November 21, 2025 • 36 mins
We kicked off the program with four news stories and different guests on the stories we think you need to know about!
Captain's Dinner: A Shipwreck, an Act of Cannibalism, and a Murder Trial That Changed Legal History!
Guest: Adam Cohen - acclaimed journalist, Pulitzer Prize juror, and New York Times bestselling author
Why a 50-year mortgage - though controversial - may actually protect middle-class families during economic uncertainty?
Guest: Lance Morgan - financial expert and the Founder & CEO of College Funding Secrets. A Certified Financial Educator and best-selling author
Dronabinol May Be Safe And Effective Pharmacologic Option For Managing Agitation In Adults With Alzheimer’s Disease, Study Suggests
Guest: Brent Forester, MD, Psychiatrist-in-Chief and Chair of Psychiatry at Tufts Medical Center and Director of Behavioral Health for Tufts Medicine & senior author on the paper, which found that synthetic THC was safe and effective for reducing agitation in adults with Alzheimer’s disease
5 Ways to Keep the Peace at the Thanksgiving Table
Guest: Juliana Tafur - Inaugural director of the Bridging Differences program at UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Center, where she leads the center’s bridging work in communities, universities, and organizations. A TEDx speaker, Emmy-nominated producer, and 2021–22 Obama Foundation Scholar, she creates experiences that bring people together across differences to foster connection and belonging.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's nice eyes with Dan Ray. I'm telling you easy
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
All right, Thanksgiving? Now about what six days away? I
can taste that turkey and stuffing.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
My name is Dan Ray. I'm the host of night Side.
Rob Brooks, our partner is back in the control room
at the big radio station in Medford, Massachusetts. He's there
and he will get everything going perfectly tonight, no doubt
about it. The best producer in radio as far as
I'm concerned, been with me now for oh goodness, it's
(00:33):
gotta be close to fifteen years. He does a great job.
My name is Dan Ray, and I am the host,
and you, of course are the listeners, and you have
a big role to play. After nine o'clock you can
join us and ask questions of our guests. We're going
to be talking about sewage going into the Charles River.
I was surprised to find out that sewage bross sewage's
(00:55):
still going into the Charles River. And we're gonna be
talking with Emily Norton. She's the executive director of the
Child River Watershed of Watershed Association. As a matter of fact,
the MWRA apparently wants more sewage going into the Charles River.
I thought, I didn't. I don't understand it. We'll figure
it out. I watched the LoveFest between President Trump and
(01:16):
the mayor elect of New York City, jo Ron Mamdani today.
It was like a weird experience. We're going to talk
about that at ten o'clock and then at eleven o'clock tonight,
at the twentieth hour of the week, we will do
a brushes with celebrity, and I think we're going to
have some prizes during that hour night side tote bags
(01:39):
for you. If you are one of the we'll say
one of the two or three best, or three or four,
a five best. I'm gonna give away some tote bags
which you can which you can use proudly as you
go shopping this holiday season. We will begin with I
think what will be a fascinating book. I saw this one.
(02:00):
I haven't read it, but the title is Captain's Dinner,
A shipwreck, an act of cannibalism, and a murder trial
that changed legal history. With us is the acclaimed journalist
Pull of Surprise winning author and New York Times best
selling author, A Pull of Surprise Juror. I believe I'm
sorry I've misread that Adam Cohen, Adam, welcome to Nightside.
(02:24):
How are you.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Oh great, it's my pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, I'll tell you it's a pleasure to have you.
I've never heard of this story. And besides being a journalist,
I also happen to be a lawyer, member of the bar,
and this is fascinating. Just tell us the story briefly.
This was a tragedy which was compounded by an act
of cannibalism and a murder trial. It's the pieces of
(02:51):
this book are incredible.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Go ahead, actually just start by saying that this is
a book that was really started in Boston because I
went to law school there, and first year of law school,
my roommate and I gave a Halloween party. Come as
your favorite legal case or legal doctrine. And my roommate,
who's now a federal judge, went out and got chicken
parts and ketchup, sprinkled the ketchup by the chicken parts,
(03:14):
and came as this cannibal captain. That was the first
time I heard about this case. I went a spoiling
cambridge that you might have heard of.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
One is that? The one? Is that? The one that
competes with my law school, Boston University for the top
law school in America.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
I think it does. Yeah, yeah, So we gave a
little Halloween party and there was the Capital Captain. So
it's just as you say, it's a crazy story of
four men who were hired to deliver a yacht from
London to Australia. And it was smooth sailing until they
passed the equator. Then they hit a big storm, huge wave, shipwreck.
(03:51):
They escaped in a lifeboat without food and water, and
they're drifting for a few weeks and eventually the captain
decides to kill the cabin boy. And there was something
called the custom of the sea. It was there were
traditions of cannibalism at sea when you had a shipwreck.
But they did not draw straws as they usually do.
This time. The captain just said, hey, cabin boy sick,
(04:12):
he doesn't have any wife for children, let's eat him.
They did.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
They were probably probably what he said what he might
have said, Adam, he said, let's let's have him for dinner.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Exactly like itself, like an exactly captain's dinner on croups
is quite fancy. This was a little more low brow.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah. Yeah, So let me ask you, how did they
kill the cabin boy or did they claim that the
cabin boy died of natural causes lack of oxygen?
Speaker 4 (04:44):
So this gets a little grim. But what they did
is actually the captains split his He took out a
pen knife slit his throat. And the reason he did
that is they were actually more in danger of dying
of thirst out of hunger. You die of thirst a
lot more quickly than you die of hunger, so they
really need to get the blood, so they split it throat.
It's grim. It's grim. And then they captured the blood
(05:05):
and drank that, and then they moved on to a
couple of the internal organs while they were still warm,
and then they ate most of the cabin boy before
they were rescued.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So how much longer would it they had to have
held on if they had not killed How soon were
they rescued after dinner?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
You know, pretty close? Two days after dinner it rained
quite a bit, so it could have gotten water. Four
days after dinner, a German ship that was passing by
rescue them. So we'll never know for sure, but I
think they could have made it, all four of them, survived.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Okay, So they get back to England, I assume and
at someone they didn't do like a secret, we got
to keep this secret that somebody must have spilled the beans.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Well, you know they again talking about right away they
told the crew of the German ship that rescued them
because they were kind of proud of it. They thought
it was a great tale of the sea. And as
I say, okay, common, it was common, you know, and
they might have.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Thought they were an international waters too. Who knows, I mean,
I don't know who who? Where was it? Where was
I assume the case was tried in England?
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Yeah, that's correct. So they were. They were brought back
to Falmouth, England, and they uh and and that's where
all began, and that's where they were first first put
on a kind of hearing, and they said we're gonna
go ahead and charge with murders.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So okay. So so the the captain who who you know,
basically in effect set the table for dinner. Uh, he
took the fall. He gets convicted. Uh are the others
who were who were still alive, are they convicted as well?
Or are they even charged?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Great? Great, great question. Right, So the one of the
others was, so Captain Dudley was and his first meet
Stevens was as well. So the case is called Dudley
and Stevens. There's a third guy, Brooks. Brooks said from
the beginning he did not want to kill anyone and
he did not want to be killed. And when they
were killing the cabin boy, Stevens was actually standing there
ready to hold his legs down part of the conspiracy,
(07:02):
but he didn't need to do it, as he turned out.
But Brooks was covering his head with a raincoat because
he did not want to be involved. So when they
get back, they don't actually charge Brooks, they can the
lead prosecution witness, as it turns out.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, he also could have planned to use a vegan
and I think that would have got him off. So
what were the sentences rendered by the court. This, I
assume was without without jury or no.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Well, so it's really funny and tricky that there was
a jury, but the judge was so afraid that the
jury might acquit, you know, to a jury nullification thing
because a lot of the working class people were sympathetic
to the canals, that he actually didn't let the jury decide.
He just let them find the facts and it went
to a special panel of judges. The judges convicted convicted
(07:48):
them of murder, and at that time in England there
was only one punishment for murder, which was death. So
then it all came down to appeal from Mercy to
Queen Victoria. That was the way it worked. Then you
get definalties that you would hope that the Queen would
compete your sentence, and in this case she did.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Well. It's interesting because I would have I would have bet,
knowing a little bit about the Victorian age, that she
was not like a party person from what I understand,
and I suspected that she would have gone by the book.
So good for them. So he lived a happy life
or did he have to spend twenty years or something
in the in the slamm or in the.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Brig He got six months in prison, but he did
not live a happy life. Another crazy aspect of this
story is he moves to Australia, which is what he
kind of always wanted to do to stry his life over,
and then there's a rabonic plague outbreak around nineteen early
nineteen hundreds and he's literally the first person to die
of it. In Australia. Crazy.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Wow, what a great what a great story, and what
a what a great book. Now you went to Harvard
across the river, obviously you couldn't get into be law school.
I'm sad to say, but what are you doing to
your practicing? You're in Boston. Where where do you?
Speaker 4 (09:08):
I mean New York? I mean you're I did practice
law for while, but then I became a journalist. I
was like a Time magazine in New York Times for
a while, and now now I'm writing books my thing.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
That's not bad. I'm still a journalist and I'm still
a lawyer, still an active member of the bar here
in Massachuseto.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
For you, Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Absolutely, don't quit the day job. Don't quit the day No, no, no,
no no no.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I've only you put There was a point in time
when my wife said to me, you got to pick
one or the other. And I was an on air
reporter for the CBS station here in Boston. When did
you get out of law school? You probably? I was
with WBZ. I'm still with WBZ. We were right across
the river from you. Guys. What you get out of
law school?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I got out many years ago. This is actually my
sixth book. So if that kind of dates me, it's
been I'm.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Not going to tell you, but I got out of
law school in the seventies, So there's.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
No way, there's no way.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
You have nothing to be ashamed of.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
You you're a nubius contract.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
What a great story, and you tell it. Well, I
know it's pretty morbid, but I prefer to have a
little bit of fun with it, because hey, they can't
They can't get you or me as an accessory on
this case. So I think we're clear, you know what
I'm saying exactly.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
And look, neither really made any like jokes, real accountable
food jokes or anything like that. So I think we
kept it kind of elevated.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Well, I meant I did talk saying that the potential
defense would have been.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
I get them thinking that my friends who introduced me
at an event the other night said that the book
was brain food. I thought that went too far.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, uh so the books out, I'm assuming Amazon. Do
you have a website on.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Local bookstores, you know, all around Boston?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Well, I sometimes asked. Some authors now have their own websites,
and some of them, in order to degenerate a few
more sales, particularly around the holiday season. Will say, hey,
if you go to my website and you tell me
who you want to be inscribed to, I will inscribe
it and you'll get it that way. But just a
thought going forwards with your seventh book. What what are
you working on now? Anything you can tell us about.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
I'm really just talking about agent about that. He's wondering too.
We're trying to come up with an idea, go for it.
We're also trying to sell the movie rights on this one.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So if you know anyone, well, I know a lot
of people in the movie business.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Actually, yeah, I bet you do.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well, they're saying that it's tough time for movies. But
I'll tell you with with with Netflix and Peacock and
all of these different extra channels which in effect of
movie channels, this should be a great story. Uh you know,
do you have a script? Have you done? Have you
done a script?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Or no?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
No? No? I think you know my agents. There's a
Hollywood office and I think they try to put together
the package. They try to find a screenwriter and a
star and all.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
But you're right, you could do your own script as well.
I got a We'll have you back, keep us, keep
us posting. Seriously, you sound like ge an interesting guy.
I really mean that.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
I enjoyed this so much. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I have as well. Anytime you're in Boston, give me
a ring and we'll go have a breakfast to lunch.
I'd love to.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Okay, that sounds great.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Okay, talk to you soon. Bring get back on to
talk with Lance Morgan, a financial expert, founder and CEO
of College Funding Secrets. He's a certified financial planner, also
a best selling author. We're going to talk with him
about the fifty year mortgage. It's a controversial proposal, but
it may help some people that some pluses and minuses
(12:34):
will go over it, I assure you. Right after the
break on this the break here on this Friday night,
my name is Dan Ray. This is Nightside. That sounds
like a great book. Captain's Dinner, a shipwreck, an active cannibalism,
and a murder trial that changed legal history. Great title
to coming back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
It's Night Side with Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Where with the make an issue these days affordability. When
you're talking about affordability of purchasing your own home, people
are now floating the idea of a fifty year mortgage
with us is Lance Morgan. He's a financial expert, certified
financial educator, and best selling author. Lance Morgan, Welcome to night, said,
(13:19):
how are you this evening.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I'm excellent. How are you doing? Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You're very welcome. I am ready to argue this either way.
I can either argue that a fifty year mortgage is
a good idea or it's a crazy idea. And I'll
bet you you can make both arguments as well, and
you'll make them better than me. So go right ahead.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Well, I'm personally a big fan actually, so I think
it's a great idea.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
And here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
The reality of it is is that it's not like
they're getting rid of all the other options. And so
if somebody doesn't.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Like their fifty year mortgage, they always take it.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Ten O, why didn't you hit Why don't you hit
the positives? And I'll hit the negatives?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Go ahead, all right, for sure, So here's the positives.
The one aha moment that I had a long time
ago was the idea of opportunity cost. So opportunity cost
is simply being able to, you know, spend more money
towards something that's going to earn a greater interest than
what you're going to be charged. Right, So, let's say
(14:22):
that a fifty year mortgage theoretically is going to be
a lower interest rate, and therefore you know your monthly
payment would be lower, which would allow you to save more. So,
if your interest rate, let's say is five percent six percent,
and you could get let's say ten percent on a
real estate investment, or in the stock market, or whatever
(14:43):
the case may be, wherever you can get the best
rate of return. If you feel like you can get
a better rate of return than what it's costing you
on the mortgage, then it makes sense to pay that
low monthly payment. The other argument, I guess would is
about the idea of, you know, having your house paid
(15:04):
off so that you can actually retire. But I guess
my argument would be is just putting more money towards
your retirement or your future so that you have greater
cash flow, and that greater cash flow could help pay
for a mortgage payment.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
No, I get those arguments. The first condo that I
bought a long time ago, I asked the bank if
I could have a fifteen year mortgage. The idea that
I was going to pay down more of the equity
you know, earlier, and I was. I was. I flipped
that condo probably in eight years, and it was a
(15:41):
heck of a great It was a great investment. The
advantage of it to me is what you articulated, and
that is that if you're somebody in your let's say
late twenties, and you're you're tired of just paying rent,
which has no financial benefit fit to you at all.
If you if you were to take a fifty year mortgage, uh,
(16:04):
you're not going to pay down a lot of equity
in the early years, but hoping and expecting that the
the home will will will will basically increase in value
over a relatively short period ten years or so, you
can probably sell that, make a make a pretty good
(16:25):
profit and then invest that into a home that you
that you really want. Once your life kind of takes
a direction or settles down, maybe you you'll end up
moving to a part of the country where real estate
is a little less less expensive. Maybe you'll have a
have a wife or a husband or a partner or whatever,
(16:45):
and with the two incomes, it just I just always
encourage people to get out of the rental market as
soon as they can. Am I crazy?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
No, I think you're undupsent, right.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
My first experience with the first house I ever bought
was you know, the traditional American way of paying down
the mortgage as fast as I could, putting as much
extra towards paying it off as fast as I could.
I had a ton of equity in my house. And
then two thousand and eight came along and my equity disappeared.
And that was about the time I just bad timing,
(17:17):
and that was when I needed, you know, to start
my well, that's when I started my business and needed money.
And of course I couldn't get to the equity in
my house because the bank wouldn't give it to me
because because first of all, it had disappeared, And so
we ended up losing our house. And so this idea
of you know, trying to get your house paid off,
(17:37):
I was chasing that dream, you know, and then ended
up losing the house in the process. Whereas let's say
that I would have gone with a fifty year mortgage
and took all those extra payments and stuck them in
and stuck them in an account that I had control over,
not the bank, but I had control over right now,
(17:57):
the beauty of a fifty year mortgages, You could pay
it off in thirty years if you took the extra
money and put it into an account that got a
greater rate of return than your mortgage payment and had.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Control over it.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
So I'm a big fan of controlling your equity, having
your your equity and an account that you own and control,
not the bank.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
And so yeah, no, you make you make.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
All the sense in the world. And these these horrific events,
whether it's the crash of eighty seven or this bubble burst,
or obviously the problems of two thousand and seven, two
thousand and eight, they come along, but that they don't
come along, you know, very often. So if you know again,
(18:44):
my rule of thumb is stop paying rent as soon
as you can, even if you have to get a
smaller unit, a smaller condo. Uh, maybe it's a little
bit further out of out of where you from where
you work. I think it's I think it's important. Anyway, Look,
I enjoyed this. I wish I we don't have as
much time as I would hope to have. Maybe I
could bring you back some night in the next couple
(19:05):
of weeks and we could do a longer version during
our nine, ten or eleven o'clock hour and take phone
calls from listeners. Would you be interested in doing Oh God,
love it. Lance. We will get back to you if
folks want to get in touch with you in the meantime.
Do you have a website you want to direct people too?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, College Fundingsecrets dot.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Com sounds great. College Fundingsecrets dot Com. Will be back
in touch. Thanks Lance, I appreciate it. I think you're
a pretty sharp guy, and I'd love to get you
to talk to someone me listeners a little bit later
on this month or maybe early December.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
I enjoyed the opportunity to appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Thank you, Thank you, sir. When we get back right
after the news at the bottom of the hour, we're
going to talk about a new pharma pharmaological pharmacological option
for managing agitation in adults with Alzheimer's. It is essentially
synthetic THHC. We're going to talk with doctor Brent Forrester,
psychiatric psychiatrist, i should say, in chief and chair of
(20:05):
the psychiatric department at Tufts Medical Center, and he's director
of the Behavioral Health program for Tuft's Medicine, and he's
also senior author on this paper that we're about to
talk about. Been back right after the news at the
bottom of the hour of this is Dan Ray listening
to the Nightside in WBZ. Tell you friends about this show.
It's great.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Delighted to welcome doctor Brent Forrester. He's the psychiatrist in
chief and chair of the psychiatry Department at Tuft's Medical Center,
director of Behavioral Health for Tufts Medicine, and senior author
on this paper which found that synthetic THC was safe
and effected for reducing agitation in adults with Alzheimer's disease.
(20:50):
Doctor Forrester, welcome Tonightsich, Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Dan. So look, a lot of families of an older
relative who's affected by either Alzheimer's or some level of dementia,
and I guess agitation is a symptom that sometimes can
company these diseases.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
Correct, Yes, Sam, that is correct. Alzheimer's disease has become
and is becoming quickly with the aging of our population,
the epidemic of our time. We have about seven point
two million Americans with some form of dementia, including the
Alzheimer's type of dementia. And what to stress is family
the most is not the loss of memory, difficulty recalling
(21:34):
recent events, or even trouble remembering their names. But it
really really comes down to these behavioral symptoms including anxiety, depression, paranoia,
and also agitation. And these are the symptoms that actually
drive people with dementia into hospitals, into emergency rooms, and
into long term care facilities like nursing homes because it
(21:57):
eventually overwhelms family's ability to care for them. I loved
ones at home.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
So the medication is called drnabinol. Is that how it
was pronounced?
Speaker 5 (22:09):
It is, Yes, it is called gannabinol.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
That is the generic name.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
And it's a medication that was actually approved by the
FDA in nineteen eighty five for two other indications having
nothing to do with agitation in Alzheimer's disease. It was
approved for nauseen vomiting and people were receiving chemotherapy because
it reduced that. And it was approved for loss of
appetite and loss of weight in people with HIV. It
(22:37):
had the properties of stimulating appetite and reducing nauseen vomiting.
And about twenty years ago, while I was at McClain
Hospital and the medical director on an inpatient unit for
people with dementia, agitation, depression, et cetera, we had certain
individuals who just were not responding to usual treatment and
(22:58):
we started to use this medicaid off label because it
was not approved specifically by the FDA for this for
individuals with dementia who had agitation, and found at least
based on our clinical experience that it seemed to help
certain individuals, and that kind of led us down this
pathway towards the research that was just published.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So at this point, where does this medication stand. Is
it now available through through your doctor's office continuing off
label or are now can it be prescribed for the
symptoms that now it appears to help with in Alzheimer patients.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Well, first of all, it's definitely not approved by the
FDA for the syndication, so this would still be off
label treatment. It is available, there's a generic availability of
dronabanol that can be prescribed. There has been quite a
shortage actually of this medication for a whole variety of
reasons weight loss, and is weight loss one other since No, No,
(24:04):
I'm not sure it may have. It may have just
have to do with business reasons in manufacturing. I'm not
really sure why there's a shortage. Okay, I'm not sure that.
I don't think there's the shortest because it's been used
in a in abundance, but it's just not as widely
available as one as one may want it to be.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Right, Well, you know there's someone of diabetes. Medications have
been used. One of the secondary benefits is weight loss,
and one of these, at least one of these medications
have been used, and I think that a lot of
the insurance companies are are going to pull back on that.
I wasn't sure if that might have been somehow related
when you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Right, no, different story. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So so the bottom line is you should be able
to get it if your doctor or your parents doctor
whomever is treating your family member, if the if the
doctor agrees is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
That is that is correct.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
And let me let me also just say that this
was a first of its kind pilot study. Really, it
involves seventy five individuals with Alzheimer's type dementia who had
symptoms of agitation. The outcomes that we looked at were
agitation reduction over a period of three weeks, so not
three months or three years, but just three weeks. And
we compared it to a placebo inert non drug, just
(25:21):
the placebo pill, and we saw that difference and we
saw it was safe. So I just want to caution
people that this was really positive finding. It now needs
to be replicated in larger studies that are done probably
for a little longer period of time than three weeks,
and we're looking into that going forward.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Is there any downside? Was there any reason that a
doctor might say, again to the family member that's taking
care of the person who has Alzheimer's, look this too
much risk involved here? Or it Once the doctors are
familiar with this, do you think it will be readily
accepted even though it was a relatively small and a
(26:01):
small sample.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Size, right, Well, that's a great question, Dan. So the tolerability,
so the medication was very well tolerated by individuals, the
things that doctors would want to look out for, as
well as family members who have loved ones with dementia
if they take drin abanall would be sedation sleepiness, and
(26:23):
that would probably be the primary side effect. The dose
we're using is very low, so we didn't see a
ton of sleepiness in the side effect profile in the study.
And the other thing is it actually stimulates appetite. It
doesn't reduce appetite. It stimulates appetite, which for people with
dementia sometimes is a good thing when they've lost weight.
So from a tolerability perspective, it looked very safe. And
(26:45):
one thing to know is that some of the other
medicines we use off label for agitation and dementia are
actually known to have substantial side effects, not just sleepiness
and dizziness, but things like risk of stroke and risk
of mortality. So compared to the anti psychotic for example,
relatively speaking, this this seems much safer.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Doctor Forrester, thanks so much for what you do and
thanks for taking some time tonight. Hopefully there'll be some
patience out there or some caretakers for patients who have
heard about this. And again, the the it's a t
it's a synthetic THC. It's called drinabino d R O
N A B I N O L. Someone may want
(27:28):
to write that down and consult with your own physician,
or with your parents physician, or whoever is impacted. Thanks
so much for what you do. You've probably helped a
lot of people tonight.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
Thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
We'll talk again. Thanks very much. Well we get back.
We're going to help you navigate conversations during your Thanksgiving
dinner with family and friends. Five ways to keep peace
at the Thanksgiving table. It's going to be talking with
Juliana Defour, so she's she's gonna help us out and
(28:01):
tell us how we can have a more come and
more peaceful Thanksgiving dinner with all the politics. I mean, look,
if mom, Donnie and President Trump can get along as
they seem to get along today, this hope for all
of us. Back on Nightside after this.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
We're joined by Juliana DeFore and you are at ucy Berkley.
What do you do with Ucia?
Speaker 6 (28:30):
I am at Berkeley.
Speaker 7 (28:32):
Yeah, well, I run a program at a center called
the Greater Good Science Center, and our program brings people
together across different sizes. So we, in essence, look at
what the research says about how people stay connected.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You are going to tell us five ways to keep
peace at the Thanksgiving table. You've never had Thanksgiving dinner
with my family, that's for sure. Not only look, this
is a tough period time. Obviously, I've done this show
for a long time, and I remember back in twenty
sixteen after the Hillary Clinton Donald Trump election, I encourage
(29:09):
people to, you know, wear their buttons and their badges
and just have at it. And that didn't seem to work.
And then I've told people don't talk politics. That doesn't
seem to work. So give us some strategies that you've
figured out that can allow people to keep peace at
the Thanksgiving dinner table.
Speaker 6 (29:26):
Absolutely happy to do that.
Speaker 7 (29:29):
And I understand the holidays are a perfect stress test
for all of this, right with people you love, strong
opinions and a lot of expectations also in one room.
And our goal really is to help people get through
those conversations with less conflict and more connection. So happy
to walk you through a few tips that you can use.
Speaker 6 (29:52):
Ears so awesome. So I mean for starters, grounding yourself and.
Speaker 7 (29:59):
This one you can do before you say anything.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
Before you arrive, but also in the heat of the moment.
So say your relative says something.
Speaker 7 (30:08):
That you know, things you don't like. Your body reacts.
You feel anger, shame, or fear, whatever it is you're feeling,
and it's very easy to fire back.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
When you talk about feeling fear. Wait a second, nobody's
got a gun here. We're just talking about someone expressed
the political opinion that you probably didn't agree with. I
want to make sure we're not talking about something even
more serious. We're talking about the people. You got someone
over here who loves Donald Trump, and you got someone
over here who hates Donald Trump or whatever, and you're
(30:38):
in the middle of the crossfire. So how what would
you suggest people do?
Speaker 7 (30:43):
Yeah, and the thing is that, because of polarization and how.
Speaker 6 (30:48):
Implained things are, we can feel some of those disagreements.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
It's fear as.
Speaker 7 (30:52):
Well, believe it or not. So grounding yourself is so important, right,
you would take a pause, take a moment, and do
a technique that is research backed called self distancing, and
that simply means talking to yourself in the third person
instead of I so, for example, instead of I'm so angry,
I can't believe they said that, you silently say to yourself,
(31:17):
why is still.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
In your name, feeling so angry? Right now?
Speaker 7 (31:22):
Why am I'm feeling so angry?
Speaker 6 (31:25):
And what can I can.
Speaker 7 (31:27):
Say Juliana do next so that she won't regret this tomorrow?
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Right, So this little.
Speaker 7 (31:33):
Shift combined with a slow breath, helps you step back
from the heat of the moment, and it gives you
just enough distance to respond in line with your values
instead of reacting from pure emotion.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Time. So I am going to be able to do that.
That's a great suggestion. I talk to myself all the time,
all the time, everywhere.
Speaker 7 (31:54):
Awesome. So you're already self distancing.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Well, I don't know if I'm self distancing, but I
do talk to myself. So now I'm feeling a little grounded,
feeling better. What's what's the next thing I might be
able to do with Like all of a sudden, a
plate of mash potatoes goes flying across the table.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
That's funny.
Speaker 7 (32:14):
Well, the point here is that instead of arguing about
like policies or headlines, right, that you focus on personal stories.
So that would be the second technique. So you know,
questions like how did.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
You develop this belief or who influenced the way you
see the world.
Speaker 7 (32:32):
The most right, and those kinds of questions really pull
people from your wrong and I'm right and into here's
the experiences that shaped me. And you know, in surveys,
students who do this report more empathy and more connection
and more confidence in talking to people across differences, and
(32:53):
families can do the same right like, rather than debating
immigration or climate policy right in the abstract, sharing like,
here's an experience that.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
Really shaped how I see this, and then asking for their.
Speaker 7 (33:06):
Story too, and trading those stories rather than talking points
really changes everything.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
We find that people do soften.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
That's kind of what I try to do here on
the show. And I'm not joking when I say this.
What are the things I try to do with my program?
And I've done it for this for a long time,
and before that I worked in television. I try to
encourage people. I use the term I say, I don't
care what you think. I just want to make sure
you're thinking. Meaning all points of view on my program
(33:36):
are totally acceptable. Don't yell, don't scream if you can
have it, make it a conversation as opposed to a speech.
I'm assuming those are all pretty good techniques as well.
Correct Just to kind of keep it a little more civil.
Speaker 7 (33:52):
Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, all points of an issue being invited
into conversation is what we do when lee Bridge differences
and with like focusing on the story, it's more of
here's what happened to me, and.
Speaker 6 (34:05):
Then I'd like to hear what happened to you?
Speaker 7 (34:07):
And I mean Brenda Brown says you can't hate people
up close, and that's a little bit the gist of
this one technique that I just shared.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Well, I think it's very good. What do you do
with the person who just sits next to you at
Thanksgiving and you really don't want to engage because whatever,
maybe they've had a couple of drinks and they're really
intense and they're passionate. How do you and I know
we only have about a minute left, but is there
(34:37):
some little technique that you could share with us as
to what you can do to You're sitting there, you
can't move, you're having dinner, and this person has kind
of focused their attention on you and it's.
Speaker 7 (34:49):
Not Yeah, no, absolutely, Well, setting gentle boundaries when needed
is extremely important, right, and like letting people know that
you know, maybe you both care about this country, but
you just see the solutions.
Speaker 6 (35:07):
Differently might be what is needed, and if.
Speaker 7 (35:12):
It is harmful to you, then you see that common
turts and I need to break from this conversation. We're
very clear in our program that we're not asking people
to bridge at all costs, so knowing when to lean
in and when to protect your own well being is
absolutely essential.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I'm not talking about being physically, but just someone them
won't let it go, That's what I'm saying. Hey, Juliana,
you sound like you would be a great person to
share Thanksgiving with. I'll be thinking of you, Julian, Juliana
de four, Is there a way people could find your website?
Do you have a website you'd like to direct people to?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (35:47):
Absolutely. We can be found at Greater Good dot Berkeley
dot ee du and you can find all of our
bridging differences resources there as well, including a playbook with
fourteen science based skills for bridging differences in our general
Audience playbook and a new hire ed playbook with sixteen
science based skills for bridging differences.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Juliana, thank you very much. I'm sorry that we got
your last name mixed up and it's Juliana to four.
Thank you so much. Juliana, appreciate it very much. Have
a great thanks.
Speaker 7 (36:18):
Gay, Thank you you too.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
All right. Thanks. When we get back, we're going to
be talking about I know you won't believe this one,
but there actually is apparently a move afoot at the
Massachusetts Water Resources Authority that might want to increase the
amount of sewage that's dumped into the Charles River. We'll
explain it and hopefully we'll make people wear what's going on.
(36:43):
We'll be back on Night Side right after the nine
It's nice eyes with Dan Ray. I'm telling you easy
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
All right, Thanksgiving? Now about what six days away? I
can taste that turkey and stuffing.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
My name is Dan Ray. I'm the host of night Side.
Rob Brooks, our partner is back in the control room
at the big radio station in Medford, Massachusetts. He's there
and he will get everything going perfectly tonight, no doubt
about it. The best producer in radio as far as
I'm concerned, been with me now for oh goodness, it's
(00:33):
gotta be close to fifteen years. He does a great job.
My name is Dan Ray, and I am the host,
and you, of course are the listeners, and you have
a big role to play. After nine o'clock you can
join us and ask questions of our guests. We're going
to be talking about sewage going into the Charles River.
I was surprised to find out that sewage bross sewage's
(00:55):
still going into the Charles River. And we're gonna be
talking with Emily Norton. She's the executive director of the
Child River Watershed of Watershed Association. As a matter of fact,
the MWRA apparently wants more sewage going into the Charles River.
I thought, I didn't. I don't understand it. We'll figure
it out. I watched the LoveFest between President Trump and
(01:16):
the mayor elect of New York City, jo Ron Mamdani today.
It was like a weird experience. We're going to talk
about that at ten o'clock and then at eleven o'clock tonight,
at the twentieth hour of the week, we will do
a brushes with celebrity, and I think we're going to
have some prizes during that hour night side tote bags
(01:39):
for you. If you are one of the we'll say
one of the two or three best, or three or four,
a five best. I'm gonna give away some tote bags
which you can which you can use proudly as you
go shopping this holiday season. We will begin with I
think what will be a fascinating book. I saw this one.
(02:00):
I haven't read it, but the title is Captain's Dinner,
A shipwreck, an act of cannibalism, and a murder trial
that changed legal history. With us is the acclaimed journalist
Pull of Surprise winning author and New York Times best
selling author, A Pull of Surprise Juror. I believe I'm
sorry I've misread that Adam Cohen, Adam, welcome to Nightside.
(02:24):
How are you.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Oh great, it's my pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, I'll tell you it's a pleasure to have you.
I've never heard of this story. And besides being a journalist,
I also happen to be a lawyer, member of the bar,
and this is fascinating. Just tell us the story briefly.
This was a tragedy which was compounded by an act
of cannibalism and a murder trial. It's the pieces of
(02:51):
this book are incredible.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Go ahead, actually just start by saying that this is
a book that was really started in Boston because I
went to law school there, and first year of law school,
my roommate and I gave a Halloween party. Come as
your favorite legal case or legal doctrine. And my roommate,
who's now a federal judge, went out and got chicken
parts and ketchup, sprinkled the ketchup by the chicken parts,
(03:14):
and came as this cannibal captain. That was the first
time I heard about this case. I went a spoiling
cambridge that you might have heard of.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
One is that? The one? Is that? The one that
competes with my law school, Boston University for the top
law school in America.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
I think it does. Yeah, yeah, So we gave a
little Halloween party and there was the Capital Captain. So
it's just as you say, it's a crazy story of
four men who were hired to deliver a yacht from
London to Australia. And it was smooth sailing until they
passed the equator. Then they hit a big storm, huge wave, shipwreck.
(03:51):
They escaped in a lifeboat without food and water, and
they're drifting for a few weeks and eventually the captain
decides to kill the cabin boy. And there was something
called the custom of the sea. It was there were
traditions of cannibalism at sea when you had a shipwreck.
But they did not draw straws as they usually do.
This time. The captain just said, hey, cabin boy sick,
(04:12):
he doesn't have any wife for children, let's eat him.
They did.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
They were probably probably what he said what he might
have said, Adam, he said, let's let's have him for dinner.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Exactly like itself, like an exactly captain's dinner on croups
is quite fancy. This was a little more low brow.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah. Yeah, So let me ask you, how did they
kill the cabin boy or did they claim that the
cabin boy died of natural causes lack of oxygen?
Speaker 4 (04:44):
So this gets a little grim. But what they did
is actually the captains split his He took out a
pen knife slit his throat. And the reason he did
that is they were actually more in danger of dying
of thirst out of hunger. You die of thirst a
lot more quickly than you die of hunger, so they
really need to get the blood, so they split it throat.
It's grim. It's grim. And then they captured the blood
(05:05):
and drank that, and then they moved on to a
couple of the internal organs while they were still warm,
and then they ate most of the cabin boy before
they were rescued.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So how much longer would it they had to have
held on if they had not killed How soon were
they rescued after dinner?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
You know, pretty close? Two days after dinner it rained
quite a bit, so it could have gotten water. Four
days after dinner, a German ship that was passing by
rescue them. So we'll never know for sure, but I
think they could have made it, all four of them, survived.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Okay, So they get back to England, I assume and
at someone they didn't do like a secret, we got
to keep this secret that somebody must have spilled the beans.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Well, you know they again talking about right away they
told the crew of the German ship that rescued them
because they were kind of proud of it. They thought
it was a great tale of the sea. And as
I say, okay, common, it was common, you know, and
they might have.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Thought they were an international waters too. Who knows, I mean,
I don't know who who? Where was it? Where was
I assume the case was tried in England?
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Yeah, that's correct. So they were. They were brought back
to Falmouth, England, and they uh and and that's where
all began, and that's where they were first first put
on a kind of hearing, and they said we're gonna
go ahead and charge with murders.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So okay. So so the the captain who who you know,
basically in effect set the table for dinner. Uh, he
took the fall. He gets convicted. Uh are the others
who were who were still alive, are they convicted as well?
Or are they even charged?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Great? Great, great question. Right, So the one of the
others was, so Captain Dudley was and his first meet
Stevens was as well. So the case is called Dudley
and Stevens. There's a third guy, Brooks. Brooks said from
the beginning he did not want to kill anyone and
he did not want to be killed. And when they
were killing the cabin boy, Stevens was actually standing there
ready to hold his legs down part of the conspiracy,
(07:02):
but he didn't need to do it, as he turned out.
But Brooks was covering his head with a raincoat because
he did not want to be involved. So when they
get back, they don't actually charge Brooks, they can the
lead prosecution witness, as it turns out.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, he also could have planned to use a vegan
and I think that would have got him off. So
what were the sentences rendered by the court. This, I
assume was without without jury or no.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Well, so it's really funny and tricky that there was
a jury, but the judge was so afraid that the
jury might acquit, you know, to a jury nullification thing
because a lot of the working class people were sympathetic
to the canals, that he actually didn't let the jury decide.
He just let them find the facts and it went
to a special panel of judges. The judges convicted convicted
(07:48):
them of murder, and at that time in England there
was only one punishment for murder, which was death. So
then it all came down to appeal from Mercy to
Queen Victoria. That was the way it worked. Then you
get definalties that you would hope that the Queen would
compete your sentence, and in this case she did.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Well. It's interesting because I would have I would have bet,
knowing a little bit about the Victorian age, that she
was not like a party person from what I understand,
and I suspected that she would have gone by the book.
So good for them. So he lived a happy life
or did he have to spend twenty years or something
in the in the slamm or in the.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Brig He got six months in prison, but he did
not live a happy life. Another crazy aspect of this
story is he moves to Australia, which is what he
kind of always wanted to do to stry his life over,
and then there's a rabonic plague outbreak around nineteen early
nineteen hundreds and he's literally the first person to die
of it. In Australia. Crazy.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Wow, what a great what a great story, and what
a what a great book. Now you went to Harvard
across the river, obviously you couldn't get into be law school.
I'm sad to say, but what are you doing to
your practicing? You're in Boston. Where where do you?
Speaker 4 (09:08):
I mean New York? I mean you're I did practice
law for while, but then I became a journalist. I
was like a Time magazine in New York Times for
a while, and now now I'm writing books my thing.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
That's not bad. I'm still a journalist and I'm still
a lawyer, still an active member of the bar here
in Massachuseto.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
For you, Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Absolutely, don't quit the day job. Don't quit the day No, no, no,
no no no.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I've only you put There was a point in time
when my wife said to me, you got to pick
one or the other. And I was an on air
reporter for the CBS station here in Boston. When did
you get out of law school? You probably? I was
with WBZ. I'm still with WBZ. We were right across
the river from you. Guys. What you get out of
law school?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I got out many years ago. This is actually my
sixth book. So if that kind of dates me, it's
been I'm.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Not going to tell you, but I got out of
law school in the seventies, So there's.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
No way, there's no way.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
You have nothing to be ashamed of.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
You you're a nubius contract.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
What a great story, and you tell it. Well, I
know it's pretty morbid, but I prefer to have a
little bit of fun with it, because hey, they can't
They can't get you or me as an accessory on
this case. So I think we're clear, you know what
I'm saying exactly.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
And look, neither really made any like jokes, real accountable
food jokes or anything like that. So I think we
kept it kind of elevated.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Well, I meant I did talk saying that the potential
defense would have been.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
I get them thinking that my friends who introduced me
at an event the other night said that the book
was brain food. I thought that went too far.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, uh so the books out, I'm assuming Amazon. Do
you have a website on.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Local bookstores, you know, all around Boston?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Well, I sometimes asked. Some authors now have their own websites,
and some of them, in order to degenerate a few
more sales, particularly around the holiday season. Will say, hey,
if you go to my website and you tell me
who you want to be inscribed to, I will inscribe
it and you'll get it that way. But just a
thought going forwards with your seventh book. What what are
you working on now? Anything you can tell us about.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
I'm really just talking about agent about that. He's wondering too.
We're trying to come up with an idea, go for it.
We're also trying to sell the movie rights on this one.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So if you know anyone, well, I know a lot
of people in the movie business.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Actually, yeah, I bet you do.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well, they're saying that it's tough time for movies. But
I'll tell you with with with Netflix and Peacock and
all of these different extra channels which in effect of
movie channels, this should be a great story. Uh you know,
do you have a script? Have you done? Have you
done a script?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Or no?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
No? No? I think you know my agents. There's a
Hollywood office and I think they try to put together
the package. They try to find a screenwriter and a
star and all.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
But you're right, you could do your own script as well.
I got a We'll have you back, keep us, keep
us posting. Seriously, you sound like ge an interesting guy.
I really mean that.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
I enjoyed this so much. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I have as well. Anytime you're in Boston, give me
a ring and we'll go have a breakfast to lunch.
I'd love to.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Okay, that sounds great.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Okay, talk to you soon. Bring get back on to
talk with Lance Morgan, a financial expert, founder and CEO
of College Funding Secrets. He's a certified financial planner, also
a best selling author. We're going to talk with him
about the fifty year mortgage. It's a controversial proposal, but
it may help some people that some pluses and minuses
(12:34):
will go over it, I assure you. Right after the
break on this the break here on this Friday night,
my name is Dan Ray. This is Nightside. That sounds
like a great book. Captain's Dinner, a shipwreck, an active cannibalism,
and a murder trial that changed legal history. Great title
to coming back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
It's Night Side with Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Where with the make an issue these days affordability. When
you're talking about affordability of purchasing your own home, people
are now floating the idea of a fifty year mortgage
with us is Lance Morgan. He's a financial expert, certified
financial educator, and best selling author. Lance Morgan, Welcome to night, said,
(13:19):
how are you this evening.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I'm excellent. How are you doing? Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You're very welcome. I am ready to argue this either way.
I can either argue that a fifty year mortgage is
a good idea or it's a crazy idea. And I'll
bet you you can make both arguments as well, and
you'll make them better than me. So go right ahead.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Well, I'm personally a big fan actually, so I think
it's a great idea.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
And here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
The reality of it is is that it's not like
they're getting rid of all the other options. And so
if somebody doesn't.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Like their fifty year mortgage, they always take it.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Ten O, why didn't you hit Why don't you hit
the positives? And I'll hit the negatives?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Go ahead, all right, for sure, So here's the positives.
The one aha moment that I had a long time
ago was the idea of opportunity cost. So opportunity cost
is simply being able to, you know, spend more money
towards something that's going to earn a greater interest than
what you're going to be charged. Right, So, let's say
(14:22):
that a fifty year mortgage theoretically is going to be
a lower interest rate, and therefore you know your monthly
payment would be lower, which would allow you to save more. So,
if your interest rate, let's say is five percent six percent,
and you could get let's say ten percent on a
real estate investment, or in the stock market, or whatever
(14:43):
the case may be, wherever you can get the best
rate of return. If you feel like you can get
a better rate of return than what it's costing you
on the mortgage, then it makes sense to pay that
low monthly payment. The other argument, I guess would is
about the idea of, you know, having your house paid
(15:04):
off so that you can actually retire. But I guess
my argument would be is just putting more money towards
your retirement or your future so that you have greater
cash flow, and that greater cash flow could help pay
for a mortgage payment.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
No, I get those arguments. The first condo that I
bought a long time ago, I asked the bank if
I could have a fifteen year mortgage. The idea that
I was going to pay down more of the equity
you know, earlier, and I was. I was. I flipped
that condo probably in eight years, and it was a
(15:41):
heck of a great It was a great investment. The
advantage of it to me is what you articulated, and
that is that if you're somebody in your let's say
late twenties, and you're you're tired of just paying rent,
which has no financial benefit fit to you at all.
If you if you were to take a fifty year mortgage, uh,
(16:04):
you're not going to pay down a lot of equity
in the early years, but hoping and expecting that the
the home will will will will basically increase in value
over a relatively short period ten years or so, you
can probably sell that, make a make a pretty good
(16:25):
profit and then invest that into a home that you
that you really want. Once your life kind of takes
a direction or settles down, maybe you you'll end up
moving to a part of the country where real estate
is a little less less expensive. Maybe you'll have a
have a wife or a husband or a partner or whatever,
(16:45):
and with the two incomes, it just I just always
encourage people to get out of the rental market as
soon as they can. Am I crazy?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
No, I think you're undupsent, right.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
My first experience with the first house I ever bought
was you know, the traditional American way of paying down
the mortgage as fast as I could, putting as much
extra towards paying it off as fast as I could.
I had a ton of equity in my house. And
then two thousand and eight came along and my equity disappeared.
And that was about the time I just bad timing,
(17:17):
and that was when I needed, you know, to start
my well, that's when I started my business and needed money.
And of course I couldn't get to the equity in
my house because the bank wouldn't give it to me
because because first of all, it had disappeared, And so
we ended up losing our house. And so this idea
of you know, trying to get your house paid off,
(17:37):
I was chasing that dream, you know, and then ended
up losing the house in the process. Whereas let's say
that I would have gone with a fifty year mortgage
and took all those extra payments and stuck them in
and stuck them in an account that I had control over,
not the bank, but I had control over right now,
(17:57):
the beauty of a fifty year mortgages, You could pay
it off in thirty years if you took the extra
money and put it into an account that got a
greater rate of return than your mortgage payment and had.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Control over it.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
So I'm a big fan of controlling your equity, having
your your equity and an account that you own and control,
not the bank.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
And so yeah, no, you make you make.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
All the sense in the world. And these these horrific events,
whether it's the crash of eighty seven or this bubble burst,
or obviously the problems of two thousand and seven, two
thousand and eight, they come along, but that they don't
come along, you know, very often. So if you know again,
(18:44):
my rule of thumb is stop paying rent as soon
as you can, even if you have to get a
smaller unit, a smaller condo. Uh, maybe it's a little
bit further out of out of where you from where
you work. I think it's I think it's important. Anyway, Look,
I enjoyed this. I wish I we don't have as
much time as I would hope to have. Maybe I
could bring you back some night in the next couple
(19:05):
of weeks and we could do a longer version during
our nine, ten or eleven o'clock hour and take phone
calls from listeners. Would you be interested in doing Oh God,
love it. Lance. We will get back to you if
folks want to get in touch with you in the meantime.
Do you have a website you want to direct people too?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, College Fundingsecrets dot.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Com sounds great. College Fundingsecrets dot Com. Will be back
in touch. Thanks Lance, I appreciate it. I think you're
a pretty sharp guy, and I'd love to get you
to talk to someone me listeners a little bit later
on this month or maybe early December.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
I enjoyed the opportunity to appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Thank you, Thank you, sir. When we get back right
after the news at the bottom of the hour, we're
going to talk about a new pharma pharmaological pharmacological option
for managing agitation in adults with Alzheimer's. It is essentially
synthetic THHC. We're going to talk with doctor Brent Forrester,
psychiatric psychiatrist, i should say, in chief and chair of
(20:05):
the psychiatric department at Tufts Medical Center, and he's director
of the Behavioral Health program for Tuft's Medicine, and he's
also senior author on this paper that we're about to
talk about. Been back right after the news at the
bottom of the hour of this is Dan Ray listening
to the Nightside in WBZ. Tell you friends about this show.
It's great.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Delighted to welcome doctor Brent Forrester. He's the psychiatrist in
chief and chair of the psychiatry Department at Tuft's Medical Center,
director of Behavioral Health for Tufts Medicine, and senior author
on this paper which found that synthetic THC was safe
and effected for reducing agitation in adults with Alzheimer's disease.
(20:50):
Doctor Forrester, welcome Tonightsich, Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Dan. So look, a lot of families of an older
relative who's affected by either Alzheimer's or some level of dementia,
and I guess agitation is a symptom that sometimes can
company these diseases.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
Correct, Yes, Sam, that is correct. Alzheimer's disease has become
and is becoming quickly with the aging of our population,
the epidemic of our time. We have about seven point
two million Americans with some form of dementia, including the
Alzheimer's type of dementia. And what to stress is family
the most is not the loss of memory, difficulty recalling
(21:34):
recent events, or even trouble remembering their names. But it
really really comes down to these behavioral symptoms including anxiety, depression, paranoia,
and also agitation. And these are the symptoms that actually
drive people with dementia into hospitals, into emergency rooms, and
into long term care facilities like nursing homes because it
(21:57):
eventually overwhelms family's ability to care for them. I loved
ones at home.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
So the medication is called drnabinol. Is that how it
was pronounced?
Speaker 5 (22:09):
It is, Yes, it is called gannabinol.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
That is the generic name.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
And it's a medication that was actually approved by the
FDA in nineteen eighty five for two other indications having
nothing to do with agitation in Alzheimer's disease. It was
approved for nauseen vomiting and people were receiving chemotherapy because
it reduced that. And it was approved for loss of
appetite and loss of weight in people with HIV. It
(22:37):
had the properties of stimulating appetite and reducing nauseen vomiting.
And about twenty years ago, while I was at McClain
Hospital and the medical director on an inpatient unit for
people with dementia, agitation, depression, et cetera, we had certain
individuals who just were not responding to usual treatment and
(22:58):
we started to use this medicaid off label because it
was not approved specifically by the FDA for this for
individuals with dementia who had agitation, and found at least
based on our clinical experience that it seemed to help
certain individuals, and that kind of led us down this
pathway towards the research that was just published.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So at this point, where does this medication stand. Is
it now available through through your doctor's office continuing off
label or are now can it be prescribed for the
symptoms that now it appears to help with in Alzheimer patients.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Well, first of all, it's definitely not approved by the
FDA for the syndication, so this would still be off
label treatment. It is available, there's a generic availability of
dronabanol that can be prescribed. There has been quite a
shortage actually of this medication for a whole variety of
reasons weight loss, and is weight loss one other since No, No,
(24:04):
I'm not sure it may have. It may have just
have to do with business reasons in manufacturing. I'm not
really sure why there's a shortage. Okay, I'm not sure that.
I don't think there's the shortest because it's been used
in a in abundance, but it's just not as widely
available as one as one may want it to be.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Right, Well, you know there's someone of diabetes. Medications have
been used. One of the secondary benefits is weight loss,
and one of these, at least one of these medications
have been used, and I think that a lot of
the insurance companies are are going to pull back on that.
I wasn't sure if that might have been somehow related
when you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Right, no, different story. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So so the bottom line is you should be able
to get it if your doctor or your parents doctor
whomever is treating your family member, if the if the
doctor agrees is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
That is that is correct.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
And let me let me also just say that this
was a first of its kind pilot study. Really, it
involves seventy five individuals with Alzheimer's type dementia who had
symptoms of agitation. The outcomes that we looked at were
agitation reduction over a period of three weeks, so not
three months or three years, but just three weeks. And
we compared it to a placebo inert non drug, just
(25:21):
the placebo pill, and we saw that difference and we
saw it was safe. So I just want to caution
people that this was really positive finding. It now needs
to be replicated in larger studies that are done probably
for a little longer period of time than three weeks,
and we're looking into that going forward.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Is there any downside? Was there any reason that a
doctor might say, again to the family member that's taking
care of the person who has Alzheimer's, look this too
much risk involved here? Or it Once the doctors are
familiar with this, do you think it will be readily
accepted even though it was a relatively small and a
(26:01):
small sample.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Size, right, Well, that's a great question, Dan. So the tolerability,
so the medication was very well tolerated by individuals, the
things that doctors would want to look out for, as
well as family members who have loved ones with dementia
if they take drin abanall would be sedation sleepiness, and
(26:23):
that would probably be the primary side effect. The dose
we're using is very low, so we didn't see a
ton of sleepiness in the side effect profile in the study.
And the other thing is it actually stimulates appetite. It
doesn't reduce appetite. It stimulates appetite, which for people with
dementia sometimes is a good thing when they've lost weight.
So from a tolerability perspective, it looked very safe. And
(26:45):
one thing to know is that some of the other
medicines we use off label for agitation and dementia are
actually known to have substantial side effects, not just sleepiness
and dizziness, but things like risk of stroke and risk
of mortality. So compared to the anti psychotic for example,
relatively speaking, this this seems much safer.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Doctor Forrester, thanks so much for what you do and
thanks for taking some time tonight. Hopefully there'll be some
patience out there or some caretakers for patients who have
heard about this. And again, the the it's a t
it's a synthetic THC. It's called drinabino d R O
N A B I N O L. Someone may want
(27:28):
to write that down and consult with your own physician,
or with your parents physician, or whoever is impacted. Thanks
so much for what you do. You've probably helped a
lot of people tonight.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
Thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
We'll talk again. Thanks very much. Well we get back.
We're going to help you navigate conversations during your Thanksgiving
dinner with family and friends. Five ways to keep peace
at the Thanksgiving table. It's going to be talking with
Juliana Defour, so she's she's gonna help us out and
(28:01):
tell us how we can have a more come and
more peaceful Thanksgiving dinner with all the politics. I mean, look,
if mom, Donnie and President Trump can get along as
they seem to get along today, this hope for all
of us. Back on Nightside after this.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
We're joined by Juliana DeFore and you are at ucy Berkley.
What do you do with Ucia?
Speaker 6 (28:30):
I am at Berkeley.
Speaker 7 (28:32):
Yeah, well, I run a program at a center called
the Greater Good Science Center, and our program brings people
together across different sizes. So we, in essence, look at
what the research says about how people stay connected.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You are going to tell us five ways to keep
peace at the Thanksgiving table. You've never had Thanksgiving dinner
with my family, that's for sure. Not only look, this
is a tough period time. Obviously, I've done this show
for a long time, and I remember back in twenty
sixteen after the Hillary Clinton Donald Trump election, I encourage
(29:09):
people to, you know, wear their buttons and their badges
and just have at it. And that didn't seem to work.
And then I've told people don't talk politics. That doesn't
seem to work. So give us some strategies that you've
figured out that can allow people to keep peace at
the Thanksgiving dinner table.
Speaker 6 (29:26):
Absolutely happy to do that.
Speaker 7 (29:29):
And I understand the holidays are a perfect stress test
for all of this, right with people you love, strong
opinions and a lot of expectations also in one room.
And our goal really is to help people get through
those conversations with less conflict and more connection. So happy
to walk you through a few tips that you can use.
Speaker 6 (29:52):
Ears so awesome. So I mean for starters, grounding yourself and.
Speaker 7 (29:59):
This one you can do before you say anything.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
Before you arrive, but also in the heat of the moment.
So say your relative says something.
Speaker 7 (30:08):
That you know, things you don't like. Your body reacts.
You feel anger, shame, or fear, whatever it is you're feeling,
and it's very easy to fire back.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
When you talk about feeling fear. Wait a second, nobody's
got a gun here. We're just talking about someone expressed
the political opinion that you probably didn't agree with. I
want to make sure we're not talking about something even
more serious. We're talking about the people. You got someone
over here who loves Donald Trump, and you got someone
over here who hates Donald Trump or whatever, and you're
(30:38):
in the middle of the crossfire. So how what would
you suggest people do?
Speaker 7 (30:43):
Yeah, and the thing is that, because of polarization and how.
Speaker 6 (30:48):
Implained things are, we can feel some of those disagreements.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
It's fear as.
Speaker 7 (30:52):
Well, believe it or not. So grounding yourself is so important, right,
you would take a pause, take a moment, and do
a technique that is research backed called self distancing, and
that simply means talking to yourself in the third person
instead of I so, for example, instead of I'm so angry,
I can't believe they said that, you silently say to yourself,
(31:17):
why is still.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
In your name, feeling so angry? Right now?
Speaker 7 (31:22):
Why am I'm feeling so angry?
Speaker 6 (31:25):
And what can I can.
Speaker 7 (31:27):
Say Juliana do next so that she won't regret this tomorrow?
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Right, So this little.
Speaker 7 (31:33):
Shift combined with a slow breath, helps you step back
from the heat of the moment, and it gives you
just enough distance to respond in line with your values
instead of reacting from pure emotion.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Time. So I am going to be able to do that.
That's a great suggestion. I talk to myself all the time,
all the time, everywhere.
Speaker 7 (31:54):
Awesome. So you're already self distancing.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Well, I don't know if I'm self distancing, but I
do talk to myself. So now I'm feeling a little grounded,
feeling better. What's what's the next thing I might be
able to do with Like all of a sudden, a
plate of mash potatoes goes flying across the table.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
That's funny.
Speaker 7 (32:14):
Well, the point here is that instead of arguing about
like policies or headlines, right, that you focus on personal stories.
So that would be the second technique. So you know,
questions like how did.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
You develop this belief or who influenced the way you
see the world.
Speaker 7 (32:32):
The most right, and those kinds of questions really pull
people from your wrong and I'm right and into here's
the experiences that shaped me. And you know, in surveys,
students who do this report more empathy and more connection
and more confidence in talking to people across differences, and
(32:53):
families can do the same right like, rather than debating
immigration or climate policy right in the abstract, sharing like,
here's an experience that.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
Really shaped how I see this, and then asking for their.
Speaker 7 (33:06):
Story too, and trading those stories rather than talking points
really changes everything.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
We find that people do soften.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
That's kind of what I try to do here on
the show. And I'm not joking when I say this.
What are the things I try to do with my program?
And I've done it for this for a long time,
and before that I worked in television. I try to
encourage people. I use the term I say, I don't
care what you think. I just want to make sure
you're thinking. Meaning all points of view on my program
(33:36):
are totally acceptable. Don't yell, don't scream if you can
have it, make it a conversation as opposed to a speech.
I'm assuming those are all pretty good techniques as well.
Correct Just to kind of keep it a little more civil.
Speaker 7 (33:52):
Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, all points of an issue being invited
into conversation is what we do when lee Bridge differences
and with like focusing on the story, it's more of
here's what happened to me, and.
Speaker 6 (34:05):
Then I'd like to hear what happened to you?
Speaker 7 (34:07):
And I mean Brenda Brown says you can't hate people
up close, and that's a little bit the gist of
this one technique that I just shared.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Well, I think it's very good. What do you do
with the person who just sits next to you at
Thanksgiving and you really don't want to engage because whatever,
maybe they've had a couple of drinks and they're really
intense and they're passionate. How do you and I know
we only have about a minute left, but is there
(34:37):
some little technique that you could share with us as
to what you can do to You're sitting there, you
can't move, you're having dinner, and this person has kind
of focused their attention on you and it's.
Speaker 7 (34:49):
Not Yeah, no, absolutely, Well, setting gentle boundaries when needed
is extremely important, right, and like letting people know that
you know, maybe you both care about this country, but
you just see the solutions.
Speaker 6 (35:07):
Differently might be what is needed, and if.
Speaker 7 (35:12):
It is harmful to you, then you see that common
turts and I need to break from this conversation. We're
very clear in our program that we're not asking people
to bridge at all costs, so knowing when to lean
in and when to protect your own well being is
absolutely essential.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I'm not talking about being physically, but just someone them
won't let it go, That's what I'm saying. Hey, Juliana,
you sound like you would be a great person to
share Thanksgiving with. I'll be thinking of you, Julian, Juliana
de four, Is there a way people could find your website?
Do you have a website you'd like to direct people to?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (35:47):
Absolutely. We can be found at Greater Good dot Berkeley
dot ee du and you can find all of our
bridging differences resources there as well, including a playbook with
fourteen science based skills for bridging differences in our general
Audience playbook and a new hire ed playbook with sixteen
science based skills for bridging differences.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Juliana, thank you very much. I'm sorry that we got
your last name mixed up and it's Juliana to four.
Thank you so much. Juliana, appreciate it very much. Have
a great thanks.
Speaker 7 (36:18):
Gay, Thank you you too.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
All right. Thanks. When we get back, we're going to
be talking about I know you won't believe this one,
but there actually is apparently a move afoot at the
Massachusetts Water Resources Authority that might want to increase the
amount of sewage that's dumped into the Charles River. We'll
explain it and hopefully we'll make people wear what's going on.
(36:43):
We'll be back on Night Side right after the nine
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