March 5, 2026 • 44 mins
Larry Bird has one of the most unlikely paths to superstardom in the history of the National Basketball Association. On today's episode, New York Times best-selling author Keith O'Brien explains just how preposterous Bird's rise was. From southern Indiana nobody to legendary basketball icon, O'Brien lays it all out in his freshly-released book HEARTLAND: A FORGOTTEN PLACE, AN IMPOSSIBLE DREAM, AND THE MIRACLE OF LARRY BIRD.
Fellow best-selling author Chad Millman and professional gambler Simon Hunter ask O'Brien about the adventures he took to write his latest book, building trust with Larry Bird's inner circle as he familiarized himself with the tiny community of French Lick, Indiana firsthand. We also hear about Bird's wild journey from blue blood Indiana University to also-ran Indiana State, and the serendipitous events that led to his fabled 1979 NCAA Finals matchup against Magic Johnson and eventual NBA arrival with the Boston Celtics. #Volume
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Sharper Square, presented by hard Rock Vet. We
are part of the Volume podcast Network. This is the
show that makes the squares sharper and makes the wise
guys pay attention all year long.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I am Chad Norman.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I am joined as always, buy my bff, my companion,
my compadre, my co host, professional better Simon Hunter. Hello, Simon, Chad.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
It's always fun hearing from uh, just new fans in general,
especially ones that who just joined this year so they
really haven't heard our after football type of shows.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
The feedback is always hilarious from different people. Obviously, you know,
some people love us, some people hate us. The biggest
one was, is this Chad for the whole offseason? And
I said to people, I don't know if Chad's always
going to have such great stories like that, right, Like
that was you had to build up of really good stories.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
You had to get them all out on one show.
But yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Said, Chad, Dad's gonna talk about Chad and tell some stories,
and they all, that's what we're doing here, people, But yeah,
I thought that was very funny from hearing from a
lot of people where they're like, yeah, during the season,
I get it. It's like you guys are just doing
quick stories and stuff. But Chad was really really on
one last last show, and I was like, Yeah, that's
that's all season, Chad.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
That is so funny.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I can't tell is this Chad for the whole off season?
Is that like, oh my god, he's insufferable or oh
my god, he's living some crazy life.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
And I can't believe we get.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
To hear these stories, like what exactly is the is
the context for oh my god?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Is this Chad off season?
Speaker 5 (01:41):
I think a little bit of both.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I agree, it's more so of I think people in
shock of what your life is like right now. They're like,
I can't believe Dad's traveling around doing all this cool stuff.
He's writing a pretty sweet book, He's got some cool connections.
Chad's living the good life. So I just thought it
was funny you just came out the gate fire, So
I yeah. As soon as I got a couple of messages,
I was like, Okay, I wasn't the only one that
(02:03):
was like, what's going on right now?
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Chat is on one today?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
That is so funny.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I was also, you know, I wasn't recording from my
normal home environment. And you know, Mitchell knows, I actually
I don't like going anywhere, and it just so happens
that the first two months of this year, I have,
no joke, been traveling literally every single week. I've been
(02:30):
on planes for eight straight weeks, ten different cities, you know,
god knows how many states, just because of the book
and because of Indiana and because of All Star and
some other consulting work I'm doing, and like, so it's
just been a crazy, crazy few months with a lot.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Of articles stuff front chat.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
You really are you're I don't know if you're peeking
right now in life, but you had a crazy crazy
run there.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
You go to pret Sweet events.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Oh my god, dude, it was freaking wild.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Between the Indiana stuff and then you know, going to
Philly to see my kid for dinner, going to DC
to see the Wizards and the Lakers, going to spend
Super Bowl with this guy who's a marketmaker on.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Calshi for the book, Like, uh, super exciting, but you know.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Real quick on that before we go into the show,
what do you think of Nevada?
Speaker 5 (03:18):
And is I think they've been Calshi right?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, look, I think I think we're going to get
very very deep into all this, and and every day
it feels like there is more news around the prediction
markets and what's happening with legal sports betting on a
state by state basis and what the legal operators are doing.
(03:45):
You know, we've seen in the last week Draftking stock
has dropped precipitously. Jason Robbins has been trying to explain it.
Jason Robbins is talking about the stock getting killed and
that the market cap for his company is actually smaller
than what the valuation is for companies like Polymarket and Calshi.
(04:11):
So when he's asked if they would want to buy him,
he's pretty honest, like the valuations for these makes them
too high for us to acquire right now. But look,
this business is in chaos right now, and because the
prediction markets have sort of decided they are going to
do what Facebook did twenty years ago and Uber did
(04:34):
ten years ago and just start doing whatever they want
to do, and either the courts will eventually stop them
or everyone else will decide this is how business is
going to operate, and this is what the new opportunity is,
and they'll be way ahead of it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It's a fascinating time.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I'm enjoying doing the book because of all that, and
you and I, You and Mitchell we've talked about we
are going to get into the conversation around these We're
going to have on more experts.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
We're going to talk.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
About is this betting, is this not betting? How can
people participate? All those kinds of things. I think everyone
sort of needs to be informed about and educated about
what these are and why they're good, why they're bad,
what the benefits of the online operators are, all those
kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So it's going to be crazy. It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
I'm hoping Kelsey does what they should do, and they
should put up on their site. Will we exist in
five years? And you let people bet on it? And
I just want to hear your first opinion on it,
because I don't know if this is the first start
of it, right, Is this the crack in the ice
here where that is the first date the back they're
gambling companies and their casinos and bands.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I think it's I think it's an all or nothing proposition.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Interesting, Okay, I.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Think I think the prediction markets will exist. Will they
exist with sports is another question? And the real question
is it's twenty twenty six. In May of twenty eighteen,
the Supreme Court repealed the Professional Amateur Sports Protection Act
(06:14):
aka PASSPA and allowed every state to decide if they
wanted to legalize sports betting, whether through voter referendums, whether
through the state legislature enacting new laws, whatever the case
may be. This is a right leaning conservative Supreme Court.
It was a right leaning conservative Supreme Court in twenty eighteen.
(06:38):
The reason why proponents of legalized betting and people who
wanted PASSPA overturned believed they would get the right to
offer legalized sports betting in their state is because state's
rights is a conservative issue. They believe in the ability
of the state to decide their own opportunities and their
own future more than they believe in the government. What's interesting,
(07:03):
and this just happened, is the CFTC, the Commodity's Futures
Trading Commission, has now come out and said federal authority
should supersede state authority that are trying to block KLSHI
from being able to operate in their states where spports
betting is legal. So now you've got a conservative executive
(07:23):
branch and a conservative Supreme Court that may be on
a collision course because what the conservative executive branch and
the CFTC is saying does not align with the states
rights principles of you know, of historic conservative theology on
this topic. It's fascinating and that's exactly where it's going
(07:45):
to end up.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And by the way, the person.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Who wrote the decision to overturn PASPA was Samuel Alito,
who is one of the most conservative of all the
justices on the Supreme Court. So obviously minute and we're
going to dig deeper. It's part of the book that
I'm writing. Speaking of books, this guy has become one
(08:09):
of my favorite authors the past couple of years, since
we had him on a couple of years ago, and
he wrote that great book about Pete Rose that was
a New York Times bestseller that landed exactly as the
conversation around sports betting was becoming huge with the Dodgers scandal.
He is a New York Times bestselling author. His most
(08:30):
recent book digs deep on the defining year in the
life of an NBA player who went on to define
a generation. I'm talking about Keith O'Brien. His new book
out this week is titled Heartland Forgotten Place, an Impossible Dream, and.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
The Miracle of Larry Bird.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
A little bit of preamble here, this is mostly This
is mostly about birds senior season at Indiana State in
nineteen seventy nine culminated in the NCAA Finals against Magic
Johnson and Michigan State. This created the modern version of
March madness that we all love today. I want to
(09:14):
put in contexts. I always love doing this. I love
books like this because you know, I'm a soccer for
like narrative, historical nonfiction, and that's what this book is.
And it's brilliant. I've read it. It's great.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Kisa an amazing writer and reporter. But what's fun about
these books.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Is they put so much in context, and so I
like to look back and see, like, what else mattered
at the time, and how important was this moment in
that era. So on the same day as that Magic
and Bird NCAA finals, Egypt and Israel signed a historic
(09:56):
peace treaty. Same day two days later, Three Mile Island, Simon,
do you know what three Mile Island is?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Nope, Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Three Mile Island was a nuclear reactor in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 5 (10:08):
Oh yes, yes, basketball term.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
No, No, it melted down.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
I'm not that young.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
OK.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So that's that has set off a fifty year debate
about the safety of nuclear energy that still exists today.
Also very important for gamblers, very very important.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Did you know.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
March of nineteen seventy nine the spreadsheet was invented?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
What would you be doing today without the spreadsheet? Simon
you lost it's the cheat code, You'd be on an avocus.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
So all the reason I use all these reference points
is because if you ask chatchept, which I did for
the most important moments in March of nineteen seventy nine,
the Larry Bird Magic Johnson Finals gets the same billing
as three Mile Island invention to the Spreadsheet and the
Israeli Egypt Historic Peace to chords. Keith O'Brien. After all that,
(11:09):
welcome back to the show.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Brother, Wow, what an intro. I love it.
Speaker 6 (11:13):
I love it, Chad, Thanks so much, guys, great to
be back with you.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
We do our homework here, you do.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
We're not just going to have you come on talk
about the book as if we don't know what we're
asking you. We want people to buy the freaking book.
We want to see your Amazon sales rankings jump after
this show airs, we want like NPR level influence on
(11:43):
the bookselling community because we are the most literate sports
betting podcast in America.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
That's right. I love all of that.
Speaker 6 (11:49):
I mean, listen, you guys, move lines, right, you move
the spread. You talk about it all the time. Let's
move the line on this.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
I like it.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
But that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
So Ry, first question, given everything I just set up,
give me the hook, give me the why now for
a book about Larry Bird nineteen seventy nine Indiana State.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
Really a few reasons. First, I think we've been telling
the Larry Bird story wrong all these years. Yeah, you know,
the bird Magic game is critical. It's everything in late
March nineteen seventy nine, And for that reason, over the years,
almost every writer who's come to this story ends up
doing the bird Magic story. You know, they pile them
(12:34):
in together and they do that sing song narrative. And
you know, I get why they do that as a storyteller,
but when you do that, you end up diluting the
stories of both men, and you particularly end up end
up diluting the story of Larry Bird. I mean, this
is one of the great underdog stories of the past
(12:56):
fifty years. You know, there is a real reality that
I'm sure we'll discuss here today where we never know
Larry Bird's name, where he doesn't get out of French leg,
where he doesn't become a star. That's that's a real scenario.
You know, the fact that Indiana State was there is
an impossibility. So the whole thing is is just impossible.
(13:19):
And so what I wanted to do with this book
is really, you know, just to sort of do something
that storytellers often do, is that tilt, tilt the camera
just a little bit differently away from Bird and Magic
and directly on Bird and that.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Indiana State team.
Speaker 6 (13:38):
And the reason why I think that team is interesting,
and this is the second reason why I think the
book matters, is that I just think it's highly unlikely
that we're going to see something like that again today
in the era of name, image and likeness money. You know,
Larry Bird was a senior at Indiana State when they
(13:58):
finally broke through. Think about that for a second. It's
not like he shows up and they're suddenly great. He
doesn't even play on national TV for the first time
until about three weeks before his final basketball game, and
the NBC is late to the party here. Everybody is
They've never played on national TV, they've never made the
NCAA tournament, you know, and because of that, you know,
(14:22):
they're just not getting the coverage during that time. And
and and so you know, Larry Bird really explodes onto
the scene late, you know, and becomes a phenomenon with
this underdog team. And you know, in these days, a
young Larry Bird, who had a fantastic opening season in
(14:44):
in Terahood, Indiana, averaging thirty points a game, would have
left and would have signed with Purdue or Duke or
North Carolina or Indiana for like, you know, three four
five million dollars money that Indiana State doesn't have. So,
you know, I think it's a st story that paints
a picture of a time in place that we're just
not going to see again.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
You put into like, you know, context of just what
a miracle of a team that you know, Indiana State
team was, and you know it's someone like me that's
not from that era.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
The jerseys to me, when I.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Watch back in the day, that's the coolest part of it,
watching Larry with the hair with the jerseys. I mean,
it's someone that loves vintage basketball. I've watched tons and
tons of clips and you're right. I mean those it's
it's like a miracle team when you think about it.
And I just would love to know, in your opinion,
what are the comps two teams today?
Speaker 6 (15:34):
So you know, the seventy eight to seventy nine season,
that's the miracle year, right The year before was the
year that people thought something might happen. Larry Bird appears
on the cover of Sports Illustrated in November of seventy seven,
his first Sports Illustrated cover. It's an iconic cover. Almost
fifty years later, people know this cover and they're ranked.
(15:58):
Indiana State is in pre season polls, and they flame out.
They flame out. They start out thirteen to zero. They
hit a rough patch. They can't get out of it.
They're not a real team. They don't really get along.
It's a classic story of too many people wanting the ball,
not letting Larry do Larry, and they don't make the
(16:19):
NSAA tournament. They don't go anywhere. You know, entering that
next year, his senior year, Bird could have left, he
could have gone to the Celtics. He's been drafted already.
You know, in those times, an NBA team held your
rights for a year, whether you left school or not.
And Red Aarbach, you know, makes a bet on Larry Bird.
(16:42):
You know, the Celtics that year have two picks in
the top ten, which they never did.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
In those days.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
And he decides he's going to burn one on this
Larry Bird guy out of Tara Haat, even though Arbach
knows that Bird's not leaving, He's made it known he's
not leaving school. And our Backs says something that I
think is fascinating. It's a fascinating quote for life, for business,
for sports, for everything. You know, when he drafts Bird,
(17:10):
a lot of people are perplexed. You know, why would
you do this? We've never seen this guy, he's never
played anybody. Is he really good? And he's not even
coming here? Why would we do this? And our bachs says, time,
I'm paraphrasing here. Time moves faster than people think, and
folks are gonna kick themselves a year from now.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
And you know he's right.
Speaker 6 (17:33):
You know, entering that season, nobody's talking about Indiana State.
It's the opposite of the year before. They're not ranked,
they're picked to finish third or fourth in their own conference,
which is the Missouri Valley Conference. It was nothing in
those days. We're talking about Drake Tulsa, et cetera, and
nobody's talking about him. And then four days before practices begin,
(17:57):
the head coach of Indiana State falls ill, he nearly
dies and as a result, they have to scramble and
they decide to a point as head coach. This man
who had recruited Bird found him on the brink of
nothing in French Lick a few years earlier, a man
named Bill Hodges. So it's a total mess. No one
(18:19):
cares and it's just one of those classic stories where
it doesn't really matter about the talent in the room.
It matters do the guys get along, do they understand
their roles? Are they happy to be there? Are they
ready to work? Are they fighting for something? And you
know that's what fuels this epics season thirty three and
(18:40):
oh entering that final game, it's incredible. So to your question, Simon,
is there a comp today? I mean, really no, there isn't.
And I know we're going to talk about Indiana football
maybe in a second here check, But to me, the
closest comp would be like Butler Bulldog twenty ten. You
(19:01):
know the Gordon Hayward, Sheldon Mack. You know Brad Stevens
eight seed out of nowhere, nearly nearly beats Duke. That
to me is the closest comp in modern times.
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Tennessee and Virginia. Like I said, I've read the book
(21:06):
and it's amazing because of the reporting threads that you
bring together and how you lay out this miracle of
a season doesn't happen unless there are seven, eight nine
different circumstances that come together, including Bill Hodges being a
(21:32):
dogged recruiter and having a great eye for talent, and
then ultimately getting.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
That job from the coach who probably would not have.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Managed the team in the same way because he had
done badly the year before with an incredible group of
talent and sort of for a variety of reasons, missed
lost the plot on what that.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Team could be.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
There's the story of one of the players who had
nearly lost his arm and like a combine thresher farming accident,
and like other players who were transferred in and out
and come back really amazing stories and the reporting is brilliant.
Put me in the scene, like when you're on the
(22:17):
ground in French lick, what are you seeing?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
What's catching your eye?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
About the circumstances that allowed someone like Larry Bird to
become Larry Bird?
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Well, you know you know the deal, Chad.
Speaker 6 (22:34):
When you're reporting a book, when you're going somewhere, it's
often for very specific reasons. You're flying there to meet
with someone or meet with these four or five people
over the course of a number of days. And you know,
there was some of that, you know, with this with
this book, of course.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
But one thing I.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
Learned about French Lick very early on is I could
get people's phone numbers. I could know that those phone
numbers were right. I could be and leaving voicemails and
people just weren't calling me back by in March, you know,
And so what I did initially was just go to
French Lick book a room at the Best Western on
(23:13):
the edge of town, you know, plan to spend four
days there, with no real idea of how I was
filling that time exactly. And then once I was coming,
texting and calling the people who were not calling me
back and saying, I will be there Monday through Thursday
next week. I will meet you anywhere, anytime. And that
honestly was a huge breakthrough.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
You know.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
Once I was there, boots on the ground, you know,
in the library, in the local archives, hanging out at
the American Legion bar at night, which I did, you know,
I became a presence. I became someone, and you know,
now I'm I'm getting access to folks who've never talked
before about Larry Bird.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
People have known him their whole lives, you know, so
that was crucial.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
But you know, one thing I do with a narrative
book like this is, you know, when you go to
a place, I want to see the places that I'm
writing about. So I'm going to the grave site of
Larry Bird's father, you know, which is on a hill
in dou Boys County, just south of French Lick. I'm
going to a bar called Butchies in do Boys, you know,
(24:23):
where Larry would hang out in the eighties in order
to get away from the tourists and the fans who
might drift down to French Lick to see him. You know,
I'm going to the Little Mansion, and I say little
mansion because it's not really a mansion that Larry builds
initially for his mother in West Baden Springs, just north
(24:44):
of French Lick after he signs with the Celtics. You know,
I'm standing in that driveway. I'm standing on the cracked,
you know, basketball court that Larry poured down in a
grove of trees there and would famously play Magic Johnson
on that court for a Converse commercial in nineteen eighty five.
You know, I want to see these places. I want
(25:05):
to describe what it looks like if the sun is rising,
you know. I want to describe the cracks and the pavement,
you know. So you know that's the kind of stuff
I'm doing when I'm on the ground.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I mean that I'm sick to my stomach and filled
with anxiety thinking about landing in a place like French
Lick or as I've done in other places, and not
really knowing what you're going to get, not knowing if
anyone is going to talk to you. This is very
(25:37):
inside book writing, but I also think it's relevant for
broader context.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
We're talking about just how to get shit done when you.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Land on the ground and you're in French Lick and
you're in that best Western are you like immediately getting
out on the town, trying to be at the bars,
at the restaurants, wherever are you texting people like how
are you making yourself a presence? And how anxious are
(26:09):
you that? Holy shit, I signed a book deal. I
got to deliver this book and nobody will talk to me.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
So true.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
I mean, let's talk about something that really matters to
Chad here, Simon the anxiety of having a book deal
and not knowing where it's going. I mean, that is
that's some real That's some real stuff, people, that's the
real stuff. And your wife doesn't want to see you
when you're in that place, your kids don't want to
see the dog doesn't want to see you when you're
(26:38):
in that places. It's all real, right, Chad, Right, I'm
talking real stuff here.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It is, dude.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
My wife and I were going on a trip a
few weeks ago, and you know, I haven't written a
book in fifteen years, and so she remembers sort of
that I used to get at what she calls book brain. Well,
I'm usually a pretty I am on the details, especially
(27:07):
when it comes to organization, household systems, logistics, truly annoying.
And we were at an airport, sitting at a gate
and my name was announced over the loudspeaker because I
left my bag in like where we had bought food
(27:30):
before our flight. And I had been sitting at the
gate for forty five minutes and didn't even notice my
bag was gone. And she looked at me and she goes,
oh shit, I forgot about book brain. Like you just
you're not present in anything there's only one thing you're
thinking about all the time, and it's the book.
Speaker 6 (27:50):
I mean, this is a story I'll tell here and
only on this podcast, only for your listeners.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
I mean, I got two dogs.
Speaker 6 (27:58):
And you know, the dogs need to be walked in
the day, and I work in a home office. You know,
I'm lucky to be able to do that, and you know,
but you know, when you're walking the dogs in the
middle of the day. Even sometimes when I'm listening to
your podcast, while I'm doing it, I'm thinking about my book,
or I'm thinking about the chapter I'm writing, or thinking
about the thing that hasn't the tumblr that hasn't fallen
(28:18):
through yet, right, And sometimes I'll actually curse out loud,
you know, not even knowing that I'm doing it, And
my poor dog will sometimes turn around to me, like, are.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
You okay, buddy, are you okay? This is this is
the world we live in.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
But I mean, back to your question, I mean, you know,
I don't want to paint too dire of of a
portrait here. Certainly, on that first trip to French Lick,
there was a lot unknown. I did have a couple
of footholds, you know, meetings, I had set up. I
wasn't coming in blind. I let the library and the
librarian know I was coming. I wanted access to certain
(28:54):
things that they had there, and only there. Librarians are
your friend, arkavis are your friend, and I reach out
to them like a lifeline in a book writing situation.
But you know, you know, there certainly was anxiety, you know,
And I didn't even know. I mentioned a minute ago
(29:15):
the American Legion Bar in French Like, I didn't know
that existed. I didn't know that's where people hung out.
But once I was in the library and I was
doing the work there in the archive in the back room,
literally on the floor, scanning documents, very glamorous work, you know,
I asked the librarian, Hey, where can I find this
(29:35):
certain person?
Speaker 4 (29:36):
You know? And it was a person who's you know,
old timer.
Speaker 6 (29:40):
Knew Larry's dad had information you know that was maybe
helpful for me. And she said, well, he usually hangs
out at the American Legion Bar. And I said, well
where's that and what time do people go there? And
she said, well, the people are there now, it's like
four thirty and so you know, I will remember, you know,
pulling up outside the American le Jin bar. You know,
(30:01):
this is me, right, this is who I am, and
sitting outside in the car going well, I'm going in.
I guess I'm going in right, And you know, it's
one of those moments where you open the door to
this small little bar and it's like a record scratch
moment where literally everybody stops and turns around is like,
who is this guy?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Right?
Speaker 6 (30:22):
I mean, french Lick is a town of about two
thousand people, seventeen hundred people. Everybody knows who hangs out
at the American Legion Bar. I am not that person.
And so it took me all of you know, from
getting from the door to the bar twelve steps where
I find I had to start introducing myself because people
are like, you don't belong here. But as soon as
(30:43):
I said who I was and what I was working on,
I mean, people were thrilled. They were thrilled you know
that someone was there who was taking an interest, and
they were excited to talk. And I'll be honest, on
every occasion that I've been back in french Lick for reporting,
you know, I go to the American Legion Bar and
and now I don't go necessarily to do reporting, although
(31:05):
when you're there you do meet people. I go because
when I walk in, they know me there now.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Yeah, it's you know for someone like me, I think
of Larry as someone that you know through TikTok or Instagram.
You just see clips and hear stories about players talking
about them. Right, that's the new generation. That's kind of
our intro to Larry Bird. Right, just his whole complex
being cold blooded, just you know, a legendary killer, and
(31:38):
when you talk about sports, you put him on the
pedestal of the guy like Kobe where he's that same
cold blooded type.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
And you know, obviously you dove into it.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
He's obviously a much more complex person obviously, just you know,
people come off he's a super confident. Do that be
people are afraid of? I would just love you to
explain what is his?
Speaker 5 (32:00):
Now? Who is Larry Bird?
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (32:02):
You know those tiktoks and those memes, you know they're accurate.
You know, they capture, they capture who Larry Bird was,
especially as an NBA player, you know, once he got
to the league and established himself there, you know, that's
really where he comes into his own as a trash talker,
you know, and someone who was, to use your term Simon,
(32:25):
a killer.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
But you know that was in him from the start.
Speaker 6 (32:29):
You know, he was he he had that in him
all the way back at Springs Valley High School, you know,
in nineteen seventy three, seventy four.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
He has that in.
Speaker 6 (32:39):
Him, you know, when he shows up at Indiana States
in the summer of nineteen seventy five. But you know,
it's it's a bit of a shallow profile I think
of this man. You know, he he absolutely had confidence
in himself that was unshakable from the start.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
But he was also a sensitive young man.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
You know.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
He he bristled, you know, at people who did and
said small things that rubbed him the wrong way. You know, he,
you know, was honest and admitting later that he would
shut down, you know if he felt someone had slighted him,
wronged him.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
You know, he, you know, I think.
Speaker 6 (33:22):
Struggled to to play well with others and integrate well
with others in situations where he felt uncomfortable. I think
that is absolutely what happened in Bloomington at Indiana University
in the late summer of nineteen seventy four. You know,
as many of your listeners will know, you know, Bird
(33:44):
first signs with Bobby Knight at Indiana, and you know,
people hear that and think, well, well, he must have
been somebody, he must have been great.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
That's not really true.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
You know, Bird was not a first team All State
player in Indiana in nineteen seventy four. In fact, according
to voters in Indiana that year, there were fifteen players
who were better than Larry Bird.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
He makes the state.
Speaker 6 (34:11):
All Star team, which is a big deal in Indiana,
but he only really does so because a columnist in
a little town and southern Indiana really advocates for him.
And when he makes that team, he hardly plays, which
infuriates him. And so when he shows up in Bloomington
in late August seventy four, he's not a big deal.
He's not a big star. And that Indiana team is
(34:35):
truly great. You know, they're going to win, They're going
to have an undefeated season one year later without Larry,
that's how good they are. And so when Larry shows
up there, they don't care about him. You know, they
treat him like every other freshman, especially a freshman from
a little town and a little school that nobody's heard of.
And you know, I don't think anything nefarious happens while
(34:58):
Larry's you know, Aaron Bloomington for twenty three twenty one days.
I just I don't think he can handle that, which
is why he leaves and goes home.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Do you feel like Larry Bird today?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
You mentioned the slights, you mentioned the sensitivities.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
He refused to speak to the.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Media several times. You've mentioned his father a couple times.
You know, his father committed suicide and that was not
and Larry Bird had a kid early in his life.
I think he was eighteen nineteen and was married. These
were things that were not well known, but reporters found
them out and then wrote about them.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
How do you think a Larry Bird.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Of today manages the storm of social media, of NonStop attention.
Does Larry Bird have a chance to become Larry Bird
under circumstances like today?
Speaker 4 (36:00):
You know, you're right, Chad.
Speaker 6 (36:02):
In the nineteen seventies he had these these secrets, if
you will, you know, in his closet. And I want
to be clear, right, I just wrote a book about
Pete Rose, who had real problems in his past. You know,
real controversies, lies about terrible things, right, That is not
the Larry Bird story. But he has these things, you know,
you mention it, his his father commits suicide.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
This is a real trauma.
Speaker 6 (36:27):
They don't use that word in nineteen seventy five, but
that's what that is, right, We know that.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
Now it is a trauma.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
You know, he marries young, as a lot of you know,
kids from small towns did in the nineteen seventies. That
does not end well, you know. And you know the
press in Tara Hote, you know, they know these stories
in seventy five, seventy six, seventy seven, they know them
and they don't write about them.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
You know.
Speaker 6 (36:53):
It's one of those classic things where the press knows
things that they're not, you know, revealing to the fans,
to the public, to the readers. But from the moment
that Larry hits the cover of Sports Illustrated and in
November of seventy seven, you know, he is now you know,
fair game, you know to the national media, and you
know it's a great story. There's a reason why Sports
(37:15):
Illustrated is coming in eight weeks later to write a
massive profile on him, because this is an impossible story.
This never should have happened. But when they do show
up of course, they want to do the kind of
work that we do. You know, they want to tell
his backstory.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
And you know, I.
Speaker 6 (37:32):
Interviewed almost every reporter who crossed paths with Bird in
a meaningful way in the seventies. I think talking to
the media who cover someone is a really useful thing.
And one of them was the Sports Illustrated writer that
some of you will know, certainly, Chad, you'll know Larry Keith.
Larry Keith a longtime writer for Sports Illustrated. And you know,
(37:55):
Larry was a huge deal in seventy seven seventy eight,
one of the best writers in the country, big name.
He shows up in Terre Haute in January of seventy
eight and he makes a mistake. You know, he tells
Bird that he's there to write us a profile of
him and show that he's more than just a basketball player.
And the moment that Keith says that, it's just like
(38:17):
a light switch, you know, Bird goes dark, just shuts down,
and so Keith has to do that week sort of
what I had to do in a lot of ways.
You know, he's got to go interview everybody else about Larry. Okay,
Larry's not going to talk to him, but he's got
this job to do. What's how's he going to tell
this story? So he's talking to people in French lick.
(38:37):
He's you know, the first who sort of breaks news
about you know, Larry's past. And you know, in a
lot of ways, Larry's grown up. And he said that himself.
You know, he's matured obviously a lot none of us
are who we were when we were eighteen nineteen years old.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
You know.
Speaker 6 (38:57):
And Larry's done today what he wanted to do in
seventy seven, seventy eight, seventy nine. You know, he's finally disappeared.
You know, he doesn't engage, He isn't on social media,
and and you know, based on the people that I've interviewed,
and I mean his closest friends, people he's texting right now,
(39:18):
Larry doesn't care, you know, what people are saying are
doing about him and I and I think that's that's
there's something admirable about that.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
What I should have asked you this in the beginning.
He told me the why. But how did you even
come up with the idea?
Speaker 6 (39:39):
You know, I'd finished the Pete Rose book, I'd finished
Charlie Hustle. It wasn't out yet, you know, and that's
a time when you're you're dreaming up story ideas, you're
dreaming up projects, possibilities. You know, I've got a list
on the wall here of potential things that I might
want to dig into. And you know, I'm from the Midwest.
(39:59):
I'm from Cincinnati. I spent a lot of time back
there during the reporting of Charlie Hustle. And while that
book was in a lot of way is exactly like
all my other books. It's narrative nonfiction, I'm not in it.
It was more personal.
Speaker 5 (40:12):
You know.
Speaker 6 (40:13):
I was back in my home. I was almost writing
a postcard, you know, from my past. And as I
was doing that, I was just thinking about other Midwestern stories.
And you know, someone mentioned to me, oh, you should
do you know, a Larry Bird biography, and I was like,
I don't. I don't want to do a Larry Bird biography,
but you know, I might be interested in just this
(40:36):
little window of time, this this Indiana state story. And
so I just started noodling around on it. I you know,
went down the rabbit hole. And you know, without giving
away too much, there was a scene, a moment in
late March nineteen seventy nine, after the Bird Magic Game,
after this team, this miracle team has returned to Tara
(40:57):
Haute returned home. That happens that when I read it,
I couldn't believe it, and I thought it couldn't be right.
It was just too amazing, it was too great, it
was too cinematic. And once I stumbled onto that sort
of ending, I almost worked in reverse.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Larry doesn't strike me as a guy that likes to
even live in the past, let alone talk about the past.
Did you, like have to reach out to him a
bunch of times? Did he ever respond no or just
never respond? What was what was that interaction?
Speaker 6 (41:28):
Like I did reach out to Larry, you know, I
reached out, you know, through his proper channels, through his agent.
I would say I made three or four official approaches,
you know, and you know the initial reproach was cordial
and no, and it's sort of unraveled from there, you know,
(41:55):
you know, and I don't know why. You know, I
don't know why. You know, this isn't a Pete Rose story,
you know, where someone has real problems that they hid
and lied about. You know, they're didn't I didn't understand
at times the resistance, you know, But once I was
(42:18):
working trying to get in through the front door, I
was also trying to get in through the back door
or the side door, you know.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
As I mentioned, you know, I got.
Speaker 6 (42:26):
Pretty close with Larry's closest friends, and I mean the
people he's in contact with right now. Not Danny Ainge,
not Kevin McHale, you know, but his friends, the people
he hangs out with. Today, they sat down with me,
you know, they granted access to me long interviews, and
so now I'm asking them, hey, can you please help me,
(42:47):
you know, connect with Larry.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
And you know I.
Speaker 6 (42:50):
Want to do that, of course, for all the obvious reasons.
But you know, I've learned over the years through this project,
the Charlie Hustle project, and many that you know, while
it's always helpful, of course, to talk to the subject
of the center of the story, you can sometimes get
a more accurate portrait by talking to twelve, fifteen, twenty five,
(43:12):
one hundred people who were watching the person at the
center of the story. And in this case, you know,
Heartland is more than just a book about Larry Bird.
It is a story of a team, a time, a Place,
Bill Hodge's, Larry's roommates, Larry's teammates, this town, and so
you know, all of those people were speaking to me,
(43:34):
and it was through those interviews that I was able
to tell this story.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Keith O'Brien, you nailed it. It was fantastic, great book.
All the reporting comes out perfectly woven. Love the book, Heartland,
Forgotten Place and Impossible Dream and the Miracle.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Of Larry Bird.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I mean, I think it's fair to say you're the
Dostyevsky of twentieth century sports nonfiction. If The Gambler was
written today, you might be writing it. Keith Obrien, I
hope you sell a million copies, brother a million.
Speaker 6 (44:12):
Thank you so much, Chad, thank you, Simon. It was
so awesome to be back with you guys.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
This has been Sharper Square, part of the Volume podcast network.
Watch or listen on YouTube, but Sharper Square like the video,
Subscribe to the channel, downloads on Spotify, Apple Pods wherever
you get your pods.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Rate review, subscribe. Wevi was five stars. Say whatever you want.
Feedback is a gift. Until next time. I love you,
Welcome to Sharper Square, presented by hard Rock Vet. We
are part of the Volume podcast Network. This is the
show that makes the squares sharper and makes the wise
guys pay attention all year long.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I am Chad Norman.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I am joined as always, buy my bff, my companion,
my compadre, my co host, professional better Simon Hunter. Hello, Simon, Chad.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
It's always fun hearing from uh, just new fans in general,
especially ones that who just joined this year so they
really haven't heard our after football type of shows.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
The feedback is always hilarious from different people. Obviously, you know,
some people love us, some people hate us. The biggest
one was, is this Chad for the whole offseason? And
I said to people, I don't know if Chad's always
going to have such great stories like that, right, Like
that was you had to build up of really good stories.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
You had to get them all out on one show.
But yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Said, Chad, Dad's gonna talk about Chad and tell some stories,
and they all, that's what we're doing here, people, But yeah,
I thought that was very funny from hearing from a
lot of people where they're like, yeah, during the season,
I get it. It's like you guys are just doing
quick stories and stuff. But Chad was really really on
one last last show, and I was like, Yeah, that's
that's all season, Chad.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
That is so funny.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I can't tell is this Chad for the whole off season?
Is that like, oh my god, he's insufferable or oh
my god, he's living some crazy life.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
And I can't believe we get.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
To hear these stories, like what exactly is the is
the context for oh my god?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Is this Chad off season?
Speaker 5 (01:41):
I think a little bit of both.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I agree, it's more so of I think people in
shock of what your life is like right now. They're like,
I can't believe Dad's traveling around doing all this cool stuff.
He's writing a pretty sweet book, He's got some cool connections.
Chad's living the good life. So I just thought it
was funny you just came out the gate fire, So
I yeah. As soon as I got a couple of messages,
I was like, Okay, I wasn't the only one that
(02:03):
was like, what's going on right now?
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Chat is on one today?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
That is so funny.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I was also, you know, I wasn't recording from my
normal home environment. And you know, Mitchell knows, I actually
I don't like going anywhere, and it just so happens
that the first two months of this year, I have,
no joke, been traveling literally every single week. I've been
(02:30):
on planes for eight straight weeks, ten different cities, you know,
god knows how many states, just because of the book
and because of Indiana and because of All Star and
some other consulting work I'm doing, and like, so it's
just been a crazy, crazy few months with a lot.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Of articles stuff front chat.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
You really are you're I don't know if you're peeking
right now in life, but you had a crazy crazy
run there.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
You go to pret Sweet events.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Oh my god, dude, it was freaking wild.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Between the Indiana stuff and then you know, going to
Philly to see my kid for dinner, going to DC
to see the Wizards and the Lakers, going to spend
Super Bowl with this guy who's a marketmaker on.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Calshi for the book, Like, uh, super exciting, but you know.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Real quick on that before we go into the show,
what do you think of Nevada?
Speaker 5 (03:18):
And is I think they've been Calshi right?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, look, I think I think we're going to get
very very deep into all this, and and every day
it feels like there is more news around the prediction
markets and what's happening with legal sports betting on a
state by state basis and what the legal operators are doing.
(03:45):
You know, we've seen in the last week Draftking stock
has dropped precipitously. Jason Robbins has been trying to explain it.
Jason Robbins is talking about the stock getting killed and
that the market cap for his company is actually smaller
than what the valuation is for companies like Polymarket and Calshi.
(04:11):
So when he's asked if they would want to buy him,
he's pretty honest, like the valuations for these makes them
too high for us to acquire right now. But look,
this business is in chaos right now, and because the
prediction markets have sort of decided they are going to
do what Facebook did twenty years ago and Uber did
(04:34):
ten years ago and just start doing whatever they want
to do, and either the courts will eventually stop them
or everyone else will decide this is how business is
going to operate, and this is what the new opportunity is,
and they'll be way ahead of it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It's a fascinating time.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I'm enjoying doing the book because of all that, and
you and I, You and Mitchell we've talked about we
are going to get into the conversation around these We're
going to have on more experts.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
We're going to talk.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
About is this betting, is this not betting? How can
people participate? All those kinds of things. I think everyone
sort of needs to be informed about and educated about
what these are and why they're good, why they're bad,
what the benefits of the online operators are, all those
kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So it's going to be crazy. It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
I'm hoping Kelsey does what they should do, and they
should put up on their site. Will we exist in
five years? And you let people bet on it? And
I just want to hear your first opinion on it,
because I don't know if this is the first start
of it, right, Is this the crack in the ice
here where that is the first date the back they're
gambling companies and their casinos and bands.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I think it's I think it's an all or nothing proposition.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Interesting, Okay, I.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Think I think the prediction markets will exist. Will they
exist with sports is another question? And the real question
is it's twenty twenty six. In May of twenty eighteen,
the Supreme Court repealed the Professional Amateur Sports Protection Act
(06:14):
aka PASSPA and allowed every state to decide if they
wanted to legalize sports betting, whether through voter referendums, whether
through the state legislature enacting new laws, whatever the case
may be. This is a right leaning conservative Supreme Court.
It was a right leaning conservative Supreme Court in twenty eighteen.
(06:38):
The reason why proponents of legalized betting and people who
wanted PASSPA overturned believed they would get the right to
offer legalized sports betting in their state is because state's
rights is a conservative issue. They believe in the ability
of the state to decide their own opportunities and their
own future more than they believe in the government. What's interesting,
(07:03):
and this just happened, is the CFTC, the Commodity's Futures
Trading Commission, has now come out and said federal authority
should supersede state authority that are trying to block KLSHI
from being able to operate in their states where spports
betting is legal. So now you've got a conservative executive
(07:23):
branch and a conservative Supreme Court that may be on
a collision course because what the conservative executive branch and
the CFTC is saying does not align with the states
rights principles of you know, of historic conservative theology on
this topic. It's fascinating and that's exactly where it's going
(07:45):
to end up.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And by the way, the person.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Who wrote the decision to overturn PASPA was Samuel Alito,
who is one of the most conservative of all the
justices on the Supreme Court. So obviously minute and we're
going to dig deeper. It's part of the book that
I'm writing. Speaking of books, this guy has become one
(08:09):
of my favorite authors the past couple of years, since
we had him on a couple of years ago, and
he wrote that great book about Pete Rose that was
a New York Times bestseller that landed exactly as the
conversation around sports betting was becoming huge with the Dodgers scandal.
He is a New York Times bestselling author. His most
(08:30):
recent book digs deep on the defining year in the
life of an NBA player who went on to define
a generation. I'm talking about Keith O'Brien. His new book
out this week is titled Heartland Forgotten Place, an Impossible Dream, and.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
The Miracle of Larry Bird.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
A little bit of preamble here, this is mostly This
is mostly about birds senior season at Indiana State in
nineteen seventy nine culminated in the NCAA Finals against Magic
Johnson and Michigan State. This created the modern version of
March madness that we all love today. I want to
(09:14):
put in contexts. I always love doing this. I love
books like this because you know, I'm a soccer for
like narrative, historical nonfiction, and that's what this book is.
And it's brilliant. I've read it. It's great.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Kisa an amazing writer and reporter. But what's fun about
these books.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Is they put so much in context, and so I
like to look back and see, like, what else mattered
at the time, and how important was this moment in
that era. So on the same day as that Magic
and Bird NCAA finals, Egypt and Israel signed a historic
(09:56):
peace treaty. Same day two days later, Three Mile Island, Simon,
do you know what three Mile Island is?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Nope, Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Three Mile Island was a nuclear reactor in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 5 (10:08):
Oh yes, yes, basketball term.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
No, No, it melted down.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
I'm not that young.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
OK.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So that's that has set off a fifty year debate
about the safety of nuclear energy that still exists today.
Also very important for gamblers, very very important.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Did you know.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
March of nineteen seventy nine the spreadsheet was invented?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
What would you be doing today without the spreadsheet? Simon
you lost it's the cheat code, You'd be on an avocus.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
So all the reason I use all these reference points
is because if you ask chatchept, which I did for
the most important moments in March of nineteen seventy nine,
the Larry Bird Magic Johnson Finals gets the same billing
as three Mile Island invention to the Spreadsheet and the
Israeli Egypt Historic Peace to chords. Keith O'Brien. After all that,
(11:09):
welcome back to the show.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Brother, Wow, what an intro. I love it.
Speaker 6 (11:13):
I love it, Chad, Thanks so much, guys, great to
be back with you.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
We do our homework here, you do.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
We're not just going to have you come on talk
about the book as if we don't know what we're
asking you. We want people to buy the freaking book.
We want to see your Amazon sales rankings jump after
this show airs, we want like NPR level influence on
(11:43):
the bookselling community because we are the most literate sports
betting podcast in America.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
That's right. I love all of that.
Speaker 6 (11:49):
I mean, listen, you guys, move lines, right, you move
the spread. You talk about it all the time. Let's
move the line on this.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
I like it.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
But that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
So Ry, first question, given everything I just set up,
give me the hook, give me the why now for
a book about Larry Bird nineteen seventy nine Indiana State.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
Really a few reasons. First, I think we've been telling
the Larry Bird story wrong all these years. Yeah, you know,
the bird Magic game is critical. It's everything in late
March nineteen seventy nine, And for that reason, over the years,
almost every writer who's come to this story ends up
doing the bird Magic story. You know, they pile them
(12:34):
in together and they do that sing song narrative. And
you know, I get why they do that as a storyteller,
but when you do that, you end up diluting the
stories of both men, and you particularly end up end
up diluting the story of Larry Bird. I mean, this
is one of the great underdog stories of the past
(12:56):
fifty years. You know, there is a real reality that
I'm sure we'll discuss here today where we never know
Larry Bird's name, where he doesn't get out of French leg,
where he doesn't become a star. That's that's a real scenario.
You know, the fact that Indiana State was there is
an impossibility. So the whole thing is is just impossible.
(13:19):
And so what I wanted to do with this book
is really, you know, just to sort of do something
that storytellers often do, is that tilt, tilt the camera
just a little bit differently away from Bird and Magic
and directly on Bird and that.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Indiana State team.
Speaker 6 (13:38):
And the reason why I think that team is interesting,
and this is the second reason why I think the
book matters, is that I just think it's highly unlikely
that we're going to see something like that again today
in the era of name, image and likeness money. You know,
Larry Bird was a senior at Indiana State when they
(13:58):
finally broke through. Think about that for a second. It's
not like he shows up and they're suddenly great. He
doesn't even play on national TV for the first time
until about three weeks before his final basketball game, and
the NBC is late to the party here. Everybody is
They've never played on national TV, they've never made the
NCAA tournament, you know, and because of that, you know,
(14:22):
they're just not getting the coverage during that time. And
and and so you know, Larry Bird really explodes onto
the scene late, you know, and becomes a phenomenon with
this underdog team. And you know, in these days, a
young Larry Bird, who had a fantastic opening season in
(14:44):
in Terahood, Indiana, averaging thirty points a game, would have
left and would have signed with Purdue or Duke or
North Carolina or Indiana for like, you know, three four
five million dollars money that Indiana State doesn't have. So,
you know, I think it's a st story that paints
a picture of a time in place that we're just
not going to see again.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
You put into like, you know, context of just what
a miracle of a team that you know, Indiana State
team was, and you know it's someone like me that's
not from that era.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
The jerseys to me, when I.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Watch back in the day, that's the coolest part of it,
watching Larry with the hair with the jerseys. I mean,
it's someone that loves vintage basketball. I've watched tons and
tons of clips and you're right. I mean those it's
it's like a miracle team when you think about it.
And I just would love to know, in your opinion,
what are the comps two teams today?
Speaker 6 (15:34):
So you know, the seventy eight to seventy nine season,
that's the miracle year, right The year before was the
year that people thought something might happen. Larry Bird appears
on the cover of Sports Illustrated in November of seventy seven,
his first Sports Illustrated cover. It's an iconic cover. Almost
fifty years later, people know this cover and they're ranked.
(15:58):
Indiana State is in pre season polls, and they flame out.
They flame out. They start out thirteen to zero. They
hit a rough patch. They can't get out of it.
They're not a real team. They don't really get along.
It's a classic story of too many people wanting the ball,
not letting Larry do Larry, and they don't make the
(16:19):
NSAA tournament. They don't go anywhere. You know, entering that
next year, his senior year, Bird could have left, he
could have gone to the Celtics. He's been drafted already.
You know, in those times, an NBA team held your
rights for a year, whether you left school or not.
And Red Aarbach, you know, makes a bet on Larry Bird.
(16:42):
You know, the Celtics that year have two picks in
the top ten, which they never did.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
In those days.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
And he decides he's going to burn one on this
Larry Bird guy out of Tara Haat, even though Arbach
knows that Bird's not leaving, He's made it known he's
not leaving school. And our Backs says something that I
think is fascinating. It's a fascinating quote for life, for business,
for sports, for everything. You know, when he drafts Bird,
(17:10):
a lot of people are perplexed. You know, why would
you do this? We've never seen this guy, he's never
played anybody. Is he really good? And he's not even
coming here? Why would we do this? And our bachs says, time,
I'm paraphrasing here. Time moves faster than people think, and
folks are gonna kick themselves a year from now.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
And you know he's right.
Speaker 6 (17:33):
You know, entering that season, nobody's talking about Indiana State.
It's the opposite of the year before. They're not ranked,
they're picked to finish third or fourth in their own conference,
which is the Missouri Valley Conference. It was nothing in
those days. We're talking about Drake Tulsa, et cetera, and
nobody's talking about him. And then four days before practices begin,
(17:57):
the head coach of Indiana State falls ill, he nearly
dies and as a result, they have to scramble and
they decide to a point as head coach. This man
who had recruited Bird found him on the brink of
nothing in French Lick a few years earlier, a man
named Bill Hodges. So it's a total mess. No one
(18:19):
cares and it's just one of those classic stories where
it doesn't really matter about the talent in the room.
It matters do the guys get along, do they understand
their roles? Are they happy to be there? Are they
ready to work? Are they fighting for something? And you
know that's what fuels this epics season thirty three and
(18:40):
oh entering that final game, it's incredible. So to your question, Simon,
is there a comp today? I mean, really no, there isn't.
And I know we're going to talk about Indiana football
maybe in a second here check, But to me, the
closest comp would be like Butler Bulldog twenty ten. You
(19:01):
know the Gordon Hayward, Sheldon Mack. You know Brad Stevens
eight seed out of nowhere, nearly nearly beats Duke. That
to me is the closest comp in modern times.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
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Tennessee and Virginia. Like I said, I've read the book
(21:06):
and it's amazing because of the reporting threads that you
bring together and how you lay out this miracle of
a season doesn't happen unless there are seven, eight nine
different circumstances that come together, including Bill Hodges being a
(21:32):
dogged recruiter and having a great eye for talent, and
then ultimately getting.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
That job from the coach who probably would not have.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Managed the team in the same way because he had
done badly the year before with an incredible group of
talent and sort of for a variety of reasons, missed
lost the plot on what that.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Team could be.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
There's the story of one of the players who had
nearly lost his arm and like a combine thresher farming accident,
and like other players who were transferred in and out
and come back really amazing stories and the reporting is brilliant.
Put me in the scene, like when you're on the
(22:17):
ground in French lick, what are you seeing?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
What's catching your eye?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
About the circumstances that allowed someone like Larry Bird to
become Larry Bird?
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Well, you know you know the deal, Chad.
Speaker 6 (22:34):
When you're reporting a book, when you're going somewhere, it's
often for very specific reasons. You're flying there to meet
with someone or meet with these four or five people
over the course of a number of days. And you know,
there was some of that, you know, with this with
this book, of course.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
But one thing I.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
Learned about French Lick very early on is I could
get people's phone numbers. I could know that those phone
numbers were right. I could be and leaving voicemails and
people just weren't calling me back by in March, you know,
And so what I did initially was just go to
French Lick book a room at the Best Western on
(23:13):
the edge of town, you know, plan to spend four
days there, with no real idea of how I was
filling that time exactly. And then once I was coming,
texting and calling the people who were not calling me
back and saying, I will be there Monday through Thursday
next week. I will meet you anywhere, anytime. And that
honestly was a huge breakthrough.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
You know.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
Once I was there, boots on the ground, you know,
in the library, in the local archives, hanging out at
the American Legion bar at night, which I did, you know,
I became a presence. I became someone, and you know,
now I'm I'm getting access to folks who've never talked
before about Larry Bird.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
People have known him their whole lives, you know, so
that was crucial.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
But you know, one thing I do with a narrative
book like this is, you know, when you go to
a place, I want to see the places that I'm
writing about. So I'm going to the grave site of
Larry Bird's father, you know, which is on a hill
in dou Boys County, just south of French Lick. I'm
going to a bar called Butchies in do Boys, you know,
(24:23):
where Larry would hang out in the eighties in order
to get away from the tourists and the fans who
might drift down to French Lick to see him. You know,
I'm going to the Little Mansion, and I say little
mansion because it's not really a mansion that Larry builds
initially for his mother in West Baden Springs, just north
(24:44):
of French Lick after he signs with the Celtics. You know,
I'm standing in that driveway. I'm standing on the cracked,
you know, basketball court that Larry poured down in a
grove of trees there and would famously play Magic Johnson
on that court for a Converse commercial in nineteen eighty five.
You know, I want to see these places. I want
(25:05):
to describe what it looks like if the sun is rising,
you know. I want to describe the cracks and the pavement,
you know. So you know that's the kind of stuff
I'm doing when I'm on the ground.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I mean that I'm sick to my stomach and filled
with anxiety thinking about landing in a place like French
Lick or as I've done in other places, and not
really knowing what you're going to get, not knowing if
anyone is going to talk to you. This is very
(25:37):
inside book writing, but I also think it's relevant for
broader context.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
We're talking about just how to get shit done when you.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Land on the ground and you're in French Lick and
you're in that best Western are you like immediately getting
out on the town, trying to be at the bars,
at the restaurants, wherever are you texting people like how
are you making yourself a presence? And how anxious are
(26:09):
you that? Holy shit, I signed a book deal. I
got to deliver this book and nobody will talk to me.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
So true.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
I mean, let's talk about something that really matters to
Chad here, Simon the anxiety of having a book deal
and not knowing where it's going. I mean, that is
that's some real That's some real stuff, people, that's the
real stuff. And your wife doesn't want to see you
when you're in that place, your kids don't want to
see the dog doesn't want to see you when you're
(26:38):
in that places. It's all real, right, Chad, Right, I'm
talking real stuff here.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It is, dude.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
My wife and I were going on a trip a
few weeks ago, and you know, I haven't written a
book in fifteen years, and so she remembers sort of
that I used to get at what she calls book brain. Well,
I'm usually a pretty I am on the details, especially
(27:07):
when it comes to organization, household systems, logistics, truly annoying.
And we were at an airport, sitting at a gate
and my name was announced over the loudspeaker because I
left my bag in like where we had bought food
(27:30):
before our flight. And I had been sitting at the
gate for forty five minutes and didn't even notice my
bag was gone. And she looked at me and she goes,
oh shit, I forgot about book brain. Like you just
you're not present in anything there's only one thing you're
thinking about all the time, and it's the book.
Speaker 6 (27:50):
I mean, this is a story I'll tell here and
only on this podcast, only for your listeners.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
I mean, I got two dogs.
Speaker 6 (27:58):
And you know, the dogs need to be walked in
the day, and I work in a home office. You know,
I'm lucky to be able to do that, and you know,
but you know, when you're walking the dogs in the
middle of the day. Even sometimes when I'm listening to
your podcast, while I'm doing it, I'm thinking about my book,
or I'm thinking about the chapter I'm writing, or thinking
about the thing that hasn't the tumblr that hasn't fallen
(28:18):
through yet, right, And sometimes I'll actually curse out loud,
you know, not even knowing that I'm doing it, And
my poor dog will sometimes turn around to me, like, are.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
You okay, buddy, are you okay? This is this is
the world we live in.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
But I mean, back to your question, I mean, you know,
I don't want to paint too dire of of a
portrait here. Certainly, on that first trip to French Lick,
there was a lot unknown. I did have a couple
of footholds, you know, meetings, I had set up. I
wasn't coming in blind. I let the library and the
librarian know I was coming. I wanted access to certain
(28:54):
things that they had there, and only there. Librarians are
your friend, arkavis are your friend, and I reach out
to them like a lifeline in a book writing situation.
But you know, you know, there certainly was anxiety, you know,
And I didn't even know. I mentioned a minute ago
(29:15):
the American Legion Bar in French Like, I didn't know
that existed. I didn't know that's where people hung out.
But once I was in the library and I was
doing the work there in the archive in the back room,
literally on the floor, scanning documents, very glamorous work, you know,
I asked the librarian, Hey, where can I find this
(29:35):
certain person?
Speaker 4 (29:36):
You know? And it was a person who's you know,
old timer.
Speaker 6 (29:40):
Knew Larry's dad had information you know that was maybe
helpful for me. And she said, well, he usually hangs
out at the American Legion Bar. And I said, well
where's that and what time do people go there? And
she said, well, the people are there now, it's like
four thirty and so you know, I will remember, you know,
pulling up outside the American le Jin bar. You know,
(30:01):
this is me, right, this is who I am, and
sitting outside in the car going well, I'm going in.
I guess I'm going in right, And you know, it's
one of those moments where you open the door to
this small little bar and it's like a record scratch
moment where literally everybody stops and turns around is like,
who is this guy?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Right?
Speaker 6 (30:22):
I mean, french Lick is a town of about two
thousand people, seventeen hundred people. Everybody knows who hangs out
at the American Legion Bar. I am not that person.
And so it took me all of you know, from
getting from the door to the bar twelve steps where
I find I had to start introducing myself because people
are like, you don't belong here. But as soon as
(30:43):
I said who I was and what I was working on,
I mean, people were thrilled. They were thrilled you know
that someone was there who was taking an interest, and
they were excited to talk. And I'll be honest, on
every occasion that I've been back in french Lick for reporting,
you know, I go to the American Legion Bar and
and now I don't go necessarily to do reporting, although
(31:05):
when you're there you do meet people. I go because
when I walk in, they know me there now.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Yeah, it's you know for someone like me, I think
of Larry as someone that you know through TikTok or Instagram.
You just see clips and hear stories about players talking
about them. Right, that's the new generation. That's kind of
our intro to Larry Bird. Right, just his whole complex
being cold blooded, just you know, a legendary killer, and
(31:38):
when you talk about sports, you put him on the
pedestal of the guy like Kobe where he's that same
cold blooded type.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
And you know, obviously you dove into it.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
He's obviously a much more complex person obviously, just you know,
people come off he's a super confident. Do that be
people are afraid of? I would just love you to
explain what is his?
Speaker 5 (32:00):
Now? Who is Larry Bird?
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (32:02):
You know those tiktoks and those memes, you know they're accurate.
You know, they capture, they capture who Larry Bird was,
especially as an NBA player, you know, once he got
to the league and established himself there, you know, that's
really where he comes into his own as a trash talker,
you know, and someone who was, to use your term Simon,
(32:25):
a killer.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
But you know that was in him from the start.
Speaker 6 (32:29):
You know, he was he he had that in him
all the way back at Springs Valley High School, you know,
in nineteen seventy three, seventy four.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
He has that in.
Speaker 6 (32:39):
Him, you know, when he shows up at Indiana States
in the summer of nineteen seventy five. But you know,
it's it's a bit of a shallow profile I think
of this man. You know, he he absolutely had confidence
in himself that was unshakable from the start.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
But he was also a sensitive young man.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
You know.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
He he bristled, you know, at people who did and
said small things that rubbed him the wrong way. You know, he,
you know, was honest and admitting later that he would
shut down, you know if he felt someone had slighted him,
wronged him.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
You know, he, you know, I think.
Speaker 6 (33:22):
Struggled to to play well with others and integrate well
with others in situations where he felt uncomfortable. I think
that is absolutely what happened in Bloomington at Indiana University
in the late summer of nineteen seventy four. You know,
as many of your listeners will know, you know, Bird
(33:44):
first signs with Bobby Knight at Indiana, and you know,
people hear that and think, well, well, he must have
been somebody, he must have been great.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
That's not really true.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
You know, Bird was not a first team All State
player in Indiana in nineteen seventy four. In fact, according
to voters in Indiana that year, there were fifteen players
who were better than Larry Bird.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
He makes the state.
Speaker 6 (34:11):
All Star team, which is a big deal in Indiana,
but he only really does so because a columnist in
a little town and southern Indiana really advocates for him.
And when he makes that team, he hardly plays, which
infuriates him. And so when he shows up in Bloomington
in late August seventy four, he's not a big deal.
He's not a big star. And that Indiana team is
(34:35):
truly great. You know, they're going to win, They're going
to have an undefeated season one year later without Larry,
that's how good they are. And so when Larry shows
up there, they don't care about him. You know, they
treat him like every other freshman, especially a freshman from
a little town and a little school that nobody's heard of.
And you know, I don't think anything nefarious happens while
(34:58):
Larry's you know, Aaron Bloomington for twenty three twenty one days.
I just I don't think he can handle that, which
is why he leaves and goes home.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Do you feel like Larry Bird today?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
You mentioned the slights, you mentioned the sensitivities.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
He refused to speak to the.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Media several times. You've mentioned his father a couple times.
You know, his father committed suicide and that was not
and Larry Bird had a kid early in his life.
I think he was eighteen nineteen and was married. These
were things that were not well known, but reporters found
them out and then wrote about them.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
How do you think a Larry Bird.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Of today manages the storm of social media, of NonStop attention.
Does Larry Bird have a chance to become Larry Bird
under circumstances like today?
Speaker 4 (36:00):
You know, you're right, Chad.
Speaker 6 (36:02):
In the nineteen seventies he had these these secrets, if
you will, you know, in his closet. And I want
to be clear, right, I just wrote a book about
Pete Rose, who had real problems in his past. You know,
real controversies, lies about terrible things, right, That is not
the Larry Bird story. But he has these things, you know,
you mention it, his his father commits suicide.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
This is a real trauma.
Speaker 6 (36:27):
They don't use that word in nineteen seventy five, but
that's what that is, right, We know that.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
Now it is a trauma.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
You know, he marries young, as a lot of you know,
kids from small towns did in the nineteen seventies. That
does not end well, you know. And you know the
press in Tara Hote, you know, they know these stories
in seventy five, seventy six, seventy seven, they know them
and they don't write about them.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
You know.
Speaker 6 (36:53):
It's one of those classic things where the press knows
things that they're not, you know, revealing to the fans,
to the public, to the readers. But from the moment
that Larry hits the cover of Sports Illustrated and in
November of seventy seven, you know, he is now you know,
fair game, you know to the national media, and you
know it's a great story. There's a reason why Sports
(37:15):
Illustrated is coming in eight weeks later to write a
massive profile on him, because this is an impossible story.
This never should have happened. But when they do show
up of course, they want to do the kind of
work that we do. You know, they want to tell
his backstory.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
And you know, I.
Speaker 6 (37:32):
Interviewed almost every reporter who crossed paths with Bird in
a meaningful way in the seventies. I think talking to
the media who cover someone is a really useful thing.
And one of them was the Sports Illustrated writer that
some of you will know, certainly, Chad, you'll know Larry Keith.
Larry Keith a longtime writer for Sports Illustrated. And you know,
(37:55):
Larry was a huge deal in seventy seven seventy eight,
one of the best writers in the country, big name.
He shows up in Terre Haute in January of seventy
eight and he makes a mistake. You know, he tells
Bird that he's there to write us a profile of
him and show that he's more than just a basketball player.
And the moment that Keith says that, it's just like
(38:17):
a light switch, you know, Bird goes dark, just shuts down,
and so Keith has to do that week sort of
what I had to do in a lot of ways.
You know, he's got to go interview everybody else about Larry. Okay,
Larry's not going to talk to him, but he's got
this job to do. What's how's he going to tell
this story? So he's talking to people in French lick.
(38:37):
He's you know, the first who sort of breaks news
about you know, Larry's past. And you know, in a
lot of ways, Larry's grown up. And he said that himself.
You know, he's matured obviously a lot none of us
are who we were when we were eighteen nineteen years old.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
You know.
Speaker 6 (38:57):
And Larry's done today what he wanted to do in
seventy seven, seventy eight, seventy nine. You know, he's finally disappeared.
You know, he doesn't engage, He isn't on social media,
and and you know, based on the people that I've interviewed,
and I mean his closest friends, people he's texting right now,
(39:18):
Larry doesn't care, you know, what people are saying are
doing about him and I and I think that's that's
there's something admirable about that.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
What I should have asked you this in the beginning.
He told me the why. But how did you even
come up with the idea?
Speaker 6 (39:39):
You know, I'd finished the Pete Rose book, I'd finished
Charlie Hustle. It wasn't out yet, you know, and that's
a time when you're you're dreaming up story ideas, you're
dreaming up projects, possibilities. You know, I've got a list
on the wall here of potential things that I might
want to dig into. And you know, I'm from the Midwest.
(39:59):
I'm from Cincinnati. I spent a lot of time back
there during the reporting of Charlie Hustle. And while that
book was in a lot of way is exactly like
all my other books. It's narrative nonfiction, I'm not in it.
It was more personal.
Speaker 5 (40:12):
You know.
Speaker 6 (40:13):
I was back in my home. I was almost writing
a postcard, you know, from my past. And as I
was doing that, I was just thinking about other Midwestern stories.
And you know, someone mentioned to me, oh, you should
do you know, a Larry Bird biography, and I was like,
I don't. I don't want to do a Larry Bird biography,
but you know, I might be interested in just this
(40:36):
little window of time, this this Indiana state story. And
so I just started noodling around on it. I you know,
went down the rabbit hole. And you know, without giving
away too much, there was a scene, a moment in
late March nineteen seventy nine, after the Bird Magic Game,
after this team, this miracle team has returned to Tara
(40:57):
Haute returned home. That happens that when I read it,
I couldn't believe it, and I thought it couldn't be right.
It was just too amazing, it was too great, it
was too cinematic. And once I stumbled onto that sort
of ending, I almost worked in reverse.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Larry doesn't strike me as a guy that likes to
even live in the past, let alone talk about the past.
Did you, like have to reach out to him a
bunch of times? Did he ever respond no or just
never respond? What was what was that interaction?
Speaker 6 (41:28):
Like I did reach out to Larry, you know, I
reached out, you know, through his proper channels, through his agent.
I would say I made three or four official approaches,
you know, and you know the initial reproach was cordial
and no, and it's sort of unraveled from there, you know,
(41:55):
you know, and I don't know why. You know, I
don't know why. You know, this isn't a Pete Rose story,
you know, where someone has real problems that they hid
and lied about. You know, they're didn't I didn't understand
at times the resistance, you know, But once I was
(42:18):
working trying to get in through the front door, I
was also trying to get in through the back door
or the side door, you know.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
As I mentioned, you know, I got.
Speaker 6 (42:26):
Pretty close with Larry's closest friends, and I mean the
people he's in contact with right now. Not Danny Ainge,
not Kevin McHale, you know, but his friends, the people
he hangs out with. Today, they sat down with me,
you know, they granted access to me long interviews, and
so now I'm asking them, hey, can you please help me,
(42:47):
you know, connect with Larry.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
And you know I.
Speaker 6 (42:50):
Want to do that, of course, for all the obvious reasons.
But you know, I've learned over the years through this project,
the Charlie Hustle project, and many that you know, while
it's always helpful, of course, to talk to the subject
of the center of the story, you can sometimes get
a more accurate portrait by talking to twelve, fifteen, twenty five,
(43:12):
one hundred people who were watching the person at the
center of the story. And in this case, you know,
Heartland is more than just a book about Larry Bird.
It is a story of a team, a time, a Place,
Bill Hodge's, Larry's roommates, Larry's teammates, this town, and so
you know, all of those people were speaking to me,
(43:34):
and it was through those interviews that I was able
to tell this story.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Keith O'Brien, you nailed it. It was fantastic, great book.
All the reporting comes out perfectly woven. Love the book, Heartland,
Forgotten Place and Impossible Dream and the Miracle.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Of Larry Bird.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I mean, I think it's fair to say you're the
Dostyevsky of twentieth century sports nonfiction. If The Gambler was
written today, you might be writing it. Keith Obrien, I
hope you sell a million copies, brother a million.
Speaker 6 (44:12):
Thank you so much, Chad, thank you, Simon. It was
so awesome to be back with you guys.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
This has been Sharper Square, part of the Volume podcast network.
Watch or listen on YouTube, but Sharper Square like the video,
Subscribe to the channel, downloads on Spotify, Apple Pods wherever
you get your pods.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Rate review, subscribe. Wevi was five stars. Say whatever you want.
Feedback is a gift. Until next time. I love you,
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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