April 5, 2026 • 44 mins
Matthew Bertram sits down with David Albert of CRO Metrics to unpack what is actually changing across SEO, AEO, GEO, LLM visibility, and the modern stack as tools like Claude Code make custom apps and automations feel effortless.
• the shift from bloated martech stacks to custom AI middleware and small internal apps
• why compliance, governance, and shadow AI access are now daily marketing risks
• using guardrails and shared boilerplates to democratize internal tool building
• turning years of experiment data into RAG search and predictive CRO scoring
• how SEO, AI visibility, and paid traffic performance depend on on-site conversion work
• practical signs a site needs CRO even when the ask is “more leads”
• a modern definition of CRO built on statistical validation and incrementality
• starter tools and simple first tests like headlines, CTAs, trust signals, and form friction
Guest Contact Information:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidpaulalbert
More from EWR and Matthew:
Leave us a review wherever you listen: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or Amazon Podcast
Free SEO Consultation: www.ewrdigital.com/discovery-call
With over 5 million downloads, The Best SEO Podcast has been the go-to show for digital marketers, business owners, and entrepreneurs wanting real-world strategies to grow online.
Now, host Matthew Bertram — creator of the LLM Visibility® Stack, and Lead Strategist at EWR Digital — takes the conversation beyond traditional SEO into the AI era of discoverability.
Each week, Matthew dives into the tactics, frameworks, and insights that matter most in a world where search engines, large language models, and answer engines are reshaping how people find, trust, and choose businesses. From SEO and AI-driven marketing to executive-level growth strategy, you’ll hear expert interviews, deep-dive discussions, and actionable strategies to help you stay ahead of the curve.
Find more episodes here:
Rate the show in your podcast app. Apple ratings are how new listeners decide whether to press play — an honest one takes about thirty seconds. Steps for iPhone, Mac and Spotify:
www.bestseopodcast.com/review
Follow us on:
Facebook: @bestseopodcast
Instagram: @thebestseopodcast
Tiktok: @bestseopodcast
LinkedIn: @bestseopodcast
Connect With Matthew Bertram:
Website: www.matthewbertram.com
Instagram: @matt_bertram_live
LinkedIn: @mattbertramlive
Powered by: ewrdigital.com
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:17):
Howdy, welcome back to another Funfield episode of
The Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, Matthew Bertram.
I am excited to be on today.
There's a lot of thingshappening in the AI space.
It's moving very, very quickly.
Definitely with the AEO, GEO,SEO, LLM visibility, whatever
(00:39):
you want to call it.
There's a lot happening therewith uh AI systems as well as
search systems.
Uh, more than has happened inthe last 25 years.
And now, really, this is, Ithink, going to be the year of
agents.
And um, a lot of things arehappening where you're not just
using LLMs to ask questions too,you're actually using things
(01:02):
like Claud Code to actuallybuild things and do things.
And there's all kinds of toolsout there like Replit, and you
can add you can say a sentenceand it will build you a little
app or a widget.
And everybody's trying to decidewhether or not you're gonna
build something or buysomething.
What is the future of SaaS looklike?
And so I thought I would bringuh David Albert on from uh CMO
(01:25):
Metrics, who's kind ofstraddling that space.
He's dealing with the AI SEOcomponent as well as uh
conversion rate optimization,which is very adjacent to what's
going on uh in the SEO space.
I know he does some SEO as well.
Um, but really in thedevelopment space uh surrounding
(01:45):
um, should you should you buildyour own tools or should you pay
a bunch of software?
So, Dave, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
Hey Matthew, great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
I love that you're outside.
So everybody you can kind ofhear some birds chirping.
The weather is good in someplaces, uh, and uh uh excited to
um just kind of have adiscussion with a longtime
agency owner of all the kind ofthings that are going through
our head.
It's it's every you know, everymonth uh it the landscape
(02:17):
changes.
So I'm curious uh what's on yourradar?
What are what are you lookingat?
What's happening in uh from yourstandpoint?
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Yeah, I think the uh the interesting questions that
we're grappling with nowadays,especially as we're we're
working with clients and even onour own business, is this idea
of like you said, now that wehave sort of clawed code
entering the picture and a lotof these LLMs and really what AI
and AI agents are enabling, isyou know, the old world was like
(02:49):
bio bloated stack and acceptsort of the fragmentation
between your systems or work onthat fragmentation with the
systems.
The new world seems to be AIbeing able to make custom
building far more realistic, uh,and the time that you can sort
of get to market on those thingsis is just so rapid.
(03:10):
And so it really gets down tothat that answer of you know,
thinking about it from the pointof view of building selectively
and then buying strategically,which is a new paradigm that I
think that a lot of marketersreally haven't been used to.
You know, we've inherited kindof a lot of these systems, we
know that they don't talk toeach other.
(03:31):
I don't know how manyconversations I've had over the
years uh where the number onecomplaint I get from clients is,
you know, we have all this dataand all the data is living in
silos, and we need to figure outhow to kind of unify all this
data.
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
Yeah, no, I think MPC servers and kind of
connecting everything togetherwith Claude Skills is really um
helping change that paradigm, asyou you say.
Um in that conversation, some ofthe conversation I've had with a
number of clients is well, is itcommercially ready?
(04:06):
Right.
So, like a lot of people arebuilding tools, and if you're
using it for internal use,that's one thing.
But if you have high throughputand you're you're adding a lot
of customer count, um, there's alot of kind of compliance
components, there's a lot ofthings to think about.
And so a lot of people arethrowing together an app or uh a
piece of software, and thenclients are getting really
(04:28):
excited and are wanting to go tomarket with this, and then
traditional developers are like,whoa, slow down.
And then you have arguments likeuh like base 44.
We've been using base 44 a lot,which Wix bought it.
And um, you know, I think thatthose are going to talk
together.
I think even like Mantis uh froman ad standpoint is really
(04:49):
interesting.
We've been asking it somequestions related to Facebook
ads, and so like there's thismerger of a lot of these
systems, and it's really likewell, it's materially better
than it was six months ago.
And, you know, I can't remember.
Uh I haven't done a podcast forabout two weeks, but Claude Code
took over um the world, right?
(05:11):
And then Chat GPT sucked thatup.
And, you know, okay, Maltbot andeverything else, if you're
following the space closely, uh,you know, we got a Mac mini
going, right?
And now we're using some VPSsand we're building some
different things, but you know,the development team's like,
okay, slow down.
Um, and clients are pushingpretty hard to say, okay, this
(05:35):
is possible, just make ithappen.
And connecting all the pipes onthe back end, making sure that
stuff's not breaking.
I I feel like it's movingincredibly fast.
And we want to kind of pump thebrakes from a risk standpoint
and saying customer data andwhere is the stuff being
processed, and you know, likelike, do you need to build a
(05:55):
model internally?
And these are all questions thattraditional marketers have not
dealt with in the merger of um,you know, uh programmers and
like content and SEO people,it's kind of all being blended
together of what's possible.
And so, like, how I know I threwa lot at you there, but like
really the buyer build, where'sthe line for you on what's
(06:19):
commercially ready and like whatyou should just maybe keep
in-house for customizations?
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
Yeah, I think that's a that's a great topic.
And you know, obviously, you'renot going to want to replace
your core systems, right?
I mean, to say, oh, we're gonnavibe code our web analytics app
and replace, you know, Amplitudeor GA4 or something like that,
like certainly I don't thinkthose things are wise or uh um
(06:48):
areas that that folks should bereally be pursuing.
I mean, if it's core to yourbusiness, it's a core platform,
you know, the idea is that's notright for replacement.
I think a lot of what thetechnologies are offering us
right now is things to beaugmentitative to what we're
doing, right?
It is it is that ability to kindof stitch those systems together
(07:12):
to like be that middleware andalso be those little utilitarian
tools or plugs that can kind ofcome in and help solve some
novel problems.
And I almost look at it, youknow, from a governance
standpoint, yeah.
Totally understand what you'resaying, you know, where there's
a concern about security and whohas access to these things and
(07:33):
like what are they doing tothese systems?
And the way that I'm thinkingabout it, the way that we're
trying to do it within ourorganization is to really sort
of democratize this with someguardrails.
And so an example of that is werolled out um like a boilerplate
to being able to do apps, and sothat boilerplate uh has some
(07:58):
security guardrails in it, ithas some direction around how
things should be coded, it haseven some like UX UI
considerations and stuff likethat.
And so as long as people arefollowing the boilerplate, then
we know some guardrails arebeing followed, but we it at the
same time opens up thatdemocratization of being able to
(08:20):
buy code, right?
I almost look at it as like anew spreadsheet in a way,
because it's like, well, youwouldn't tell anybody, oh, whoa,
whoa, whoa, don't create aspreadsheet, right?
Like, what are you doing?
That's dangerous.
Um, and it's and you alsowouldn't worry about how many
spreadsheets people arecreating.
It's like we all have abazillion spreadsheets.
So to me, it's like, well, thisis sort of the next level.
(08:43):
A lot of this mod coding is thenext level, just doing
spreadsheets, right?
It's like I want to be able tosolve something that maybe I
would have used a spreadsheetfor in the past, but now I can
describe it to an LLM and itcreates a much more
multifunctional version ofsomething that would have just
been a pain to try to recreatewith other software before.
SPEAKER_02 (09:06):
Man, I have three quick things to respond on that.
First is I definitely haveclients that have vibe coded
their own kind of GA4replacement.
And um that that has been aninteresting conversation of
like, this is how we're trackingnow, and this is the data that
we're using.
I'm like, well, let's, you know,and you're talking about
(09:27):
websites, right, that are thatare built completely outside of
a a known framework, right?
It's just completely HTML code,um, which which has been an
interesting conversation.
Specifically, the kind of umbringing everything together
component under one roof, Ithink is the core problem that
(09:48):
marketers need to solve.
And I went through like anexecutive um program through
Harvard that that was kind ofthe core issue that they were
trying to solve.
So I think a lot of businessesare trying to figure out
cleaning up that data, LOMs, itdoesn't have to be that clean.
Okay, we can move a little bitquicker.
And so a lot of the data sciencestuff got slowed down uh when
(10:09):
everybody's still cleaning updata.
But now where are thehallucination hallucinizations
coming from?
Well, maybe we need to uh have alittle bit more grounding.
Um, but I think that that's likethe key topic.
And then from the guardrailstandpoint, I can tell you to
your point, um, to expand uponthat a little bit.
I I mean, my team was trying outa lot of different tools, and I
(10:32):
was like, wait before you givethat tool, whoever that is,
whoever just stood that up,access to like all our Google
Drive, all our emails, likeeverything that we have, because
you don't know where it's beingprocessed, who's ingesting it,
what are you know, what aretheir terms of service.
And and I think that once thatinformation, like shadow AI,
(10:55):
gets out there from a publiclytraded company or you know, uh
proprietary data how to dostuff, like once it gets into
the LMs, I mean, I'm not surehow you get it back.
Like, I'm not sure.
Like, if you're it okay, you'veclicked the button, don't train
the model.
I'm not sure.
Like, I don't know how some ofthese LMs process information,
(11:17):
um, you know, what where thoselines exactly are on the terms
of service.
We're trying to really dig intothat.
But like once that informationgets out there to a public LM
and it gets updated and you'veadded proprietary information or
you know, whatever out there, Idon't know how you take that
back.
And I feel like that's a realconcern um for for a lot of
(11:39):
people.
And you know, I feel like evenyour prompts, like your prompt
library, is starting to become,you know, potentially uh um you
know, IP to a certain degree.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, and it you know, it'sjust getting worsened with um, I
think you mentioned it earlier,like releases like open claw,
where you know, kind ofintroducing this massive sort of
security risk.
And uh, if you saw recentlyNVIDIA release their own sort of
version of OpenClaw, becausethey're really security, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
That that was cool.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, and and it's interestingto see uh, you know, obviously
it serves the best interest ofNVIDIA to release something like
that, but at the same time,they're recognizing that, like,
oh, this is the future, right?
This is how companies are goingto operate, this is how they're
going to do business, and weneed to figure out a way to make
this safe for organizations.
(12:36):
Uh, because I can only imagine,you know, the governance teams
and the scrambling that thelarger enterprise companies are
grappling with right now, withall of the concerns you've just
mentioned.
Um, I think it's easier,obviously, for smaller
organizations, smaller firms toact a little bit more
entrepreneurial with this stuff,take a little bit more risk.
(12:58):
But yeah, your concerns areabsolutely valid in terms of
once something gets out there,you know, it's out.
There, it's Pandora's box, youreally can't close it back up.
SPEAKER_02 (13:08):
Yeah, no, so so okay, let's go back to like um,
you know, uh agencies, because alot of people that are listening
are at agencies and they'retrying to figure out um how all
this fits together.
And if you're listening and youfeel like you're behind, you
are.
Um uh, you know, basically it'smoving really, really quickly.
(13:31):
And so if you're starting tobuild custom GPTs, that's great,
and you should be doing that,but that is from a research
mode, not from a do mode.
So there's gonna be this agenteconomy, I believe.
And I I was involved in cryptoand I think they're kind of
merging, like frontiertechnologies are coming
together.
And even I don't know if it wasMcKenzie or who released a
(13:52):
report saying last year was theyear of the agents, and I think
this year with OpenClaw kind ofkicked it off.
And now we're we're starting tosee digital teams being set up,
people integrating this stuff.
And I mean, once a company getsAI enabled or AI first and
starts to move, that gap's gonnaget widened and widened and
(14:16):
widened.
And so I think you really needto stay on top of what's
happening.
I think where you where we weretalking about in the beginning,
can you build your own tools soyou don't have this massive
bloat in tech?
And a lot of times people arepaying a lot of money for models
or sorry, SaaS products, andthey're only using a component
of it, right?
(14:36):
And they're like, and it's notworking for exactly what I want.
And so I feel like there's thisopportunity to customize and
build what you need for yourworkflows in a way that that
really benefits what you'retrying to do.
Like, I would love to hear kindof maybe some of the the just
(14:57):
high-level stuff from a CROstandpoint of some of the maybe
the full first tools that youwere like, man, someone's not
doing this.
We have this internalcapability, like, let's build
this tool that does this thing.
And I saw on your site too thatyou've started to trademark some
stuff.
And I'm just kind of curious,okay, like when you started to
wrap your head around this andyou said I can apply this to our
(15:20):
business, where you went tofirst.
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
Yeah, I think on the CRO standpoint, well, to just to
take a step back, I think whereagencies should be thinking
about this is really in terms oflike first and foremost, what
sort of proprietary data do youhave access to, right?
How can you leverage that dataand how can you get your
(15:46):
back-end systems in a placewhere you can sort of put AI on
top of that data to reallymaximize its use?
And so, an example from ourbusiness is we've been around
for you know 15 years now, andwe've run thousands and
thousands of experiments for ourclients.
(16:06):
So you can imagine A-B tests,multivariate tests,
personalization campaigns, allthat good stuff.
We uh have the foresight to keepall of that stuff into a in a
database.
So we've been collecting all ofthese experiments and all that
data in a database for years,and so we we realized at some
point, hey, wow, we're sittingon this mound of really great
(16:29):
A-B testing data.
Yeah, and so could we put AI infront of this?
And you know, we kind of startedwhere everybody else is is kind
of doing it with these things,is it's like, okay, well, let's
set up a rag system first,right?
So, you know, if you havequestions about past experiments
or kind of what's worked forother clients or verticals or
different things like that, wecan enable chat so you can ask
(16:52):
questions about the data.
But then we sort of quicklypivoted to this idea of like,
could we use AI and machinelearning to train a model on
this data to then predict thefuture success of new
experiments, right?
Um, so just kind of using priorsto do that, and we found that we
(17:12):
we we were able to train a modelon that that both looks at a
predictive analysis of of thelikelihood of the test winning,
but then also like what is thegoing to be the projected impact
of that test.
And so it sort of takes thosetwo dimensions, marries them
together, and sort of gives youa score of whether you should
consider running that test ornot.
(17:33):
We call that impact lens.
And we knew that the efficacy ofthat was going to be a
longitudinal study, right?
Because you roll something likethat out, and it's like, well,
you gotta run experiments, youhave to bring them to
statistical significance.
Like, this is gonna take a whileto get a number of experiments
in the hopper that we've scoredusing these algorithms to say
(17:55):
whether or not this works.
And we did find interestinglythat over time we actually saw
not only the predictions matchwith reality, but that the
efficacy of the tool kind ofincreased the more data that we
were able to learn and train onit over time.
(18:15):
So that's just one example.
I mean, the the advice I wouldgive agencies is really start
with like looking at hey, do youhave data that you're sitting on
that could be useful?
And think about creative waysthat you could leverage that
data.
It could be re you know, uh theability to do client research
for clients, competitiveanalysis, or uh research that
(18:37):
you could then use to createunique differentiating
strategies.
You know, there's kind of allkinds of things to be thinking
about with this.
SPEAKER_02 (18:45):
I I love that.
There's there's another tool outthere.
Um, I'll I'll give it to youafter after this call, but
essentially I think someone setup, I think it was like 10,000
uh like profiles, right?
All different like people, andyou can then take that the the
the thought or the thing thatyou want to test, right?
(19:05):
The hypothesis, throw it intothat, and then see how they talk
to each other, how they connect,and and kind of see what happens
to the model.
I think taking that datacombined with like what you have
uh give could give you like aeven fuller picture of that
impact.
Because I think that a lot ofpeople are gonna want to say,
(19:26):
well, what is the synthetic testor what does the model say
before we spend a dollar on ads?
Right.
Like I like from an adstandpoint, you're starting to
be able to create the tools,they are amazing on like you
could take a product and youcould create all these different
um ads uh in differentplacements, do the all these
different things.
And now you can like run thattest to say, okay, like what
(19:49):
what is the what is thelikelihood or variance that we
think we're gonna get with this?
And that's something I thinkthat the business side um uh of
of companies wanna wanna seewhen they look at marketing.
So it's not as soft, but it'sreally like you know, here's
that investment of what it'sgonna do.
And so it's something tangible.
(20:10):
And I think that that's why ifyou even say SEO versus paid
ads, is why paid ads tends toget more budget because it's
more concrete on what the outputis and where those influences
impact.
I mean, have you like how do youview it when you're looking at
data sets and you're runningtests?
Like, have you I I I you knowpaid ads is you set up the test,
(20:34):
you run it, but like when you'redoing CRO testing, um, how do
you look at the comparisonbetween paid ads and SEO?
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Yeah, great question.
I mean, I I think that they allwhat we try to promote is they
really all work symmetricallytogether, right?
I mean, the idea is that youwant to drive traffic to the
website and you ultimately wantthat traffic to convert.
And so obviously, SEO is and andAI visibility is going to help
(21:06):
get that qualified traffic intothe website.
Paid ads are going to get thattraffic into the website, and
then once they're on thatwebsite, what is that optimal
user experience that gets themto convert?
And so we're trying to make surethat kind of all of those things
converge in a way.
And I do think that we're goingto see kind of a wave of
(21:28):
predictive analysis hit us.
You know, if this year is theyear of the agents, I mean maybe
next year is the year ofpredictive analysis.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
Who knows?
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
Totally.
And so I, you know, I couldreally see a world in which
we're seeing more predictiveanalysis with paid ads and the
propensity for a paid ad to besuccessful.
I could see that with SEO aswell.
I could see uh, you know, a lotof these AI visibility tools now
are providing recommendations asto specifically like, you know,
(21:58):
we this is all the things thatwe found.
This is how we cited it.
Here's what to go do about it.
And it would be interesting tosee some predictive modeling go
into some of those tools to sortof stack rank that stuff, right?
Uh, rather than um, I mean, I'mI want to use the word
arbitrary.
I don't think it's it's beingrecommended arbitrarily, but
(22:18):
really like, is there some sortof algorithm or methodology to
what's being suggested and thelikelihood it has of being
successful relative to thatsuggestion?
Right.
And getting back to what you'retalking about with some of the
simulation stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
So, so the LLM TXT file, right?
Txt file, right, right?
Like there's a big debate onwhether or not that that's
useful.
None of the models have saidthat they look at it, but
there's probably a highlikelihood they do, and there's
a less high likelihood thatthey'll tell us.
Um, and so like thatrecommendation's being pushed
(22:53):
out there, but there's noconcrete data one way or another
of like what's going to happenwith that.
Uh, one of the things I thinkthat's real tangible that I feel
like is important from a CROstandpoint, right?
So people talk about SEO, butwhen I have companies approach
from a lead gen standpoint froman SEO, they're not asking for
rankings.
(23:14):
They're not, they're asking forleads, they're asking for new
business.
And and that's like the fullpackage.
And so a lot of times when we'retalking to clients, we say,
well, you got SEO.
Well, then we need to transferover to CRO at a certain point.
Once we get enough traffic, weneed to start doing CRO.
Now with AI overviews and LLMvisibility and all this kind of
(23:35):
stuff, like you don't get asmuch traffic to your website.
So you really need to focus onthat transactional component of
getting them to click andgetting them to your website.
And I feel like CRO, like ifthey were 50-50, let's just say
CRO is now 75-25 because youknow, you're getting one and
(23:56):
one.
Well, let's just say you'regetting 25% of the traffic.
I'm just, you know, I'm youknow, I'm I'm just arbitrarily
picking a number here, but I'msaying you're getting 25% of the
traffic you were getting before,or a third, let's say a third.
People can go with that.
You're getting a third of thetraffic you were getting before.
Now, once they're on your site,they're like, that's gold,
right?
(24:16):
You're like, what are they doingonce they're on their site?
Let's look at the heat mapping,let's look at the flow.
GA4 actually has a lot of waysto see stuff that I think that I
would encourage people to go umget get re-educated on GA4
because they've there's a lot ofdata in there.
It's just kind of hidden, it'skind of in a different spot, but
you can see the funnel movementof what people are doing, but
(24:40):
it's all CRO.
It's like we got this personhere, they're probably ready to
buy, they've came through atransactional click.
Okay, now they're gonna buy hereor they're in the comparison
phase.
Like we got to capture them now.
And you know, there's there'stools that that you know help
you uh get some additionalinsights, but I feel like a lot
(25:03):
of websites we've been seeingrecently and a lot of clients
that come to us, CRO is not whatthey're asking for.
It's not what's on their radar,and it's probably the most
important thing that they shouldbe doing.
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we we've been preachingthat for years, even before AI
was a thing, right?
Uh, you know, if you looked atthe studies, it was like this is
one of the highest ROI thingsthat you can be doing that is
not a massive investmentrelative to other things that
you're pouring money into,right?
People pouring money intoobviously running paid ads, it's
(25:40):
one of the most expensive thingsyou can do.
And then even a lot of theinvestments from uh the
standpoint of datainfrastructure and the Martech
stack and all the sort of dataengineering that people are
pursuing to kind of, like I saidat the beginning, stitch all
these systems together.
And you look at all of thoseinvestments relative to what
people are actually investing inconversion rate optimization,
(26:04):
and it's like, you know, the thecurrow optimization piece is
minuscule compared to that.
And it's like, yeah, but this islike one of the highest leverage
things that you could be doing.
And so I think a lot of it comesdown to um, I don't know if it's
just not as sexy of an area assome of these other ones, or
it's just people look at it assomething that's harder to do
(26:24):
than some of these other ones,but it's it's always kind of
been interesting to us beingmostly a crow firm of the sort
of you know, kind of prevailingum perception out there of crow
and and really what peopleshould be investing in.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
Well, to your point, if you're looking at customer
acquisition costs, right, andyou're spending a bunch of paid
ads, and you know, a lot ofpeople just like to throw more
money at it and and go, okay,well, this is how much people
we're getting through ourfunnel.
So let's just throw more moneyat it and we'll get more people
through it.
It's like, well, what what iswhat is your benchmark versus
(27:01):
competitors or the industry?
And go, like, how leaky is yourfunnel?
Why don't we uh spend the sameamount or spend less and convert
at a lower rate?
Um, and then and then you youmaximize and and get that
leverage.
I'm curious, um, when you lookat a client or your team's
prospecting or whatever, what islike the identifiers that people
(27:25):
are listening that hey, I mightneed CRO?
Because I I feel like it ithasn't been enough on people's
radar to know they need it.
I mean, no one calls me, and youknow, um, and I'm just we're
just one agency, so you know,but no one calls me going, I
need a CRO.
Like they might need it, it'svery clear that they need it,
(27:47):
but they're just like I needmore leads, we need someone to
manage our PPC, we need someoneto manage our SEO, but CRO
should be part of thatconversation, and it never is.
So, like when you're talking topeople, like how do you like
when you're looking at a side oridentify it, what are the like
top three things or whateverthat people go, oh, I probably
(28:08):
should be looking for CRO?
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think any website that has a
transactional component is acandidate for CRO, you know, or
not.
Um, so if whether that's a B2Bwebsite and your goal is lead
acquisition, or if it's ane-commerce site and your goal is
uh you know maximizing AOV orgetting people through the
(28:33):
checkout, um if you're asubscription site and you're
really looking to get thatrecurring, you know,
subscription uh revenuegenerated, anything where
there's a transactionalcomponent, which is the other
than informational websites orpotentially media websites, and
you know, a lot of mediawebsites have a subscription
(28:54):
component.
I mean, that is the vastmajority of websites out there.
SPEAKER_02 (28:59):
Yeah, uh, yeah, you're right.
On the on the on the pay or onthe um e-commerce side of
things, I I think it's a lotmore prevalent.
And I guess um from that side,we have kind of two sides of the
house.
And so I'm more on the B2B side.
Uh, so so that crossover is isnot as strong.
Certainly, I interviewed uhsomebody on the Google team
(29:22):
right before Google, and theybasically laid it out and said,
look, every website should havea cart of some kind, that's
where the future is going.
You need to have a transactionalcomponent on every website.
It shouldn't just be uh you knowa flyer, right, for your
business.
But there's a lot of um uh Iwould say um B2B businesses that
(29:46):
are quite complex in their uhsale.
Um and I think the sales teamdoesn't look at the marketing
team the with the same level,they like look at it from maybe
a brand standpoint or a you'rewe're going to a conference, we
need some graphic designstandpoint.
Like from a B2B standpoint, howwhat where would you categorize
(30:09):
CRO?
Like how would how would thoseconversations happen?
Because I mean, the website'scarrying a lot more weight these
days than give it to thesalesperson, have them call
because a lot of times peopledon't even want to answer the
phone until they know what whatthe agenda is and who you are,
and they're overloaded withother stuff.
So the website has to do theheavy lifting in the odd times
(30:32):
where people are going to dotheir own research and
definitely people are startingto ask the AI and are relying on
the AI for recommendations.
I think everybody's gonna havetheir own personal AI assistant
at at some point in the future.
Um, and so it's like, you know,I need to talk to the AI and
make sure that the AI uh knowswhat I do and how I do it.
(30:55):
And and then if someone's gonnaactually click on that, which is
a high value click because it'srecommended by the AI, um, like
I need to make it really easyfor them to take some kind of
action or or get to the nextstep in the customer journey.
SPEAKER_01 (31:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think this is oncertainly on the CMO's mind.
We have a person who is on ourboard of advisors who is the CMO
for one of the largest B2B SaaScompanies on the planet.
I won't I won't name them, butuh just to kind of protect her
confidentiality.
But uh, she was just at South bySouthwest and said that this,
(31:34):
you know, if if her peers, B2BCMOs, this is all they were
talking about, right?
This idea of not only this ideaof AI visibility and the fact
that everyone is doing researchfor providers through AI now,
and that's really how they'recoming to the site.
(31:54):
So how you're represented in AIand who gets recommended is of
paramount importance.
And then ultimately, this ideaof when you get to the website
of the companies that you'reresearching, is it validating
what the AI told you, right?
Is is your intent beingreinforced?
(32:16):
And then is it easy for the uhperson to get answers and also
easily get in touch with you?
And so I think that if you'rethinking about that customer
journey, um that is just soimportant because the you know,
an AI telling you, oh, well,here's the phone number of a
sales associate at you know, XYZcompany, like that's that's not
(32:41):
really happening, right?
They're gonna be sending you tothat website and you're armed
with some information ahead oftime.
You already have a notion ofwhat you want to accomplish and
and the type of solution thatyou're looking for.
And the job of that website isto really validate that and move
you to the next stage.
And so I think CRO is really oneof the ways that you can do
(33:06):
that, where you're making surethat the site is optimized and
you're seeing the maximumpotential for you to get that
information.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
So, so what I we probably should have done this
at the beginning of the podcast,but I would love to get your
definition today of what CRO isand what like encompasses it
today.
SPEAKER_01 (33:28):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I mean, I I look at CRO as Imentioned it earlier, things
like A-B testing, uh,multivariate testing, and
personalization, right?
But I think it's anywhere wherethere is sort of a scientific,
somewhat of a scientific rigorto the process where you can
(33:49):
validate statistically that thechanges that you're making to
the site are having are actuallymoving.
They're they're having asustained impact to the type of
conversion or transaction thatyou're trying to promote, right?
And so it's that sort ofscientific rigor that um comes
(34:09):
underneath it.
And I think you can you canobviously do that through A-B
testing and making sure that thevariant that you're testing is
statistically significant, butthere's other kinds of um ways
to do that and with otherchannels, right?
There's uh incrementality is ahuge thing in paid right now,
and we've built models around umbeing able to measure
(34:30):
incrementality uh in runningpaid campaigns.
So it really is another form ofbeing able to A-B test uh not
necessarily on the websiteitself, but a channel outside
the website to make sure thatyou have ad optimization
campaigns that ultimately sortof build the amount of traffic
that you're getting to thewebsite, which then of course
(34:51):
you're hoping to convert from.
SPEAKER_02 (34:53):
Yeah, let's um maybe share like a generalized case
study that uh everybody couldcould uh identify with of um you
know one of the one of thethings that you've done, you
have some great clients.
One of the things that you'vedone that everybody could go, oh
man, like this is why I shouldbe thinking about CRO.
SPEAKER_01 (35:16):
Yeah, I I think oftentimes we do we do get
called when clients say, Hey,our paid is underperforming,
right?
And they're either um they'reeither someone at an
organization who has familiaritywith crow and can be an internal
(35:36):
champion.
So where they've they've runcrow programs before and they
recognize the importance of itand the amount of ROI that you
can get from running asuccessful crow program, or
there's someone with thatchallenge of, hey, we're
spending all this money on adcampaigns and they're not
(35:57):
performing very well.
Um, and I think I could get alift through the website as a as
a part of that journey.
Uh, so really like help mefigure that piece out.
So a lot of times, you know, togive you go back to the case
study example, we've developedcrow programs that are almost
(36:17):
100% focused on the paidconverting the paid traffic,
right?
And so being able to look atthat customer journey of where
are they seeing the ads?
And you know, as you know, thethe customer journey is very
fragmented now.
You mean you might see somethingon Instagram, uh, scroll past
it, and then you know, you'rethinking about it a few days
(36:39):
later and you Google it, andthen an ad comes up for it, and
you click through on the ad.
And so that that click throughwasn't your first exposure to
it, right?
It was already that seed wasalready kind of planted in your
mind.
Um, and so it's really thinkingof that entire ecosystem of
like, how can we optimize forthat traffic coming from paid?
(37:00):
Um, and make sure that whenthey're coming to the site, that
experience is optimized and alsoreinforces like you are in the
right place, right?
That that um symmetrical sort ofmessaging between the ad
platforms and the destination.
SPEAKER_02 (37:18):
Yes, that has been like the words need to match for
the for the most part.
Yeah, it's a very simple thing,right?
SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
But people are amazed at like how uh uh
effective it is.
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
No, I mean there's trust.
Anytime you click to anotherwebsite or a subdomain, I mean,
the branding's got to be thesame.
Like you you lose a little bitof people every time uh you you
kind of you you click away fromstuff.
I I would love, I have one ortwo more questions for you
before we wrap up.
And I know that you have a lotof experience with Optimizely,
(37:50):
and I feel like we should givesome people maybe some
actionable steps that arelistening of something they
could do on their own.
And if they need heavy lifting,of course, reach out to Dave.
Um, but like what are somethings, basic things that people
maybe should be doing thatyou're surprised that they're
(38:11):
not doing?
Maybe, you know, one or twolittle tools that they can use
in the browser or plugins or youknow, on the back end of
WordPress to help them get alittle bit uh closer to
optimization.
SPEAKER_01 (38:26):
Yeah, I mean, I I think a lot of it does come down
to the size of yourorganization, the team that you
have, the resources that youhave available.
But really, if you're looking tokind of get something stood up
and doing it in a in a somewhatscrappy way, I mean, optimizely
is a great tool, um, but thereare other tools on the market
(38:47):
that are the barrier to entry isa little bit lower just in terms
of of cost, where you can startwith one of these, uh those
types of tools and then sort ofgraduate into the optimizely's
which provide a lot morefunctionality.
We use um post hog with some ofour clients, we use convert with
a lot of our clients.
Uh, some clients are on VWO.
(39:09):
Um, those are a little bit morelower cost, more entry-level
sort of tools that people canstand up.
And then I would say, you know,once you've got a tool in place,
like really just kind of startwith um with basic tests, right?
Like, don't try to plan outsomething that is kind of high
level of complexity oroverwhelming for the beginning,
(39:30):
or saying, like, yeah, I want tocompletely reimagine the
homepage, and we're gonna we'regonna have the control version
of our current homepage and acompletely reimagined homepage
for the variation.
We're gonna see how that does.
And it's like, well, you spentall this time building this new
homepage, and like, what if itloses, right?
So, like, start, you know,change your headline, right?
(39:50):
Like, change what your H1 says,change your CTAs, change what
your subheads say.
Think about how you'repositioning elements on the
page, what needs to be mostimportant uh top?
How are you incorporating thingslike social proof into your
pages, right?
What are those trust signals,those reinforcement signals that
when someone's there, they cansay, like, oh, yes, these this
(40:13):
company is credible.
They are trustworthy, right?
I want to take the next step.
Um, think about friction pointsin the user experience, right?
Are you are you making peopleclick through a bunch of things?
Are you do you have too manyelements on your forums?
Are you just asking for way toomuch information?
Um, so it's really kind of justthinking about like putting your
(40:34):
customer hat on, going throughyour website as a customer and
thinking like, if I was acustomer interested in my
product or service, how would Ibe interpreting this experience?
Right?
Would I be turned off at thispoint?
Um is this kind of hard toaccomplish sort of the task that
I want the user to take andreally think about it through
(40:56):
that lens and then come up witha bunch of simple tests.
SPEAKER_02 (40:59):
Dave, I I am surprised when I asked a similar
question to that of like gothrough your website as a
customer.
How many clients don't do thatenough?
You know, go through it and seeif you would buy from yourself,
right?
And that's like where you shouldstart.
Um, many times we'll like startoptimizing a website, and people
(41:20):
like, what is like, what is thiscontent?
I was like, that was on thepage, like that's what was
there, and all right, you know,so um, so so Dave, great, great
advice.
So is there anything part ofthis conversation?
Uh, and I definitely want you toum highlight ways to follow you,
ways to get in touch with you,uh CRO metrics doing some great
(41:42):
things.
Um, is there anything that weshould add to this discussion
that that we didn't cover today?
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Uh no, I think um I think this has been been been
great.
Um, you know, but I think a lotof kind of again, what I've
really been thinking about is iswhat I see so often is people
kind of having all of thesedisparate data sources, being
wanting to sort of tie all thatdata together.
(42:10):
So I do think like as we startedthe conversation, AI is a really
great way to be thinking aboutlike how you can sort of stitch
those things together throughvibe coding and apps and things
like that.
And that really, you know, kindof getting back to your question
of how to get started in curl.
I mean, that's another elementof it, right?
Is if you feel like you have agood data model, like that kind
(42:33):
of sets you up for that, thosenext steps.
Um, and so I think you know itsort of all ties together in
that way.
SPEAKER_02 (42:40):
Awesome.
And Dave, how do people find outmore of what you're working on
and what you're doing?
What are some good channels?
SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
Yeah, I mean, uh our website is uh chrometrics.com.
Um, so you know, feel free to tocheck us out there.
Um, you can find me on LinkedIn.
Uh my handle is David PaulAlbert on LinkedIn.
That's that's kind of prettymuch the only place I sort of
socialize.
I hang out and post things.
And so feel free to follow methere.
SPEAKER_02 (43:08):
Awesome.
Well, Dave, thank you uh so muchfor being on the show.
Uh, everyone, uh, until the nexttime, if you want to grow your
network or your business or yourbrand with the most powerful
tool on the planet, which I usedto say it was the internet, but
I think it's probably going tobe AI and AI agents.
Um, reach out tobestseopodcast.com.
(43:31):
We'll connect you uh with theright agency.
We focus mainly on CNIbusinesses over at EWR.
Dave's great for CRO andmetrics.
It depends what you need.
There's a flavor for everybodyout there.
There's a lot of need today.
So find someone you know,someone you trust.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
(43:52):
Bye bye for now.
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:17):
Howdy, welcome back to another Funfield episode of
The Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, Matthew Bertram.
I am excited to be on today.
There's a lot of thingshappening in the AI space.
It's moving very, very quickly.
Definitely with the AEO, GEO,SEO, LLM visibility, whatever
(00:39):
you want to call it.
There's a lot happening therewith uh AI systems as well as
search systems.
Uh, more than has happened inthe last 25 years.
And now, really, this is, Ithink, going to be the year of
agents.
And um, a lot of things arehappening where you're not just
using LLMs to ask questions too,you're actually using things
(01:02):
like Claud Code to actuallybuild things and do things.
And there's all kinds of toolsout there like Replit, and you
can add you can say a sentenceand it will build you a little
app or a widget.
And everybody's trying to decidewhether or not you're gonna
build something or buysomething.
What is the future of SaaS looklike?
And so I thought I would bringuh David Albert on from uh CMO
(01:25):
Metrics, who's kind ofstraddling that space.
He's dealing with the AI SEOcomponent as well as uh
conversion rate optimization,which is very adjacent to what's
going on uh in the SEO space.
I know he does some SEO as well.
Um, but really in thedevelopment space uh surrounding
(01:45):
um, should you should you buildyour own tools or should you pay
a bunch of software?
So, Dave, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
Hey Matthew, great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
I love that you're outside.
So everybody you can kind ofhear some birds chirping.
The weather is good in someplaces, uh, and uh uh excited to
um just kind of have adiscussion with a longtime
agency owner of all the kind ofthings that are going through
our head.
It's it's every you know, everymonth uh it the landscape
(02:17):
changes.
So I'm curious uh what's on yourradar?
What are what are you lookingat?
What's happening in uh from yourstandpoint?
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Yeah, I think the uh the interesting questions that
we're grappling with nowadays,especially as we're we're
working with clients and even onour own business, is this idea
of like you said, now that wehave sort of clawed code
entering the picture and a lotof these LLMs and really what AI
and AI agents are enabling, isyou know, the old world was like
(02:49):
bio bloated stack and acceptsort of the fragmentation
between your systems or work onthat fragmentation with the
systems.
The new world seems to be AIbeing able to make custom
building far more realistic, uh,and the time that you can sort
of get to market on those thingsis is just so rapid.
(03:10):
And so it really gets down tothat that answer of you know,
thinking about it from the pointof view of building selectively
and then buying strategically,which is a new paradigm that I
think that a lot of marketersreally haven't been used to.
You know, we've inherited kindof a lot of these systems, we
know that they don't talk toeach other.
(03:31):
I don't know how manyconversations I've had over the
years uh where the number onecomplaint I get from clients is,
you know, we have all this dataand all the data is living in
silos, and we need to figure outhow to kind of unify all this
data.
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
Yeah, no, I think MPC servers and kind of
connecting everything togetherwith Claude Skills is really um
helping change that paradigm, asyou you say.
Um in that conversation, some ofthe conversation I've had with a
number of clients is well, is itcommercially ready?
(04:06):
Right.
So, like a lot of people arebuilding tools, and if you're
using it for internal use,that's one thing.
But if you have high throughputand you're you're adding a lot
of customer count, um, there's alot of kind of compliance
components, there's a lot ofthings to think about.
And so a lot of people arethrowing together an app or uh a
piece of software, and thenclients are getting really
(04:28):
excited and are wanting to go tomarket with this, and then
traditional developers are like,whoa, slow down.
And then you have arguments likeuh like base 44.
We've been using base 44 a lot,which Wix bought it.
And um, you know, I think thatthose are going to talk
together.
I think even like Mantis uh froman ad standpoint is really
(04:49):
interesting.
We've been asking it somequestions related to Facebook
ads, and so like there's thismerger of a lot of these
systems, and it's really likewell, it's materially better
than it was six months ago.
And, you know, I can't remember.
Uh I haven't done a podcast forabout two weeks, but Claude Code
took over um the world, right?
(05:11):
And then Chat GPT sucked thatup.
And, you know, okay, Maltbot andeverything else, if you're
following the space closely, uh,you know, we got a Mac mini
going, right?
And now we're using some VPSsand we're building some
different things, but you know,the development team's like,
okay, slow down.
Um, and clients are pushingpretty hard to say, okay, this
(05:35):
is possible, just make ithappen.
And connecting all the pipes onthe back end, making sure that
stuff's not breaking.
I I feel like it's movingincredibly fast.
And we want to kind of pump thebrakes from a risk standpoint
and saying customer data andwhere is the stuff being
processed, and you know, likelike, do you need to build a
(05:55):
model internally?
And these are all questions thattraditional marketers have not
dealt with in the merger of um,you know, uh programmers and
like content and SEO people,it's kind of all being blended
together of what's possible.
And so, like, how I know I threwa lot at you there, but like
really the buyer build, where'sthe line for you on what's
(06:19):
commercially ready and like whatyou should just maybe keep
in-house for customizations?
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
Yeah, I think that's a that's a great topic.
And you know, obviously, you'renot going to want to replace
your core systems, right?
I mean, to say, oh, we're gonnavibe code our web analytics app
and replace, you know, Amplitudeor GA4 or something like that,
like certainly I don't thinkthose things are wise or uh um
(06:48):
areas that that folks should bereally be pursuing.
I mean, if it's core to yourbusiness, it's a core platform,
you know, the idea is that's notright for replacement.
I think a lot of what thetechnologies are offering us
right now is things to beaugmentitative to what we're
doing, right?
It is it is that ability to kindof stitch those systems together
(07:12):
to like be that middleware andalso be those little utilitarian
tools or plugs that can kind ofcome in and help solve some
novel problems.
And I almost look at it, youknow, from a governance
standpoint, yeah.
Totally understand what you'resaying, you know, where there's
a concern about security and whohas access to these things and
(07:33):
like what are they doing tothese systems?
And the way that I'm thinkingabout it, the way that we're
trying to do it within ourorganization is to really sort
of democratize this with someguardrails.
And so an example of that is werolled out um like a boilerplate
to being able to do apps, and sothat boilerplate uh has some
(07:58):
security guardrails in it, ithas some direction around how
things should be coded, it haseven some like UX UI
considerations and stuff likethat.
And so as long as people arefollowing the boilerplate, then
we know some guardrails arebeing followed, but we it at the
same time opens up thatdemocratization of being able to
(08:20):
buy code, right?
I almost look at it as like anew spreadsheet in a way,
because it's like, well, youwouldn't tell anybody, oh, whoa,
whoa, whoa, don't create aspreadsheet, right?
Like, what are you doing?
That's dangerous.
Um, and it's and you alsowouldn't worry about how many
spreadsheets people arecreating.
It's like we all have abazillion spreadsheets.
So to me, it's like, well, thisis sort of the next level.
(08:43):
A lot of this mod coding is thenext level, just doing
spreadsheets, right?
It's like I want to be able tosolve something that maybe I
would have used a spreadsheetfor in the past, but now I can
describe it to an LLM and itcreates a much more
multifunctional version ofsomething that would have just
been a pain to try to recreatewith other software before.
SPEAKER_02 (09:06):
Man, I have three quick things to respond on that.
First is I definitely haveclients that have vibe coded
their own kind of GA4replacement.
And um that that has been aninteresting conversation of
like, this is how we're trackingnow, and this is the data that
we're using.
I'm like, well, let's, you know,and you're talking about
(09:27):
websites, right, that are thatare built completely outside of
a a known framework, right?
It's just completely HTML code,um, which which has been an
interesting conversation.
Specifically, the kind of umbringing everything together
component under one roof, Ithink is the core problem that
(09:48):
marketers need to solve.
And I went through like anexecutive um program through
Harvard that that was kind ofthe core issue that they were
trying to solve.
So I think a lot of businessesare trying to figure out
cleaning up that data, LOMs, itdoesn't have to be that clean.
Okay, we can move a little bitquicker.
And so a lot of the data sciencestuff got slowed down uh when
(10:09):
everybody's still cleaning updata.
But now where are thehallucination hallucinizations
coming from?
Well, maybe we need to uh have alittle bit more grounding.
Um, but I think that that's likethe key topic.
And then from the guardrailstandpoint, I can tell you to
your point, um, to expand uponthat a little bit.
I I mean, my team was trying outa lot of different tools, and I
(10:32):
was like, wait before you givethat tool, whoever that is,
whoever just stood that up,access to like all our Google
Drive, all our emails, likeeverything that we have, because
you don't know where it's beingprocessed, who's ingesting it,
what are you know, what aretheir terms of service.
And and I think that once thatinformation, like shadow AI,
(10:55):
gets out there from a publiclytraded company or you know, uh
proprietary data how to dostuff, like once it gets into
the LMs, I mean, I'm not surehow you get it back.
Like, I'm not sure.
Like, if you're it okay, you'veclicked the button, don't train
the model.
I'm not sure.
Like, I don't know how some ofthese LMs process information,
(11:17):
um, you know, what where thoselines exactly are on the terms
of service.
We're trying to really dig intothat.
But like once that informationgets out there to a public LM
and it gets updated and you'veadded proprietary information or
you know, whatever out there, Idon't know how you take that
back.
And I feel like that's a realconcern um for for a lot of
(11:39):
people.
And you know, I feel like evenyour prompts, like your prompt
library, is starting to become,you know, potentially uh um you
know, IP to a certain degree.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, and it you know, it'sjust getting worsened with um, I
think you mentioned it earlier,like releases like open claw,
where you know, kind ofintroducing this massive sort of
security risk.
And uh, if you saw recentlyNVIDIA release their own sort of
version of OpenClaw, becausethey're really security, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
That that was cool.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, and and it's interestingto see uh, you know, obviously
it serves the best interest ofNVIDIA to release something like
that, but at the same time,they're recognizing that, like,
oh, this is the future, right?
This is how companies are goingto operate, this is how they're
going to do business, and weneed to figure out a way to make
this safe for organizations.
(12:36):
Uh, because I can only imagine,you know, the governance teams
and the scrambling that thelarger enterprise companies are
grappling with right now, withall of the concerns you've just
mentioned.
Um, I think it's easier,obviously, for smaller
organizations, smaller firms toact a little bit more
entrepreneurial with this stuff,take a little bit more risk.
(12:58):
But yeah, your concerns areabsolutely valid in terms of
once something gets out there,you know, it's out.
There, it's Pandora's box, youreally can't close it back up.
SPEAKER_02 (13:08):
Yeah, no, so so okay, let's go back to like um,
you know, uh agencies, because alot of people that are listening
are at agencies and they'retrying to figure out um how all
this fits together.
And if you're listening and youfeel like you're behind, you
are.
Um uh, you know, basically it'smoving really, really quickly.
(13:31):
And so if you're starting tobuild custom GPTs, that's great,
and you should be doing that,but that is from a research
mode, not from a do mode.
So there's gonna be this agenteconomy, I believe.
And I I was involved in cryptoand I think they're kind of
merging, like frontiertechnologies are coming
together.
And even I don't know if it wasMcKenzie or who released a
(13:52):
report saying last year was theyear of the agents, and I think
this year with OpenClaw kind ofkicked it off.
And now we're we're starting tosee digital teams being set up,
people integrating this stuff.
And I mean, once a company getsAI enabled or AI first and
starts to move, that gap's gonnaget widened and widened and
(14:16):
widened.
And so I think you really needto stay on top of what's
happening.
I think where you where we weretalking about in the beginning,
can you build your own tools soyou don't have this massive
bloat in tech?
And a lot of times people arepaying a lot of money for models
or sorry, SaaS products, andthey're only using a component
of it, right?
(14:36):
And they're like, and it's notworking for exactly what I want.
And so I feel like there's thisopportunity to customize and
build what you need for yourworkflows in a way that that
really benefits what you'retrying to do.
Like, I would love to hear kindof maybe some of the the just
(14:57):
high-level stuff from a CROstandpoint of some of the maybe
the full first tools that youwere like, man, someone's not
doing this.
We have this internalcapability, like, let's build
this tool that does this thing.
And I saw on your site too thatyou've started to trademark some
stuff.
And I'm just kind of curious,okay, like when you started to
wrap your head around this andyou said I can apply this to our
(15:20):
business, where you went tofirst.
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
Yeah, I think on the CRO standpoint, well, to just to
take a step back, I think whereagencies should be thinking
about this is really in terms oflike first and foremost, what
sort of proprietary data do youhave access to, right?
How can you leverage that dataand how can you get your
(15:46):
back-end systems in a placewhere you can sort of put AI on
top of that data to reallymaximize its use?
And so, an example from ourbusiness is we've been around
for you know 15 years now, andwe've run thousands and
thousands of experiments for ourclients.
(16:06):
So you can imagine A-B tests,multivariate tests,
personalization campaigns, allthat good stuff.
We uh have the foresight to keepall of that stuff into a in a
database.
So we've been collecting all ofthese experiments and all that
data in a database for years,and so we we realized at some
point, hey, wow, we're sittingon this mound of really great
(16:29):
A-B testing data.
Yeah, and so could we put AI infront of this?
And you know, we kind of startedwhere everybody else is is kind
of doing it with these things,is it's like, okay, well, let's
set up a rag system first,right?
So, you know, if you havequestions about past experiments
or kind of what's worked forother clients or verticals or
different things like that, wecan enable chat so you can ask
(16:52):
questions about the data.
But then we sort of quicklypivoted to this idea of like,
could we use AI and machinelearning to train a model on
this data to then predict thefuture success of new
experiments, right?
Um, so just kind of using priorsto do that, and we found that we
(17:12):
we we were able to train a modelon that that both looks at a
predictive analysis of of thelikelihood of the test winning,
but then also like what is thegoing to be the projected impact
of that test.
And so it sort of takes thosetwo dimensions, marries them
together, and sort of gives youa score of whether you should
consider running that test ornot.
(17:33):
We call that impact lens.
And we knew that the efficacy ofthat was going to be a
longitudinal study, right?
Because you roll something likethat out, and it's like, well,
you gotta run experiments, youhave to bring them to
statistical significance.
Like, this is gonna take a whileto get a number of experiments
in the hopper that we've scoredusing these algorithms to say
(17:55):
whether or not this works.
And we did find interestinglythat over time we actually saw
not only the predictions matchwith reality, but that the
efficacy of the tool kind ofincreased the more data that we
were able to learn and train onit over time.
(18:15):
So that's just one example.
I mean, the the advice I wouldgive agencies is really start
with like looking at hey, do youhave data that you're sitting on
that could be useful?
And think about creative waysthat you could leverage that
data.
It could be re you know, uh theability to do client research
for clients, competitiveanalysis, or uh research that
(18:37):
you could then use to createunique differentiating
strategies.
You know, there's kind of allkinds of things to be thinking
about with this.
SPEAKER_02 (18:45):
I I love that.
There's there's another tool outthere.
Um, I'll I'll give it to youafter after this call, but
essentially I think someone setup, I think it was like 10,000
uh like profiles, right?
All different like people, andyou can then take that the the
the thought or the thing thatyou want to test, right?
(19:05):
The hypothesis, throw it intothat, and then see how they talk
to each other, how they connect,and and kind of see what happens
to the model.
I think taking that datacombined with like what you have
uh give could give you like aeven fuller picture of that
impact.
Because I think that a lot ofpeople are gonna want to say,
(19:26):
well, what is the synthetic testor what does the model say
before we spend a dollar on ads?
Right.
Like I like from an adstandpoint, you're starting to
be able to create the tools,they are amazing on like you
could take a product and youcould create all these different
um ads uh in differentplacements, do the all these
different things.
And now you can like run thattest to say, okay, like what
(19:49):
what is the what is thelikelihood or variance that we
think we're gonna get with this?
And that's something I thinkthat the business side um uh of
of companies wanna wanna seewhen they look at marketing.
So it's not as soft, but it'sreally like you know, here's
that investment of what it'sgonna do.
And so it's something tangible.
(20:10):
And I think that that's why ifyou even say SEO versus paid
ads, is why paid ads tends toget more budget because it's
more concrete on what the outputis and where those influences
impact.
I mean, have you like how do youview it when you're looking at
data sets and you're runningtests?
Like, have you I I I you knowpaid ads is you set up the test,
(20:34):
you run it, but like when you'redoing CRO testing, um, how do
you look at the comparisonbetween paid ads and SEO?
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Yeah, great question.
I mean, I I think that they allwhat we try to promote is they
really all work symmetricallytogether, right?
I mean, the idea is that youwant to drive traffic to the
website and you ultimately wantthat traffic to convert.
And so obviously, SEO is and andAI visibility is going to help
(21:06):
get that qualified traffic intothe website.
Paid ads are going to get thattraffic into the website, and
then once they're on thatwebsite, what is that optimal
user experience that gets themto convert?
And so we're trying to make surethat kind of all of those things
converge in a way.
And I do think that we're goingto see kind of a wave of
(21:28):
predictive analysis hit us.
You know, if this year is theyear of the agents, I mean maybe
next year is the year ofpredictive analysis.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
Who knows?
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
Totally.
And so I, you know, I couldreally see a world in which
we're seeing more predictiveanalysis with paid ads and the
propensity for a paid ad to besuccessful.
I could see that with SEO aswell.
I could see uh, you know, a lotof these AI visibility tools now
are providing recommendations asto specifically like, you know,
(21:58):
we this is all the things thatwe found.
This is how we cited it.
Here's what to go do about it.
And it would be interesting tosee some predictive modeling go
into some of those tools to sortof stack rank that stuff, right?
Uh, rather than um, I mean, I'mI want to use the word
arbitrary.
I don't think it's it's beingrecommended arbitrarily, but
(22:18):
really like, is there some sortof algorithm or methodology to
what's being suggested and thelikelihood it has of being
successful relative to thatsuggestion?
Right.
And getting back to what you'retalking about with some of the
simulation stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
So, so the LLM TXT file, right?
Txt file, right, right?
Like there's a big debate onwhether or not that that's
useful.
None of the models have saidthat they look at it, but
there's probably a highlikelihood they do, and there's
a less high likelihood thatthey'll tell us.
Um, and so like thatrecommendation's being pushed
(22:53):
out there, but there's noconcrete data one way or another
of like what's going to happenwith that.
Uh, one of the things I thinkthat's real tangible that I feel
like is important from a CROstandpoint, right?
So people talk about SEO, butwhen I have companies approach
from a lead gen standpoint froman SEO, they're not asking for
rankings.
(23:14):
They're not, they're asking forleads, they're asking for new
business.
And and that's like the fullpackage.
And so a lot of times when we'retalking to clients, we say,
well, you got SEO.
Well, then we need to transferover to CRO at a certain point.
Once we get enough traffic, weneed to start doing CRO.
Now with AI overviews and LLMvisibility and all this kind of
(23:35):
stuff, like you don't get asmuch traffic to your website.
So you really need to focus onthat transactional component of
getting them to click andgetting them to your website.
And I feel like CRO, like ifthey were 50-50, let's just say
CRO is now 75-25 because youknow, you're getting one and
(23:56):
one.
Well, let's just say you'regetting 25% of the traffic.
I'm just, you know, I'm youknow, I'm I'm just arbitrarily
picking a number here, but I'msaying you're getting 25% of the
traffic you were getting before,or a third, let's say a third.
People can go with that.
You're getting a third of thetraffic you were getting before.
Now, once they're on your site,they're like, that's gold,
right?
(24:16):
You're like, what are they doingonce they're on their site?
Let's look at the heat mapping,let's look at the flow.
GA4 actually has a lot of waysto see stuff that I think that I
would encourage people to go umget get re-educated on GA4
because they've there's a lot ofdata in there.
It's just kind of hidden, it'skind of in a different spot, but
you can see the funnel movementof what people are doing, but
(24:40):
it's all CRO.
It's like we got this personhere, they're probably ready to
buy, they've came through atransactional click.
Okay, now they're gonna buy hereor they're in the comparison
phase.
Like we got to capture them now.
And you know, there's there'stools that that you know help
you uh get some additionalinsights, but I feel like a lot
(25:03):
of websites we've been seeingrecently and a lot of clients
that come to us, CRO is not whatthey're asking for.
It's not what's on their radar,and it's probably the most
important thing that they shouldbe doing.
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we we've been preachingthat for years, even before AI
was a thing, right?
Uh, you know, if you looked atthe studies, it was like this is
one of the highest ROI thingsthat you can be doing that is
not a massive investmentrelative to other things that
you're pouring money into,right?
People pouring money intoobviously running paid ads, it's
(25:40):
one of the most expensive thingsyou can do.
And then even a lot of theinvestments from uh the
standpoint of datainfrastructure and the Martech
stack and all the sort of dataengineering that people are
pursuing to kind of, like I saidat the beginning, stitch all
these systems together.
And you look at all of thoseinvestments relative to what
people are actually investing inconversion rate optimization,
(26:04):
and it's like, you know, the thecurrow optimization piece is
minuscule compared to that.
And it's like, yeah, but this islike one of the highest leverage
things that you could be doing.
And so I think a lot of it comesdown to um, I don't know if it's
just not as sexy of an area assome of these other ones, or
it's just people look at it assomething that's harder to do
(26:24):
than some of these other ones,but it's it's always kind of
been interesting to us beingmostly a crow firm of the sort
of you know, kind of prevailingum perception out there of crow
and and really what peopleshould be investing in.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
Well, to your point, if you're looking at customer
acquisition costs, right, andyou're spending a bunch of paid
ads, and you know, a lot ofpeople just like to throw more
money at it and and go, okay,well, this is how much people
we're getting through ourfunnel.
So let's just throw more moneyat it and we'll get more people
through it.
It's like, well, what what iswhat is your benchmark versus
(27:01):
competitors or the industry?
And go, like, how leaky is yourfunnel?
Why don't we uh spend the sameamount or spend less and convert
at a lower rate?
Um, and then and then you youmaximize and and get that
leverage.
I'm curious, um, when you lookat a client or your team's
prospecting or whatever, what islike the identifiers that people
(27:25):
are listening that hey, I mightneed CRO?
Because I I feel like it ithasn't been enough on people's
radar to know they need it.
I mean, no one calls me, and youknow, um, and I'm just we're
just one agency, so you know,but no one calls me going, I
need a CRO.
Like they might need it, it'svery clear that they need it,
(27:47):
but they're just like I needmore leads, we need someone to
manage our PPC, we need someoneto manage our SEO, but CRO
should be part of thatconversation, and it never is.
So, like when you're talking topeople, like how do you like
when you're looking at a side oridentify it, what are the like
top three things or whateverthat people go, oh, I probably
(28:08):
should be looking for CRO?
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think any website that has a
transactional component is acandidate for CRO, you know, or
not.
Um, so if whether that's a B2Bwebsite and your goal is lead
acquisition, or if it's ane-commerce site and your goal is
uh you know maximizing AOV orgetting people through the
(28:33):
checkout, um if you're asubscription site and you're
really looking to get thatrecurring, you know,
subscription uh revenuegenerated, anything where
there's a transactionalcomponent, which is the other
than informational websites orpotentially media websites, and
you know, a lot of mediawebsites have a subscription
(28:54):
component.
I mean, that is the vastmajority of websites out there.
SPEAKER_02 (28:59):
Yeah, uh, yeah, you're right.
On the on the on the pay or onthe um e-commerce side of
things, I I think it's a lotmore prevalent.
And I guess um from that side,we have kind of two sides of the
house.
And so I'm more on the B2B side.
Uh, so so that crossover is isnot as strong.
Certainly, I interviewed uhsomebody on the Google team
(29:22):
right before Google, and theybasically laid it out and said,
look, every website should havea cart of some kind, that's
where the future is going.
You need to have a transactionalcomponent on every website.
It shouldn't just be uh you knowa flyer, right, for your
business.
But there's a lot of um uh Iwould say um B2B businesses that
(29:46):
are quite complex in their uhsale.
Um and I think the sales teamdoesn't look at the marketing
team the with the same level,they like look at it from maybe
a brand standpoint or a you'rewe're going to a conference, we
need some graphic designstandpoint.
Like from a B2B standpoint, howwhat where would you categorize
(30:09):
CRO?
Like how would how would thoseconversations happen?
Because I mean, the website'scarrying a lot more weight these
days than give it to thesalesperson, have them call
because a lot of times peopledon't even want to answer the
phone until they know what whatthe agenda is and who you are,
and they're overloaded withother stuff.
So the website has to do theheavy lifting in the odd times
(30:32):
where people are going to dotheir own research and
definitely people are startingto ask the AI and are relying on
the AI for recommendations.
I think everybody's gonna havetheir own personal AI assistant
at at some point in the future.
Um, and so it's like, you know,I need to talk to the AI and
make sure that the AI uh knowswhat I do and how I do it.
(30:55):
And and then if someone's gonnaactually click on that, which is
a high value click because it'srecommended by the AI, um, like
I need to make it really easyfor them to take some kind of
action or or get to the nextstep in the customer journey.
SPEAKER_01 (31:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think this is oncertainly on the CMO's mind.
We have a person who is on ourboard of advisors who is the CMO
for one of the largest B2B SaaScompanies on the planet.
I won't I won't name them, butuh just to kind of protect her
confidentiality.
But uh, she was just at South bySouthwest and said that this,
(31:34):
you know, if if her peers, B2BCMOs, this is all they were
talking about, right?
This idea of not only this ideaof AI visibility and the fact
that everyone is doing researchfor providers through AI now,
and that's really how they'recoming to the site.
(31:54):
So how you're represented in AIand who gets recommended is of
paramount importance.
And then ultimately, this ideaof when you get to the website
of the companies that you'reresearching, is it validating
what the AI told you, right?
Is is your intent beingreinforced?
(32:16):
And then is it easy for the uhperson to get answers and also
easily get in touch with you?
And so I think that if you'rethinking about that customer
journey, um that is just soimportant because the you know,
an AI telling you, oh, well,here's the phone number of a
sales associate at you know, XYZcompany, like that's that's not
(32:41):
really happening, right?
They're gonna be sending you tothat website and you're armed
with some information ahead oftime.
You already have a notion ofwhat you want to accomplish and
and the type of solution thatyou're looking for.
And the job of that website isto really validate that and move
you to the next stage.
And so I think CRO is really oneof the ways that you can do
(33:06):
that, where you're making surethat the site is optimized and
you're seeing the maximumpotential for you to get that
information.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
So, so what I we probably should have done this
at the beginning of the podcast,but I would love to get your
definition today of what CRO isand what like encompasses it
today.
SPEAKER_01 (33:28):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I mean, I I look at CRO as Imentioned it earlier, things
like A-B testing, uh,multivariate testing, and
personalization, right?
But I think it's anywhere wherethere is sort of a scientific,
somewhat of a scientific rigorto the process where you can
(33:49):
validate statistically that thechanges that you're making to
the site are having are actuallymoving.
They're they're having asustained impact to the type of
conversion or transaction thatyou're trying to promote, right?
And so it's that sort ofscientific rigor that um comes
(34:09):
underneath it.
And I think you can you canobviously do that through A-B
testing and making sure that thevariant that you're testing is
statistically significant, butthere's other kinds of um ways
to do that and with otherchannels, right?
There's uh incrementality is ahuge thing in paid right now,
and we've built models around umbeing able to measure
(34:30):
incrementality uh in runningpaid campaigns.
So it really is another form ofbeing able to A-B test uh not
necessarily on the websiteitself, but a channel outside
the website to make sure thatyou have ad optimization
campaigns that ultimately sortof build the amount of traffic
that you're getting to thewebsite, which then of course
(34:51):
you're hoping to convert from.
SPEAKER_02 (34:53):
Yeah, let's um maybe share like a generalized case
study that uh everybody couldcould uh identify with of um you
know one of the one of thethings that you've done, you
have some great clients.
One of the things that you'vedone that everybody could go, oh
man, like this is why I shouldbe thinking about CRO.
SPEAKER_01 (35:16):
Yeah, I I think oftentimes we do we do get
called when clients say, Hey,our paid is underperforming,
right?
And they're either um they'reeither someone at an
organization who has familiaritywith crow and can be an internal
(35:36):
champion.
So where they've they've runcrow programs before and they
recognize the importance of itand the amount of ROI that you
can get from running asuccessful crow program, or
there's someone with thatchallenge of, hey, we're
spending all this money on adcampaigns and they're not
(35:57):
performing very well.
Um, and I think I could get alift through the website as a as
a part of that journey.
Uh, so really like help mefigure that piece out.
So a lot of times, you know, togive you go back to the case
study example, we've developedcrow programs that are almost
(36:17):
100% focused on the paidconverting the paid traffic,
right?
And so being able to look atthat customer journey of where
are they seeing the ads?
And you know, as you know, thethe customer journey is very
fragmented now.
You mean you might see somethingon Instagram, uh, scroll past
it, and then you know, you'rethinking about it a few days
(36:39):
later and you Google it, andthen an ad comes up for it, and
you click through on the ad.
And so that that click throughwasn't your first exposure to
it, right?
It was already that seed wasalready kind of planted in your
mind.
Um, and so it's really thinkingof that entire ecosystem of
like, how can we optimize forthat traffic coming from paid?
(37:00):
Um, and make sure that whenthey're coming to the site, that
experience is optimized and alsoreinforces like you are in the
right place, right?
That that um symmetrical sort ofmessaging between the ad
platforms and the destination.
SPEAKER_02 (37:18):
Yes, that has been like the words need to match for
the for the most part.
Yeah, it's a very simple thing,right?
SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
But people are amazed at like how uh uh
effective it is.
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
No, I mean there's trust.
Anytime you click to anotherwebsite or a subdomain, I mean,
the branding's got to be thesame.
Like you you lose a little bitof people every time uh you you
kind of you you click away fromstuff.
I I would love, I have one ortwo more questions for you
before we wrap up.
And I know that you have a lotof experience with Optimizely,
(37:50):
and I feel like we should givesome people maybe some
actionable steps that arelistening of something they
could do on their own.
And if they need heavy lifting,of course, reach out to Dave.
Um, but like what are somethings, basic things that people
maybe should be doing thatyou're surprised that they're
(38:11):
not doing?
Maybe, you know, one or twolittle tools that they can use
in the browser or plugins or youknow, on the back end of
WordPress to help them get alittle bit uh closer to
optimization.
SPEAKER_01 (38:26):
Yeah, I mean, I I think a lot of it does come down
to the size of yourorganization, the team that you
have, the resources that youhave available.
But really, if you're looking tokind of get something stood up
and doing it in a in a somewhatscrappy way, I mean, optimizely
is a great tool, um, but thereare other tools on the market
(38:47):
that are the barrier to entry isa little bit lower just in terms
of of cost, where you can startwith one of these, uh those
types of tools and then sort ofgraduate into the optimizely's
which provide a lot morefunctionality.
We use um post hog with some ofour clients, we use convert with
a lot of our clients.
Uh, some clients are on VWO.
(39:09):
Um, those are a little bit morelower cost, more entry-level
sort of tools that people canstand up.
And then I would say, you know,once you've got a tool in place,
like really just kind of startwith um with basic tests, right?
Like, don't try to plan outsomething that is kind of high
level of complexity oroverwhelming for the beginning,
(39:30):
or saying, like, yeah, I want tocompletely reimagine the
homepage, and we're gonna we'regonna have the control version
of our current homepage and acompletely reimagined homepage
for the variation.
We're gonna see how that does.
And it's like, well, you spentall this time building this new
homepage, and like, what if itloses, right?
So, like, start, you know,change your headline, right?
(39:50):
Like, change what your H1 says,change your CTAs, change what
your subheads say.
Think about how you'repositioning elements on the
page, what needs to be mostimportant uh top?
How are you incorporating thingslike social proof into your
pages, right?
What are those trust signals,those reinforcement signals that
when someone's there, they cansay, like, oh, yes, these this
(40:13):
company is credible.
They are trustworthy, right?
I want to take the next step.
Um, think about friction pointsin the user experience, right?
Are you are you making peopleclick through a bunch of things?
Are you do you have too manyelements on your forums?
Are you just asking for way toomuch information?
Um, so it's really kind of justthinking about like putting your
(40:34):
customer hat on, going throughyour website as a customer and
thinking like, if I was acustomer interested in my
product or service, how would Ibe interpreting this experience?
Right?
Would I be turned off at thispoint?
Um is this kind of hard toaccomplish sort of the task that
I want the user to take andreally think about it through
(40:56):
that lens and then come up witha bunch of simple tests.
SPEAKER_02 (40:59):
Dave, I I am surprised when I asked a similar
question to that of like gothrough your website as a
customer.
How many clients don't do thatenough?
You know, go through it and seeif you would buy from yourself,
right?
And that's like where you shouldstart.
Um, many times we'll like startoptimizing a website, and people
(41:20):
like, what is like, what is thiscontent?
I was like, that was on thepage, like that's what was
there, and all right, you know,so um, so so Dave, great, great
advice.
So is there anything part ofthis conversation?
Uh, and I definitely want you toum highlight ways to follow you,
ways to get in touch with you,uh CRO metrics doing some great
(41:42):
things.
Um, is there anything that weshould add to this discussion
that that we didn't cover today?
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Uh no, I think um I think this has been been been
great.
Um, you know, but I think a lotof kind of again, what I've
really been thinking about is iswhat I see so often is people
kind of having all of thesedisparate data sources, being
wanting to sort of tie all thatdata together.
(42:10):
So I do think like as we startedthe conversation, AI is a really
great way to be thinking aboutlike how you can sort of stitch
those things together throughvibe coding and apps and things
like that.
And that really, you know, kindof getting back to your question
of how to get started in curl.
I mean, that's another elementof it, right?
Is if you feel like you have agood data model, like that kind
(42:33):
of sets you up for that, thosenext steps.
Um, and so I think you know itsort of all ties together in
that way.
SPEAKER_02 (42:40):
Awesome.
And Dave, how do people find outmore of what you're working on
and what you're doing?
What are some good channels?
SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
Yeah, I mean, uh our website is uh chrometrics.com.
Um, so you know, feel free to tocheck us out there.
Um, you can find me on LinkedIn.
Uh my handle is David PaulAlbert on LinkedIn.
That's that's kind of prettymuch the only place I sort of
socialize.
I hang out and post things.
And so feel free to follow methere.
SPEAKER_02 (43:08):
Awesome.
Well, Dave, thank you uh so muchfor being on the show.
Uh, everyone, uh, until the nexttime, if you want to grow your
network or your business or yourbrand with the most powerful
tool on the planet, which I usedto say it was the internet, but
I think it's probably going tobe AI and AI agents.
Um, reach out tobestseopodcast.com.
(43:31):
We'll connect you uh with theright agency.
We focus mainly on CNIbusinesses over at EWR.
Dave's great for CRO andmetrics.
It depends what you need.
There's a flavor for everybodyout there.
There's a lot of need today.
So find someone you know,someone you trust.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
(43:52):
Bye bye for now.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.