December 4, 2024 • 37 mins
People moving out of the state of Massachusetts has increased steadily over the last decade, however since the start of the Covid pandemic in 2020, the state has seen a surge in out-migration. This latest wave is cause for concern as the majority of those leaving the state are wealthy tax filers and young adults. Economic Research Associate at the Pioneer Institute, Aidan Enright, joined Dan to discuss the data on this ongoing out-migration trend!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray WBZ Constance Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thank you Dan Harkins. You know, on Nightside, one of
the things we like to try to do is make
people think. I don't especially care what you think, meaning
whether you like that candidate or don't like that candidate,
or favor this issue or oppose that issue, It doesn't
matter to me. I just want people who think and
(00:29):
whatever the conclusion comes, whatever conclusion you come to, hopefully
it comes to some thought. So that's what we talk about.
I'm the voice of reason and I want people to think.
And this next guest, I think is going to make
all of us think quite a bit. Massachusetts as a
state has a lot of natural resources. We have a
(00:49):
lot of economic resources, great universities, great colleges, pretty good
road system, we have MBTA, we have a major airport,
but we have various industries. We have you know, the
beauty of Cape Corn in the summertime, the beauty of
the Berkshires and the fall and winter, and we have
(01:12):
so much going for us in this state of six
point seven million people. But we are in a state
that is in big trouble. That's big trouble with a
capital B and a Capital t and to talk about
that is my next guest, Aiden Enwright. Aiden works with
(01:32):
the Pioneer Institute, which is a think tank here in Massachusetts,
and he has just written a very interesting study about
the Massachusetts the amount of out migration that is occurring
in Massachusetts and the implications thereof. So let me first
(01:54):
of all, welcome Aiden, Aiden Enwright, first time here night side.
Thanks very much for joining us tonight. Whenever we think
about a think tank, we think about, oh boy, this
must be something that's very difficult to comprehend, but it's
really not, and this is an amazing report that has
just been released. First of all, explain to us what
(02:16):
the phrase out migration means. We're not talking about like
the migration of the swallows to Capistrano or the migration
of the sharks away from the cape heading south once
the water starts to cool up, you know, get really
cold out there. What's what's economic out migration mean?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, good evening.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I thought for a moment we had lost it before
we started there, and I'm sorry, go ahead, welcome, I'm.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Sorry about that. So when we talk about out migration,
we're talking about residents picking up their roots and leaving
the state, And there's obviously a lot of reasons that
someone might do that. And like you said, Master'stts is
a great state for a lot of different reasons. We
have great jobs, we have a lot of economic opportunities,
(03:09):
we have the Berkshires, wonderful natural resources. But there are
also a lot of issues that are affecting everyday people.
The cost of living here, the cost of housing, taxes
that are pushing people out of the state, and they're
deciding to locate elsewhere that's more affordable.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
So this what attracted you that you've done a study
on this? What it? There must have been something that
attracted you to this study and and and said to yourself, well,
well let me see that if I can prove or
disprove this thesis.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Yeah, I think we got a little of.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
A delay here.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Do you want to hit it right now?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Let me ask you, there seems to be a delay here.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
You want to hit I'm just not myself.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
You're just on your cell phone, Okay, no problem, I'm just.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
On my.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Go ahead, apologies about that. So I think the issue
is that really attracted me to this and to the
pioneer in researching this is that a lot of people
across the state are kind of feeling the cost pressures,
and we wanted to see to what extent people were
(04:30):
making decisions about leaving Massachusetts as a result of those.
So I think everybody understands that we're having a bit
of a housing crunch. Housing is very unaffordable. You know,
the median rent for a two venter apartment in Greater
Boston is thirty two hundred dollars a month. It's the
(04:52):
you know, single family homes are difficult to buy because
there's so expensive. There's a lot of taxes. Master's is
very uncompetitive with other states in our tax rates, and
we want to know that it's a very difficult decision
for people, for someone to uproot themselves and leave, and
(05:12):
we want to know to what extent these factors are
pushing people out and not attracting other people back in.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Okay, some of the high tax states around the country.
We think of New York, California, and Hawaii and you
mentioned them in your report. They have a drain of people.
We have a drain of people. We do not have
large families anymore, with five or six kids. That's a
rare exception. So we actually at a time when we
(05:42):
should be increasing population, although we are, we have had
an influx of people coming to the state recently from
across the border and from Texas and places like that.
Bottom line is, we are not growing as a state,
and we haven't been growing as a state compared to
other states for a long time. And the reason I
know that is when I started in this business a
(06:03):
long time ago, we used to have sixteen members of
the House of Representatives. We're now down to nine. Because
of course that's all based on population around the country.
But what you found was that thousands of people are
leaving Massachusetts, people who have established themselves. And the thing
(06:24):
that's most frightening is that, based upon the graphs and
charts that I've seen of the people who were leaving
Massachusetts who left in twenty twenty two, more than fifty
percent of those people who left Massachusetts were high earners,
meaning they were making over two hundred thousand dollars two
(06:45):
hundred thousand dollars or more a year. And when you
add in the people who were making between one hundred
and two hundred thousand dollars, which is also a high earner,
you can add another twenty five percent. So in in fact,
about eighty percent of the of the people who have
left Massachusetts in that year twenty twenty two, eighty percent
(07:09):
of them are making upwards of over one hundred thousand dollars.
That's an incredible drain of income and ultimately tax revenue.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Right, yeah, exactly, And that's amounted to about seventy one
thousand people more people leaving the state than coming in.
Since from twenty twenty to twenty twenty two, likely something
around the lines of five hundred million dollars of tax revenue.
(07:42):
That has left eleven billion dollars in total income those
tax filers have brought with them to other states when
they left. That's a significant loss for the state.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Okay, we're going to drill down on some of the
costs of some of the reasons that the people are leaving.
And look that there's a bunch of reasons that maybe
some people decide they want to leave for the weather. Well,
we can't change the weather. But the tax structure and
all of that in Massachusetts compared to other states is important.
We'll talk about that. My guest is with us. He's
(08:15):
with the Pioneer Institute. Aiden En Wright. Are you are
you I assume you're an economist state correct, Yes.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I'm an economic research associate, so economist by training.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Okay, excellent. We'll take a very quick break here at nightside.
If you'd like to join the conversation and talk about
maybe your decision to leave a state or your decision
to stay in a state, feel free. I think it's
something we need to think about here in Massachusetts because
most of us think about our own set of circumstances,
and either we're happy with our own set of circumstances
(08:49):
or unhappy or somewhere in the middle. But we're surrounded
by people who are some doing better than us, some
doing worse than us. All so, now a bunch of
people who are very successful and also young. We're talking
about people in their twenties and thirties who have decided
Massachusetts is not quite their cup of tea. If you'd
(09:11):
like to add your voice to the conversation, all you
gotta do is dial six one, seven, two, five, four
ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten
thirty back with Aiden en Wright. This this research study
is available from Pioneer Institute. UH It's It's It's It's
good read it's it's a sad story, but it's a
(09:33):
good read. Back on Nightside Rent after a couple of
brief messages.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
to night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
With me is aiden Enwright. He's with the Pioneer Institute
and he has an author uh an article entitled mass
out Migration Massachusetts out Migration, Outfit of Wealth and Residents continues.
This is a white paper. It is available by going
(10:06):
to Pioneer Institute dot org. You can read it for yourself.
But I just think that when you listen and well,
when you just read, let me read a little bit
of this. Out migration from Massachusetts has been increasing consistently
over the last decade, but since the beginning of the
COVID nineteen pandemic in twenty twenty, out migration has surged.
(10:28):
From twenty twelve to twenty nineteen, Massachusetts lost ten billion
dollars in net adjusted gross income agi from emigrating taxpayers.
In just three years. From twenty twenty to twenty twenty two,
the state lost an even greater amount ten point six billion,
So it's accelerating. The state lost three point nine billion
(10:50):
in adjusted gross income in twenty twenty two alone. Over
twenty twelve to twenty twenty two period, total AGI loss
increased fourfold. And to make this wave of outer state
migration even a greater concern, it is concentrated among wealthier
(11:11):
tax filers with at least two hundred thousand dollars a
yearly income and residents aged twenty six to thirty four.
This is a trend, and the sub trend is fighting.
This is not older people in their sixties, seventies, and
eighties deciding to DeCamp to Florida so they can beat
(11:32):
the common health on the estate tax provisions that exist
here in Massachusetts. Is when you started on this and
you didn't have these numbers. This sounds to me like
this is a critical problem that no one, no one
in the comonwalth of Massachusetts is currently addressing. How right?
How wrong am I on that point?
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, it's kind of staggering these trends. You know, Massachusetts
has been using people to a certain extent for many years.
New Hampshire, for example, one out of every four residents
of New Hampshire were originally born in Massachusetts. That's how
many people we've lost in New Hampshire. But the huge
(12:16):
surge in the last couple of years is like something
that we haven't seen before, and there's not really a
lot that's been going on to address it. The legislature
has tried a couple of different solutions, but just not
to the extent that's necessary to exact to you know,
(12:38):
kind of stem this tide of people leaving the state.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Well, we just on a ballot initiative in twenty twenty
two approved the so called millionaires tax, so that now
people who are earning over a million dollars, instead of
paying five with the flag graduated state income tax, they're
now charged nine percent on anything over a million dollars.
(13:01):
And people who make that sort of money, they're not dumb,
and they're not going to stick around in Massachusetts and
pay really the equivalent about if someone makes a professional athlete,
for example, who makes thirty million dollars, they're going to
pay approximately ten million dollars, well, not ten million, ten
(13:25):
percent of that thirty million dollars, three million dollars in
state taxes in Massachusetts playing for the Red Sox, the Bruins,
the Patriots, or the Celtics if they played in Florida,
or in Texas or in Tennessee, that money would not
go to the state because or they don't have they
don't have the equivalent of state income taxes there. And
(13:47):
by the way, that is going to cost our professional
sports teams. And it's already been raised by some of
the professional sports agents. And I know most people could
care less about the the athlete who make you know,
mega millions of dollars. But we've always prided ourselves on
having you know, great competitive teams, and we're going to
(14:10):
be losing a lot of these athletes when it comes
time for contract renewals on this Why wouldn't athletes stay
in Massachusetts play for Massachusetts team knowing that essentially ten
percent of their salary is going to go out the
window before they even get it. Explain that one to
my audience.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
That's something that a lot of people in the sports
scene have raised, something that Phil Policheck has mentioned recently
that it's been harder to kind of attract star athletes
into Massachusetts because of the additional tax. And there's also
been there are certified public accountants in Massachusetts and they've
(14:53):
recently been surveying a lot of their high income clients,
and sixty four percent of them said that the surtax
alone is a reason that they're considering leaving the state.
And it's not just the surtax. A lot of states,
more than half of the states in the country, don't
have an estate tax attacks on someone's home after they
(15:16):
die and other wealth Massachusetts does, and it has one
of the lowest thresholds in the country. We also have
a short term capital gains tax. Most states align their
capital gains tax at the same level for short term
and long term. We also have other business taxes that
(15:38):
disportunately affect high income people here, and so it's kind
of a confluence of factors, and it just doesn't make
economic sense to stay here or to locate here, especially
if you're like an athlete.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, and I think that we have a lot of
politicians who look at the wealthy people in Massachusetts as
cash cows, and and in that group, obviously you have
a lot of professional athletes who earn their money here.
So therefore they are caught in that in that dilemma.
But when they have a choice to play for another
(16:12):
team in another another state that is much more tax friendly,
they're going to relocate. It's it's as simple as that.
My guest is Aiden, and right, Aiden, we have a
whole bunch of phone calls here and I want to
get to all of them. Mike, Matt Sorgia, and we'll
start with Kathleen. You can ask questions, you can make comments. Uh,
(16:33):
let's start the conversation part of our interview with Aiden
and Wright of the Pioneer Institute right after the news
at the bottom of the hour. My name is Dan
Ray and this is Nightside, and we're trying to make
you think. Okay, that's all we're trying to do. You
may come to the absolute different conclusion than Aidan and
(16:54):
I probably would come to. But as long as you
think and get and get to that conclusion, I'm We'll
be back on Nightside after this.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w z
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Britdie takes some phone calls. My guest is Aiden Enright.
He has produced a very thoughtful paper for the Pioneer Institute,
which you can read yourself at Pioneer Institute dot org.
It is just it's entitled mass Out Migration Paper. It
is a frightening look into the last twelve or so
(17:32):
years in this commonwealth under the leadership of both Republican
and Democratic governors. By the way, it doesn't really matter
if the legislature itself is a way to the left
politically in Massachusetts. And at this point, people, particularly young
(17:52):
people according to this report, meaning in the ages of
twenty six to thirty four, who are making over two
hundred thousand dollars a leaving this eight and that does
not argue well for the future. So let's go first
off to New Jersey where Kathleen awaits. Hey, Kathleen, welcome
to Night Side. Thanks for calling in. You're all with
Aiden En Wright.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Hi, Dan, can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I can hear you just perfectly. I don't know have
I ever had the pleasure of you calling this show
from Jersey before?
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Yes, I have a house in Massachusetts and I also
have one down in South Jersey, and tonight I'm driving
down to the South Jersey home.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
All right, Well, welcome, welcome. I'm delighted that you're joining
us and you've got Aiden En Wright's full attention. What's
your comment or question?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
Yes, so I'm curious to know. I think I've seen
it from experience. I'm older than that twenty eight and
thirty four.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Age groups aren't well lately, and I.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
Know, h serious place to be that young again. But
I've noticed a lot of the twenty age to thirty
four year old, especially in that income bracket, are working
for certain intersties like high tech pharmaceuticals, and those companies
are relocating out of mass for a number of reasons.
(19:08):
And I've noticed that they're like moving, especially Texas, Arizona,
parts of the Midwest. Could that be why we have
this influx of people in that gage group migrating out
stands well, let's.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
See, is this a function of individual choices or a
company decisions to relocate that's Kathleen's question, or a combination thereof,
and which is which is a heavier factor?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's some kind of
combination of the two. Obviously, there are certain businesses relocating
to states that have lower taxes corporate taxes and other
kinds of things, and where jobs are, that's where people
are going to locate to. You also kind of have
this rise of remote work. There's a lot of fully
remote workers in Massachusetts or even people who are working
(19:59):
for companies that are located here have additional freedom, especially
those younger people, to relocate to more cost effective states
where they can have a Massachusetts income but live somewhere
where that income goes a lot further. So I think
for a lot of people it's kind of a no
(20:20):
brainer decision.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
But a lot of those people, if they're working for
Massachusetts companies, even though they're living in Florida or Arizona,
they're paying state taxes to Massachusetts. If that money is
earned and paid by Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Corporation, yeah, they would be paying some state taxes, but
any of their other contributions, and if they're bringing some
other kind of business with them, or the money that
they're spending in their local communities and other things like that,
that's leading the state.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Okay, Kathleen, that's a really good question. You got to
follow up.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Yeah, I wondered then if this age group between twenty
eight and thirty four, let's be honest, that's usually a
child bearing age or a you know, child making age,
then are they not enrolling their children in Massachusetts schools?
For instance, in a lot of cities and sounds like
(21:18):
I live at my home in Kingsboro, we're building a
very large middle school to accommodate the number of children
that they're projecting to go into the middle school. So
now I've seen around me all these different communities building
no middle schools, elementary schools, high schools, projecting these children
and now there's going to be dropped in the population.
(21:39):
So then what impact does that have on the rate payers?
Stay behind dan because these schools have been built.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Now it's not going to get better.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Go ahead, No, certainly.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
You know, the child age population in Massachusetts as largely decreasing.
A lot of people are deciding to go to different
states because if you're going to buy a single family
home or something like that and you want to raise
a family, it's a lot more affordable elsewhere, and so
the people who are here for making those types of
investments are going to shoulder more of that burden and
(22:17):
that's not there.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
And there's also a lot of parents in Massachusetts who
are now homeschooling kids as well, So that's a factor
in terms of dwindling a public school population. Kathleen, I
loved your questions, and I thank you for being such
a loyal nightside listener. How's the signal coming in in
your car down in Jersey.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
I'm actually coming in pretty good consider and I'm going
through thirty five to forty mile an hour on Wednesday,
but at least I'm not getting to know.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Okay, great, We'll have safe travels and we'll be here
till midnight for you to keep your company.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Okay, all right, thank you.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
It's a great topic and I appreciate the time.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Thanks, Kathleen, appreciate your call. Let's keep rolling here. Going
to go next to a sword jump who is in Mansfield, Massachusetts,
a little closer to home. So what's You're welcome? How
are you?
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Hey?
Speaker 6 (23:05):
Dan? How's it going tonight?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's going great, going great, Sogia. You're on with aiden En? Right,
what's your comment of question?
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (23:13):
Really quick, Aiden, I was able to find the piece,
so it's definitely an interesting piece and I want to
read it when I get a chance. But you know, Dan,
I'm obviously a big Boston sports fan and wanted to
kind of attack it from the sports perspective. And you know,
I don't know if you can really compare like the
California tax situation to Massachusetts, but like for example.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
California, California is even worse than Massachusetts. But but, but Florida, Texas.
There are a bunch of states where professional sports teams
in you know, various leagues exist if it's a choice,
if taxes, taxes in California, that's why a lot of
people are leaving California. They're losing population out there. They're
(23:59):
faster than Massachusets on a per capita basis, right, And you.
Speaker 6 (24:03):
Know, as a big Celtics fan, you know, we're very
fortunate that JB and JT locked up those massive kind
of extensions. But they've actually done kind of some calculations
on that the take home of these big contracts, Like
you're lucky if you take even fifty percent home. And
(24:26):
you know, it's getting to a point where, like the
Patriots are coming up on a big off season, so
you hope that you're able to get the big guys. Obviously,
the Red Sox right now are in the Wan Soto situation,
and I think it's going to be really interesting to see.
I the one question I wanted to ask Aiden, I
don't I don't know if you'll be able to answer this,
but so sorry, show Hey with the Dodgers, right, he
(24:50):
cont he had a seven hundred million dollar contract, and
he structured his deal so that his annual salary is
only two million dollars and a lot of the contract
is deferred.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Right. It's interesting. So by time he has left California
and returned home to either Japan or moved to Texas
or Florida, that's the brilliance of his contract.
Speaker 6 (25:16):
So was he at that point he would not have
to pay the California state income tax at that point
when he was receiving the lump sum.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Well, I think that's going to be a question for
California court. And I assumed that he had tax advice
and aiden you can jump in here on this as well.
The argument is going to be, Okay, look, I only
took I played ten years, and I took you know, say,
thirty million dollars over those ten years. So the balance
of my contract I've decided to relocate to either back
(25:47):
home to Japan or Texas. I mean, I assume Japan
probably has some pretty exhorbitant tax rates as well. But
I assume that his lawyers have thought about that, They've
talked to accountants, and eventually I know that the state
of California is not going to let him go easily,
and there'll be a big text case that will happen
ten or fifteen or twenty years from now that you'll
read about and you'll say, hey, I talked with Dan
(26:08):
Ray and Aiden en Wright about that. You know how
it will come out with judges in California. God only knows.
God only knows.
Speaker 6 (26:18):
Right, Well, it's a great show, has always done. It's
actually my first time calling since the pandemic. I still
listen to the show on those Spotify podcast clips. So yeah,
I have a great rest share night, Dan.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Well, we'll give you run of applauses first time. Carlos Soldier,
Thank you very much and come on by soon. Okay.
It's always great to talk to a sports guy, particularly
when we're talking economics, because I don't think there's a
chance at all that Won Soto signs here, and I
think to some extent, the Red Sox would be crazy
to do that. The amount of money that that have
to lay out for him. They have some guys coming
up in uh who are outfielders. They're gonna they would
(26:52):
have to get rid of those guys. The Red Sox
don't need another bad in my opinion, they need some pitching,
and they picked up Chapman yesterday, but he's thirty six
year old relief pitcher. You know. I mean, I'd like
to see a couple of you know, uh, top of
the rotation starters a signed with the socks. That's what
they really need. They'll produce runs with or without Soto
(27:15):
in my opinion, But hey, what do I know. Let's
let's take a quick break. Mike and Peebety and Matt
and Franklin, you guys are coming up next. I got
a little bit of room. Anyone else who wants to
join the conversation six seven two five four ten thirty
one line open there in two lines at six one
seven nine three one ten thirty. We're talking out migration,
(27:35):
people leaving Massachusetts. I mean, it's a thought that that
I've been broadcasting remotely, but I'm in Massachusetts. I'm not
leaving Massachusetts anytime soon. But it's frightening to think what
might happen in terms of the drain that we're going
to have here economically. And believe me, read this this
(27:58):
report at the Pioneer Institute dot com. Uh it's uh no,
it's Pioneer Institute dot org. Excuse me, and if you
read it, it's very readable. By the way, it's Aidan,
it's you are an economist. But it's written so that
people actually can can understand with a lot of charts
(28:19):
and very clear language. So it's a great report and
I hope people will get it. Mass out migration, outflux
of wealth and residence continues and actually is increasing here
at Massachusetts. Back on Nightside after this.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I'm going to get three callers in here for my
guest Aiden enright, talking about the out migration of people
from Massachusetts. They're leaving the state. Mike and Pee Butty. Hey, Mike,
next on Nightside, Say hi to Aiden n Wright. What's
your comment? A question? Please?
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Mike, Hey, how you doing. I'm before getting my Can
you hear me?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Sure? Can? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
I want to thank you.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
I'm an ironworker Local seven. I've been working in the
city of Boston my.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Whole life good and I thank you for what you're doing.
That's tough work, what you guys doing, it's dangerous work.
Thank you for doing that.
Speaker 7 (29:16):
Yeah, what I would like to get to I'm sixty one,
years old today, and I want to talk about families,
and the city is not promoting the families about you know,
we build these big buildings and it's all about the
dogs coming down off the twentieth floor, go down to
the dog park. It's not about kids being in the
family or family raising a family in the city of Boston.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
And I think the younger generation is just so fed.
Speaker 7 (29:44):
Up with it's not about building a family and living
in the city. It's all about a dog park on
these high rises.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
And I really think the city's.
Speaker 7 (29:56):
Got to promote about the family oriented about why don't
we have enough parks for the kids to play in
if we build these big high rises with balconies. Now,
think about these buildings that got balconies. Now, if you
have a four or five year old, then you leave
the kitchen for two or three seconds and that child
(30:16):
gets out and you try only with a balcony. That's
the sad situation.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
And I really think the city's going.
Speaker 7 (30:23):
To promote family about walking down to the park, the playground,
going down the slide, swinging on the swing.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
And I think this is what the younger generation is
fed up about. We are so priced out of the city.
Here it is.
Speaker 7 (30:41):
I worked on a building in South Boston and here
it is fourteenth floor overlooking Logan Airport for one point
three million. One point three million is six hundred thousand
dollars down payment with a nine hundred dollars condo feet
and nine thousand, three hundred dollars a month mortgage. How
(31:03):
is a family a younger generation for that? And now, Mike,
you made you made the city of Boston, may.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Mike, you made a lot of great points. And guess
what that's kind of it's very very close to what
we're talking about tonight. And maybe I will take that
up and take that up as an entire hour topic,
if not later on this week, sometime next week, because
I think it's a great point you made. I really do.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Thank you, thank you, no, no, thank you for taking
my phone call.
Speaker 7 (31:31):
And I love the city of Boston. And I just
see all the younger generation working here and they can't
afford to live in the city, and I just think
we've got to really take a look at downtown Boston
about promote for families and that I was in Brighton.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I was in Brighton this afternoon, Mike, and the only
thing I could see everywhere everywhere in Brighton bike lanes,
bike lanes, bike lanes, bike lanes. Crazy. Thanks Mike, I
talk to you.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Soon, go taking me taking my vocal. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
You're welcome. We go to Matt and Franklin. Matt want
to get you in one more in here, go ahead,
Matt your question of comment for aid and in right.
Speaker 6 (32:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (32:09):
What I'm going to say is the other thing about
mass Cheers is there's all the jobs in the Boston area,
but the only affordable area of mass cheerst is like
Western mass like Stirbridge to Springfield, and then you have
to get to and then your car is now fifty
thousand dollars gas was three dollars a gallon. You can't
get out their holiday weekends or school times, and you
(32:30):
can't really commute. And like we always bash California, but
I mean California at least gets rid of the incumbents
every once in a while on like this state, Like
this state, we.
Speaker 9 (32:40):
Just keep promoting them. And I think that has our
biggest downfall, that we just keep doing it to ourselves
for whatever reason. And I think barr Heally is really
disappointed because she thought she was going to escape the
crisis she helped create and go down to DC and
be the Attorney General. But that's not going to happen.
And then if you also look at some of these
other states, like specifically California, what you're paying here, you
(33:02):
get something that's one hundred and twenty years old, while
out there you get something that's like fifty maybe even newer.
I mean, you might not be living in Beverly Hills,
but it's like one of those things where you're in
like the Central Valley, palm desert and not the commute,
but it's not.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
The same thing.
Speaker 9 (33:16):
Almost you might have a miserable existence, but the weather's nicing.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I guess, yeah, well, I think there's some great.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Points you're making there. And like you said, part of
part of the issue is transportation too. You know, if
you're making fifty sixty thousand dollars, you might not be
able to afford forty fifty sixty thousand dollars. You might
not be able to afford to live in Greater Boston,
in Cambridge or the Boston and the city itself, so
you're living further outside and Boston has some of the
(33:45):
worst traffic in the country we have, you know, crumbling.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
At least transportation around at least.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I saw that. But remember this. The good news is
we get bike lines everywhere. So if you're riding a bike,
you're in great shape. If you're riding a car, you screwed.
As simple as that. Hey, let me get my friend
Nikita in Nikita from mald and my screen actor guild friend. Hi, Nikita,
how are you hi?
Speaker 10 (34:10):
Then thank you for taking my car I've had called
for a while.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, go right ahead, you're all with aiden and.
Speaker 10 (34:16):
Right, yes, I just want to support what I Then
the Pioneers report and give some examples from my family's perspective.
I have sixteen family members who I've left between twenty
twenty and twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Wow.
Speaker 10 (34:30):
So between my brother he used to live in Franklin
and his Irish wife and two children, I mean young adults,
my daughter and husband and children, My niece and husband
and four children. So I'm talking just my family, only
nephew's nieces and brothers, or sixteen of them i'd moved.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, you got you have a many a mini migration
leaving Massachusetts.
Speaker 10 (34:53):
Yeah, just sixteen. But they don't make I think my brother,
my brother in Franklin probably miss six figures. But the
other ones, you know, MIDDI mid mid middle income, you
know they are middle income on professionals. But what being
here on what I'm concerned about is that those who
are living don't have the same caliber those as those
who are coming in. So my brother had a master's,
(35:16):
my daughter has master's degrees, my niece has massage degrees.
So is that the calibers of those who are living
and not the same as those war coming in. If
you see what you know.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Absolutely well, a lot of the folks, a lot of
the folks who have come in Nikita, as you know,
have come in across the border. We have no idea
who they are. We have no idea what skill set
they have. I feel very sorry because I think that
they have been induced to come here. Some of them
came here to escape political violence, and we we should
(35:46):
welcome those folks. But if you're coming here just for
quote unquote a better life, that is not a reason
that you can claim asylum. But yeah, that's but you know,
it's they're just letting everybody in.
Speaker 10 (35:58):
And yes, yeah for sixteen you know, you know they
were born here, they were born in Cambridge you know,
we you know, we came to Cambridge first and then
kept moving until you know, we moved out of this
out of state. But personally, I just regret that I've
lived in Boston. So at my age, I cannot live
now with the good healthcare in Boston, the good you
know system healthcare systems. I would better have stayed in
(36:19):
Boston because I've lost my work. I did not really
have a career. I spent a life in school. You know.
It just bothers me that I did not have a
chance to really, you know, serve my community. So I
think I'm from the neediest community in the in the
in the state.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
So you're a part of my community. You're part of
my community here on Nightside. So you just keep listening
and keep calling and yeah, yeah we were. You know,
maybe maybe I can somehow help you along at some
point you let.
Speaker 10 (36:48):
Me know, Okay, okay, I will. Thank you. Thank you
for taking Michael, thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
You, Aiden, thank you so much. I'd love to have
you back. Let's see if there's a follow up here.
I know you haven't done a lot of radio before,
but I thought you did a great job tonight, So
thank you for joining us, and thank you for producing
this paper. It's a very important paper. Send a copy
to Governor Heally attention. Maybe we could start at the top.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Okay, yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I will continue to be doing a lot more research
on this issue, and so there'll be more talk about
in the future.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Absolutely. If you like to read the paper, it's pretty easy,
about sixteen seventeen pages, really easy, lot of graphs. Just
go to Pioneer Institute dot org. Aiden. Thank you much.
We will talk again. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate
you did a great job. Talk to you soon when
we come back. We're going to talk about President elect
Trump's threat to hamas he has put himself out there.
(37:52):
I'd like to get your reaction. Coming back on Nightside,
It's Night Side with Dan Ray WBZ Constance Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thank you Dan Harkins. You know, on Nightside, one of
the things we like to try to do is make
people think. I don't especially care what you think, meaning
whether you like that candidate or don't like that candidate,
or favor this issue or oppose that issue, It doesn't
matter to me. I just want people who think and
(00:29):
whatever the conclusion comes, whatever conclusion you come to, hopefully
it comes to some thought. So that's what we talk about.
I'm the voice of reason and I want people to think.
And this next guest, I think is going to make
all of us think quite a bit. Massachusetts as a
state has a lot of natural resources. We have a
(00:49):
lot of economic resources, great universities, great colleges, pretty good
road system, we have MBTA, we have a major airport,
but we have various industries. We have you know, the
beauty of Cape Corn in the summertime, the beauty of
the Berkshires and the fall and winter, and we have
(01:12):
so much going for us in this state of six
point seven million people. But we are in a state
that is in big trouble. That's big trouble with a
capital B and a Capital t and to talk about
that is my next guest, Aiden Enwright. Aiden works with
(01:32):
the Pioneer Institute, which is a think tank here in Massachusetts,
and he has just written a very interesting study about
the Massachusetts the amount of out migration that is occurring
in Massachusetts and the implications thereof. So let me first
(01:54):
of all, welcome Aiden, Aiden Enwright, first time here night side.
Thanks very much for joining us tonight. Whenever we think
about a think tank, we think about, oh boy, this
must be something that's very difficult to comprehend, but it's
really not, and this is an amazing report that has
just been released. First of all, explain to us what
(02:16):
the phrase out migration means. We're not talking about like
the migration of the swallows to Capistrano or the migration
of the sharks away from the cape heading south once
the water starts to cool up, you know, get really
cold out there. What's what's economic out migration mean?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, good evening.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I thought for a moment we had lost it before
we started there, and I'm sorry, go ahead, welcome, I'm.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Sorry about that. So when we talk about out migration,
we're talking about residents picking up their roots and leaving
the state, And there's obviously a lot of reasons that
someone might do that. And like you said, Master'stts is
a great state for a lot of different reasons. We
have great jobs, we have a lot of economic opportunities,
(03:09):
we have the Berkshires, wonderful natural resources. But there are
also a lot of issues that are affecting everyday people.
The cost of living here, the cost of housing, taxes
that are pushing people out of the state, and they're
deciding to locate elsewhere that's more affordable.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
So this what attracted you that you've done a study
on this? What it? There must have been something that
attracted you to this study and and and said to yourself, well,
well let me see that if I can prove or
disprove this thesis.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Yeah, I think we got a little of.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
A delay here.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Do you want to hit it right now?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Let me ask you, there seems to be a delay here.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
You want to hit I'm just not myself.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
You're just on your cell phone, Okay, no problem, I'm just.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
On my.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Go ahead, apologies about that. So I think the issue
is that really attracted me to this and to the
pioneer in researching this is that a lot of people
across the state are kind of feeling the cost pressures,
and we wanted to see to what extent people were
(04:30):
making decisions about leaving Massachusetts as a result of those.
So I think everybody understands that we're having a bit
of a housing crunch. Housing is very unaffordable. You know,
the median rent for a two venter apartment in Greater
Boston is thirty two hundred dollars a month. It's the
(04:52):
you know, single family homes are difficult to buy because
there's so expensive. There's a lot of taxes. Master's is
very uncompetitive with other states in our tax rates, and
we want to know that it's a very difficult decision
for people, for someone to uproot themselves and leave, and
(05:12):
we want to know to what extent these factors are
pushing people out and not attracting other people back in.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Okay, some of the high tax states around the country.
We think of New York, California, and Hawaii and you
mentioned them in your report. They have a drain of people.
We have a drain of people. We do not have
large families anymore, with five or six kids. That's a
rare exception. So we actually at a time when we
(05:42):
should be increasing population, although we are, we have had
an influx of people coming to the state recently from
across the border and from Texas and places like that.
Bottom line is, we are not growing as a state,
and we haven't been growing as a state compared to
other states for a long time. And the reason I
know that is when I started in this business a
(06:03):
long time ago, we used to have sixteen members of
the House of Representatives. We're now down to nine. Because
of course that's all based on population around the country.
But what you found was that thousands of people are
leaving Massachusetts, people who have established themselves. And the thing
(06:24):
that's most frightening is that, based upon the graphs and
charts that I've seen of the people who were leaving
Massachusetts who left in twenty twenty two, more than fifty
percent of those people who left Massachusetts were high earners,
meaning they were making over two hundred thousand dollars two
(06:45):
hundred thousand dollars or more a year. And when you
add in the people who were making between one hundred
and two hundred thousand dollars, which is also a high earner,
you can add another twenty five percent. So in in fact,
about eighty percent of the of the people who have
left Massachusetts in that year twenty twenty two, eighty percent
(07:09):
of them are making upwards of over one hundred thousand dollars.
That's an incredible drain of income and ultimately tax revenue.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Right, yeah, exactly, And that's amounted to about seventy one
thousand people more people leaving the state than coming in.
Since from twenty twenty to twenty twenty two, likely something
around the lines of five hundred million dollars of tax revenue.
(07:42):
That has left eleven billion dollars in total income those
tax filers have brought with them to other states when
they left. That's a significant loss for the state.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Okay, we're going to drill down on some of the
costs of some of the reasons that the people are leaving.
And look that there's a bunch of reasons that maybe
some people decide they want to leave for the weather. Well,
we can't change the weather. But the tax structure and
all of that in Massachusetts compared to other states is important.
We'll talk about that. My guest is with us. He's
(08:15):
with the Pioneer Institute. Aiden En Wright. Are you are
you I assume you're an economist state correct, Yes.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I'm an economic research associate, so economist by training.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Okay, excellent. We'll take a very quick break here at nightside.
If you'd like to join the conversation and talk about
maybe your decision to leave a state or your decision
to stay in a state, feel free. I think it's
something we need to think about here in Massachusetts because
most of us think about our own set of circumstances,
and either we're happy with our own set of circumstances
(08:49):
or unhappy or somewhere in the middle. But we're surrounded
by people who are some doing better than us, some
doing worse than us. All so, now a bunch of
people who are very successful and also young. We're talking
about people in their twenties and thirties who have decided
Massachusetts is not quite their cup of tea. If you'd
(09:11):
like to add your voice to the conversation, all you
gotta do is dial six one, seven, two, five, four
ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten
thirty back with Aiden en Wright. This this research study
is available from Pioneer Institute. UH It's It's It's It's
good read it's it's a sad story, but it's a
(09:33):
good read. Back on Nightside Rent after a couple of
brief messages.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
to night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
With me is aiden Enwright. He's with the Pioneer Institute
and he has an author uh an article entitled mass
out Migration Massachusetts out Migration, Outfit of Wealth and Residents continues.
This is a white paper. It is available by going
(10:06):
to Pioneer Institute dot org. You can read it for yourself.
But I just think that when you listen and well,
when you just read, let me read a little bit
of this. Out migration from Massachusetts has been increasing consistently
over the last decade, but since the beginning of the
COVID nineteen pandemic in twenty twenty, out migration has surged.
(10:28):
From twenty twelve to twenty nineteen, Massachusetts lost ten billion
dollars in net adjusted gross income agi from emigrating taxpayers.
In just three years. From twenty twenty to twenty twenty two,
the state lost an even greater amount ten point six billion,
So it's accelerating. The state lost three point nine billion
(10:50):
in adjusted gross income in twenty twenty two alone. Over
twenty twelve to twenty twenty two period, total AGI loss
increased fourfold. And to make this wave of outer state
migration even a greater concern, it is concentrated among wealthier
(11:11):
tax filers with at least two hundred thousand dollars a
yearly income and residents aged twenty six to thirty four.
This is a trend, and the sub trend is fighting.
This is not older people in their sixties, seventies, and
eighties deciding to DeCamp to Florida so they can beat
(11:32):
the common health on the estate tax provisions that exist
here in Massachusetts. Is when you started on this and
you didn't have these numbers. This sounds to me like
this is a critical problem that no one, no one
in the comonwalth of Massachusetts is currently addressing. How right?
How wrong am I on that point?
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, it's kind of staggering these trends. You know, Massachusetts
has been using people to a certain extent for many years.
New Hampshire, for example, one out of every four residents
of New Hampshire were originally born in Massachusetts. That's how
many people we've lost in New Hampshire. But the huge
(12:16):
surge in the last couple of years is like something
that we haven't seen before, and there's not really a
lot that's been going on to address it. The legislature
has tried a couple of different solutions, but just not
to the extent that's necessary to exact to you know,
(12:38):
kind of stem this tide of people leaving the state.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Well, we just on a ballot initiative in twenty twenty
two approved the so called millionaires tax, so that now
people who are earning over a million dollars, instead of
paying five with the flag graduated state income tax, they're
now charged nine percent on anything over a million dollars.
(13:01):
And people who make that sort of money, they're not dumb,
and they're not going to stick around in Massachusetts and
pay really the equivalent about if someone makes a professional athlete,
for example, who makes thirty million dollars, they're going to
pay approximately ten million dollars, well, not ten million, ten
(13:25):
percent of that thirty million dollars, three million dollars in
state taxes in Massachusetts playing for the Red Sox, the Bruins,
the Patriots, or the Celtics if they played in Florida,
or in Texas or in Tennessee, that money would not
go to the state because or they don't have they
don't have the equivalent of state income taxes there. And
(13:47):
by the way, that is going to cost our professional
sports teams. And it's already been raised by some of
the professional sports agents. And I know most people could
care less about the the athlete who make you know,
mega millions of dollars. But we've always prided ourselves on
having you know, great competitive teams, and we're going to
(14:10):
be losing a lot of these athletes when it comes
time for contract renewals on this Why wouldn't athletes stay
in Massachusetts play for Massachusetts team knowing that essentially ten
percent of their salary is going to go out the
window before they even get it. Explain that one to
my audience.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
That's something that a lot of people in the sports
scene have raised, something that Phil Policheck has mentioned recently
that it's been harder to kind of attract star athletes
into Massachusetts because of the additional tax. And there's also
been there are certified public accountants in Massachusetts and they've
(14:53):
recently been surveying a lot of their high income clients,
and sixty four percent of them said that the surtax
alone is a reason that they're considering leaving the state.
And it's not just the surtax. A lot of states,
more than half of the states in the country, don't
have an estate tax attacks on someone's home after they
(15:16):
die and other wealth Massachusetts does, and it has one
of the lowest thresholds in the country. We also have
a short term capital gains tax. Most states align their
capital gains tax at the same level for short term
and long term. We also have other business taxes that
(15:38):
disportunately affect high income people here, and so it's kind
of a confluence of factors, and it just doesn't make
economic sense to stay here or to locate here, especially
if you're like an athlete.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, and I think that we have a lot of
politicians who look at the wealthy people in Massachusetts as
cash cows, and and in that group, obviously you have
a lot of professional athletes who earn their money here.
So therefore they are caught in that in that dilemma.
But when they have a choice to play for another
(16:12):
team in another another state that is much more tax friendly,
they're going to relocate. It's it's as simple as that.
My guest is Aiden, and right, Aiden, we have a
whole bunch of phone calls here and I want to
get to all of them. Mike, Matt Sorgia, and we'll
start with Kathleen. You can ask questions, you can make comments. Uh,
(16:33):
let's start the conversation part of our interview with Aiden
and Wright of the Pioneer Institute right after the news
at the bottom of the hour. My name is Dan
Ray and this is Nightside, and we're trying to make
you think. Okay, that's all we're trying to do. You
may come to the absolute different conclusion than Aidan and
(16:54):
I probably would come to. But as long as you
think and get and get to that conclusion, I'm We'll
be back on Nightside after this.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w z
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Britdie takes some phone calls. My guest is Aiden Enright.
He has produced a very thoughtful paper for the Pioneer Institute,
which you can read yourself at Pioneer Institute dot org.
It is just it's entitled mass Out Migration Paper. It
is a frightening look into the last twelve or so
(17:32):
years in this commonwealth under the leadership of both Republican
and Democratic governors. By the way, it doesn't really matter
if the legislature itself is a way to the left
politically in Massachusetts. And at this point, people, particularly young
(17:52):
people according to this report, meaning in the ages of
twenty six to thirty four, who are making over two
hundred thousand dollars a leaving this eight and that does
not argue well for the future. So let's go first
off to New Jersey where Kathleen awaits. Hey, Kathleen, welcome
to Night Side. Thanks for calling in. You're all with
Aiden En Wright.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Hi, Dan, can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I can hear you just perfectly. I don't know have
I ever had the pleasure of you calling this show
from Jersey before?
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Yes, I have a house in Massachusetts and I also
have one down in South Jersey, and tonight I'm driving
down to the South Jersey home.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
All right, Well, welcome, welcome. I'm delighted that you're joining
us and you've got Aiden En Wright's full attention. What's
your comment or question?
Speaker 5 (18:36):
Yes, so I'm curious to know. I think I've seen
it from experience. I'm older than that twenty eight and
thirty four.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Age groups aren't well lately, and I.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
Know, h serious place to be that young again. But
I've noticed a lot of the twenty age to thirty
four year old, especially in that income bracket, are working
for certain intersties like high tech pharmaceuticals, and those companies
are relocating out of mass for a number of reasons.
(19:08):
And I've noticed that they're like moving, especially Texas, Arizona,
parts of the Midwest. Could that be why we have
this influx of people in that gage group migrating out
stands well, let's.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
See, is this a function of individual choices or a
company decisions to relocate that's Kathleen's question, or a combination thereof,
and which is which is a heavier factor?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's some kind of
combination of the two. Obviously, there are certain businesses relocating
to states that have lower taxes corporate taxes and other
kinds of things, and where jobs are, that's where people
are going to locate to. You also kind of have
this rise of remote work. There's a lot of fully
remote workers in Massachusetts or even people who are working
(19:59):
for companies that are located here have additional freedom, especially
those younger people, to relocate to more cost effective states
where they can have a Massachusetts income but live somewhere
where that income goes a lot further. So I think
for a lot of people it's kind of a no
(20:20):
brainer decision.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
But a lot of those people, if they're working for
Massachusetts companies, even though they're living in Florida or Arizona,
they're paying state taxes to Massachusetts. If that money is
earned and paid by Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Corporation, yeah, they would be paying some state taxes, but
any of their other contributions, and if they're bringing some
other kind of business with them, or the money that
they're spending in their local communities and other things like that,
that's leading the state.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Okay, Kathleen, that's a really good question. You got to
follow up.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Yeah, I wondered then if this age group between twenty
eight and thirty four, let's be honest, that's usually a
child bearing age or a you know, child making age,
then are they not enrolling their children in Massachusetts schools?
For instance, in a lot of cities and sounds like
(21:18):
I live at my home in Kingsboro, we're building a
very large middle school to accommodate the number of children
that they're projecting to go into the middle school. So
now I've seen around me all these different communities building
no middle schools, elementary schools, high schools, projecting these children
and now there's going to be dropped in the population.
(21:39):
So then what impact does that have on the rate payers?
Stay behind dan because these schools have been built.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Now it's not going to get better.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Go ahead, No, certainly.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
You know, the child age population in Massachusetts as largely decreasing.
A lot of people are deciding to go to different
states because if you're going to buy a single family
home or something like that and you want to raise
a family, it's a lot more affordable elsewhere, and so
the people who are here for making those types of
investments are going to shoulder more of that burden and
(22:17):
that's not there.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
And there's also a lot of parents in Massachusetts who
are now homeschooling kids as well, So that's a factor
in terms of dwindling a public school population. Kathleen, I
loved your questions, and I thank you for being such
a loyal nightside listener. How's the signal coming in in
your car down in Jersey.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
I'm actually coming in pretty good consider and I'm going
through thirty five to forty mile an hour on Wednesday,
but at least I'm not getting to know.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Okay, great, We'll have safe travels and we'll be here
till midnight for you to keep your company.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Okay, all right, thank you.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
It's a great topic and I appreciate the time.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Thanks, Kathleen, appreciate your call. Let's keep rolling here. Going
to go next to a sword jump who is in Mansfield, Massachusetts,
a little closer to home. So what's You're welcome? How
are you?
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Hey?
Speaker 6 (23:05):
Dan? How's it going tonight?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's going great, going great, Sogia. You're on with aiden En? Right,
what's your comment of question?
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (23:13):
Really quick, Aiden, I was able to find the piece,
so it's definitely an interesting piece and I want to
read it when I get a chance. But you know, Dan,
I'm obviously a big Boston sports fan and wanted to
kind of attack it from the sports perspective. And you know,
I don't know if you can really compare like the
California tax situation to Massachusetts, but like for example.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
California, California is even worse than Massachusetts. But but, but Florida, Texas.
There are a bunch of states where professional sports teams
in you know, various leagues exist if it's a choice,
if taxes, taxes in California, that's why a lot of
people are leaving California. They're losing population out there. They're
(23:59):
faster than Massachusets on a per capita basis, right, And you.
Speaker 6 (24:03):
Know, as a big Celtics fan, you know, we're very
fortunate that JB and JT locked up those massive kind
of extensions. But they've actually done kind of some calculations
on that the take home of these big contracts, Like
you're lucky if you take even fifty percent home. And
(24:26):
you know, it's getting to a point where, like the
Patriots are coming up on a big off season, so
you hope that you're able to get the big guys. Obviously,
the Red Sox right now are in the Wan Soto situation,
and I think it's going to be really interesting to see.
I the one question I wanted to ask Aiden, I
don't I don't know if you'll be able to answer this,
but so sorry, show Hey with the Dodgers, right, he
(24:50):
cont he had a seven hundred million dollar contract, and
he structured his deal so that his annual salary is
only two million dollars and a lot of the contract
is deferred.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Right. It's interesting. So by time he has left California
and returned home to either Japan or moved to Texas
or Florida, that's the brilliance of his contract.
Speaker 6 (25:16):
So was he at that point he would not have
to pay the California state income tax at that point
when he was receiving the lump sum.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Well, I think that's going to be a question for
California court. And I assumed that he had tax advice
and aiden you can jump in here on this as well.
The argument is going to be, Okay, look, I only
took I played ten years, and I took you know, say,
thirty million dollars over those ten years. So the balance
of my contract I've decided to relocate to either back
(25:47):
home to Japan or Texas. I mean, I assume Japan
probably has some pretty exhorbitant tax rates as well. But
I assume that his lawyers have thought about that, They've
talked to accountants, and eventually I know that the state
of California is not going to let him go easily,
and there'll be a big text case that will happen
ten or fifteen or twenty years from now that you'll
read about and you'll say, hey, I talked with Dan
(26:08):
Ray and Aiden en Wright about that. You know how
it will come out with judges in California. God only knows.
God only knows.
Speaker 6 (26:18):
Right, Well, it's a great show, has always done. It's
actually my first time calling since the pandemic. I still
listen to the show on those Spotify podcast clips. So yeah,
I have a great rest share night, Dan.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Well, we'll give you run of applauses first time. Carlos Soldier,
Thank you very much and come on by soon. Okay.
It's always great to talk to a sports guy, particularly
when we're talking economics, because I don't think there's a
chance at all that Won Soto signs here, and I
think to some extent, the Red Sox would be crazy
to do that. The amount of money that that have
to lay out for him. They have some guys coming
up in uh who are outfielders. They're gonna they would
(26:52):
have to get rid of those guys. The Red Sox
don't need another bad in my opinion, they need some pitching,
and they picked up Chapman yesterday, but he's thirty six
year old relief pitcher. You know. I mean, I'd like
to see a couple of you know, uh, top of
the rotation starters a signed with the socks. That's what
they really need. They'll produce runs with or without Soto
(27:15):
in my opinion, But hey, what do I know. Let's
let's take a quick break. Mike and Peebety and Matt
and Franklin, you guys are coming up next. I got
a little bit of room. Anyone else who wants to
join the conversation six seven two five four ten thirty
one line open there in two lines at six one
seven nine three one ten thirty. We're talking out migration,
(27:35):
people leaving Massachusetts. I mean, it's a thought that that
I've been broadcasting remotely, but I'm in Massachusetts. I'm not
leaving Massachusetts anytime soon. But it's frightening to think what
might happen in terms of the drain that we're going
to have here economically. And believe me, read this this
(27:58):
report at the Pioneer Institute dot com. Uh it's uh no,
it's Pioneer Institute dot org. Excuse me, and if you
read it, it's very readable. By the way, it's Aidan,
it's you are an economist. But it's written so that
people actually can can understand with a lot of charts
(28:19):
and very clear language. So it's a great report and
I hope people will get it. Mass out migration, outflux
of wealth and residence continues and actually is increasing here
at Massachusetts. Back on Nightside after this.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I'm going to get three callers in here for my
guest Aiden enright, talking about the out migration of people
from Massachusetts. They're leaving the state. Mike and Pee Butty. Hey, Mike,
next on Nightside, Say hi to Aiden n Wright. What's
your comment? A question? Please?
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Mike, Hey, how you doing. I'm before getting my Can
you hear me?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Sure? Can? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
I want to thank you.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
I'm an ironworker Local seven. I've been working in the
city of Boston my.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Whole life good and I thank you for what you're doing.
That's tough work, what you guys doing, it's dangerous work.
Thank you for doing that.
Speaker 7 (29:16):
Yeah, what I would like to get to I'm sixty one,
years old today, and I want to talk about families,
and the city is not promoting the families about you know,
we build these big buildings and it's all about the
dogs coming down off the twentieth floor, go down to
the dog park. It's not about kids being in the
family or family raising a family in the city of Boston.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
And I think the younger generation is just so fed.
Speaker 7 (29:44):
Up with it's not about building a family and living
in the city. It's all about a dog park on
these high rises.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
And I really think the city's.
Speaker 7 (29:56):
Got to promote about the family oriented about why don't
we have enough parks for the kids to play in
if we build these big high rises with balconies. Now,
think about these buildings that got balconies. Now, if you
have a four or five year old, then you leave
the kitchen for two or three seconds and that child
(30:16):
gets out and you try only with a balcony. That's
the sad situation.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
And I really think the city's going.
Speaker 7 (30:23):
To promote family about walking down to the park, the playground,
going down the slide, swinging on the swing.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
And I think this is what the younger generation is
fed up about. We are so priced out of the city.
Here it is.
Speaker 7 (30:41):
I worked on a building in South Boston and here
it is fourteenth floor overlooking Logan Airport for one point
three million. One point three million is six hundred thousand
dollars down payment with a nine hundred dollars condo feet
and nine thousand, three hundred dollars a month mortgage. How
(31:03):
is a family a younger generation for that? And now, Mike,
you made you made the city of Boston, may.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Mike, you made a lot of great points. And guess
what that's kind of it's very very close to what
we're talking about tonight. And maybe I will take that
up and take that up as an entire hour topic,
if not later on this week, sometime next week, because
I think it's a great point you made. I really do.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Thank you, thank you, no, no, thank you for taking
my phone call.
Speaker 7 (31:31):
And I love the city of Boston. And I just
see all the younger generation working here and they can't
afford to live in the city, and I just think
we've got to really take a look at downtown Boston
about promote for families and that I was in Brighton.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I was in Brighton this afternoon, Mike, and the only
thing I could see everywhere everywhere in Brighton bike lanes,
bike lanes, bike lanes, bike lanes. Crazy. Thanks Mike, I
talk to you.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Soon, go taking me taking my vocal. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
You're welcome. We go to Matt and Franklin. Matt want
to get you in one more in here, go ahead,
Matt your question of comment for aid and in right.
Speaker 6 (32:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (32:09):
What I'm going to say is the other thing about
mass Cheers is there's all the jobs in the Boston area,
but the only affordable area of mass cheerst is like
Western mass like Stirbridge to Springfield, and then you have
to get to and then your car is now fifty
thousand dollars gas was three dollars a gallon. You can't
get out their holiday weekends or school times, and you
(32:30):
can't really commute. And like we always bash California, but
I mean California at least gets rid of the incumbents
every once in a while on like this state, Like
this state, we.
Speaker 9 (32:40):
Just keep promoting them. And I think that has our
biggest downfall, that we just keep doing it to ourselves
for whatever reason. And I think barr Heally is really
disappointed because she thought she was going to escape the
crisis she helped create and go down to DC and
be the Attorney General. But that's not going to happen.
And then if you also look at some of these
other states, like specifically California, what you're paying here, you
(33:02):
get something that's one hundred and twenty years old, while
out there you get something that's like fifty maybe even newer.
I mean, you might not be living in Beverly Hills,
but it's like one of those things where you're in
like the Central Valley, palm desert and not the commute,
but it's not.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
The same thing.
Speaker 9 (33:16):
Almost you might have a miserable existence, but the weather's nicing.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I guess, yeah, well, I think there's some great.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Points you're making there. And like you said, part of
part of the issue is transportation too. You know, if
you're making fifty sixty thousand dollars, you might not be
able to afford forty fifty sixty thousand dollars. You might
not be able to afford to live in Greater Boston,
in Cambridge or the Boston and the city itself, so
you're living further outside and Boston has some of the
(33:45):
worst traffic in the country we have, you know, crumbling.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
At least transportation around at least.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I saw that. But remember this. The good news is
we get bike lines everywhere. So if you're riding a bike,
you're in great shape. If you're riding a car, you screwed.
As simple as that. Hey, let me get my friend
Nikita in Nikita from mald and my screen actor guild friend. Hi, Nikita,
how are you hi?
Speaker 10 (34:10):
Then thank you for taking my car I've had called
for a while.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, go right ahead, you're all with aiden and.
Speaker 10 (34:16):
Right, yes, I just want to support what I Then
the Pioneers report and give some examples from my family's perspective.
I have sixteen family members who I've left between twenty
twenty and twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Wow.
Speaker 10 (34:30):
So between my brother he used to live in Franklin
and his Irish wife and two children, I mean young adults,
my daughter and husband and children, My niece and husband
and four children. So I'm talking just my family, only
nephew's nieces and brothers, or sixteen of them i'd moved.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, you got you have a many a mini migration
leaving Massachusetts.
Speaker 10 (34:53):
Yeah, just sixteen. But they don't make I think my brother,
my brother in Franklin probably miss six figures. But the
other ones, you know, MIDDI mid mid middle income, you
know they are middle income on professionals. But what being
here on what I'm concerned about is that those who
are living don't have the same caliber those as those
who are coming in. So my brother had a master's,
(35:16):
my daughter has master's degrees, my niece has massage degrees.
So is that the calibers of those who are living
and not the same as those war coming in. If
you see what you know.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Absolutely well, a lot of the folks, a lot of
the folks who have come in Nikita, as you know,
have come in across the border. We have no idea
who they are. We have no idea what skill set
they have. I feel very sorry because I think that
they have been induced to come here. Some of them
came here to escape political violence, and we we should
(35:46):
welcome those folks. But if you're coming here just for
quote unquote a better life, that is not a reason
that you can claim asylum. But yeah, that's but you know,
it's they're just letting everybody in.
Speaker 10 (35:58):
And yes, yeah for sixteen you know, you know they
were born here, they were born in Cambridge you know,
we you know, we came to Cambridge first and then
kept moving until you know, we moved out of this
out of state. But personally, I just regret that I've
lived in Boston. So at my age, I cannot live
now with the good healthcare in Boston, the good you
know system healthcare systems. I would better have stayed in
(36:19):
Boston because I've lost my work. I did not really
have a career. I spent a life in school. You know.
It just bothers me that I did not have a
chance to really, you know, serve my community. So I
think I'm from the neediest community in the in the
in the state.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
So you're a part of my community. You're part of
my community here on Nightside. So you just keep listening
and keep calling and yeah, yeah we were. You know,
maybe maybe I can somehow help you along at some
point you let.
Speaker 10 (36:48):
Me know, Okay, okay, I will. Thank you. Thank you
for taking Michael, thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
You, Aiden, thank you so much. I'd love to have
you back. Let's see if there's a follow up here.
I know you haven't done a lot of radio before,
but I thought you did a great job tonight, So
thank you for joining us, and thank you for producing
this paper. It's a very important paper. Send a copy
to Governor Heally attention. Maybe we could start at the top.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Okay, yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
I appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I will continue to be doing a lot more research
on this issue, and so there'll be more talk about
in the future.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Absolutely. If you like to read the paper, it's pretty easy,
about sixteen seventeen pages, really easy, lot of graphs. Just
go to Pioneer Institute dot org. Aiden. Thank you much.
We will talk again. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate
you did a great job. Talk to you soon when
we come back. We're going to talk about President elect
Trump's threat to hamas he has put himself out there.
(37:52):
I'd like to get your reaction. Coming back on Nightside,
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