The Book of Joe: NLCS/ALCS and Joe Maddon's Future

The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon discuss why the top five teams in terms of records are OUT of the playoffs!  How has momentum and the pitch timer already had an impact on the game?  Tom explains what stands out with Phillies/Diamondbacks and Rangers/Astros.  Joe talks about the impact of managers and how they can help or hurt winning a series. Plus, what would it take to get Joe back in the dugout as a manager?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back. It's the latest episode of the
Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci, and of
course Joe Madden and Joe. We've reached the League Championship Series,

(00:25):
so this episode we want to break down both what
happened in the division series and what will happen in
the LCS. How you doing, Joe, Good morning.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm doing well. How about you, sir? I know you're
doing a lot of traveling and not easy but also fun.
I'm in a petition that they start flying you everywhere privately.
Somehow we're going to get that done.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, thanks for that. Hey, listen to what jumps out
of me, Joe. Is the top five teams if you
go strictly by regular season records, they're all out. And
not only did they go out quickly, you know, they
went out winning one game. I'm talking about the Braves,
the Oriole, the Dodgers, the Rays, and the Brewers one

(01:08):
and thirteen this postseason. So we're left with an LCS
with three wildcard teams and the Houston Astros that won
ninety games. Listen, I know there's been some carping out
there from people. People love to complain. We all know that, right,
and now it's like, well, let's do something to advantage

(01:30):
the division winners a little more. Stop it, people, This
is postseason baseball. Nobody complains when you get upsets in
the NCAA tournament or the NFL playoffs, people say, oh,
this is great. Didn't see this coming. What happened was
in the LDS division series. Those games, those series did

(01:50):
not go to the maximum distance, so those teams didn't
get stretched in the first round, and we're able to
bring people back and listen, there's a lot of off days,
as you know, Joe, in the postseason, so I don't
think those teams were as harmed as much because we
didn't have series go the maximum number of games in
the first round. So just stop at people, stop the complaining.
There's nothing wrong with the format. You know, it's going

(02:12):
to change anywhere in a few years when we get
the thirty two teams where you don't have teams sitting around.
But listen, I don't think sitting around for five days
is big deal, Joe. When the other team you're facing
does get extended, has to really use up their pitching
and has to start the next round with their number
three or four against your number one. But we just
didn't get that. So listen, I don't think there's a

(02:33):
huge difference between a ninety win team and a ninety,
say four win team. I think the playoffs have been great.
Stop complaining about the postseason format. The Phillies beat the
Braves three out of four games, fair end square. What
do you got on that, Joe.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, one hundred percent agree. You know the rules of
engagement going into the season. You know how the playoffs
set up. You're happy as can be to get to
the playoffs in the first place, regardless if you won
one hundred games or if you're the last team in there.
What was that maybe the diamond with eighty four wins. Regardless,
you're there, you're you're at the at the tournament, you're
in the dance. You got to invite it to the dance.

(03:10):
So I was, having said all that, there's nothing to change.
I don't believe it's it's it's being done exactly as
it should be done.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
And like I said, you know, you know what's going
on when the season begins. You know what it takes
to get there. Once you get there, you know what
it takes to win. So that's that's even moved to me.
I don't even understand why that would be a consideration.
Everybody wants to attempt at some point to impose their
own methods or wills if they're not getting the conclusions
that they're looking for, it's just just leave it alone.

(03:40):
It's it's very good the way it is. And number two,
it's just serendipitous. I think this year with the wild
Cards kicking buck button, the teams are getting rest and
not I I love getting rest.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
I know.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
I give it a perfect example when we played the
Wildcard game in Cleveland several years ago. I can't remember
the year. I always forget my years on that was
Alex Cobb started it. But we had to beat Toronto
on a Sunday. We had to beat Texas and Texas
on a Monday night just to get to the wild
Card game against Cleveland on a Wednesday. I think it
was to play Boston in the playoffs as a wildcard

(04:15):
as a Alds and were weird beat. I mean, like
you said, your pitching is absolutely destroyed just to get there.
I guess you could say it's somewhat that it speaks
to the depth of your group and they're planning in advance.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Okay, I'll take that.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
I'll take that under advisement to consideration, but I much
prefer getting our rest I do. I just think it
just happened this year this way, and I, like I said,
just you know, the rules will just play it that way.
And yeah, it just happened to turn out one and thirteen.
That's incredible, But that's the way the baseball cookie crumbles sometimes.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, well said Joe. I liked everything you said. And
listen to the purpose of the postseason is not to
rubber stamp the best regular season team, you know as
well as anybody, if not better. It's a different kind
of season. It's played in a different way. You shorten
your rotation, you shorten the guys, you're using your bull
you may do some thing strategically with your offense because
of the urgency. That's different than the regular season. It's

(05:10):
not nineteen sixty eight anymore, folks. We're not trying to
reb snap regular season winners with the World Series, all right.
If you go back the last two years, there's been
nineteen playoffs series. The team that had the fewer wins
in those matchups won twelve of the nineteen series. It's
not unusual, nor should we think it's wrong. So again,

(05:34):
if you hear someone complaining about the format and they
want to come up with their own format to make
things quote unquote better, like you said, Joe, they're essentially
looking for a result that they want, which is, hey,
let's get the better team through the postseason. That's not
what we have. That's not what we've had for years
people have accepted. Now when we get to postseason in sports,

(05:55):
it's about upsets. It's about the possibility that things will
not follow Chuck, and I think baseball fans are totally
cool with that. So again, you hear somebody carping about
the postseason schedule, cover your years, don't listen to them.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
I also think that you're seeing the teams that really
did short up their holes or deficiencies towards the end
of the season when it got to the trade deadline, etc.
Or with they stockpiled leading into it. It was the
young hitter's name for the Rangers that's really shown up
the left end eder Evan Carter. He is impressive.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
They've had this.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
In their back pocket the whole time, knowing that this
guy was going to be available and be impactful when
it got to that point. You know, the trade of
Jordan Montgomery getting Montgomery is another.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Example with Texas. But see why I did.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
I don't even want to send to the radar because
I've always been a fan of this fella.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
So they shored up whatever holes.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
They might have had, and they knew what they had
in their mind league system that was going to come
to bear at the end of the season. Also, that's
going to be very useful. So I think if you
look at the teams that did things like that, and
to a certain extent, I don't even know, like you
can't even say that about necessarily the Diamondbacks. I just
think that the they've they played so well and they
played so badly. It was almost like they were the

(07:07):
tale of two or three teams this year. But they're
playing with a lot of energy and enthusiasm and more
skill than people have given them credit for. Very athletic.
Their pitching has really stepped it up. But they're they're
like they have they're playing like they have nothing to lose,
and that's probably the uh, the real the one component
to their method right now. That's permitting them to be

(07:29):
this good right now. And if they just get to
the Dodgers, they're playing so loosely.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
I mean the camera.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
I love when the camera gets in there a little
bit tight sometimes and you watch, you know, the viscual
reactions of the players, and you can just see how
much fun and the moment these guys are where you
could absolutely see. The Dodgers are pressing, they're expected to win,
and we go again. We uh, we win World War
one World Series over the last how many years and
that was a COVID year, a shortened season. We got
to get this done. We got to get this done.

(07:54):
And the other team says, man, we're just happy to
be here, and they let it loose and a yeah,
we could go. We could make You could talk about
all these different buried reasons and and apply rack channel
to them. But I'm just saying, you got to show
up your holes. You got to figure out whether it's
you might need a pinch runner, you might need another
bullpen dude, or two, you might need a starting pitcher
or two.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
Whatever that might be, because it's showing up. And final
point with I'm sure you're gonna get to the Phillies.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
But god, I mean, it's attitude, brother, attitude. These guys
aren't afraid of anything like the stuff that's really unquantifiable.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
What am I talking about? It?

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Just watch, just feel, just see this. That's why the
Phillies are so good. That's why the Diamondbacks are so
good right now. They got this vibe going on. They
caught a wave and they're not going to give it up.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
I'm glad you brought up Let's start with the d
Backs and the Phillies, Joe, and how they got there
and what we see going forward here. And I think
you do have to start with a Citizens Bank Ballpark.
I mean it is literally, if you go buy all
venues in postseason history, at least twenty games, it's the

(08:59):
toughest place to win a game. I think it's twenty
eight and eleven. Now the Phillies are at home. You
can feel that momentum. And I thought Trey Turner made
a great point that with the pitch timer, especially, momentum
is even more important. Baseball is even more of a
momentum game. With the pitch timer, you can't have these

(09:22):
veteran pitchers literally slow the game down like the way
they used to. As a manager, you better have people
up and ready in the bullpen, quicker with the pitch timer.
That being said, I just think the energy in that
ballpark really does help a kind of a team that
to me, Joe, the Phillies feed off of that energy.
It's a bunch of you know, baseball rats, a bunch
of extroverts on that team who love the attention, who

(09:44):
are going to look for chips to put on their
shoulder and play with them and use energy and emotion
to their advantage. As you know, it can be a
disadvantage if it gets away from you the postseason. We've
seen that happen with some young players. But this Phillies
team feeds off of that. So yes, Arizona's hot Tory
Levello has done a great job with that. They figured

(10:05):
some things out. Brent Strom is a difference maker as
a pitching coach that first round though, you know, you
get the extra off days. I just think that this
Arizona team going up against the Phillies team, which to
me is much deeper in a longer series, that's an
uphill climb for the Diamondbacks. Listen it, They've got this
far can they win, for absolutely, But I just think

(10:28):
the calculus is a little bit different having to play
in Philadelphia, and especially now having your depth tested in
a longer series to meet Philadelphia and Rob Thompson, they
have more better choices.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
I agree. I agree with all that.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
And just to speak to your what you had mentioned
earlier playing the playoff games, we played the World Series
there in two thousand and eight with the Rays, and
I don't think we blust both of our games there,
and especially the one that was delayed forever that eventually
came back and concluded and lost.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
But it is it's a different it's different. It's different.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
The the ballparks different in a sense the way it
kind of envelops you and the fans themselves as And
I'm from near there in Pennsylvania. You're not far away yourself.
And I've been down there. I've sat in the stands.
I know what's going on, and and you know, these
these folks really are rallying around their group right now.
They have energized and there's no question and like you said,
the players themselves, they're there, who they are, their makeup,

(11:26):
how they respond, they love, they love playing the crowd.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
All of that.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Stuff absolutely morphs into this entire atmosphere attitude that's that's
been developed in that city over time. The thing I'm
curious about, and I don't that's it's it's hard to
we'd have to almost ask Dave Nebrawski whatever. But did
they really bear down on makeup like when you're making that.
I mean, I know so many times as a scout

(11:49):
and a minor league manager, when you talk about a player,
when you talk about Tom Berducci, a lot of it
comes out to what do you think about his makeup?
How's he going to handle different difficult situation, how does
he handle failure? What do you think about him in
Citizens Bank Ball Park, in a playoff game, in a World
Series moment? How do you think he's going to react
to something like that? We just to have those kinds
of conversations, and it just seems to me that they

(12:11):
nailed make up on this group. And that's that's the
part that really attracts my eye to this team. I mean,
I know Schwarbs, of course, I know Nikky Costianos, and
I know Brandon Marsh, I know Lorenz and Michael's there,
but he hasn't played yet.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
There.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
But I know the makeup of these guys, and of
course you know Harper et cetera. Stott start to me
is god, dang, that's that's I don't know where this
guy come from. I don't know who scouted him, but
that's great to me. That's great scouting right there. So
I love watching him play. Bohm is really established. Boom
a couple of years ago, was like ready to be
skewered by the affhilly fans, and he turned it around.

(12:46):
And look at him right now. He's playing to the
crowd like like like.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
A co veteran, you know. And so I that's the
part about this.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Group that is interesting to me and is really good
old old fashioned scouting. I just like the makeup of
this group. And they do they they you run towards
the word pressure, and they do run towards the word expectations.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
And I love that.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
I think, you know, as a fan, if I'm a
baseball fan, I want to watch then till he's played baseball.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
One hundred percent. Joe, I think you have to start
with Bryce Harper when you think about the vibe of
that team and the way that they that they accept pressure,
actually want pressure as Bryce said himself that dude's been
playing with pressure literally his whole life. I mean since
he started playing baseball. He was always the best player
on the field. Of course, I wrote the story about

(13:36):
him where he was on the cover of Sports Illustrated
at the age of fifteen or sixteen. You know, people
out of jealousy when he's competing against them, always wanted
him to fail. The expectations were always sky high. He
never played a game in his life where he just
walked on the baseball field like another player. Everyone always
knew who he was, even if they had not met him.

(13:59):
They had heard of Bryce Harper throughout travel baseball, throughout
the minor leagues. He's played with that pressure, and as
he said, now he doesn't have that pressure anymore. It's
just simply about going out there and playing and winning.
And I think they they follow his lead. Now. You
and I were both on the Phillies before this postseason began.
I said, the key for me with the Phillies, and

(14:19):
I love everything you said about their makeup and it
does show up in a postseason environment. I said, the
key for me was Aaron Nola and boy, you watch
the way he's throwing the ball right now, Joe, They've
got that strong one two punch with Wheeler and Nola.
Give credit Catleb Cotham, the pitching coach. He straightened out
mechanically Nola at the last two starts of the regular season.

(14:40):
He's carried that into the postseason. Listen, you and I,
as I said, we're both on the Phillies before this began,
and they're playing the way that I thought they would play,
maybe even better because now, as you mentioned Nick Castianos,
he's hitting the back half of your lineup. There is
a complete force. So it's a deep lineup. They can

(15:01):
run and Steele bases. Trey Turner is playing out of
his Harper. We know he loves the big spot. But
the big key for me now is they got there
one and two in place and Wheeler and Nola.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
But the other thing absolutely about the pitching. But I
was curious about how they're going to set up the
lineup yesterday because Atlanta had some left handed relievers and
they kind of went left right, left, right, and then
I think it was left right, right left. My point
is it got great balance up and down the line.
If he got marsh hitting eighth and he's turning it up.
I mean, I really love what Brandon's doing right. I'm

(15:33):
very happy for him. This young man. I had him
in Anaheim. He just needed to settle into a couple
of things. When they were making that acquisition, Boa had
called me. Larry asked me about him, and I said,
he just needs more information. All Brandon need is more
Brandon needs was more information. He's got the athleticism. And
my interpretation of him when I first saw him Marshi

(15:53):
with the Angels was that I love the way his
body moves. That's that's that was my first impression of him.
And it just he just glides balanced. It's just very
athletic about him. So he's at them. And then Nikki
Castellanos only hits lines and gaps. That was again my
interpretation of him. It's incredible. When he swings the bat,
the ball goes on either line or an either gap.

(16:15):
Normally it's he stationed the ball so long and he
turned around one hundred mile an hour fastball elevated yesterday elevated,
and that ball was crushed. But the moment he hit it,
obviously he could see his reaction and like I said, Stott,
I in real Mudo's it was being real Mudo right now.
This guy's caught a lot this year. But this guy,
he's a cornerstone of any organization or group. He's a

(16:38):
throwback catcher and I like him a lot. So yeah,
you know, I'm going on and on about him, but
I do.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
I believe all of that. They're bouncing.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
The lineup is so good, and I'm always going to
be curious because I like what their lefties.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Normally, I like to.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Had two rightings behind a significant lefty to try to
protect him, but they didn't.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
They went away from that.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Part of it is their lefties hit lefties too. They're
not afraid of their lefties on lefties, and that's been
nurtured through the entire season. We talked about, you know,
the platoon advantage stuff, which really, you know, resonates nicely
and it sounds very good. But I'll tell you what
if you get like everyday guys that can go out
there left on left and show up and hold their
own and actually play really well. When he gets at

(17:17):
this time of the year, when the other team forces
you to turn your lineup over, they make you pinch
it earlier because of the game situation, I got to
go to my platoon guy. Then that sets up into
your advantage, and the latter part of the game is
you know, of course this guy's not going to come
through all the time, so you can flip them and
get back to advantage you based on the latter part
of the game and your relief pitcher. So all this

(17:37):
stuff is playing because the Phillies go out there, they.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
Play their guys.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
The guys have confidence against lefties two and that's the
difference maker for me.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Hey Joe, watching Game four of the NLDS Philly closes
it out against Atlanta and the way it ended, I
couldn't help but flash back to Game seven of the
twenty sixteen World Series because the game came down to
Matt Strom, who had Tuesdays all year pitching to Von
griss basically was in Triple A all year, and of
course Game seven and twenty sixteen was like Montgomery with

(18:10):
no saves in his career pitching to Michael Martinez. Martinez
was in the game because Terry Francona went to his
bench to take Coco Crisp out of the game in
a possible sack fly situation, and grissom was in the
game because Brian Snigger started running through his bench to
try to get this game tied, and it went back
to a decision he had. Curious to your take on this,

(18:33):
He had Michael Harris up against a struggling Jose Alvarado
and chose to hit Travis Darnault, which brought Craig Kimbrel
into the game, and Darnel wounded up getting a walk,
and then Kimberle got Acunya. By the way, Acunya had
three pitches to hit in that bet. He did not
have a good series. Kimberle left a couple of fastballs
over the middle. He's actually a little bit late on those,

(18:55):
but that's how Grissom wound up getting in as kind
of the twenty sixth man to end the game there.
To me, it was a questionable call. Alva was struggling.
You knew if you brought Darnaud up to hit for
Michael Harris that you were going to get right on
right Kimberle on Darnault. But I understand the thinking that
he thought that was his opportunity right there, and he

(19:16):
kind of damned the ninth inning because you don't know
what's going to come at that point.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
Well, I'm betting, I'm betting dollars to donuts that he
like Darnaul and Kimberle much better than he liked Harris
and Alvarado, because Harris has been struggling offensively, there's no question.
And Darnaul, I mean, this guy hits home runs in
the postseason, and Kimberle's not sharp. I mean, I watched
him yesterday and I've been watching him. Agreed, He's making
a lot of mistakes. He's pulling a lot of pitches

(19:41):
out of his zone. So I think at that point
that actually wanted Kimberl in the game also, So these
are the kind of things you think about, who's bet
what's the better opportunity is the lefty on our lefty
or yeah, they're going to bring Kimberl in. But I
like Darnell's chances better, right, swinging the bat better, and
the guy likes hit home runs this time of the year.
And then furthermore, the people that right after him, the

(20:04):
pinch hitter, here comes a kuna and he swung at
a pitch underneath him.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
I couldn't believe that one. I don't even know what
that was A.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Changeable whatever they Kimber threw that or a backdoor like
a backup breaking ball.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
That was a backup breaking ball, exactly, a front door
breaking ball that he just he lost, you slipped out
of his hand and yeah, that was well out of
his own.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
That was the pitch I mean, I mean, although he
almost hit went out anyway, but that was the pitch
because otherwise he gets it, he gets a much better count.
He got a much more aggressive posture at that point
of speaking of a kuna and that that that pitch
to me kind of turned it around because he actually
looked like like non plus a little bit uh a
kuna did after that swing. So I would have done
the same thing. I think Snid did the right thing.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Well, we talked to you
talked about Brandon Marsh and only needed some for some information.
Well he's got well, I think one of the best
hitting coaches in baseball there with the Phillies and Kevin Long.
Kevin Long is a difference maker. Brent Strom pitching goes
for Arizona Diamondbacks is a difference. I mean, you get
to this part of the season, folks, and it is

(21:07):
a lot about getting your guys ready having a game plan,
whether it's on the mound or in the batter's box,
and it's gonna be fascinating to watch those two essentially
go at it. You think about the Phillies offense against
Arizona's pitching staff. Those two guys have been around the
block a couple of times, know what they're doing. And
when we get back, I want to tell you about

(21:27):
a difference maker in the American League Championship Series and
it's a player, not a coach. Hey, welcome back to
the Book of Joe podcast. The American League Championship Series.

(21:48):
It's all Texas, Texas State Championship besides the American League
Penance on the line. It's the Rangers and the Astros.
And I mentioned difference makers. Joe and I do believe
that we get to this time of year and there's
so much information at the coaches have so much of
an impact on what happened. You see a lot of conversations.

(22:09):
You see it thurny regular season, but especially in the postseason.
You'll see Brent Strom go out to the pitching mound
whenever it's a critical spot in the game, and he
will run those conversations. That's not a listening session for
that coach. And the same with Kevin Long on the
other side. You look at the left handed hitters especially,
He's always been great with left handed hitters, and that's
that's Philly's DNA. As you said, lefties don't bother their

(22:32):
lefties hitters in the ALCS. I'm looking at Martin Maldonado.
I mean, it's amazing what he does in the course
of a game to run a game from behind the plate.
You will not see Euston pitchers shake him. They have
total trust in what he does behind the plate. And
I'm telling you there's nobody in baseball history, nobody who

(22:55):
has had as many at bats as Martin Maldonado in
his career and been such a poor hitter in terms
of batting average. And the reason for that is they
keep running his name out there in the lineup because
he's a difference maker behind the plate. I'm telling you,
I've seen it so many series.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Joe.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
I talked to Carlos Correa after the Twins were eliminated,
and when I asked him, why is this team the
astro is so difficult to take out? Obviously, he spent,
you know, the last six seven years with the Astros.
He said, it's Martine Maldonado. He said, I hate to
give him credit because I know you don't going to
see and talk to him in the offseason and he's
going to rub it in. But he's the difference. He

(23:34):
exposes weaknesses of hitters like nobody else. He pitches backwards
in key spots. And think about this, Joe. The last
pitch a game for the alec Or al Ds, full
count to Max Kepler with Carlos Correa sitting on deck,
Presley did not want to get to Correa. He said

(23:54):
that after the game, all of us watching the game
new that, And it's a full count. He just struck
out two hitters on full, full count breaking pitches, and
it's Max Kepler at a full count. During up to that
point in the year, Presley had thrown breaking balls eighty
five percent of the time that he gets to a
full count. So what does he throw? Fastball? Kepler absolutely

(24:16):
locked up, frozen, called strike three. That's Martine Maldonado.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, you're one hundred percent right about that. And that's
just paying attention. That's that's eyeballs, that's feel I saw
the exact same thing, and I said, damn, that was
good because that the hitter had no chance at that
particular juncture. Yeah, Maldonado is absolutely a throwback kind of
a player catcher. He's the rocking chair for that entire

(24:42):
entire pitching staff. If he's back there, they feel good
about it. You don't care what he does offensively.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
He'll come up with a big hit now and then,
but that's the last thing you're concerned about. And I
love that.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
I love that that he still fits in and that
he's still relevant in our game today. On the other side,
Real Mudo is kind of like that too, although Real
Modo is going to supply more offense and he could run,
uh part of this guy's packages that he he could.
He is a very good runner. And how about the
kid now with the Diamondbacks, the catcher.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Gabby Montero. Yeah, my goodness, I've been He is impressive
on both sides.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, I've been watching this because you know, I didn't
get the chance to see them a lot this year,
and uh, that kid provides a lot of energy and
he could really play for you know, for me, for
us we had I was always I've always been a wilsontrarassman.
I always thought we should plug into him and Wilson, uh,
you know, still learning possibly how to call the game
a little bit better.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
But he's gotten better at that too.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
But I just like the catching position to plug into
when you have when you have a pertinent catcher, somebody
that that for me, that would mean that he has
to have or be more concerned about his pitching staff
than he.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Is concerned about himself and his hitting.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
When you get that guy behind the plate, that's when
your pitching staff could really take off and become a
dominator dynamic. And I've always I've had really good catching
prospects historically, uh, every organization and I've been in, whether
it's the miners or the major leagues, But if they're
not committed to that pitching staff, it's somehow there's just

(26:11):
a disconnect there and it never really wants to work out.
Pictures when a pitcher as a catcher, and the pitcher
says to you and he really means that he really
likes throwing to you, and I want to throw to you,
or he declares I want to throw to so and so,
My goodness, there's no higher compliment to a catcher in
baseball that when his pitching staff declares I want him

(26:32):
behind the plate, that there's I don't even know how
you can evaluate that except that you're gonna have a
much better pitching staff. So these guys you're right about Meldonado,
he brings it out. I think real Mooda does. The
young man with the Diamondbacks probably will eventually, and maybe
he's doing it right now. I just haven't watched them enough.
But that catching position is so it's just the quarterback.

(26:54):
Is that the quarterbacks at the middle linebacker. I've always
have a hard time with that because you know it's
you're playing defense, but you're still calling the plays. It's
a combination of both. So you're right on with that
last point. Coaches that make an impact. My first playoff
was in two thousand and two.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
And we're in New York and Mickey Hatcher love love me.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
So Mickey Hatcher, We're in a small coaches room having
our team meeting with the position players, and Mickey can
get really emotional, and he just implored our guys just do.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
One thing, just do one thing only.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
And I'm sitting there listening. I want you to do
one thing, and that's just run hard. Always run hard.
He said, if you do that, you'll never embarrass yourself
and the outcome is going to be good. And I
sat on the floor and I listened to Mickey say that.
And who's been in a lot of different playoffs scenarios,
that one little speech by Mickey I thought was really

(27:49):
helpful to our entire group. And of course that's something
I've carried through with all my managing. But Betty Black
as a pigeon coach, very dynamic. Ron Rennicky is a
third base coach. Wow, Rags did some stuff out there.
People have no idea, And of course Afraido at first
base Grip. We had this little tranulation going on among us.
And yeah, I've always thought that that coaching staff in

(28:11):
two thousand and two really help get that team over
the hump, whereas I've been on some coaching staffs that
could work exactly the opposite and tear it apart.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, a good point. That was an amazing coaching staff,
And of course many of you guys went on to
manage successfully other major league teams. You know, Mardonnado is
going to catch every game Verlander wants to throw to him.
Valdez always throws to him, Javier always throws to him.
Maybe if you get to a game four and Dusty

(28:41):
wants to go with the JP France, you might see
on your Diaz behind the plate, just to give Maldonado
a day because you are looking at three straight games
in the middle of a seven game series. But otherwise,
you know, Dusty, I can't say he took heat for it,
but a lot of Astros fans wanted to see the
kid Diaz behind the plate because he does have some pop.

(29:02):
He's going to be a really good major league player
and catcher, there's no question about it. But he's not
ready to call a major league playoff game above Martin Maldonado.
It's just not there. I mean, you know, he played,
he had got a start as at DH the other day,
one over five with four punch outs. But it's more

(29:23):
about running the pitching staff, and there's no way you're
not going to put Maldonado out there. He's a weapon
behind the plate. So when fans start looking at these numbers,
Joe and they see there's a young offensive player like
Diaz and you want to get you know, a little
more pop in the lineup as opposed to Maldonado, who's
basically a two oh seven career hitter. That's not where

(29:46):
the value is. And you know as a manager, as
a former catcher, what that guy can do for you
behind the plate in a postseason environment, especially, you can't
run away from that. You've got to embrace it.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Be careful if you wish for right. The thing about Moldonado,
you've seen it, and I know I've seen everybody's recognized it.
How he walks out to the mound when he has
to walk out to the mount there's an a severe
calm about him. He's so calm, and it really reeks
of Yaddi Molina what he did with the cardinal pitching stuff.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
And I Alp often thought.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
That Meldonado's kind of patterned himself after Yadi A in
regards to his mannerisms and how he moves, and there's a.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
Calmness about him.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
And for all these people that are clamoring for the
young catcher to play, go ass the pitching staff what
they think. I'm from every starter to the last guy
in the bullpen, and that's what matters the most when
it comes down to the offense. They have eight other
guys that they really need to garner their offense from.
If they have to re live the catcher this one
spot to provide the offense that they need to win

(30:49):
the games, they're missing the point because what he does
in regards to defending against runs from the other team,
run prevention, what he's able to do that, that's that's
the true value is that is that the equivalent of
a two run homer is a you know, blooper derived
with renaissants second and third and two outs.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
What is that? What is it? How do you how
do you quantify that?

Speaker 2 (31:10):
How do you how do you equalize that between what
he can do offensive and what he can do defensively.
That's how I look at it. Well, my catchers aren't
really good offensively. How does he drive in his runs otherwise?
How about balls in the dirt that he blocks? How
about controlling the running game? How about permitting your pitcher
just to worry about the hit or not worrying about
the guy first space because he does such a good job.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
Of throwing and being accurate.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
These are the kind of things that I mean, that's
that's part of my issue. When you're breaking down a game.
Get into it. If you really want to break it down,
get into it. Just because a manager brings in a
relief pitcher and a guy gets a hit doesn't mean
it's a bad decision. How about everything I'm just talking
about there regarding the catcher and why you utilized him,
or the move that you talked about with Harris hitting

(31:53):
and the lefty on the mount and bringing the pinch it,
or why did he do that? What are all the
ancillary components of that that you never even talk about.
That's what it is, and that's why Moldonado is so
important because this guy's just he's just dripping with intangibles.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
Well, let's talk about how Houston can beat Texas, because
you know Texas's path to winning a postseason series is
going to be through their offense. I mean, that is
just a dynamic offense. You mentioned the kid Evan Carter.
To me, that's a lineup changer. I mean, he will
not go outside of the strike zone. But at the
same time, he's selectively aggressive. If you throw a cookie

(32:28):
in there, he's not taking for the sake of taking.
He's he's made that lineup so much deeper. So to me,
it's about controlling Texas's offense. How does Houston do that?
Think about this, and again this goes back to Maldonado.
In the last two years, you're going to see more
fastballs in the postseason than in the regular season. That's
because you're going to see more power relievers in the game,

(32:50):
right They're going to pick up more innings. Managers quicker
to go to those power arms, velocity plays. We get that,
But in each of the last two years, the Astros
actually throw fewer fastballs in the postseason than they do
in the regular season. That's Meldonado working backwards with the
staff that can control the breaking stuff. Watch Verlander pitch.

(33:10):
You know, if you're thinking that's Justin Verlander throwing high
four seemers at ninety seven, you know you're going back
to two thousand and six. That's not Justin Verlander. His
breaking stuff is off the charts good right now, and
he goes to it more than he ever has in
his career. So I expect you're going to see a
ton of breaking stuff against the Texas lineup. This is
what Houston does. They're good at it. It's Maldonado, the

(33:32):
way he calls a game and I know Joe here
on the show. In the past, you've talked a lot
about Corey Seger. Don't throw him a strike, controlling the
Texas lineup starts with Corey Seger, and I'm telling you
he's gonna see a ton of spin in this series.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
Yeah, talking about all that. The thing that stands out
about the Astros to me, I just wrote.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
Down three of their starters, Kyle Dez, Verlander, and Javier
I think all three of these guys have reverse split
in them. I think, like believe it or not, fran Bruvaldez,
I would start more lefties against them. This guy, that
breaking ball underneath his change up and then his elevated
fastball really plays well against righty's bar Lander. Watch how
he gets underneath lefties with that breaking ball that you're
talking about. And Christian Hobber, I know he's getting hit

(34:14):
by lefties this year, but this guy still when he's right,
he's able to elevate and do different things the left
tended hitters. I don't know what got him off of
his game, because when I first saw him, he was
more reversed in straight up I mean, being more conventional.
I would I always pay attention to this with pitching
staffs in lineup construction and moves that you want to
make during the game. So another thing that I think

(34:37):
should be spoken about more readily is that whereas the
conventional pitchers, you know, wrighty on right, you know I
want right he's on my right he's and lefties on
my lefties, sometimes it works the other way. I know
in the last yeison against the Twins, we talked about it.
Ber Lander against a couple of those lefties in that
lineup for the Twins was devastating. They were like one

(34:59):
for fifteen and one for sixteen. You'll remember the names
of the hitters that better than I. But I look
at stuff like that. I like to look at reverse splits.
I think Jordan Montgomery's a guy that can get a
right hand route, no question, as an example. These are
the kind of things that are interesting to me. And
if I could get my when I have reverse split

(35:22):
pitchers against, I really want to pay attention to my
lineup construction at that point is gonna make a big difference.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah, and don't forget we'll probably I would think I
expect to see Max Scherzer in this series for the
Texas Rangers. That's another possible difference maker. Listen, he hasn't
pitched for a while with that strain, the muscle strain,
but he did throw to a live session simulated game
the other day. That tells me he's good to go.
I mean, unless he came out of that session really

(35:50):
feeling totally sore. I just don't see Max with a
possible seven game series lined up here saying no, I
can't go. He's going to take the ball, and then
it's up to Bruce Bochie to decide how he wants
to line him up. To me, Joe, I always look
at game three, your Game three starter, as a huge
pivot point in a seven game series. I know Joe

(36:11):
Torre always talked about this. If you look at umpire rotations,
that's why he puts the crew chief in that spot.
It's a swing game, right the series shifts venues, it's
either tied or one team is fighting for its life
down two to oh. And also typically you'll see the
game three starter come back lined up for a game

(36:32):
seven start. All those things come into play. So Verlander
sureser they start the year with the Mets. Here they
are in the ALCS former teammates, of course, not just
with the Mets, but with the Tigers. It'll be interesting
to see how the rotation is lined up for Bruce
Bochie and the Rangers.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Joe, Yeah, I could see Shreser being the opener in
that game. Really, I don't know how deep that would go,
but if he is able to pitch, just to say,
if he gets stretched out to sixty pitches, maybe seventy five,
I don't know, but that can set him up well
for the next time needed. And it's also going to
tell you a lot regarding where he's at physically.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
So if they're not going.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
To throw him out there unless they think they can
do it, I believe that wholeheartedly. I know Max is
going to say that he can. I didn't see the
bullpen like you talked about, but of course they did,
and they evaluated it very closely. So if he's the
quote unquote opener in that third game, you just ride
him as long as you can and then you just
line it up after that because they'll be coming off

(37:30):
of an off day.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Correct is going to play two games and there's an
off day, is that right?

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Right? That's right, so.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
There'll be a nice bullpen available to them to day
that he pitches. That could be rather interesting and he
could be uplifting, you know, to the Rangers. Not like
they need to be uplifted anywhere than they already have,
but I could see something like that happening. My last point, though,
he came out of the bullpen against US. I'm not
saying a bullpen righty, but he came out of the
bullpen against US in Game five Nationals versus the Cubs.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
In twenty seventeen.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
I think it was right that that knockdown dragon him
out game in Washington and did not perform well.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
We got him.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
I think Addison had a big hit down and left
field line. So there's you know, there's all these different things.
When the guy's out of his comfort zone, he's not right.
And just because his last name is a pedigree attached
to it, it's just you just can't one hundred percent
count on it. But I do think it's fascinating and interesting.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
The game you mentioned in Washington, by the way, that
was a crazy game. If I remember this correctly, it's
the only game in history where there are four ways
of getting on base without putting the ball in play, right,
and it's the only game in history where all four
of those methods happened in a row. He obviously have

(38:42):
a walk, a hit by pitch, catcher's interference, and drop
third strike, oh happened consecutively.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Well, the win was when Hobby's completion of his backswing
hit the catcher's glove right and the ball went back
to the backs up and jury lane didn't see it.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 1 (38:58):
That's it? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah, that was.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
If there's been an instant replay back, then for that
particular play, the outcome could have been different, because we
that was a crazy game. We were playing the infield
in early Hobby made a great play at the plate.
He threw somebody out. I was going back and forth,
back and forth, and that was a good team. That
national team was a really good team. That's I've talked
to you about this before. That might have been the
most incredibly intense game I've had to manage in the play.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
I mean, you know, seven game seven Indians, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
I get that, but this game had something attached to
it that you talk about exhaustion. That was the NLDS
by the time we got to the CS. But against
the Dodgers, we were pretty much our bullpen was exhausted.
I'd used Wayde Davis two plus innings just to get there,
and then we had a medical head to layover in
Albuquerque all night long. And then you go out and

(39:48):
try to beat the Dodgers in LA with full rest.
So all these little answer your components again conspire sometimes
against you. So yeah, rest can be very important.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, and that's why I've really looked forward to this
both LCS is because nobody's really disadvantaged when it comes
to going in there, Like you said, playing a full
compliment of games, going through your bullpen, and it's like,
how are we going to get through the first couple
of games of the LCS. Well, these teams all got
here in short time and with the pitching lined up,
and it's fascinating. We have a final four in which

(40:22):
none of the four teams has won more than ninety games.
It's the first ALCS in which neither team won more
than ninety I'm not sure about the NLCS, but I imagine
it's probably similar to that. But that's a good thing
and it should be really fun. Hey, we're gonna take
a quick break, Joe, and one thing we absolutely need
to talk about when we get to this time of
year in the LCS is the effect of the managers.

(40:45):
We get some real four interesting managers running these games.
We'll talk about that with Joe right after this. Hey,
welcome back to the LCS edition of the Book of
Joe Podcasts. Managers who made it to the final four.

(41:10):
The youngest of them Joe is Tory Lavello at the
age of fifty eight. You've got Rob Thompson at sixty,
Bruce Bochie at sixty eight, Dusty Baker at seventy four.
And this is after the last couple of years watching
you know, Dusty go up against Rob Thompson last year
Dusty and Brian Snicker in his mid sixties the year before.

(41:35):
Look around the game. There's a reason why these guys
are in these spots. The years of experience. You can't
tell me it doesn't matter, especially this time of year.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, listen, you're not going to get an argument from me.
And I'm so happy for all these guys and friends
with all of them.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
They're all really really good at what they do.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
I mean, toy, I had Torio's player with the Angels
when I was a young coach. I got to know
Tory back in the day in the batty cages out
at Genautry Park. Dusty and I have developed a good
relationship over the years based on you know, battling back
and forth obviously, and Robbie Thompson. I was just so
happy that he got that opportunity and he's the perfect

(42:16):
guy for that job. And philid Okay I listened to
him speak, and God, you talk about being able to
disarm immediately. And of course Boach, Boach and I go
way back. I've had some very good run ins with him,
including twenty run to the twenty sixteen World Series and
before and after that. My first time I saw Boach
as a manager was in Riverside. He was managing a

(42:37):
ball and I was roving with the Angels and I
was with Palm Springs playing. Drove over to Riverside and
watched the nurse Boach, Bruce Boch, He's managing the river
Side whatever they were at that time. So all these
guys have they've ridden the buses, you know, I like,
they've ridden the buses, they pulled tarps, they've probably burned
a baseball fielder to it at different points in their ascension.

(42:57):
So I like all that about it, you know, And
I'll always argue in favor of field and experience and
wisdom and whatever you and that blink moment where intuition
takes over and you can make decisions based on all
years of experience. And I think all these guys have that,
and I'll always argue in favor of that. They've seen

(43:21):
so many different situations and they've been through We've talked
about the meetings and evaluations of players, etc. And they're
going to go and they're going to make decisions based
on more human elements more consistently, And to me, that's
exactly the way it needs to be. You need to
utilize all information at your disposal. But at the end
of the day, it's one human versus another human. The

(43:41):
better baseball player making less mistakes or better baseball team
making less mistakes or being prepared in a moment is
going to win, especially when he gets this close. So
happy for all these guys. I'm looking forward to watching them.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, there's not going to be a lot of talk
about scripts when it comes to running games in these
lcs's versus Bochi and Rob Thompson in particular, they run
games similar to way you run games. If there's something
they see in a moment, they're prepared. Listen, I say,
we're not gonna hear about scripts. It doesn't mean you

(44:15):
don't go into a game prepared for scenarios. You do,
but you are not wedded to that script. You know,
as you know more than anybody, things change in the
course of a postseason game, and sometimes they can happen quickly.
You need to adjust. I think these managers do that,
and I think especially Bochie and Thompson are very proactive,

(44:38):
very aggressive when it term in terms of if there
is a matchup that pops up in the six or
seventh inning where they feel like the game is on
the line, they're going to go to their high leverage guys. Now,
you know you need a deeper bullpen to be able
to do that, and they have that, but just sort
of the gumption to say, you know what, this guy
is going to pitch in this spot because I feel

(44:59):
like this is equivalent to an eighth inning, high leverage situation.
They will not hesitate to do that. So it'll be
fascinating to watch these guys run a game. Dusty Baker
all right handed bullpen, A Bray who has just been
unbelievable for him out of his bullpen. I know without
a lefty, you think, well, we are thinking to match
up against Corey. Seeger doesn't matter. I mean a Braillo

(45:21):
is not giving up a run, folks, since the middle
of the summer. Since July, he's throwing a hundred with
a wipeout breaking ball. So this is not your cookie
cutter matchup left on left. You know, let's check the ops's.
These managers know where the holes are in swings, which
guys they trust in certain situations. This is not paint

(45:43):
by numbers managing. We'll be looking at here in the postseason.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Well, yeah, first of all, you start off. You always
go with theory, your theory as you sit down before
the game. For me, it would be in the morning.
I get all my information via PDFs. I sit down,
I map things out, go over different things, go for
the bike ride or whatever, and then you think about
this stuff.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
And then you get to the ball park. Can you
get your lineups?

Speaker 2 (46:05):
And then at that point you I started writing my
matchups down, whether it be blocks where I want different
relief pitchers in different blocks against their offense where I
think they might pinch it, or I might pinch it
for I write these things down on my card in advance.
Stolen the stolen base guys. If there's a hit and
run guy, what council they'd like to go on? I want,
I want to predetermine all this in advance so that

(46:27):
I'm not surprised by anything. So that's it all comes
down to theory. And then like you said, there comes reality,
here comes the game, and everything starts shifting. But but
the fact that you've done all this homework before slows
that moment down.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
Because you've already prepared for this.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
Okay, all of a sudden, you're getting that, and now
it's easier to make that adjustment. Talking about getting your
right relief pictures in high leverage moments earlier in the game, Again,
that has to be thought about in advance. And because
I guess what Turner said is accurate regarding the speed
of the game right now, So you have to really
you have to be in advance of this moment in
order to get that guy on this picture now, I

(47:04):
mean a certain hitter. And again you have to understand,
I mean, you hate hate hate wearing it up a picture,
getting him hot, and then maybe he does it go
in the game. So that's that's the bane of all
managers in bullpens, where you do that and you lose
some utility out of the guy just because he got hot.
He got hot, he didn't get in a game, but
that kind of counts almost as though he did. And

(47:26):
so you're trying to be ready but also avoid that
particular moment. It used to happen more with matchup left
handed pictures. I think lefties used to get abused more
because you're getting them ready, getting them ready for this
moment against the left handed hitter pom maybe a double
play happens to hit her before sit the guy down,
or maybe something happens and the game blows open a
little bit on the previous hitter, send him back down,
or the end he gets over this gets over with

(47:47):
the previous hitter, sit him back down. So these are
the kind of things that you really have to stay
on top of an advance, but you're also concerned about
getting guys hot and then sitting them down. Last point,
just talking about Astro's Alrighty's I think we went through
that too for a bit with the Angels, although if
shown Waits adventure got to the bullpen. When you have

(48:09):
reverse guys and a break, you don't care who's hitting.
It doesn't matter right he left the switch it, it doesn't matter.
This guy's got that kind of.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Stuff that beats both right and left handed hitters.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
And when you get righty's that beat lefties too. I'm
always you're looking for neutral guys. What you're really looking
for if you look at all the statistical information, look
at the sheet, the statistical sheet, and you're looking for
a relief picture regardless if he's right or left handed,
that the numbers are kind of equally balanced on both sides,
and that's the guy those If you could get a
bullpen full of those dudes, man, you're not going to
wear anybody out.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
You're gonna be able to match it up.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Easier, get some you get guys up without any concern
because if this pops, regardless of who they sent up there.
I feel pretty good about this. So when you're when
you're putting your team together in the off season, and
the guys you're looking forward to build a cachet with
them would be neutral relief pictures. Second, I would take
the reverse guy. The specialists really gone kind of like

(49:02):
to the wayside based on the three batter minimum. So
these are the kind of things that I look to
prepare for before the game, and theory and reality obviously
are two different things.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah, to me, the big matchup, Joe is a Brew
on Seeger. That's the key matchup to watching that series
in the ALCS. I just think the way a bra
is throwing the ball right now. I like the Astros
bullpen in general. In the first round. They allowed the
Twins a one point eighty six batting average from the
seventh inning on, and he certainly certainly saw that in

(49:35):
the clinching game where the Twins just had trouble even
getting the ball in play against neris a braw and pressley.
I think there's an edge there for Houston. The other
thing I like here, Joe is that when any of
these managers sits in that postgame conference room and explains
a move, you as a fan, should feel really confident
that he's telling you the truth about a move that

(49:58):
he made, that he in the course of the heat
of the moment the manager made them, and not somebody
wearing a polo shirt upstairs, because that happens way too much.
And you know, I didn't like it with John Schneider
taking Barrios out of that game when they had a
script to go to the lefty Kakuchi to flip the
Minnesota lineup in the wildcard round. I didn't like when

(50:21):
Ross Atkins the GM came out and basically, you know,
didn't take responsibility. I mean to me, leadership also means
putting people in position to lead and empowering them. John
Schneider is a young manager, right if you're a front office,
you have to empower him to make decisions in the
course of the game. And you could sit there as
a GM and you could say, you know what, we

(50:42):
don't tell our manager what to do. And you could
say that and that would literally be true. But if
you're putting thoughts in his head and giving him information,
and this guy is not an established big league manager,
what is he going to do. The path of least
resistance is what he's going to choose. He's going to
speak to in the heat of the moment, the ideas

(51:02):
that were put into a head by the information you're
giving him as his boss. And so I tell trying
to tell fans all the time when you're second guessing
the manager. Most of the times in the big leagues
these days, you're second guessing the front office. Don't lay
it on the manager. Don't always put it on Dave
Roberts if he's taking his picture out of the game
in the fourth inning. So I think I feel good

(51:25):
in this situation with these four managers that if they
make a move, they're doing it based on their years
of experience in the game and what they're seeing at
that moment.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, I mean, I'll give you an amen on that one.
But also to just try to complete the thought. Yeah,
all these guys want information, but there's always been information.
We said what we called an advanced scout, and the
advanced scout would go out in advance of the team
that you're going to play, and he would compile information
regarding their hitters, what do you want to play people

(51:56):
on defense, how do you attack their pitchers?

Speaker 3 (51:59):
If there's any signs you could pick up. You've always
had information.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Now is that you can accumulate more because now every game,
every team, every game is being tracked. So you got
this bank of stuff where before it was maybe not
as exact, it was more observational as opposed to GPS.
Good and at this time of the year, and when
he got to the playoffs, they had more than one
guy covering each team, so they try to split the responsibilities.

(52:25):
They would report back, they'd come back to the city
and they would sit there with the manager and the
coaching staff and say, this is what I saw. And
when the coaching staff would have the meeting with the players,
who remember these advanced scouts where if they could be
there at that time, or at least one of them
or at least on the phone, would sit there to
support if there was anything that they've forgotten about whatever.

(52:46):
I love that method. I do love that method. I'm
not saying I don't like the method of accumulating information
via video or just a little marks data whatever. I
like that too, because again, it could be more accurate
when it comes to what you're talking about. However, it
just comes down to how is it dispensed among the group.
So you give information to coaches and managers, absolutely, give us,

(53:09):
give us as.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
Much as you got. We'll take it.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
We want it, we want it, we want to work,
we want to work in conjunction with all the analytical
groups we do. But then there's at some point we
got to say thank you and we'll see tomorrow after
you've accumulated more information regarding tomorrow's game. But to to
stand there and just to kind of dictate strategy to
you as the manager, again, it only serves the confuse.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
I promise enough. The manager asks that, Like.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
If I'm the man and I you know, you said
some different things to me, and I say, okay, Now
give them a scenario like okay, we get to this
particular juncture in the game and it comes like this,
the situation you're talking about Alvarado and Harris hitting and
you know the potential for pinchionting. Do you have any
suggestions there should we get should we get Kimberle in
the game, or do you like Alvarado facing a left tender?
As an example, if I ask that question, I don't

(54:01):
want them to tell me that unilaterally. I want to
weigh to Let me ask the question, let the coach
ask the question, and then and then tell us what
you think God to me is the right way to
do this. But to constantly fill your put your thoughts
in the head of whomever. Last point unless and again
this has got to be like really delicate.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
But you have a great.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
Relationship as a manager who the members given you the information,
and then you you're you're more at ease with this
person making suggestions to you, but you know it's a suggestion,
and you know it's not one of those things I
can ed it like you got to do this, and
like you said, then a young manager is going to
want to do this because he doesn't want to disappoint,
doesn't want to do something wrong. I don't want to

(54:42):
make a mistake. I don't want to have to answer
to this. It doesn't and it's not even answering to
the public. Don't want to answer to people upstairs. This
is the tricky part about all this. So information's always
been gathered. We didn't call it analytics. We called it
advanced scouting.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
Now they call it analytics. It can be more precise.
I understand that. However, it's kind of the same thing.
And please stop calling a slur of the sweeper.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
I've actually come around on that. I'm okay with it
because a lot of these pictures they want their pitches
to be called the sweeper. So, but I think Joe,
the bigger point here is we're looking at a final
four here in Major League Baseball, where it's been reinforced
that information is great. Knowledge is great, but it's even

(55:30):
better when it's combined with wisdom. And I use that
distinction all the time, that there is a huge distinction
between knowledge and wisdom, and they're not competing forces, they're
complementary forces. And why wouldn't you want both at your disposal.
It's kind of like you as a manager, Joe. I

(55:50):
know you've always said this, you want as much information
as possible, and this is what we're talking about here.
Wisdom is a piece of information. It's a piece of
the decision making tree here. And I think having these
four managers remaining here in Major League Baseball and as
we've seen the last couple of years, is a reminder
that that is valuable, that it matters, and that leads

(56:13):
me and I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you
about this. You know, stories popped up about your interest
and getting back to the dugout. We do have certain
jobs available. Not sure what's happening here with them, Joe,
how far along teams are, But why don't you just
tell our listeners here of your interest in getting back
into the dugout.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
Oh? You know, I've believe me. Man.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
I've sat and I'm watching these games like we're talking about,
and I've really done a lot of deep reflection on
all this stuff and what I like to get back
into Doug. I would, but it's got to be the
right marriage. It's like anything else. It's got to be
a group that I would be compatible with that understands
that absolutely. Gosh, I was like at the forefront of

(56:59):
all the analytical movement. I want information, absolutely, but I
also want to be impact. I want I want the
ability to do what I wanted, but what I think
is the right thing to do in a moment. I
want to be able to build the philosophy within the
clubhouse and within the team on the field. I want
that autonomy to be everything that I've learned over the

(57:21):
last I don't know how many every years I've been
doing this. But I do want collaboration. I do want cooperation.
I've always been about that one hundred percent. But when
it comes to the day of the game, when it
comes to the actual game, the less noise, the better
to be permitted to work among the coaching staff, the
players and just kind of like, for lack of better term,

(57:44):
do your thing, because what happens is when you get
too many folks wanting to be part of the recipe. Again,
the too many chefs thing, it just confuses, It does
not clarify. It confuses when there's too many voices wanting
to be part of the decision making process. So, yes,
I'd like to do it. I'd love to do it

(58:06):
with the right dance partner. Absolutely, And again, like I said,
I would want to be empowered to do what I've
learned over the last I don't know, thirty forty years
with total collaboration, cooperation with the front office hundred percent.
But when it comes down to game day and you
get to the ballpark and after I've gotten everything I
needed to be given that then you left your own

(58:28):
devices to interact with your coaching staff, with your players,
with the press, and not always have to ask the
question could I say this to so and so? You
just do it because you've been empowered by the group
to do it and they trust in your judgment to
say the right thing and do the right thing. That's
what I'm looking for.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
Well, again, this is a reinforcement here. That's that's what works.
These final four managers. I think if you watch these games, folks,
and listen, we all love it this time of year.
We all are managers ourselves in our hearts, and we
manage along with them. We love the second guest. It's
part of the fun of the game. But I think
in these these four, with these four managers, you can

(59:08):
feel confident that they're making decisions they truly believe in
and they will all and I mean to a man,
they will all step up and take responsibility whether it works,
but especially if it doesn't work, and they will give
you reasons why they did it. So it's kind of
an old fashioned postseason coming up here, Joe, the LCS

(59:28):
battle of wits. Yeah, that's that's a big part of it.
We talk about matchups, pitching on hitting and vice versa,
and catchers running a game. But eventually, you know, the
managers come to the four. In postseason baseball, there's just
so many decisions. Everything has consequence to it. They can't
help but be part of the story. And that's what
makes baseball so much fun this time of year. Really

(59:50):
looking forward to these lcs's.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Same here and again, maybe like just a time put
a ribbon on all this joy. The word joy, the
word fun, the word pleasure the word, you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Know, the.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Thing that you've been striving to do or be your
entire life, and there's got to be a joy attached
to it. And that's that's that's really what I would
want within this group that I would work for.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Again, it's a joy for the day. This interaction is cooperation,
this collaboration.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Uh that when when somebody walked, if you're if you're
if you're sitting there, if I'm sitting there talking to
Tomboro Ducci in a room, that don't have to like
really be staring at the door as he is going
to walk in, so I have to alter my conversation
when you get to that point and joy subtract it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
That's not leading. Whoever's it's ever caused me to look
at that door.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
You're not leading, You're you're you're attempting to control. I
really love open dialogue as a manager. I want to
be disagreed with. I want to be disagreed with with.
They just give me a good reason why you're disagreeing
with me.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Uh, And I love that. I don't like that. I
love that. I love.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
The altering an alter toinion. And I love a real
good lively discussion based on disagreement and we're all going
to get better by it. And I don't know that
that's happening anymore because there's we used to have meetings. Man,
I'm telling you, brother, no hol's barred. You can see
whatever you want it with respect. I mean, you're not
going to start attacking people. You're just you're just you're

(01:01:23):
you're you're strongly presenting your opinion on something and you're
being heard. I think that's all a real baseball person wants.
The people that I grew up with, they could be
in a room where they just cannot wait to get
to this room with a bunch of other dudes and
discuss what's happening with this organization, with this team, with
these players, and just love every second of it because

(01:01:45):
you don't have to withhold anything from within because you
know it's not going to be taken the wrong way
and somebody's actually gonna have their ears open to listen
to you. That's what I know is missing a lot
of situations and talking to different players, coaches and managers
and even players, and that's what we're seeking. And that's
what if you talk about baseball, folks that have been

(01:02:08):
doing this well. They just seeking that openness, that open,
fraank conversation. That's what you really get somewhere, and that's
how you get better thick skin with respect.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Joe, you always have some great quotations to take us out.
I just wanted to before we get to you throw
one out there that really resonated with me. And it
comes from Twins picture. Pablo Lopez just a fantastic dude.
By the way, besides being a great picture. Pressure is
a privilege. I love that, the simplicity of it and

(01:02:39):
just the way it rings so true this time of year.
Pressure is a privilege. What does that mean? That means
you want the big moment and you use that word joy.
I think about players playing with joy in the heat
of the moment. Not an easy thing to do. But
I when I hear pressure as a privilege, I think
of the two teams that I picked before this tournament

(01:03:02):
began to match up the World Series, and that's Philadelphia
and Houston. It's not to say the other teams don't,
but there's just a little bit more that I see
from those two teams. Battle tested, absolutely, but the DNA
of these teams, you know, the extroverted nature of wanting
the spotlight on them, wanting the pressure of a situation.

(01:03:23):
Pressure is a privilege. That's why I went with Philadelphia
and Houston. And I'm still there, so.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
I'm halfway there. Actually I had Philadelphia and Baltimore.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
But will, I mean, this is another incredible moment because
again I don't know what Tom's going to ask me
at this particular juncture.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
I didn't know you're going to come up even.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
With the managerial thoughts excuse me, or this Pablo Lopez quote.
But I went with this and it's written down right
here and it comes from Leo Leonardo da Vinci.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
That's crazy. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
I wrote that down about an hour ago, and then
here he comes with the pressure is a privilege quote.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
It's true, man, I have my T shirt. Do simple better.
I always thought that that somewhat rival. Just do it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
And when I thought about that years ago, and I've
always been aware.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Of reduce, reduce, reduce, make.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Things simple so that if you want to present it
to your guys in a hot situation, they can use it.
They cannot use complicated. They cannot use a glut or
a pile of information. They need a simple nugget thought,
So do simple better, or as mister da Vinci said
yours prior. To me, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
And I love that, love that. Joe looking forward to it. Hey, listen,
we'll be back in the course of the LCS is
to dive into what's been happening. I will be on
the Unit Houston Texas series, So for me, you'll get
an inside behind this, his look of what's going on
in the dugouts, in the clubhouses, and with Joe, certainly
you will get a perspective from inside the manager's head

(01:05:12):
and what's going on in these games. He's lived it,
he's done it, he's been there. So stick around. We'll
probably take a look midway through the series at how
we got through the first couple of games, and stick
around with us throughout the postseason. On the book of Joe. Joe,
It's always a privilege. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Same here, brother.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Enjoy the bus rides back in the old Texas League.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Brother, I did it. I did it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Man first front seat on the right, pillows, blankets, air
conditioning cranked up, and a good book.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
On my lap sounds good by me. Take care, it's you, buddy.
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