this. One of the guys that I was
talking to on my staff was sending me you know
(26:46):
a little bit about this. Let me find this is
that if you really look at Brunson, it's that he
did things the right way, not worrying about brand, taking
less money multiple years in college, sort of the anti
AAU guy, and that kind of feels like the Nicks.
(27:08):
It just bridges and og and bruntson. And now kat
obviously was a number one pick and he but it's
a lot of these guys are like bruntson. They're gonna
wear well over time, you know what I mean. Like
Josh Hart's on Twitter like, hey, it's time to golf.
Anybody know what golf course I can play on? And
it's like, you know, these guys are not hiding from
(27:28):
the public, and I just think they are a championship teams.
I think O k C has some of this as well,
Like I don't think it's a ton of egos there.
You know, you always felt when the Warriors had Katie
Stefan Clay, You're like sometimes there'd be things set after
games and you're like that landed weird. Did Bob Meyer
say that at the victory parade? How will KD take it?
(27:49):
I think the Knicks will wear well. I think the
only thing I would worry about is age injuries. I
don't think it's lack of you knows, it's not lack
of guile or toughness or metal. They're just they have
an older team. It's a long regular season, and it
also there's gonna be a lot of celebrating, like the
(28:09):
off season may have a few more bud lights. I
mean it's gonna be that. It's good in I'm not
blaming them, like fifty three years a long street. New
York loves to take care of its own right Like, So,
I don't know. I think the Knicks will be very good.
I think the East will be better next year. I
think Tatum will be back.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Gianness might be a Celtic.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
I mean there's you know, they're not athletic enough. I mean,
what was really interesting I said this. I think it
was a couple of weeks with you as you were
watching the Knicks. You're like in the new CBA where
like you're paying seventy percent of your cap to Brown
and Tatum. I'm like Celtics aren't athletic enough, like they
have to take a swing, Like you say, what I mean?
That's it's so funny in this league now, Jason one year,
(28:52):
all of a sudden, you look at Holmgren, You're like, well,
it's not a bad contract, but he really shrinks against Wimby.
Do we have to like the new CBA. That's why
I say about Austin Reeves at forty three million, you
can't do that, Like that's you can't have a contract
like that. The Knicks don't have an ugly one. They
don't really have it. They don't if they let go
of Mitchell Robinson, why not come back? They don't have
(29:14):
a bad contract one that creates animosity in the room.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah. I think one of the underrated pieces of the
of the the way that their team is put together
is they're kind of less susceptible to the post championship
issues that other teams will have. Yeah, Like was it
pat Riley that used to talk about the disease of more?
I think it was Pat Yeah. Like like every first
of all, every single one of those guys other than
Kat is an overachiever, like Jalen og McHale and Josh
(29:42):
are all players who are dramatically overachieving compared to what
their pedigree was coming into the NBA. They've all received
massive paydays, so they've all been well taken care of financially,
and like who's the You can't even conceptualize a disease
of more guy, Like who's the guy? Like Jalen Bernson
just got finals MVP dropped forty five in game five.
(30:03):
I think he's doing just fine with his role on
the team. I don't think McHale or og have delusions
of being MVP level ball handlers. They're just guys that
are extremely high level role players. Josh Hart is literally
the heart and soul of the team, dirty work guy.
And Karl Anthony Towns, to his credit, Like Karl Anthony
Towns is the one guy out of that five that
was a blue chipper. Like I remember, if you go back,
(30:24):
you know, almost ten years ago now, when Kat was
first coming into the league, he was the guy that
everyone voted was like, this is the number one guy
you want to start your franchise with. Like when he
was first coming out of Kentucky, he was like legitimately
considered one of the best prospects in the league, and
he has basically evolved into a role player he has
evolved into. Like his usage went down in this playoff run,
(30:47):
his efficiency went up. He was way more devoted to
the defensive end of the floor. The simple way to
kind of refine all that is to say the Knicks
aren't going anywhere. Like let's say the Celtics do go
pull off a deal for Yiannis. Let's say the Heat
do pull off a deal for someone. Let's say the
Pistons do get Kyrie Irving. You're gonna have to go
through this NIXT team and they're gonna have continuity, and
(31:08):
they're gonna have Madison Square Garden, and they're gonna have
the best clutch player in the NBA like they and
they have no reason to break anything up. They all
love playing together. So like in a weird way, they're
gonna be They're gonna be kind of like Jimmy and
Bam were there for years. They're gonna be like the
you have to get through them to get out of
the Eastern Conference. I viewed them as very much as
(31:29):
staple a year to year competitor contender in that conference.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
For the record, you know, since you were initially and
remain the top Laker podcaster on the planet. Is it
is interesting with Austin reeves you got to make a
deal because you can't let him go. But and he's
gonna get over forty because I've said this, I think
he has a market. I think in Detroit is fascinating
where they really need another shot creator behind Kate. I
(31:58):
think in Chicago it works. Orlando, I mean I could,
I can bring down I can give you four or
five teams run like, Yeah, Austin works. I think he
works in LA I just think the issue is if
you want to bring Lebron back, then you've got you know,
forty nine here, forty three there. Lebron doesn't want to
take fifteen. Okay, I need two three and d's and
a rim protector. Guys, what are we doing here? Is
(32:21):
there a you know? I could I could see the
Lakers really doing this. I don't know if they have enough,
but I could see the Lakers just saying, listen, the
only thing that works and puts in a championship window
is Yannis. And we can't pay Austin. We have Luca
and Giannis, and we figure out a way to make
it work. When you look at the Lakers, how do
(32:42):
you make that jump? Okay where you can literally within
two years. You're like, all right, if they got home
court advantage, I mean you're not You're not going to
have you know, you're not going to have the talent,
the twitchiness of San Antonio. You don't have the GM
of Oklahoma City. But what do you surround what do
(33:03):
you do with Austin? Is there a perfect case scenario?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
You know, this is the thing that I keep coming
back to with Austin on the money side of it,
like guards in the NBA that our lead guards just
get paid forty forty five million dollars, they just do.
I mean, let me ask you this, just very simply, Colin,
who would you rather have for the next four years
on a deal like Austin averaging forty forty two million
(33:26):
a year or that deer in Fox contract.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I'd rather have, as Jesus, I'd rather have Austin wage.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yeah, I'd rather have a Bustin and like and you
start to look around the league and you look at
what the Jamal Murrays make, and you look at what
the Desmond Bines make, and you look at what all
these dudes make like Austin frankly deserves to make that
forty forty three million a year kind of deal. And
so from there, what I would actually, you know, Colin,
what happened with the Knicks actually made me think the
(33:52):
Lakers are closer in the sense that what was one
of the biggest storylines surrounding the NBA over the last
two three years or two years, can't win with Cat
and Brunson. They're both bad defenders. That that was the story.
And like, yeah, and Frankly, like, what happened was is
they surrounded them with good two way players and they
(34:13):
made it happen. Now, the important differentiated there is the
Jalen Brunson discount and that's that's the important context there.
And like, by the way, I do think if Austin
stays or the Lakers they do something slightly more team friendly,
I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a slight discount
to stay there. But still I think Luca and Austin
as complimentary ball handlers are enough. That's not the issue.
(34:37):
The issue is the surrounding talent. The issue is Rob
Polinka's ability to find starting caliber players to put around them.
It's the ability to find a player you can pay
twenty five to thirty million that is a like legit,
rock solid starting caliber guards the other team's best player
knocks down open catch and shoot threes. That type of dude.
Like to me, Like, I think the Knicks should be
(34:59):
the symbol for the rest of the NBA that you're
closer than you think. You need to have complimentary talent.
Everyone's got to fit really well. You gotta have strong culture.
You gotta have a guy who can carry you home
in the last five minutes, which that's Luca. Luca absolutely
can carry you home in the last five minutes. But
from there, it's like you gotta hit on the margins,
like the Knicks getting a Landri Shammitt at a discount
(35:21):
last summer, turning him into a big time rotation player,
them them putting together a legitimate starting lineup that can
cover for the defensive weaknesses of their two best players.
Like I think everyone should feel like they're closer than
you think.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, well, the other thing that we have to remember,
almost every one of these Nick moves got pushed back.
That that trade to get Og. If you remember, Ogi
had had a couple of injuries he'd been banged up
a little bit, and they and they gave up two
players that people liked that got pushback. Look at OG's
coming from Brunson.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
He makes a lot more than Brunson.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yep. I mean that that that was not one of
those great move. There was pushback on it. The Jalen Brunson.
I went and looked up. You can google Knicks make
move to secure Brunson. Look at the columns. There's a
lot of pushback. So what's interesting is, you know, this
wasn't ABC. They took swings. There was great not division,
(36:24):
but there was great pushback on the Brunson move. In
the Og move who ended up being their two most
reliable players there too. That's right. So I mean I
kind of look at it and I think there there's
no easy paths. There's too many good gms. A lot
of them are in the West, like you know, keep
(36:45):
your eye on Oklahoma City. People say they won't overreact,
but they've got some guys, rotational guys that eventually have
to get paid. Somebody's gonna pay some of those guys.
So you know, the Knicks are eight team in eight years. Imperfect,
but a lot of it was I'll go back to
James Dolan was kind of missing building the sphere for
(37:06):
a couple of years, and the front office guys made moves.
Dolan deserves a lot of credit for the Mike Brown
move because not everybody agreed with that, But this, you know,
it's it's there's you know, there are even people that
I really respect that already follow the Knicks and they're like,
I just I mean, in the regular season, I can
remember having a discussion with somebody and he's like, we've
(37:28):
just got a defensive hole we can't solve, you know,
and they did, So you know, there is something to
be said about like, look, Og didn't have didn't didn't
suffer any injuries in New York Cat. The tweak with Cat,
you know they let go of Heart and Steine, and
(37:48):
you know that that felt like troubling when they let
when he went, that was like, man, he is his energy,
his reback. That felt like a hole in the team
will end up not being a whole. So it's a
lot of things have to work. You know, Sam Darnold,
turnover guy, didn't have a single turnover in the playoff run.
Like there are there are things you can't predict right,
(38:11):
Like the one thing we said that held Seattle back.
He played perfect. Sometimes it's like things ship works like
it just it just it flows downhill, you get momentum.
For the record, I didn't think they matched up as
well against OKC because of playoff experience. The next trailed
in the fourth quarter was at all five games, like
(38:33):
some of this was. It was a really good matchup.
Their strength was the Spurs weakness. Was it not?
Speaker 2 (38:38):
No, it absolutely was. I mean, like I think I
think we can we can celebrate the Knicks today without
having revisionist history. Okay, Like like last year, they looked
terrible all year except for the Celtics series. All regular
season they couldn't beat a good team. They really struggled
with the Pistons. Then they caught lightning in a bottle
(39:02):
against the Celtics, like they did that Celtics series was
something special. But then they looked miserable against Indiana and
a loss, and it was like it was a bad season.
And then this year they won fifty three games that
they were better, Their metrics were better. This year, they
were better against good teams. This year they won the
in season tournament. So like there were definitely some some
better indicators, but they were absolutely a second tier contender.
(39:24):
I've always kind of groups contenders into two groups. Here.
Top tier contenders are like, these are the teams that
checked all the boxes. They're awesome on both ends. They
have one of the best four or five players in
the league. They always win, you know, somewhere between fifty
eight and sixty five games. They have incredible advanced metrics.
Like these are your stereotypical top tier contenders. This year
it was San Antonio and OKCE, Like they were very
(39:46):
clearly those types of teams. But then in that second
group there's always like these five or six teams where
it's like if if this goes right, and if that
goes right, and if that goes right and they catch right, yeah,
and it's like you you mentioned that the injury stuff,
like og did get hurt in previous playoff runts. He
had a hamstring tweak this year, but he was able
(40:06):
to recover, thankfully, in large part because they were able
to sweep series so that he could get extensive amounts
of rest. Like you look at Karl Anthony Towns is
the best defensive series of his defensive playoff front of
his entire career, Jalen Brunson is, you know, the most
clutch player in the NBA. A couple of bench guys,
like at one point Andrew Shamutt literally made twenty three
out of thirty three threes. Like it's like that's insane,
(40:27):
you know, And then all like pretty much since February,
I had been saying, what is the Knicks path when
we would do our monthly contender rankings, that'd be like, well,
if their path is, you know, they win the East
and they get San Antonio in the finals, if they
can get san Antonio in the finals, if they can
get san Antonio in the finals. They got san Antonio
in the finals, and they were able to close the deal.
And so like I think, like you know, of all
(40:48):
the teams that could potentially repeat, I think the Knicks
are not super likely to repeat next year, but like
they'll certainly once again be in that second tier of contenders,
and if things go right again and they kept some
favorable matchups, they absolutely could be back. And like, that's
to me, the fun of that's that's the fun of
the NBA in this era that we're in. It's like
every year there's legitimately like seven or eight teams that
(41:09):
could get it done.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
And I'll leave you with this, Shack and Wemby. Shack
and Wemby comparison year three in the league, first NBA Finals,
Wemby twenty six points, eleven rebounds, three points, six blocks
a game. Shack twenty eight points, twelve and a half rebounds,
two and a half blocks a game. Shack didn't make
it back to the finals until year eight, first ring
with the Lakers. It's it's you know, this is the league, man,
(41:37):
it's hard like. It's MJ. You know, Magic is lucky,
he inherits kareem like and the best GM in the
league get a great coach. So you kind of look
at this. And by the way, if you remember Shack
from Orland or to Los Angeles got bigger and stronger
and more powerful. So take a deep breath. Wemby will
(41:59):
be fine. The league is difficult, a lot of challenges,
but great stuff. We will talk. The draft is around
the corner. Jason, Jason timp hoops tonight. It's been really fun.
You've crushed it and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Thanks man, looking forward to seeing you next time.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
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friend within fourteen days. Terms apply. Well, there's so many
(01:12):
places to go now that the NBA season is over.
Jason timp hoops tonight is joining us and he's done
remarkable work. Are iron man our Jalen Brunson putting in
the minutes. I was talking to somebody in basketball this morning, Jason.
Then they said, you know, you can look at Wemby
and say he just couldn't you know, he got moved
(01:34):
off the block and he got pushed around, and this
person said, go to the Warriors. Championship over the Celtics
wasn't led by Biggs. Oklahoma City wasn't led by Biggs.
You can go back to final after final after final
after final. The Knicks, by the way, weren't led by Biggs.
(01:54):
Jalen Brunson, the only recent championship we have had were
a big. Everything funneled through him was Jokish, and Yokis
isn't even your classic big. He's an offensive hub and
a great perimeter shooter. And that Wemby discovered and the
Spurs will discover this is Dylan Harper has to shoot threes. Eventually,
(02:17):
they have to be better from the perimeter, because the
NBA allows you, especially in the finals, a physical level
of play that is not tolerated even in the conference finals,
and that by and large the NIXT for a prime
example Oklahoma City, you know the size of Minnesota. The
good teams have multiple bigs and then they have a
(02:38):
power forward a Julius Randall. Ish. Wenby discovered what everybody
does in the finals, even maybe early shocked before he
got bigger and stronger, which is the finals. It's a
it's rough living for bigs and Wemby's body type and
maybe I should have predicted this. I had the spurs
and six, I should have predicted this is it. Yes,
(03:01):
Wemby was going to get pushed around and that this
is the reality. It is a wing league largely. We've
been talking about this for years and Wemby is just
the latest big guy to realize the finals it's treacherous.
It's the deep and choppy waters.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, you know, I think even when you look at Jokic,
ever since that twenty twenty three run, he's kind of struggled.
Teams have been beating him up. I mean, like like
Rudy Gobert has done a number on him. In twenty
twenty four and twenty twenty six. Both Naseried and Julius
raynall have had moments against him. Even in that OKC
series last year, he was super inefficient outside of a
(03:44):
couple of games, and famously in Game seven, they were like, well,
what if we just don't let him catch the ball
by just swarming him in fronting him. And I think
there's as the league has shifted towards. I've talked about
this a lot on the show. Everyone talks about hand check, like, oh, well,
handchecking changed in two thousand and three, and it's like, well, actually,
if you look throughout NBA history, there's a constant back
(04:07):
and forth, like a pendulum that swings between more physical
Oh wait, it's too ugly, the scoring's too low, let's
loosen it up. Oh now it's too loose and everyone's
scoring too much. And we go back and forth, and
we're clearly heading into one of those more physical eras.
And what it's done is it's made it so that
the power players, they're the ones that deal with what
(04:28):
is allowed most physically, which is for you to beat
the heck out of these dudes. And what's interesting with
the guards you're allowed to beat them up off ball,
but as soon as they get the ball, you gotta
have your hands off. And so it turns into a
dynamic that's actually pretty advantageous to those guys. And I mean,
Jay Brunson gets fifteen free throw attempts last night, and
a lot of it is just whenever he goes anywhere
(04:50):
with force and he gets bumped, he just kind of
falls over and the next thing you know, they're blowing
the whistle and he's getting free throws. And I do
think that with Wemby, and I've said this on your
show before, I think there's this misinterpretation of his future
like that he's going to become some sort of post
up weapon, and I just don't see it that way.
I think he's got a high center of gravity that's
(05:11):
going to turn him into a player that has to
be perimeter oriented. In a lot of ways. His opportunities
around the basket are going to be a result of
ingenuity from the team. How do we get him down
there through action of some kind because he's just never
going to be able to physically bully players towards the basket.
(05:33):
And one thing I'll say about did you see the
quote from him after the game talking about Jalen Brunson,
he basically said he was like, yeah, like he had
control over the series the whole time, and there were
these elements of the series where I felt like I
was too passive and that I didn't have control. And
I think there's a combination with Wemby of supreme confidence
and belief in who he is, but also introspection and
(05:57):
self awareness that is Yeah, those tend to be conflicting
in a lot of players. I mean, look at Russell Westbrook,
it's the opposite. It's supreme confidence in the complete lack
of introspection and self awareness. And I think he's wired
in a way that's going to cause him to ultimately
solve this problem and become someone that no one could handle.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know. The I thought Jalen Brunson really taking a
series over in key spots in games three, four, and five,
it was symbolic of his career. He just wears, well
over time is that and not not everybody does, Like
there's a reason that you know, shock jocks don't last
or shock comics, and yet Chappelle and you know Seinfeld
(06:43):
and you know Ricky Gervais and in you know UK
and here is lat O. The last fifty years is
that Brunson's entire career. And this is fair. It's not
a shot on him. Nobody's picking on New York. He
doesn't pop, he's not he doesn't look physically like ant.
He's not a dynamic athlete. He is your classic. You've
(07:04):
had friends like this. I mean we always say there's
friends you invite to Vegas, and there's there's friends you
can vacation with, and then there's couples you can't vacation with.
But they're great for dinner. You know, you take him
to the cash only restaurant with great margarita. It's like
a great night. You're not spending six days at Lake
HASU with him as too much. Brunson is the classic.
He just wears well over time. A lot of it's intelligence,
(07:26):
a lot of it's is just you know, Dad's a coach.
But I thought that the finals were symbolic is that
everything's kind of hard. He's really good when you need him.
There's among the shots. You know, Stefan Castle creates inefficiency.
But you know, greatest Nick ever, he's the greatest nick
leader ever. You know, greatest Nick what does that mean?
(07:50):
But I looked at his series and I thought, you know,
it's it's I don't feel bad saying I think he's
a very good player. I said it all you. I
think he's a very very good all star level player.
I don't think he's Ant. But there are things that
Brunson has that Ant doesn't. You know, they're they're parts
to his game. And I just I think overall, every
(08:10):
team has a soul, and it's not always the best player.
And I just think he sort of embodies what's really
fun about the mix, what makes them a rare likable
New York team.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, I thought there's something so likable about this particular
Brunson run in the sense that it literally felt like
an underdog solving a problem, in the sense that he is,
to your point, like he doesn't have the physical gifts
that certainly not that Ant does. But I'd argue even
than Shay, like Shay, he's got a quicker first step
(08:40):
in a bigger frame, and he's got more like Earth. Yeah,
he's got like that kind of slender athleticism. But you know,
and what's funny is like you watch you watch how
Brunson's variety. We talked about this before this year. Is
the big difference between him and Shay is variety. It's
just he can do it in so many different ways.
There's a there's a creativity to Brunson on offense that
(09:03):
is missing from some of the other more repetitive stars
towards the top of the league. Yeah, Like what is
kind of funny is like with the Brunson piece, It
wasn't like he won this series hitting a bunch of
contested mid range jump shots, Like No, he won it
with threes and floaters and funky step through awkward shots.
And he was even able to kind of like find
(09:24):
little angles towards the rim that Shay was unable to find.
I thought that like ISO play that he had against
Wemby and crunch Time was like the perfect example of
this where he kind of hits like a series of
hesitation moves to get Wemby to lean too far to
his right. Then he kind of hits the gap next
to him, and then he slows down and bumps in
with his shoulder and then just barely finds a little
(09:45):
crease for him to get to a little right handed layup,
And you're like he has to quite literally squeeze every
drop out of the sponge of his athletic frame to
make this stuff work, and that the variety is almost
an absoluteness necessity with him because he doesn't have a
supremely gifted trade like Anthony Edwards can just go to
(10:06):
a step back dribble and get a jump shot off
against anybody because he's the best athlete at the guard
position in the league. There's even Shaye can just drive
at your chest, give you a little push off, get
to a little fifteen footer. Brunson, everything involves ingenuity and creativity,
and I think that actually served him really well in
the debt. Giveaway for this for me is if you
(10:26):
watch other guys like James Harden in his career, even
when he was at his best early in series, he'd
have success. But as series dragged on, guys would solve him.
The defenders would solve him. They'd figure out, I just
have to sit on that step back move. I have
to sit on that crossover. Brunson as the series went along,
(10:46):
got stronger. In his best two games were the last
two games of the series, so like he was able
to kind of craft and cater his game to fit
what this specific series needed, and it just showed like
it showed the opposite effect. Instead of a defender solving him,
he solved the defender. Even Steph Castle beats him for
that floater and crunch Time literally dusted him off the
(11:09):
dribble for an easy floater to help win the finals
against one of the best defenders in the league. And
you mentioned the leadership piece too, like just he every
all indications are that he's just the best locker room
dude in the world. How I love how you went
up to the desk after and he's like, do I
talk my shit or do I just be myself? And
he goes up there and he's just like, I'm gonna
(11:30):
be myself, And like, I just I think it's one
of the more like like I just I found myself
very happy for Jaylen Brunson last night.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, you know it's I said this about the United
States men's national team, and I said it about the Seahawks.
In my life. The constant theme with championship teams, not
all of them have a great coach, not all of them.
That your seven or eight best players have to be
in their prime or going into it. United States men's
(11:59):
national team Balligan, McKinney, polistic, Serginio desk. It's our guys
against Netherlands last World Cup. We're just too young. They
look like men playing their sons. It's like, okay, now
we're this is a team that can win group stage,
knockout stage games. We have guys in our prime and
they're good players overseas the Seahawks last year. You know,
(12:22):
Darnold's really one of the younger quarterbacks. You forget how
young he is. I mean they literally outside of like
a Leonard Williams, and he's still good. They don't have
a player they weren't that young. No old, because old
players in all sports get broken down more quickly. And
this is something I just I didn't think about because
I was so enamored with Wemby and the Western Conference.
(12:42):
And my take was, listen, the Spurs shot thirty three
percent in the fourth quarter of the series. The Aaron
Fox is out of his prime, which isn't good if
you're trying to trade him. Now. He's not miles out
of his prime. He's probably first year out of his prime.
The rest of the locker room is all pre prime,
and they you saw in the execution in the fourth quarter,
like they just and this this wasn't something that Jason
(13:05):
just happened. I mean, the Spurs were two and six
against the Knicks. This year, against the rest of the East,
they were twenty five and three. Like this wasn't like
it's like, folks, you know, you pay attention that that
Gold Cup game, you know, the NBA Cup excuse me,
earlier of the season that really did matter. That was
really you're getting great effort. Spurs were better now than then.
(13:26):
But I think I just yeah, and I just think
I look at it and I think I didn't listen
to myself. Is that when you watch these fourth quarters,
some of it was Knicks defense, some of it was
their kids. They you know, act like you've been here before. Yeah,
what if you haven't in your in your whole locker
room hasn't. So I mean, I think this is the
right team won, but also the right team lost. They're
(13:47):
just there there. There are men's national team. They needed
this run. Next year they'll be a different team. It
feels like to me.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, I actually took some time this morning to look
into the ages. I don't know why I didn't do
this before the series, Colin, But like every single core
Knicks rotations player was between twenty seven and thirty, like
all in the heart of their primes and been.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
An NBA weight rooms. I mean this is a big shoulder, basy,
I mean these are big men.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely like that. For the record, that's what
makes Steleen Harper such a unique guys. He's just like
fully grown for being a nineteen year old or twenty
year old. But so this is crazy. So the top
three scores for the Spurs in the series had a
combined age of sixty three. The top three scores for
the Knicks a combined age of eighty seven. It's a
(14:39):
gigantic difference between You're literally talking about grown mens versus
very very young And absolutely Dearren Fox was the veteran
on the team. Did you know that Fox would have
been the seventh oldest player in the Knicks playoff rotation.
Darren Fox would have been before this playoff run, Dearren
Fox had played in seven playoff games. Jalen Jalen Brunson
(15:03):
before this playoff run had played in sixty seven playoff games. Like,
it was such a gigantic difference, and like I really
thought it showed in those late game situations because we
talk about force is the oscillating thing that takes place
in a basketball series. Like obviously, early in the series
it's pretty even, but they tend to swing back and forth.
(15:24):
An urgency a team plays harder, more physical, But when
you get to the final five minutes of any big game,
that's a non factor. Everyone's playing urgent, everyone's playing as
hard as they've ever played in their entire life. Everyone's
being super physical, and it drags it into the mud.
And I thought the fundamental difference of the series was
at the end of these games, the Knicks knew exactly
(15:45):
what they wanted to do on offense, they knew exactly
who they were playing through, they knew exactly how to
score in those situations. I mean, the easiest way I
could put it is Jalen Brunson had more points in
clutch time, meaning within five point it's less than five minutes.
He had more points in clutch time than fox, Castle
and Harper combined. And I mean that's not counting Wenby,
(16:08):
who was four for twelve in clutch time. He wasn't
very good either, but like ultimately you saw that everyone
was calling for Harper, and I'm a big Harper believer.
I think he's the second best player on the team,
and I think he is like a star, like a
He's going to be one of the best six or
seven players in the NBA within within five years. He's
that good. Everyone's like play through Harper down the stretch.
He was bad down the stretch too, smoking free throws,
(16:28):
missing layups, driving into traffic and losing the ball.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Well, this goes this. I wrote this down, Jason. This
drove me crazy. Is that you know, listen, what's very
clear is that analytics are highly effective in the regular season.
The volume play conference finals in the finals is very situational.
I did think that when I watched the Spurs that
(16:55):
Castle and Harper too often they've got good three point looks.
It's like guys, they and they drive into a forest.
I mean, Og Robinson cats like guys. Just like when
Og got the tip. It's like, guys, these are big men.
It was maddening in the fourth quarter because the Knicks
(17:16):
had opportunity. The Knicks gave them opportunities, and it's just
like they just don't take these jumpers. I mean, Stefan
Castle is springy, but good God, he's going into the lane.
And how many times did the Spurs guards go into
the lane in the fourth quarter? Miss fall on the floor,
next are off and running after about a half dozen times,
I'm like, guys, shoot threes like the Spurs almost Wenby,
(17:40):
I'd like you a little closer. But the guard I
just feel like they're guards, besells. Obviously you can hit threes,
but I did feel like too often they're almost overly aggressive,
like trying to prove a point as guards. And some
of that's Mit, it's Mitch Johnson, the coach. I felt like, guys,
take the jumpers. Maybe, Oh, I think you're spot on
(18:02):
about this. I thought that that was the story of
crunch time last night. Everyone's like, stop playing through Fox.
Fox's foxes, you know, shitting the bed for lack of
a better term. Let's set Fox aside for a second.
Harper and Castle, all they would do in pick and
roll is just drive right into the teeth of the
defense every single time. And that was how the Knicks
regarding them, the Knicks regarding them in a way that
(18:23):
was like, let's force them to finish over multiple bodies
at the basket, and like, you're right, like I thought
one of the pivotal plays of the game was the
play We're Harper. They finally everyone's like, give the ball
to Dylan Harper, He's our best option. Drives into traffic,
misses a layup, falls into camera, Row knicks run out
the other way og and Andobi gets the dunk that
was goaltender, the one where the one where Devin Vessel
(18:43):
came up through the rim. That's a huge play in
the game.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
And like, for all the criticism of Fox, and by
the way, Fox was so bad, so so so bad
that like I all the criticism is fair. Fox will
take the jumper. Fox will if he goes into the
lane in the ball screen and you go under, if
you leave him in that gap in the midrange, he'll
rise up and take the jumper. And like that's why
everyone's like, oh, we gotta trade Fox, And I totally
(19:07):
get that. And there's a conversation about, like maybe they
should trade Fox sooner than later, simply because it'll just
get harder as he gets older. And like those sixty
seventy million, those super expensive years, I think it's like
fifty sixty million, those super expensive years, they're harder to
swallow when Fox is like thirty one and he's just
not very good anymore. But like the thing with Fox
(19:28):
that I'd be nervous about giving him up for is
how close are Castle and Harper really to being guys
who are comfortable taking those pull up jump shots off
the dribble. They could be years away. And like I
said this on my show last night for all to
talk about Fox, and it was bad that dude's gonna
be in some big games again next year. I mean, sorry,
the Spurs are gonna be in a big playoff series
(19:49):
again next year. I hate to break it to you, like,
Ye're not going anywhere, and unless you feel like Harper
and Castle are ready, you're gonna need you need him
to play better. So what you need Fox because he
is at a phase in his skill development where he's
got the give and the take, He's got the drive
and the jumper, and until one of those other guards,
(20:09):
whether it's Castle or Harper, figures that part of their
game out, they're just ultimately easy to guard in the postseason.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
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I mean it's listened. Dylan Harper average eighteen points, six
and a half, rebound, shot forty nine percent and played
thirty one minutes Like I think it was kind of
(22:22):
the elephant in the room, which everybody was like, can
we have him play more? You know, I thought there
was you know, I'm not I don't pick on coaches
a lot. In fact, I've said this about the media.
We're obsessed with coaching and you know, players. Generally, you're
as good as your players. A good coach can elevate
half a grade, and a bad coach hurts you. I
think there's the Harper Fox issue. I also think they
(22:45):
didn't get wenby rest at the right times during the series.
And I also think, you know, it's easy to blame
Mitch for the end of game frenetic, poor shot selection.
Some of that's players, some of it's intuitive. Basketball is
a very intuitive sport. You can't coach everything. This is
not college coach k is on the sideline. It's flow.
(23:06):
It's like we always talk about soccer. You can have
you can have set pieces and corner kicks. The great
teams have open play. It's fluidity. It's you're just beating
your guy down the field. And that's the same with basketball.
So you can't. You don't want to over coach, so I,
you know, I kind of look at you know, it's
it's really interesting. I thought during it, I thought they'll
(23:29):
get away with Fox's contract, which starts next year, and
it's pretty ugly because they have so many great young
players not making anything for a year, so they're they're fine,
and you get that occasionally where you know, you just
have a bad contract. Great gms make big mistakes. Jerry West,
the late Jerry West, would talk about the one or
two players. Right, It's like I just missed on it.
But I don't know. I I think what's fascinating about
(23:54):
the Knicks is we know the Spurs are returning. The
question is the Knicks. You know, what what do the
Knicks look like in a year? Because this will be
the eight this is the eighth champion in eight years.
They're not old, but they they have some expenses here.
What do the Knicks look like in a year? Who
isn't here?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I think I think that there's going to be some
interesting conversations surrounding Mitchell Robinson. The core guys are all
coming back right right. The thing with Mitchell Robinson and
I actually thought, you know, because they had various points
in the series, ended up going to Ariel hook Porty
because of foul trouble and and I think there's Mohamma
Dijuara is another guy that they got in the second
(24:34):
round last year. Is actually played pretty well that I
think could be a guy who can step in for
like some small ball looks for them. I think that's
the obvious like cost cutting piece, which is essentially, you know,
we let Mitch go, we think we can reasonably replace him.
The thing with Mitch is he's he plays a position
of value, Like look at what happened in this postseason run.
Look at how dominant Chet and Isaiah Hartenstein were before
(24:56):
they ran into Wemby. Look At how I thought Mitch
was great on Wenby throughout the series. I thought he
did a great job on him. Somebody out there is
gonna be like, we're gonna give Mitchell Robinson twenty five
million dollars for four years or maybe even more. And
if that happens, that I think is a pill that
would be hard to swallow for the Knicks. But beyond that,
(25:18):
this is where, like we talk about this with the
Lakers all the time, hitting on the margins, going to
get a guy like Landry Shamtt, and all of a
sudden he ends up being one of your most pivotal
playoff players in this entire run, Like you hit one
or two guys on the margins in a discounted role
like that, you're in great shape. And again all the
core guys are coming back. And this is like literally
(25:38):
one of the most underdiscussed pieces of this entire playoff run,
Jalen Brunson taking that discount, making it so that even
though he's clearly a player that like Jalen Brown, should
be making sixty million a year, is making forty. It
gives you the ability to field this type of talent
level into the future. I think he deserves so much
(26:00):
credit for Like, there is a good chance that Austin
Reeves makes more money in the next three seasons than
Jalen Brunson, and Jalen Brunson just won a finals MVP. Like,
I think he deserves so much credit for taking that
pay cut to facilitate the flexibility that they've had. And like, really,
it's like, yeah, it's Mitchell Robinson's the big swing piece
of the summer, But I think they're just running it
(26:21):
back with everybody.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah No, And I think again, I think it's such
a high intelligent team. Not only that it's a lot
of self aware. I mean, just think about this. I
was raiding this. One of the guys that I was
talking to on my staff was sending me you know
(26:46):
a little bit about this. Let me find this is
that if you really look at Brunson, it's that he
did things the right way, not worrying about brand, taking
less money multiple years in college, sort of the anti
AAU guy, and that kind of feels like the Nicks.
(27:08):
It just bridges and og and bruntson. And now kat
obviously was a number one pick and he but it's
a lot of these guys are like bruntson. They're gonna
wear well over time, you know what I mean. Like
Josh Hart's on Twitter like, hey, it's time to golf.
Anybody know what golf course I can play on? And
it's like, you know, these guys are not hiding from
(27:28):
the public, and I just think they are a championship teams.
I think O k C has some of this as well,
Like I don't think it's a ton of egos there.
You know, you always felt when the Warriors had Katie
Stefan Clay, You're like sometimes there'd be things set after
games and you're like that landed weird. Did Bob Meyer
say that at the victory parade? How will KD take it?
(27:49):
I think the Knicks will wear well. I think the
only thing I would worry about is age injuries. I
don't think it's lack of you knows, it's not lack
of guile or toughness or metal. They're just they have
an older team. It's a long regular season, and it
also there's gonna be a lot of celebrating, like the
(28:09):
off season may have a few more bud lights. I
mean it's gonna be that. It's good in I'm not
blaming them, like fifty three years a long street. New
York loves to take care of its own right Like, So,
I don't know. I think the Knicks will be very good.
I think the East will be better next year. I
think Tatum will be back.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Gianness might be a Celtic.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
I mean there's you know, they're not athletic enough. I mean,
what was really interesting I said this. I think it
was a couple of weeks with you as you were
watching the Knicks. You're like in the new CBA where
like you're paying seventy percent of your cap to Brown
and Tatum. I'm like Celtics aren't athletic enough, like they
have to take a swing, Like you say, what I mean?
That's it's so funny in this league now, Jason one year,
(28:52):
all of a sudden, you look at Holmgren, You're like, well,
it's not a bad contract, but he really shrinks against Wimby.
Do we have to like the new CBA. That's why
I say about Austin Reeves at forty three million, you
can't do that, Like that's you can't have a contract
like that. The Knicks don't have an ugly one. They
don't really have it. They don't if they let go
of Mitchell Robinson, why not come back? They don't have
(29:14):
a bad contract one that creates animosity in the room.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah. I think one of the underrated pieces of the
of the the way that their team is put together
is they're kind of less susceptible to the post championship
issues that other teams will have. Yeah, Like was it
pat Riley that used to talk about the disease of more?
I think it was Pat Yeah. Like like every first
of all, every single one of those guys other than
Kat is an overachiever, like Jalen og McHale and Josh
(29:42):
are all players who are dramatically overachieving compared to what
their pedigree was coming into the NBA. They've all received
massive paydays, so they've all been well taken care of financially,
and like who's the You can't even conceptualize a disease
of more guy, Like who's the guy? Like Jalen Bernson
just got finals MVP dropped forty five in game five.
(30:03):
I think he's doing just fine with his role on
the team. I don't think McHale or og have delusions
of being MVP level ball handlers. They're just guys that
are extremely high level role players. Josh Hart is literally
the heart and soul of the team, dirty work guy.
And Karl Anthony Towns, to his credit, Like Karl Anthony
Towns is the one guy out of that five that
was a blue chipper. Like I remember, if you go back,
(30:24):
you know, almost ten years ago now, when Kat was
first coming into the league, he was the guy that
everyone voted was like, this is the number one guy
you want to start your franchise with. Like when he
was first coming out of Kentucky, he was like legitimately
considered one of the best prospects in the league, and
he has basically evolved into a role player he has
evolved into. Like his usage went down in this playoff run,
(30:47):
his efficiency went up. He was way more devoted to
the defensive end of the floor. The simple way to
kind of refine all that is to say the Knicks
aren't going anywhere. Like let's say the Celtics do go
pull off a deal for Yiannis. Let's say the Heat
do pull off a deal for someone. Let's say the
Pistons do get Kyrie Irving. You're gonna have to go
through this NIXT team and they're gonna have continuity, and
(31:08):
they're gonna have Madison Square Garden, and they're gonna have
the best clutch player in the NBA like they and
they have no reason to break anything up. They all
love playing together. So like in a weird way, they're
gonna be They're gonna be kind of like Jimmy and
Bam were there for years. They're gonna be like the
you have to get through them to get out of
the Eastern Conference. I viewed them as very much as
(31:29):
staple a year to year competitor contender in that conference.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
For the record, you know, since you were initially and
remain the top Laker podcaster on the planet. Is it
is interesting with Austin reeves you got to make a
deal because you can't let him go. But and he's
gonna get over forty because I've said this, I think
he has a market. I think in Detroit is fascinating
where they really need another shot creator behind Kate. I
(31:58):
think in Chicago it works. Orlando, I mean I could,
I can bring down I can give you four or
five teams run like, Yeah, Austin works. I think he
works in LA I just think the issue is if
you want to bring Lebron back, then you've got you know,
forty nine here, forty three there. Lebron doesn't want to
take fifteen. Okay, I need two three and d's and
a rim protector. Guys, what are we doing here? Is
(32:21):
there a you know? I could I could see the
Lakers really doing this. I don't know if they have enough,
but I could see the Lakers just saying, listen, the
only thing that works and puts in a championship window
is Yannis. And we can't pay Austin. We have Luca
and Giannis, and we figure out a way to make
it work. When you look at the Lakers, how do
(32:42):
you make that jump? Okay where you can literally within
two years. You're like, all right, if they got home
court advantage, I mean you're not You're not going to
have you know, you're not going to have the talent,
the twitchiness of San Antonio. You don't have the GM
of Oklahoma City. But what do you surround what do
(33:03):
you do with Austin? Is there a perfect case scenario?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
You know, this is the thing that I keep coming
back to with Austin on the money side of it,
like guards in the NBA that our lead guards just
get paid forty forty five million dollars, they just do.
I mean, let me ask you this, just very simply, Colin,
who would you rather have for the next four years
on a deal like Austin averaging forty forty two million
(33:26):
a year or that deer in Fox contract.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I'd rather have, as Jesus, I'd rather have Austin wage.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yeah, I'd rather have a Bustin and like and you
start to look around the league and you look at
what the Jamal Murrays make, and you look at what
the Desmond Bines make, and you look at what all
these dudes make like Austin frankly deserves to make that
forty forty three million a year kind of deal. And
so from there, what I would actually, you know, Colin,
what happened with the Knicks actually made me think the
(33:52):
Lakers are closer in the sense that what was one
of the biggest storylines surrounding the NBA over the last
two three years or two years, can't win with Cat
and Brunson. They're both bad defenders. That that was the story.
And like, yeah, and Frankly, like, what happened was is
they surrounded them with good two way players and they
(34:13):
made it happen. Now, the important differentiated there is the
Jalen Brunson discount and that's that's the important context there.
And like, by the way, I do think if Austin
stays or the Lakers they do something slightly more team friendly,
I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a slight discount
to stay there. But still I think Luca and Austin
as complimentary ball handlers are enough. That's not the issue.
(34:37):
The issue is the surrounding talent. The issue is Rob
Polinka's ability to find starting caliber players to put around them.
It's the ability to find a player you can pay
twenty five to thirty million that is a like legit,
rock solid starting caliber guards the other team's best player
knocks down open catch and shoot threes. That type of dude.
Like to me, Like, I think the Knicks should be
(34:59):
the symbol for the rest of the NBA that you're
closer than you think. You need to have complimentary talent.
Everyone's got to fit really well. You gotta have strong culture.
You gotta have a guy who can carry you home
in the last five minutes, which that's Luca. Luca absolutely
can carry you home in the last five minutes. But
from there, it's like you gotta hit on the margins,
like the Knicks getting a Landri Shammitt at a discount
(35:21):
last summer, turning him into a big time rotation player,
them them putting together a legitimate starting lineup that can
cover for the defensive weaknesses of their two best players.
Like I think everyone should feel like they're closer than
you think.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, well, the other thing that we have to remember,
almost every one of these Nick moves got pushed back.
That that trade to get Og. If you remember, Ogi
had had a couple of injuries he'd been banged up
a little bit, and they and they gave up two
players that people liked that got pushback. Look at OG's
coming from Brunson.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
He makes a lot more than Brunson.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yep. I mean that that that was not one of
those great move. There was pushback on it. The Jalen Brunson.
I went and looked up. You can google Knicks make
move to secure Brunson. Look at the columns. There's a
lot of pushback. So what's interesting is, you know, this
wasn't ABC. They took swings. There was great not division,
(36:24):
but there was great pushback on the Brunson move. In
the Og move who ended up being their two most
reliable players there too. That's right. So I mean I
kind of look at it and I think there there's
no easy paths. There's too many good gms. A lot
of them are in the West, like you know, keep
(36:45):
your eye on Oklahoma City. People say they won't overreact,
but they've got some guys, rotational guys that eventually have
to get paid. Somebody's gonna pay some of those guys.
So you know, the Knicks are eight team in eight years. Imperfect,
but a lot of it was I'll go back to
James Dolan was kind of missing building the sphere for
(37:06):
a couple of years, and the front office guys made moves.
Dolan deserves a lot of credit for the Mike Brown
move because not everybody agreed with that, But this, you know,
it's it's there's you know, there are even people that
I really respect that already follow the Knicks and they're like,
I just I mean, in the regular season, I can
remember having a discussion with somebody and he's like, we've
(37:28):
just got a defensive hole we can't solve, you know,
and they did, So you know, there is something to
be said about like, look, Og didn't have didn't didn't
suffer any injuries in New York Cat. The tweak with Cat,
you know they let go of Heart and Steine, and
(37:48):
you know that that felt like troubling when they let
when he went, that was like, man, he is his energy,
his reback. That felt like a hole in the team
will end up not being a whole. So it's a
lot of things have to work. You know, Sam Darnold,
turnover guy, didn't have a single turnover in the playoff run.
Like there are there are things you can't predict right,
(38:11):
Like the one thing we said that held Seattle back.
He played perfect. Sometimes it's like things ship works like
it just it just it flows downhill, you get momentum.
For the record, I didn't think they matched up as
well against OKC because of playoff experience. The next trailed
in the fourth quarter was at all five games, like
(38:33):
some of this was. It was a really good matchup.
Their strength was the Spurs weakness. Was it not?
Speaker 2 (38:38):
No, it absolutely was. I mean, like I think I
think we can we can celebrate the Knicks today without
having revisionist history. Okay, Like like last year, they looked
terrible all year except for the Celtics series. All regular
season they couldn't beat a good team. They really struggled
with the Pistons. Then they caught lightning in a bottle
(39:02):
against the Celtics, like they did that Celtics series was
something special. But then they looked miserable against Indiana and
a loss, and it was like it was a bad season.
And then this year they won fifty three games that
they were better, Their metrics were better. This year, they
were better against good teams. This year they won the
in season tournament. So like there were definitely some some
better indicators, but they were absolutely a second tier contender.
(39:24):
I've always kind of groups contenders into two groups. Here.
Top tier contenders are like, these are the teams that
checked all the boxes. They're awesome on both ends. They
have one of the best four or five players in
the league. They always win, you know, somewhere between fifty
eight and sixty five games. They have incredible advanced metrics.
Like these are your stereotypical top tier contenders. This year
it was San Antonio and OKCE, Like they were very
(39:46):
clearly those types of teams. But then in that second
group there's always like these five or six teams where
it's like if if this goes right, and if that
goes right, and if that goes right and they catch right, yeah,
and it's like you you mentioned that the injury stuff,
like og did get hurt in previous playoff runts. He
had a hamstring tweak this year, but he was able
(40:06):
to recover, thankfully, in large part because they were able
to sweep series so that he could get extensive amounts
of rest. Like you look at Karl Anthony Towns is
the best defensive series of his defensive playoff front of
his entire career, Jalen Brunson is, you know, the most
clutch player in the NBA. A couple of bench guys,
like at one point Andrew Shamutt literally made twenty three
out of thirty three threes. Like it's like that's insane,
(40:27):
you know, And then all like pretty much since February,
I had been saying, what is the Knicks path when
we would do our monthly contender rankings, that'd be like, well,
if their path is, you know, they win the East
and they get San Antonio in the finals, if they
can get san Antonio in the finals, if they can
get san Antonio in the finals. They got san Antonio
in the finals, and they were able to close the deal.
And so like I think, like you know, of all
(40:48):
the teams that could potentially repeat, I think the Knicks
are not super likely to repeat next year, but like
they'll certainly once again be in that second tier of contenders,
and if things go right again and they kept some
favorable matchups, they absolutely could be back. And like, that's
to me, the fun of that's that's the fun of
the NBA in this era that we're in. It's like
every year there's legitimately like seven or eight teams that
(41:09):
could get it done.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
And I'll leave you with this, Shack and Wemby. Shack
and Wemby comparison year three in the league, first NBA Finals,
Wemby twenty six points, eleven rebounds, three points, six blocks
a game. Shack twenty eight points, twelve and a half rebounds,
two and a half blocks a game. Shack didn't make
it back to the finals until year eight, first ring
with the Lakers. It's it's you know, this is the league, man,
(41:37):
it's hard like. It's MJ. You know, Magic is lucky,
he inherits kareem like and the best GM in the
league get a great coach. So you kind of look
at this. And by the way, if you remember Shack
from Orland or to Los Angeles got bigger and stronger
and more powerful. So take a deep breath. Wemby will
(41:59):
be fine. The league is difficult, a lot of challenges,
but great stuff. We will talk. The draft is around
the corner. Jason, Jason timp hoops tonight. It's been really fun.
You've crushed it and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Thanks man, looking forward to seeing you next time.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
The volume
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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