Jason reacts to big NBA storylines over the weekend including Rich Paul's ’Game Over’ podcast and the consequences it could have on the Philadelphia 76ers, Max Kellerman calling for Joel Embiid to be traded, Tony Allen calling out LeBron James’s defense, following up on the Spike Eskin episode, and the Golden State Warriors continuing to fail Steph Curry — this time by passing on Jaylen Brown before the Boston Celtics traded him to the Sixers.
All lines presented by Hard Rock Bet.
#Volume
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Volume. All right, welcome to him tonight here at
the Volume Heavy Monday, everybody. I hope all of you
guys had an incredible weekend. Got a jampack show for
(00:22):
you guys today. I have five big takeaways from the weekend.
I want to talk a little bit about the Game
Over podcast with Rich Paul and Max Kellerman, some of
the things they said, some of the fallout of some
of the ways that they behave on that show. We're
going to talk about that debate about Tony Allen versus
Lebron James on defense, which I thought was fascinating. I
have some follow up on our Spike Skin pod. And
(00:42):
then at the tail end of the show, I want
to talk about the report that the Golden State Warriors
passed on Jalen Brown or we're just kind of generally
uninterested in him. To be clear, just real quick about
our schedule this week. We're doing this stuff today, the
kind of five takeaways from the weekend. We are starting
player rankings officially on Wednesday. We're going to do our
kind of rules, kind of go over how the list works,
(01:03):
and then I have seven players that we're going to
hit that we're like honorable mention on Wednesday, and then
Friday will be the first chunk of players on the
list number twenty five, twenty four, and twenty three.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So the player.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Rankings are starting this week, starting on Wednesday. You guys
are the two before we started. Subscribe to Hoops and
not YouTube channels. You don't miss any more of our videos.
We still have a goal to get to one hundred
and fifty thousand subs. I got about seven thousand more
to go, and you guys can help us a lot
just by scrolling down and hitting that subscribe button. If
you're already subscribed like this video, sign up for post notifications.
(01:36):
That helps us a lot. And then no mailbag this week.
But the way the mailbags are going to work, we're
gonna have mailbags kind of centered around the player rankings
list starting a week from this Friday. I obviously want
to get some players out there, so you guys have
some mailbag questions to ask. But our mailbags are very
much going to be a debate about the player rankings,
so I want you guys to come prepared with arguments
(01:58):
for why you guys disagree with the players are rank
will start a week from Friday, all right, let's talk
some basketball. So our first big takeaway from the weekend.
Rich Paul is free to podcast about whatever he wants,
but let's not pretend like there aren't consequences for the
things you say on that type of forum. It's you
(02:18):
know again. We could argue about whether or not it
should have had a big impact on Lebron James leaving
the Lakers in the fracturing of his relationship there, but
it certainly was part of that deterioration. Lebron's so good
at basketball that the Lakers should have kept him, just
like the Sixers shouldn't be concerned about whether or not
it's worth it to have Lebron James. But it was
(02:39):
part of that deterioration. The relationship that Rich Paul has
with Lebron James makes this sort of thing complicated. Take
some of the specific things we've heard from Rich, like
him talking about how this could all be good for vj.
Edgecomb as long as he accepts a smaller role in
(03:00):
a winning context, or the stuff about Lebron being basically
like a media shield for Jalen Brown. Now, if guys
like me or anybody else in the media, or any
fan for that matter, if you guys make those assertions,
it's basically just analysis of a situation, and I don't
even necessarily disagree with anything there.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Like I do think that VJ.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Edgecumb learning how to play a smaller role in a
winning context could actually help him in the long run
of his career. I do think that having Lebron around
will help with managing the media circus surrounding the team.
But if Rich Paul says it, it feels more direct.
It's Lebron's agent thinks VJ. Edgecomb should take a back seat.
(03:43):
Lebron's agent thinks Austin Reeves is overpaid. Lebron's agent thinks
Austin Reeves should be traded. Lebron's agent thinks, even though
Jaylen Brown will be thirty years old at the start
of next season, that he somehow needs help handling media circus.
And again I don't even necessarily disagree, Like Jalen Brown's
behavior with the media has been kind of weird over
(04:05):
the last year and mismanaged a little bit, but it's
just different and it feels more direct when it comes
from Lebron's agent. The bottom line is the seventy six
Ers are gonna be a circus next year. No matter
how things go, the Star powers off the charts, the
storylines are riveting, they have legitimate championship expectations, and there
are a half dozen ways it could go horribly wrong
(04:28):
that the media will be prepared to pounce on. I
mean we saw that firsthand in Lebron's free agency, the
way that the whiteboard and some of the comments that
were made kind of caused massive waves.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
In NBA media.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
This is like, this team is going to have enough
to deal with without Lebron's agent kicking up dust every
week with this pot Again, I'm not saying that Rich
shouldn't have a podcast. I'm just saying, like, there are
consequences to the things we say. It's that classic reality, right,
like we all have freedom of speech, but we don't
(05:04):
have freedom from consequences, and that could get super serious
right on the high end legal. I thought it was
super funny the other day when Trump did his latest
election fraud speech and even Fox News was like, we're
not talking about it, and they just ignored it and
moved on. You know why, because they lost their ass
in a lawsuit when they inappropriately piggybacked on that whole
(05:27):
election lie back in twenty twenty with the dominion voting machines,
like they fucked around and found out that there are
consequences to the things that you say when you go
lie on television or say things on television. But even
on the low end, if you have a platform and
you say things about other people, there are potentially consequences
(05:48):
with the way that people will respond to the things
that you say. Say that, like Max Kellerman pitches the
idea of a VJ Edgecombe trade a month into the
season because Vja's struggling, kind of like he already did
with em Beat, which we're gonna hit later on in
the show. If Rich doesn't handle it deftly, it could
be all over ESPN, all over FS ONE, all over
(06:10):
Twitter for a few days. And if you don't think
that that could have an impact on a twenty one
year old kid who's struggling with a small role, I
don't know what to tell you. Frankly, to me, it
feels kind of a bit unnecessary right now considering how
successful Rich is, you know, separate from this media universe.
And I'd argue, like even just waiting until Lebron retires
(06:32):
because of just how big of a media machine Lebron is.
Even just waiting until Lebron retires could go a long
way to making this a more like feasible venture for
him that doesn't have like trickle down impacts with the
way that things are said. There's just a lot of
pressure if the way this team is covered is going
to involve a popular podcast where every storyline of the
(06:55):
season is going to be discussed. And you have Max Kellerman,
who very much plays the meati. He's a hot take
guy personified. I want a godala right, like to have
that guy asking Rich Paul questions every single week surrounding
the team has the potential to be a distraction. That
is just a fact. Number two, Max Kellerman. As we're
(07:19):
sticking on the game over Pod here for a second,
Max Kellerman on the Game over Pod pitched the idea
of trading Joel Embiid. I personally think it's way too
early to consider moving a player of Joel's caliber, So
I understand the general idea here, right, You've got a
player that is on a massive salary that is kind
(07:43):
of the odd man out of this group in some ways.
You know, Lebron transition athlete Jaylen Brown, transition athlete Tyres
maxivj Edgecomb. They're just super fast, right, and Joel Embiid
is slow, and he's reached this phase of his career
where he's still very good offensively when he's health but
on defense there's major question marks if he has to
venture anywhere away from the rim, and there's just general
(08:06):
health question marks, right. And so I'm not opposed to
the idea of potentially trading Joel Embiid if the situation
calls for it. I just think it's way too early
because there's enough upside there that it's worth exploring. So
I've talked about this idea before. But when I look
at like what happened to Jalen Brown, specifically in that
(08:30):
first round series where he started to struggle because Joel
Embiid was trolling the paint and turning Jalen into just
a mid range player, right, Not that Jalen Brown can't
do that, but it just took away one of the
most impactful parts of his game, the ability to get
all the way to the basket. Right now, Joel Embiid
is a counter to that very situation. On the other
(08:51):
end of the floor, his ability to reliably knock down,
catch and shoot three spaces the floor and creates opportunity
to get to the basket more easily. I think about
Jaylen Brown, and I think about Lebron James, who, by
the way, he has been playing without spacing fives for
this entire last third of his career. I think about
Tyrese Maxi, one of the fastest players in the NBA,
(09:12):
and I think about all the upside if you have
a five man and Joel Embiid that can consistently pull
that guy away from the basket, and there is no oh,
we're gonna guard him with a ford, Joel will bury
that dude under the basket. There's no hiding your center
on a non shooter. That center's gotta guard Joel Embiid,
or you're just throwing the ball to him in the
post and he's doing what he did to the Celtics
(09:34):
in the first round. Even if you have a center,
if he's not the right kind of center, Joel's gonna
annihilate that dude. There is so much offensive upside that
I think it is at the very least worthwhile to
go into the season with Joel Embiid and just see
how it looks now, if you get a couple months
into the season and it's abundantly clear that the styles clash,
(09:54):
Joel struggles to play on offense with all the ball handling,
Joel's footspeed ends up being a major is you with
their transition game or with what they're doing on defense.
If it just looks obvious that the best version of
the team involves the four other guys and Joel sticks
out like a sore thumb, by all means, consider trading
him at that point injuries. If Joel goes down with
(10:15):
some sort of neat thing and it's like, Okay, well
we need to attach a pick to his contract in
order to multiple picks to his contract in order to
try to bring back useful players. I understand that, but
at the very least you got to go into the
season with Joel.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
To explore that upside.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Joel and b when he's healthy, is just simply one
of the very best offensive players in the NBA, and
his unique ability to space out rim protection could cause
all sorts of problems for defenses. Again, if you look
at the clunkiness of this group, you know a lot
of people will think, oh, Lebron James Jylen Brown vj
edgecomb this kind of Miami heat esque like Heatles ESK
(10:57):
where maybe Lebron and d Wade or just slashers that
don't play off of each other super well and if
they can't space the floor, that can cause problems. Right,
But what happened when they moved Chris Bosh to the five.
When they moved Chris Bosh to the five in the
later years of the Heatles and they started spacing out centers,
(11:18):
all of a sudden, Lebron James and Dwayne Wade were
just feasting at the rim.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That's the thing.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Like this, this whole thing could be clunky, but if
you get a spacing five out there, it could make
it just work in a way that's devastating. So again,
I think you got to explore keeping Joel and beat
on the team, at least in the short term. Number
three Tony Allen had this long, you know take about
(11:45):
how Lebron James was. Oh, he had a lot of stuff,
says he was targeted on defense, which again I don't
I don't remember Lebron James ever really being targeted on
defense until like last year when he's just older and
slower and some of the quicker players can go go
around him. But players certainly scored on Lebron James in
his career, but it was never like, oh, we're picking
(12:06):
on Lebron James. It was like, oh, it was a
late clock situation I happened to be going against him,
or a random possession here or there. No one was
targeting Lebron James for the vast majority of his career.
He said that he kind of like simplified his overall
defensive impact down to just chase down blocks. He used
the word overrated. He said that he avoided guarding primary options,
and it kind of sparked this debate about the difference
(12:28):
between a guy like Tony Allen on defense and a
guy like Lebron James on defense. I think this is
really complicated. I've always had a hard time lumping in
star level defenders with role player defenders just because of
the reality of the job. Right Like I when I
was in college at Arizona Christian my last year, I
(12:53):
came in as a scoring type of dude. I was
an All Conference player of the previous year and JUCO
had a bunch of big scoring games. But I went
onto a team that had two All American guards, and
they didn't want me with the ball ever, And it
was perfectly fine under the circumstances of that team. We
had much better offensive players than me. You should not
have given me the ball. But it allowed me to
(13:14):
become like this just defender. I just guarded the other
team's best player every single night, and I rebounded and
I defended. I'd occasionally take an open catch and shoot three,
do a handful of things here or there. But the
other guys handled the offense and I guarded the other
team's best player.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
That was my job.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And what it did is it allowed me to kind
of just devote all my energy in that direction. As
I've gotten older and a lot more skilled offensively, and
I'm playing in men's leagues and I'm playing in pickup
runs and private runs and stuff like that, I have
a lot more offensive responsibility. And guess what, it's not
as easy for me to guard the other team's best
player with the same level of.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Energy that I usually do.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
But then I'll play, you know, with a particular pickup
run where I've got good ball handlers on the team,
or I'll play in a pro am here in Denver
and I'll be on a team with a lot more talent,
and all of a sudden, it's like I can devote
on my energy to defense, and it's almost like for me,
it's like going back in time to what it was
like when I was at Arizona Christian where that was
all I did, and all of a sudden, I have
(14:14):
like this tons of energy and focus for that specific job.
The reality is is that, like when you're talking about
a Tony Allen in the NBA, his job is fundamentally
different than a Jalen Brown or a Lebron James, right,
and like, for instance, the idea of him guarding primary options,
(14:35):
it would be stupid to deploy Lebron James as a
primary perimeter defensive option from the opening tip of every
single game. All it would cause is him to not
do is good of a job because he doesn't have
the energy for it, or to do too good of
a job and have it have an impact on the
energy reserves. He has to be good on the offensive
(14:57):
end of the floor. Lebron was always capable of that
sort of thing. It was just something that they only
deployed in high leverage situations. Okay, it's the end of
the Eastern Conference Finals in twenty eleven. Let's have Lebron
James guard Derreck Rose. Okay, it's the gold the semi
final game in the Olympics. Let's have Lebron James gard
(15:18):
Nikola Jokic for the entire fourth quarter. Okay, it's the
twenty twenty Western Conference Finals. And the Jamal Murray Nicole
Jokic pick and roll is causing problems. We want to
be able to switch it. So let's put Lebron James
on Jamal Murray and Anthony Davis on Nikola Jokic, and
let's switch. And we're gonna just use Lebron as the
guy who can both guard Jamal Murray and switch on
(15:40):
to Nikola Jokic.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
And he's good.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
But they only did that at like, what was it
the final few minutes of Game four of that series,
if I remember correctly. So it's like, at the end
of the day, Lebron has always been capable of that
sort of thing. They've just been his coaching stabs and
his teams have been like kind of selective about when
they want to use him in that specific.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Way as a product of his energy reserves.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Now, does that mean he was as good at guarding
perimeter players as Tony Allen. No like. Talk to anybody
who's played in the Tony Allen era and they'll tell
you he was one of the best, if not the best,
perimeter defenders in the league.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I know.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Kevin Durant has personally said that Tony Allen was the
guy that gave him the most issues. But again, that
was the one thing that he did and it was
why he was in the NBA. He was a professional
perimeter defender. Today's show is brought to you by a
presenting sponsor, Hard Rock Bets Sportsbook. Some sports fans call
this slow period until football season, but Hard Rock Bet
(16:39):
we call it baseball season. In this summer, hard Rock
Bet has the hottest betting odds in Florida, introducing ten
cents summer sale, big juice fee, whatever you call it.
We're cutting our cut on winners, spreads and over under
pregame baseball bets, same bets, betterands. If you're ready to
step into the batters box, sign up with hard Rock
(17:01):
Bet today and place a five dollars bet. If it wins,
you get one hundred and fifty dollars in bonus bets
on top of your winnings. That's right, an extra one
hundred and fifty dollars in your account and sure, hard
Rock Bet is Florida's only legal sports book. But if
you don't, you don't have to be in Florida to
join the party. Hard Rock Bet is also live in Arizona, Ohio,
New Jersey, Indiana, Tennessee, Virginia, Illinois, Colorado, and Michigan, with
(17:23):
more states on the way. So grab your bat and
swing for the fences all August long during hard Rock
Bets ten cent Summer Sale. Download the hard Rock Bet
app today and roll with us payble and bonus bets
not a cash offer offered by the Seminole Tribe of
Florida and Florida offered by Seminal hard Rock Digital, LLC
and all other states. Valid for money lines spread and
over under pregame markets with odds between minus two to
(17:44):
fifty and plus two to fifty only. Must be twenty
one plus and physically president in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan,
New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee or Virginia to play. Terms and
conditions apply. Concerned about gambling in Florida called one eight
three to three play wise in Indiana view or someone
you know has a gambling problem and wants help, call
one eight hundred and nine with it in Arizona, Ohio
(18:05):
and Virginia called one eight hundred my reset gambling problem,
called one hundred gambler in Colorado, Illinois, Michigan, New Jersey,
or Tennessee. So again, like I I think, like even
just the baseline under which we're having this discussion that
Tony Allen's trying to have is flawed because we're talking
(18:27):
about a role player perimeter defender, Excuse me, a role
player perimeter defender versus a guy who has a whole
lot more responsibility on the floor. Now, let's dig a
little bit further into this, because I do think it's fascinating.
I do think that when we talk about, you know,
best defenders in the league, best defenders of all time,
(18:47):
we tend to kind of like focus on specific types
of guys. And I think there's a way to have
that conversation as a as a a when we talk
about team building. So, what is the most valuable type
of defender? To me, the most valuable type of defender
is still to this day, a center, that is versatile,
(19:10):
meaning a guy who can protect the rim, but that
isn't so slow that he can be picked on by speed.
This is why we look at the Victor wembin Yama's,
the Chet Holmgrens, the bam Ata bios, the Anthony Davis
when he was healthy, the Rudy Gobars. They are still
the most valuable defensive players in the league. Why because
in any sort of help side situation, they shut off
(19:32):
the rim and they give you a much more of
a fighting chance and pick and roll. If he can
get up to the level and get back in dynamic
drop coverages, and if he can get up to the
level and switch in circumstances where a guard is really
cooking and you need them to shut that water off,
that is still the most valuable type of defender. From there,
(19:54):
the second most valuable type of defender to me is
the Swiss army knife, the guy that can do a
lot really well. Now does that mean that Lebron James
did that stuff every minute of every game for all
eighty two for his entire career. No, but I do
think he slots into that group, which is like, can
(20:15):
he guard multiple positions on the perimeter Can he also
guard bullyball post up players. Can he also be effective
as a secondary rim protector Lebron James blocking Thiago Splitter
at the rim, Lebron James blocking Tim Duncan at the
rim in low man rotations in the mid twenty tens,
(20:37):
there can you be a all of those things? Secondary
rim protector, defensive rebounding talent guard power forwards and post
up centers switching on to point guards. That to me
is the second most valuable type of defender in the league.
(20:59):
Then the the third most valuable type of defender to
me in the league is that I put this guy
on the other team's best player and he makes life
hell for him for forty eight minutes.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That is a very valuable archetype.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And I would argue Tony Allen was definitely better at that.
Then Lebron was at his job simply because of the
fact that Lebron had other responsibilities on the floor. But
when you got into any big game. Another way for
me to frame this is, there were five minutes left
in Game seven of the NBA Finals. Who do I
(21:35):
think is a better defensive player, a more valuable defensive player,
Lebron James or Tony Allen, I think it's Lebron James,
and I think in many ways he's become underrated in
that specific way. Over the course of his career. He
never got the Defensive Player of the Year award. You know,
he hasn't made an All Defense team since what twenty
fourteen or twenty thirteen, and you know, definitely towards the
(21:59):
tail end of his career he let go of the
rope in the regular season. But still, even even at
this age, even at forty two, like Lebron did that
job on Nikola Jokic as a forty year old man.
Like that, that type of versatility I think is highly underrated.
Did he guard the other team's best player for forty
(22:20):
eight minutes every single night? No?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Did he play super hard all the time? No?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
But Lebron to me fits into that like second tier
of defender, that like versatile dud does everything well defender,
and I think in many ways that's actually more valuable
to constructing a defense than just the guy who can
guard the other.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Team's best player.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
And none of them are gonna be as good as
a Victor or a Chet or a Bam or Anthony
Davis or Rudy Gobert because still to this day a
dynamic rim protector that can also move his feet on
the perimeters, the most valuable defensive player in the world.
Number four had some follow up on the Spike Eskin interview,
(23:03):
and there's two main things that I want to hit here.
First of all, a lot of people were very critical
of me for having him on the show and just
critical of Spike in general. And I don't want to
go too long on this, but just very simply here's
how I feel. One, I wanted to have someone on
the show that was more pessimistic about the team. That
was intentional. You guys know, I'm super high on the
(23:26):
potential that this group has. We had done a lot
of seventy six Ers coverage in the week prior where
we focused on a lot of upside and I wanted
to bring in somebody that had more of a negative
opinion so that we can unpack that a little bit,
and we did. We did that on the show, So
that was intentional. It wasn't like I'm looking for someone
(23:46):
who's negative on the team for any reason other than
to just provide an alternative perspective. Secondly, he like legitimately,
I've met Spike before I met him in Vegas. He's
super nice guy, and this is something I would I again,
this is just my opinion, and I understand like people
feel the way they feel the same reason that you know,
some people look at Lebron James and just can't stand
(24:08):
the guy. Like, I understand that people feel that. I
know there's people that feel the way about me. Just
look at my comments every single show, right, So, like, like,
I'm not trying to tell people how to feel, but
I personally think it's ridiculous to decide you hate a
person because of a sports take. Like do you think
(24:28):
Spike made some sort of weird intentional effort to dislike
Lebron or do you think it's an authentic feeling that
comes from him. It's obviously an authentic feeling. He didn't
liked the guy. I disagree. I disagreed with a lot
of the stuff he said on the show. I know
you guys disagree with him too. That doesn't make him
a bad guy. He's a good dude. Met him before,
(24:49):
when I met him, he was a good dude. He
came on and he provided an alternative perspective, and I
don't think there's anything wrong with that. I do want
to talk a little bit about his take about winning
with excuse me, the idea of how he'd rather lose
without Lebron than win with it. I think there's a
specific point that he made that I want to unpack
(25:10):
a little bit more, and it's the idea of like, oh,
this is just a bunch of mercenaries winning seven or
wearing seventy six ers jerseys. And the point that he
was making was basically like, if we end up trading
Joel Embiid or trading vj Edgecomb and we end up
winning with this like kind of random group of guys,
He's like, yeah, maybe Maxie will still be there, But like,
how is that what is that really going to feel like?
(25:32):
That's like, how is that going to resonate if it's
just like a bunch of different guys. And where I
pushed back on that is like, if you dig back
through NBA history, every single champion tends to be a
combination of homegrown talent and mercenary talent. They all are
(25:54):
just dig back through it, right, like the Knicks, there
are guys that have been there forever, right, Jalen Brunson's
been there for a long time, you know, Josh Hart's
been there for a long time. Obviously, Ojannoby's been there
a little bit longer. But like mckal Bridges and Mitter
Robinson was there for a long time, but like mckail
Bridges and Karl Anthony Towns were like just big acquisitions
(26:18):
a little over a year and a half ago, you know,
and like in that summer before the twenty twenty five campaign, right, so,
like you dig into it and it's it's like it's
a group of guys that were Nicks for a while
with you know, an addition in the form of Jalen Brunson,
which followed with an addition of og Anobi, with an
(26:40):
addition of Karl Anthony Towns and McHale Bridges. It's not
like just some group of homegrown, home drafted talent. It's
kind of like a combination of dudes who have been
there for a while, some longer than others, and then
some last minute editions that push them over the top.
Look at the thunder same exact sort of thing. Yeah,
there's some homegrown talent there in guys like homegrown in
(27:00):
Jalen Williams, but there's also like it took tanking to
acquire those players. They had a massive trade for Shake
Gildess Alexander like Shakes as Alexander was drafted by the Clippers.
And then what pushed them over the top a couple
of late acquisitions in the form of Isaiah Hartenstein, who
was like like felt like a New York Nick personified,
and Alex Caruso. Again a combination of homegrown talent and
(27:24):
dudes who were acquired that kind of bolstered them and
pushed them over the top. The Boston Celtics, yeah, Jalen
Brown and Jason Tatum been there for a long time.
Al Horford very much felt like a Celtic, Derek White
at that point had been there for a few years
felt like a Celtic. But Drew Holliday and Chris hops
porzingis for last minute editions that pushed them over the top.
(27:46):
You can go on and on through NBA history. It's
like Aaron Gordon was the guy who pushed the Denver
Nuggets over the top.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
It's it's always.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Like a mix between existing talent that has been there
for a while and dudes that come in and push
them over the top and if you end up winning
a title as the Philadelphia seventy six ers and Joel
Embiid gets traded, but Tyrese Maxie is there, and VJ.
Edgecomb is a homegrown talent, and Dominic Barlow was there
(28:18):
before this, Justin Edwards was there before this. If Tyrese
Maxie wins finals MVP, which it would certainly be a possibility,
I don't think it's gonna feel like just a bunch
of mercenaries. I think it's gonna feel like any other champion.
You've got a group of guys who were homegrown who
are part of that team, and then you've got an
influx of talent at the end that pushed you over
(28:39):
the top. So like, I think this in other words,
like where I disagree with Spike is like this kind
of this fantasy land where there's this perfect group of
just only homegrown guys that everyone seems to like and
that you end up with the trophy at the end
of the line. So like again, again, that's that's my
take on it. And my whole thing is I don't
(29:02):
think we like do I agree with Spike? No. I
know most of you guys disagree with him, but he's
a nice dude. You just an opinion you disagreed with,
And I think it's kind of ridiculous for us all
decide to decide that we just like dislike a person
because of a sports take. That just seems that's a
bridge too far from me. You're not gonna get me
on board with that. Number five. Last one for the day,
(29:23):
This Warriors report that they pass on Jalen Brown is ridiculous.
So essentially, the report that came out was that the
Warriors essentially were offered by the Celtics to get Jalen
Brown in exchange for four first round picks, and essentially
the Warriors were like, we don't think Jalen Brown's good
enough to carry us in the post Steph Courre era,
(29:45):
so we're going to pass on Jalen Brown. This is
an absolutely perfect example of the absurdity of the Warriors
approach to team building in recent years. So your foundation
is you've got this player and Steph curR who is
in his late prime. For sure, is he a perennial
MVP candidate anymore?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Is he a top tier superstar in the league anymore? No,
But he's still one of the most impactful offensive players
in the league. You just you put him on the floor,
you got a one twenty offensive rating. We've been talking
about that for years, even at his old age, and
he had the upside on nights where he had his
legs underneath him, where he could still reach the level
of the top tier superstars in the NBA. In other words,
a guy that gives you a legitimate chance to compete
(30:26):
in the in the modern NBA landscape, and the Warriors
have just been constantly waiting for the perfect guy to
pounce on when the time comes. In this case, it
was Joannis Santana. Kumpo was the guy they really wanted,
and as a result, they've passed on great in pursuit
of perfect They passed on Ojananobi, they passed on Pascal Siakam,
(30:48):
they passed on on Jalen Brown, they passed on all
these dudes. They passed on Anthony Davis, they passed on
Trey Murphy, whoever it might be.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
And the one guy that make a move on.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Is a super distressed asset in Jimmy Butler, right, and
they've moved i think one first round picking that deal. Right,
So like they have been super hesitant to push assets
in the middle to improve the team. Where I think
of this as a where this is a fallacy is
the simple fact that you're not paying four first round
(31:20):
picks for Jalen Brown and then Jalen Brown ceases to
carry any value.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
That's not how this works.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
You could make a move for Jalen Brown potentially give
yourself a better chance at Lebron.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I'll go step further.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
I think if Jylen Brown was on the Golden State Warriors,
that Lebron James would now be a Golden State Warrior.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Lebron would be looking at and he'd be like, man,
Steph Curry, d'.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Anthony Melton, Jylen Brown, I got Al Horford and Chris
Hops Porzingis and Draymond Green. I've got those forwards, you know,
Gie Santos and Man, We've got We've got some talent
over there. I'm close to home. I get to play
with a bunch of guys that I really like. Lebron
would be a Warrior now. So you could have paid
for a first round picks, got Jalen Brown, got Lebron James,
(32:14):
competed for a title for a couple of years, and
then guess why you trade Jalen Brown, if you don't
think he's the guy to lead you into the next
era again, unless you are literally trading picks for a
mid thirties role player, like Yeah, if you made a
move for Dorian Finney Smith with draft compensation, you're gonna
(32:36):
have a hard time recouping those assets. If you make
a move right now for like Andrew Wiggins and you
keep him for a couple of years, I don't think
you're gonna be able to recoup as much. But a
guy like Jalen Brown is almost certainly going to be
movable for some kind of value a year or two
(32:58):
from now. And there's this idea that your only currency
as a rebuilding team is draft picks. That's not the case.
Every single thing is an asset in some way, shape
or form. Every contract, A discounted role player that you like,
gis aanto's is an asset. He's worth something to somebody
because he makes almost nothing and he's a pretty solid
(33:19):
basketball player. High level role players are an asset. Look
at the Wolves might have been able to get into
the Yannis sweepstakes with Jaden McDaniels, a high level role player.
Everybody is an asset in one shape of in some way,
shape or form in some amount of value Jaylen Brown.
Even though you lose four draft picks, you get Jalen Brown,
(33:41):
a player that you can turn around in trade if
you need to at some point in the future. That's
where I disagreed with all this passing on Jalen Like, okay,
we you don't think Anthony Davis is worth it? Okay, fine,
First of all, you've been a lot cheaper than Jaylen Brown.
But let's say you're saying Trey Murphy's the guy, then
Trey Murphy will be a to be moved for something
(34:03):
You could have gotten Trey Murphy giving yourself a better
chance to compete with Steph a better chance to get
Lebron James. And you could have still turned around and
moved him in a year or two and gotten value
for him. And again, guys like, let's dig into it.
You actually did have high draft picks, multiple cracks at
(34:24):
the lottery, multiple top ten picks, a number two overall pick,
and you got nothing out of it. Nothing Wiseman, total
bust kaminga. You ended up trading him for the rundown
Chris soops porzingis that you got back so like your
(34:49):
perceived value in these draft picks, this mystery box of
which you've shown no ability to convert into foundational talent anyway,
has been the barrier between you getting found national talent,
giving yourself a better chance at Lebron James. When I
read that report, I'm like, Oh, this is where they
(35:11):
don't get it. This is where they don't get it.
Incremental progress makes you a better basketball team, a better roster,
has more tradable assets beyond the draft. It's diversifying your assets,
that's all it is. Because now let's slick at what
(35:32):
you got. You've got a bunch of draft picks, and
the only player on your team that anybody really would
be willing to move a lot of assets for is
Steph Curry, who you're not gonna trade. He's gonna retire
a Warrior. Moving picks for good players would have just
given you a different type of asset, but it also
would have made you more appealing to the likes of
(35:55):
Lebron James, and you could be in a very different
position today. The Warriors have consistently passed on great in
pursuit of perfect and they found themselves with a shit
roster and nowhere to go.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
I was just really frustrated when I read that report.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
All right, guys, That's all I have for today is
always sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting
the show again. We will be back Wednesday with our
first episode of our player ranking series.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
I will see you guys then
The Volume. All right, welcome to him tonight here at
the Volume Heavy Monday, everybody. I hope all of you
guys had an incredible weekend. Got a jampack show for
(00:22):
you guys today. I have five big takeaways from the weekend.
I want to talk a little bit about the Game
Over podcast with Rich Paul and Max Kellerman, some of
the things they said, some of the fallout of some
of the ways that they behave on that show. We're
going to talk about that debate about Tony Allen versus
Lebron James on defense, which I thought was fascinating. I
have some follow up on our Spike Skin pod. And
(00:42):
then at the tail end of the show, I want
to talk about the report that the Golden State Warriors
passed on Jalen Brown or we're just kind of generally
uninterested in him. To be clear, just real quick about
our schedule this week. We're doing this stuff today, the
kind of five takeaways from the weekend. We are starting
player rankings officially on Wednesday. We're going to do our
kind of rules, kind of go over how the list works,
(01:03):
and then I have seven players that we're going to
hit that we're like honorable mention on Wednesday, and then
Friday will be the first chunk of players on the
list number twenty five, twenty four, and twenty three.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So the player.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Rankings are starting this week, starting on Wednesday. You guys
are the two before we started. Subscribe to Hoops and
not YouTube channels. You don't miss any more of our videos.
We still have a goal to get to one hundred
and fifty thousand subs. I got about seven thousand more
to go, and you guys can help us a lot
just by scrolling down and hitting that subscribe button. If
you're already subscribed like this video, sign up for post notifications.
(01:36):
That helps us a lot. And then no mailbag this week.
But the way the mailbags are going to work, we're
gonna have mailbags kind of centered around the player rankings
list starting a week from this Friday. I obviously want
to get some players out there, so you guys have
some mailbag questions to ask. But our mailbags are very
much going to be a debate about the player rankings,
so I want you guys to come prepared with arguments
(01:58):
for why you guys disagree with the players are rank
will start a week from Friday, all right, let's talk
some basketball. So our first big takeaway from the weekend.
Rich Paul is free to podcast about whatever he wants,
but let's not pretend like there aren't consequences for the
things you say on that type of forum. It's you
(02:18):
know again. We could argue about whether or not it
should have had a big impact on Lebron James leaving
the Lakers in the fracturing of his relationship there, but
it certainly was part of that deterioration. Lebron's so good
at basketball that the Lakers should have kept him, just
like the Sixers shouldn't be concerned about whether or not
it's worth it to have Lebron James. But it was
(02:39):
part of that deterioration. The relationship that Rich Paul has
with Lebron James makes this sort of thing complicated. Take
some of the specific things we've heard from Rich, like
him talking about how this could all be good for vj.
Edgecomb as long as he accepts a smaller role in
(03:00):
a winning context, or the stuff about Lebron being basically
like a media shield for Jalen Brown. Now, if guys
like me or anybody else in the media, or any
fan for that matter, if you guys make those assertions,
it's basically just analysis of a situation, and I don't
even necessarily disagree with anything there.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Like I do think that VJ.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Edgecumb learning how to play a smaller role in a
winning context could actually help him in the long run
of his career. I do think that having Lebron around
will help with managing the media circus surrounding the team.
But if Rich Paul says it, it feels more direct.
It's Lebron's agent thinks VJ. Edgecomb should take a back seat.
(03:43):
Lebron's agent thinks Austin Reeves is overpaid. Lebron's agent thinks
Austin Reeves should be traded. Lebron's agent thinks, even though
Jaylen Brown will be thirty years old at the start
of next season, that he somehow needs help handling media circus.
And again I don't even necessarily disagree, Like Jalen Brown's
behavior with the media has been kind of weird over
(04:05):
the last year and mismanaged a little bit, but it's
just different and it feels more direct when it comes
from Lebron's agent. The bottom line is the seventy six
Ers are gonna be a circus next year. No matter
how things go, the Star powers off the charts, the
storylines are riveting, they have legitimate championship expectations, and there
are a half dozen ways it could go horribly wrong
(04:28):
that the media will be prepared to pounce on. I
mean we saw that firsthand in Lebron's free agency, the
way that the whiteboard and some of the comments that
were made kind of caused massive waves.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
In NBA media.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
This is like, this team is going to have enough
to deal with without Lebron's agent kicking up dust every
week with this pot Again, I'm not saying that Rich
shouldn't have a podcast. I'm just saying, like, there are
consequences to the things we say. It's that classic reality, right,
like we all have freedom of speech, but we don't
(05:04):
have freedom from consequences, and that could get super serious
right on the high end legal. I thought it was
super funny the other day when Trump did his latest
election fraud speech and even Fox News was like, we're
not talking about it, and they just ignored it and
moved on. You know why, because they lost their ass
in a lawsuit when they inappropriately piggybacked on that whole
(05:27):
election lie back in twenty twenty with the dominion voting machines,
like they fucked around and found out that there are
consequences to the things that you say when you go
lie on television or say things on television. But even
on the low end, if you have a platform and
you say things about other people, there are potentially consequences
(05:48):
with the way that people will respond to the things
that you say. Say that, like Max Kellerman pitches the
idea of a VJ Edgecombe trade a month into the
season because Vja's struggling, kind of like he already did
with em Beat, which we're gonna hit later on in
the show. If Rich doesn't handle it deftly, it could
be all over ESPN, all over FS ONE, all over
(06:10):
Twitter for a few days. And if you don't think
that that could have an impact on a twenty one
year old kid who's struggling with a small role, I
don't know what to tell you. Frankly, to me, it
feels kind of a bit unnecessary right now considering how
successful Rich is, you know, separate from this media universe.
And I'd argue, like even just waiting until Lebron retires
(06:32):
because of just how big of a media machine Lebron is.
Even just waiting until Lebron retires could go a long
way to making this a more like feasible venture for
him that doesn't have like trickle down impacts with the
way that things are said. There's just a lot of
pressure if the way this team is covered is going
to involve a popular podcast where every storyline of the
(06:55):
season is going to be discussed. And you have Max Kellerman,
who very much plays the meati. He's a hot take
guy personified. I want a godala right, like to have
that guy asking Rich Paul questions every single week surrounding
the team has the potential to be a distraction. That
is just a fact. Number two, Max Kellerman. As we're
(07:19):
sticking on the game over Pod here for a second,
Max Kellerman on the Game over Pod pitched the idea
of trading Joel Embiid. I personally think it's way too
early to consider moving a player of Joel's caliber, So
I understand the general idea here, right, You've got a
player that is on a massive salary that is kind
(07:43):
of the odd man out of this group in some ways.
You know, Lebron transition athlete Jaylen Brown, transition athlete Tyres
maxivj Edgecomb. They're just super fast, right, and Joel Embiid
is slow, and he's reached this phase of his career
where he's still very good offensively when he's health but
on defense there's major question marks if he has to
venture anywhere away from the rim, and there's just general
(08:06):
health question marks, right. And so I'm not opposed to
the idea of potentially trading Joel Embiid if the situation
calls for it. I just think it's way too early
because there's enough upside there that it's worth exploring. So
I've talked about this idea before. But when I look
at like what happened to Jalen Brown, specifically in that
(08:30):
first round series where he started to struggle because Joel
Embiid was trolling the paint and turning Jalen into just
a mid range player, right, Not that Jalen Brown can't
do that, but it just took away one of the
most impactful parts of his game, the ability to get
all the way to the basket. Right now, Joel Embiid
is a counter to that very situation. On the other
(08:51):
end of the floor, his ability to reliably knock down,
catch and shoot three spaces the floor and creates opportunity
to get to the basket more easily. I think about
Jaylen Brown, and I think about Lebron James, who, by
the way, he has been playing without spacing fives for
this entire last third of his career. I think about
Tyrese Maxi, one of the fastest players in the NBA,
(09:12):
and I think about all the upside if you have
a five man and Joel Embiid that can consistently pull
that guy away from the basket, and there is no oh,
we're gonna guard him with a ford, Joel will bury
that dude under the basket. There's no hiding your center
on a non shooter. That center's gotta guard Joel Embiid,
or you're just throwing the ball to him in the
post and he's doing what he did to the Celtics
(09:34):
in the first round. Even if you have a center,
if he's not the right kind of center, Joel's gonna
annihilate that dude. There is so much offensive upside that
I think it is at the very least worthwhile to
go into the season with Joel Embiid and just see
how it looks now, if you get a couple months
into the season and it's abundantly clear that the styles clash,
(09:54):
Joel struggles to play on offense with all the ball handling,
Joel's footspeed ends up being a major is you with
their transition game or with what they're doing on defense.
If it just looks obvious that the best version of
the team involves the four other guys and Joel sticks
out like a sore thumb, by all means, consider trading
him at that point injuries. If Joel goes down with
(10:15):
some sort of neat thing and it's like, Okay, well
we need to attach a pick to his contract in
order to multiple picks to his contract in order to
try to bring back useful players. I understand that, but
at the very least you got to go into the
season with Joel.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
To explore that upside.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Joel and b when he's healthy, is just simply one
of the very best offensive players in the NBA, and
his unique ability to space out rim protection could cause
all sorts of problems for defenses. Again, if you look
at the clunkiness of this group, you know a lot
of people will think, oh, Lebron James Jylen Brown vj
edgecomb this kind of Miami heat esque like Heatles ESK
(10:57):
where maybe Lebron and d Wade or just slashers that
don't play off of each other super well and if
they can't space the floor, that can cause problems. Right,
But what happened when they moved Chris Bosh to the five.
When they moved Chris Bosh to the five in the
later years of the Heatles and they started spacing out centers,
(11:18):
all of a sudden, Lebron James and Dwayne Wade were
just feasting at the rim.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That's the thing.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Like this, this whole thing could be clunky, but if
you get a spacing five out there, it could make
it just work in a way that's devastating. So again,
I think you got to explore keeping Joel and beat
on the team, at least in the short term. Number
three Tony Allen had this long, you know take about
(11:45):
how Lebron James was. Oh, he had a lot of stuff,
says he was targeted on defense, which again I don't
I don't remember Lebron James ever really being targeted on
defense until like last year when he's just older and
slower and some of the quicker players can go go
around him. But players certainly scored on Lebron James in
his career, but it was never like, oh, we're picking
(12:06):
on Lebron James. It was like, oh, it was a
late clock situation I happened to be going against him,
or a random possession here or there. No one was
targeting Lebron James for the vast majority of his career.
He said that he kind of like simplified his overall
defensive impact down to just chase down blocks. He used
the word overrated. He said that he avoided guarding primary options,
and it kind of sparked this debate about the difference
(12:28):
between a guy like Tony Allen on defense and a
guy like Lebron James on defense. I think this is
really complicated. I've always had a hard time lumping in
star level defenders with role player defenders just because of
the reality of the job. Right Like I when I
was in college at Arizona Christian my last year, I
(12:53):
came in as a scoring type of dude. I was
an All Conference player of the previous year and JUCO
had a bunch of big scoring games. But I went
onto a team that had two All American guards, and
they didn't want me with the ball ever, And it
was perfectly fine under the circumstances of that team. We
had much better offensive players than me. You should not
have given me the ball. But it allowed me to
(13:14):
become like this just defender. I just guarded the other
team's best player every single night, and I rebounded and
I defended. I'd occasionally take an open catch and shoot three,
do a handful of things here or there. But the
other guys handled the offense and I guarded the other
team's best player.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
That was my job.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And what it did is it allowed me to kind
of just devote all my energy in that direction. As
I've gotten older and a lot more skilled offensively, and
I'm playing in men's leagues and I'm playing in pickup
runs and private runs and stuff like that, I have
a lot more offensive responsibility. And guess what, it's not
as easy for me to guard the other team's best
player with the same level of.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Energy that I usually do.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
But then I'll play, you know, with a particular pickup
run where I've got good ball handlers on the team,
or I'll play in a pro am here in Denver
and I'll be on a team with a lot more talent,
and all of a sudden, it's like I can devote
on my energy to defense, and it's almost like for me,
it's like going back in time to what it was
like when I was at Arizona Christian where that was
all I did, and all of a sudden, I have
(14:14):
like this tons of energy and focus for that specific job.
The reality is is that, like when you're talking about
a Tony Allen in the NBA, his job is fundamentally
different than a Jalen Brown or a Lebron James, right,
and like, for instance, the idea of him guarding primary options,
(14:35):
it would be stupid to deploy Lebron James as a
primary perimeter defensive option from the opening tip of every
single game. All it would cause is him to not
do is good of a job because he doesn't have
the energy for it, or to do too good of
a job and have it have an impact on the
energy reserves. He has to be good on the offensive
(14:57):
end of the floor. Lebron was always capable of that
sort of thing. It was just something that they only
deployed in high leverage situations. Okay, it's the end of
the Eastern Conference Finals in twenty eleven. Let's have Lebron
James guard Derreck Rose. Okay, it's the gold the semi
final game in the Olympics. Let's have Lebron James gard
(15:18):
Nikola Jokic for the entire fourth quarter. Okay, it's the
twenty twenty Western Conference Finals. And the Jamal Murray Nicole
Jokic pick and roll is causing problems. We want to
be able to switch it. So let's put Lebron James
on Jamal Murray and Anthony Davis on Nikola Jokic, and
let's switch. And we're gonna just use Lebron as the
guy who can both guard Jamal Murray and switch on
(15:40):
to Nikola Jokic.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
And he's good.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
But they only did that at like, what was it
the final few minutes of Game four of that series,
if I remember correctly. So it's like, at the end
of the day, Lebron has always been capable of that
sort of thing. They've just been his coaching stabs and
his teams have been like kind of selective about when
they want to use him in that specific.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Way as a product of his energy reserves.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Now, does that mean he was as good at guarding
perimeter players as Tony Allen. No like. Talk to anybody
who's played in the Tony Allen era and they'll tell
you he was one of the best, if not the best,
perimeter defenders in the league.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I know.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Kevin Durant has personally said that Tony Allen was the
guy that gave him the most issues. But again, that
was the one thing that he did and it was
why he was in the NBA. He was a professional
perimeter defender. Today's show is brought to you by a
presenting sponsor, Hard Rock Bets Sportsbook. Some sports fans call
this slow period until football season, but Hard Rock Bet
(16:39):
we call it baseball season. In this summer, hard Rock
Bet has the hottest betting odds in Florida, introducing ten
cents summer sale, big juice fee, whatever you call it.
We're cutting our cut on winners, spreads and over under
pregame baseball bets, same bets, betterands. If you're ready to
step into the batters box, sign up with hard Rock
(17:01):
Bet today and place a five dollars bet. If it wins,
you get one hundred and fifty dollars in bonus bets
on top of your winnings. That's right, an extra one
hundred and fifty dollars in your account and sure, hard
Rock Bet is Florida's only legal sports book. But if
you don't, you don't have to be in Florida to
join the party. Hard Rock Bet is also live in Arizona, Ohio,
New Jersey, Indiana, Tennessee, Virginia, Illinois, Colorado, and Michigan, with
(17:23):
more states on the way. So grab your bat and
swing for the fences all August long during hard Rock
Bets ten cent Summer Sale. Download the hard Rock Bet
app today and roll with us payble and bonus bets
not a cash offer offered by the Seminole Tribe of
Florida and Florida offered by Seminal hard Rock Digital, LLC
and all other states. Valid for money lines spread and
over under pregame markets with odds between minus two to
(17:44):
fifty and plus two to fifty only. Must be twenty
one plus and physically president in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan,
New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee or Virginia to play. Terms and
conditions apply. Concerned about gambling in Florida called one eight
three to three play wise in Indiana view or someone
you know has a gambling problem and wants help, call
one eight hundred and nine with it in Arizona, Ohio
(18:05):
and Virginia called one eight hundred my reset gambling problem,
called one hundred gambler in Colorado, Illinois, Michigan, New Jersey,
or Tennessee. So again, like I I think, like even
just the baseline under which we're having this discussion that
Tony Allen's trying to have is flawed because we're talking
(18:27):
about a role player perimeter defender, Excuse me, a role
player perimeter defender versus a guy who has a whole
lot more responsibility on the floor. Now, let's dig a
little bit further into this, because I do think it's fascinating.
I do think that when we talk about, you know,
best defenders in the league, best defenders of all time,
(18:47):
we tend to kind of like focus on specific types
of guys. And I think there's a way to have
that conversation as a as a a when we talk
about team building. So, what is the most valuable type
of defender? To me, the most valuable type of defender
is still to this day, a center, that is versatile,
(19:10):
meaning a guy who can protect the rim, but that
isn't so slow that he can be picked on by speed.
This is why we look at the Victor wembin Yama's,
the Chet Holmgrens, the bam Ata bios, the Anthony Davis
when he was healthy, the Rudy Gobars. They are still
the most valuable defensive players in the league. Why because
in any sort of help side situation, they shut off
(19:32):
the rim and they give you a much more of
a fighting chance and pick and roll. If he can
get up to the level and get back in dynamic
drop coverages, and if he can get up to the
level and switch in circumstances where a guard is really
cooking and you need them to shut that water off,
that is still the most valuable type of defender. From there,
(19:54):
the second most valuable type of defender to me is
the Swiss army knife, the guy that can do a
lot really well. Now does that mean that Lebron James
did that stuff every minute of every game for all
eighty two for his entire career. No, but I do
think he slots into that group, which is like, can
(20:15):
he guard multiple positions on the perimeter Can he also
guard bullyball post up players. Can he also be effective
as a secondary rim protector Lebron James blocking Thiago Splitter
at the rim, Lebron James blocking Tim Duncan at the
rim in low man rotations in the mid twenty tens,
(20:37):
there can you be a all of those things? Secondary
rim protector, defensive rebounding talent guard power forwards and post
up centers switching on to point guards. That to me
is the second most valuable type of defender in the league.
(20:59):
Then the the third most valuable type of defender to
me in the league is that I put this guy
on the other team's best player and he makes life
hell for him for forty eight minutes.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That is a very valuable archetype.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And I would argue Tony Allen was definitely better at that.
Then Lebron was at his job simply because of the
fact that Lebron had other responsibilities on the floor. But
when you got into any big game. Another way for
me to frame this is, there were five minutes left
in Game seven of the NBA Finals. Who do I
(21:35):
think is a better defensive player, a more valuable defensive player,
Lebron James or Tony Allen, I think it's Lebron James,
and I think in many ways he's become underrated in
that specific way. Over the course of his career. He
never got the Defensive Player of the Year award. You know,
he hasn't made an All Defense team since what twenty
fourteen or twenty thirteen, and you know, definitely towards the
(21:59):
tail end of his career he let go of the
rope in the regular season. But still, even even at
this age, even at forty two, like Lebron did that
job on Nikola Jokic as a forty year old man.
Like that, that type of versatility I think is highly underrated.
Did he guard the other team's best player for forty
(22:20):
eight minutes every single night? No?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Did he play super hard all the time? No?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
But Lebron to me fits into that like second tier
of defender, that like versatile dud does everything well defender,
and I think in many ways that's actually more valuable
to constructing a defense than just the guy who can
guard the other.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Team's best player.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
And none of them are gonna be as good as
a Victor or a Chet or a Bam or Anthony
Davis or Rudy Gobert because still to this day a
dynamic rim protector that can also move his feet on
the perimeters, the most valuable defensive player in the world.
Number four had some follow up on the Spike Eskin interview,
(23:03):
and there's two main things that I want to hit here.
First of all, a lot of people were very critical
of me for having him on the show and just
critical of Spike in general. And I don't want to
go too long on this, but just very simply here's
how I feel. One, I wanted to have someone on
the show that was more pessimistic about the team. That
was intentional. You guys know, I'm super high on the
(23:26):
potential that this group has. We had done a lot
of seventy six Ers coverage in the week prior where
we focused on a lot of upside and I wanted
to bring in somebody that had more of a negative
opinion so that we can unpack that a little bit,
and we did. We did that on the show, So
that was intentional. It wasn't like I'm looking for someone
(23:46):
who's negative on the team for any reason other than
to just provide an alternative perspective. Secondly, he like legitimately,
I've met Spike before I met him in Vegas. He's
super nice guy, and this is something I would I again,
this is just my opinion, and I understand like people
feel the way they feel the same reason that you know,
some people look at Lebron James and just can't stand
(24:08):
the guy. Like, I understand that people feel that. I
know there's people that feel the way about me. Just
look at my comments every single show, right, So, like, like,
I'm not trying to tell people how to feel, but
I personally think it's ridiculous to decide you hate a
person because of a sports take. Like do you think
(24:28):
Spike made some sort of weird intentional effort to dislike
Lebron or do you think it's an authentic feeling that
comes from him. It's obviously an authentic feeling. He didn't
liked the guy. I disagree. I disagreed with a lot
of the stuff he said on the show. I know
you guys disagree with him too. That doesn't make him
a bad guy. He's a good dude. Met him before,
(24:49):
when I met him, he was a good dude. He
came on and he provided an alternative perspective, and I
don't think there's anything wrong with that. I do want
to talk a little bit about his take about winning
with excuse me, the idea of how he'd rather lose
without Lebron than win with it. I think there's a
specific point that he made that I want to unpack
(25:10):
a little bit more, and it's the idea of like, oh,
this is just a bunch of mercenaries winning seven or
wearing seventy six ers jerseys. And the point that he
was making was basically like, if we end up trading
Joel Embiid or trading vj Edgecomb and we end up
winning with this like kind of random group of guys,
He's like, yeah, maybe Maxie will still be there, But like,
how is that what is that really going to feel like?
(25:32):
That's like, how is that going to resonate if it's
just like a bunch of different guys. And where I
pushed back on that is like, if you dig back
through NBA history, every single champion tends to be a
combination of homegrown talent and mercenary talent. They all are
(25:54):
just dig back through it, right, like the Knicks, there
are guys that have been there forever, right, Jalen Brunson's
been there for a long time, you know, Josh Hart's
been there for a long time. Obviously, Ojannoby's been there
a little bit longer. But like mckal Bridges and Mitter
Robinson was there for a long time, but like mckail
Bridges and Karl Anthony Towns were like just big acquisitions
(26:18):
a little over a year and a half ago, you know,
and like in that summer before the twenty twenty five campaign, right, so,
like you dig into it and it's it's like it's
a group of guys that were Nicks for a while
with you know, an addition in the form of Jalen Brunson,
which followed with an addition of og Anobi, with an
(26:40):
addition of Karl Anthony Towns and McHale Bridges. It's not
like just some group of homegrown, home drafted talent. It's
kind of like a combination of dudes who have been
there for a while, some longer than others, and then
some last minute editions that push them over the top.
Look at the thunder same exact sort of thing. Yeah,
there's some homegrown talent there in guys like homegrown in
(27:00):
Jalen Williams, but there's also like it took tanking to
acquire those players. They had a massive trade for Shake
Gildess Alexander like Shakes as Alexander was drafted by the Clippers.
And then what pushed them over the top a couple
of late acquisitions in the form of Isaiah Hartenstein, who
was like like felt like a New York Nick personified,
and Alex Caruso. Again a combination of homegrown talent and
(27:24):
dudes who were acquired that kind of bolstered them and
pushed them over the top. The Boston Celtics, yeah, Jalen
Brown and Jason Tatum been there for a long time.
Al Horford very much felt like a Celtic, Derek White
at that point had been there for a few years
felt like a Celtic. But Drew Holliday and Chris hops
porzingis for last minute editions that pushed them over the top.
(27:46):
You can go on and on through NBA history. It's
like Aaron Gordon was the guy who pushed the Denver
Nuggets over the top.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
It's it's always.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Like a mix between existing talent that has been there
for a while and dudes that come in and push
them over the top and if you end up winning
a title as the Philadelphia seventy six ers and Joel
Embiid gets traded, but Tyrese Maxie is there, and VJ.
Edgecomb is a homegrown talent, and Dominic Barlow was there
(28:18):
before this, Justin Edwards was there before this. If Tyrese
Maxie wins finals MVP, which it would certainly be a possibility,
I don't think it's gonna feel like just a bunch
of mercenaries. I think it's gonna feel like any other champion.
You've got a group of guys who were homegrown who
are part of that team, and then you've got an
influx of talent at the end that pushed you over
(28:39):
the top. So like, I think this in other words,
like where I disagree with Spike is like this kind
of this fantasy land where there's this perfect group of
just only homegrown guys that everyone seems to like and
that you end up with the trophy at the end
of the line. So like again, again, that's that's my
take on it. And my whole thing is I don't
(29:02):
think we like do I agree with Spike? No. I
know most of you guys disagree with him, but he's
a nice dude. You just an opinion you disagreed with,
And I think it's kind of ridiculous for us all
decide to decide that we just like dislike a person
because of a sports take. That just seems that's a
bridge too far from me. You're not gonna get me
on board with that. Number five. Last one for the day,
(29:23):
This Warriors report that they pass on Jalen Brown is ridiculous.
So essentially, the report that came out was that the
Warriors essentially were offered by the Celtics to get Jalen
Brown in exchange for four first round picks, and essentially
the Warriors were like, we don't think Jalen Brown's good
enough to carry us in the post Steph Courre era,
(29:45):
so we're going to pass on Jalen Brown. This is
an absolutely perfect example of the absurdity of the Warriors
approach to team building in recent years. So your foundation
is you've got this player and Steph curR who is
in his late prime. For sure, is he a perennial
MVP candidate anymore?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Is he a top tier superstar in the league anymore? No,
But he's still one of the most impactful offensive players
in the league. You just you put him on the floor,
you got a one twenty offensive rating. We've been talking
about that for years, even at his old age, and
he had the upside on nights where he had his
legs underneath him, where he could still reach the level
of the top tier superstars in the NBA. In other words,
a guy that gives you a legitimate chance to compete
(30:26):
in the in the modern NBA landscape, and the Warriors
have just been constantly waiting for the perfect guy to
pounce on when the time comes. In this case, it
was Joannis Santana. Kumpo was the guy they really wanted,
and as a result, they've passed on great in pursuit
of perfect They passed on Ojananobi, they passed on Pascal Siakam,
(30:48):
they passed on on Jalen Brown, they passed on all
these dudes. They passed on Anthony Davis, they passed on
Trey Murphy, whoever it might be.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
And the one guy that make a move on.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Is a super distressed asset in Jimmy Butler, right, and
they've moved i think one first round picking that deal. Right,
So like they have been super hesitant to push assets
in the middle to improve the team. Where I think
of this as a where this is a fallacy is
the simple fact that you're not paying four first round
(31:20):
picks for Jalen Brown and then Jalen Brown ceases to
carry any value.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
That's not how this works.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
You could make a move for Jalen Brown potentially give
yourself a better chance at Lebron.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I'll go step further.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
I think if Jylen Brown was on the Golden State Warriors,
that Lebron James would now be a Golden State Warrior.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Lebron would be looking at and he'd be like, man,
Steph Curry, d'.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Anthony Melton, Jylen Brown, I got Al Horford and Chris
Hops Porzingis and Draymond Green. I've got those forwards, you know,
Gie Santos and Man, We've got We've got some talent
over there. I'm close to home. I get to play
with a bunch of guys that I really like. Lebron
would be a Warrior now. So you could have paid
for a first round picks, got Jalen Brown, got Lebron James,
(32:14):
competed for a title for a couple of years, and
then guess why you trade Jalen Brown, if you don't
think he's the guy to lead you into the next
era again, unless you are literally trading picks for a
mid thirties role player, like Yeah, if you made a
move for Dorian Finney Smith with draft compensation, you're gonna
(32:36):
have a hard time recouping those assets. If you make
a move right now for like Andrew Wiggins and you
keep him for a couple of years, I don't think
you're gonna be able to recoup as much. But a
guy like Jalen Brown is almost certainly going to be
movable for some kind of value a year or two
(32:58):
from now. And there's this idea that your only currency
as a rebuilding team is draft picks. That's not the case.
Every single thing is an asset in some way, shape
or form. Every contract, A discounted role player that you like,
gis aanto's is an asset. He's worth something to somebody
because he makes almost nothing and he's a pretty solid
(33:19):
basketball player. High level role players are an asset. Look
at the Wolves might have been able to get into
the Yannis sweepstakes with Jaden McDaniels, a high level role player.
Everybody is an asset in one shape of in some way,
shape or form in some amount of value Jaylen Brown.
Even though you lose four draft picks, you get Jalen Brown,
(33:41):
a player that you can turn around in trade if
you need to at some point in the future. That's
where I disagreed with all this passing on Jalen Like, okay,
we you don't think Anthony Davis is worth it? Okay, fine,
First of all, you've been a lot cheaper than Jaylen Brown.
But let's say you're saying Trey Murphy's the guy, then
Trey Murphy will be a to be moved for something
(34:03):
You could have gotten Trey Murphy giving yourself a better
chance to compete with Steph a better chance to get
Lebron James. And you could have still turned around and
moved him in a year or two and gotten value
for him. And again, guys like, let's dig into it.
You actually did have high draft picks, multiple cracks at
(34:24):
the lottery, multiple top ten picks, a number two overall pick,
and you got nothing out of it. Nothing Wiseman, total
bust kaminga. You ended up trading him for the rundown
Chris soops porzingis that you got back so like your
(34:49):
perceived value in these draft picks, this mystery box of
which you've shown no ability to convert into foundational talent anyway,
has been the barrier between you getting found national talent,
giving yourself a better chance at Lebron James. When I
read that report, I'm like, Oh, this is where they
(35:11):
don't get it. This is where they don't get it.
Incremental progress makes you a better basketball team, a better roster,
has more tradable assets beyond the draft. It's diversifying your assets,
that's all it is. Because now let's slick at what
(35:32):
you got. You've got a bunch of draft picks, and
the only player on your team that anybody really would
be willing to move a lot of assets for is
Steph Curry, who you're not gonna trade. He's gonna retire
a Warrior. Moving picks for good players would have just
given you a different type of asset, but it also
would have made you more appealing to the likes of
(35:55):
Lebron James, and you could be in a very different
position today. The Warriors have consistently passed on great in
pursuit of perfect and they found themselves with a shit
roster and nowhere to go.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
I was just really frustrated when I read that report.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
All right, guys, That's all I have for today is
always sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting
the show again. We will be back Wednesday with our
first episode of our player ranking series.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
I will see you guys then
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com