Colin’s top takes of the week.
First, Colin is joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight” to break down the NBA playoffs.
They begin with Colin explaining why he became a “fan” during Game 7 and why he was pulling for the Spurs dynasty to begin, and Jason highlights some of the adjustments the Spurs made to beat the defending champs (3:00). Colin marvels at the poise and composure an incredibly young Spurs team showed in a high pressure game 7 on the road, and they make the case for Wemby being the best player in the world (8:45).
Colin argues that Thunder GM Sam Presti may have to look into trading for Giannis in order to compete with the Spurs going forward, but Jason argues that Presti should look to target someone in the draft (14:15).
Then, Colin is joined by legendary sportswriter Ian O’Connor to talk about all things Knicks.
They start with Colin’s theory that the Knicks began their resurgence after owner James Dolan stepped away to build the Sphere and became more distracted and hands-off from running the team and letting GM Leon Rose build the roster (24:30). They discuss the reasons behind Mike Brown’s success as head coach and why he’s been able to succeed when past coaches have failed, and the change he made to the role of Karl-Anthony Towns (29:45).
They examine the Knicks supporting case and why their high effort, tough nosed style of basketball feels a bit like Villanova…but yet, it works (34:15 ). Finally, they discuss Jalen Brunson’s incredibly rare team friendly contract with the Knicks, and why he knew that ending the Knicks title drought would be worth far more than a few million dollars on his contract (38:30).
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Episode Transcript
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hymns dot com slash cow hurt All right, Jason timp
hoops Tonight, I'm off ak Little Spain, Little watch Hill,
Rhode Island. I think watching last night. You know, when
I do this for a living, I always had sort
of a I'd rather be like the judge. You know.
(01:50):
The fans can be the jury, the prosecuting attorney, the DA.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I'm just gonna be the judge.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Call it as I see it. Try not to play favorites,
but everybody knows, you know. I'm from the Northwest. I
like to see to do well. My sister loves the
Seahawks USC football, but I don't root very often, very rarely.
In fact, I don't remember the last time I watched
the game, and it was nervous and to me that's
a fan.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
You gotta lead.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
You're getting nervous. I don't remember the last time I
felt that way. And then it hit me Saturday night
that I found myself the Spurs were the better team.
Webby against the Knicks is a better final. Let's just
get to the dynasty. I've been there, done that with
Sga and Okase. Totally respect him, but the most interesting
part of the teams the GM, Like, I can't respect you,
(02:35):
but think you're boring. Nick Saban was great. I thought
Bama's dynasty was boring. I was sitting there last night
in the second half and I was like, oh, I'm
a fan. I want san Antonio. I want I want
the dynasty to start. I don't care if the Knicks
beat them, but I want them. They're gonna get to
the finals. Here a lot, and so let me start
with that. Do you ever feel that way, because I
(02:58):
with Wemby, I'm like waiting for let's just get to
the dynasty, sort of like Lebron, you know, after about
year three year, like, could you draft another good player
for the guy? Could we could we get him to
the finals? I found myself being a fan for the
last hour of that game last night.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, I have found one of the most interesting things
about Shakos Alexander in his rise over the last couple
of years is he is considerably less popular around the
kind of casual NBA fan base that spans the globe.
He's considerably less popular than anybody who's ever been as
accomplished as he is. Like we were talking about back
to back MVP, a finals MVP, A guy who leads
(03:37):
a league in scoring. This is this is a player
that everything on paper screams. He should be immensely popular.
And I think there are underrated part of his games,
parts of his game that are very entertaining for people
who really love the game of basketball. Like he is
an incredibly gifted shot maker. That first half last night,
when he's just hitting crazy contested shot after crazy contested shot, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I was getting open looks. Those were tough makes.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I thought that was really in a lot of ways
kind of that. Even though it was his best game
of the series, I thought in many ways it was
the most damning game of the series in terms of
how he stacks up against the other best players in
the league. Because even though he was knocking down incredibly
tough shots, there was no stretch in that game where
I felt like he was consistently generating quality looks for
(04:25):
his team. This is the stat of the series. Colin.
In the first few games, Mitch Johnson's double teaming shay
a lot and like far from the basket, like twenty
five thirty feet from the basket. So in the first
three games, the Thunder average twenty five unguarded catch and
shoot threes per game. After Game three, he makes an
(04:45):
adjustment and he goes, We're not going to double team
you were just gonna play kind of a straight up,
load up defense. We're going to funnel you towards the
sideline and we're gonna kind of send extra defenders over
and let's see how many tough shots you can make.
They went from twenty five unguarded catch and shoot three
is a game to eleven over the last four games,
a huge drop off in his ability to generate quality looks.
(05:06):
Once they just said let's see how many of these
tough shots you can make. They completely shut the rim
off from him. In the regular season, seven point two
makes per game in the paint on sixty three percent.
In this series, three point four, less than half on
just forty four percent. So they took away the rim.
They were able to funnel him towards the sideline and
(05:27):
force him into tough shots. And even though he had
a great statistical game yesterday, the Thunder could not generate
good looks. And really, that was the story of the
series for me was Shay was really unable to solve
the Wemby problem. And that's like the one thing as
a guy who we revere as one of the best
offensive players in the league, that's the problem he has
to solve.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, And I think that speaks to Wemby's greatness. I
don't think you could ever solve Jordan or Shack in
his prime. They tried Hack a Shack. It wasn't that successful, right.
You couldn't solve Bird or Magic. And that's the difference.
There are ways to solve or mitigate some of SGA's effectiveness.
There really isn't with Wemby, and I think that's what
(06:09):
that's the difference. I mean, I mean, Steph Curry'll have
bad games, but I mean you just there's no he
just if he's hot, it's over. It doesn't really matter
who you put on him. And I felt the same
way as there are there are ways and that I
don't think. We never thought SJ was Jordan or Bird
or magic you're Duncan, but we thought he was a
really great player. But I do think Wemby's in that class.
(06:30):
I mean, I another big takeaway I had in this
game the poise of san Antonio. I mean, yes, Daron
Fox has been around the block, and yes he I
thought he had his best game of the series. Every
time as Darren Fox hit a shot, it felt huge,
like it was fifteen points. I felt like I felt
all of them. I've told you this before. I've covered
(06:52):
guys in the NBA, Like I would go to an
Andrew Wiggins game when he was at T Wolve and
he would score twenty eight and I didn't remember two
baskets like he just points Like Darren Fox, every basket
felt huge, a cornet's block play of the series. Like
there are guys, so they've got some they've got some
guys who have been around, but to be that poised
(07:13):
Game seven on the road, forty three percent from three
every time tip ins Dylan Harper Champenny, I mean, if
I remember correctly, basically san Antonio picked him up. Was
he released or something. Saint John's kid Brooklyn let him go.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Didn't they.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, it was Philly that let him go. Another another
Darren Morriy. Another Darren Morriy catastrophe on Totnate. No, yeah,
it was huge. He's got a brother who's really good
too that plays in Washington, and I'm ready to see
if somebody snatches him up too. But he's just he's big,
he's scrappy, he can really shoot the ball. He shot
the ball really well against the Knicks. This sear he'll
be an interesting kind of character in that series. But
I totally agree with to call him because like all
(07:55):
the things that I said involving Shay, I think are true.
Like even had Okay se won this series, I kind
of was looking at Shay a little differently than I
did than I did before the series, because just frankly,
we're at three postseasons now where there's like a giant
cratering and his effectiveness relative to the regular season to
the postseason. But I just didn't think that the Spurs
would be poisoned enough to go on the road and
(08:17):
winside fit game. And it's like Keldon Johnson two massive
threes in the fourth quarter, like enormous threes in the
fourth quarter, right, and then you have Dylan Harper hits
that crazy step back three over Sga has that big
offensive rebound put back, Cornette has the block at the rim.
You have Champagni got red hot in the second half,
and I thought, honestly, one of the big stories of
(08:37):
the game, Like Wemby didn't have the most impressive box
score game. I think he had twenty two and seven
or something like that, But the story of the second
half was they got into their pick and roll game,
and every time Wemby rolls, the entire Thunder team just
coalesces around him. And that's how Champagni got hot. That's
how Keldon Johnson got going. Those dudes are all wide
open on the week side because of the way that
(08:59):
Wenby drags everybody towards the rim. And this really is
kind of the fundamental difference between the The big picture
impact of a player offensively on a team is it's
less about what you can do on the box score.
Can you generate lots of good shots for your team?
And Wemby right now, the reason he's the best player
in the world is, yes, he can do all these
(09:21):
little things. Like Game one, you guard him with wings,
he turns into Shaquille O'Neal, goes for forty to twenty
right Like Game four, the guards have it going, so
he turns into Anthony Davis and he's just dunking everything
on rolls and he's dunking everything in transition. Then you
go to game six and seven, he becomes like a
point guard. He's like attacking Isaiah Hartenstein from the floor
and takes like thirteen jump shots in that game. It
(09:42):
hits a bunch of them, and he can kind of
shape shift into all these different roles. But fundamentally, the
reason why his offensive floor is so much higher than
it appears in the box score as you just run
a ball screen with him and he rolls hard, and
you're just getting a guard who can throw a skip
pass and you're gonna get open looks, and that is
that is fundamentally what makes them so hard to guard
(10:02):
is you just have these three headed Do you have
this three headed attack at the guard spot who runs
these pick and rolls. Wenby rolls hard, and Champagne can
hit the threes on the skip, Devin Vessel can hit
the threes off the skip. They just play really well
off of the advantage that Wenby creates rolling towards the rim.
I was super impressed with those young guys they colin.
They dominated that game, even the common times, even a
(10:23):
couple of times that okay see took a lead day
immediately like they had took a little point ly late
in the second seven ozer run to end the half.
They took a little lead in the early third quarter
immediately blew the game open from there, like they they
rolled up in there and played like a team that
thought they were better and controlled it from start to finish.
I just it's causing me to reevaluate my kind of
opinion as it pertains to young basketball players succeeding in
(10:45):
the playoffs. It's just so amazing.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Like two months ago, Rachel Nichols and I went through
the playoffs. It was like six weeks ago, I picked
san Antonio at Boston. But what was funny is I
felt way better about Boston than San Antonio was, Like
Boston is almost the garant san Antonio. I'm waving. I
don't know if they can win a game seven in
Oklahoma City, but I mean so, I think it was
(11:09):
a couple of weeks ago, Ryan Risillo and I started
talking about this, and it was after game one and
I said, in the second half San Antonio One, I said, Okay,
as I'm watching and I'm losing my mind, I'm like,
Sam Presty has got to be thinking, Okay, Holmgren is ineffective.
Hartenstein I'm losing. Although Hartenstein is is just you know,
(11:32):
I mean, the Knicks. We're devastated when he left. He'll
probably leave, okase that floater is weird and it works,
and I think he's one of those guys that players
know how good he is. Fans may not pay attention,
but if you ask players no the league about Hartenstein,
they're like, yeah, guys that that's a baller. But I
suggested this to Ryan. I said, I'd give up Homegren.
(11:55):
I mean, you can watch them play against Wemby. It's
just not going to work. And Wemby he's got I mean,
home Groun's closer to his ceiling than Wemby is. I'm like,
it's a mismatch.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Shouldn't be it is?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I said, okay, I'll move that piece. Jay Dubb I've
never been a big fan. I like him, I don't
love him injuries, and again, I just think the ceiling's lower.
I don't know, it just my personal taste. And I
said Aj Mitchell four draft picks, and we all laughed.
He goes, Dude, it's one game, subtle down. But you
watch that series and you watch SGA's you know there's
(12:32):
some ceiling here. You watch Wemby, you know Sam Presty's
watching this go twenty years old, twenty one years old,
twenty two years old. He's watching Holmegrun's limitations, he's losing Hartenstein.
It is not crazy to me that Sam Presty. I
don't think it's reactionary, Jason. I think sometimes you just
go we can do a rinse and repeat. Yannis may
(12:54):
be the league's answer for three years. I mean, I
don't think it's crazy, even though the series went seven.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Man.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
This is super fascinating Colin, because there's there's so many
different angles to this offseason for OKC that are worth
considering in the sense that I think, on the one hand,
it's important to admit and every GM should be self aware.
I think it's important to admit that Shae JDub Chet
(13:23):
is not going to be as good over the coming
years as Webbin, Yama, Harper Castle. I think it may
not be close, and it may not be close because
Wenby's already better than Shane. He's going to continue to
get better. I like JDub, but I think both Castle
and Harper have the ability to surpass him one day.
And Sheet I think is there are some real limitations
that came out of that series. But it gets convoluted
(13:47):
when you start to look at the way that the
salaries work, because Shay's deal has one more year that's
in the mid forties, but then his it's low forties. Actually,
the following year, his salary skyrockets into the sixties and
he starts making a ton of money. Starting next year,
both JDub and Chett will make eighty million between the
two of them, So they're in the phase now where
(14:09):
all these dudes are getting paid. So it's a little
bit more complicated, and just simply Yannis's salary makes it
pretty difficult to actually imagine the machinations of them ducking
underneath the second apron and then putting the salaries together
to go after Giannis. I also frankly think that I
don't understand why Giannis would want to do that. Why
(14:30):
would he want to go to OKC to be in
a situation where he's not going to get a ton
of credit if they win, Like everyone remembers Kevin Durant
signing with the Warriors, and it wasn't necessarily a thing
that benefited Steph or KD. Like Steph was underrated after that,
and remember Dame was talking trash about him in the
regular season, like guys were like, oh, Steph doesn't have
help now, and that he had to win that twenty
(14:51):
twenty two title for everyone to finally acknowledge how good
he was as a player. And KD still to this day,
no one gives him credit for those two titles he
won in Golden State. I don't think Giannis wants that.
I also just think it's it's really difficult financially to
pull off what I think makes the most sense for
Sam Presty in this draft. I think he's got to
target somebody in the draft. And the main reason why
(15:13):
is those dudes make all that money. You need discount talent.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Now.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
You need players that are really good that don't make
a lot of money. And yes, Chet has a Wemby problem,
but he's really good against the other twenty eight teams
in the league.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
He really is, because it is so is this a
Nandi Mara? You take your two draft picks, you move
up to nine or eight, and you get the seven
to three Spaniard center. Who's ash? I mean to me
that that's a cheap and that guy can just I mean,
let's face it, most college kids one year out aren't
gonna get the rotation for the Spurs. R okay, see,
(15:47):
I mean that that level of basketball last night, Jason
was insane. It was in It was it was Celtics Lakers.
It was like one am I watching there's like eight
potential Hall of Fame level guy guys well who could
come in from college and help you seven to three
rim protector? I'm much better, I mean, like Zach Edie
(16:08):
with better feet, better passer. Like to me, that makes
I mean, is that the direction you're going in?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I think whether it's Mara or it's Jaxe Landenborg, or
if I was Sam, I'd be calling up on Cam
Boozer and I'd be like, hey, do you want three
or four firsts for us to jump up and take
Cam and you can have our draft pick down at
eleven or twelve or whatever it is. You can still
have a lottery player in this draft and fill your
(16:35):
draft trove. Let us hop up and grab a guy
like Cam. I think the reason why I would not
necessarily go for Mara is I really think Hartenstein causes
some problems for Wemby. He's a very unique matchup in
that he's very physically strong and laterally quick enough to
kind of beat Wenby to spots. One of the biggest
stories of this series is that Hartenstein was one of
(16:55):
Okayse's most valuable players and just how physically he could
match up. So I think it's more likely that they
re up would like get Hartenstein to opt out and
extend him at a team friendly number somewhere around like
a Tea twenty million. I don't think they're The thing
with Chet is like again, he's so good against everyone else,
Like they said this after the game last night, and
(17:16):
and it's the truth. They're like we we we've been
the number one seed in the West ever since Chet
was on our team. And that's a fact because he's
so good at protecting the rim. He's such a ceiling
razor on both ends of the floor and like a
foundational piece for them against everyone else. And here's the thing.
Chet's got to figure out a way to be better
against the Spurs. He I thought he got punked both
mentally and physically in this series. I thought he got
(17:37):
exposed for being too slow. He was frank, like, his
three point shots too slow, his decision making off the
catches too slow. Like, He's got to revamp his game
to be able to play in this matchup. And that
is a fact. But I think any trade off letting
go of Chet would cause a dramatic drop in a
lot of their foundational qualities throughout the rest of the
regular season and for other matchups.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
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All right, we got thirty minutes. I wanted to bring
on Ian O'Connor, a friend and whenever there's New York stuff,
he's so well connected, and I was thinking driving home
(19:54):
today knowing you were going to be on. So I
always had this theory with the Knicks that they were
all just there was just a bad smell around the
organization for years. James Dolan fighting the press. You know,
the Charles Oakley stuff is kind of the tip of
the iceberg. There's just been a lot of uncomfortable relationships
(20:18):
and the media. I mean I would read New York
media and think this is this is toxic. And then
my theory was James Dolan, who has great musical connections,
went on about a four year journey to Vegas and
the Sphere and he could return to New York, but
(20:39):
he was at least physically at times and emotionally a
bit disconnected from the organization. His emotion was really into
the Sphere, which has been an incredible hit, the greatest
music venue in the world, and he deserves credit. And
it was it was it was about Leon Rose gets
hired and his first big hire as Tibbs. And you know, Dolan,
(21:00):
I'm sure had an impact on this, but it does
feel like and Dolan, now this Sphere has gone, it's successful,
it's done and completed. But it does feel like there
was a bit of a pivot or a tipping point
where Dolan was a bit removed worldwide West. Leon Rose
(21:20):
come in and kind of have a lot of leverage
and a lot of say is that me sort of
creating a story that doesn't exist, because it feels like
the timelines do kind of connect the Sphere and the
building of Tibbs and Brunson was the first. I think
Brunson was twenty twenty two. Does this connect or is
(21:42):
it just am I hype farming on this and hoping
it's true?
Speaker 4 (21:47):
No, No, I think it connects. Colin and great to
see you listen. I remember having a conversation with James Dolan.
It was at least a two hour interview, and I
was at ESPN dot com at the time, and the
Sphere it was in its infancy, and he kept wanting
to talk about it, and I wanted to talk about
(22:08):
the Nicks, and I gave his time, and some of the.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Sphere of stuff was in the piece.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
In retrospect, I'm thinking I underplayed it, because you're right.
It's everybody I know who has been to that venue
has loved it, and it's a great thing. I do
think his time away, he's certainly back now and more
engaged was back then. The Sphere was a very big
part of his life in every way. People who know
him well said what you just said now. George Steinberner
(22:38):
was suspended in the early nineties, and while he was away,
Geen Michael, the executive and Buck Showalter the manager rebuilt
the Yankees, and they were a mess at the point
that Steinberner was suspended. By the time George got back,
things have been cleaned up to a George Steinberner had
(22:58):
a very positive impact on the Yankee dynasty of the nineties.
Is willingness to suspend the urgency he creates every day
did have some positives attached to it, without questioning, Derek
Jeter would be the first person to tell you that.
So I think Dolan was away, and I also think
he looked at Bob Myers and Golden State former agent.
(23:20):
He looked at Rob Polinka with the Lakers former agent,
and he said, let me do something different. He tried
Phil Jackson as the savior of the franchise right now.
Larry Brown failed with Isaiah Thomas, Mike D'Antoni. There have
been all kinds of coaching front office saviors brought in
under Dolan who all failed. And he tried something different
with an agent in Leon Rose.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And by the way, Leon Rose did not.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
He had his misses early on Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier,
Kim Rehpp and Guy Yeah. Tims didn't want Tims didn't
want those players, and so he got better. Leon Rose
got better and better and better, just like his team,
just like his players.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Every year.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
You have to give Dolan credit for taking the gamble
to hire Rose. My suspicion, actually it's more than a suspicion,
is that Dolan didn't really want to hire TIBs. I
think Dolan wanted to hire Jason Kidd. James Dolan wan
it comes to coaches, when it comes to executives, He's
a star chaser at times, and Tibbs is a very
(24:20):
good coach, but not a charismatic figure, not a big personality.
Maybe not a star in the traditional concept of it.
But anyway, he listened to Leon Rose, who used to
represent Tibbs. It was a great hire. Tibbs did exactly
for the Knicks what Bugs Show Walter did for the Yankees,
cleaning up the mess, restoring competence, professionalism, accountability. But then
(24:41):
when it came time to get over the hump, Steinberger
decided to go in a different direction with his fourth
choice really for the job, in Joe Tory, a mister
nice guy had been fired a bunch of times, age
fifty five. Mike Brown, mister nice guy, age fifty five,
fired like Joe Tory by three different organizations.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
It really is striking the similarities. And we'll see.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
If Mike Brown can have a little bit of that
Joe Tory's success coming up here in the coming days,
and then maybe beyond.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Well Tory it had some failures and success. Same with
Mike Brown. So they come in known as guys, you know,
the Don Zimmer Joe Tory bench. I mean, Tory was
known as a guy that people liked. I always said
Joe Tory was like that really formidable step dad that
you never wanted to disappoint. And he was your little
(25:31):
league coach. And he may not have been your biological dad,
but he was just as good as your biological dad,
and he had there was a certain masculinity to Tory
that you just never wanted to disappoint Joe, And I
do think I think Mike.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Brown, by the way, Colin Tino Martinez said those exact
words you just said. I never wanted to disappoint him
because it was like playing for my father. That's crazy, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Mike and Mike Brown, who's worked with Up, who's worked
with kerr Rick Carlisle, is very much seen as a listener,
a collaborator, can enforce rules. I mean he'll go up
to Cat and say, you know, or somebody and say, hey,
your hat's on backwards, come on, let's get it together.
But by and large, somebody that players really respect and
(26:19):
like when they were struggling against Atlanta. Let's just go
back a couple sits. I remember watching that thinking CJ.
McCollum is going to knock the Knicks out of the playoffs?
What the hell am I watching? They were a bad
team in March. Who got in Brown's ear on the
Carl Anthony Towns tweak.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
I think Towns made the suggestion initially, but and I
don't take anything away from Brown's decision if it wasn't
his original idea, because that's why they hired him, and
that's why. Now, Tom Thibodeau did a very good job,
and he didn't deserve to be fired. He took the
next to the conference finals last year for the first
time in a quarter century. You don't get fired off
(26:57):
of I beat the Celtics, and you look at the
way they knocked out the Celtics. That route that Game
six was was unbelievable. He didn't deserve to be fired.
But Mike Brown was a great hire for the reasons
that Dolan and Leon Rose stated. So both things can
be true at the same time. TIB's got an unfair deal,
but Mike Brown actually was better for this team. Now,
(27:19):
if you're a TIBs supporter. You might say, well, if
he had Atlanta, Philly and Cleveland, he would have gone
to the finals too, right, So anyway, I'm sure he's
sitting at home and it hurts right to see the
team you built and put together now being led by
somebody else, probably maybe to a championship. But so let's
Kat makes the initial suggestion, but Mike Brown acts on it.
(27:41):
And here's where you got to give Brown a lot
of credit. He knows he's been around the league's been
fired four times by three different franchises. If this goes sideways,
I take one of my two franchise cornerstones with brunts
and Kat being the other, and I turn him into
a point guard at seven feet tall.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And if this doesn't work, I'm done.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
I mean he is one and done and getting fired
and that is it. And they're blowing up that roster.
If they lose to Atlanta, they're down two to one.
It looked like Quinn Snyder was out coaching him, and
I gave him all the credit in the world for
not fearing the consequences of a potential disaster. They're losing
that first round series to Atlanta and deciding, you know what,
Cat right, this would be better for this team right now,
(28:22):
and lo and behold. Ever since then, basically the Knicks
have not lost. And it unlocked everything about the offense
that you hadn't seen before, and Jalen brunts and getting
him off the ball a little bit. Man, the Knicks
have been an entirely different team ever since Brown made
that move.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
There, I was talking one time. I said something about
Villanova guys on the air, and Jay Wright reached out
to me and texted me and he said, you know,
he goes You've always been so respectful of Villanova, And
I said, you know, I covered Jay when he was
at un l V under Rollie Masamino, the late Rolli Masamino.
And I remember meeting Jay. I was a sportscaster in Vegas,
and you knew immediately he was going to be a star.
I mean, he was like twenty six. He looked like
(29:00):
George Clooney. I'm like, oh, this guy can recruit. So
he ends up at Villanova. And I always felt that
of all the basketball programs in the country, Villanova's was
sort of the anti Calipari. It's like, we're gonna go
get We're gonna recruit from the DMV. We're gonna get
cops kids. We're gonna get tough kids that play defense,
more three star offen than four or five. But they're
gonna stay here, They're gonna go to class, they're gonna
(29:22):
be leaders. And it may sound cliche, but I don't
think it is. Josh Hart, Bridges, Bruntson, We're all sensational
in Game one in their own way, right, the rebounding
with heart, Bridges who finally missed a free throw, which
almost never happens, Brunson's closing despite an off shooting eye.
He was great in the fourth. There is something. I
(29:44):
believe this to be true because the Knicks camaraderie is
almost collegiate. I mean, remember, the Spurs are drafted and
develop and they're mostly the same age. The Knicks are.
Trade for this guy, trade for that guy, acquire that guy,
free age that guy. It could very easily be a
disjointed locker room. Yet it's not that yet. They're I
(30:08):
mean they seem to. I mean, there are big personalities
and big stars in New York, elevated by the media,
and it does feel like the villanova thing isn't just
a term or you know, a cliche. The Knicks feels
strangely close for a professional team that came from different organizations, franchises, coasts, backgrounds.
(30:35):
That's what it feels like to me.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Yeah, And that's what it feels like to wal Frasier,
who I talked to last night and I've talked with
him about this in the past. Dave de Busher's family
I talked to, and they're all saying the same thing.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
This reminds us of the the the sort of there.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Was a camelot in New York in the early seventies
with the Red Holtzman Nicks. The way they shared the ball,
people of backgrounds and races coming together and really a
love affair between the city and that team, that one
in seventy and seventy three at the expense of Will
Chamberlain and the Lakers.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And those are the only two championships the Knicks have
ever won, to believe it or not.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
And so the way they share the ball on Mike
Brown's team, the way they play defense, and they clearly
play with a joy, They play for one another, and Colin,
I think this is not rare in New York. But
what I really like about covering this team as a
columnist is they are likable human beings. Mike Brown likable,
Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns and the rest of them,
(31:29):
the Villanova guys. You know, that's a program. Jay Wright
wanted the best to ever do it. They don't just
have a team, they have a program. They build people,
and they build players. There really complete people and players.
And having the three of them together. I understand it
was five first round picks for McHale Bridges, but I
was all for getting Bridges and I actually had tweet
they traded him. But I listen, if you told me
(31:51):
five first round picks, I'd be like, maybe I'm not
so all for them anymore.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I would have maybe said three or four.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
But it's worked out and Leon Rose has done a
great job of putting character high character people in that
locker room. Carl Anthony Town's a very quick story. He
has a relationship with a woman whose son was killed
in Afghanistan at US Marine. Yes, typically because the son
went to Katz High School Saint Jose Mtouchein.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
He never met the soldier.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
He was a different age, ten years younger, and he
did a very simple gesture in a basketball game. He
scored twenty five points and stopped at twenty five to
honor the soldier who was twenty five when he was killed.
And he's still friends with that woman today, had her
at a recent game, and it just common decency. I
see that in these Knicks. They are very genuine people.
Makes them easy to root for. And maybe you wouldn't
(32:44):
have said that ordinarily about a James Dolan team, but
this is a very very likable, embraceable group and that's
part of the reason why the entire region has really
rallied behind this team. Unlike I've covered what five Yankee
these championship teams, I've covered two Giants championship teams and
some other really good teams with the Knicks in the nineties.
(33:06):
But this team is as well liked, I think by
the city as any I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, it's And for the record, let me defend the
Knicks on the five draft picks. That was pre nil,
when the drafts were increasingly sporadic and awful. Now this
year's draft is a bona fide nil draft where many
players stayed in longer so giving up. You know, Rudy
Gobert got nine picks Rudy Gobert today would get three,
(33:33):
Michale would get two. But at that time, I mean
it was a one and done. I mean were you
were drafting kids who weren't ready to play. So there
were some bad drafts for about a ten year stretch.
So it sounds outrageous to say five picks that's what
you give up now for maybe a Yannis. But at
that time, you know, Rudy Gobert a couple of years
ago got nine. He got played off the floor by Wemby.
(33:55):
So I'll defend I will defend the Knicks. Brunson's fascinating
because if I said to you name two stars in
the NBA that took team friendly deals, you'd say Brunson,
and you couldn't name another. It's really you hear about
it in football for quarterbacks, and you do not hear it.
That's right, you do not hear it in the NBA.
(34:17):
Let's go back to that signing, because I think that
is so rare in pro basketball. Let's go back to
that deal when it was signed. I remember reading about it,
you were living it. How is it perceived by teammates
and people in the organization that an NBA player emerging
as a star. Hey, I'm going to take much less
(34:38):
than I could.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
Well, I think he'll make that up down down the road,
and oh he will. That's part of it. But I
also think it showed he got it. Like, Hey, if
I'm the guy who ends a fifty three year or
whatever would have been fifty four to fifty five year.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Drought in New York City, a great basketball.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
Town that's been asleep for a long time, If I'm
the one who does that, that is worth so much
more than another five, ten, fifteen, twenty million dollars. And
he got it then, you know, partly because maybe he
came out of a program that taught those values at Villanova.
That and when you make a certain amount of money,
how much do you need for one? And that's priceless
(35:19):
and you ask will Well, you know, unfortunately Willis is
no longer with us, But so I used to talk
to him about it, and I talked to well Fraser
about it last night, and actually Walt said that Brunson
is a combination of the two of them. He has
the tenacity of Willis reed and he's as cool as
I am basically as well. That's a pretty good combination.
(35:40):
To have and I used to have a lot of
conversations with Willis Reid and we were all I was
eight years old when they won their last title in
nineteen seventy three. I do remember that team, and we've
all been waiting for a team to be like that.
In the nineties, Knicks were really good. They weren't good
enough to beat Jordan or Elijah on but they were
really good, rugged, physical, Big ten football teams.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
This team is different.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
This team is like the seventies Knicks, and Brunson is
the biggest reason why. He leads with the generosity of spirit,
brings people in and just talked earlier today. I asked
him a question about the fan support on the road,
which has been just off the charts for the Knicks.
He said, his wife and Jalen and family, they never
(36:25):
take that for granted. They've been feeling the love ever
since he arrived in New York and that was it. Listen,
It's one of the greatest signings in the history of
New York sports when you consider he was so undervalued
and Mavericks could have paid to keep them right, it
would have been a bargain and a half if they
(36:46):
kept him and I will say this, if the Knicks
win it all, there should be a statue at some
point outside the Garden of Brunson, and also a second
statue of whoever the official was in the organization who
authorized the tampering that was necessary to get Jalen Brunton
to sign. And because you know the Knicks lost, they
what a twenty twenty five second round pick for tampering.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
That is the greatest case of all time.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
Right, you said, all right, you gotta sort of I
don't want to say cheap, but Ben the rules, maybe
break them a little, get Jalen Brunton, but we're gonna
take a second round pick from you in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I think you would make that deal.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
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hymns dot com slash cow hurt All right, Jason timp
hoops Tonight, I'm off ak Little Spain, Little watch Hill,
Rhode Island. I think watching last night. You know, when
I do this for a living, I always had sort
of a I'd rather be like the judge. You know.
(01:50):
The fans can be the jury, the prosecuting attorney, the DA.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I'm just gonna be the judge.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Call it as I see it. Try not to play favorites,
but everybody knows, you know. I'm from the Northwest. I
like to see to do well. My sister loves the
Seahawks USC football, but I don't root very often, very rarely.
In fact, I don't remember the last time I watched
the game, and it was nervous and to me that's
a fan.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
You gotta lead.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
You're getting nervous. I don't remember the last time I
felt that way. And then it hit me Saturday night
that I found myself the Spurs were the better team.
Webby against the Knicks is a better final. Let's just
get to the dynasty. I've been there, done that with
Sga and Okase. Totally respect him, but the most interesting
part of the teams the GM, Like, I can't respect you,
(02:35):
but think you're boring. Nick Saban was great. I thought
Bama's dynasty was boring. I was sitting there last night
in the second half and I was like, oh, I'm
a fan. I want san Antonio. I want I want
the dynasty to start. I don't care if the Knicks
beat them, but I want them. They're gonna get to
the finals. Here a lot, and so let me start
with that. Do you ever feel that way, because I
(02:58):
with Wemby, I'm like waiting for let's just get to
the dynasty, sort of like Lebron, you know, after about
year three year, like, could you draft another good player
for the guy? Could we could we get him to
the finals? I found myself being a fan for the
last hour of that game last night.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, I have found one of the most interesting things
about Shakos Alexander in his rise over the last couple
of years is he is considerably less popular around the
kind of casual NBA fan base that spans the globe.
He's considerably less popular than anybody who's ever been as
accomplished as he is. Like we were talking about back
to back MVP, a finals MVP, A guy who leads
(03:37):
a league in scoring. This is this is a player
that everything on paper screams. He should be immensely popular.
And I think there are underrated part of his games,
parts of his game that are very entertaining for people
who really love the game of basketball. Like he is
an incredibly gifted shot maker. That first half last night,
when he's just hitting crazy contested shot after crazy contested shot, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I was getting open looks. Those were tough makes.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I thought that was really in a lot of ways
kind of that. Even though it was his best game
of the series, I thought in many ways it was
the most damning game of the series in terms of
how he stacks up against the other best players in
the league. Because even though he was knocking down incredibly
tough shots, there was no stretch in that game where
I felt like he was consistently generating quality looks for
(04:25):
his team. This is the stat of the series. Colin.
In the first few games, Mitch Johnson's double teaming shay
a lot and like far from the basket, like twenty
five thirty feet from the basket. So in the first
three games, the Thunder average twenty five unguarded catch and
shoot threes per game. After Game three, he makes an
(04:45):
adjustment and he goes, We're not going to double team
you were just gonna play kind of a straight up,
load up defense. We're going to funnel you towards the
sideline and we're gonna kind of send extra defenders over
and let's see how many tough shots you can make.
They went from twenty five unguarded catch and shoot three
is a game to eleven over the last four games,
a huge drop off in his ability to generate quality looks.
(05:06):
Once they just said let's see how many of these
tough shots you can make. They completely shut the rim
off from him. In the regular season, seven point two
makes per game in the paint on sixty three percent.
In this series, three point four, less than half on
just forty four percent. So they took away the rim.
They were able to funnel him towards the sideline and
(05:27):
force him into tough shots. And even though he had
a great statistical game yesterday, the Thunder could not generate
good looks. And really, that was the story of the
series for me was Shay was really unable to solve
the Wemby problem. And that's like the one thing as
a guy who we revere as one of the best
offensive players in the league, that's the problem he has
to solve.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, And I think that speaks to Wemby's greatness. I
don't think you could ever solve Jordan or Shack in
his prime. They tried Hack a Shack. It wasn't that successful, right.
You couldn't solve Bird or Magic. And that's the difference.
There are ways to solve or mitigate some of SGA's effectiveness.
There really isn't with Wemby, and I think that's what
(06:09):
that's the difference. I mean, I mean, Steph Curry'll have
bad games, but I mean you just there's no he
just if he's hot, it's over. It doesn't really matter
who you put on him. And I felt the same
way as there are there are ways and that I
don't think. We never thought SJ was Jordan or Bird
or magic you're Duncan, but we thought he was a
really great player. But I do think Wemby's in that class.
(06:30):
I mean, I another big takeaway I had in this
game the poise of san Antonio. I mean, yes, Daron
Fox has been around the block, and yes he I
thought he had his best game of the series. Every
time as Darren Fox hit a shot, it felt huge,
like it was fifteen points. I felt like I felt
all of them. I've told you this before. I've covered
(06:52):
guys in the NBA, Like I would go to an
Andrew Wiggins game when he was at T Wolve and
he would score twenty eight and I didn't remember two
baskets like he just points Like Darren Fox, every basket
felt huge, a cornet's block play of the series. Like
there are guys, so they've got some they've got some
guys who have been around, but to be that poised
(07:13):
Game seven on the road, forty three percent from three
every time tip ins Dylan Harper Champenny, I mean, if
I remember correctly, basically san Antonio picked him up. Was
he released or something. Saint John's kid Brooklyn let him go.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Didn't they.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, it was Philly that let him go. Another another
Darren Morriy. Another Darren Morriy catastrophe on Totnate. No, yeah,
it was huge. He's got a brother who's really good
too that plays in Washington, and I'm ready to see
if somebody snatches him up too. But he's just he's big,
he's scrappy, he can really shoot the ball. He shot
the ball really well against the Knicks. This sear he'll
be an interesting kind of character in that series. But
I totally agree with to call him because like all
(07:55):
the things that I said involving Shay, I think are true.
Like even had Okay se won this series, I kind
of was looking at Shay a little differently than I
did than I did before the series, because just frankly,
we're at three postseasons now where there's like a giant
cratering and his effectiveness relative to the regular season to
the postseason. But I just didn't think that the Spurs
would be poisoned enough to go on the road and
(08:17):
winside fit game. And it's like Keldon Johnson two massive
threes in the fourth quarter, like enormous threes in the
fourth quarter, right, and then you have Dylan Harper hits
that crazy step back three over Sga has that big
offensive rebound put back, Cornette has the block at the rim.
You have Champagni got red hot in the second half,
and I thought, honestly, one of the big stories of
(08:37):
the game, Like Wemby didn't have the most impressive box
score game. I think he had twenty two and seven
or something like that, But the story of the second
half was they got into their pick and roll game,
and every time Wemby rolls, the entire Thunder team just
coalesces around him. And that's how Champagni got hot. That's
how Keldon Johnson got going. Those dudes are all wide
open on the week side because of the way that
(08:59):
Wenby drags everybody towards the rim. And this really is
kind of the fundamental difference between the The big picture
impact of a player offensively on a team is it's
less about what you can do on the box score.
Can you generate lots of good shots for your team?
And Wemby right now, the reason he's the best player
in the world is, yes, he can do all these
(09:21):
little things. Like Game one, you guard him with wings,
he turns into Shaquille O'Neal, goes for forty to twenty
right Like Game four, the guards have it going, so
he turns into Anthony Davis and he's just dunking everything
on rolls and he's dunking everything in transition. Then you
go to game six and seven, he becomes like a
point guard. He's like attacking Isaiah Hartenstein from the floor
and takes like thirteen jump shots in that game. It
(09:42):
hits a bunch of them, and he can kind of
shape shift into all these different roles. But fundamentally, the
reason why his offensive floor is so much higher than
it appears in the box score as you just run
a ball screen with him and he rolls hard, and
you're just getting a guard who can throw a skip
pass and you're gonna get open looks, and that is
that is fundamentally what makes them so hard to guard
(10:02):
is you just have these three headed Do you have
this three headed attack at the guard spot who runs
these pick and rolls. Wenby rolls hard, and Champagne can
hit the threes on the skip, Devin Vessel can hit
the threes off the skip. They just play really well
off of the advantage that Wenby creates rolling towards the rim.
I was super impressed with those young guys they colin.
They dominated that game, even the common times, even a
(10:23):
couple of times that okay see took a lead day
immediately like they had took a little point ly late
in the second seven ozer run to end the half.
They took a little lead in the early third quarter
immediately blew the game open from there, like they they
rolled up in there and played like a team that
thought they were better and controlled it from start to finish.
I just it's causing me to reevaluate my kind of
opinion as it pertains to young basketball players succeeding in
(10:45):
the playoffs. It's just so amazing.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Like two months ago, Rachel Nichols and I went through
the playoffs. It was like six weeks ago, I picked
san Antonio at Boston. But what was funny is I
felt way better about Boston than San Antonio was, Like
Boston is almost the garant san Antonio. I'm waving. I
don't know if they can win a game seven in
Oklahoma City, but I mean so, I think it was
(11:09):
a couple of weeks ago, Ryan Risillo and I started
talking about this, and it was after game one and
I said, in the second half San Antonio One, I said, Okay,
as I'm watching and I'm losing my mind, I'm like,
Sam Presty has got to be thinking, Okay, Holmgren is ineffective.
Hartenstein I'm losing. Although Hartenstein is is just you know,
(11:32):
I mean, the Knicks. We're devastated when he left. He'll
probably leave, okase that floater is weird and it works,
and I think he's one of those guys that players
know how good he is. Fans may not pay attention,
but if you ask players no the league about Hartenstein,
they're like, yeah, guys that that's a baller. But I
suggested this to Ryan. I said, I'd give up Homegren.
(11:55):
I mean, you can watch them play against Wemby. It's
just not going to work. And Wemby he's got I mean,
home Groun's closer to his ceiling than Wemby is. I'm like,
it's a mismatch.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Shouldn't be it is?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I said, okay, I'll move that piece. Jay Dubb I've
never been a big fan. I like him, I don't
love him injuries, and again, I just think the ceiling's lower.
I don't know, it just my personal taste. And I
said Aj Mitchell four draft picks, and we all laughed.
He goes, Dude, it's one game, subtle down. But you
watch that series and you watch SGA's you know there's
(12:32):
some ceiling here. You watch Wemby, you know Sam Presty's
watching this go twenty years old, twenty one years old,
twenty two years old. He's watching Holmegrun's limitations, he's losing Hartenstein.
It is not crazy to me that Sam Presty. I
don't think it's reactionary, Jason. I think sometimes you just
go we can do a rinse and repeat. Yannis may
(12:54):
be the league's answer for three years. I mean, I
don't think it's crazy, even though the series went seven.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Man.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
This is super fascinating Colin, because there's there's so many
different angles to this offseason for OKC that are worth
considering in the sense that I think, on the one hand,
it's important to admit and every GM should be self aware.
I think it's important to admit that Shae JDub Chet
(13:23):
is not going to be as good over the coming
years as Webbin, Yama, Harper Castle. I think it may
not be close, and it may not be close because
Wenby's already better than Shane. He's going to continue to
get better. I like JDub, but I think both Castle
and Harper have the ability to surpass him one day.
And Sheet I think is there are some real limitations
that came out of that series. But it gets convoluted
(13:47):
when you start to look at the way that the
salaries work, because Shay's deal has one more year that's
in the mid forties, but then his it's low forties. Actually,
the following year, his salary skyrockets into the sixties and
he starts making a ton of money. Starting next year,
both JDub and Chett will make eighty million between the
two of them, So they're in the phase now where
(14:09):
all these dudes are getting paid. So it's a little
bit more complicated, and just simply Yannis's salary makes it
pretty difficult to actually imagine the machinations of them ducking
underneath the second apron and then putting the salaries together
to go after Giannis. I also frankly think that I
don't understand why Giannis would want to do that. Why
(14:30):
would he want to go to OKC to be in
a situation where he's not going to get a ton
of credit if they win, Like everyone remembers Kevin Durant
signing with the Warriors, and it wasn't necessarily a thing
that benefited Steph or KD. Like Steph was underrated after that,
and remember Dame was talking trash about him in the
regular season, like guys were like, oh, Steph doesn't have
help now, and that he had to win that twenty
(14:51):
twenty two title for everyone to finally acknowledge how good
he was as a player. And KD still to this day,
no one gives him credit for those two titles he
won in Golden State. I don't think Giannis wants that.
I also just think it's it's really difficult financially to
pull off what I think makes the most sense for
Sam Presty in this draft. I think he's got to
target somebody in the draft. And the main reason why
(15:13):
is those dudes make all that money. You need discount talent.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Now.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
You need players that are really good that don't make
a lot of money. And yes, Chet has a Wemby problem,
but he's really good against the other twenty eight teams
in the league.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
He really is, because it is so is this a
Nandi Mara? You take your two draft picks, you move
up to nine or eight, and you get the seven
to three Spaniard center. Who's ash? I mean to me
that that's a cheap and that guy can just I mean,
let's face it, most college kids one year out aren't
gonna get the rotation for the Spurs. R okay, see,
(15:47):
I mean that that level of basketball last night, Jason
was insane. It was in It was it was Celtics Lakers.
It was like one am I watching there's like eight
potential Hall of Fame level guy guys well who could
come in from college and help you seven to three
rim protector? I'm much better, I mean, like Zach Edie
(16:08):
with better feet, better passer. Like to me, that makes
I mean, is that the direction you're going in?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
I think whether it's Mara or it's Jaxe Landenborg, or
if I was Sam, I'd be calling up on Cam
Boozer and I'd be like, hey, do you want three
or four firsts for us to jump up and take
Cam and you can have our draft pick down at
eleven or twelve or whatever it is. You can still
have a lottery player in this draft and fill your
(16:35):
draft trove. Let us hop up and grab a guy
like Cam. I think the reason why I would not
necessarily go for Mara is I really think Hartenstein causes
some problems for Wemby. He's a very unique matchup in
that he's very physically strong and laterally quick enough to
kind of beat Wenby to spots. One of the biggest
stories of this series is that Hartenstein was one of
(16:55):
Okayse's most valuable players and just how physically he could
match up. So I think it's more likely that they
re up would like get Hartenstein to opt out and
extend him at a team friendly number somewhere around like
a Tea twenty million. I don't think they're The thing
with Chet is like again, he's so good against everyone else,
Like they said this after the game last night, and
(17:16):
and it's the truth. They're like we we we've been
the number one seed in the West ever since Chet
was on our team. And that's a fact because he's
so good at protecting the rim. He's such a ceiling
razor on both ends of the floor and like a
foundational piece for them against everyone else. And here's the thing.
Chet's got to figure out a way to be better
against the Spurs. He I thought he got punked both
mentally and physically in this series. I thought he got
(17:37):
exposed for being too slow. He was frank, like, his
three point shots too slow, his decision making off the
catches too slow. Like, He's got to revamp his game
to be able to play in this matchup. And that
is a fact. But I think any trade off letting
go of Chet would cause a dramatic drop in a
lot of their foundational qualities throughout the rest of the
regular season and for other matchups.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
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All right, we got thirty minutes. I wanted to bring
on Ian O'Connor, a friend and whenever there's New York stuff,
he's so well connected, and I was thinking driving home
(19:54):
today knowing you were going to be on. So I
always had this theory with the Knicks that they were
all just there was just a bad smell around the
organization for years. James Dolan fighting the press. You know,
the Charles Oakley stuff is kind of the tip of
the iceberg. There's just been a lot of uncomfortable relationships
(20:18):
and the media. I mean I would read New York
media and think this is this is toxic. And then
my theory was James Dolan, who has great musical connections,
went on about a four year journey to Vegas and
the Sphere and he could return to New York, but
(20:39):
he was at least physically at times and emotionally a
bit disconnected from the organization. His emotion was really into
the Sphere, which has been an incredible hit, the greatest
music venue in the world, and he deserves credit. And
it was it was it was about Leon Rose gets
hired and his first big hire as Tibbs. And you know, Dolan,
(21:00):
I'm sure had an impact on this, but it does
feel like and Dolan, now this Sphere has gone, it's successful,
it's done and completed. But it does feel like there
was a bit of a pivot or a tipping point
where Dolan was a bit removed worldwide West. Leon Rose
(21:20):
come in and kind of have a lot of leverage
and a lot of say is that me sort of
creating a story that doesn't exist, because it feels like
the timelines do kind of connect the Sphere and the
building of Tibbs and Brunson was the first. I think
Brunson was twenty twenty two. Does this connect or is
(21:42):
it just am I hype farming on this and hoping
it's true?
Speaker 4 (21:47):
No, No, I think it connects. Colin and great to
see you listen. I remember having a conversation with James Dolan.
It was at least a two hour interview, and I
was at ESPN dot com at the time, and the
Sphere it was in its infancy, and he kept wanting
to talk about it, and I wanted to talk about
(22:08):
the Nicks, and I gave his time, and some of the.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Sphere of stuff was in the piece.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
In retrospect, I'm thinking I underplayed it, because you're right.
It's everybody I know who has been to that venue
has loved it, and it's a great thing. I do
think his time away, he's certainly back now and more
engaged was back then. The Sphere was a very big
part of his life in every way. People who know
him well said what you just said now. George Steinberner
(22:38):
was suspended in the early nineties, and while he was away,
Geen Michael, the executive and Buck Showalter the manager rebuilt
the Yankees, and they were a mess at the point
that Steinberner was suspended. By the time George got back,
things have been cleaned up to a George Steinberner had
(22:58):
a very positive impact on the Yankee dynasty of the nineties.
Is willingness to suspend the urgency he creates every day
did have some positives attached to it, without questioning, Derek
Jeter would be the first person to tell you that.
So I think Dolan was away, and I also think
he looked at Bob Myers and Golden State former agent.
(23:20):
He looked at Rob Polinka with the Lakers former agent,
and he said, let me do something different. He tried
Phil Jackson as the savior of the franchise right now.
Larry Brown failed with Isaiah Thomas, Mike D'Antoni. There have
been all kinds of coaching front office saviors brought in
under Dolan who all failed. And he tried something different
with an agent in Leon Rose.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And by the way, Leon Rose did not.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
He had his misses early on Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier,
Kim Rehpp and Guy Yeah. Tims didn't want Tims didn't
want those players, and so he got better. Leon Rose
got better and better and better, just like his team,
just like his players.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Every year.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
You have to give Dolan credit for taking the gamble
to hire Rose. My suspicion, actually it's more than a suspicion,
is that Dolan didn't really want to hire TIBs. I
think Dolan wanted to hire Jason Kidd. James Dolan wan
it comes to coaches, when it comes to executives, He's
a star chaser at times, and Tibbs is a very
(24:20):
good coach, but not a charismatic figure, not a big personality.
Maybe not a star in the traditional concept of it.
But anyway, he listened to Leon Rose, who used to
represent Tibbs. It was a great hire. Tibbs did exactly
for the Knicks what Bugs Show Walter did for the Yankees,
cleaning up the mess, restoring competence, professionalism, accountability. But then
(24:41):
when it came time to get over the hump, Steinberger
decided to go in a different direction with his fourth
choice really for the job, in Joe Tory, a mister
nice guy had been fired a bunch of times, age
fifty five. Mike Brown, mister nice guy, age fifty five,
fired like Joe Tory by three different organizations.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
It really is striking the similarities. And we'll see.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
If Mike Brown can have a little bit of that
Joe Tory's success coming up here in the coming days,
and then maybe beyond.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Well Tory it had some failures and success. Same with
Mike Brown. So they come in known as guys, you know,
the Don Zimmer Joe Tory bench. I mean, Tory was
known as a guy that people liked. I always said
Joe Tory was like that really formidable step dad that
you never wanted to disappoint. And he was your little
(25:31):
league coach. And he may not have been your biological dad,
but he was just as good as your biological dad,
and he had there was a certain masculinity to Tory
that you just never wanted to disappoint Joe, And I
do think I think Mike.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Brown, by the way, Colin Tino Martinez said those exact
words you just said. I never wanted to disappoint him
because it was like playing for my father. That's crazy, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Mike and Mike Brown, who's worked with Up, who's worked
with kerr Rick Carlisle, is very much seen as a listener,
a collaborator, can enforce rules. I mean he'll go up
to Cat and say, you know, or somebody and say, hey,
your hat's on backwards, come on, let's get it together.
But by and large, somebody that players really respect and
(26:19):
like when they were struggling against Atlanta. Let's just go
back a couple sits. I remember watching that thinking CJ.
McCollum is going to knock the Knicks out of the playoffs?
What the hell am I watching? They were a bad
team in March. Who got in Brown's ear on the
Carl Anthony Towns tweak.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
I think Towns made the suggestion initially, but and I
don't take anything away from Brown's decision if it wasn't
his original idea, because that's why they hired him, and
that's why. Now, Tom Thibodeau did a very good job,
and he didn't deserve to be fired. He took the
next to the conference finals last year for the first
time in a quarter century. You don't get fired off
(26:57):
of I beat the Celtics, and you look at the
way they knocked out the Celtics. That route that Game
six was was unbelievable. He didn't deserve to be fired.
But Mike Brown was a great hire for the reasons
that Dolan and Leon Rose stated. So both things can
be true at the same time. TIB's got an unfair deal,
but Mike Brown actually was better for this team. Now,
(27:19):
if you're a TIBs supporter. You might say, well, if
he had Atlanta, Philly and Cleveland, he would have gone
to the finals too, right, So anyway, I'm sure he's
sitting at home and it hurts right to see the
team you built and put together now being led by
somebody else, probably maybe to a championship. But so let's
Kat makes the initial suggestion, but Mike Brown acts on it.
(27:41):
And here's where you got to give Brown a lot
of credit. He knows he's been around the league's been
fired four times by three different franchises. If this goes sideways,
I take one of my two franchise cornerstones with brunts
and Kat being the other, and I turn him into
a point guard at seven feet tall.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And if this doesn't work, I'm done.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
I mean he is one and done and getting fired
and that is it. And they're blowing up that roster.
If they lose to Atlanta, they're down two to one.
It looked like Quinn Snyder was out coaching him, and
I gave him all the credit in the world for
not fearing the consequences of a potential disaster. They're losing
that first round series to Atlanta and deciding, you know what,
Cat right, this would be better for this team right now,
(28:22):
and lo and behold. Ever since then, basically the Knicks
have not lost. And it unlocked everything about the offense
that you hadn't seen before, and Jalen brunts and getting
him off the ball a little bit. Man, the Knicks
have been an entirely different team ever since Brown made
that move.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
There, I was talking one time. I said something about
Villanova guys on the air, and Jay Wright reached out
to me and texted me and he said, you know,
he goes You've always been so respectful of Villanova, And
I said, you know, I covered Jay when he was
at un l V under Rollie Masamino, the late Rolli Masamino.
And I remember meeting Jay. I was a sportscaster in Vegas,
and you knew immediately he was going to be a star.
I mean, he was like twenty six. He looked like
(29:00):
George Clooney. I'm like, oh, this guy can recruit. So
he ends up at Villanova. And I always felt that
of all the basketball programs in the country, Villanova's was
sort of the anti Calipari. It's like, we're gonna go
get We're gonna recruit from the DMV. We're gonna get
cops kids. We're gonna get tough kids that play defense,
more three star offen than four or five. But they're
gonna stay here, They're gonna go to class, they're gonna
(29:22):
be leaders. And it may sound cliche, but I don't
think it is. Josh Hart, Bridges, Bruntson, We're all sensational
in Game one in their own way, right, the rebounding
with heart, Bridges who finally missed a free throw, which
almost never happens, Brunson's closing despite an off shooting eye.
He was great in the fourth. There is something. I
(29:44):
believe this to be true because the Knicks camaraderie is
almost collegiate. I mean, remember, the Spurs are drafted and
develop and they're mostly the same age. The Knicks are.
Trade for this guy, trade for that guy, acquire that guy,
free age that guy. It could very easily be a
disjointed locker room. Yet it's not that yet. They're I
(30:08):
mean they seem to. I mean, there are big personalities
and big stars in New York, elevated by the media,
and it does feel like the villanova thing isn't just
a term or you know, a cliche. The Knicks feels
strangely close for a professional team that came from different organizations, franchises, coasts, backgrounds.
(30:35):
That's what it feels like to me.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Yeah, And that's what it feels like to wal Frasier,
who I talked to last night and I've talked with
him about this in the past. Dave de Busher's family
I talked to, and they're all saying the same thing.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
This reminds us of the the the sort of there.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Was a camelot in New York in the early seventies
with the Red Holtzman Nicks. The way they shared the ball,
people of backgrounds and races coming together and really a
love affair between the city and that team, that one
in seventy and seventy three at the expense of Will
Chamberlain and the Lakers.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And those are the only two championships the Knicks have
ever won, to believe it or not.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
And so the way they share the ball on Mike
Brown's team, the way they play defense, and they clearly
play with a joy, They play for one another, and Colin,
I think this is not rare in New York. But
what I really like about covering this team as a
columnist is they are likable human beings. Mike Brown likable,
Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns and the rest of them,
(31:29):
the Villanova guys. You know, that's a program. Jay Wright
wanted the best to ever do it. They don't just
have a team, they have a program. They build people,
and they build players. There really complete people and players.
And having the three of them together. I understand it
was five first round picks for McHale Bridges, but I
was all for getting Bridges and I actually had tweet
they traded him. But I listen, if you told me
(31:51):
five first round picks, I'd be like, maybe I'm not
so all for them anymore.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I would have maybe said three or four.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
But it's worked out and Leon Rose has done a
great job of putting character high character people in that
locker room. Carl Anthony Town's a very quick story. He
has a relationship with a woman whose son was killed
in Afghanistan at US Marine. Yes, typically because the son
went to Katz High School Saint Jose Mtouchein.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
He never met the soldier.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
He was a different age, ten years younger, and he
did a very simple gesture in a basketball game. He
scored twenty five points and stopped at twenty five to
honor the soldier who was twenty five when he was killed.
And he's still friends with that woman today, had her
at a recent game, and it just common decency. I
see that in these Knicks. They are very genuine people.
Makes them easy to root for. And maybe you wouldn't
(32:44):
have said that ordinarily about a James Dolan team, but
this is a very very likable, embraceable group and that's
part of the reason why the entire region has really
rallied behind this team. Unlike I've covered what five Yankee
these championship teams, I've covered two Giants championship teams and
some other really good teams with the Knicks in the nineties.
(33:06):
But this team is as well liked, I think by
the city as any I've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, it's And for the record, let me defend the
Knicks on the five draft picks. That was pre nil,
when the drafts were increasingly sporadic and awful. Now this
year's draft is a bona fide nil draft where many
players stayed in longer so giving up. You know, Rudy
Gobert got nine picks Rudy Gobert today would get three,
(33:33):
Michale would get two. But at that time, I mean
it was a one and done. I mean were you
were drafting kids who weren't ready to play. So there
were some bad drafts for about a ten year stretch.
So it sounds outrageous to say five picks that's what
you give up now for maybe a Yannis. But at
that time, you know, Rudy Gobert a couple of years
ago got nine. He got played off the floor by Wemby.
(33:55):
So I'll defend I will defend the Knicks. Brunson's fascinating
because if I said to you name two stars in
the NBA that took team friendly deals, you'd say Brunson,
and you couldn't name another. It's really you hear about
it in football for quarterbacks, and you do not hear it.
That's right, you do not hear it in the NBA.
(34:17):
Let's go back to that signing, because I think that
is so rare in pro basketball. Let's go back to
that deal when it was signed. I remember reading about it,
you were living it. How is it perceived by teammates
and people in the organization that an NBA player emerging
as a star. Hey, I'm going to take much less
(34:38):
than I could.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
Well, I think he'll make that up down down the road,
and oh he will. That's part of it. But I
also think it showed he got it. Like, Hey, if
I'm the guy who ends a fifty three year or
whatever would have been fifty four to fifty five year.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Drought in New York City, a great basketball.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
Town that's been asleep for a long time, If I'm
the one who does that, that is worth so much
more than another five, ten, fifteen, twenty million dollars. And
he got it then, you know, partly because maybe he
came out of a program that taught those values at Villanova.
That and when you make a certain amount of money,
how much do you need for one? And that's priceless
(35:19):
and you ask will Well, you know, unfortunately Willis is
no longer with us, But so I used to talk
to him about it, and I talked to well Fraser
about it last night, and actually Walt said that Brunson
is a combination of the two of them. He has
the tenacity of Willis reed and he's as cool as
I am basically as well. That's a pretty good combination.
(35:40):
To have and I used to have a lot of
conversations with Willis Reid and we were all I was
eight years old when they won their last title in
nineteen seventy three. I do remember that team, and we've
all been waiting for a team to be like that.
In the nineties, Knicks were really good. They weren't good
enough to beat Jordan or Elijah on but they were
really good, rugged, physical, Big ten football teams.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
This team is different.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
This team is like the seventies Knicks, and Brunson is
the biggest reason why. He leads with the generosity of spirit,
brings people in and just talked earlier today. I asked
him a question about the fan support on the road,
which has been just off the charts for the Knicks.
He said, his wife and Jalen and family, they never
(36:25):
take that for granted. They've been feeling the love ever
since he arrived in New York and that was it. Listen,
It's one of the greatest signings in the history of
New York sports when you consider he was so undervalued
and Mavericks could have paid to keep them right, it
would have been a bargain and a half if they
(36:46):
kept him and I will say this, if the Knicks
win it all, there should be a statue at some
point outside the Garden of Brunson, and also a second
statue of whoever the official was in the organization who
authorized the tampering that was necessary to get Jalen Brunton
to sign. And because you know the Knicks lost, they
what a twenty twenty five second round pick for tampering.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
That is the greatest case of all time.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
Right, you said, all right, you gotta sort of I
don't want to say cheap, but Ben the rules, maybe
break them a little, get Jalen Brunton, but we're gonna
take a second round pick from you in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I think you would make that deal.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
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