Agatha All Along

We discuss the newest MCU show on Disney Plus - 'Agatha All Along'


Created by Jac Schaeffer and Starring Kathryn Hahn, Joe Locke & Aubrey Plaza - A spell-bound Agatha Harkness regains freedom thanks to a teen's help. Intrigued by his plea, she embarks on the Witches' Road trials to reclaim her powers and discover the teen's motivations.


What did you think of the show?  Where does it rank in the MCU? Do you like witch stories?


Also - We talk Gu's big Halloween loss & Mermaids


Join the conversation on social media - @MACandGUpodcast

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Mac, great news. The Christmas stuff is up without a
hitch Ooh yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
If you're new to the program, here, I'd like to
introduce you to Goo, who puts up his Christmas tree
the first weekend of November every year.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Just a Christmas girly. What do you want from me?

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Is your topper still the Iron Man?

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yep, it's the Iron Man. But what I'm thinking about
doing this year is, because he has his hand up
like this, I'm gonna cut a hole in his palm
and then stick a Christmas tree light through it like
he's shooting a laser.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Ah. Yes, nice.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Also, so you weren't here the day after Halloween, I
was going to discuss this with you. Then I had
Nick Fryer filling and we had a time. We had
a great time.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Nick Fryar is a man who writes and speaks for
a living, and boy does he have trouble understanding the
English language. He is an interesting fellaw.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Number one, he is my favorite character on the Mac
and Goo program, and that includes us. And then two,
so you had so you listened to it right?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Where do you stand on the spelling of key New?
Was I correct?

Speaker 2 (01:08):
I think Friar was right about that, so you could.
I saw your argument, but I think if you just
do K, it might be pronounced more like k e h.
I think if you wanted the key sound, you needed
the k e e or k e.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Y k e hy. I said that as I was thinking,
I know, he should have definitely have said key. I
don't know why he would think ka, But I'll go
ahead and just accept that for what it is. I'll
take the l I will be the bigger man.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yes, to be fair, half the headlines right for me.
I also don't understand when I'm reading them, and then
when I'm saying them out loud, then they sort of
sort of make sense.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Roll with it, baby, Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Also, so
Halloween is over. I lost my costume competition at work,
and I think the thing that we all need to
point to is that I was not doing this for
a demo of men aged thirty five to forty two.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
You gotta know your crowd, gotta know my crowd.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
And went as Casey Jones specifically from the nineteen eighty
seven animated series.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Did You Make the Winners? Platform the top three to no.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
I came nowhere close to it. As a matter of fact, Wow,
I lost to a Ronald McDonald who did a fantastic
job with the whole costume in the face pen. I
lost to someone who just bought a Batman costume. People
know who Batman is? I get it.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Which Batman was?

Speaker 1 (02:25):
He? Roughly he was Robert Pattinson.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Oh so a real darkish.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, the dark one. And he did the eye makeup.
So credit there, I'll give him credit for that. And
then a team of eight one third place, and I
would assume that they all voted for themselves.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
A team of eight, Yes, well, I do get I
appreciate the coordination of eight people on the same page. However,
it's kind of cheating.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Well, yes, And I would also think that you would
do the old Hey, if you vote for me, I'll
vote for you, and then you still vote for yourself,
right right? Have you ever voted? I know you've played
on teams, You've you've done sports.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Did you ever vote yourself as captain?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
No? I don't think I ever cared enough to be
officially named as a captain. I think I was. I
would speak up every now and then, but I was
more of a lead by example type of guy. Then
I think I'm more of a vocal type of leader.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
You're a real Jason Tatum always but voting for yourself.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
And I remember one specific kid that did this for
the baseball team. Uh, it makes you a real fucking asshole,
that's what it does.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
So also with my Halloween costume, I put it on
at my house before, you know, leaving for work, and
my wife said to me, I have no idea what
you're supposed to be, which should have been an early
sign not to do it.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, being that the person you've spent every waking day
of your.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Life decade last I don't know, yeah, last decade.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Ten years. If she doesn't recognize your Casey Jones, then
I'm not sure anyone you work with will. So what
did you get for? Like?

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Did people ask you? What did I get for? What
did I get for the last two I got nothing?
Oh ah, I got spooky Golfer I got Someone asked
me Fellows from Street Fighter? Oh I got someone asked
me if I was the if I was the Sportsman

(04:19):
or something like that from DC Comics. I can't think
of what the name is, but there was a character
that's kind of like Casey Jones.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Buttles now technically a part of DC.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
No there, so they're still idw It's a whole different thing.
But also I got a lot of people just having
no idea. And then I was like, all right, no
one knows, Like less than twenty percent of my co
workers knew who I was.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, that's not great, No, and that's on me. That's like,
you know, you're thinking you've got a great joke and
then telling someone, then you got to explain the joke
because they don't laugh.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
And that was the whole thing too, is that when
someone said to me, oh, what are you, I would
say I'm not going to answer. You have to figure
it out. And if you don't know, I didn't do
my job, do some homework. One good, three, Yeah, jobs three,

(05:16):
King of Queen MARYL.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
Street entry go and I'm Max and we are the
Mac and Goo program.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
We are and down down down the road down, which
is Riches Road. Good.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
We are a couple of hashtag agathoughts. That's right, I'm
stealing that from screen crush.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
I don't like that one.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Go ahead thoughts for Agatha. All along we are discussing,
if it wasn't clear already, the latest entry into the
Marvel Cinematic Universe, Agatha all along. This is the forty
fourth entry overall into the MCU. It's a lot, but
forty forty fifth for us because we were splitting the

(06:05):
two seasons of Loki. Uh so that's thirty four movies
and eleven seasons of television.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Go, it's a lot.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
It's a lot. It's a lot. And when we got
to endgame, I think that was like twenty one or
something like that or close to that.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, I like double that now. Yeah, sort of sort
of crazy. It's like rabbits.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
It's it's been a long whine.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Road.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Was this song the song that you're singing right now,
the Witches Road? Did you find it to be an earworm?

Speaker 2 (06:37):
I was actually singing the Long and Winding Road, but
the Beatles.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
There they're doing Long and Winding Witching Road.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
I would say, Uh, it's sort of caught on to
me by the end, especially after the finale when you
when it was there's a bit of a thing there. Yeah,
I kind of liked it by the end, didn't care
for it for the most part, and then by the
end it wrote me in so yes, a bit of
an airworm.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
May I pay the show a compliment. Sure, Sure, I
think it's different enough from the other Marvel properties.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
I think what really helps this show was a low
bar for most people going in and go speaking to
that point, and I was gonna make this point in
a few minutes. I think what I'm discovering about myself. Yes,
as an MCU fan for the last I don't know, eleven, twelve,
thirteen years, now, I think I'm really starting to like

(07:24):
these sort of like quirky side quests in the MCU.
I've learned to appreciate them for what they are.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Because you've always hated them. You have always been like, Eh,
they're just kicking the can down the road. I don't
want these shit.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well two things, Yeah. The number one, they've sort of
figured out how to use it to round out some
characters that they've introduced and or introduced characters that are
gonna play a role in the future. We think, instead
of sort of taking more known characters and shooting for
the stars, we've seen that really not work. However, you know,
Loki season one did so, I like, you know, the

(07:59):
downside of this is you get into shit that we
don't care about, like Echo, But this I felt like
did a good job of balancing that we cared enough
about where it was going and we cared enough about
the characters involved, whereas a show like Echo, which I
think was the most recent entry show wise, we just
didn't didn't care anything about that, and so I feel

(08:20):
like this one did that well enough anyways, at least
going into it.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
Echo is a good one to bring up, because I
would say Echo, secret invasion, No it secret war, Sorry,
an invasion. There's a couple here that I would definitely
put below in the I don't care a meter, but
I definitely had that during this show. I definitely had
a lot of moments of just not caring about what

(08:44):
happens on this show.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
I would say the only show going in that I
had lower expectations for were actually two Echo and She Hulk,
and I think very quickly, not very quickly, about three
episodes in, it really wrote me in and I was
really intrigued as to where this show was going. That
definitely helps how I view this show and how I

(09:07):
ended up sort of coming around and really liking this show.
But it's interesting to compare this to a show like
WandaVision by the same creator, Jack Schaeffer where we went
in with the highest of high of expectations and then
and that's sort of what I'm talking about, Like, they're
almost better off coming in with these you know, characters
off to the side and doing something with them instead

(09:28):
of coming in with the Scarlet Witch and kind of
disappointing people then and even though they by the end
of it, these shows might be kind of even for me.
So that's sort of what I'm getting at.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
WandaVision did not disappoint WandaVision was great.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
All right, I mean you were kind of disappointed by it.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
So I was disappointed by the final episode of them
throwing light at each other after having eight episodes of
amazing storytelling. Yeah, I think the finale was a little
bit off. I will also say this is that so
what you want, what you're telling me what you want
is you want Kevin Fige to have a press conference
before all of these shows every season premiere being like,
don't expect too much out of us, guys.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
No, No, I want I think all of these shows
to strive for something like Hawkeye, where it rounds out
a known character that didn't get a ton of screen
time and introduces a new character like Hailey Steinfeld's character,
and that's basically what this show does. And I don't
think we sort of expected this show to do that
going in. Not to get into spoilers, but I think

(10:24):
if if this show, if all these Marvel shows shoot
for something like the Hawkeye formula, I think most of
them are going to work.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah. I definitely want them to go into a season
with a goal, and I think this show did that,
and I think it hit all of its goals. Whether
like I think there were too many episodes. I think
you could have shaved this down a bit.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Oh, I don't know if I you agree.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh. I thought they meandered around the witch's road a bits,
but all to be fair, because I didn't like the
side characters.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
I enjoy the side carriers characters.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
That's because you love witches. You love witch craft.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Love witches or witchcraft? However, the craft is a cinematic class.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Back is boiling up of a witch's brew. Right now?

Speaker 2 (11:07):
You yes, is anti witch, You're out?

Speaker 1 (11:09):
I am anti magic. I think witches are very very boring.
I like magic. I so no because I liked I've
liked a lot of the magic that Doctor Strange did
an Infinity War like he did a bunch of cool tricks.
He didn't do as many of those tricks in Multiverse
of Madness. I was, so you were sitting next to

(11:31):
me during Infinity War the entire time. I'm like, fucking
sick trick. It's a sick trick. This one hundred and
fifty these guys, that's sick trick. Snakes, sick trick.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Good.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yes, long is a TV force. Wait did I finish
my thought? Or do you interrupt me my thought? What
was I talking about?

Speaker 2 (11:47):
It seems like you were meandering.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
I was meandering around the fucking magic road.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, this is a TV fourteen I guess mini series.
I don't think we're getting a second season of this.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Actually, I've seen some talks about possible a second season.
I don't know if it would I think it if
they did a second season, it would be like how
Agatha is to WandaVision Like, it'd be characters from this
show spinning off and all nothing. Hold that thought, How
long I'm gonna forget you? Didn't? I think.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
I think we see I did. Actually, I think we
see you a bit ago. I think we see vision
Quest do for this show? What this show did for WandaVision.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Oh Envision Quest is starting to shoot next year. That
was in the news, which is I think good news.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, I like agree, gou. This is an action adventure, comedy, drama, fantasy,
sci fi. A lot of things going on here, and
they did a decent job doing all sorts of stuff
in there as well. Sub genres. Never heard of either
of these two dark fantasy and supernatural fantasies.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
I've heard of both of those if.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
You're into those. Apparently it's present in this show. Good
There was nine Apple episodes in this totally three hundred
and seven minutes. Taking out the credits and the previews
and whatnot, that's the equivalent of five hours and seven
minutes of content. So this is essentially two movies long,
if not more of content. And now I would agree

(13:12):
that the beginning four episodes of this show have some
fluff in there. I'd have some bore, But once we
get to episode five, I think all the rest is
quite necessary and quite good. In fact, on roddy teazgew
eighty three percent from the critics, eighty two percent from
the audience audience. Score wise, that is tied for the
fifth highest behind Loki Season one, Hawkey, Moonnight, Oddly, WandaVision

(13:38):
fourth at eighty eight percent, and then this Loki Season two, Falcon,
and Winter Soldier all have eighty two. Below this is
Miss Marvel and then a steep drop off to Echo
Secret Invasion in Shee Hulk. On Metacritic, this has a
sixty six, which is seventh best, and that's behind Miss Marvel, WandaVision,
Loki Season one, Falcon, and Winter Soldier, Moonnight See Hulk

(13:59):
tied with Hawkeye for seventh and below it is Loki
Season two, Secret Invasion, and Echo. So the critics and
the audience is telling you this is roughly middle of
the pack for these Marvel shows, and I don't necessarily
disagree with that. I may I probably liked it more
than your average fan, but I think that's that's pretty close. Gou.

(14:20):
I've I mentioned her already. This show is created by
Jack Schaeffer. She's the show runner here, and she was
also the creator and showrunner on WandaVision, which I think
FIGI probably had more to do with than he does
in this. And she was also a writer on the
Black Widow movie. She is not going to be the
showrunner on vision Quest, but I do think she is
gonna have a pretty heavy hand in that as a producer.

(14:42):
We also got three different directors throughout this season, Rachel Goldberg,
Ganja Montero, Hell of a Name, and of course Jack
Schaeffer nine writing credits on the season we don't I'm
not going to run through those synopsis for Agatha all along.
A spellbound Agatha Hartness regains freedom thanks to a team help.
Intrigued by his plea, she embarks on the Witch's road

(15:04):
trials to reclaim her powers and discover the team's motivations. Now,
I think the strength of this show throughout most of it,
especially once you get into the thick of it, is
you don't really know what's coming around the corner, and
so that level of intrigue really keeps you going and
sort of keeps you clicking on that show title every

(15:26):
Wednesday night or Thursday morning, whenever you'd go to watch it.
There's something to be said about the level of intrigue
that the show built.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
I don't know, I think that because it definitely doesn't
have that intrigue that Wanda had, that Loki had. It's
that I think middle of the pack really when it
comes to everything going down. The report card fits the show.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yes, but you're not. It shouldn't have the intrigue of
characters that we watched over a twenty movie run, you
know what I mean. So again, that sort of goes
into the expectation level of this. But then it to me,
the quality in the storytelling quality on your end equals
what those shows gave us. But we had higher expectations

(16:09):
for those shows.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
I'll give the show credit to they had decent reveals,
or that they at least had a reveal at the
end of every episode.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
They had a plethora of reveals, especially in the second
half of the season.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
My issue though, is that after every reveal I'd go, oh, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, I think this is a good issue. I think
there's a good issue on this one. I don't know
if so many people are echoing that same sentiment.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
And while one of the reveals I think has cool
potential moving forward, you kind of have played your hand
with other characters that they need.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Say that again.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
In English. While one character is very cool and there
is some cool stuff they can do with her, you've
already used some of the characters that they would need
for their storylines.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Okay, I see what you're talking about there, but a
larger Marvel Infinity type level of story I get. I'm
picking up what you're putting down there, Goose. Speaking of characters,
this show stars Catherine Hahn as Agatha Harkness. Of course,
we saw her in WandaVision, Joe Locke as the team,
the mysterious.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Team, not just a team, some of some of that when.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
We get the spoilers, Sashier Zamada as Jennifer Kale, Ali
On as Alice Gulliver, Patty Lapone as Lilia Calderu, Deborah
Joe Rupp reprising her role as Missus Hart. We saw
her in Wanda Vision. And then we have Aubrey Plaza
in here is Rio Vidal a new edition. And then
we also get the Salem Seven here that are tied

(17:44):
into Agatha's backstory. And these seven things are vertical, Vertigo, coyote, crow, fox,
al rat, snake. I guess that makes Vertigo the bees
the bees thing we saw, which is I gotta say,
if if there was a little bit of disappointment in
this show, it's that these things are introduced very early

(18:05):
in the season and they don't really end up meaning
anything at all. They were sort of a red herring,
I guess.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Right, But did you really need to pay off to
these or are you happy with where the show took
you instead?

Speaker 2 (18:16):
No, I'm happy with where the show went, but I
also think we probably needed more of some of that
background with Agatha Rio and the sale seven, a little
more fleshing out there, But to that point we already
we got five hours of content as it was Gou.
I'm not gonna speak too much pre spoilers here, but

(18:37):
I just got to say this show ends up serving
as a backdoor pilot for a very notable character in
the comics, not one that I was very aware of,
but I became aware of these last couple of years.
Aubrey Plaza's introduction as this Rio Vidal character is awesome.
She's great in it. It is the perfect character for Aubrey.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Play's practical effects. Too.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Good job, Yes, really really good job. Episodes seven and
eight were awesome, especially episode seven. Episode seven was one
of the better episodes of television I've seen in the
last couple of years, and overall, I enjoyed seven and
a half of the nine episodes. I really enjoyed this
season much more than I anticipated going in, And once again,

(19:19):
I think I'm sort of discovering about myself as an
MCU viewer that I do like these quirky side quests,
not too crazy, not Echo level, but stuff that had
somewhat meaning already built in and then building upon that,
whereas Echo had nothing going in and built nothing on it.
So that's the distinction I want to make there.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
That Go also ruined Kingpin.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Echo did ruin a pretty well liked character, you're.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Correct, and Echo tried some new stuff too. I just
don't think it paid off at all, some of the
stuff in it, not to you know, bash Echo over
and over again. But this show, at least even the
first episode that has a lot of throwaway stuff, there's
a lot of fun in there. Like with the with
the fake show that she believes that she's in, there's
a lot of fun happening there.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Well yeah it's not even it's her life. Yeah, she
didn't even think she was a show that was a
lot and that hearkens back to some of what WandaVision did, right,
So I think if you like that about WandaVision, you
really appreciated that sort of introduction to this show.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Mm hmm, and uh, I don't know, man, I don't
like witches. What are you wanna say?

Speaker 2 (20:25):
You want to get to the nanagon?

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Let's get to the nanagon. Well, what did they use?
What's a spooky shape?

Speaker 2 (20:32):
A pentagon is a spooky pentagon.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
So I guess we had to shave four off of
this then we can add four back on after Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
A pentagon times two minus one.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
There we go. Fun factor? And how fun was this show?
And I guess the fun really goes back and forth
where I love Catherine Han. I don't think she was
in a ton of this show. I she almost seemed
like she didn't want to be there, and that's kind

(21:01):
of what the character's all about. But because she wasn't
that same fun character that we had in Wanda, she
felt different. She felt like a different character. Obviously she's
gone through a lot, but we do learn who she
is more. I don't know, man, I don't think it
was that fun. Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
I couldn't disagree with you. More. I felt like Catherine
Han and Aubrey Plaza are like clearly having a blast
playing these characters. And I thought that that really helped
the show.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
And that's all you care about is the people having fun.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
No, I think that it makes it inherently makes the
scenes between those two especially, but in general it makes
the show more fun.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Mac is the biggest fan of Jimmy Fallon because he's
always having fun.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Unless he has those Costco family.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
That is my favorite interview of all time. I am
in a vortex on X right now of just all
Costco and Rizzler stuff where I that's great, it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
I don't come strong, come out strong against random people
on the internet too often, just more notable movie directors.
I wish nothing but the worst on that Costco family.
I want all the bad things to happen.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, but have you heard him say double chunk chocolate cookies?

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Out, that's his catchphrase.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
I hope they stub their toes.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
But I also love the chicken bake that they have
a Costco too. It's a delicious fucking tree. Don't We're
not giving the Costco family any run on this prera.
You know what we actually do in the Antonelli household
is that when we make pizzas, sometimes we make the
Costco Chicken bake pizza where we just take all the
ingredients and turn it into a pie.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Great.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
YEP, it's fresh, it's delicious. Satisfactor, Were you satisfied by
the end of the show. I do want to see
where one of the characters goes, and because of this
one character where it does, another one go and we
can kind of put an end to a couple of
these characters. But we're gonna keep this so much that

(23:00):
you can't say because of spoilers.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
To that point. I really like three plot points or
three paths that this show concludes with and where those
might lead. Although some of the reveals throughout this show
were kind of telegraphed and or sniffed out ahead of time, Yeah,
a couple of them. Were still very satisfied.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
You're all over Reddit. You love Reddit.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Not recently enough for these shows, more so for like
months ahead of movies. Specifically gou The Satisfactor revolving around
Agatha's history with the Witch's Road I thought was awesome,
And I also really liked the shit revolving around Arbrey Plaza's.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Character Bore Omeitor. I fell asleep during five episodes.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, admittedly here the first four episodes have moments of
Bore when they're kind of jumping through these trials, and
it's got a little bit of a Wizard Oz Wizard
of Oz feeling to it. It wasn't the strength of
this show wasn't the first four episodes, That's for sure.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
For the last two episodes, I actually made sure that
I watched them at like eight fifteen at now or
actually no, they come out right at nine, So right
at nine o'clock I watched it. But I watched it
from a folding chair, okay, to make sure I didn't
fall asleep. Sure, I broke out a folding chair and
I sat and watched Agatha.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Those things are impossible to fall asleep.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
You say that, but I could probably fall asleep in one.
Folding chairs have gotten very, very comfortable. The other day,
I was actually telling my wife because we have a
nice folding chair, and I said, Mack and I have
a very very fun joke at trivia that the good
folding chair is an OSHA approved folding chair that we
can stand on. She didn't really laugh, but she thought

(24:35):
it was kind of cute.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, I don't does she even know what OSHA is?

Speaker 1 (24:38):
I actually, I asked her after and she said yes,
And then she explained it to it so she understood
what OSHA was. I think every workplace has OSHA.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
That can't be right.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
I don't know either, Guys, tell us right now, do
you know what OSHA is?

Speaker 2 (24:50):
I think every manual labor institute has OSHA.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Halloween, I like that it was released during the Halloween season.
I'm gonna interpret this differently, so congratulate them, and you
know what to do. They timed it out so the
final two episodes came out on Halloween week.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Knowing what we know now, goo, I actually want to
go back and rewatch the first half of the show
for some of the reveals, to see if I can
pick up on some of the things that are sort
of exposed by the end of this show. And moreover,
I think this show rounds out WandaVision a little bit
more as well. So credit to Jack Schaeffer, that's sure.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Because nothing gets me more frazzled than when a spooky
show goes beyond Halloween. American Horror Story needs to learn
from this. Okay, sure, not that I'll ever watch American
Horror Story ever again, but that first season one of
the best seasons. Amazed, amazing.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
I'll defend that season of television to death.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
Ah, quater World, it's better than water World.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Baby floats. Oh yeah, it floats.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
But it definitely needs like, it needs floaties. I don't
think it can swim on its own.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
I think the second half of the show is a professional,
maybe Olympic level swimmer.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
Oh we start doing this now, Okay, I'll say better.
I would say it has a life vest, not water wings.
I'm not gonna disrespect it.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
I'm not saying the second half of the show is
like Katie Ladecky level, but it swims.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Like I'm not saying that it can do the triple Lindsey,
but it's not. When life gives you plemons, you make plemonade.
Mac and who do you believe made plemonade on this show?

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Good? Patti Lapone was fucking fantastic. She was sort of
a side character amongst this whole thing, but her storyline
in this season of television culminates in maybe the coolest
moment of the season.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Loved that.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Additionally, a more side character and maybe more what plemonade
is talking about is Aubrey Plaza.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
She was great.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Every time she popped up in this show. She really
brought it.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
So both of them, I thought she was a little
Hella esque where she was chewing it up a little
bit too.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
Oh no, she was having more fun than Hella. Hella
was too mean.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
You should have had that in the fun factor. I
can't give it to Joe Locke, right, he's too much
of a main character.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
So let's get to that. Let's get to Credit Union.
We can talk about Joe Locke. Although let me do,
let me do pants, steady pants tent.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
City really fine, go ahead, pants, Now what do you got?

Speaker 2 (27:27):
Episode seven, fantastic episode of television. Again, one of the
better episodes television I've watched in the last couple of years.
I thought it was phenomenal. And the way that character
and that storyline comes together in that awesome moment in
the finale of that or the final moment of that
episode was fucking great.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
Because I think that Joe Locke, let's get to max
Credit Union now, I think that he's great in this. Granted,
I think that he's now going up against a bit
of a water down Agatha than what we saw in Wandervision. Again,
don't agree that. I just said it like you, I
said wander Vision for a second.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
This being Joe Locke only his second ever IMDb credit.
To me, gou is insane. The only other thing he's
ever been in, at least according to IMDb, is the
Netflix show heartstock Room, which I've never heard of, never
heard of it. Apparently it's still going. So the fact
that this is a second ever run and he's you know,
going toe to toe with Katherin Han, to me is

(28:23):
quite impressive, And to that point, this show does not
work without Catherine Han's range and her ability to like
sort of change a character note or a character trait
in an instant. She's awesome in this And a third
credit here, of course, Jack Schaeffer, because I think she
had complete control of this show. The casting department I
thought absolutely nailed this show. The casting was great, one

(28:46):
of the best parts about this program.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
For those of you tardy to the Mac and Goo party,
we rate everything on a forty hot dog rating system. Mac,
I'll let you go first.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
So to give the people some perspective on which I
stand on these MCU shows. I don't think anything has
really gotten to the elite level tier, but I do
have Loki Season one on a tier of its own
at thirty seven hot dogs. After that, I think there's
this group of shows that I really enjoyed to certain
degrees there have you know, they're not perfect, but enjoyable.

(29:18):
I've got Hawkeye thirty five, hot Dogs, Miss Marvel another
pleasant Surprize at thirty four, and then I have WandaVision
and Loki Season two at thirty three apiece. The rest
of the shows below that a step or two below.
She Hulk at thirty one, Moon Night at thirty. Falcon
Winter shows are twenty eight, Secret Invasion at twenty seven
that's definitely halloweened over time, and Echo at twenty Echo

(29:38):
by far the worst show they've done with that in mind,
gu I think this show is no worse than sixth
I have it right up there in that mishmash behind
Loki Season one. I might even have it as high
as as third or fourth, depending on how this feeling
really settles in, right in that thirty three thirty four
hot Dog range for me, still trying to find it.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
Sp you have it like in a middle tier. What
you're telling me it's.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
In the second tier, I guess technically, but it's with
four other shows, so it's no higher than third or fourth,
But it's no worse than sixth I think I liked
it more than WandaVision, which is weird for it's a
really weird thing to think about WandaVision.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Oh my, so captivating? What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (30:23):
Was it? Yes?

Speaker 1 (30:23):
This was it. It captured the nation's imagination.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
No, it captured yours because you like old timey TV.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
I like old stuff. It's showed.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
I liked one. I liked WandaVision, but the expectation for
WandaVision was like thirty eight hot dogs. The expectation for
this was like twenty, and I think they actually.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Ended up by hate. How you rate things now, your
expectation sucks. If it's okay, then it's okay.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
That doesn't change the rating, it's just the feeling towards
the rating is different. So like WandaVision, I have at
thirty three, I have this right about there. However, I
expect this to be way lower than that, So the
feeling towards the rating is different. I think that's a
very easy thing to understand. I do think this show
is pretty similar to WandaVision and Loki season two, though
I thought it was like really uneven at the beginning,

(31:12):
but then once it hits its stride. It's really really good,
really enjoyable, really intriguing. So I think I may have
it at that same score, that same thirty three, in
that same exact range, and in the grand scheme of
the whole MCU. This is probably like in the late twenties,
I have Shang Chi and Captain Marvel at thirty three each,
but movie greater than show. So those are above these

(31:33):
thirty threes, and those are twenty thirty.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
Podcast works movie better than show always.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
So this is smack dab in the middle of all
the MCU stuff.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
It was.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
This show is much better than I anticipate, and probably
do much better than it had any business being. This
show is a good show, and I think if you
asked me to give it a percentage chance to be
good eight weeks ago, I would have said maybe, like
a twenty percent chance.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
I would definitely have it below my top I don't
know five or whatever shows because the ones that you
mentioned and we have them in different order. I think
that Loki season one, we both agree is amazing. Wanda Vision,
I think is close to Loki Season one. You have
a little disrespect to me.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Hawkeye is clearly number two out of these shows.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
I think Hawkeye plays at the safest and because of that,
I can't give it too many flowers. It's still in
my top five, but I don't think it's amazing. I
think Loki season two, because of how it pops at
the end, I'd take that over Hawkey. Miss Marvel is
just a delight, and I think that Miss Marvel actually
plays more into what you're talking about of having no
expectations and then getting something that's really fun. I think

(32:42):
Miss Marvel does that better than this Miss Marvel.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
I might have Miss Marvel a hair above this, but
Miss Marvel and she Helker the two shows that have
really turned me around on this side character stuff. And
like most people hated she Helkko, I kind of liked it.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
I didn't mind g Yelk.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
I think we both admit it's way better than people give.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
It credit for.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
And even though the final episode is preposterous, it is insane.
They didn't throw lights at each other. I would have
this above those last three. And I would say this
is right around Moon Night for me, because Moonnight had
one episode that blew my fucking balls off. Moonnight had
that one episode. I'm like, this is amazing. The rest

(33:25):
of the show isn't great, and the finale of that
show actually take that back, This is better than Moonnight.
The finale of that show is it's bonkers. He has
rubber legs. I'm glad that we talked this out.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Moonnight flashed potential and just never got it.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
Never did so I would have this right below She Hulk.
I think this and she Hulk are pretty similar. Actually
really yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Okay, I feel like She Hulk is like, certainly like
a worse version of what this show does. But I
did I didn't mind She Hulk at all.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
She Hulk takes more swings at comedy, and while they
don't hit a ton of home runs, it's a it's
a two to eighty nine hitter who just slapped a
lot of singles. Do you want them in your starting lineup?
Not every day?

Speaker 2 (34:03):
To be clear, you have this seventh ahead of Echo,
Secret Invasion, Falcon and Winter Soldier in Moonnight.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yes, And I would also say when it comes to that,
the me not really caring about what's happening on screen
plays a lot into this, And yeah, I almost I
almost want to blame the penguin for that, because the penguin.
I'm sucked into every piece of dialogue, everything that's happening
on that show, every piece of gaba ghoul. I'm all

(34:32):
over the penguin. This show did not grab me like that.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Can I just say one thing about the penguin, We'll be.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Talking about the less. If this is something that's gonna
hurt my feelings, then no, don't say.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
It, dude. You know what I'm worried about.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
What's that one?

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Is that it peaked too early. The most recent episode,
worst episode of the season. Episode seven was the worst
episode of the season.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
I mean, he didn't get a top hat. Not to
spoil anything, he didn't get that top hat that we
all thought he was gonna get.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
So I'm worried that show peaked too early and is
gonna give us a satisfying conclusion if.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
He picks up an umbrella. I'm in forty to your point.
It is it is.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
It didn't help this show that it's going going up
against me.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
I know that we're not supposed to prop one thing
up by bringing something down, or bring something down by
propping I don't know what we're doing anymore. We're seven
hundred and fifty episodes into this podcast, guys, But that
just it didn't help it for me, and I was
I was bored during this show. And it's not even
because of the lack of effort from the show. I

(35:31):
think the themes of this show didn't really do it
for me. I think the portrayal of Agatha and the
show felt different to me. And it's it's been like,
what five years since WandaVision? How many years has it been?
It's been four And maybe that might be an issue too,
where I thought that was a dynamite character then and
we've just we've wandered down the Witches road a bit

(35:52):
too far from me to care anymore.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
No, that's a valid point, and that's an MCU point overall.
I think that people would would reflect that sentiment. But yeah,
I guess now that we're talking now, I think I
would have this fourth. I've got Loki Season one Hawkeye
Miss Marvel above it, but this has the same score
as Loki season two, and WandaVision arranged those how you
would I think right now, maybe because it's the most
recent one I've seen, I'd have this fourth, but tied

(36:16):
with those other two. But you know, in that Missmash
of shows. It's a quality show. It's not like I
think going in, I was expecting echo level, and it's
way better than that.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
I have this at twenty eight hot Dogs twenty seven
somewhere around there. Yeah, you're a real twenty cereal let's
say twenty cereal screw. I was talking to my father
in law, who used to buy all the X Men comics,
Spider Man comics, like he was a big Marvel fan,
and he's not really a fan of these shows and
movies anymore. And I said, what would get you back
into these movies? And he said, just have Wolverine fight

(36:51):
the Hulk, Like it was that simple. He's like, he's like,
just just do simple crap. I'm back, no I.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
So that's like one of the big criticisms of Deadpool
and Wolverine was that it was kind of meaningless in
the stream of the MCU. But it was made for
people like that. They have to appease those people every
once in a while, so it just is what it is.
I I find myself going the opposite direction of your
father in law. I am as much as I like
those movies, I'm starting to like these little.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
I'm an artist now. I used to be. I like
this and now, and this is coming from me. I
liked Werewolf by Night. About that werewolf by is it Midnight?
I don't know whatever the hell it was called. By
the way, that creature should have popped up in this,
Oh showet to spoilers, real quick spoilersiles spoilers. So the

(37:41):
Werewolf by Midnight didn't pop up in this. I was
a little disappointed. I wanted the Werewolf by Midnight to
pop up. And what I liked about that.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Over this spoilers.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, what I liked about that over this is that
that was forty five minutes.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, that's what I didn't like about it. It's just
we don't there's no real it's meaningless. It is what
that was.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Do you love were wolves? I don't know if that's true,
But you said you wanted to be a were wolf
instead of a vampire.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
I don't know enough about myself to know whether that's
a true claim or not, but I don't I don't
think I do.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Like where, do you dislike were wolves more than I
dislike witches?

Speaker 2 (38:15):
No, certainly not. You're disdained for witches. Seems unreasonable.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Oh, let me ask you this final couple episodes, there
were too many witches, right? Were there that many witches
just hanging out and looking for covens?

Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yes, they said at the beginning, like within a three
mile radius, there's always enough witches for coven or something
like that.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
That's kind of like a podcast. I guess there's always
enough middle aged whites dudes to make a pause.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
It's always enough white guys in a basement within a
three mile radius recording a podcast. Go what uh. Let's
get to some of the reveals in this show, and
my favorite one that we get an episode at the
end of episode eight, beginning of episode nine here is
that this Witches Road, which is what most of this

(38:56):
show takes place on, was all a bunch of bullshit
originally made up by Agatha just to cook up, you know,
this story to steal all the witch's power. And I
thought that was awesome and it the reveal is that
Billy Wanta Maximov's son. That's another reveal, the soul of
Billy Maximov's and bodies Billy Kaplan. It was all shit

(39:18):
in his world that he cooked up. And what we
discover in this reveal is that Agatha knew all along.
Agatha knew all along that this Witch's Road was something
that Billy cooked up, because it never existed down there.
When you go down there, she realizes how powerful he is.

(39:38):
And that's when she realizes it's Billy Maximov, Wanda's son,
because the only other person that can create these alternate realities,
these pocket universes, is Wanda, and that's the whole reason
why she sort of pursued Wanda in the first place.
And that tidbit is really really great, great storytelling, and
it makes me want to go back and rewatch those
first few episodes.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
I do question, So all of these witches who tried
to become a coven with her and they try to
blast her with their powers and whatnot, they all do
the same thing. None of them have a different strategy
as to when you know someone is trying to deceive them.
I feel like some would have, you know, a slight variation, right,
They all do the exact same thing. But also if

(40:17):
these witches, and I understand that a lot of them
don't have people to go back to, but some of
them have to at least have a couple friends or
a couple pieces of family or something like that. And
when all these witches go missing. There's no law or
mythos about this other witch who's stealing everyone's powers.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
So what you're missing here is the time frame. It
was a witch's hunt going on in the Americas at
the time, so that's why they seek refuge in other
witches and don't have family to go back to.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Now, I do agree we needed more lare.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Built out with Agatha in the Salem seven and what
happened to her and dark hold stuff that we didn't get.
But when it comes to that, there was no refuge
for those witches other than and other witches. Yeah, that's
like an American history thing that they're kind of playing
upon there, But.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
There would be no one else to be like, hey,
where did where did Shye Lean go?

Speaker 2 (41:09):
You can't ask those questions like, oh, she was a
fucking witch.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
We killed her Aubrey Plaza's death by the way.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, awesome, awesome. This was like one of the ones
that from the beginning of the show everyone kind of
had sniffed out and was hoping for really cool reveal
in episode seven with Lilia's stuff and her face. The
practical effects was super cool. I thought one of the
coolest moments of this show. Gu was this like Truman
show moment where Aubrey Plaza is the only other character.

(41:40):
Death Rio is the only other character that realizes this
Witch's road is all bullshit. In from Billie's You Know Magic,
she tears that fabric of reality with her knife. I
thought that was super cool and I liked the dynamic
of those two being the only two that know what
the hell is going on. Also, we learned that death
Rio's the original Green Witch, and there's this whole plot

(42:04):
point that's not really outright said, but I think you
have to read into here that Agatha's son, and we
learned this in the finale was supposed to die at birth,
maybe is still born something to that effect, and Agatha
pleads with Death to give her time. Death does and
built into that, And to your point, there should have
been a little bit more background here. It's clear she

(42:26):
knows who Death is and has had a run in
with Death before, but we don't get their genesis, the
relationship between them, which was a little bit of a
disappointment there. However, this whole like trade off between Agatha
and Death, I think is why Agatha starts killing witches.
She needs to feed Death these souls because she granted

(42:49):
her son, Nicholas's life. There's this balance, this ever you know,
changing balance that death has to deal with. And that's
also and this is why in the comic books, her
and fans are linked. It's a fanos type of thing,
this whole balance in the universe that they're dealing with.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Well, it's a it's a mix because she also by
them blasting her, she's able to absorb their powers and
become more powerful.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Well that's that's later, So that's once her son's dead.
Then I think she's vindictive and wants to be as
powerful as possible.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Her son is still alive when she uses her son
to trick witches into stealing their powers.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah, but not to the level it is in the montage.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
I think in the montage she's also at the point
of she doesn't care anymore. She lost the only thing
that she actually cares about, so she's like, fuck it,
I'll steal all these powers.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Totally agree, But I think initially they're roping these witches
in because her son doesn't realize it. But she's saving
her son by doing that. So it is odd to
have her son mixed in, but it's just what they
had to do. Goo. Yes, the biggest revealed mid season
here is that this teenager aka Billy Kaplan aka Billy

(43:55):
Maximoff is Billy Maximoff, the character of Wicked in the comics.
And I don't know much about him other than he
has a lot of the same powers as his mother,
maybe not as powerful, but can do a lot of
the same things she can. And this plays up in
the finale where or in episode eight where Wickan uses

(44:16):
his powers becomes full. Wickan has like a somewhat of
a comic accurate get up there, which I liked, and
I like the nod to the scarlet which is crown
as well. And then in that situation we get Agatha
sacrificing herself so that Billy can live on. We get
that whole kiss a death scene, which I thought was
super cool. And then Agatha lives on as a ghost.

(44:36):
And is that because death sort of agreed to give
her a little bit of time too.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
I don't know how ghosts work in this world.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Yeah, I don't know either. This one. This part's pretty unclear.
Why Agatha can just exist as a ghost.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
The ancient one is able to through death, and there's
a bunch of different heavens and depths in the MCU.
So maybe that's just kind of that's kind of a
magic way of going forward. Yeah, so that's that's what
I'm wondering here.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
One of the things going forward, is she operating in
that like ghost plane that we see with other characters
that their souls have been like punched out of them.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Is that where she's at. I don't.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
I don't know. I don't think that's very clear, but
I do like that she's still lingering, and that's her
and or Billy are still kind of working together to
another reveal we get here, And this is something that's
implied all the way back in WandaVision is that Agatha
traded her son for the Dark Hold to get all
these powers. Obviously, in the finale we learned that wasn't
the case. And again I think we learned that not

(45:34):
only did that not happen, she lived her whole life
dedicated to making sure he could live. And then it
seems like this is inferred this. I read this on
the Internet. I don't know how true this is. Goose.
Sometimes they say the Internet's not true, that's not true.
They're saying that the one day they didn't kill, which
was the day that Nicholas Scratch finally died. So I
don't I don't know if that's if that's the case

(45:54):
or not. But one theory I do like Gou is
that Agatha's whole motivation in WandaVision is to steal Wanda's powers, right,
And that was part of it. We saw that part
of it. But she wants to steal her powers because
she learns that Wanda is powerful enough to warp reality
and create life, and therefore she can reincarnate her son's

(46:15):
soul bring her son back, which is sort of what
they're doing with Billy and Tom Billy, and I really
like that. That rounds out Agatha and the motivations in
Wanda Vision a little bit more. I really like that aspect.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
I also like and we brought this up a couple
episodes ago, maybe episode five or six of Questioning. So
Billy can put his mind or his spirit into a
dead child, but his brother was more of a speedster.
He was really fast. I we're not sure if he
could do that, and he's able to buy Billy guiding him,
which I really liked.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, it seems like Billy was in control of Tommy's
soul in that moment and even maybe had tommy soul
inside of him as well. And then they find this
other dying child to throw tommy soul there. Yeah, And
it's inferred at the end of this season this series
that they're out looking for that kid now to reun
I Billy and time by the way, that that.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Wasn't a prank. That was murder, right, No, No, the
kid was already being murdered. I'm not saying Billy or
Agatha murdered the kid, but they said at the time
it's like, oh, it was a prank gone wrong. No,
those other kids murdered that kid.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, yeah, man slaughter at the very least.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
So like at first, you know, no, no, they tricked him.
They pushed him into the pool. Then another kid was
holding him down on the water. You saw that, right,
That wasn't just me?

Speaker 2 (47:33):
I like, this is what really you're really picking up
on here, This is what that was sad as a
father of a of a kid, this is what is
affecting you.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Because I understood that Tommy needed a body to go
into it. I'm like, what, why are these kids killing
this other kid? Go?

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, uh Agatha starts this this season of television with
no powers. She has no powers until she steals Alice's
in episode five, I Believe or four. And what I
really like starting out the series the way it does
is obviously Gou. In that first episode, she's still under
the spell of Wanda. She's the only one in Westview

(48:10):
that is still living in this alternate reality. And I
like how and again this is why I really end
up really liking the show, how that dynamic flips by
the Witch's Road. She's the only one that actually knows
they're in an alternate reality. It's the complete opposite of
where she started. To me, that's great writing, great storytelling.
Of course, besides Rio, I really enjoyed that. Again, I

(48:33):
would have liked a little bit more background with the
Salem seven stuff, and maybe where Rio and Agatha first
came in to meeting each other. But whatever, I guess
once you're five hours and you can't do too much
more Gou. Episode seven, Lily Calderu all her time jumping
finally is explained and she figures it out, puts it
all together. I thought the moment where she flips the

(48:54):
tower upside down kills the Salem seven was fucking awesome,
and that episode jumping around and then having it written
out and playing it up in the prior episodes of
the way it did, I thought was super cool. We
also learned in this episode that Lilia was the one
that placed the sigil on Billy at his bott Mitzvah.
By the end of the season, gou one of the
things we get is Jennifer Cale surviving. She witch floats

(49:16):
off into wherever she goes.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Is that what it's called witch floats floats?

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Apparently she is connected to Ghostwriter in the comics. She's
Ghostwriter's cousin, and she's also tied up with the Midnight Sun.
So I think we're gonna see Jennifer Cale at some
point again, she'll be a somewhat meaning character.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
They've already talked about wanting to do a Ghostwriter show.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, yeah, And I think they've planted some of the
seats for the Midnight Suns as well, so that's that's
an interesting thing there. We also learned that Agatha was
indeed the one that bound Jennifer a century prior, and
she didn't even really remember that, so that that was
again a nice little note there. I don't think Jennifer
realizes though, that that road experien it was completely fabricated.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
She's like, first of all, she's the one that survives.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Yeah, and she also doesn't realize it's not real, so
she might be going out and telling other Witches that
need X, Y or Z, Hey, we go to the
Witch's Road. So that's that's a really interesting dynamic there
as well.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
So that's kind of what we were talking about earlier,
where I don't think we get a straight out and
out Agatha show again like another season. I think that
if they do something else with this, it would be
characters from this show getting a spinoff like her, like Billy,
maybe forming some kind of a Young Avengers, or maybe
it's just more with the Witch's Road, but it's not
Agatha centric. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
And I also so we see Billy close the door
to the Witch's Road in the finale. Yeah, but I
think it might still exist because again, he can create
these little pocket universes, pocket realities, so it might still exist.
You just need to figure out how to open the door,
which is interesting. It's an interesting dynamic that that is
kind of still floating off to the side there.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
And do you think that Billy and Tommy kind of
snap something into vision when they see him, so that I'm.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
I'm wondering now what Vision Quest is really all about.
So we have White Vision, who we haven't seen in
four years, but now Billy having his full wicked abilities,
I feel like he's going to be able to somehow
tap into white Vision or connect to White Vision. And
on top of that, he's going to be searching for Tommy.
So I wonder if Vision Quest kind of brings all

(51:20):
of these these things together, and maybe that's where we
get Wanda Pops back. I'm not sure, but I gotta
say this show makes me infinitely more interested in what's
going to happen in Vision Quests because prior to this
I was not really all that interested in Vision Quests
because it had been so long. But yeah, I think
that may pop up there.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Oh and also, so you mentioned Mephisto. I didn't. I'm
not saying they saying the show. The show mentioned Mefisto
this time.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah, yeah, either do it or don't. Yeah, So let
me see here, let me scroll. I want to make
sure I did missed anything from the finale. Yeah, yeah, got
all that, So leftover questions gu no Mefisto, no Mafisto.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
But they mentioned them, they mentioned him.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
I think I'm gonna need and this doesn't help the
internet shit. I think I'm gonna need all these internet
nerds to stop doing Mafisto theories because if they weren't
gonna do it here, they're not gonna do it.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Right.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
When are you gonna bring them out now? I don't
understand this was the time and place.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
I think once again, the issue is that that you
can't show the devil in China and they don't want
to ruin their box office bucks.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Uh, this wasn't making any money at the box office,
So that's ah.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
I question that.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
And here's a question. This might be a question for
the comic book boys. Death is superior to Mephisto, right,
like Mafista would be an asient of death and not
the other way around. I guess no, because I think
I think death is much more powerful than Mephisto. And
so if we've already gotten to death, I don't think
you really need Mefisto.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
And then also with death in the comics, she does
a lot with Thanos and with Deadpool, and they're both
obsessed with her.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yes, yeah, so you might make you have a better
chance I think at this point getting Deadpool connection, then
you do thanos based on everything that's played out in
the MCU GOO. We don't see the genesis, and I
did mention this already of Agatha and Death's relationship, but
she does recognize her in that initial scene when she's
giving birth, So I really wish we had seen their

(53:17):
first interaction. Again, we don't get much background on the
Salem stuff. We don't get the scene of her coming
into the dark Hold. I would have liked that. Where
do we see the Scarlet Witch next? Goo? That's another
question I have because it's teased here in the back
of all of our heads. I'm thinking we all thought
she might pop up somehow at the end here.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
Of course that didn't happen. So do you think it
is envision quest? I wasn't paying attention. What was that?
Where do we.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
See the Scarlet Witch next? Where did she?

Speaker 3 (53:47):
So?

Speaker 1 (53:47):
That also would have been I'm glad that you brought
that up. So Death pretty much says to Billy, do
you have any questions for me? Billy should have been like,
where's my mom? Is my mom dead?

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Yeah? I don't know. Well, and obviously in Billy's mind
he's prioritizing Tommy and he wants to get Tommy first,
So it's not even like he wants his mom. It's
almost like he's had his peace there. And he also
might because of his understanding of his powers or or
his understanding of his mother's powers, he might just realize

(54:20):
like if his mom wants to come back, she can
come back, and he doesn't need to do anything.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
That might be a part of it as well, because
he doesn't mind cheating death because he's well not it
is cheating death. He took a boy's body, much like
he's helping his brother take a boy's body.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yes, so I wonder if going forward, death is sort
of pursuing Billy and you know, by virtue Wanda again,
maybe there's gonna be a conflict down the line between
Wanda and death, which are like two of the most
powerful beings in all of the MCU. So that's that's
something maybe to look forward to.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Let's get into Ma and Ma sac could be anything.
It could be a boat and mac. Speaking of boats.
Speaking of on Halloween, Bill Belichick and his lady friend
dressing as a mermaid and sea Captain Merman. Merman, I
was on the YouTube the other day and I can't
think of the person's channel. It might be Jane dox

(55:22):
or something like that. Jane Doxer don't quote me on this,
but she did, and I didn't watch the whole video,
but she did a recap of Do you remember in
the year twenty twelve when Animal Planet did what we
all believed to be a real documentary on found Mermaids?

Speaker 2 (55:42):
Yes, yes, I do. I do recall this. Yeah, what did?

Speaker 1 (55:46):
So? First off, let's uh Animal Planet, which was known.
They never fabricated shit. It was always like, here's an animal,
here's some facts. Let's move on. They had a series
about how the US military found Mermaids.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
I remember distinctly the marketing for this and the couple
weeks leading up to it. The Internet was a blaze
about this whole, this whole thing, and in my mind
I just took it as you know. They had the
ghost Hunter series, they had the Bigfoot Hunter series out there.
To me, that's all it was gonna be. It's just
like these conspiracy people. Oh I saw, I saw Did

(56:23):
you see that? Look over there? You look, there's nothing
that type of thing. It didn't end up being that,
but that's what I was taking it to be.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Did you watch it when it was on, No, of
course not. Oh I watched it that first one that
it was on, and I was waiting for them to
show it, and then they had these these horrible looking
mermaids pop out of nowhere and then fly away, and
You're like, wow, they got the mermaid footage. They got it.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Obviously, mermaids don't exist, never did, probably never will unless
there's some cross interspecies breeding.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
So what they said is that man, they were on
land and they kept going to the sea to get food,
and then eventually they just webbed their fingers and went
into the ocean.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Evolution worked the other way. But that's fine.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Don't question Animal Planet. They're all over this.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
We've talked about this in the past couple episodes. I'm
not a ghost guy, more of an alien guy. I
don't think ghosts exists. I think aliens do. We're is
never going to see one. I don't think mermaids exist,
never will. However, yes, one thing I could believe in
and think it might because there is vast wilderness that
we might never explore or might never have footage of

(57:31):
I think there's a chance that Bigfoot exists or something
like it, a sasquatch.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
See now on the other way around, I think because
there's so much ocean, and as you go deeper and deeper,
it's too dark to see anything down there anyways, that
if there's anything that we don't know about, it's in
the water.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
No, that's true, and math and probability would say there's
a bigger chance maybe of a mermaid like creature. I
just think it's the idea of the mermaid is dumber
than the idea of the sasquatch.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
So that's why I'm buying into sasquatch. And yes, I've
asked you this many of times, and maybe your mind
has changed. If you had to have sex with a mermaid,
which half do you want to be a woman? In
which half do you want to be a fish?

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Yeah? I think I want the top half to be
a woman.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Oh I don't think like that.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Yeah, well, what are you gonna look at?

Speaker 1 (58:16):
You? Look it right into its dead fish eyes? All right?
Where can the people for sure?

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Well?

Speaker 1 (58:27):
No, if you I would imagine bottom half, close your eyes.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Da can't be Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
expound upon my answer.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
I have thoughts, but that's for another time. Bottom half,
close your eyes, pray for death.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
If anyone's interested in me, uh, expounding upon my answer,
if you ever meet me in real life, ask me
about it.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Everyone out there find Mac and ask him about the Mermaids.
Where can the people find us? Mac?

Speaker 2 (58:58):
You can find us on Twitter and on Instagram, at
Mac and Goo podcasts every other platform. We are Mac
Amberson and Goo. It's Mac Shift seven Goo that includes
Facebook's to tuner, tune in Stitcher cat Speaker.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
Is your second breakdown up what is happening?

Speaker 2 (59:13):
We're on Spotify. More importantly, we're on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Get on there, rate review, subscribe five stars.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
If you do that, we'll get you a free Mac
and Goo T shirt from folks over at Watertown sports Where.
That's watter Town Sports Where thirty four Ovent Street in Watertown.
Watertown Sportswear dot com expert screenprinting and embroidery.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
Tepublic dot com merged. It's the holiday season, go and
buy some merch. I think you should leave. Stuff is
ready and.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Also ready. We're going party like a ship.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
End of the week, will dump and now we don't
give up.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Guys.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
Guys your birthday, start of next week, we'll do Penguin.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Yeah, Penguino Minuto will be Paguino hour next week.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Yeah, because we are still two weeks away from Gladiator
three maybe, and that's the next movie, right.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
I think so, I think. So, what are your expectations
for this Penguin finale.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
I'm just I'm jazzed. I'm excited.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
You.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Yeah, I love this I love this show. And when
you said earlier the weakest of the episodes, episode seven,
you still have an amazing Kristin Miliatti scene in there
where she's talking to the girl only.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Scene of the show, of this episode, I really like
to be honest with you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
So I'm in.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
I was listen. The show has been great again. I'm worried.
We already saw its best, and I'm worried, that's all.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
I'm not worried at all. They're gonna land this plane,
but are they are? Hold on?

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Hold on, I'm worried. Gu part of this is that
there will be no consequences at the end of this
and everyone we have seen this whole season will all
be alive and to me, nothing meaningful to me if Penguin,
Vic and Sophia are all still alive by the end
of the season, I'll be a bit disappointed.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
I suppose. I suppose, I mean we lost uh, we
lost miss her Maslf.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
I don't know how they're gonna remedy the Sophia Oz thing,
because it doesn't seem like they're going to be able
to exist at the same time anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Right, one of them will say, I don't even want
to be around anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
And I thought, like three episodes ago, I thought that
Vic was for sure going to die, and now I
think he's definitely living.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
I want to see what mss Cobb does, what missus
Cobb does.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Yeah, I think, yeah, maybe she's the one that dies.
Probably right, I don't know what she's gonna have left
going forward.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
You know what, she might go in a blaze of glory.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
She may. And again, that was the best scene of
this past episode, her in Sophia, that conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
That's well. No, I think Sophia and and the and
her niece was the best part of this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Oh no, I don't agree.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
I loved it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
I thought her in Oz's mom was the best.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Now they're humanizing her again. No, I think. I mean,
they already humanized her. They don't need to do any
more of that now because you keep on going huh,
she's too crazy, she's.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Too I did like that she told her niece to try.
That was a nice little thing because she started out
with a fib and then then she then she was like,
all right, you know what, this will be better. She
just knows the truth, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
So check us out at that time at the beginning
of next week. Four Penguin News Dump. At the end
of this week, uh tuesdays or gouosdays. I use Kangaroos Bymburton.
Please flip the cassette over to side B to continue
the adventure. Now it's not for girls jumping on trampolines.