Traffic Times Conversion Equals Customers With Irwin Hau

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crunch the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.

SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Best SEO podcast,
The Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your guest host, JeffCampbell, hosting here for the
first time today, as Matt is outof town traveling.
He'll be back soon.
I've got with me today ErwinHowe, who runs an agency down in
Melbourne, Australia.

SPEAKER_02 (00:34):
Hey, how are you going from Melbourne, Australia?
How's things?

SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Excellent, excellent.
So, Erwin, you've been runningChromatics is the name of your
agency for 12 plus years.
You've racked up something northof 80 awards.
What does award-mittingaward-winning actually mean in
for a digital agency in terms ofyour ability?
Is this reflective of yourability to deliver results for
your clients?

SPEAKER_02 (00:57):
Yeah, 100%.
Uh well, it's actually been uh17.
I actually just did the, I wastalking to someone.
Um, 17.
I didn't realize, no, no, we yousaid 12 plus, so 17 because it's
the spot.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
Well, 12, yeah, yeah, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:11):
Um, I think award winning is on a couple levels.
Number one, look and feel.
I think when it comes to design,you know, there's a visual UI
side of things.
But I think what's moreimportant is actually that UX
and like you said, the resultsside of things, like conversion,
really, at the end of the day,from what we do, because we
specialize in that and reallyunderstanding human behavior and
human psychology.
Because uh, yeah, if you can'tmake this one maths formula

(01:33):
work, what are you doing?
And that formula is traffictimes conversion rate equals
customers.
And let's be honest, uh, peopledon't wake up going, oh, I want
new rankings.
They wake up going, hey, I wantmore sales, uh, I want more
phone calls, uh, more leads.
Yeah, that's all we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Results, results is uh the objective, that's the
business goal.
100%.
Yeah, uh, you know, we weretalking before we got on the
podcast about how I was acustomer of EWR and a listener
to this podcast, so it's kind ofcool to be hosting the podcast
for the first time now.
But um, EWR, uh, our previousname of our company was eWeb

(02:09):
results, and that as a customerreally appealed to me.
Like I'm I'm here to getresults, that's why I'm hiring a
marketing company.
Um you said there's no manual,you said in your your comments
there's no manual for running abusiness.
What's the one mistake you seethat agency owners make that you
had to learn the hard wayyourself?

SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Oh man, I there are so many uh angles, but uh to me,
if you don't practice what youpreach, so the the thing I heard
the web agencies say is thatI've got a bad website.
Oh, don't look at my website,but I'm gonna do some great work
for you, right?
That doesn't make sense, youknow.
Your website is a reflection ofyour own work, and so if you

(02:50):
can't even do it for yourself, Idon't care what you say, you
know, seeing is believing, andso just make sure you get
yourself right, make sure you'representing yourself well, make
sure you spend your timeinvesting into your, you know,
your your first impression, aswe say.

SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Yeah, I absolutely I've seen how important that is
uh with with the changes thatwe've been through as an agency,
uh, where Matt took us from kindof a local service business
agency in Houston to you know anational kind of enterprise
level agency.
And that was all about what's onthe website, the positioning,
how are we presenting ourselves?

(03:26):
As somebody who takes all thethe inbound leads and and all
the phone calls coming in, uhabsolutely saw the the you know,
you you get the type of clientsthat you're aiming for, and a
lot of that is is is what yourwebsite reflects.
Yeah, so to prior prior to umhaving your own agency, you
worked uh inside other adagencies.

(03:48):
Uh, what what broke your brainthe first when you uh getting
into the client work uh on thebusiness side?

SPEAKER_02 (03:55):
Yeah, 100%.
So I used to work for Klemingeruh BBDO uh down here in
Melbourne, Australia, and GeorgeHurst and Why Now, so the Y
Night Group, uh which everyoneknows of the two agencies, Bob
White.
Uh rather than work for the man,I thought I'd be the man.
Uh, but mate, uh sometimes yourealize I know you're wearing a
hat right now, but mate, thenumber of hats you wear, you've
got to do sales, you've got todo HR, you've got to do

(04:17):
marketing.
I'm I'm on the same guy who hasto empty the bins, uh, as well
as debt collect at the sametime, and hire and do sales and
make a website at the end of theday.
And I think you just don'trealize you can't do everything.
That's where you need to build agreat team.
But you need to understand thatyou've got to have good cash
flow as well.
You're gonna understandmarketing and so well, that mind

(04:38):
uh blown moment was autilization so no no regrets
though, having made that move.

SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
It was probably harder than you thought it was
gonna be.
And you probably and youprobably thought it was gonna be
hard.
And did it end up being moredifficult than you thought it
would be?

SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
Well, actually, actually, for me, I think my
naivety of of business wasactually my strength and the
fact that I think if I knew ifyou showed me what the future
would be like and how much painI'd have to go through, uh in
the school hard knocks itself, Ithink I would have tapped out.
But I think I was like, oh, itcan't be that bad, you know,
just make a website, sellwebsite.
That's about it and stuff likethat.

(05:14):
Yeah, and I think that naivetygoes, like, yeah, that's that's
simple, right?
And so uh, like I said, my hairstarted here when I first
started the agency.
So I think this is ademonstration of just how much
uh hard work one swept andtears, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
So yeah, absolutely.
So so the we'll meet realityeventually, but the uh the
unfounded optimism is not a badfoundation to start off with
because you need you need thatkind of optimism to launch into
any venture.
And if we knew what we weregetting into, maybe we wouldn't
start, but um, you've done it,you built it, so that's that's
amazing.

(05:47):
That's um uh you're launching aSaaS while running an
established agency.
How do you think aboutproductizing services versus
building software?
And why why are you getting intothat right now?

SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
Yeah, I think I think if you actually look at
all the I mean, I was actuallyreading something about um uh
Mailchip.
Uh well no mailchip for theemail uh SaaS that it is.
Um did you know that otheragency back in the day and stuff
like that?
And then I that kind of got methinking, oh, but what's the
backstory of all these differentSaaSes and stuff?
And I realized that everyoneused to be a website shop shop

(06:20):
somewhere in the in their lives,starting with websites.
That then turns into somedigital marketing, or you know,
maybe be a specialist orjournalist.
But then everyone realizes maybethe grass is green on the other
side, maybe it's not justrunning a service business.
Oh, what about product guys?
And then you know, SaaS kind ofblew up, everyone loves SAS.
Let's get into SAS, you know,recurring revenue sounds

(06:41):
wonderful, and then away they gothey they go uh into SaaS land.
But we actually started the SASnot because uh of that smart to
say do what I just said, it wasactually we were solving our own
problem.
So, what had happened was we hadcreated our own service-based
business, we gave lots of leadsto our website, but you know
what?
I don't want leads, oh sorry, Idon't want uh traffic, I want

(07:03):
phone calls.
Um, I don't want people to sortof look at my website.
I mean, you can give you amillion impressions on my
website, or you know, I don'tcare what that time is, I need
phone calls, I need forms filledout so I can actually follow
them up.
And so we were testing thisthing over seven years, tried
three two different variationsacross our website and client

(07:23):
websites, and we decided andfound one method on converting
people faster and quicker.
Um, and we decided to productizeit, and that's how Conversion
Cal came about.
So it was actually a product formyself, copy selfish, but I just
thought, hey, I want to help meand get that from Regan.
Then we did, and now we'veactually turned it into a

(07:46):
product that anyone can use forless than a couple of days and
stuff like that.
I don't have a cup here, um, butwe have a cup that says milk
your website and beef up yourwebsite for more leads, and
that's a heart.
Um, add our software to your toyour website, and it's uh a
nice, quick, easy way to jack upthose conversion weights.
True.

SPEAKER_01 (08:04):
So is is that a product that you use with active
clients who come on in youragency?
Are you oh 100%?
Yeah, adopt that as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:13):
Yeah, so so now we've we've uh taken to the
point where number one's on ourwebsite, number two, it's
actually on the conversion cowwebsite, conversion cow is on
conversion cow.
But because we're buildingwebsites and people go, Hey,
you've built me a really greatwebsite, we're getting lots of
traffic.
Are there any other tips andtricks, Erwin?
Um, and and everyone for andhere's a big mistake that a lot
of customers make they thinkit's about spending more money

(08:36):
on marketing.
Well, let's do more SEO, moretraffic, more.
I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
Do you realize that if you had amillion people coming to you and
only like a couple of percentare getting through, your issue
isn't that you need two millionpeople coming through.
Yeah, it's like your toilet'sblocked.
We need to unplug this hole toget people through to your
telephone, and so that's wherewe really focused.

(08:58):
It's not about spending more SEOAdWords because I had one
client, 16,000 people per monthvisiting their website, and
they're like, we're gonna spendmore.
I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
These AdWords, I mean, Google'sreally rich because they make
lots of money from AdWords.
Yeah, SEO agencies are uh rakingit up because they're charging

(09:19):
lots, but for this particularclient, they're still not
getting as many phone calls asthey should be, and so all we
did was working on software andlet's look at the data.
I think data, you know, weshouldn't be making uh guesses,
should look at the data, and werealized yeah, lots of people
come to your website.
There's no offer, no special,lack of call of actions, lack of

(09:40):
proof, no reason why someoneshould get in touch.
And our software did all of thatin one shot, like that.
So why not?

SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
So that's a lot to do in one shot.
There must be a lot of inputsneeded into the software from
the client when you'reonboarding them.
How does that look?
How much information do theyneed to give you for that to
work?

SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's actually not as tricky asyou think.
So let's play a game and stuff.
If I was to engage with you, oractually think of it not like a
website, think of it like afirst date, right?
Think of the best first dateyou've ever gone on.
There's only four questions youasked on that date.
Who are you?
What do you do?
Uh why should we go out and canI have your phone number?

(10:21):
They're exactly the samequestions people will ask on a
in particular, service-basedbusiness, so professional
services, trade services, alliedhealth services, right?
I know who you are, but I kindof want to know what you do in
more detail.
Can you prove that what you justsaid you're actually really good
at it?
Um, you know, with all this kindof testimonials, you know,

(10:42):
logos, all the usuals.
And then can I just have yourphone number, like the details
at the end, uh, like that date.
But how many people miss theseuh basics and stuff like that?
Who are you?
What do you do?
Why choose you?
How do you get in touch?
Actually, anyone who'slistening, I challenge you to
almost take a pause, open up anew browser.
If you're driving, don't dothat.

(11:03):
But open a browser, flick it on,look on your mobile, and just
see how quickly, not do you sayit all over your website, people
are lazy, they've got a coupleof seconds, but can you and do
you say who you are, what youdo, why choose you, and how to
get in touch with you?
So your phone number, email,short, whatever it is, and maybe
a combination, because let's behonest.

(11:25):
If Jess, uh, if uh Jeff, ifyou're an extrovert and you want
to pick up the call, but I'm abit of an introvert, I just want
to type a message, and I've gotan email because I need an email
because I've got a whole briefas well.
Do you actually make it easy forpeople to get in touch?
And so the information we askfor is really we just ask those
four questions, and our toolliterally lets you summarize it

(11:47):
all in one shot, one place, andwe make it prominent all the
time so you can't even miss iton a website.
That's actually how simple itis.

SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
Yeah, so some really some basic points of CRO that
you're getting locked downthere, make it easy for people
to connect with you, make iteasy for them to take the action
that you want them to take,which is reach out and connect.
So, what about the part of youknow, nobody nobody wants to go
on a first date where the otherperson talks about themselves
the entire time?
What about that thing aboutresonating with customers and

(12:17):
their pain points?
And how do you think about that?
How do you approach that pieceof the puzzle?

SPEAKER_02 (12:22):
So, so love it.
See, the problem is websites arestatic, it's the same message,
same way, every time.
If only there was a way to makeyour message dynamic and relate
to the person.
So, say the example, if someoneclicked on an AdWords ad that
said, you know, I've got aproblem with X, and when you

(12:44):
click on that ad, you go to thewebsite.
I get it, you know, you sendthem to the right landing page
or the right page withoutproblem.
But what if that page doesn'teven have the exact details on
it?
Does that mean you have to pay250 bucks or something per hour
to some guy to fix that page andwhat?
No, actually, so conversioncount, what makes it so magical
is the message changes dependingon how the customer interacts

(13:08):
with the website.
So, say for example, we have oneclient who's a plumber.
After hours, after 5:30 p.m.,the message on his website
changes from go to generalinquiry, give us a call, and
then here's our head officenumber to oh, it's after hours.
The only reason why you'relooking is your toilet's busted,
or do you have an after hoursemergency?

(13:30):
So the message instantly nowchanges to got an after-hour
hour emergency problem.
When you click it, it doesn't goto the head office phone number,
it now goes to Gary on hismobile number, and he'll come
out within 24 hours.
That to me is a great customerexperience.
And I think Seth Golden said itthe right message at the right

(13:50):
time to the right person equalsa high conversion rate.
And the problem with I guess anywebsite, CR is good for once-off
static, you've done an A-B test,but what if you could change the
message every time?

SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
No, that's that that's great.
Uh, so you give you mentionedkind of one vector and one
situation, uh, which is time ofday for a plumber.
What are the other kind ofsignals that you would use to
change the message on thewebsite?
Would it be the different adsthat you're running, the
different language that's in theads?
What else?

SPEAKER_02 (14:23):
Yeah, uh, another way to change it is uh we have
another client, uh actually, thesame client, actually, the same
client, they realize that duringthe day, not everyone has a um
just wants to know uh the bottomof the final message, which is
his defendant.
How do we get them in the middleif they're kind of choosing
between two or three people?
We realize special offers anddiscounts help, especially with

(14:44):
trade businesses.
But if you come up with oneoffer, so you know, 10% off your
first service, right?
Well, what if I'm coming for thesecond time?
That doesn't qualify.
And so our software allows youto put, I'd say, three
discounts.
One's for the first time, one'sfor repeating customer, and one
is actually for a referringcustomer.
So your customer but referringto someone else, and that

(15:04):
message can change every month.
So this month, special, soexclusive discount offer for the
month of June, bang.
And you know what?
It's winter now, change it.
Oh, it's a different month,change it.
It's seasonal, change it.
And so we found that offers andspecials are another great way
to engage someone becauseremember, we're here just to get
someone's attention and get thatattention and turn it into

(15:27):
action of sorts and stuff.
So we use um uh sometimes it'stestimonials and case studies,
that kind of gets you.
Sometimes it's a video, that'sanother method, could be dot
points, you know, clearmessaging, answer the problem,
value of your company, um,discounts and specials, yeah,
it's a bit of everything.

SPEAKER_01 (15:46):
Yeah, so all those discounts and special offers are
built into the platform, is thatright?
Is that how it works?

SPEAKER_02 (15:52):
Yeah, well, well, you need to create the offer
firstly, but we can display themessage of that offer.
Sure.
Um, and let's be honest, if youhave some sort of you know,
tracking internally, wheneveryone calls up and says, hey,
you know, use Jeff 123 as thecode, then you can also
attribute or attribute wherethat came from as well.
So attribution is also anotherone.
Uh, where do you that's soimportant?

SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
Yeah, yeah, very valuable, very valuable.
Always something that we'relooking for is marketers.
How do we attribute, you know,which channels are doing the
work for us or doing the heavylifting, are getting us the best
results?
Let's tell me a little bit nowabout uh as you built this SaaS.
Obviously, you've got you knowcustomer, inbound customers
coming to your marketing agencythat you can offer this product

(16:34):
to them.
How are you growing the productoutside of that?
Just for you know, customers whoare just SaaS-only customers.
Uh, tell me about that growthjourney and how you were able to
build up your customer base foryour product.

SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Yeah, I mean, at the start, what I've actually
learned is you need proof.
You just need some proof.
So at the start, you do have togo.
So pretending you're on day onewith no one.
Well, you need a couple ofpeople to trust you to love you.
It just so happens we have anagency and a SAS, so we kind of
feed uh ourselves, you know,because I am my own perfect
target market and stuff likethat.
And you want to kind of get yourfirst, you know, couple of

(17:08):
clients, but you're not reallytrying to get the money, you're
trying to get the proof, thetestimonials and the results,
and then you use that and thenyou build off of that to get
more customers and stuff.
So at the start, it's your innercircle and people who can feed.
And you might have some matesand people who run agencies,
you've got to work out who yoursales channels or partners can
be, but then it gets to the nextlevel after that, where you kind

(17:30):
of know people, you can eitherrun ads, that's one side, or you
can do that kind of call stuff.
So call email, call calling, um,running your own outbound teams
and stuff.
And that's what we're kind ofslowly building out as we're
just trying to perfect becausethat's the other thing.
When running a SAS, you need tonail, absolutely nail the crap
out of your ICP who is thatabsolute perfect profile person.

(17:53):
Because I'm not gonna lie, Iused to be be the guy who did
what I said I shouldn't do.
Everyone's my customer, no, yes,not everyone's your customer.
No, yeah, some people are justmore fruitful or more profitable
uh than others, and some peopleactually get more um uh banger
bang bang for their buck out ofthe software than others.

(18:14):
And so why go for just everyonewhen you can actually just go
for the absolute cream of thecrop?
So for us, we worked out hightraffic websites.
So you have a very high trafficwebsite, then hey, you've
already got the people comingin, we just need to get them
through, right?

SPEAKER_01 (18:29):
You potentially high traffic, low conversion, though,
like high traffic, not gettingthe results that you want.
That sounds like a real painpoint for yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
So you're running AdWords campaigns, SEO, meta,
you know, all the paid ad stuff,or you maybe you're really good
with organic, you know, youmight have a great podcast or a
great uh Instagram account orsomething.
You can pull people in, butthat's all it is.
It's uh what do they say?
Likes is vanity, sales issanity.
I don't care about you likingus, and that's it.

(18:57):
I want you to call us so we canactually turn that into to
business and something thatwhere we can give value, and you
can actually see a result umthat's financially beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
So yeah, so you you you had the proof before
scaling, yeah.
You know, because A, you'resolving your own problem, and B,
you're going to your networkfirst.
So you're not you're not justbuilding an app and then
throwing a bunch of ads at it,you're building proving it,
you're getting feedback, andyou're really understanding that
this is something that is goingto be useful to people because

(19:27):
people are telling us that it'suseful.

SPEAKER_02 (19:30):
Correct.
So we actually did a couple oftests and stuff, and we actually
just uh we got nominated for aaward here uh recently.
Um, and in the interview processfor the award, they said, show
us methodically how you provedit.
So first one was we built it forourselves.
Did it actually uh impact uh ourresults?
So it did.

(19:50):
Great.
Now, did you implement onsomeone else's one and did it
show results?
It did.
But then we thought, wait aminute, I said at the very
beginning this formula traffictimes conversion rate equals
customers.
And we realized there's anincrease in customers or phone
calls, maybe you're like websiteleads, we'll call, right?
Uh can you close it or not?
That's that's another story.
But where are we getting thephone calls?

(20:10):
But then we realized, wait aminute, if we did a little bit
of conversion, but we just didmore traffic, it would also
affect that number.
So we then had to do anothertest where we kind of kept the
traffic number as as even aspossible.
So don't spend more money onAdWords or warn SEO or other
channels.
But could you tell withconversion count and without

(20:32):
conversion count that there wasa jump?
And so we ran it on uhparticular clients.
This one client I'm thinking of,this was their result before,
after it actually jumped up andwe doubled and stuff like that.
So we're like, mate, that's allwe needed, and it was actually
doing the same period withinwhat we'll call it a Jan to

(20:52):
March period.
We could attribute it.
Hey, I think we're on the rightpath and stuff, and so then away
you go.
And so you start collectingtestimonials, um uh feedback,
you start building case studies,and then you use the case
studies to then sell what youdo.
Because remember, no one caresthat you make websites or you
have software or you do ads,they don't care what you do,

(21:14):
they want to buy the result ofwhat you do, and so yes, yes,
absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
That's so you you you mentioned kind of the the
ideal customer being hightraffic, low conversions,
because that's a problem thatyou can help fix.
That's one of three.
Yep.
Yeah, that's okay, okay.
What the other two?

SPEAKER_02 (21:32):
Yeah, so the first one was actually high traffic,
low conversion.
Second is you actually careabout lead generation.
I know it sounds funny, but somepeople have high traffic, but
they go, I don't need the frontring, like we're fine, you know.
You actually have to care aboutlead generation.
So we found trade businesses, uhsorry, trade services, health
services like Allied Health,like you know, um opt on physio,

(21:54):
all the usuals, um, professionalservices, uh, and also what I
call family entertainmentservices.
Services are like you know,escape rooms to you know, you
know, golf places, right?
All these services, they havehigh traffic because they need
lots of people.
They care about region, that'swhy they're spending money on
marketing, and they can't umthey're not re you just want a

(22:18):
lot of a lot of repeat.
I think that's the other one.
Yeah, um, one, two, and thethird one as the absolute golden
if you get all three, if they'rehigh value clients, so uh
dental, property, building,construction, that kind of
stuff.

(22:38):
So if you have lots of traffic,you care about those leads, and
if you close one client, you cansuddenly like 10x, you know,
whatever your spend was, awayyou go.
And so, in fact, you have oneclient.
Um, I can't really say what theydo, let's just say they're in
the they're in the techindustry, they're a
manufacturer.
One sale for them is 10 grand.

(23:00):
Lots of traffic, they need lotsof leads because they want to
sell a lot of them, and one ofthese bits of machinery is 10
grand a pot.
Our software's less than acoffee a day, you know.
I think it's like three, fivegrand, you know, that sort of
thing.
Yeah, yeah.
One and that's annually, so it'sa once off annual, it's like say
five grand, right?
You've got my software for fivefor one year.

(23:23):
He closed it, he got he he wrote$52,000 worth of sales in 10
days.

SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
It's already paid for itself, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
He he closes one, he's already paid for my
software in spades and stuff,and he was absolutely chuffed.
I'm like, I've done my part.
He felt really bad that I'vealready made this much money out
of the whole.
I'm like, that's the point ofthe so the service, right?

SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
Yeah, so I mean those those those high ticket,
those high-ticket businesses,absolutely uh excellent.

SPEAKER_02 (23:52):
Well, you'd actually look at yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (23:54):
Sorry.
Some of the some of the ones youmentioned, the um uh kind of the
family entertainment ones areones where you know you
mentioned like uh escape rooms,things like that.
They have you know a set numberof bookings that they're trying
to fill, and what you know,unless they build a second room,
like they're they're booked up,right?
So their thing is just fill ourcalendar all throughout time.

(24:16):
How do you handle that kind offlow flow of demand?

SPEAKER_02 (24:20):
Love it, love it.
Okay, you're right.
Escape rooms, cinemas, pop, youknow, axe throwing, whatever,
whatever the thing is, there's aset limit, but this is what
we've worked out.
There are so many dead times.
So, so there's there's timeperiods where people just don't
go.
So there's a skating rink here.

(24:40):
I'm thinking to myself, no one'sskating in the morning from
seven to nine, right?
Or I might not be skating uh youknow really late or really early
or some after lunch or beforelunch and something.
So I talked about those discountoffers and specials.
We're calling happy hours,right?
Yeah, why don't you pushdifferent ideas, try A-B test

(25:04):
with the software as well, andtry to fill all the dead times.
So don't give discounts to thetimes that are nice and happy,
you know, and fruitful.
Fill those ones, and so it's agreat method to try to fill the
box.
It's actually not as full as youthink it is, it's only full when
it's popular during, you know,after dinner, nighttime,

(25:24):
weekends, that sort of thing.
But we get those Mondays toThursdays really backed up and
booked up.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
Yeah, it's interesting in different
different industries, the thingsthat drive demands.
One of the projects that uh EWRhelped me out with when I was
sitting on the client side ofthe table was uh uh marketing
industrial generators uh forbackup power.
Mult multiple scenarios, but oneof the scenarios in the States
was you know, a hurricane comesrolling in, and all of a sudden

(25:51):
there's new demand, you know,after the storm blows through,
there's a lot of power outages,there's big demand.
And what worked really nicely onthat situation was that we had
campaigns that we could turn onand off regionally, depending on
where you know, the storms don'talways hit in the same place,
but in conjunction with the uhthe people on the ground who
were, you know, sort of gettingthe equipment into the area in

(26:15):
advance of a storm, you know,combined with the logistics
people on the ground preparingfor the situation, along with
our marketing, we were able toabsolutely max out the entire
fleet, and so much so that theuh competitors were coming to
us.
So, you know, it's interestingwhen you when and those are
unpredictable situations, butwhen you can prepare for the ups

(26:36):
and downs of things, you know,and having something in place in
advance to you know turn on theswitch to take, you know, take
advantage of the demand when itappears uh in an unpredictable
situation.
That that was kind of aninteresting uh thing that uh
Matt and the team had come upwith when I was working on the
other side of the table.
Yeah, it was really interesting.
Let's let's jump in now to umthe human psychology and

(26:59):
persuasion discussion.
That's something that you'veexpressed interest in.
How does that actually show upin the way that you build
websites or the way that you runcampaigns?
Do you have a specific exampleof how you leverage that type of
thinking?

SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
Yeah, I think it's just really, I mean, we just did
a website for a uh company.
Uh unfortunately, in the age, Ican't say the exact name, but
they're in property, they dohigh-year luxury property.
Um, one build could be like twomillion dollars plus, right?
That kind of stuff, right?
Yeah, so it's not small.
You see, we all uh say if I havethree cars, a Mazda, a Mercedes,

(27:35):
a Maserati, they're all forwardsof the steering wheel, but each
one attracts a different type ofuser and different type of
buyer.
And I think we need to realizethe way we design our websites
actually uh it's like this thebait, right?
The different type of baitcatches a different fish.
We just need to know who we'reattracting, and we need to also
make it look in a certain way tomatch accordingly because a

(27:57):
Mazda person isn't going to wantuntil you know to buy a
Maserati, and a Maserati persondoesn't want it to look like a
Mazda, so it's just reallymaking sure that you've got the
right look to uh persuade orpresuade someone, and persuasion
is the word from uh Dr.
Robert Chaudini uh from hisbook.
Uh persuasion, yeah, absolutely.

(28:19):
Yep.
You can actually influencesomeone, yeah.
You can actually influencesomeone prior to engagement, and
so if I look high-end, if I lookuh um established, then I kind
of know that I'm gonna bespending a bit more money.
But we have high-end builderswho look cheap and they wonder

(28:40):
why they can't convince peopleto sign on the double line
because it's like, well, you'renot attracting the right people
because you don't look like it.
Does it does that make sense?
Yeah, so you kind of just needto make sure that everything
aligns, so yeah, we we attractuh whatever we put out.

SPEAKER_01 (28:55):
So yeah, the the look of a website is the look of
a website is absolutely a trustfactor.
I I've got uh friends in inbusiness who who are you know
selling a very high-end product,but their website is something
they built themselves.
And I'm I'm like, guys, you youyou are really doing yourself a
disservice, you know, they'vegot some kind of uh software
installed that shows them, youknow, on the back end who's

(29:16):
visiting their website, andthey're seeing you know some
very high-value customer, youknow, potential customers come
around, but they're notconverting because they haven't
taken the time to 100% createsomething trustworthy.

SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
We we did this fun test, actually.
Um, and so so anyone who'slistening, play along.
Think about your business justfor a moment, your own business,
whatever it is, and how wouldyou rate your business out of
10?
Okay, so you're in terms of youknow how professional you are,
your service, your quality, youraftermarket, so whatever it is
and stuff, rate it out of 10.
Think of a number, it's like amagic trick.
Think of a number.

(29:47):
You've got a number, okay.
Whatever number you have in yourhead that represents your
business, throw it in the bin.
It doesn't matter what youthink, it's what the customer
thinks.
So, and the only way yourcustomer is gonna tell what your
business or how good yourbusiness is, is they're just
gonna look at what's out therein the public, right?
So unless I rock up to youroffice, talk to your staff, look

(30:09):
at your show, whatever, whichI'm not gonna do, by the way,
because I have no idea who youare first.
I'm just gonna do my duediligence first.
And it's gonna be your website.
That's gonna be the first pointof call.
So if you said, and you'relistening to this podcast, and
you gave your own business aneight and a half out of ten, but
I'd look at your website and Iread the basics, like we said

(30:31):
before.
Who are you, what do you do, whyshould I choose you, how to get
in touch?
And I also look at it from whatI call a heart perspective and a
head perspective.
So the heart is the emotionalstuff.
So did it look good, is it nice,is it does it make it feel
whatever, with the words aswell, right?
Words and pictures.
Did it feel right?
And rationally, does it show me?
And you said the keyword, trust,trust and authority.

(30:54):
So if it felt right, and it alsoreads right and mentally matches
up, and you go, Yeah, actually,that looks like an eight and a
half as well, then well done.
But my question is you just gaveyour own business a number.
I'm gonna ask you and challengeyou right now, open your website
and show uh a potential customerand say, How would you rate the

(31:19):
business or this business out of10 just based on the website?
And can I tell you there aremore websites out there that
have a lower rating and aperception than what your actual
business is?
And perception and reality areuh are actually the same in the
customer's mind, and so we'redealing with customers all the

(31:39):
time who go, Oh, don't look atmy website, it's really bad.
But oh, we're really goodservice.
And I'm like, your website saysfour out of ten, you say you're
eight out of ten.
How's the customer meant to go?
You're actually paying peopleoff yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
And then and then and then like don't even get
into the messaging, you know,where there'll be a lot of
vagueness, you know, likehelping businesses scale
through, you know, honing uhcustomer service excellent
excellence.
I'm like, what is that?
Everybody's trying toeverybody's trying to do that,
you know.
That's that doesn't tell meanything about what you do as a
business.
That's one thing we we see somuch is that within that

(32:13):
seven-second window that we haveto tell people who we are, what
we do, a lot of times themessage just isn't there in a
clear way.

SPEAKER_02 (32:21):
And I think you even hit on the head there with the
messaging.
Uh, how many people use the worduh you know, we are effective,
successful, we like what dothese words even mean?
You know, like like let's let'sjust get straight to the point,
you know.
Who are you, what do you dostraight away.
You know, we help whoever solvethis problem so you get this

(32:41):
result.
That's it, that's all peoplewant, not some oh hi uh da da
da, you know, too long did notread.
Um, we just want to make itshort and steady.

SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
So yeah, absolutely.
So on your site, you say thatyou've been involved in uh doing
some illusion work with cards.
How does tell me about that andhow does how does what
principles from that inform orcarry over into the marketing
realm?
Anything?
Yeah, is there a connectionthere?

SPEAKER_02 (33:11):
No, no, I absolutely absolutely I think the other the
thing is magic and marketing areno different.
It's it's the understanding ofhuman psychology and how people
think, and you can actually wellin magic, it's you you use it
for entertainment purposes.
In marketing, you're here tomake someone do something.
So, as an example, right now, ifI was to make a say a pen dis uh

(33:35):
appear, this pen appears out ofnowhere, right?
If you actually get rid of it,it actually just disappears,
right?
How did I do it?
I understand how you look andwhere you look, I can control
your attention.
And so, as an example, if I wasto make that pen appear and I
was to make it flick out, it'sonly because it's been here all

(33:58):
the time.
It's just like if I turn my handthis way, I know you can't see
it.
So I can control your attentionbecause I know my angles very
well, and I can actually bringit out and I can actually pull
it back in slowly like thisquickly, right?
So that's just using you know ummagic and manipulation.
But what I learned from doingthat for 20 odd years was that I

(34:22):
can control someone's attentionand make them do something.
So if I was waving my hand uphere, you're looking up here,
but you're not looking downhere.
That's magic, right?

SPEAKER_01 (34:30):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (34:31):
So let's use the same psychology.
If we have this thing that'sflashing on the side on your
website, I know you're lookinghere and not here, right?
Again, I'm not here to stealyour wallet, take you, you know,
take a card or make a littlebunny appear.
I want you to look here becausethat's the call to action, and
that's just some random pictureof, in this case, a little cow

(34:52):
there, right?
I want you to look here.
That's how we use humanpsychology and I guess it's kind
of magic thinking in websites.

SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
So not not not trickery, not not trying to fill
people, but directing attention,creating focus on the thing that
is the most critical to helppeople make a decision.

SPEAKER_02 (35:10):
100% solve their problem.
Yeah, and I think it just itjust helped me to realize it uh
to another level, and it wasable to demonstrate in front of
an interesting way as well.

SPEAKER_01 (35:20):
So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Uh, you had this quote that uhyou like to make the complex
simple and the simple beautiful.
Where do you see people,clients, customers, uh
overcomplicating things in theirapproach to their marketing?

SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
Yeah, people treat their sales pitch, their
proposals, but mainly theirwebsite as if it's the full
movie.
What do I mean?
Your website is meant to be likea movie teaser.
It's 15 seconds of the best bitsbecause my attention span is

(35:58):
this short.
Tell me what's the top levelsummary.
It's like a blurb of a book,right?
I just want to know.
I'm not gonna read the wholebook, I just want to find out
what's it generally about.
People are skimmers, notswimmers, they scan.
So, and once you're interested,that's when you swim through it,

(36:20):
you read everything.
Websites are too convoluted,people treat them like
encyclopedias, and they put twohours of the of everything into
it.
People don't care.
Make your messages simple, putin just the best bits and treat
your movie, your website like amovie teaser, because if they
like it, they're gonna watch thetrailer.

(36:42):
And what's the trailer?
The trailer is actually thesalesperson who does the pitch
because they're gonna take thebasics and they've got to
elaborate a little bit more, butthey're not gonna give you
everything, you've got to payfor the ticket now to see the
movie itself.
And if you want that, thathappens after I give you a
proposal.
You sign on the dollar line,bang, let's give you the full
service, and that's the movie,that's the full two hours.

(37:04):
So try to shove that all at thestart, no one cares.

SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
Yeah, it's interesting.
You know, the teaser is uh, youknow, the job of the teaser is
often to to pique curiosity,it's to make me think, hey, what
is this?
This looks interesting.
I don't know what it is, but Iwant to know more.
It looks like it's gotpotential, and then the trailer
is like, oh, it's gonna set theexpectation.
This is gonna be amazing, it'sgonna be entertaining, it's

(37:31):
gonna be worth the watch, kindof thing.
Uh, you know, some trailers seemto go overboard where you're
like, Well, I watched thetrailer, I feel like I've
already seen the whole moviebecause there's so much into the
trailer, right?

SPEAKER_02 (37:41):
I I pick I picture my my daughters uh at Costco.
Uh they love going to Costco.
Why?
Because of the days where theydo the samples, all right?
But do you notice the samplesare always they're not huge
pieces, they're like littlebite-sized, broken up sections.
Why?
They just want to hook you inwith that little bit just to get

(38:03):
you interested.
Hey, but if you want more, youknow, the full the full bottles
over there, you know, if youwant to have a full, you know, a
full drink, but here's a littlesip, right?
They're not gonna serve thewhole drink, and they serve the
whole drink, you'll never buythe thing.
That's what our website needs tobe like.
So let's have simple websites.
Less is more, as they say, andlet's be honest, a lot of people

(38:26):
say, I'll just put it on yourhome page.
No, no, let's just put it on thehome page, but at the very top,
because not everyone's gonna gothrough the whole website, top
to bottom.
They're just gonna hit thatfirst frame, make a couple of
quick decisions, they're eitherin or they're out.
That's it.

SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
Yeah, and then I think about um, you know, word
of mouth, word of mouth beingkind of in my mind, one of the
peak achievements you can havein marketing.
Like, if you can get busy withjust people sending their
friends to you, and you neverneed to advertise again because
you get all the business youwant through referrals, that's
ideal state, right?
Like, that's where you want tobe.
I remember even being in Costcoand having tried some products

(39:05):
that I really liked, andsomebody was talking to the rep
about it, and I'm walking by andI'm like, that's really good.
Buy it, like I, you know, likeyou know, I'm sure the product
great group's like, Thank you,buddy, for you know, giving me
this recommendation, but Iwouldn't do that if I didn't
really think it was a greatproduct, you know, and and and
those testimonials, what otherpeople are saying about you
online on your website, sharingthat can be such a valuable

(39:26):
confirmation because of coursewe're gonna say our product and
service is amazing, but what areother people saying about us?
Because that's that's the realmessage there.
100%.

SPEAKER_02 (39:35):
I mean, that's that's that's growth hacking.
If you can actually get to thepoint where your customers are
actually sharing what you do,doing that word of mouth and
stuff.
I mean, that that's that's thegolden, that's a golden goose
right there.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (39:48):
So as far as marketing channels go, what
what's the one channel or tacticthat you would say most
businesses are kind of sleepingon right now that they should be
looking into more deeply?

SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
Oh, it depends where you are in your business.
So that's a that's a that's uhlet me break down what I just
told a client just recently.
If you're looking for instantleads right now, like I just
need my French ring, but youhave to pay to play, that's the
problem.
It's really just AdWords, youknow.
We find that you know thingslike AdWords, you know, because
your intent to buy is I mean,you're not gonna type in you

(40:23):
know web design in, you know,wherever you are, if you're not
looking for web designer, or notlooking for lawyer Melbourne if
I'm not looking for a lawyer inMelbourne, you know, sort of
thing.
And so we find that AdWords isgreat if you want some quick
instant ones.
I find a lot of people aren'treally investing into um the
what I call AI search side ofthings.
Uh AI, or AI is big, this andthat, but people are treating

(40:47):
now ChatGPT and all thosesearches and clauds and so forth
as search engines and makingdecisions and actually believing
it as gospel.
Um, you do know that AI doesn'tthink for itself, it just takes
information that's up in theworld to summarise it for you.
Yeah, um, but I find that peoplearen't investing as much into

(41:07):
that side of things as much asthey really should.
Um, still doing SEO, that'simportant, but doing this is
actually still, in my eyes, justSEO, but just more of it.
Um yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
We we we are very much um, you know, I'm always
asking people when they come inon a sales call, you know, first
question, how did you find us?
Because we want to know whatchannels are working.
And more and more we're hearinguh, you know, we found you on
cloud, we found you on ChatGPT,we found you on Gemini, whatever
channel they're using.
And they're also interested inhow do we get found on those

(41:41):
channels, which is somethingthat uh that Matt is uh
absolutely uh pursuingaggressively.
We've got uh something we callthe LLM visibility stack, which
is uh a way of architecting yourinformation.
You know, it used to be kind ofjust your website and then maybe
your Google Business profile anda few other channels, but now
it's you know architecting yourinformation across a whole lot

(42:03):
of surfaces, as we call it, uh,to get indexed by these LLMs.
There, there's a whole new gamethat's really an extension of
SEO, and it's an extension ofyou know providing the
information that when people arein the deep research phase, you
know, if if you're looking for arestaurant, you know, the the
the Google stars is good enoughfor reviews.

(42:25):
You know, it's got 4.7.
Okay, good enough.
I don't need to do deep researchon this.
If you're looking for a bigticket purchase, then there's
going to be a deeper researchphase.
And that's where the AI surgecan come into it.
And certainly on the B2B side,uh the that deep research is
part of you know, those longerbind cycles, that those, you

(42:45):
know, that deep uh researchprocess.
So absolutely uh AI is kind ofthe new thing, still still being
defined, but you know, we alwayssay a good solid SEO foundation,
you know, is the key startingpoint for opening in AI search.
Yeah, it's it's the it's thecore for sure.
Um, you also have a thing of uhyou're involved in mentoring

(43:07):
youth.
What's the one thing that youwould tell young people who want
to build something in thedigital space today?
What advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Oh, give it a crack.
Just just I mean, you have everytool.
I mean, imagine what I mean.
The fact that you have AI, we'retalking about you know, Chip T,
Claude, and so forth.
The fact that you can almostspeak into existence as such a
product that back in the dayyou'd have to sit there,
program, and and you know, I waswatching a guy today making a

(43:34):
mascot, you know, for or designuh for their company.
Um, literally was like, make mea mascot, that's a da da da
enter.
Like, yeah, you don't need thoseskills anymore.
We used to be, oh, how do I findthe graphics designer?
Uh how much I it's just enter,done, it's and it's so simple.
So give it a crack.
You have nothing to lose,really.

(43:55):
And if you can have if you canfind the time to spend time on
Netflix and stuff like that.
You can definitely have time tostart something.
So I always say just give it ago.
The biggest thing for me isthere's no such thing as fail.
Fail stands for first attemptedlearning, and we are all here
learning something.
It just so happens that I'veforgotten what it feels like to

(44:16):
do it for the first time becausethat was a good 25 uh 30 years
ago and stuff like that.
So it's really give it a go,build up as much experience as
you can, uh, keep it a crack andstuff, and all in.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, the the thing withespecially young folks, a lot of
times they're the consumer ofdifferent entertainment
platforms.
And so they they might start offthinking, like, oh, let's build
the next Spotify or the nextentertainment-based platform.
Whereas, you know, getting moreinto the B2B world, if you have
exposure to some particularindustry through family, through

(44:53):
work experience, whatever, thosethose are niches that are just
full of uh opportunities whenyou have a little bit more
extended understanding into aspecialized world of some kind.
I just see a ton ofopportunities there as well.

SPEAKER_02 (45:07):
So I've been saying to some people, stop consuming,
start creating, right?
So stop being the consumer, bethe creator.
Second, put in your 10,000hours, so putting the effort,
just give a crap.
Number three, you don't countthe first 100 hours, you know,
sort of like whatever you do,stop judging yourself.

(45:28):
I'm gonna tell you right now, ifyou want to see the future,
you're gonna be crap at whateveryou start.
You're gonna be horrible at it.
So I've just started uh playinggolf, I'm horrible at it, and
I'm not gonna judge myselfbecause I'm not gonna be Tiger
Woods in overnight.
Even Tiger Woods himself tooktime to get to where he was and
stuff like that.
Though he's naturally talented,and I'm not naturally talented,

(45:51):
so don't beat yourself up.
Know that everyone started inthe same place, and the only
regret we have is if we justdon't start.
So no matter how old you are,where you are, do it.

SPEAKER_01 (46:04):
Start, put put offers out there, let the market
tell you.
Because you might think, oh,I've got a great idea.
Well, build your minimum viableproduct, get it out there, and
let the market tell you if it'sa great idea or not.
The market's pretty ruthlesswith its feedback.
Well, actually, that's good.
That's good.

SPEAKER_02 (46:22):
You know, well, feedback.
Let me just talk about that onebecause that's something we
learned in conversion card.
Feedback is not I created so I Icreated this, right?
Feedback is not, hey Jeff, isthis good?
And you say yes or no.
That's not feedback.
That's especially if it'sespecially if it's nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
Yeah, especially especially your friends and
family, they're gonna tell you,yeah, that's great, it'll work,
do it because they're trying tosupport you.

SPEAKER_02 (46:46):
Yeah, let me tell what tell you what feedback
truly is.
Feedback is will you give memoney for this?
Because you vote with yourdollars.
So if you will actuallyphysically pay me for this, and
you know the difference betweencharity, it's like, oh yeah,
Erwin, yeah, great, yeah, sure.
Yeah, that's that's that'sthat's the wrong feedback.

(47:09):
Yeah, it's someone who has noidea who you are that you're
able to convince in seconds withwhatever your pitches really
fast, and if they go, yep, Iwant to take one, I think you're
onto something, and then justscale that.
But if you because I had peoplewho are like, Oh, what do you
think of this?
They're like, Oh, it's the bestthing, wonderful, yeah, love it.

(47:29):
When we developed our products,we then said, Okay, well, well,
you said you love it, you get tobe our first foundation clients,
and it cost this.
Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,okay, well, now I have to pay
for it.
Okay, no, no, no, really, no,what was it that you do again?
Let me and I was like, You'rejust giving me lip service.
No, I'm not saying that in arude way, I'm just saying that I

(47:52):
I really am asking you to justtell me honestly, would you pay
for it?
And I'm gonna make you pay forit.
That's how you actually work outif it's actually good or bad.
So you vote with your dollars,see if you can do that.
Not a sound, I'm not saying sella million of them, just get that
off for the MVP.

SPEAKER_01 (48:10):
Absolutely, I think that's that's great advice
because the market, you know, isnot sentimental, it'll just tell
you.
No, it's brutal.
Absolutely brutal.
Is the thing that you created,is the thing you created.
Like, does that make me feelbetter and feel like my problems
are solved?
Does that feel better havingthat thing you're offering than
having the money in my pocket?
Because it's gonna, I've gottabe convinced that me spending

(48:33):
money on your thing is gonnamake my situation better
substantially before I followthat credit card.

SPEAKER_02 (48:39):
And can I just put it out there?
Just you just remind me ofanother conversation I had with
another youth.
There is a time to tap out aswell.
It's not bad, you you're not afailure for tapping out, like
not every business.
I mean, if I had a list of howmany business ideas I've had, uh
mate, I'd I'd fill a wholestadium.

(49:02):
It's some are actually made tofail because you didn't fail,
you failed because you'rementally going, I'm not a
billionaire by now.
What you gained was actuallyexperience on what not to do and
how to improve, or you've got anetwork, or you learn
technology, or it's it's it'sthat that's what you gain.

(49:24):
So if you always just think it'sabout money, then I promise you,
most of us are all failures, youknow, as such, but it's the
journey you have to enjoybecause this journey is about
collecting gems and insights andthings that are going to grow
you.
Because if you asked me, and Iwent, I'm gonna take you back to

(49:47):
when you were 28 when you firststarted chromatics, your first
agency, because I'm 45 now,right?
If you went back to the start,would you want to go back?
Because everyone wants to youknow start young again.
I'd say, yes, I'm happy to goback, but on why condition you
can keep my money that I havenow, but I want to take my

(50:08):
experience with me.
That experience, it's thejourney.
That experience is the journey.

SPEAKER_01 (50:13):
Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:14):
That is more important because right now that
I've got experience, you can'tbuy experience, but money I'll
be able to make a lot more ofthis stuff.
So that's why that experienceside, giving it a go, trying is
so important, and like compoundinterest, um, you just have to
compound that experience early,and that's why I said before

(50:34):
just start now.
And you've got all theresources.
If you don't know how you useChat 2D, YouTube is fantastic.
You don't have YouTube, YouTube,Google it.
If you don't know how to usethose three, I think you're in
deeper trouble than any.

SPEAKER_01 (50:46):
So these tools, these tools will teach you how
to use them.
Claude has taught me how to useClaude, you know.
It it's correct.
Uh there's so much uh in there,yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:57):
And it's free, free and free.
That's how insane the site is.

SPEAKER_01 (51:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
So everything, uh, opportunityeverywhere.
Um, that's that's fantastic.
Uh Erwin, it's been great uhspeaking with you.
How can people connect with youonline?
Where can they find you?
What websites do you want peopleto check out?

SPEAKER_02 (51:16):
Yeah, fantastic.
Um, if if anyone wants toconnect with me, there's a
couple of ways.
Uh, LinkedIn, of course, alwaysworks.
So Irwin Howe, uh IrwinI-R-W-I-N, how is in how do you
do, but h-a-u.
Um, you can connect with me onLinkedIn.
You can go to IrwinHowe.com uhto connect me as well.
But my two agencies or oneagency, chromatics, chronat i

(51:39):
x.com.au, because we are inAustralia, or conversion cows uh
SAS software isconversioncalco.com, uh milk
your website or beef up yourwebsite uh for more leads.
Uh, those four ways uh how youcan actually get in touch.

SPEAKER_01 (51:56):
So look forward, excellent.
Uh thank you so much.
Before I let you go, uh I'mgonna ask you what is the one
mind shift that will helpclients get more out of their
marketing that you'd love to seepeople make.

SPEAKER_02 (52:09):
Yeah, I think it's marketing is actually not as
hard as you think it is, andit's not going to a barbecue and
listening to you know, Uncle Joejust tell me something, just
doing that.
It's a simple formula that we'vesaid before.
Traffic times conversion rateequals customers.
If you want more customers, youneed more people to come to you,

(52:30):
and you actually need toconvert.
And that conversion is not justa once-off point, there's
website conversion, there'stelephone, you know, the picking
up and a book that a point aboutthe phone conversion, there's
conversion of the sales method,at the proposal, about meeting,
all the way to the end.
If you methodically work out andfocus not on just randomly

(52:52):
grabbing everything, but going,what marketing channels do I
have for the right targetmarket?
And how does each conversionpoint work?
And how do I improve each one?
One percenters make a bigdifference.
So it's not just I'm runningads, that's it.
Or my sales guys are fantastic,that's it.
It's the combination of start tofinish.

(53:14):
Everything has to work.
It just so happens that we'vefound that the website level is
where most of it falls downbetween the marketing and the
salesperson.
But I'm not gonna lie, it's thewhole thing that needs to be
affected.
So hopefully that just breaks itdown and makes it a lot easier
to understand.
And if you're not sure, feelfree to reach out and happy to

(53:35):
do that.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (53:36):
So build build out the whole funnel, but pay
special attention to thatconversion piece at the end.
Because if people are coming toyour site, but they're not
making it through to the endprocess where they make an
establish contact with you.
That's the key piece to fix.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, it's been great speakingwith you, everyone.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with us today.
Uh, check out Chromatics ifyou're uh in Australia, you're

(53:57):
looking for marketing.
If you're in the States and youwant to get a hold of us, we're
at ewrdigital.com.
You can uh uh find us there, andwe'd love to have a
conversation.
Check out everyone's softwareagain.
The website for the uh semus forconversion rate optimization is
conversioncal.com.
Conversioncal.com.
Excellent.
Sounds like a great tool.

(54:17):
We're gonna check it outourselves.
Uh thanks again, everyone, foryour time.
I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 (54:21):
Beautiful.
Thanks for having me.
Take care.

SPEAKER_01 (54:23):
Cheers.
See you.

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