How SEO Grew Up With Cameron LiButti

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.

SPEAKER_01 (00:17):
Howdy, welcome back to another Funfold episode of
The Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, Matt Bertram.
I am really back.
I actually had some backlogs foreverybody that was listening
podcasts, and I was goingthrough an accelerated MBA
program through Goldman Sachs.
And uh, you know, that towardsthe end there was eating up a

(00:38):
lot of my time.
But uh I am back in the saddle,if you will.
I also, for anybody listeningand been kind of following what
I'm doing, I did buy out myother partners.
So I now fully own EWR Digital,and there's a lot of things that
we're gonna be uh talking aboutand doing.
But uh thank you all so much forthe support.
Uh Chris and I are actuallyhaving lunch after this podcast.

(01:01):
So we're gonna go meet up.
We're still on good terms, stilla client.
Um, but uh just kind of want tolet everybody know the big step
change happening.
And and I thought it'd be agreat time.
I know I've done thisperiodically, bring on other
agency owners to talk about umkind of where they're at and
kind of benchmark what's goingon and how things are changing.
There's actually a big agencyconference coming up that I'm

(01:22):
gonna be going to.
There's SEO week uh next weekthat I just don't have time for,
uh, but went last year, uh, alot of good guys there.
Um, Cameron, welcome to theshow, buddy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
Thanks, Matt.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
Hey, like, you know, I I love having these
conversations, kind of like afireside chat, letting everybody
kind of see what's going on.
There's just so much noise outthere.
There's so much that'shappening.
Um, it kind of makes your headspin, like new workflows, new
tools.
It's constantly pivoting, uh,new models coming out from an AI

(01:55):
standpoint of like which onesare the best, what to use, like
uh, you know, like cloud designjust came out.
Like, there's like it's veryhard to build a business with
everything constantly changing.
Um, but it's fun.
It's it's fun.
So uh why don't you tell theaudience a little bit, just kind
of about your background as wekind of get into conversation,

(02:15):
just kind of where you're comingfrom.

SPEAKER_03 (02:17):
Uh yeah, quick, quick background on me.
I was actually an engineer.
The marketing digital stuff wasaccidental.
Uh, just like starting theagency was accidental.
Um, I engineering consultant forright out of college, mechanical
engineering.
And then I started helping abuddy back in 2013.
And we were doing that, youknow, the thing back then that

(02:39):
worked was we were sellingsupplements like crazy online.
We were having fun.
Uh we got our hands slappedaround 2016 over the remarketing
lists, which if you have PPCpeople listening, they probably
remember those days.
Um 2019, I was talking to adoctor who was a friend, and he
kind of jokingly said, You talkabout marketing differently.

(03:01):
And I said, I well, I havenothing to sell you.
And I'm just like a purely likea data guy who does this for
myself.
And he said, Well, what if youhelped me?
And I was like, I don't know.
So, anyway, I helped him, and myname became well known in that
medical industry, and we've beenpartners with the uh it's a
national group of doctors eversince.
And honestly, we've never doneour own marketing.

(03:24):
Uh, the podcast circuit for thisyear is new for us because we've
just gotten so many referralsfor the last seven years that
it's just been all we canhandle.
So um, that's the the short ofit.
The SEO piece was probably themost natural piece for me, being
that I was an engineer, it justmade sense back in that 2015-16
when we were transitioning fromyou know manual algorithm

(03:46):
updates by humans into thatmachine.
I refer to AI, I'm still it's abad habit, but as machine
learning, because that's how Ilearned it, right?
Uh TensorFlow on Google was myfirst introduction.
I don't know if you ever playedwith that, but um, that's how I
got into AI was teaching myselfabout you know all the
probabilities inside ofTensorFlow.
Um, and so yeah, it was the mostnatural thing.

(04:07):
And then I helped a doctor, andit was just purely SEO.
I remember he uh he sent me apicture.
We started working with him inJuly.
He sent me a picture and hesells hearing aids, sent me a
picture in December.
They had this pegboard, and hesaid it was the first time in 30
years that the pegboard was fullof devices waiting to be picked

(04:27):
up.
And I'm this was 2019, so Imean, spoiler, it was 98% Google
business optimization.
He had competitors like droppingfake profiles on his on his
location to filter him out.
Uh it was just a lot of likecleanup stuff, and then
obviously I've evolved fromthere.
Um, we do well web dev.

(04:48):
Uh, I'm not I always joke, likeI'm an you're hiring the
engineer.
I have people who are gooddesigners and stuff, but we
couldn't early in the earlydays.
I was always trying to partnerwith developers, and it was
never going well.
It's like this isn't how youbuild a website, this doesn't,
you know, and they just didn'tunderstand the the marin of SEO

(05:08):
and good web dev, goodstorytelling, um, good branding.
So we brought that all in house,and that's what we've been
mainly doing those two piecesfor the last six and a half,
almost seven years.
Uh obviously we have to do PPCnow, which we are getting really
great results the last twoyears.
I'd say there was a period inlike that 20 to 22 where PPC was

(05:30):
kind of in Google seems to havereally dialed that in.
So we're into that.
Um, and then now we're we haveto be in AI now, right?
We don't really have a choice atthis point.
We have to know about it andunderstand it and be ready.
Yeah.
That's the quick view of who Iam.

SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Yeah, no, I I think um coming at it from an
engineering standpoint or evenlike a system thinking
standpoint is really how how toapproach it.
Um, you know, quick backgroundfor anybody that's just coming
on and listening.
Uh we we had kind of theopposite.
So we were doing uh webdevelopment, and then we and

(06:06):
then people quickly said, well,how do we get people to come
here and buy from us?
And so so that that led intoSEO.
I actually got introduced to theagency.
Um, I had uh sold a couplebusinesses and the podcast was
around the corner from my house.
And so uh I I wanted to go meetChris and and check it out.

(06:27):
And and I was really like a paidads guy.
Uh and the infrastructure ofunderstanding paid ads helped me
kind of understand what wasgoing on with SEO.
And that was really before theykind of lifted the curtain up
and uh showed you everythingthat's happening, and now
everything is out there to learnit in, I guess, the world of AI.

(06:47):
And and now we're really deepinto the engineering and the
math.
And like I feel like SEO haskind of grown up, if you will,
from what it used to be fromkind of like content, uh like
keyword optimization, likethere's a lot more that that
goes into it uh these days.
And uh it's really exciting.

SPEAKER_03 (07:06):
I see a lot of SEOs complaining, I don't know, where
Facebook groups and stuff abouthow they're attracting all this
attention because of AI.
I as somebody who owns abusiness, I'm curious if you
think this too, but as somebodywho owns a business, I like that
these CEOs and these businessowners are aware of it now
because now it gives me like astarting point to have a

(07:26):
conversation with them andexplain like, yes, AI search is
real, but that doesn't mean thefundamentals got thrown out the
window in the last 12 months.
They're I would argue moreimportant than ever.
And so I've I've really leanedinto that conversation.
But you are, you know, I've gotI can't tell you how many times
I get emailed forward from oneof our clients like, hey, they

(07:47):
said our client across thestreet is showing up in AI
search more than us.
Like, it's just a really good,it's a really good cold email.
Like, I I I'm not gonna send it,but if I was doing cold email,
I'd probably send it too.
We we had one yesterday, shepulled it up.
She's like, they're saying thethe business across the street
has more.
And I was took all of 10 secondsto just compare her on AHRAFs.

(08:10):
Like, this is your data, this isher data.
Please tell me where you'refailing.
And she goes, Oh, oh, yeah, butcompletely understand that
that's a lead gen email.

SPEAKER_01 (08:18):
Yeah, no, there, there, there's definitely uh a
lot of that uh happening.
Um, I I've actually seen a lotmore negative SEO uh happen,
even though Google said that'snot a thing.
Uh, I believe it's a thing.
Uh I know it's a thing.
I have some clients, it's athing.
Um, you know, I I think thatyou're right.
The conversation's beenelevated.

(08:39):
I think a lot of times thatconversation with the C-suite is
because paid ads can show aclear ROI.
Or, you know, uh nowattribution, I think it's
certainly debatable on, youknow, if you're running uh a
person's name, right, or thebrand name, especially when you
talk about the affiliates.
Like, so so quick, quick story,like where we can maybe uh

(09:00):
really connect on it.
Chris, Chris has actually a bigsupplement company that we
helped grow over the last coupleof years.
And and essentially we startedgetting into the affiliate
world, uh, and we were more onthe agency side and we started
getting into the affiliateworld.
And literally, like we hiredfour different companies, and it
was all straight like scams,basically, uh, where they were

(09:22):
just like um, you know, they'rethey're cannibalizing the search
volume we already generated andthen like attributing that to
them.
But I think that a lot of thatconversation, you know, their
last click attribution is reallya thing, and and CEOs could
understand that cleardelineation that came from this
platform, and hey, like this iswhat works.

(09:42):
SEOs haven't done a good jobexplaining what they're doing,
but now people are starting toask questions.
And so I think that there'sgonna be a lot more attention.
I think there's gonna be a lotmore um money that moves towards
SEO.
I think that uh SEOs are gonnaget paid more for what they have
to be able to do and what it'sencompassing.

(10:05):
And I think that, you know, SEOis growing into marketing and
marketing and SEO are almostkind of like uh the
architecture's been woven acrossthe board together, right?
Because you talk about social,you talk about paid, like it's
all affecting everything, right?
And then, you know, you add thisAI layer to what's happening.

(10:25):
And I mean, you know, I've beensaying this for over a year now,
like it's coming.
Like, whether you want to debateit or not, like whether you want
to like put your head in thesand, it's coming and you got to
understand it.
And and the more you like treatit like a very, very intelligent
person, it helps you do SEObetter across the board, it
helps you find things, it helpsyou see things.

(10:47):
And and so we've really leanedinto whatever you want to call
it AI, SEO, GEO, AEO, what likeeverybody's debating over that.
I'm just like, let's ship.

SPEAKER_03 (10:59):
I don't care what you call it, we got a win.
Um you talked about attribution.
Um, it's uh so uh harder.
So when I'm working, so we havea mix of clients with a lot of
doctors, lawyers, engineertypes, smart, very intelligent
people.
Not they're not like they'rejust not their specialty, is not

(11:19):
SEO.
Um, and then we work, we have ahandful of nine-figure brands
that we just do SEO for.
Those conversations with thenine-figure brands are
interesting because you'retalking to a marketing director
that does understand SEO.
Um, last year we had anine-figure brand contract with
them, and he said we were thefirst agency to talk to about

(11:43):
not caring about the brand.
And he said for years, SEOcompanies would show up and say,
Hey, well, look at all thistraffic you were getting.
And he was like, Well, I'm smartenough to know that 50% of that
is brand traffic, whatever thenumber is exactly, a majority of
it.
And I was the first one to belike, Well, you're failing here,
you're failing here, you'refailing here.
He's this is where we're gonnago win.
He's like, You're that to me toshow up and talk about

(12:05):
attributions, like these arewhere the buying terms are.
Um, that's a conversation I liketo have a lot with owners.
We've had a lot, and then on thelocal side, we've had a lot of
clients come to us and say, I'mgetting, you know, 4,000, 5,000
visitors a month.
I'm like, your market can'tsupport that much traffic.
You're just ranking for blogstuff.
You're getting, you're inChicago and you're getting, you
know, traffic from all over theUnited States.

(12:27):
Not that that's bad, but that'snot where your buyers are coming
from.
And there's been a handful ofclients where we have cut their
traffic in half by pruning andbeing more specific about their
topical map, and their phonesjust take off, right?
They're like, my phone isringing all the time, and
they'll see their trafficreport.
They'll be like, we're down 20%.
What's going on?

(12:47):
Like, because I don't it's notthat I don't care, but I I'm not
after that traffic.
I want the I always talk aboutlike the awareness level, right?
I want the people that are mostaware, ready to buy, that don't
know your name yet.
That's like an effective for meat the local level, that's the
most effective SEO strategy.
Again, not to say that thereisn't informational search isn't

(13:08):
important, important, but ifwe're gonna get cannibalized by
AI search, which we can show upin those informational searches,
get credit for them, but we knowpeople aren't converting
through.

SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Um yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I think that it's just forcingthe conversation to be what
needed to always happen, right?
Like you're like if your KPIsare traffic and you want to grow
traffic, and you're you'reyou're ranking for all these
blog terms that you're rankingfor 5,000 blog terms, and like

(13:40):
you know, you're a local smallbusiness.
Like, does that help you?
Like, if that's the metricyou're going, oh, we're our
traffic's going down, right?
Like, who cares about yourtraffic, right?
Like, like I'm like, what arethe events happening in GA4?
Like, what are the events youhave set up?
Like, let's get to the buyingsignals, like you said.
And and I think one of the bestthings that happened was when

(14:02):
they started breaking apartcontent into different
categories, and then they juststarted throwing informational
search out there in Google andsay, Hey, like you're gonna show
up for this, it's gonna buildyour brand, that's great.
But that's not the goal of a lotof businesses.
And and there, there a lot ofpeople have posted charts on
social media that their brandtraffic's going way down, but

(14:23):
the revenue, which we shouldalways be talking about, that's
the conversation with the CEOs,is going up.
And so it's kind of like a mootpoint, uh, you know, it's just
like we're we're driving morerevenue.
Let's look at different numbers.
Like you've been trained to lookat things that are not useful.
Um and so I think that thataligns the conversation better,

(14:44):
and now people are starting tounderstand it more.
And there's that kind of levelof curiosity uh um uh to AI.
And, you know, I mean, there's alot of like very curious CEOs
out there about AI.
And the conversation for us ismore moving into um, you know,
how is it moving into theworkflow?

(15:05):
How is it moving outside ofmarketing?
And and I think marketers in areally strong position because
we were impacted first, youknow, now legal review, you got
HR, you you got all these otherareas that AI is dipping into,
but it it impacted marketing andknowledge work first.
And so, I mean, I was eventalking to some engineers and

(15:25):
like they're like, oh yeah, wewere we were doing this, we were
doing that.
And I was just like, I'm in thislike all day long, every day,
multiple windows open, like, youknow, and you're you're like,
oh, like I wanted to, you know,do something on a spreadsheet.
And I was just like, okay, likethat's cool.
And I and I think that there's Ithink that there's gonna be a
lot of people that like that ifyou're an engineer or you're a

(15:49):
developer, that you you're gonnaget some compound leverage in in
what's happening, at least inthe short term.
I mean, I don't know where wherewhere the future goes and and
you see the numbers kind ofstraight up.
Uh so I mean we'll we'll see.
I I think it's you know, I thinkit's adoption faster than even
the internet.
And look what happened withthat, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (16:10):
So so we're trying to build this, it might be a
little outside the scope ofreally what you usually talk
about.
But if if the people listeningare familiar with what I call
like our agentic harnesses, butessentially it's a folder,
right?
This is people use this vaguelanguage.
I'm coming from the engineeringworld, I'm sensitive to this
because I think people try to dospeak like this to talk over

(16:31):
you.
And when someone says like aharness, it's just a folder
system with a set ofinstructions.
And I just show all of thepeople this all like it's just a
folder.
There's an agent folder, there'sa memory file, and you can make
them more advanced, but at thecore, that's what it is.
And you set up some routines andcron jobs and some automations,
but that is really what uh anagent is, and then you plug in

(16:54):
different intelligence, and souh I'm getting to it to my
point, but I just like baselineunderstand what this is.
So let's say you have a, I don'tknow, a keyword research agent
that is you've given it its itsAHREFs, maybe you've given it
HRFs API, um, you've given itsome other gets backlink data,
search data.
Um, you can build that agent.
And when you run it, maybe youyou you can interface it with it

(17:17):
in many different ways.
Let's say you're interfacing ituh through Claude.
And when you interface it, itgoes out and does those things.
And and and so the way that mycompany is transitioning, as you
talk about workflows, is we'retrying to make a company-wide
agent harness, meaning thatevery area of the business can
plug and play with uh differentintelligence.

(17:39):
So we have like visualregression AIs where we're
looking to see if a clientchange, right?
Our clients like to have accessto their site.
And so we run that once a day.
It just visually looks it over,compares it to the day before,
it says, hey, something visuallyno longer makes sense.
It pings a developer, right?
It's just watching, it's notmaking changes.
So we're trying to build thesetypes of agent harnesses across

(18:00):
the business that um, if as youhave a lot of people listening
here that do SEO, understand howburied in data you are all the
time, how many spreadsheets andhistoric data, and you're trying
to look at trends and how do youmake better decisions.
And so that's where we'reimplementing AI is not making
the decisions, but surfacingsome issues faster so that we as

(18:21):
the experts can make thosedecisions quicker.
So, yeah, maybe a little outsidethe scope, but that's a workflow
that workflows it's kind ofpretty much touching every area
of our business at this point.
Uh, the hardest one to be ableto crack has been design.
It just they do it, but theydon't do it like if and this is
dependent on your clients.
Like if you want to order aFiverr website, AIs can pretty

(18:43):
much, they're all gonna dobetter than that now.
But if you're I'm assuming withyou, definitely with like my
company, we if you're gonnaorder or you're gonna work with
us for a website, you're not,you're gonna get a creative
director, you're gonna, youknow, you're going all in on
what your hopes and dreams are.
And so AI really is not quitethere yet on the design side.
It looks good to an untrainedeye, but if you show that to a

(19:05):
creative director, like, ah,that's not quite there.
But other side, the technical,the data side, we are finding a
lot of use cases right now.

SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
Yeah, a lot of these AI generated websites, you can
kind of tell they have a certainlook to them, unless uh you you
really feed in and it ingests alot of the client data.
And so like the ingesting of themodels per per the client, and
you know, it then the clientscome in and say, Well, oh, I
actually don't like the voice, Idon't like uh the post on

(19:31):
social, I don't like my websitelanguage, I need to redo it all.
And I was like, Well, okay,well, AI is not gonna give us
the leverage here that we werelooking for.
And they're like, No, I'mlooking for a total revamp.
And it's like, okay, well, yeah,you need a creative director,
you need to do all these things.
But if you're like trying tolike keep going with what you
got, like there, there, there'ssome some some really good
opportunities.

(19:52):
I I really liked actually whereyou were going.
Like, so I mean, APIs, likethey're so helpful.
Like, there's you know, thesecrets, there's the keys, like
talk, talk for baseline forpeople.
Basically, you're just giving ittools and access to do all this
stuff.
And then you can build, like youcan build different skills or a

(20:13):
way to utilize this data ororchestrate what's happening
with the agents.
I would love for you to build onwhat you said because I think
that that's where the realconversation is going.
Is like, okay, like if you wantto build this layer that
everybody's gonna talk to, youyou probably need to start using
GitHub, right?

(20:34):
Like you need to start droppingsome stuff in here so so people
can talk.
You might need to start usingClaude Cowork or, you know, like
Codex is really for like a poweruser if you're a big chat GPT
person or Claude Code.
Like, but the but how do you getthe whole company elevated?

SPEAKER_03 (20:51):
I think is that next conversation where where I think
it's gonna go into like so my Ibeing an engineer, I love AI so
much that on the side I do helpand consult on AI.
Um, doing actually a class nextweek with a local sales company
about it.
Um you brought up GitHub.

(21:12):
So I the hardest part about AIright now is that it's you know,
we all hear the 80, 20, youknow, they're 20 just 80% of the
work.
Those people are off and runningbecause they are creating their
own ecosystem that just OPsthem, right?
Overpowers them.
But what does it look likecompany wide?
So we have 14 people here.

(21:33):
How do you set standards so thateverybody's not running in a
million directions?
I just read an article this weekabout somebody at Amazon.
Their entire job is to findagents in Amazon.
And he said they are findingevery team.
It's so easy to stand up anagent.
I mean, I explained to you, it'sliterally a folder system.
It's so easy to stand up anagent for a semi technical

(21:54):
person that the company is justrunning wild and it's turning
into just this mess ofspaghetti.
So to me, it's it's actually anoperation, it's a comp, it's a
weird personality that has tosolve for this because not only
do you have to be an operationsperson, which are people people,
they're not technology people,you also need to have a
technology person, an IT-likeper mind.

(22:15):
And those people usually don'tcross over very well.
And so the thing that I havefocused on a lot in my business
is what is the operationalstructure?
What is the org structure?
I think I think we're thebusinesses that get out ahead
are gonna have org charts thatmix both people and agents into
them and have very clear,definitive, like this is where

(22:39):
the agent stops, or this iswhere the human starts, or vice
versa.
Uh so you you know you justbrought up GitHub.
I that's the best way I know howto do it right now.
You can put these folder, right?
You just put a folder intoGitHub and then a bit of a
technical term, but I even mynon-technical people have to
have uh IDE.
So the IDEs that we use areeither anti-gravity from Google

(23:01):
or VS Code, which anti-gravitywas built on VS Code, if that
matters.
Um, but these are development umenvironments, and so people see
this, non-technical people seethese tools and they're like, I
that is nope.

SPEAKER_01 (23:14):
Like inbuto, like let's spin up some Python,
right?
Like, there's there's all theselayers from an engineering
standpoint that you have to puttogether to utilize these things
in these environments, and it'snew for a lot of marketers, it's
very new, and so we've pushed somy SEO, which was interesting.

SPEAKER_03 (23:31):
My SEO team was more excited about the IDEs than the
development teams.
We develop internally, wedevelop all in WordPress.
Uh, if we build outside ofWordPress, we'll partner with an
agency.
That's usually when we'regetting into larger clients.
But the WordPress developers didnot do not want to touch the ID.
They're like, I don't know whatthis is, I don't know how to use

(23:51):
it, I know how to move block andcode editors around inside of
Elementor or whatever they'reusing.
Where the SEO team um on the SEOteam, we have non-technical
SEOs, which means like the linkbuilders and the content
writers, those people end up onthe SEO team.
And then obviously we have thethe back-end technical SEO
people.
Um, but the non-technical SEOpeople took to it right away

(24:15):
because they recognized how easyit was to fix a lot of their um
spreadsheets or connect tosomething and look, use an API
to pull data faster.
Like I was doing this allmanually.
Now I can just connect, pull itin, I can push it up into a
spreadsheet, or I can write anapp script with this, put that
into a spreadsheet.
So it's given them, they've justsprinted away with it.

(24:36):
It's been incredible.
I like super proud of those, butthat team.
Um disclaimer on the ID when youget into it.
Uh, again, a little outside thescope of this, but learn what
a.env file is really fast.

SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Like, if I give you one security protocol, like
understand, like you're we don'tshare it, don't share it in the
in the field because then it'llgo to whatever place is
processing it.
So I think the next layer afterthis, Cameron, yeah, is like, I
mean, and this is where we'reat, right?
Like if people want to know likewhere we're at, we're exploring

(25:10):
setting up some of the opensource.
Like, there's there's new stuffthat's just come out that it
like it doesn't take as muchsetup as it did in the past.
And putting it on a server whereall the data stays, and you're
talking about like legal clientsor you know, uh HIPAA with
doctors and stuff like that.
A lot of these clients, you'vegot to, you've got to use the

(25:30):
enterprise tier to get the termsof you know, terms of service
where they're not gonna doanything with the data.
But keeping it on your ownserver, keeping all that
information in-house is wherekind of legal and medical, that
that that's like in theseregulated industries, that's
really what their big concernis.
Because I mean, think aboutthese these major LLM companies

(25:51):
or AI companies, whatever youwant to call it, technology
companies, have everyone's data.
And I mean, you know, like,oops, oh, those keys are gone.
Like now we got to go reset allthe keys in the EMV file.
And and also the weird thing isyou even set these rules
sometimes, okay?
Yeah, and then it like you'vegot to reminder like, hey,

(26:12):
remember not to do this, like,don't do this.
Like, it's like a reallyintelligent individual, but also
it's weird how they sometimes,even if you set rules, sometimes
they forget them or makemistakes, or how it's I think
memory, I think memory is thenext big conversation as well.
Like, so where stuff's housedand how like so.

(26:32):
How are you?
What is your data memorystructure?
Uh that's an interestingquestion.

SPEAKER_03 (26:38):
So that's why I don't like people working in
their um, I don't like peopleworking in the uh the chat
windows because of that.
So so anybody who's listening,if you worked in a chat, you'll
be half an hour in and then itjust seems to all forget.
If anybody's played with openclaw when it first came out, you

(26:59):
that was when you felt it theworst.
Like you'd be you'd be 45 hourhour in, and all of a sudden it
just like it was like someoneerased its memory.
It's like what it comes itcompacted, it just compressed
it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
It just compressed it all, and it just like you
gotta be familiar with anythingyou talk about, like you should
be closing out those sessions tokeep it really tight.
And that's what I've seen onlike enterprise setups, like
it's very, very tight oneverything that's done.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
So we'll build the folder structure.
So SEO, this SEO.
So I'll build, I have an I havean SEO audit folder, right?
And so that has inside if likeit's a template.
So you go in there, it has anagent file that tells the agent
what it needs to do.
Um, you have a you know, havea.env file that has the the API
keys that we might connect to.

(27:45):
It has a memory file um that'sgeneral memory.
So when I when I fire that off,um, I'm in an IDE with the
folder structure open.
I use cloud code in my IDE.
My team uses all of them, but Iparticularly use that one.
I'll open a cloud code window,right?
And so what I will let's saysomething happened with that
audit the last time I didn'tlike.

(28:07):
I can use that cloud code toedit the instructions of that
folder, but I'm not gonna workin that that window when I go to
actually run an audit.
I'll open another window.
So I do this all the time.
I'll have a cloud uh code windowopen, I'll be running an audit,
and something will happen that Ididn't like.
Obviously, my instructions wereoff or wrong, or it just wasn't

(28:28):
there.
I'll go back to the windowthat's coding the agent, I'll
change it there because it hasall that context, and then I
will switch back to the auditwindow, and we so I'm not
losing, I'm not overlapping, I'mnot mixing uh it's its memory on
what it's doing.
But the folder system is allgetting updated in real time.

(28:50):
So the folder system staystight.
Um, so yesterday I built, I wastrying to figure out
prototyping.
So one of the issues we run intois directionally, like, how do
we get clients to agree to a webdesign faster?
Um because it takes so muchtime.
You know, you got to go throughdiscovery, then you got the
design, and like it's two tothree weeks, they're gonna see
design.

(29:10):
How how cool would it be?
They're excited, you know, 48,72 hours later, you're like,
hey, is this kind of thedirection you were?
Yeah, oh my gosh, I love that.
Well, so I was building an agentthat helped do that, and so you
know, I was opening multiplewindows.
So the first agent I built it,the second agent I tried to run
a first pass at it, it messedup.
And then I was like, All right,this is where you messed up.

(29:31):
So it was editing itself, and Iopened a third window.
Now it has none of the contextof the previous two, it only has
the context of the memory file,what it's written, and so you
can keep it clean and you cantest.
And so these are like littlethings.
If you don't spend time in AI,you don't find them.
You like the sales team that Iknow, they just sit in their
chat window, and he's like, Ijust forgot.

(29:53):
I'm like, you gotta get out ofthe chat window.
It's too memory intensive on thelike anthropic or open it,
they're not gonna, they're notgonna have that persistent
memory the way you can build ityourself.
So um, that's a little bit onmemory how we do it, how I do
it.

SPEAKER_01 (30:08):
And yeah, no, though I think that that's a good best
practice.
I would say also don't keep youruh IN uh in V file open because
like it can sometimes copy andpull from that accidentally.
Like there's some bad, like forme, I dove into AI right away,
but as kind of I don't know,influence or whatever, I didn't
talk about it.

(30:28):
Like I didn't talk about it.
I I was I I'm like, I need tounderstand this stuff before
before I say anything.
So I went back and took a lot ofclasses.
I I did a lot of education tobuild like the transistor
foundation, like how does itwork?
Like what goes into it?
Like, you got to know a lotabout programming.

(30:49):
Uh, not not like you don't needto know how to code, but you
need to know how programmingworks and how uh engineers
think.
And so being an engineer, likeyou you got this like you know,
a head start for a lot ofpeople, but I mean, I I think
everybody felt it too.
Like when you take anon-technical person and they're
like, oh, here's how we haveFacebook set up, and there's

(31:12):
like three tiers.
Like for almost everybody I'vetalked to, they're like, what?
There's three different loginsand three different permission
sets that do like that, like yousaid, that that transition of
thinking this way and then this,like wasn't happening.
I think even early on now, Ithink it's getting better and
better, it's more intuitive.
But you like right now, likelike you're talking about

(31:36):
everybody, like individuals thatare like power users building
their own ecosystems,absolutely.
And it's like, okay, so you havea couple people that are off to
the races, and then you're like,okay, other people are getting
left behind.
How do we get on a system thatlike everybody can use it?
And we were starting to do likecustom GPTs or gems or whatever
you want to call it to buildthose kind of little data lakes

(31:57):
for clients and stuff like thatearly on.
But then there's like the stepchange of, okay, like let's go
fully agentic.
Okay, like what do we want togive maxis to?
And all the horror stories,which there's actually a paper I
really want to read that justcame out of like basically they
they let the agents run loose.
But I mean, that's basicallywhat open claw was, right?
Like a bunch of people thatdon't know how how these things

(32:19):
work or what how to set uprules, just sort of like, here's
my credit card, and like, youknow, here here's access to like
my email and like everything.
And just like, let's see whatthey do, right?
And then there's cron jobsrunning in the background, and
like crazy things are happening.
And I I don't know how much ofthat was sensationalized, but
but you know, like what it wasat that uh uh that platform

(32:41):
where they all talked, uh whatlike the chip would you know
what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 (32:44):
Like what they they saw the book or whatever.
Yeah, they let their agents gowild and create like a social
media, and it looked like itlooked like they were plotting
against us, and then it came outthat people were like figured
out how to make them post.
Like it was why it was a wild 72hours.

SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
Yeah, yeah.
So that then I I think I think alot of people are really unsure
uh of AI um and they don'tunderstand how it works.
And I've heard some likedifferent things, and you know,
even in the past, we you know wewe had a couple of people on our
team when it came out thatreally weren't weren't
comfortable with it and we hadto part ways.
And you know, I I think that uhwhat's funny is now some of

(33:22):
those people are I can tellbecause they got the um dashes
and and their posts, right?
Like, but um I I don't know, Ithink it's a really crazy world
right now.
And I I I think I would go backto saying the marketers that can
understand how to use this anduse it early are are gonna have
a huge advantage.
And I what I'm seeing is I'mgetting a lot of requests like

(33:46):
you to move outside ofmarketing, to move into more
operations, to move into appliedAI in different areas.
And I mean, it's kind of likeSEO, right?
Like you do it in this industry,you do it in this industry.
It's still the basic foundation.
And so now you have this kind ofAI layer that you understand.
And when you look through thethe that that that lens or or

(34:08):
those glasses, if you will, youcan apply it to almost anything
once you understand like how itworks or what the workflow is.
And I mean, one of the datapoints that was just shocking,
and I and I believe I've sharedit in the past, but 71% of
businesses are still operatinglike the industrial area.
And an example of that iscopying and pasting

(34:30):
spreadsheets.
And I've I've had people show metheir workflow of their job, and
they're going into this databaseand they're copying this and
they're pasting it here, andthen they're grabbing that or
something with a screenshot, andthey're sending an email here,
and I was like, okay.
And I was like, what else areyou doing?
And I'm like, no, that's mywhole job.
And I was just like, okay.

(34:52):
So then I'm like going back totheir the owner, and I'm like,
okay, so I know you really likethis person, like, what else can
you have them do?
Because we can just automatethis whole thing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (35:02):
Yes, I talk about that a lot with friends uh when
they're like, Well, I don't evenknow what to use AI for.
I'm like, be be curious, likethat to me is so I had a buddy,
this was early on.
He was the first person to builda company with AI just to see if
he could he's a real psycho in aloving way, like just a real

(35:24):
special human.
And he used Replet.
This was early, so 26.
He built this in he startedbuilding it in late 24.
Um, and so they did he make thisreally clear.
He does his regular company thathe owns does over 30 million

(35:44):
dollars a year.
He just did this just for fun tosee if he could automated the
whole thing with AI before AIcould really do any of this, and
he built uh a little businessthat did$500,000 almost
completely automated.
The only thing they couldn'tsolve for at the time was uh
graphic design, and so they hadthey had a graphic designer in
doing the work.

(36:04):
But other than that, all the allthe the cold email, cold
everything.
Um, it was a it was a uh uh amarket that you know didn't have
a there was no leader in it.
So it was he just trippedtripped over it and it was a
great but he he coded up anentire CRM with Replit.
It was the first time I sawsomebody like do really do

(36:25):
business with AI, and I waslike, okay, we are past the this
is cool phase, this can help mewrite a blog phase, this is like
real now.
Um, and then obviously we allknow what's December 5th with
the Opus release.
It was like the this is this isreal now.
Um, and all of all of us thathad been playing with it who who

(36:45):
were who were using it but stillcould see where there were
holes, kind of started seeingthose holes get closed.
And um a friend got uh preview.
He has a job that has governmentcontracts.
He got a preview of it.
He got a preview of it thisweek, yeah, at work.

SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
Yeah, I've heard that.

SPEAKER_03 (37:02):
I there's a couple people I've talked to that are
kind of yeah, and you don'tknow, like Anthropic is
obviously very good at PR, soyou don't really know.
Like, is it really as great asthey say they are?
And he said it's prettyincredible.
It is it is essentially for uhpeople who don't know.
So there's they call it a relfloop.

(37:23):
It was essentially a set ofinstructions.

SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
Yeah, yeah, that there's a harness, there's a
harness out there, yeah.
Uh-huh.
It's swarm and everything.

SPEAKER_03 (37:30):
Yeah, this does it on its own.
You don't need the relf loopanymore.
It is it is that's how hedescribed it.
He's like, I don't have wordsexactly, but it it self-heals,
meaning, like, it is yeah, yougive it an objective and it
knows to kind of keepcirculating uh until it meets it
and corrects its code base onits way.
So we'll see.
Uh, I don't think they have thecompute capacity to re-release

(37:52):
it.
I don't, you know, I knowthey're claiming it's a security
threat, which it probably is,but also they don't have the
compute for it.
So we'll see.
Uh we'll see what happens withit.
I know companies like his arethey're getting it previewed
right now.

SPEAKER_01 (38:07):
What where do you see the future is going?
Like where, like with knowingall this, like the the question
that I have started to ask, andyou know, like people are
sensationalizing stuff, but notreally, because like I mean,
some of the questions like thatI've asked just to the chat bot,
right?
Like, not to quad code oranything like that.

(38:28):
Like, like what is gonna be theuptake, right?
Like, who's gonna actuallyreally use this and how many
people and how quickly is thatcompression gonna happen?
Because I've I've really seenwhen people jump on it, boom,
like they catch up really quick,right?
And so I'm going, okay, how manypeople are gonna catch up on

(38:49):
this?
And then what does the worldlook like?
And then, like, okay, the peoplethat don't, what does that world
look like?
Right.
And I'm going, like, the future,like from a workflow standpoint,
is constantly changing.
And I think marketers have anadvantage because it's always
been constantly changing.
So when I tell my team, like,here's a new, here, here's the
new workflow, like, they're notgonna like flip out, right?

(39:10):
Because at other companies,like, you go, we're gonna change
this.
There's the whole likepsychology and you know, like
community culture that that likewe're not changing sort of
thing.
But I feel like marketers arelike, okay, like this with this
is gonna change, like this isthe new tactic, whatever.
Um, I don't know what it whatare you seeing, or like kind of
what what would you predict inyour crystal ball if you were to

(39:33):
look forward?

SPEAKER_03 (39:34):
So I I I am very optimistic as an engineer.
Uh, I have robots sitting on theother side of the wall because
at some point I will go backinto robotics because I love it.
But if I am looking at so I mymy biggest concern is that like
the use and eyes of the world.
So I'm older millennial, and wehave the 20 years of experience,

(39:59):
so AI is just like a superpowerto us, but we've put in all of
the reps already, so this justmakes us that much better.
So I have a lot of law, I'm inChicago, so I have a lot of law
firm friends, and so one oftheir concerns are how do we
train the cup the kids comingright out of law school?
We don't all that like busy workwe just gave them to get reps is

(40:20):
just done by AI, can be done byAI.
So where I'm not optimistic islike, what do we do to train
people to get to that point intheir career where they are
experts?
If AI is capable of doing thatdirty rep work cheaper, how do
we build, how do we make theexperts of the world in 10

(40:42):
years, 15 years, 20 years?
I I don't I know AI is gonnacontinue to get better.
I don't foresee, I don't thinkwe land on the like the
complete, you know, a utopianside of it.
I think it still has it stillhas to be aimed directionally by
experts in humans.
Um, and and so it's for me thethe the negative or the question

(41:04):
I have is how do you get theyoung people up to where they
need to be?
Because once, like you said,once you get to like our stage,
like the people at my companythat are experts are flying.
It's the people that quiteweren't quite experts, they
don't know enough to ask theright questions yet.
They're the ones struggling withit.
They're like, I don't know whatto say.

(41:24):
And so we're I'm trying to a lotof what I think about is how do
I build education for my teamaround like how do you build a
website with AI?
So we're testing, we are aWordPress company, but we are
testing other platforms becausewe know the AI stuff is coming.
Um, and then obviously we seestep functions, so maybe it just
continues to get better andbetter where it gets you don't

(41:45):
have to be in the ID.

SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
I I think people are gonna build stuff that you can
put just off the shelf, plug itin, and so that that those
things that waterfalls or orthat orchestration's already
kind of pre-built.
Um there's uh what was it?
Uh there are goji or somethinglike that.
Someone showed me that.
It's it's interesting.
There, there's a bunch of likelittle tools out there that are

(42:08):
not like core, they're likecertainly like satellites that
people are playing with, butpeople are trying to build some
of these things like off-shelfand you can like plug in and do
different things.
And it really comes back to likewhat is your mental model?
And like, how do you look atthese things and how do you
understand?
And like, I we spent a lot oftime on prompt engineering,
okay?

(42:29):
And even before that, when youtalk about the reps, it's like
how articulate can you be,whether it's an SOP or just
communication?
Like, so like communication, howclear can you be?
And if if you're putting in youknow poorly designed prompts and
you're not communicating well,the AI, as smart as it is, it

(42:51):
can understand like misspellingsand this, that, but it can't
understand exactly what youmean.
So I think the core skill set isalmost like communication,
right?
And like even if you're like,okay, quite good plan mode,
whatever, like you need todescribe exactly what you want
and those nuances of where yougot the reps in of what good

(43:12):
looks like are so importantbecause if not, you're just
like, oh, looks good building,right?
And I've done like, oh, looksgood building.
I've burned a bunch of tokens,and then I'm like, ah, that's
not what I wanted, right?
Right.
Like, so you gotta like slowdown and and really like
understand everything and readevery line of code and like you
know what I mean?
Like, not every line of code,but like you need to know what

(43:34):
what is happening.
Um, and then like I've startedto like, you know, I I work a
little different than you, butlike I'm color coding like the
you know, the the the differentsessions and like I have labels
and I have like I've builtlittle things on like where I'm
at on like token usage becauseyou know, like you don't want it
because it every time.
So for everybody listening,another pro tip out there is if

(43:56):
you don't, if you want to liketoken management is important
and so.
So, like also good bestpractices.
If you if you don't want thatinformation to be compressed,
which it will just happen, butit will forget some stuff, and
you want to kind of orchestratehow how you want that to happen
a little bit more.
Like, know that when you'retyping, it looks at everything

(44:17):
that you put in that field.
So, like you said, going to theother fields, making the change,
and then it's instantaneous soyou can see the change in the
next window.
That that does make a lot ofsense.
But like, I don't think peopleunderstand that.
It's like you have this hugeconversation and then you've
changed topic, it has to readeverything context-wise, yeah uh

(44:39):
to before it gives you theanswer.
And it's burning tokens to dothat.
And so, like that's that's evenlike with this tool, like a lot
of these other tools.
That's why we're even going,okay, well, we're gonna need to
build our own open source, whichthat's crazy.
So, like, whether mythos is likelike, who knows, right?

SPEAKER_02 (44:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (44:58):
But today, the technology today, yeah, is mind
blowing, right?
And if you can say, okay, I'mgonna put that on our own server
and I'm gonna have, I'm gonna,you know, sovereign, my my my
information is gonna besovereign.
It's gonna be my information,it's not gonna be processed,
like everything you put in ChatGPT, by the way, never goes

(45:19):
away, everybody.
Uh so you know, like what wasyou know, what was Facebook?
A surveillance tool, right?
I don't know.
But like what I would tell youis um like once you have like
this has been unleashed, likethe like it's like Pandora's
box, like it's out of the box,and now like all this kind of

(45:39):
you know, inference andcross-training of these models,
it's scary.
Like, actually, I'm likelegitimately like scared, like
like there's so much good, andthen there's like so much bad
that could come of all this, andlike I think the only way to be
prepared is to like understandit and know and not like put
your head in the sand, but it'sso powerful and like it's

(46:02):
democratized now, and everybodyhas access to it.
You just gotta go learn it.

SPEAKER_03 (46:06):
So we're considering, I'm curious if you
this has crossed your mind as anagency owner.
We're considering building ourown cluster so that we can
manipulate model weights.
Uh, and then right, we'll haveour agent at Harness that is
Bidview, right?
Uh, but right now we we use weuse Cloud, we use Gemini, we use
we use Codex.

(46:27):
Uh but instead of using thosemodels, we use our open source
model that we host on our owncomputer cluster that is the
model weights are manipulated byus.
In this inst instance, it wouldbe for marketing.
Uh we're considering doing thatbecause I think we will get we
will eventually get to clientsthat are concerned about their

(46:49):
data.
I mean, we don't, I mean, SEOdata is they're not concerned
about that, but we'll probablyget into a situation where there
is client data passing through awebsite that they're worried
about, and we need to tell themor explain to them how we secure
that or we keep it safe.
And and so that's one of thethings I'm considering this
year.
But the leaps that keep yeah,the leaps that just keep

(47:10):
happening, it's hard to committo like I'd have to have a
person on staff that cancontinually update model weights
of a model to keep it like it'sa it's a question, is it's a
hard thing to solve for.
We're considering it, but I Ithink Bidview has to be a little
bigger to hire the appropriateperson to come in and help us

(47:31):
manage a system like that.

SPEAKER_01 (47:33):
Yeah, uh, I mean, we've looked at like Kim Key 2.5
and like we we've we've lookedat some things.
It was we haven't looked at itfor us as much.
Um, I have like two things tosay about what you just shared.
It was mainly for clients thatwant to set up their their own
setup, right?
Like, and that's where a lot ofthe conversations have come in.

(47:55):
Like, okay, you understand this.
We need to we need to injectthis layer into our team.
How do we do that?
But we're in a regulatedindustry, so so what do we do
about that?
There's also in Texas, there'ssome laws that are about to go
live.
Uh, like there's a lot of thingsthat are gonna go live in
September.
So I think a lot ofconversation, like even

(48:16):
nationally, like so it's aboutgovernance, it's about AI
policy, what's happening withthis data.
I think to your point, like alot of clients, like, I'm like,
no, you got to get give me yourold client list and we'll upload
it to Facebook and we'll makelike a lookalike audience,
right?
And they're really leery ofthat, right?

(48:37):
They're really leery of that.
And I go, I understand whyyou're leery, but I'll tell you
they have all the data and theyare and they're only gonna
they're they're only gonna hashmatch it if if they have it.
And if they have it, theyalready have it.
Like they like so if it, youknow, if like 80% of the emails
match, like, you know, okay, yougave them 20%, but like these
big companies have so much data.

(48:59):
I I'm actually more concernedwith uh what it what it like
quantum computing, like right,like at that point, like like
you know, you that you don't youdon't have any so so okay, so
you just assume like it's allout there, but but I do think
that like you know, you couldput you can say don't train the
model, like I would encourageeverybody to go kind of look at

(49:21):
that, look at the terms ofservice, put the terms of
service in a uh LOM and thencome up with your own policy for
vendors of what you want them todo with it.
Like, who knows what's happeningnow?
What you're saying with Amazonmakes perfect sense.
Um, you know, and and I I thinkthat uh a lot of these companies
don't have policies and they'rejust spinning up all kinds of

(49:42):
stuff, and then others are like,don't use it at all.
And so, like, where's that happymedium?
And I think that that's wherethe next conversation is gonna
be is around governance.
I think we hit on a lot ofthings that I think we'll see
over the next you know, sixmonths or year.
But to your point, like, yeah, Ihaven't totally thought about
that because like the overheadto do that, um it hasn't been an

(50:05):
issue from from clients yet.

SPEAKER_02 (50:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (50:08):
Um, and we're trying to be as you know, like like
responsible with their data asas possible.
Um you know, and I don't know.
I I think it I think what arethe relationships that Google
has with Gemini, right?
Like they already have all thatdata.
Like, okay, Mantis haseverything from Facebook and the

(50:30):
whole, you know, uh like likewe'll we'll use Mantis.
Well, here's the interestingthing.
They still on the engineeringside on the silos, we're running
like we were trying to like runsome Mantis ads, and then it was
like saying that these ads likeare not gonna work.
And or if you like even use likeuh if you use uh whatever the

(50:50):
I'm sure it's Mantis, whateverthey're calling it, meta AI,
like to generate images inFacebook, they're uh down
promoting uh their own images.
Like they haven't turned on,like so.
I've I was I was like, oh, letme use their images because you
know anything new that you comeout with, right?
It'll it'll it'll kind of giveit an extra boost.
So I started using it and I waslike, oh, it's it's like

(51:13):
depromoting like my post becauseI'm using their own video image
uh generator.
And I was like, okay, but if Iif I use like a chat GPT or
whatever, um, you know, like itit will do fine.
And I'm like, yeah, so so so Imean, I think this stuff is
really just moving so fast thatlike once that curve maybe

(51:34):
starts to S-curve flatten out,we can kind of see see what's
happening.
But man, the world's gonna lookreally, really different at that
time.
And I mean, I don't know.
Like, I is SEO gonna be a thing?
What does that transform into?
What does marketing look like?
Like, I think that goodunderstanding of branding and
marketing and thosefundamentals, like those reps,

(51:55):
like I think we're gonna be in areally good position.
But yeah, that's what'shappening.
Uh, sorry, I'm like going on aspiel here, but but um that's
what I'm hearing from lawassociates, like you said, and
I've read some articles that thenew, like the people that are
just coming out of school, likethere's not really a need for
that person to do that becauseAI can do it.

(52:16):
So then you're like, well, do Ihire that person?
Okay, well, they gotta have thisknowledge of AI.
Oh, I don't see that, but theydon't have the knowledge to be
here.
So there's gonna be a thresholdof a lot of hires that are
coming out of school that like,do you really want to hire that
person?
Like, no, you really need thatfive years, like when the
recruiters come get you ofwhatever you learned.

(52:38):
And how are those people gonnamake the jump?
Um, right, you know, I I I don'tknow.
I I I think it's real worldexperience.
Uh so and then everybody'sgetting fired.
So then you got a bunch ofpeople out there doing their own
thing.
Like, but that's where most ofthe small business ours are like
the world, like from a systemthinking standpoint, like all
these things have like you know,second line effects and third

(53:02):
line effects.
Like, I don't know what's gonnahappen, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 (53:06):
And yeah, I mean, one people will have different
reactions to me saying this.
We live in the United States, soobviously we need infrastructure
improvements, pressing andpushing.
Obviously, the technology peopleare some of our brightest, they
have been, they went therebecause that's where the largest

(53:26):
economic gain was.
And so if they get squeezed out,people are gonna go look for
where the other large, thoseintelligent people, where are
the other large economic gainsgonna be?
And in the United States, theseare these are all these
infrastructure projects that wedon't ever get around to because
we don't have the human capacityto do it.
So now that's not to say thatthe that generation that does

(53:47):
get pushed out, they're notgonna re rejob into that, but
some of them might, but theremight be, you know, over time it
resorts itself out into waysthat we it's hard for us to
fathom because we're just I'llbe 40 this year, right?
So when I grew up, it's like gobe an engineer, go learn how to
work on computers, right?
That was the whole mentality,and so that's where we all went.

(54:09):
I mean, if I look at all of mostof the people that I grew up
with, it's engineers, doctors,and lawyers, right?
Like those are the those werethe what places we went.
We're seeing AI actuallyincrease the need for doctors
because it's able to do and readresults faster.
So we right, the big argumentfive years ago was our uh
radiology is dead.
And then we saw the opposite ofthat.

(54:30):
We saw we need more radiologistsbecause the AIs are able to read
uh more uh more of the testfaster.
And so now people are usingradiology for tests that we
never thought about.
So it's increased that need.
Um obviously we talked about theproblems with the lawyers, and
then on the engineering side, ifyou're thinking like physical
engineering, we need so many ofthose people right now.

(54:53):
Maybe not the computerengineers.
That's that seems to be thedirection of where the jobs are
getting compressed, but uh Iit'll be a reshifting of like
how that um white collar, likethat upper class white-collar
careers get shifted.
I think you know, I don'tforesee AI even if it's as great
as it is, it's gonna take a longtime for a person to be

(55:14):
comfortable walking into a aroom with an AI that diagnoses
you, right?
Like it's gonna be a long timebefore we get to that.
Then the nurses are obviouslyunderstaffed, and I don't I I
don't care how good yourhumanoid robot is, I just don't
see humans outsourcing that touh right.
So these are there the jobs arethere, they're they're

(55:35):
underserved now.
It's gonna be just a rebalancingof there's only so many people,
right?
To be able to do these types ofyeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:42):
Wow, I think I think that's wow.
I think that's a great place tokind of end.
We'll have to have you back on.
I think I'll see what thecomments are from this uh
podcast.
Uh we went, I went off script,uh, you know.
Uh but uh I would I like yourpoint.
Like that makes a lot of sensethat a lot of the knowledge
worker people are gonna grabgravitate to the where the

(56:04):
biggest gap in the economic gainis, and they're gonna seep into
those roles.
Like I've seen that in oil andgas because oil and gas is so
typical.
Those engineers get laid off,and some of them come back next
cycle, but a lot of them don't.
They go into other things andthey add a lot of value uh in
these other things with thecross uh industry discipline.

(56:25):
And so I can I can absolutelysee like a distribution right
happening from all these peoplethat are getting laid off from
Facebook.
Like, where are they gonna go?
Like there's gonna be adistribution across a lot of
these companies, and then that'sgonna bring them up to the next
level, and it's kind of theworld is flat and kind of get it
gets you know it gets layeredlayered around.
I love that.
I love that.
Okay, so Cameron, for for youknow, I'm glad that you you teed

(56:48):
up kind of what you did and thekind of clients you work with at
the beginning of the call.
Um tell t tell anybody that'sstill listening um like uh how
to get in touch with you, how tolike, you know, where where you
kind of put some of thesethoughts, um, you know, any
anything you would like to shareand also anything you would like
to add uh to this conversationthat you feel like we we haven't
covered, but I'll turn it overto you.

SPEAKER_03 (57:11):
Yeah, it was a fun, no, fun conversation.
I think we yes, we drifted, butit's funny how these
conversations with me tend todrift.
I think this is uh it's my myproblem, my fault.
But you can find me atbidviewmarketing.com.
Uh, if you email us, that itgoes to me and our account
manager.
I do like to post on LinkedIn,although I am not somebody who

(57:32):
writes with AI, so I don't postas much as I probably should,
but I am actually do writing myposts when I do post them.
Uh, and then a couple weeks ago,I did start an AI business uh
podcast.
We call it the AI Business Lab.
You can find it on YouTube rightnow.
Uh, and it is not about the theit's not about AI, it's it's

(57:52):
it's about how a business ownershould think.
A lot of kind of what we talkedabout here is like how do you
operationally introduce AI to abusiness?
We do talk a little bit aboutthe nitty gritty details, but I
don't think that's wherebusiness owners care to know.
Like they're they want if if AIsolves revenue problems, they'll
do it.
If they they're not gonna do itbecause it sounds cool, right?

(58:15):
So um we try to stick to thosetopics.
Sometimes we drift, but uh he'suh he comes from the
aeronautical uh defense uharena, my partner in that.
So he has some pretty cool umhe's he's the one who got access
to Mytho.
So he has some pretty cool um hehas a completely different
viewpoint on a lot of thingsthan I do coming from the
business side and the marketingside.

(58:35):
So um yeah, those are the fewplaces you can find me.
Um and I I'm I'm available.
So thank you, Matt, for havingme on.

SPEAKER_01 (58:44):
Yeah, awesome.
Uh yeah, there's a lot more likedef like as I've moved more into
AI, a lot more defensecontractors and people reaching
out.
I mean, this is a powerful,powerful tool, everyone that's
listening.
Um, you know, if you want togrow your planet with the most
powerful, uh strongest, likeawesome tool uh in in well,

(59:08):
guys, I missed it.
I messed up.
I messed up.
Like you know what I'm trying tosay, but there's like I spill we
have at the end.
But uh if if you're looking forthat, like you know, you you
should really keep listening tothis podcast, go check out what
Cameron's doing.
Like, I think the world ischanging.
Um, I just recently um again uhtook over EWR digital, so I I

(59:29):
have full control of that.
We're actually uh spinning outsome of the companies that that
we have inside of that.
We're moving uh some thingsaround.
Um we're starting some stuff.
So if you have any interest inwhat we're doing or getting
involved, um we are also raisingsome money.
Uh I mean, AI is absolutelypowerful and it's going to be
doing a lot of really coolthings.
And uh, we have a lot oflong-term clients that want to

(59:51):
get involved.
And so, yeah, if you have anyinterest, uh reach out.
Um, you can find me on LinkedIn.
Uh, and uh until the next time,my name is Matt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.

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