July 19, 2026 • 45 mins
We get brutally honest about why traffic is a vanity metric and how SEO only earns budget when it ties to real business outcomes. We lay out the data and reporting foundation you need to walk into the C-suite with confidence, even when attribution is messy and timelines are long.
• separating vanity metrics from revenue-driving KPIs
• building the business case for SEO with CFO-ready numbers
• fixing data quality in Google Analytics and conversion tracking
• enforcing CRM hygiene so leads can become pipeline and revenue
• choosing KPIs for lead generation vs ecommerce models
• setting expectations with leading vs lagging indicators for SEO
• funding the messy middle and mapping the full buying funnel
• aligning sales and marketing to improve lead quality and content
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With over 5 million downloads, The Best SEO Podcast has been the go-to show for digital marketers, business owners, and entrepreneurs wanting real-world strategies to grow online.
Now, host Matthew Bertram — creator of the LLM Visibility Stack™, and Lead Strategist at EWR Digital — takes the conversation beyond traditional SEO into the AI era of discoverability.
Each week, Matthew dives into the tactics, frameworks, and insights that matter most in a world where search engines, large language models, and answer engines are reshaping how people find, trust, and choose businesses. From SEO and AI-driven marketing to executive-level growth strategy, you’ll hear expert interviews, deep-dive discussions, and actionable strategies to help you stay ahead of the curve.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Audi, welcome back to another fun-filled episode of
The Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I'm your host, Matthew Bertram.
Uh I uh haven't been doingpodcasts in a while, guys.
I apologize.
There's been a lot of thingshappening.
I'm actually going to uh we weretalking about Maggie and I.
Maggie Swift's here with me fromUnframed Digital out of Denver.
(00:37):
Maggie, hello.
SPEAKER_03 (00:38):
Hi.
Hi, Matt.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Yeah, but uh yeah, so I've been in the process of
acquiring a few brands.
I've been selling uh differentkinds of assets.
Uh and so yeah, I have a meetinglater today.
So there's been a lot of stuffgoing on.
There's a lot of stuff moving inthe AI world.
I got some really great guestslined up.
We are still thinking aboutchanging the name of the
(01:04):
podcast, but it's very hard whenyou look at the entity and the
last 17 years of this podcast.
So it's hard to change the name.
SPEAKER_03 (01:12):
Um my gosh, congratulations on 17 years.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
Thank you.
It was also an acquired asset uhthat I took over about eight
years ago.
SPEAKER_03 (01:22):
It still is great.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
But uh yeah, so uh I hope everybody is enjoying the
direction we're taking theconversation.
Um it's fast and furious withAI, but I thought I would slow
it down and let's really talkabout what is SEO and like how
it ties to business outcomes.
(01:45):
Because I think that one of thethings Maggie, you and I were
talking about too is you know,when when you need to be able to
talk to uh the the C-suite andyou're talking to the CFO and
they're everybody's looking atnumbers, how to justify uh SEO.
Paid ads, really easy.
You got attribution, and that'swhy people dump money into it,
(02:08):
but it's not always the bestsolution.
And now kind of optimizeeverywhere.
Um what's going on?
SEO is like fanned out, like nowit's involved in social media,
just how AI is sucking in um allthe data, right?
And evaluating yourself, yourbrand, uh, your company.
(02:30):
Uh, SEO is even more importantand uh how your company is
getting represented online.
And I think for a lot of digitalmarketers as well as companies,
they don't know how to evaluateis SEO working if you're a
company, if you're someoneoffering those services, how to
have those conversations, whatare those measured results?
(02:52):
Because it's not traffic, right?
It's not traffic anymore.
It never was, but scream it fromthe rooftops.
Oh man, that's that's for forall you listening, you know,
like traffic has been the goldstandard of what everything has
been measured in.
And it doesn't really mean muchif it doesn't convert to sales,
(03:14):
it's just a vanity metric.
So, Maggie, I would love to hearkind of your framework for you
to set the table of kind of howyou view uh like the business
case for SEO, I guess.
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
Yeah, um it's something that actually we're
we're dealing with right nowwith a client.
Um and I think that a lot ofbusiness leaders are really into
the vanity metrics because theythink that that's what's
important.
Vanity metrics meaning traffic,um, even engagement rate, right?
Um but what we're seeing is thatmarketers really need to be uh
(03:49):
strong enough almost to have adeeper conversation with
leadership to really be able totie the business outcomes to any
marketing channel, um includingSEO.
Um budgets are getting tighterand tighter, especially as we
see private equity firms uh comein with injections of
investment.
(04:09):
Their expectations are high.
Marketing teams' expectationsare also so high, they're the
first to go.
They're I call it the leastrespected position in a
business, which is so ironiccompared to knowing that
marketing is some of the mostimportant pieces of a business.
(04:30):
And so when you're a marketer,you feel this extra pressure to
also prove that the strategiesthat you've implemented and
added to your growth strategyare actually working.
So when it comes to analytics, Ithink what we really need to do
as marketers is to dive so muchdeeper than we have, really
prioritize the education aroundanalytics and metrics, and
(04:54):
really prioritize telling thestory to leadership.
Um, because and really coachingthem, right, on what's important
and what's not.
Um, so that's sort of my likesuper high level of why this is
important.
Um and I think everybody feelsthat, probably that's listening.
Um with SEO, I think one thingthat's super surprising,
(05:16):
especially on the brand side andand people that are not actual
SEOs, is that SEO is like 70%data analysis.
So oftentimes you are you arecomparing paid ads, ROAS, to SEO
returns, and you're sort ofthinking, how do I tell this
story of success?
(05:37):
I mean, there's so manydifferent ways.
That's what makes it challengingat the same time, is there are
so many ways and so many layersthat you have to peel back to
uncover those stories of successsometimes.
Um but you know, the data isthere, and so if you have the
right partner behind you and ifyou are prioritizing the data
(05:58):
storytelling of it, then um youcan find ways to make the board
of directors happy, make theownership happy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
So, Maggie, it's it's funny, like the the way
that a lot of the conversationsused to go when I'm talking to
business owners specifically,like not when you're getting
into enterprises, but likespecifically with business
owners, the conversations likeit seems like it's working.
They're like, they're like, Ican feel it, I can feel it.
(06:29):
So, like you look at all themetrics and you're like, this
should be driving leads, right?
Like this should be drivingleads.
And then the business owner'slike, yeah, it's working or it's
not working.
And then that's where theconversations get into like,
okay, well, let's look at theCRM.
And it's funny because even ifyou look at the data, you're
like, okay, well, you got thismany more leads than you were
(06:52):
getting before.
And then like you've closed thismany more deals.
And sometimes if you don't havethose revenue numbers and that
CRM's not working, the client'slike, Oh, I I don't, I don't
really, I it doesn't really likefeel like it's working.
And it's like, but revenue's upby 40%.
Like, what do you think?
What else did you do?
(07:13):
What else could it be?
Yeah, like it could like it.
No, it's not the SEO.
That's just you know, the thevisibility.
And so, like, there's alwaysbeen like these connections, but
attribution becomes really hard.
Like, when you dig down intolike KPIs, like what are what
are you wanting to look for?
What are you looking for from aKPI standpoint when you're
(07:35):
having these conversations todayof like, here's the things we
need to measure that transitioninto this, and then where are
you pulling that data from?
SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
Yeah, so I mean, it kind of changes between lead
generation business models ande-commerce business models,
right?
Um, and really, I think thebiggest disconnect that's going
on besides data quality, 100% ofour clients come in and do not
have the proper conversions, theproper tracking set up in Google
(08:07):
Analytics.
They do not have uh good dataquality, 100% of our clients.
So if you are out there andfeeling really unconfident in
your marketing data, you areabsolutely not alone.
But besides that, um, I thinkreally what we have to call out
is that leadership is not givingvisibility to marketing teams
with those metrics that tell thestory of success and help
(08:30):
attribute, or at least for alead generation model, um, help
forecast the attribution fromanything.
So what we want to see is wewant to see metrics, and this
trickles down, right, from theleadership giving that
visibility to the marketingteam.
We want to see things likeaverage order value, customer
acquisition cost, customerlifetime value.
(08:52):
We get asked all the time, well,what's the return on investment?
And it's like, well, how do weknow without customer lifetime
value?
And 99% of the time, actually,probably more like 100% of the
time, even the business ownercannot tell us that answer.
Um, and they have to go throughwho jump through hoops in order
(09:13):
to get that.
So that is one of the biggestgaps in attribution, starting
from the top down.
Um, you can measure all the datayou want, but if you don't know
those business metrics, you'renot gonna be able to say to
answer the question of what isthe ROI and what is this doing
for my bottom line.
The second is like the datahealth, right?
(09:34):
So you've got data health thatneeds to be addressed in Google
Analytics from a professional,not from your marketing manager
that can get in and set up yourlead conversion.
It needs to be addressedthroughout the entire Google
Analytics environment.
But then you also have to lookat your CRM and what you're how
you're managing that.
(09:54):
If your sales team in a leadgeneration business model is not
actively uh managing andmaintaining the hygiene of that
CRM, well, we can't tell howmany people we've put in the
pipeline from specific marketingchannels.
So it's about building thatfoundation first, getting buy-in
from the entire team to maintainthe hygiene of all of those
(10:15):
technologies and data uhconnections.
And then once that happens, thenwe want to look at things like
the increases and improvementsof customer lifetime value, the
increases and improvements ofaverage order value.
If you're lead generation,obviously you've got the leads
coming in the at the bottom ofthe funnel that you want to come
in, contact us, talk to sales,uh, speak to a dealer, whatever
(10:40):
it is, right?
Um, and so those are usuallyalready set up and they're
pretty obvious.
And so with average order value,with customer lifetime value, we
can with like your sales closerate, we can actually go ahead
and forecast how much revenue weare driving from the leads that
we're driving in through SEO.
(11:00):
So, again, even with leadgeneration business models,
there's not this likenecessarily a gray area.
Maybe you could call it a grayarea, but it's more of like we
just need to put the piecestogether.
And unfortunately, you have tobe satisfied with a forecast and
not actual attribution unlessyou are maintaining it and your
sort of technology environmentdoes, you know, close clients,
(11:23):
puts in the right the actualnumber of the deal, etc.
Um, when we're thinking aboute-commerce, we want to see those
growths and average order value.
E-commerce is so much easier totrack ROI, of course.
Even with SEO, we can see thecheckouts, we can see the
completion rates, we can see uhthe revenue, and even Google
(11:45):
Analytics has the ability tocapture average order value and
track that.
Um, we can't see customerlifetime value, but at the very
minimum, we can see the averageorder value, how that's
improving, because that goesafter your customer lifetime
value, right?
The more um, the more, thehigher the order value is, your
(12:06):
customer lifetime value is goingto grow.
So we definitely want to seethat when it comes to like
measuring the business's bottomline.
On the other uh area of thefunnel that we want to use too
is going to be your middle ofthe funnel.
How are we building pipeline?
How are those people behaving inthat pipeline?
Are we driving the warm leads tothe door through the door to the
(12:28):
sales team?
And then how are they moving toAllstate to end up as a client?
On the e-commerce side, ofcourse, it's going to be a lot
of activity.
It's going to be favorite lists,it's going to be uh adding to
cart, those types of actions.
And so if we are, if we have thedata set up correctly and we
see, okay, the completion rateof from add to cart to checkout
(12:54):
is 30%.
What do we need to do to makethat 50 to 70%?
Um, so again, it's clarityaround all stages of the buying
funnel that actually go towardsthe bottom line, but then using
those top most importantbusiness metrics that you get
from leadership, CEO, CFO, theowner of the company, um, that
(13:18):
you can also track to actuallyattribute those business wins
and how they impact the bottomline.
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
Absolutely.
So a couple thoughts that I havearound that is um certainly when
someone is pitching SEO.
Now with private equity, it's alittle bit different, but uh
typically how it's been is ifyou're pitching on the
enterprise side, you're may ormay not be talking to the
C-suite, you may be talking tolike marketing or something like
(13:44):
that.
I don't know if they have allthe numbers that they need to be
able to give you that stuff.
One, so there's potentialinternal barriers, may not they
may not have a lot of people.
That's the problem, right?
And then when you have the smallbusiness owners, they may not
even know their numbers, right?
So now you're trying to push SEOfrom the way up, trying to get
(14:05):
these numbers that it actuallyneeds to be coming from the way
down.
And then in the funnel process,if e-commerce, I love e-commerce
because everything's online.
Excuse me, everything is online.
You can see everything that'shappening.
And I think that that's thedirection that most uh most of
(14:26):
the internet is going.
Like where as much of theprocess online as possible,
e-commerce is a great model, butif you're talking about a lead
gen business, um well, you'reproducing leads that need to be
scored.
Okay.
You need to know if these aregood leads or bad leads, because
like even when you're runningpaid ads, like there's a lot of
(14:49):
spam.
There's a lot of people thatfill out forms that shouldn't.
And absolutely you get you getyou get uh you're like, oh, we
we just produced like 125 leadsuh for you, and they're like,
and three of them converted.
And you're like there there's adiscrepancy too of what the
client thinks a success is, andwhat you think a success is, and
(15:12):
what you're talking about aboutdata hygiene is incredibly
important to understand how howto understand the data that
you're looking at is and whatthose metrics are.
So I almost think SEO isdownstream, right?
SEO is downstream of businessoperations, and it and the way
(15:37):
that I think private equity islooking at it is a little bit
more accurate because I'm gonnaI'm gonna put money in this
thing, and this is what I wantto get out of it.
And you can get comps and youcan kind of see, but unless you
have historical business data,and unless you have the numbers
that you're managing to, likemarketers have a hard time or
(16:00):
SEOs have a hard time because wegot to come in, we got to put
together all the analytics, likenot to mention, you know,
universal analytics is almost onevery site we bring on now.
It's still on there.
There's two or three uh, youknow, uh tags, tags still on
there.
Like you got to get that allcleaned up.
You got to figure out how toimport the data, you got to
(16:21):
learn the client's business, yougot to be able to put it
together and explain it to theclient.
And then also whatever you'redoing, it's gonna take like a
quarter probably to impact,right?
Like it's gonna take 45 days, 60days to impact.
So then you're lookingbackwards, right?
You're not looking um like realtime of what's happening because
(16:43):
it takes a while.
There's all these differentfactors that you've got to
really understand the thebusiness acumen to be able to
have a conversation with theclient to have them like wanna
wanna develop that long-termrelationship.
And then, right, what I'mseeing, I I just went to uh like
an agency conference, and it waslike people are expecting
(17:05):
results now in 90 days.
Oh, it's crazy.
It's just like there's a lot ofthings stacked against the world
right now, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
Yeah, and to your point, I think you know what
private equity is doingdifferently than a lot of a lot
of other business owners is thatthey're they they expect a
return, they're keeping track ofthat.
Where a lot of owners or evenmarketing people, when they come
to us uh for a proposal to makea change, they hadn't even known
(17:37):
their KPIs and goals that theywere trying to reach.
So that's what private equity isdefinitely doing right in their
expectations, and and but whatthey're doing wrong is private
equity is just as impatient asme, and they want to see results
so quickly, they are really it'shard to communicate the leading
KPIs and the lagging KPIs with along-term strategy like SEO.
(18:02):
And so when we think about SEOand talking about it,
expectations are so important,um, not only for your SEO agency
to accurately communicate, butfor you to communicate with your
boards, with everybody else thatyou're reporting to, that in the
first six months, these aregoing to be leading KPIs,
they're going to be successindicators.
(18:24):
They are not going to, they'renot meant to drive results.
This is a long-term strategyplay.
Um, and so the KPIs that youreally want to look at in the
first six months are are goingto be different than measuring
success after that first year.
SPEAKER_04 (18:38):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (18:38):
Um, and certainly year three is like the year of
the magic.
That's like we're good.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Yeah, well, it's funny.
We've been we've done a coupleof remediation issues.
There's been a lot of like crazystuff that people are like
trying to get fixed, and they'llcome to us and we'll we'll fix
them.
And we've been doing likethree-month like remediation
deals where we can solve theproblem, but they want the
problem solved and they want thebusiness to have grown, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
Yeah, that's literally what we're dealing
with right now.
SPEAKER_01 (19:13):
And and so it's like, no, we're gonna remediate
the issue and then we're gonnafocus on the growth.
And you know, it's it's funnybecause um we went into a couple
of six-month agreements, andthen we we cycled down to three
month agreements, and we've donea couple three-month agreements,
and I'm kind of like, okay, ifwe're gonna date, right?
(19:34):
If we're gonna date, then like Iget it.
You don't want to sign a yearagreement out of the gate.
I get it.
Like you've been burned before,like, I get it.
Everybody has their baggage.
But if we do an awesome job, weabsolutely crush the numbers,
then like like you know how wework, we know how you work, like
(19:55):
we've got through like the getto know each other, how to
report, like what are isimportant to you.
Now we understand your business.
Now let's get into a long-termagreement.
And um, and it's it's just beenfunny.
Uh, my sales team has been doingthese like six-month agreements
that rolled into three months.
And I'm like, how about sixmonths that roll into year
(20:15):
agreements?
And then, and then what happensis we're uh, you know, we're
we're we're coming to the end ofthe agreement, and then we're
actually having to resell andresign the whole agreement.
And and it's it's not it's notbeen ideal for operations
because we've skipped, like it'staken a month to close, like or
(20:36):
a couple weeks to close.
So then the agreement ends, andthen that's a couple months to
close.
And we're trying to look atlong-term revenue, right?
We're trying to project out,like, you know, not just a
13-week, but like we're tryingto project revenue.
We had five accounts that kindof came up due at the same time
that were we were like renewing.
(20:57):
Um, and it took like alldifferent levels to like renew.
So we had this really nice dipin get uh revenue gap uh that I
had to like talk to the wholesales team and say, like, guys,
like uh we got to look at whenwe have contracts, when they're
gonna fall off, and when they'regonna renew.
And we need to like think aboutthis a little bit more.
(21:18):
That wasn't something thatwasn't a KPI for us, Maggie,
that we were yeah, we werelooking for.
And it's a it's a real thing.
Like, you gotta know yournumbers, you got to have
dashboards, and you got to lookat like what are the things that
are important for you.
But the better someoneunderstands their business, like
the more I think they'll loveSEO because the uplift on it and
(21:42):
the impact, when you can reallytrack that data, is better than
anything else you're gonna get.
And it's like you're owning realestate versus uh versus like
paid ads.
And we certainly use a lot ofpaid ads, but you know, SEO
should be that core driver, inmy opinion.
SPEAKER_03 (22:00):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
I mean, I can confidently say for probably 90%
of businesses, maybe even more,that SEO will become your
highest source of leads, yourhighest source of visitors, your
highest source of sales if donecorrectly and if invested in for
the long term.
There's no doubt about it.
And it compounds.
Um, and so yeah, uh it'sincredible how many people don't
(22:26):
believe in it.
But frankly, and Matt, youprobably get this a lot from
your prospects that there's somany bad players in SEO land.
Like they've been sold thesesuper small packages, or they've
been sold something that theydon't quite understand.
Maybe they've purchased oneaspect of SEO, thinking that the
team does all aspects of SEO.
(22:47):
And so there's a lot of PTSD inthe market in SEO land.
And I get it, you know, I getit.
It's like hiring generalcontractors or electricians,
right?
There's a lot of bad people outthere, and then there's a lot of
like really good options that doreally great work.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
Well, you know, it's funny you say contractors.
Um, a lot of my friends recentlyhave been building houses.
Um, and I never want to build ahouse.
I don't know if you've everbuilt a house, but if anybody is
listening that's built in house,um, it's a second job really to
manage your right now.
Yeah.
(23:23):
Your contractor team, and andyou know, knowing somebody that
is really good at what they domakes the process really smooth.
But there's a lot of decisions,there's a lot that's on you to
build a house.
And you know, you got to have areally good general contractor,
you gotta like trust they knowwhat they're doing.
Like the digital space is thesame way, you're building
(23:45):
digital infrastructure.
And now with the like agenticworkflows and automation and
everything else, it's a wholenother level of what you're
trying to do.
And you know, frankly, I thinkthat you know, podcasts like
this, like we're trying toprovide more education on how
you should approach these thingsso you know what you're getting
(24:06):
yourself into.
Because I think what we'vefound, Maggie, is like, okay,
like we we've we've we've beendoing this a while, a long time.
I think EWR is 25 years old.
Like in the last nine years,like even in the last nine
years, we have changed as Iguess the customer changes on
(24:28):
what they need to see in theproposals, right?
So, like if we list out here areall the proposals, right?
Here's all the stuff you want,right?
Um, they don't know what thatis, but guess what?
Like contract time come, they'relike, Well, did I get all this
stuff?
And I was like, Yeah, you youdid get all that stuff.
That's a productize service,right?
(24:50):
Or they think they're in aretainer, right?
And they're like, Well, can youdo this?
Can you do that?
And then you're like, oh, well,here's an invoice for all that
stuff.
They're like, Whoa, I'm payingyou money.
Like, I thought you were gonnado all that stuff.
Well, like there, there's a lotof like um getting on the same
page with the clientcontractually, um, from a scope
of work standpoint, like from anengagement standpoint, like how
(25:13):
you're like you're what I thinkthe big downfall is with SEO is
people are hiring SEOs to runtheir business for them and grow
their business.
Like they're not they're notpaying for traffic, they're not
paying for so there's there's adifferent level of financial
education that I feel like SEOsneed to have, and also to be
(25:37):
able to have those conversationswith the C-suite or the owners
or whatever, but also you needto be working with clients that
are on your level.
Does that make sense?
Because there's gonna befriction if someone's speaking
one language here and someone'snot speaking the same language
here, or you're kind of like twoboats missing each other in the
night.
(25:57):
So it's really about finding theright partner that can
communicate and understands whatyou need are.
And I think that that happensover the long term.
Like I think that you find apartner, you get to know what
they're looking for, youunderstand how their business
runs, and you figure out how youcan add value and help them.
And then those services likeexpand.
(26:18):
But everybody should be focusedon kind of going back to what
you were saying in thebeginning.
They need to be focused on thesame set of KPIs.
Like everybody needs to knowwhat good looks like and what
we're working towards to besuccessful.
SPEAKER_02 (26:31):
100%.
And like even thinking about thelack of transparency, yeah,
there's most marketers aren'tgiven those business metrics
from ownership.
And I find that I'm I knowpeople probably a lot of owners
that disagree with this, but Ifind that to be completely
unacceptable.
You don't hire an accountant andnot give them numbers, you don't
(26:53):
hire a sales director and notgive them numbers.
Why on earth would you hiresomebody to help you grow if
you're not gonna give themnumbers?
It's crazy.
Crazy town.
SPEAKER_01 (27:03):
Well, yeah, you know, there are some areas,
right?
If you're a doctor or a lawyeror something like that, like
there's there's patientconfidentiality, but you can
strip out the names.
But like, I think like somepeople, like you gotta, if
you're gonna hire a marketer,you've got to be honest.
Like, like, depending on themarketer you're hire, like if
you're hiring a contractor andyou're like, I'm gonna direct
(27:24):
this person to do it, but ifyou're hiring somebody to come
in and fix it, the solution, yougotta let them see the data.
Like a lot of times we have torecreate the data for the client
to say, here's the baseline thatwe're creating, because either
you don't have one or or or youwon't share it.
Like, and I think it fallssomewhere in the middle, but I
(27:45):
think that there's like thislevel of trust to like giving
people the keys to the kingdomand you know, all that.
But I I think depending again,what type of client, what type
of industry, there's there'scertain levels of permissioning
that need to be provided andcertain amount of access to also
understand like that engagement.
(28:05):
But I think that that's been thebiggest offset that I've seen
over the years is what you needto be successful and what the
client's willing to give you, orwhat the client has access to to
put all that together in like acompressed time frame, which
you're stepping into a businessthat you're trying to fix, like
(28:26):
that they've been working on forhowever many years it is.
Like you want me in six monthsto come in and understand your
business and fix your businesswhen I don't even understand how
it operates.
Like, and so a lot of what I'vehad to do, Maggie, is I I
typically go in as a fractional,depending on the client, and
(28:47):
like understand like what isgoing on in the business.
And then I help kind of get theparts wired in to our team,
right?
And I'll build the pod and I'llfigure out what they need and
we'll have discussions aboutlike, okay, like, do you want to
hire this?
Do you want this managedinternally or do you want this
external?
(29:08):
Or like what do you need to do?
But it it it quickly bridgesthat gap, which I had not as
much comfort with early on ofbecoming a business consultant,
right?
Because like marketing isintegral into like how
everything is flowing, howeverything customer retention,
right?
Right, you got some drip emails.
(29:30):
Uh, maybe you got a customerlist, you got a newsletter, you
were talking about the messymiddle.
Like, there's so many differentfactors that fit in that
typically nothing's alreadyprepared, and they're like, here
are all the tools, here's allthe KPIs, here's everything you
need.
Get started.
I would love that actually, butum, it doesn't always happen
(29:50):
that way.
SPEAKER_03 (29:51):
It doesn't, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_02 (29:53):
And um, yeah, it can be, it's I mean, to everybody's
defense, it's gotten soconvoluted.
Everybody's stressed, like thetariffs are crazy, the cost of
running a business is crazy, thecost of employing people, and
the especially obviously in theUnited States is insane.
Um, and so I, you know, I getthat everybody's, you know, as
(30:16):
an entrepreneur and you're anentrepreneur, we both showed up
and we're like, oh my God,everything's been going so fast.
So I totally get it, but it'ssomething that definitely needs
to prior be prioritized if theywant to take their growth
seriously, if they want to feelconfident in their decisions and
if they want to feel confidentin their forecasting.
SPEAKER_01 (30:35):
Absolutely.
So in this discussion, we'vewe've covered a number of
different things from likemetrics to like the mess middle,
from e-commerce to like lead genbusinesses.
Um, you know, I think that, andwe and we've also talked about
kind of the expectation withwhen you're either working with
(30:57):
an agency or you're uh acontractor or your uh agency
talking to a client of you gotto get on that same page with
that same vocabulary.
Um, what else do you think,Maggie, would be helpful to this
discussion for people that arelistening to this to know?
(31:22):
I hope you can edit this longpause out.
Oh, I think it's great.
I think we should keep it in.
SPEAKER_03 (31:31):
I mean, I feel like there's like hundreds of things,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Um so like what what has been the biggest secret to
success then?
What has been the biggest secretto success when dealing with
this?
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
Well, I just I just found an answer to your initial
question.
Oh wow, let me let me let me getinto that.
And it goes into the messymiddle, right?
Because you get a you get aprospect or you get a client in
the door, they've got their oneconversion set up, purchase or
contact us.
The leadership only wants toinvest in what's going to drive
(32:08):
ROI.
So not only is your middle amess, but it's totally
underinvested in.
And even you see brand awarenesstotally underinvested in.
And so I think part of theconversation, in addition to all
of the things we talked about,is really breaking out the plan
by the funnel stages of thefunnel, really making sure that
(32:30):
you're allocating enough foreach stage of the funnel.
Because ultimately, when youcome to us and you've had really
unsuccessful paid ads, most ofthe time we're finding either
the investment isn't right, theperson running it wasn't
competent, or you're not drivingpeople effectively through all
stages of the buying funnel.
(32:51):
You're just trying to go afterthe leads generated, right?
So I think like as we come into2027 planning, there's some
refinement that you can do.
Asking, let's break it down towhat we've discussed so far,
asking leadership for thosebusiness metrics that matter the
most to the bottom line, uh,prioritizing hiring an expert,
hire a freaking expert to gointo your Google Analytics and
(33:14):
your HubSpot CRM, whatever itis, making sure that your data
infrastructure is sound, makingsure that people are keeping it
hygienic.
And then next, making sure thatin your plan, you're mapping out
all stages of the buying funnel.
So you get buy-in from theleadership, you set their
expectations right out the gate,but then you're not coming in
(33:36):
after quarter one, realizingthat you just totally
underinvested it in the middleof the funnel.
So, and also the middle of thefunnel is typically where we
find the most conversionopportunities when it comes to a
website that haven't been actedon, right?
You've got so many assets thatare already there that aren't
(33:56):
set up as conversions or aren'tgated or aren't even considered
for middle of the funnel users.
So definitely don't forget aboutthat middle of the funnel, don't
forget about the top of thefunnel as you go after that
lagging KPI, the beautiful sale,the new client, etc.
SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
So I love what you said there.
And and what registered for methe most was we started this
conversation about the KPIs forSEO, and your answer included
analytics, uh business strategy,content creation, um, paid ads.
(34:37):
I might have said that before,but I I heard like seven or
eight different things.
Like that that when we talkabout SEO, I don't think people
know what it is, at least myexperience, which I it sounds
like very similar to yours, isit's SEO is make my business
work better, fix it all.
(34:58):
Okay, like that's like get meleads with the bow on it and
grow my business and do it allwith as little amount of my
effort as possible.
And I think that that's thewrong frame.
I really do.
I think that's the wrong frame.
And if you're gonna be bringingin a digital marketer or an SEO
(35:22):
to help fix that piece of thebusiness, they're all
interconnected.
Like you got to like systemthink about how all these things
impact those other things, andyou need to be able to elevate
whoever you bring in to beingpart of your executive team.
Like they need to have a voicein the room, or whoever is in
(35:43):
that room, that person needs tomake that person look like a
champion and needs to be able toprovide them all the information
they have to be able to go tothe CFO and say, this was
helpful.
It was funny.
We were working with thispublicly traded company, and um,
we did a three-month engagement.
We fixed everything they needed.
They had a kind of a contentflow issue that they needed to
(36:06):
get stuff published.
And, you know, going back tolike get the second engagement,
like we're still in the processof that.
And it's been two months becauseyou know, things take a while,
they're still talking to us.
In the two months that we've notdone anything, but we set the
trajectory.
I I still are tracking theresults.
They're first for they're firstfor everything.
(36:28):
Okay, they're absolutely first,but like it took like it didn't
happen, it didn't happenimmediately.
Does that make sense?
Like, oh, absolutely not, yeah.
And then there was internaldependencies that they needed to
get figured out, and like theywere stacked up, you know, and
they're like, hey, like we gotto get this figured out before
(36:49):
we like engage.
And so there's been a lot ofthese conversations, but it's
almost like you know, you're yougotta you gotta look in the
rears of what we did lastquarter is impacting this
quarter because you know, fromthe conversation we have, they
haven't done anything.
It's just all this stuff thatstarted to catch and started to
(37:10):
pop, and then that drives likeother big business cases.
But yeah, I mean, you're you'renot just dealing with SEO.
Like if you're dealing with theenterprise company, you can't
touch their website, right?
Or you're dealing with IT, oryou're dealing with their
internal content approval teamor investor team.
SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
Yeah, it's the biggest struggle.
SPEAKER_02 (37:31):
Um, and and the team, the IT team and the
website team, I mean, it is theyare not engineers, right?
So you've got these people thatare putting not only not
prioritizing the SEOimplementation, but they're also
taking double the time toimplement because they're trying
(37:53):
to figure out what we're talkingabout.
So that's definitely a hugestruggle that a lot of our
clients that where they don'twant us to touch the website.
That's like one of the biggestthings for sure.
For sure.
Um yeah, I think there'ssomething else I wanted to say,
but well, if you think of it,definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (38:16):
Um, I would love to hear from from you.
Um, what are the most common uhlike patches, like dependencies
that you're running up againstwith when when you're when
you're trying to get to thislike numbers driven uh SEO
(38:36):
economy that you're you'retrying to build that that
culture with the client of likehere are the things we need to
look at, here's the tracking,here's how you talk to your
people and saying, you know,these are the things we need to
be focused on because it's it'sreally the business use case of
SEO, not the vanity metric usecase.
Like, where are you getting,where is your team getting
(38:56):
stuck, and what have you done toovercome those things?
SPEAKER_02 (39:00):
I mean, I think just like naturally, just the client
not having the right data, thesales team not utilizing the
CRM, um, those are definitelythe biggest roadblocks to
actually getting the data thatthey want.
Um and just the ROI stuff, likewe talked about before.
SPEAKER_03 (39:22):
Like that just is that the question you were
thinking that you were asking?
SPEAKER_01 (39:25):
Well, I like where you're going with uh bringing in
the sales team.
How do you think a sales teamviews SEO?
And what is, you know, your viewof like the marketing qualified
lead and the sales qualifiedlead conversation?
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
We make sales teams very happy, Matt.
I feel like you can agree.
Um I mean, ultimately, what wefind to be the biggest barrier
in the leads that we generate,producing and tracking,
producing that ROI and thetracking and all that is the
sales team basically not havingtheir shit together, right?
(40:03):
You've got salespeople that arenot are very anti-CRM.
Fire them immediately.
They should not be on your teamin this day and age.
I'm sorry, but every salespersonyou hire should be actively
involved and excited aboututilizing technology in a CRM.
Um, they might not be doing anytype of like CRM cleanup, they
(40:25):
might not be effectively movingthe lead from one stage of the
deal to the next.
So that's more on the managementside, I think, is making sure
not only is that buy-in there,not only is um are all of our
hires technology focused, butthey're also managing the
hygiene as well, and that in theway that they need in order to
(40:49):
get the reporting that theyneed.
Um, the other aspect to this isthere's that natural silo, that
natural separation between salesand marketing, which is totally,
totally outdated in this day andage.
So sales and marketing need totalk.
The marketing team can provideinsights to the sales team, the
(41:11):
sales team can tell themarketing team what are the most
common objections, where whereare you getting questions from,
what are the most commonquestions that are being
answered, because then thismarketing team can apply those
insights to their content andvice versa, and right content
for the sales team.
So we need to have marketing andsales also connected and working
(41:32):
together to really bring aboutthis like huge impact.
So I think sales can be really,really happy.
I think sales directors don'tknow most many of them, most of
them that I talk to, VPs ofsales, sales directors, most of
them don't know um much aboutmarketing, which I think um they
(41:54):
probably should get to know itslightly when it comes to
inbound leads, managing those,how to, how to sort of like ask
for that, how to ask for theoptimization of that.
Um, but they certainly need tobe meeting with the marketing
team regularly because there'sso much impact that the two
departments can have when theycome together.
SPEAKER_01 (42:15):
I I like that yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:18):
I'm a New Yorker, Matt.
I'm a New Yorker.
But you know what, Matt, too, isI don't think people realize how
much data um can be utilizedfrom marketing and from SEO
across many departments, right?
Like for product brands, you'vegot data on what people are
(42:40):
searching for the most whenyou've got specific products or
aesthetics, you've got trendingtopics, you've got your top
pages.
Um, there's so much data acrossthe entire company that can be
utilized from the SEO data thatwe get.
And so that's also important tokind of note like where are
(43:00):
things dropping off?
What direction should we go infor product development?
What should our messaging be?
Um, what should our focus be?
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
I think that SEOs have more data.
Uh, and uh the more time I'mlike cross-functional teams, uh,
usually the our our team is theone providing all the analytics
to the radio ads or the TV ads,like they the the marketing
hasn't been data driven tilldigital marketing, and then
really like SEO, you have to diginto it, like you said earlier.
(43:31):
Like, like it's mostly dataanalysis, right?
And it's math and algorithms.
Um, I gotta get out of here,Maggie.
I got a hard stop.
Um, no, Matt, no, I gotta go.
I gotta go.
And so, but I think that we'vehad a great discussion.
I want to give you theopportunity uh to share uh with
(43:52):
everyone listening if they wantto follow you, they want to find
out more, they want to hire you.
How do they best do that, MaggieSwift?
SPEAKER_03 (44:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (44:00):
Yeah, so uh follow me on LinkedIn for sure.
We put a lot of great videosout, or so I heard, we put a lot
of fun videos out when it comesto SEO.
We are speaking to people whowant to learn more about SEO,
uh, not necessarily speaking toall of the other SEOs out there.
So we're really wanting to bringcontent that's digestible, that
(44:22):
you understand, that yourownership understands.
Um, it'd be great if youfollowed me and kept in touch.
Um, reach out to me anytime.
You can hit me up on Maggie atunframedigital.com.
My company name is UnframedDigital.
We are a performance-drivensearch marketing agency um that
specializes in building demandthrough Google and through AI
(44:44):
and capturing demand throughuser experience and conversion
strategies.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
Well, if y'all want that fire, all right, and and to
get your data hygiene cleanedup, it's something that's
important.
Reach out to Maggie Swift uh atUnframe.
So we'll put all your links inthe show notes, Maggie.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Um, if you want to grow yourbusiness with the largest, most
powerful planet on the internet,you should keep listening to
(45:13):
this podcast.
So uh until the next time, myname is Matt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Audi, welcome back to another fun-filled episode of
The Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I'm your host, Matthew Bertram.
Uh I uh haven't been doingpodcasts in a while, guys.
I apologize.
There's been a lot of thingshappening.
I'm actually going to uh we weretalking about Maggie and I.
Maggie Swift's here with me fromUnframed Digital out of Denver.
(00:37):
Maggie, hello.
SPEAKER_03 (00:38):
Hi.
Hi, Matt.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Yeah, but uh yeah, so I've been in the process of
acquiring a few brands.
I've been selling uh differentkinds of assets.
Uh and so yeah, I have a meetinglater today.
So there's been a lot of stuffgoing on.
There's a lot of stuff moving inthe AI world.
I got some really great guestslined up.
We are still thinking aboutchanging the name of the
(01:04):
podcast, but it's very hard whenyou look at the entity and the
last 17 years of this podcast.
So it's hard to change the name.
SPEAKER_03 (01:12):
Um my gosh, congratulations on 17 years.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
Thank you.
It was also an acquired asset uhthat I took over about eight
years ago.
SPEAKER_03 (01:22):
It still is great.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
But uh yeah, so uh I hope everybody is enjoying the
direction we're taking theconversation.
Um it's fast and furious withAI, but I thought I would slow
it down and let's really talkabout what is SEO and like how
it ties to business outcomes.
(01:45):
Because I think that one of thethings Maggie, you and I were
talking about too is you know,when when you need to be able to
talk to uh the the C-suite andyou're talking to the CFO and
they're everybody's looking atnumbers, how to justify uh SEO.
Paid ads, really easy.
You got attribution, and that'swhy people dump money into it,
(02:08):
but it's not always the bestsolution.
And now kind of optimizeeverywhere.
Um what's going on?
SEO is like fanned out, like nowit's involved in social media,
just how AI is sucking in um allthe data, right?
And evaluating yourself, yourbrand, uh, your company.
(02:30):
Uh, SEO is even more importantand uh how your company is
getting represented online.
And I think for a lot of digitalmarketers as well as companies,
they don't know how to evaluateis SEO working if you're a
company, if you're someoneoffering those services, how to
have those conversations, whatare those measured results?
(02:52):
Because it's not traffic, right?
It's not traffic anymore.
It never was, but scream it fromthe rooftops.
Oh man, that's that's for forall you listening, you know,
like traffic has been the goldstandard of what everything has
been measured in.
And it doesn't really mean muchif it doesn't convert to sales,
(03:14):
it's just a vanity metric.
So, Maggie, I would love to hearkind of your framework for you
to set the table of kind of howyou view uh like the business
case for SEO, I guess.
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
Yeah, um it's something that actually we're
we're dealing with right nowwith a client.
Um and I think that a lot ofbusiness leaders are really into
the vanity metrics because theythink that that's what's
important.
Vanity metrics meaning traffic,um, even engagement rate, right?
Um but what we're seeing is thatmarketers really need to be uh
(03:49):
strong enough almost to have adeeper conversation with
leadership to really be able totie the business outcomes to any
marketing channel, um includingSEO.
Um budgets are getting tighterand tighter, especially as we
see private equity firms uh comein with injections of
investment.
(04:09):
Their expectations are high.
Marketing teams' expectationsare also so high, they're the
first to go.
They're I call it the leastrespected position in a
business, which is so ironiccompared to knowing that
marketing is some of the mostimportant pieces of a business.
(04:30):
And so when you're a marketer,you feel this extra pressure to
also prove that the strategiesthat you've implemented and
added to your growth strategyare actually working.
So when it comes to analytics, Ithink what we really need to do
as marketers is to dive so muchdeeper than we have, really
prioritize the education aroundanalytics and metrics, and
(04:54):
really prioritize telling thestory to leadership.
Um, because and really coachingthem, right, on what's important
and what's not.
Um, so that's sort of my likesuper high level of why this is
important.
Um and I think everybody feelsthat, probably that's listening.
Um with SEO, I think one thingthat's super surprising,
(05:16):
especially on the brand side andand people that are not actual
SEOs, is that SEO is like 70%data analysis.
So oftentimes you are you arecomparing paid ads, ROAS, to SEO
returns, and you're sort ofthinking, how do I tell this
story of success?
(05:37):
I mean, there's so manydifferent ways.
That's what makes it challengingat the same time, is there are
so many ways and so many layersthat you have to peel back to
uncover those stories of successsometimes.
Um but you know, the data isthere, and so if you have the
right partner behind you and ifyou are prioritizing the data
(05:58):
storytelling of it, then um youcan find ways to make the board
of directors happy, make theownership happy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:08):
So, Maggie, it's it's funny, like the the way
that a lot of the conversationsused to go when I'm talking to
business owners specifically,like not when you're getting
into enterprises, but likespecifically with business
owners, the conversations likeit seems like it's working.
They're like, they're like, Ican feel it, I can feel it.
(06:29):
So, like you look at all themetrics and you're like, this
should be driving leads, right?
Like this should be drivingleads.
And then the business owner'slike, yeah, it's working or it's
not working.
And then that's where theconversations get into like,
okay, well, let's look at theCRM.
And it's funny because even ifyou look at the data, you're
like, okay, well, you got thismany more leads than you were
(06:52):
getting before.
And then like you've closed thismany more deals.
And sometimes if you don't havethose revenue numbers and that
CRM's not working, the client'slike, Oh, I I don't, I don't
really, I it doesn't really likefeel like it's working.
And it's like, but revenue's upby 40%.
Like, what do you think?
What else did you do?
(07:13):
What else could it be?
Yeah, like it could like it.
No, it's not the SEO.
That's just you know, the thevisibility.
And so, like, there's alwaysbeen like these connections, but
attribution becomes really hard.
Like, when you dig down intolike KPIs, like what are what
are you wanting to look for?
What are you looking for from aKPI standpoint when you're
(07:35):
having these conversations todayof like, here's the things we
need to measure that transitioninto this, and then where are
you pulling that data from?
SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
Yeah, so I mean, it kind of changes between lead
generation business models ande-commerce business models,
right?
Um, and really, I think thebiggest disconnect that's going
on besides data quality, 100% ofour clients come in and do not
have the proper conversions, theproper tracking set up in Google
(08:07):
Analytics.
They do not have uh good dataquality, 100% of our clients.
So if you are out there andfeeling really unconfident in
your marketing data, you areabsolutely not alone.
But besides that, um, I thinkreally what we have to call out
is that leadership is not givingvisibility to marketing teams
with those metrics that tell thestory of success and help
(08:30):
attribute, or at least for alead generation model, um, help
forecast the attribution fromanything.
So what we want to see is wewant to see metrics, and this
trickles down, right, from theleadership giving that
visibility to the marketingteam.
We want to see things likeaverage order value, customer
acquisition cost, customerlifetime value.
(08:52):
We get asked all the time, well,what's the return on investment?
And it's like, well, how do weknow without customer lifetime
value?
And 99% of the time, actually,probably more like 100% of the
time, even the business ownercannot tell us that answer.
Um, and they have to go throughwho jump through hoops in order
(09:13):
to get that.
So that is one of the biggestgaps in attribution, starting
from the top down.
Um, you can measure all the datayou want, but if you don't know
those business metrics, you'renot gonna be able to say to
answer the question of what isthe ROI and what is this doing
for my bottom line.
The second is like the datahealth, right?
(09:34):
So you've got data health thatneeds to be addressed in Google
Analytics from a professional,not from your marketing manager
that can get in and set up yourlead conversion.
It needs to be addressedthroughout the entire Google
Analytics environment.
But then you also have to lookat your CRM and what you're how
you're managing that.
(09:54):
If your sales team in a leadgeneration business model is not
actively uh managing andmaintaining the hygiene of that
CRM, well, we can't tell howmany people we've put in the
pipeline from specific marketingchannels.
So it's about building thatfoundation first, getting buy-in
from the entire team to maintainthe hygiene of all of those
(10:15):
technologies and data uhconnections.
And then once that happens, thenwe want to look at things like
the increases and improvementsof customer lifetime value, the
increases and improvements ofaverage order value.
If you're lead generation,obviously you've got the leads
coming in the at the bottom ofthe funnel that you want to come
in, contact us, talk to sales,uh, speak to a dealer, whatever
(10:40):
it is, right?
Um, and so those are usuallyalready set up and they're
pretty obvious.
And so with average order value,with customer lifetime value, we
can with like your sales closerate, we can actually go ahead
and forecast how much revenue weare driving from the leads that
we're driving in through SEO.
(11:00):
So, again, even with leadgeneration business models,
there's not this likenecessarily a gray area.
Maybe you could call it a grayarea, but it's more of like we
just need to put the piecestogether.
And unfortunately, you have tobe satisfied with a forecast and
not actual attribution unlessyou are maintaining it and your
sort of technology environmentdoes, you know, close clients,
(11:23):
puts in the right the actualnumber of the deal, etc.
Um, when we're thinking aboute-commerce, we want to see those
growths and average order value.
E-commerce is so much easier totrack ROI, of course.
Even with SEO, we can see thecheckouts, we can see the
completion rates, we can see uhthe revenue, and even Google
(11:45):
Analytics has the ability tocapture average order value and
track that.
Um, we can't see customerlifetime value, but at the very
minimum, we can see the averageorder value, how that's
improving, because that goesafter your customer lifetime
value, right?
The more um, the more, thehigher the order value is, your
(12:06):
customer lifetime value is goingto grow.
So we definitely want to seethat when it comes to like
measuring the business's bottomline.
On the other uh area of thefunnel that we want to use too
is going to be your middle ofthe funnel.
How are we building pipeline?
How are those people behaving inthat pipeline?
Are we driving the warm leads tothe door through the door to the
(12:28):
sales team?
And then how are they moving toAllstate to end up as a client?
On the e-commerce side, ofcourse, it's going to be a lot
of activity.
It's going to be favorite lists,it's going to be uh adding to
cart, those types of actions.
And so if we are, if we have thedata set up correctly and we
see, okay, the completion rateof from add to cart to checkout
(12:54):
is 30%.
What do we need to do to makethat 50 to 70%?
Um, so again, it's clarityaround all stages of the buying
funnel that actually go towardsthe bottom line, but then using
those top most importantbusiness metrics that you get
from leadership, CEO, CFO, theowner of the company, um, that
(13:18):
you can also track to actuallyattribute those business wins
and how they impact the bottomline.
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
Absolutely.
So a couple thoughts that I havearound that is um certainly when
someone is pitching SEO.
Now with private equity, it's alittle bit different, but uh
typically how it's been is ifyou're pitching on the
enterprise side, you're may ormay not be talking to the
C-suite, you may be talking tolike marketing or something like
(13:44):
that.
I don't know if they have allthe numbers that they need to be
able to give you that stuff.
One, so there's potentialinternal barriers, may not they
may not have a lot of people.
That's the problem, right?
And then when you have the smallbusiness owners, they may not
even know their numbers, right?
So now you're trying to push SEOfrom the way up, trying to get
(14:05):
these numbers that it actuallyneeds to be coming from the way
down.
And then in the funnel process,if e-commerce, I love e-commerce
because everything's online.
Excuse me, everything is online.
You can see everything that'shappening.
And I think that that's thedirection that most uh most of
(14:26):
the internet is going.
Like where as much of theprocess online as possible,
e-commerce is a great model, butif you're talking about a lead
gen business, um well, you'reproducing leads that need to be
scored.
Okay.
You need to know if these aregood leads or bad leads, because
like even when you're runningpaid ads, like there's a lot of
(14:49):
spam.
There's a lot of people thatfill out forms that shouldn't.
And absolutely you get you getyou get uh you're like, oh, we
we just produced like 125 leadsuh for you, and they're like,
and three of them converted.
And you're like there there's adiscrepancy too of what the
client thinks a success is, andwhat you think a success is, and
(15:12):
what you're talking about aboutdata hygiene is incredibly
important to understand how howto understand the data that
you're looking at is and whatthose metrics are.
So I almost think SEO isdownstream, right?
SEO is downstream of businessoperations, and it and the way
(15:37):
that I think private equity islooking at it is a little bit
more accurate because I'm gonnaI'm gonna put money in this
thing, and this is what I wantto get out of it.
And you can get comps and youcan kind of see, but unless you
have historical business data,and unless you have the numbers
that you're managing to, likemarketers have a hard time or
(16:00):
SEOs have a hard time because wegot to come in, we got to put
together all the analytics, likenot to mention, you know,
universal analytics is almost onevery site we bring on now.
It's still on there.
There's two or three uh, youknow, uh tags, tags still on
there.
Like you got to get that allcleaned up.
You got to figure out how toimport the data, you got to
(16:21):
learn the client's business, yougot to be able to put it
together and explain it to theclient.
And then also whatever you'redoing, it's gonna take like a
quarter probably to impact,right?
Like it's gonna take 45 days, 60days to impact.
So then you're lookingbackwards, right?
You're not looking um like realtime of what's happening because
(16:43):
it takes a while.
There's all these differentfactors that you've got to
really understand the thebusiness acumen to be able to
have a conversation with theclient to have them like wanna
wanna develop that long-termrelationship.
And then, right, what I'mseeing, I I just went to uh like
an agency conference, and it waslike people are expecting
(17:05):
results now in 90 days.
Oh, it's crazy.
It's just like there's a lot ofthings stacked against the world
right now, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
Yeah, and to your point, I think you know what
private equity is doingdifferently than a lot of a lot
of other business owners is thatthey're they they expect a
return, they're keeping track ofthat.
Where a lot of owners or evenmarketing people, when they come
to us uh for a proposal to makea change, they hadn't even known
(17:37):
their KPIs and goals that theywere trying to reach.
So that's what private equity isdefinitely doing right in their
expectations, and and but whatthey're doing wrong is private
equity is just as impatient asme, and they want to see results
so quickly, they are really it'shard to communicate the leading
KPIs and the lagging KPIs with along-term strategy like SEO.
(18:02):
And so when we think about SEOand talking about it,
expectations are so important,um, not only for your SEO agency
to accurately communicate, butfor you to communicate with your
boards, with everybody else thatyou're reporting to, that in the
first six months, these aregoing to be leading KPIs,
they're going to be successindicators.
(18:24):
They are not going to, they'renot meant to drive results.
This is a long-term strategyplay.
Um, and so the KPIs that youreally want to look at in the
first six months are are goingto be different than measuring
success after that first year.
SPEAKER_04 (18:38):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (18:38):
Um, and certainly year three is like the year of
the magic.
That's like we're good.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Yeah, well, it's funny.
We've been we've done a coupleof remediation issues.
There's been a lot of like crazystuff that people are like
trying to get fixed, and they'llcome to us and we'll we'll fix
them.
And we've been doing likethree-month like remediation
deals where we can solve theproblem, but they want the
problem solved and they want thebusiness to have grown, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
Yeah, that's literally what we're dealing
with right now.
SPEAKER_01 (19:13):
And and so it's like, no, we're gonna remediate
the issue and then we're gonnafocus on the growth.
And you know, it's it's funnybecause um we went into a couple
of six-month agreements, andthen we we cycled down to three
month agreements, and we've donea couple three-month agreements,
and I'm kind of like, okay, ifwe're gonna date, right?
(19:34):
If we're gonna date, then like Iget it.
You don't want to sign a yearagreement out of the gate.
I get it.
Like you've been burned before,like, I get it.
Everybody has their baggage.
But if we do an awesome job, weabsolutely crush the numbers,
then like like you know how wework, we know how you work, like
(19:55):
we've got through like the getto know each other, how to
report, like what are isimportant to you.
Now we understand your business.
Now let's get into a long-termagreement.
And um, and it's it's just beenfunny.
Uh, my sales team has been doingthese like six-month agreements
that rolled into three months.
And I'm like, how about sixmonths that roll into year
(20:15):
agreements?
And then, and then what happensis we're uh, you know, we're
we're we're coming to the end ofthe agreement, and then we're
actually having to resell andresign the whole agreement.
And and it's it's not it's notbeen ideal for operations
because we've skipped, like it'staken a month to close, like or
(20:36):
a couple weeks to close.
So then the agreement ends, andthen that's a couple months to
close.
And we're trying to look atlong-term revenue, right?
We're trying to project out,like, you know, not just a
13-week, but like we're tryingto project revenue.
We had five accounts that kindof came up due at the same time
that were we were like renewing.
(20:57):
Um, and it took like alldifferent levels to like renew.
So we had this really nice dipin get uh revenue gap uh that I
had to like talk to the wholesales team and say, like, guys,
like uh we got to look at whenwe have contracts, when they're
gonna fall off, and when they'regonna renew.
And we need to like think aboutthis a little bit more.
(21:18):
That wasn't something thatwasn't a KPI for us, Maggie,
that we were yeah, we werelooking for.
And it's a it's a real thing.
Like, you gotta know yournumbers, you got to have
dashboards, and you got to lookat like what are the things that
are important for you.
But the better someoneunderstands their business, like
the more I think they'll loveSEO because the uplift on it and
(21:42):
the impact, when you can reallytrack that data, is better than
anything else you're gonna get.
And it's like you're owning realestate versus uh versus like
paid ads.
And we certainly use a lot ofpaid ads, but you know, SEO
should be that core driver, inmy opinion.
SPEAKER_03 (22:00):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
I mean, I can confidently say for probably 90%
of businesses, maybe even more,that SEO will become your
highest source of leads, yourhighest source of visitors, your
highest source of sales if donecorrectly and if invested in for
the long term.
There's no doubt about it.
And it compounds.
Um, and so yeah, uh it'sincredible how many people don't
(22:26):
believe in it.
But frankly, and Matt, youprobably get this a lot from
your prospects that there's somany bad players in SEO land.
Like they've been sold thesesuper small packages, or they've
been sold something that theydon't quite understand.
Maybe they've purchased oneaspect of SEO, thinking that the
team does all aspects of SEO.
(22:47):
And so there's a lot of PTSD inthe market in SEO land.
And I get it, you know, I getit.
It's like hiring generalcontractors or electricians,
right?
There's a lot of bad people outthere, and then there's a lot of
like really good options that doreally great work.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
Well, you know, it's funny you say contractors.
Um, a lot of my friends recentlyhave been building houses.
Um, and I never want to build ahouse.
I don't know if you've everbuilt a house, but if anybody is
listening that's built in house,um, it's a second job really to
manage your right now.
Yeah.
(23:23):
Your contractor team, and andyou know, knowing somebody that
is really good at what they domakes the process really smooth.
But there's a lot of decisions,there's a lot that's on you to
build a house.
And you know, you got to have areally good general contractor,
you gotta like trust they knowwhat they're doing.
Like the digital space is thesame way, you're building
(23:45):
digital infrastructure.
And now with the like agenticworkflows and automation and
everything else, it's a wholenother level of what you're
trying to do.
And you know, frankly, I thinkthat you know, podcasts like
this, like we're trying toprovide more education on how
you should approach these thingsso you know what you're getting
(24:06):
yourself into.
Because I think what we'vefound, Maggie, is like, okay,
like we we've we've we've beendoing this a while, a long time.
I think EWR is 25 years old.
Like in the last nine years,like even in the last nine
years, we have changed as Iguess the customer changes on
(24:28):
what they need to see in theproposals, right?
So, like if we list out here areall the proposals, right?
Here's all the stuff you want,right?
Um, they don't know what thatis, but guess what?
Like contract time come, they'relike, Well, did I get all this
stuff?
And I was like, Yeah, you youdid get all that stuff.
That's a productize service,right?
(24:50):
Or they think they're in aretainer, right?
And they're like, Well, can youdo this?
Can you do that?
And then you're like, oh, well,here's an invoice for all that
stuff.
They're like, Whoa, I'm payingyou money.
Like, I thought you were gonnado all that stuff.
Well, like there, there's a lotof like um getting on the same
page with the clientcontractually, um, from a scope
of work standpoint, like from anengagement standpoint, like how
(25:13):
you're like you're what I thinkthe big downfall is with SEO is
people are hiring SEOs to runtheir business for them and grow
their business.
Like they're not they're notpaying for traffic, they're not
paying for so there's there's adifferent level of financial
education that I feel like SEOsneed to have, and also to be
(25:37):
able to have those conversationswith the C-suite or the owners
or whatever, but also you needto be working with clients that
are on your level.
Does that make sense?
Because there's gonna befriction if someone's speaking
one language here and someone'snot speaking the same language
here, or you're kind of like twoboats missing each other in the
night.
(25:57):
So it's really about finding theright partner that can
communicate and understands whatyou need are.
And I think that that happensover the long term.
Like I think that you find apartner, you get to know what
they're looking for, youunderstand how their business
runs, and you figure out how youcan add value and help them.
And then those services likeexpand.
(26:18):
But everybody should be focusedon kind of going back to what
you were saying in thebeginning.
They need to be focused on thesame set of KPIs.
Like everybody needs to knowwhat good looks like and what
we're working towards to besuccessful.
SPEAKER_02 (26:31):
100%.
And like even thinking about thelack of transparency, yeah,
there's most marketers aren'tgiven those business metrics
from ownership.
And I find that I'm I knowpeople probably a lot of owners
that disagree with this, but Ifind that to be completely
unacceptable.
You don't hire an accountant andnot give them numbers, you don't
(26:53):
hire a sales director and notgive them numbers.
Why on earth would you hiresomebody to help you grow if
you're not gonna give themnumbers?
It's crazy.
Crazy town.
SPEAKER_01 (27:03):
Well, yeah, you know, there are some areas,
right?
If you're a doctor or a lawyeror something like that, like
there's there's patientconfidentiality, but you can
strip out the names.
But like, I think like somepeople, like you gotta, if
you're gonna hire a marketer,you've got to be honest.
Like, like, depending on themarketer you're hire, like if
you're hiring a contractor andyou're like, I'm gonna direct
(27:24):
this person to do it, but ifyou're hiring somebody to come
in and fix it, the solution, yougotta let them see the data.
Like a lot of times we have torecreate the data for the client
to say, here's the baseline thatwe're creating, because either
you don't have one or or or youwon't share it.
Like, and I think it fallssomewhere in the middle, but I
(27:45):
think that there's like thislevel of trust to like giving
people the keys to the kingdomand you know, all that.
But I I think depending again,what type of client, what type
of industry, there's there'scertain levels of permissioning
that need to be provided andcertain amount of access to also
understand like that engagement.
(28:05):
But I think that that's been thebiggest offset that I've seen
over the years is what you needto be successful and what the
client's willing to give you, orwhat the client has access to to
put all that together in like acompressed time frame, which
you're stepping into a businessthat you're trying to fix, like
(28:26):
that they've been working on forhowever many years it is.
Like you want me in six monthsto come in and understand your
business and fix your businesswhen I don't even understand how
it operates.
Like, and so a lot of what I'vehad to do, Maggie, is I I
typically go in as a fractional,depending on the client, and
(28:47):
like understand like what isgoing on in the business.
And then I help kind of get theparts wired in to our team,
right?
And I'll build the pod and I'llfigure out what they need and
we'll have discussions aboutlike, okay, like, do you want to
hire this?
Do you want this managedinternally or do you want this
external?
(29:08):
Or like what do you need to do?
But it it it quickly bridgesthat gap, which I had not as
much comfort with early on ofbecoming a business consultant,
right?
Because like marketing isintegral into like how
everything is flowing, howeverything customer retention,
right?
Right, you got some drip emails.
(29:30):
Uh, maybe you got a customerlist, you got a newsletter, you
were talking about the messymiddle.
Like, there's so many differentfactors that fit in that
typically nothing's alreadyprepared, and they're like, here
are all the tools, here's allthe KPIs, here's everything you
need.
Get started.
I would love that actually, butum, it doesn't always happen
(29:50):
that way.
SPEAKER_03 (29:51):
It doesn't, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_02 (29:53):
And um, yeah, it can be, it's I mean, to everybody's
defense, it's gotten soconvoluted.
Everybody's stressed, like thetariffs are crazy, the cost of
running a business is crazy, thecost of employing people, and
the especially obviously in theUnited States is insane.
Um, and so I, you know, I getthat everybody's, you know, as
(30:16):
an entrepreneur and you're anentrepreneur, we both showed up
and we're like, oh my God,everything's been going so fast.
So I totally get it, but it'ssomething that definitely needs
to prior be prioritized if theywant to take their growth
seriously, if they want to feelconfident in their decisions and
if they want to feel confidentin their forecasting.
SPEAKER_01 (30:35):
Absolutely.
So in this discussion, we'vewe've covered a number of
different things from likemetrics to like the mess middle,
from e-commerce to like lead genbusinesses.
Um, you know, I think that, andwe and we've also talked about
kind of the expectation withwhen you're either working with
(30:57):
an agency or you're uh acontractor or your uh agency
talking to a client of you gotto get on that same page with
that same vocabulary.
Um, what else do you think,Maggie, would be helpful to this
discussion for people that arelistening to this to know?
(31:22):
I hope you can edit this longpause out.
Oh, I think it's great.
I think we should keep it in.
SPEAKER_03 (31:31):
I mean, I feel like there's like hundreds of things,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Um so like what what has been the biggest secret to
success then?
What has been the biggest secretto success when dealing with
this?
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
Well, I just I just found an answer to your initial
question.
Oh wow, let me let me let me getinto that.
And it goes into the messymiddle, right?
Because you get a you get aprospect or you get a client in
the door, they've got their oneconversion set up, purchase or
contact us.
The leadership only wants toinvest in what's going to drive
(32:08):
ROI.
So not only is your middle amess, but it's totally
underinvested in.
And even you see brand awarenesstotally underinvested in.
And so I think part of theconversation, in addition to all
of the things we talked about,is really breaking out the plan
by the funnel stages of thefunnel, really making sure that
(32:30):
you're allocating enough foreach stage of the funnel.
Because ultimately, when youcome to us and you've had really
unsuccessful paid ads, most ofthe time we're finding either
the investment isn't right, theperson running it wasn't
competent, or you're not drivingpeople effectively through all
stages of the buying funnel.
(32:51):
You're just trying to go afterthe leads generated, right?
So I think like as we come into2027 planning, there's some
refinement that you can do.
Asking, let's break it down towhat we've discussed so far,
asking leadership for thosebusiness metrics that matter the
most to the bottom line, uh,prioritizing hiring an expert,
hire a freaking expert to gointo your Google Analytics and
(33:14):
your HubSpot CRM, whatever itis, making sure that your data
infrastructure is sound, makingsure that people are keeping it
hygienic.
And then next, making sure thatin your plan, you're mapping out
all stages of the buying funnel.
So you get buy-in from theleadership, you set their
expectations right out the gate,but then you're not coming in
(33:36):
after quarter one, realizingthat you just totally
underinvested it in the middleof the funnel.
So, and also the middle of thefunnel is typically where we
find the most conversionopportunities when it comes to a
website that haven't been actedon, right?
You've got so many assets thatare already there that aren't
(33:56):
set up as conversions or aren'tgated or aren't even considered
for middle of the funnel users.
So definitely don't forget aboutthat middle of the funnel, don't
forget about the top of thefunnel as you go after that
lagging KPI, the beautiful sale,the new client, etc.
SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
So I love what you said there.
And and what registered for methe most was we started this
conversation about the KPIs forSEO, and your answer included
analytics, uh business strategy,content creation, um, paid ads.
(34:37):
I might have said that before,but I I heard like seven or
eight different things.
Like that that when we talkabout SEO, I don't think people
know what it is, at least myexperience, which I it sounds
like very similar to yours, isit's SEO is make my business
work better, fix it all.
(34:58):
Okay, like that's like get meleads with the bow on it and
grow my business and do it allwith as little amount of my
effort as possible.
And I think that that's thewrong frame.
I really do.
I think that's the wrong frame.
And if you're gonna be bringingin a digital marketer or an SEO
(35:22):
to help fix that piece of thebusiness, they're all
interconnected.
Like you got to like systemthink about how all these things
impact those other things, andyou need to be able to elevate
whoever you bring in to beingpart of your executive team.
Like they need to have a voicein the room, or whoever is in
(35:43):
that room, that person needs tomake that person look like a
champion and needs to be able toprovide them all the information
they have to be able to go tothe CFO and say, this was
helpful.
It was funny.
We were working with thispublicly traded company, and um,
we did a three-month engagement.
We fixed everything they needed.
They had a kind of a contentflow issue that they needed to
(36:06):
get stuff published.
And, you know, going back tolike get the second engagement,
like we're still in the processof that.
And it's been two months becauseyou know, things take a while,
they're still talking to us.
In the two months that we've notdone anything, but we set the
trajectory.
I I still are tracking theresults.
They're first for they're firstfor everything.
(36:28):
Okay, they're absolutely first,but like it took like it didn't
happen, it didn't happenimmediately.
Does that make sense?
Like, oh, absolutely not, yeah.
And then there was internaldependencies that they needed to
get figured out, and like theywere stacked up, you know, and
they're like, hey, like we gotto get this figured out before
(36:49):
we like engage.
And so there's been a lot ofthese conversations, but it's
almost like you know, you're yougotta you gotta look in the
rears of what we did lastquarter is impacting this
quarter because you know, fromthe conversation we have, they
haven't done anything.
It's just all this stuff thatstarted to catch and started to
(37:10):
pop, and then that drives likeother big business cases.
But yeah, I mean, you're you'renot just dealing with SEO.
Like if you're dealing with theenterprise company, you can't
touch their website, right?
Or you're dealing with IT, oryou're dealing with their
internal content approval teamor investor team.
SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
Yeah, it's the biggest struggle.
SPEAKER_02 (37:31):
Um, and and the team, the IT team and the
website team, I mean, it is theyare not engineers, right?
So you've got these people thatare putting not only not
prioritizing the SEOimplementation, but they're also
taking double the time toimplement because they're trying
(37:53):
to figure out what we're talkingabout.
So that's definitely a hugestruggle that a lot of our
clients that where they don'twant us to touch the website.
That's like one of the biggestthings for sure.
For sure.
Um yeah, I think there'ssomething else I wanted to say,
but well, if you think of it,definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (38:16):
Um, I would love to hear from from you.
Um, what are the most common uhlike patches, like dependencies
that you're running up againstwith when when you're when
you're trying to get to thislike numbers driven uh SEO
(38:36):
economy that you're you'retrying to build that that
culture with the client of likehere are the things we need to
look at, here's the tracking,here's how you talk to your
people and saying, you know,these are the things we need to
be focused on because it's it'sreally the business use case of
SEO, not the vanity metric usecase.
Like, where are you getting,where is your team getting
(38:56):
stuck, and what have you done toovercome those things?
SPEAKER_02 (39:00):
I mean, I think just like naturally, just the client
not having the right data, thesales team not utilizing the
CRM, um, those are definitelythe biggest roadblocks to
actually getting the data thatthey want.
Um and just the ROI stuff, likewe talked about before.
SPEAKER_03 (39:22):
Like that just is that the question you were
thinking that you were asking?
SPEAKER_01 (39:25):
Well, I like where you're going with uh bringing in
the sales team.
How do you think a sales teamviews SEO?
And what is, you know, your viewof like the marketing qualified
lead and the sales qualifiedlead conversation?
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
We make sales teams very happy, Matt.
I feel like you can agree.
Um I mean, ultimately, what wefind to be the biggest barrier
in the leads that we generate,producing and tracking,
producing that ROI and thetracking and all that is the
sales team basically not havingtheir shit together, right?
(40:03):
You've got salespeople that arenot are very anti-CRM.
Fire them immediately.
They should not be on your teamin this day and age.
I'm sorry, but every salespersonyou hire should be actively
involved and excited aboututilizing technology in a CRM.
Um, they might not be doing anytype of like CRM cleanup, they
(40:25):
might not be effectively movingthe lead from one stage of the
deal to the next.
So that's more on the managementside, I think, is making sure
not only is that buy-in there,not only is um are all of our
hires technology focused, butthey're also managing the
hygiene as well, and that in theway that they need in order to
(40:49):
get the reporting that theyneed.
Um, the other aspect to this isthere's that natural silo, that
natural separation between salesand marketing, which is totally,
totally outdated in this day andage.
So sales and marketing need totalk.
The marketing team can provideinsights to the sales team, the
(41:11):
sales team can tell themarketing team what are the most
common objections, where whereare you getting questions from,
what are the most commonquestions that are being
answered, because then thismarketing team can apply those
insights to their content andvice versa, and right content
for the sales team.
So we need to have marketing andsales also connected and working
(41:32):
together to really bring aboutthis like huge impact.
So I think sales can be really,really happy.
I think sales directors don'tknow most many of them, most of
them that I talk to, VPs ofsales, sales directors, most of
them don't know um much aboutmarketing, which I think um they
(41:54):
probably should get to know itslightly when it comes to
inbound leads, managing those,how to, how to sort of like ask
for that, how to ask for theoptimization of that.
Um, but they certainly need tobe meeting with the marketing
team regularly because there'sso much impact that the two
departments can have when theycome together.
SPEAKER_01 (42:15):
I I like that yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:18):
I'm a New Yorker, Matt.
I'm a New Yorker.
But you know what, Matt, too, isI don't think people realize how
much data um can be utilizedfrom marketing and from SEO
across many departments, right?
Like for product brands, you'vegot data on what people are
(42:40):
searching for the most whenyou've got specific products or
aesthetics, you've got trendingtopics, you've got your top
pages.
Um, there's so much data acrossthe entire company that can be
utilized from the SEO data thatwe get.
And so that's also important tokind of note like where are
(43:00):
things dropping off?
What direction should we go infor product development?
What should our messaging be?
Um, what should our focus be?
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
I think that SEOs have more data.
Uh, and uh the more time I'mlike cross-functional teams, uh,
usually the our our team is theone providing all the analytics
to the radio ads or the TV ads,like they the the marketing
hasn't been data driven tilldigital marketing, and then
really like SEO, you have to diginto it, like you said earlier.
(43:31):
Like, like it's mostly dataanalysis, right?
And it's math and algorithms.
Um, I gotta get out of here,Maggie.
I got a hard stop.
Um, no, Matt, no, I gotta go.
I gotta go.
And so, but I think that we'vehad a great discussion.
I want to give you theopportunity uh to share uh with
(43:52):
everyone listening if they wantto follow you, they want to find
out more, they want to hire you.
How do they best do that, MaggieSwift?
SPEAKER_03 (44:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (44:00):
Yeah, so uh follow me on LinkedIn for sure.
We put a lot of great videosout, or so I heard, we put a lot
of fun videos out when it comesto SEO.
We are speaking to people whowant to learn more about SEO,
uh, not necessarily speaking toall of the other SEOs out there.
So we're really wanting to bringcontent that's digestible, that
(44:22):
you understand, that yourownership understands.
Um, it'd be great if youfollowed me and kept in touch.
Um, reach out to me anytime.
You can hit me up on Maggie atunframedigital.com.
My company name is UnframedDigital.
We are a performance-drivensearch marketing agency um that
specializes in building demandthrough Google and through AI
(44:44):
and capturing demand throughuser experience and conversion
strategies.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
Well, if y'all want that fire, all right, and and to
get your data hygiene cleanedup, it's something that's
important.
Reach out to Maggie Swift uh atUnframe.
So we'll put all your links inthe show notes, Maggie.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Um, if you want to grow yourbusiness with the largest, most
powerful planet on the internet,you should keep listening to
(45:13):
this podcast.
So uh until the next time, myname is Matt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.
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