February 1, 2026 • 39 mins
We unpack how search is shifting from blue links to AI-driven answers and why clean data, focused positioning, and public citations now decide who gets recommended. Solomon Timothy joins us to share practical frameworks for AEO, prompt mapping, and measurable AI visibility.
• why prompts replace keywords across the funnel
• how to make content machine-readable with schema and FAQs
• why entity clarity and niche focus boost trust
• media, podcasts, YouTube, and press as authority signals
• differences between AI Overviews, ChatGPT, and Perplexity
• tracking prompts, mentions, and reverse engineering citations
• fixing iframes and technical blockers to visibility
• building internal tools while the market matures
• what to measure before and after AI visibility work
• practical wins for local and niche brands
Guest Contact Information:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/solomonthimothy
Website: thimothy.com
YouTube: youtube.com/c/Clickxio
Instagram: instagram.com/sthimothy
Twitter/X: x.com/sthimothy
More from EWR and Matthew:
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Free SEO Consultation: www.ewrdigital.com/discovery-call
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Now, host Matthew Bertram — creator of LLM Visibility™ and the LLM Visibility Stack™, and Lead Strategist at EWR Digital — takes the conversation beyond traditional SEO into the AI era of discoverability.
Each week, Matthew dives into the tactics, frameworks, and insights that matter most in a world where search engines, large language models, and answer engines are reshaping how people find, trust, and choose businesses. From SEO and AI-driven marketing to executive-level growth strategy, you’ll hear expert interviews, deep-dive discussions, and actionable strategies to help you stay ahead of the curve.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:16):
Howdy, welcome back to another fun filled episode of
The Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
We are working on a new intro,so apologies, everyone.
We have rebranded.
We are also moving on toYouTube.
So if you uh would go check usout on YouTube, it's pretty
pitiful, uh, to be honest.
I would love a review.
Uh, if you're getting value fromthis podcast, we've been doing
(00:36):
it 12 plus years.
Thank you so much for being hereright now.
We're doing a series with anumber of different agency
owners on all the differentthings that are changing uh
within the SEO landscape.
So I wanted to bring on anotherSEO owner, SEO SEO agency owner,
uh Solomon Timothy.
Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_03 (00:54):
Thank you so much, Matt.
Super excited to be here.
And I love talking to veteranslike yourself.
So this is gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00):
Yeah, well, why don't you just kind of set the
table on what you're seeing uhin in the uh changing world of
digital marketing and SEO, andwe'll kind of get started from
there.
SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
Yeah, it's funny.
You've been doing this for 10plus years, so are we.
And I was just saying uh off thestage that every year of this
last 10 years we've been seeingchange.
It's it hasn't stopped, right?
So I don't see this anydifferent from being in the in
the in the weeds.
We know that every year Googlealways rolled out a different
update.
So everything we did, we werelike, oh, screw, that doesn't
(01:33):
work anymore.
Throw it away.
We need long form content.
Oh no, we don't need thatanymore.
We need question answer content.
Oh, we don't do that anymore.
We we do this now, right?
Like we need we it's not aboutthe it's not about the quantity
of the backlings, it's theintent of the backlink.
It's this, it's that, it's zeroclick.
It's like, okay, like did weever get a day off?
(01:53):
You know?
No.
We didn't get a week off.
So so right now, what we'redealing with is fundamentally
the way that we uh you knowsearch or look up information
has changed.
And I think it's a naturalprogression of uh we got tired
of clicking on the blue linksand doing our own assessments
and our own summaries in ourbrains on well, I clicked on 10
(02:16):
links and 10 things differentthings came up, and nine out of
the 10 was this.
So I guess you know we werecoming to conclusions on our
own.
Now Chat GPT will just summarizethe 10 blue links and tell you
one sentence what it is.
So, why would we go and do whatwe used to do, right?
So there's a fundamental shiftin the way that we um change.
We change the way we we look upinformation, we make buying
(02:39):
decisions.
So uh to kind of give you whatI'm seeing every day is that the
searches became prompts, andprompts are now in three
different forms, right?
The top of funnel prompts, themiddle of funnel prompts, and
then the bottom of funnelprompts.
And then we talk about long tailkeywords.
Well, we have long tail prompts,and and there's no two people
searching the same.
(03:00):
It has become so different thatif if you're listening to this
podcast, you're probably the onepercent of people that know
what's going on with theindustry.
You know that sitting aroundanymore is not gonna work.
We have to change.
We need to create a differentexperience so that LLMs can see
our content, right?
(03:21):
Can understand what we'retalking about, and then
hopefully put us in the top ofthe little summary of who to
work with if they have thisproblem.
SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
Yeah, I I can tell you from the clients that I've
been working with uh that havelike reached out to us.
Um, we've landed some really bigclients recently uh at EWR,
which is the sponsor of thispodcast, um, that keeps it
going.
So thank you for 12 plus yearsof of sponsoring and and funding
this.
Um we have a lot of people thatused to run a lot of paid ads to
(03:56):
landing pages without videos oranything on those landing pages
or AB testing it.
And that used to work reallywell.
You could just throw a lot ofmoney at stuff, you could run
ads to landing pages.
Google was like the biggest partof the bucket.
Maybe you run a little bit ofFacebook ads, maybe do some
retargeting.
You know, you're talking aboutbuilding a little bit of funnel
(04:17):
here.
Maybe you're dripping emails,maybe you're not, or text
messages.
Um, and SEO was typically anafterthought uh from a lot of
the clients that we're seeingrecently.
Uh and and now you're trying toplay catch up of not just like
years of not doing SEO, but nowyou're into entity SEO, you're
(04:38):
into GIO, you're into AEO.
Like, you know, I I I've kind ofcoined the term LM visibility
because I I think AI visibilityis like the broader kind of
subset of that.
And then I think it's gonna bemultimodal uh in the future.
Like it's gonna be on anydevice.
Like, how do you get in front ofpeople?
But it but it's all reallyabout, and and where I started,
(04:59):
if you look at like some of thebooks I've written, it was all
about personal branding.
It was about branding.
It was and and so it's likeamplifying that effect of of who
you are as an entity and thenhow you do that and the
execution of that is where youget into the tactics.
And you know, it's still indebate.
I mean, my LinkedIn uh it justblows up with just different
(05:20):
people on different sides oflike SEO is dead, you know, it's
all GIO, it's just the samething, it's a little bit
different.
Like everybody's fighting aboutit.
SPEAKER_01 (05:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
And I I and it constantly is changing, right?
The LLMs are adapting, they'relearning, like they're leaning
on Google, then they're not, andthen you know, Reddit's
important, then it's not.
Like it, yeah, it's a like yousaid, it's a constantly moving
target.
And you know, what is the flavorof the day today?
But the one thing that sitsbehind it all is if you're
(05:52):
building high quality, relevantcontent for the user, no matter
how they're they're finding itthrough search, whether it's
social media or paid ads or SEOor you know, LLMs or whatever it
is, they're still getting tothat piece of content.
And you got to focus on is thisa good piece of content or not?
Is it help the user?
(06:13):
Um, so I think the userexperience has changed, but like
what is the core of what you'reoffering?
Uh, that really should still bethe focus.
It shouldn't be about like allthe tips and tricks.
And that's why we're reallytrying to change the name.
Like the unknown secret centermarketing should have been
really uh like a uh a marketingpackage that you bought, like a
Frank Kern sort of you know, kitor something like that.
(06:35):
Uh, we never ended up launchingthat, even though a lot of
people have wanted us to dothat.
And who knows, maybe it's maybeit's still in the cards, but uh
it's really about umcommunicating effectively and
keeping your data clean so theLLMs understand what's going on
and who you are, just like thesearch engines.
And I mean, that's why the LMsdon't use Facebook because the
(06:58):
data is really noisy and there'sdifferent topics and you know
information's not beingorganized correctly.
I think that's what it reallycomes down to is clean data.
SPEAKER_03 (07:08):
So 100%.
I definitely agree with youthere.
If we did proper SEO, like yousaid, there's a lot of brands
that didn't do it because theywere getting traffic from
referrals or whatever it is,influencers you name it.
But if we had schema markup,really good FAQ section, built
it out really well, meaning theanswers were clear and concise,
(07:31):
then ChatGPT or Claude orGemini, GRAW can read it and
understand and summarize it tothe users.
Now, if you have a website thatdoesn't have an FAQ section,
that doesn't have uh justanswering questions that your
users have, because even inGoogle, they've already said
that before ChatGPT made madeall this change that you need to
be answering questions, you needto be answering questions.
(07:53):
People have questions, they goto Google ask questions, and
then they created people alsoasked.
I mean, we were seeing all ofthis, and we were answering
those questions that Google saidyou should be answering on
clients' website, right?
It's like it kind of sort ofcame to a conclusion that this
is where the world is going.
And now I think we just took itto another level because of the
(08:14):
fact that prompt, you can writeit incorrectly, put it in
different orders.
You can, you know, you can justbe really dumb about it and not
even act like you know whatyou're talking about in Chat GPT
or Claude or whatever it is,perplexity will find, they'll
read your mind and then give youan answer.
So at this moment, the websiteowner, the webmaster, has to do
(08:36):
even a greater job explainingwhat you do.
You have to be even more focusedon the quality, like you said.
It has to be even more granularabout what you who do you serve,
who do you not serve.
Put things in a table format,you know what I mean?
Do you help hospitality then sayyes?
Do you help manufacturingindustry say yes?
Because then Chat GPT reads thatand say yes, they do, because
(08:58):
that's the level of detailspeople are asking.
SPEAKER_02 (09:01):
Yeah, I mean, what what what is Google's like
right, right?
They had two missions.
One, not be evil and they removethat one.
And then the other one isorganizing all the information
in the world, right?
And so that's what SEOs aredoing is helping organize that
that information out there.
And that's what the LMs arelooking for, is nicely organized
information.
So if you can help them findthat information about you, you
(09:25):
you're more likely to show up.
And I think that that's reallywhat the whole debate is about
is you know, uh how how are youcommunicating?
Like, well, you know, also likeyou need to understand what your
brand is and who you serve.
And that's one of the thingsthat I I've seen with the LLMs
is like you can't be an experton everything and you can't
(09:46):
serve everyone, like pick afocus, right?
These are things that I feellike Google's been with the like
people also ask, like you said,have been leading us in this
direction for a long time.
They have the data, they seewhere the users are going, and
they're they're trying to helpuse SEOs to organize the
information on the web so thatthe right brands show up.
(10:08):
And so again, I I I mean, ifpeople ask me, like, what do you
do?
Right, because I mean, I don'teven think my wife understands
like what I do.
Like, I don't think she's like,what is SEO?
It's like you're organizinginformation online to make it
more useful.
And I think if that's like theguiding star in what you're
doing, it it it helps you answeruh what you should be doing and
(10:31):
what you shouldn't be doing andwhat what's the quality of what
you're doing and what you whatyou don't have it.
Like I can give you actually alot of examples of things that
you shouldn't be doing.
Um, and then you look at thepeople that are winning and you
go, okay, they're winning inyour category for what?
Why are they winning?
What are what are they doing?
Um, how are they positioningthemselves?
Like, I I again I I don't thinkthat there are any really
(10:54):
secrets.
Um, even LOMs can give youinsights, though, that that you
wouldn't normally see or trends.
And and so I think that how wework uh is is absolutely
changing.
Um, and taking a bunch offractured information, and that
and that's what search did,right?
Search fractured where peopleare finding information all over
(11:17):
the place, and then it's our jobto like grab it all and put it
back together, I guess.
SPEAKER_03 (11:23):
So yeah, like practical tips are we cannot
ignore any word on our websiteor any sections or the speed, uh
being mobile friendly and allthe things that we already
should be doing as good SEO.
I think AEO is just good SEOplus, you know, things that you
should be doing.
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
So so let's go into that.
Like, like all these differentdefinitions.
What what are the definitions ofSEO that you're using?
And then how would you definethem each?
I would just I would love tohear your vocabulary
terminology.
SPEAKER_03 (11:54):
I I I just I I love your um LLM visibility.
I think that's a really good wayof um describing it.
But the way that we've beenusing it, as probably people are
coining it, is AEO answer engineoptimization, because it's kind
of it includes Google, itincludes uh Chat GPT, Claude,
(12:16):
Gemini, and all of that.
Um you can do GEO, generativeengine optimization, you can do
something like that.
But I don't think it reallytruly matters as the industry,
like you said, is not clear onwhat it is that they want to
call it.
I know uh for a fact that we areno longer just going and
clicking on blue links.
That's where our uh clients arecoming to us and saying, hey, we
(12:40):
need to show up in Chat GPT.
So what we did is we built anengine, we've always had our own
technology that goes and cancreate the prompts that
customers are going to type inin these three different levels
top of funnel prompts, what arethe companies that are good at
X?
(13:01):
What are the top companies,right?
So we can go and get thoseprompts, and then we will run
those prompts and we canidentify which brands are being
shown as a result by thesesystems.
I get leads from ChatGPT everysingle day, so I create a lot of
training resources around this.
So I said, if you can figure outthe prompts, that's a half the
(13:22):
problem.
So top of funnel, middle offunnel, bottom of a funnel, and
then we find out the brands thatare being mentioned, and then we
can go and do the same good oldSEO research.
Why are they showing up?
And those are citationsessentially, and so we can
reverse engineer what they'reusing to get to those answers so
(13:42):
our clients, the people that youknow we're called to serve, can
actually get the same result.
It is reverse engineerable, butthere's the problem is there's
no systems out there who can gotrack the prompts, the results
of the prompts, what rankingthat the results are coming up
with, and how do you change therankings of these things?
Uh, but the good thing is it canbe changed.
We're doing it every single day.
(14:04):
And then once you have thatinformation, how do you track it
so that you can make sure yourclients are increasing, right,
in those answers?
They legitimately should havethe option to do it because they
are good businesses.
It's just that, like I said, alot of people ignored proper
SEO.
They could be a hundred milliondollar business, but the one
that ChatGPT shows could be alittle two million dollar
(14:25):
company with a great marketingguy like you.
You know what I'm saying?
So they're like, hey, they showup and they're freaking out how
are all these people findingyou?
But the$100 million company hasnever done anything, so they
just waited it out.
unknown (14:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
So I want to parse out some of the things that you
said.
Um, you know, first, um, like II do have a score um that that
I've kind of uh been puttingtogether, and I think that we're
on a similar line of thinkingfrom a LM visibility standpoint.
So really the LM visibility uhfor me is I've broken it apart
(15:00):
and saying, okay, there's thingsthat benefit SEO that also
benefit AI, and there's kind ofthis Venn diagram overlap.
Um, I'm really looking at, okay,let's just look at the LLMs and
what matters to them.
Now, certainly there's otherthings that you can do, but I
think that's where the GEO, the,you know, AEO, like like it gets
(15:22):
it gets messy and it getsblended.
And, you know, I would say GEO,see I AEO, GEO, like, you know,
like GEO is kind of, I wouldsay, more of what I'm doing, but
I'm really focusing on thegenerative engines.
I'm focused more on the LLMs andlike, okay, let's let's get a
score that that we can focus onon how well you're doing from
(15:45):
like an AI readiness standpoint,right?
And there's a lot of tools outthere um that are starting to
pop up.
There's a couple, like uh abuddy of mine just got into Y
Combinator, he's doing one ofthese tools as well, where they
basically um track the rankingsuh and and average it out uh
over the searches.
You know, that's not even like aperfect answer, in my opinion,
(16:05):
because your LLM, right?
And okay, so like if we if wescoop back a little bit and look
big picture, um LLMs don'tmatter today or not as much.
Now, I think they matter on thereputation management side
because I'm actually seeing someof the data from like similar
web and stuff.
When people go to a site, guesswhere they go right after the
(16:27):
site, where that where thatwhere the referral traffic's
going.
The referral traffic's goingfrom the site to the main source
of Chat GPT or you know, Geminior whatever perplexity.
So people are going to check outa site, they're finding it from
an ad or however you're findingit.
And some of them are finding itthrough the LLMs, but they're
going to check it with theirchat GPT or whatever they're
(16:48):
using.
There, I think everybody's gonnahave like a personal LLM that
they're gonna trust and believein.
Okay.
And I think that, you know,really, how do you get inside
the training data of that LLMthat you're talking to?
Like you you talked about,middle of the funnel, uh, top of
the funnel, bottom of thefunnel, I think is a great kind
of format and also a great kindof matching component of what
(17:10):
you're doing.
But the personalizationcomponent when you're doing
keyword tracking, even all thesetools that are coming out, how
like your LLM, if we did thesame prompt search and I did the
same prompt search based on myinstruction set of what saved
about me, is gonna get differentresults based on location, based
on interest, based on previoussearches.
(17:33):
And so attribution is probablyone of the biggest or hottest
topics out there of like, well,you know, are any of these
tools?
And all the major tools arecoming out with um new new ways
to track stuff, but already theold ways to track stuff was
horrible in itself.
Like, I mean, you can't trust,like I had to look at three
different tools and alwaystriangulate what the answer was
(17:55):
of what I'm gonna try to dobecause they all don't give you
the same data.
There's no consensus data ofactually what it is and where
it's pulling from.
And so, you know, I I would loveto understand more about, you
know, what what are the tools?
We're building a couple of toolsthat are not like we're not
trying to like we're not tryingto sell the tools, but we're
working on on the back end forstuff we're doing internally.
(18:17):
I would love to understand kindof what you're doing, some of
the use cases, maybe some of thecase studies that that you found
and just kind of share notes.
I think that that's what peoplelike on this call the most is
you get to share notes of what'sworking for people.
Um, and uh, you know, everythingused to be very uh close to the
best when you're doing thatscale.
You're like this strategy, Idon't want to get it out there.
(18:39):
But now I think everything'slike out there and there's
multiple points of view.
And um so yeah, so I would justlove to dig into that a little
bit more.
SPEAKER_03 (18:47):
Definitely.
I agree.
Everything is out there.
The problem is who do you trust?
What do you take because youonly have limited time to
implement?
Um, so right now I think thetool business is relatively
early.
There's just no tool out therethat's going to give you what
you need.
There's no SEMresh or HREFsthat's AE already or G already.
Um so that's my that's my takeon tools.
(19:09):
Uh we have a business that webuilt years and years ago.
It's called ClickEx.
Uh we built our own tool toonboard clients and do automated
reporting and things of thatnature to help us scale as a
business.
So we have every API that youcan imagine already connected to
it.
We have ChatGPT Perplexity, uh,we have uh you know email
marketing, you know, HubSpot,you name it.
(19:30):
And so we're able to just expandonto our own tool set that we
built, and that's how we're uhfiguring out what is happening
in the marketplace.
So we could run any and allsearches in Perplexity Claude,
ChatGPT, and actually see theanswers that it provides.
So then we can take that andthen say, hey, here's where my
customer is.
(19:50):
And if it's giving you one, two,three, and four, then we assume
that that is what it's giving toeverybody.
You're absolutely right.
My LLM knows me who I am, what Ilike.
Like and it tells me, Oh, you'rea health freak and you like to
eat healthy.
So here's your three options.
Because it doesn't tell me thepoor, you know, restaurants when
I ask for a restaurant.
It does it automatically.
(20:11):
But for the most part, I thinkwe can use the generic answers
to find out where our customersare and then figure out how uh
we can rank them.
We already do that today, and wealso can see one, two, three, or
four who are the brands that areshowing up.
The best part, I think, as anSEO, which maybe the general
public can't figure out, isgoing and finding the links that
(20:34):
those websites have wherethey're mentioned.
Those are the hard parts becauseChat GPT doesn't have anything
to go by like Google, so theyuse something else to figure out
why in what order do thesethings matter, right?
So there's the um the authorityengine, basically the
recommendation engine, and howdo we really figure out what how
(20:56):
do we uh influence this?
And so our research has been wehave to go get the same links
that the other guys that areshowing up, doesn't matter the
size of the company.
They have consistent citations,they have quality data, and so
the two things, just like SEOdid back in the day, good
quality links and frequent uhmentions of your brand in
different places, are the exactsame factors that they're using
(21:19):
it.
What is interesting, Matt, isthat just because you show up in
AI overview, you don'tautomatically show up in ChatGPT
or Perplexity.
We are seeing three differentvisibility percentages depending
on the same prompt.
Our companies are mentioneddifferent times.
So one of them, actually, fromour examples, Google is like the
(21:43):
worst.
ChatGPT keeps showing up moreand more particular brand, and
perplexity might be less.
And Google's like, I don't know,maybe Google has more brands to
show.
So our clients or people thatwe're working with aren't
showing up as much.
It hasn't been the oppositewhere you're showing up so much
in Google, not in other places.
So we were under the impressionthat they're taking the blue
(22:04):
links, just being honest, likeI'm being an old school SEO and
then just creating a new versionof answers.
You know what I mean?
Like, hey, people don't want toclick on that.
They want this, so let's justtake all of this and just give
it to them.
But no, they're not doing that.
They're giving me completelydifferent answers than what
Google's AI overview is doing.
SPEAKER_02 (22:24):
Yeah, and I think it's uh around the logic of how
they're figuring out what thevalue of a brand is.
And so now you're not thinkingabout uh and and like there's
been a couple studies, I believeit was AHRFs that uh came out
with the studies like somethinglike 21 or 27% of the the
answers that were being shownweren't even indexed.
(22:45):
Okay, it's like so so like Imean, we know Google doesn't
follow the no follow.
So like there, I mean, and Iasked Chat GBT this after I saw
that study, and it was like, no,like it has to be indexed, and
blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, okay, well, whereare where's all this data that
you're coming from?
And and a lot of it is gettingingested that might not be
(23:08):
indexable, right?
Like that's that's in the thetraining sets.
But how they're determining whatbrands to show is a completely
different like workflow orprocess.
Um I mean, they're like anintel, they're intelligent, like
they are intelligent and they'reusing intelligence like a really
intelligent person would do toresearch a brand.
(23:28):
So they're finding all kinds ofdifferent stuff.
They're looking at, they're notjust mapping Google.
Now, I think at the beginning,when they just opened up the
grounding trading sets, theystarted to do that because that
that's kind of the what you leanon.
Um, you're like, hey, Google,like I'll lean on that.
But I but I I'm seeing the LLMseven evolve into how they're
(23:48):
searching for information andpresenting information finding
it, which is really fascinatingto follow.
Um, I would love to hear morekind of case studies or um
things that you're seeing in thedata.
SPEAKER_03 (24:01):
Yeah, so um going back to it, it's it's
interesting because somesometimes if the company is well
known, they're going to getmentions more because there's
just a lot more citations ofthat brand out there and the
consistency is there.
And other times, if you're in avery niche market, like you
know, we have a client that's inthe uh they do training and and
(24:23):
and equipping you knowprofessionals for certain
certifications and all of thisstuff.
Nobody does that stuff.
They it's a it's not it's a veryniche, you know, HR people look
for it.
Those people are they get foundmore, but there's not a lot of
searches.
So it was easy to get thatparticular company to get found.
It's either you know some ofthese big uh testing firms or
(24:45):
boom, this consulting company,right?
So it wasn't hard for them.
We have uh executive searchcompanies that we're helping
with.
And and when you have a muddy,uh, I would say extremely
competitive industry, it'sharder to break through that
just like it is in Google,because the bigger the brand, as
you said earlier, it's going toit's going to be hard to beat
(25:06):
them.
So, what we're finding out ishow do we make a small brand
show up in these in thesethings?
The only thing we can controlare these brand mentions that
we're talking about, right?
So um, one of the things that wefound, believe it or not, this
is like pure internal testingand research, is this podcast
right here is considered media.
(25:28):
And so when I show up to thispodcast, it is actually being
transcribed.
If you put this on Apple or onSpotify or anywhere, YouTube,
it's getting transcribed andit's getting used in in AI
training.
And so, and it's consideredanother citation, another brand
mention.
And so, if you want to followthe latest of a brand, it's just
(25:49):
follow the founder, like you,and then listen to what they're
saying.
So I think ChatGPT is going tohave better answers, or Claude
or Perplex, you name it, becauseit's actually consolidating all
these things where it's Googlewasn't doing that.
It's actually studying you and Ias a brand and following us
around and studying everythingthat we put out there and
updating its own.
Does that make sense?
(26:09):
Yeah.
Research because we'veinfluenced the answers or we've
influenced the order in whichthe companies are showing up by
showing up in media.
So we've we've then begungetting our customers on
podcasts.
Like you like, it's not a clearanswer.
You know, I wish I could justsay, hey, you do these three
things, we have our ownframework.
But it's things like that thatI'm sharing that we're seeing is
(26:32):
influencing the results.
So a press release back in theday mattered because it was like
a good quality link for like aday or something, but a press
release also is media, and youcan put in.
So I have a client who launcheda brand new YouTube channel, and
there was no mention of thiscompany in ChatGPT after they
launched a YouTube channel.
They put out a couple of videos,you go to Chat GPT.
Well, we put out a press releaseabout the channel and all of
(26:53):
this.
Then you go to ChatGPT and itknows everything about this this
YouTube channel.
So we're like, hey, I thinkwe're trying to figure out how
they're doing it.
And the good thing is, I thinkit's the exciting part, that
they wrote an algorithm.
So just like Google had analgorithm, if you can figure
that out, right?
Like it's not impossible tofigure it out, but I think it's
(27:14):
easier than actually people makeit out to be.
So we're doing good old outreachspray mentions, right?
Quality press mentions, um, andand podcast interviews and
things that we can influencethat are then able to then
change what they know about you.
If LLMs don't know about whatyou do, because you give it more
(27:36):
no information, you don't havestructured data on your website,
you don't have any content,right?
You don't have schema markup,you're not answering questions,
then it doesn't matter.
We're not going to show up.
Those are like your foundationalthings.
And then from there, you justgot to go keep working on
creating content on YouTube andmaking sure the same exact
answers are being done.
It's a lot more contentcreation.
However, it's it's totallychangeable.
(27:58):
And we're seeing and we'retracking every day.
So we're we're seeing how theanswers are being influenced by
the activity that the brand isdoing.
SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
Yeah, I think that was great, great points.
I think that uh share a voice uhin media is is key.
And the easiest way for mostbrands to do that is YouTube.
You saw in the big announcementfrom Google, they pivoted to
YouTube.
I mean, they again they seewhere these things are going.
I think that they're uh under alot of pressure to come up with
new subscription models with uhads that are are kind of moving
(28:31):
away and they're trying to.
I mean, I I don't know if we'regonna see ads in LLMs.
I I mean they say they're not,but I I I you know it remains to
be seen.
Um, you know, I I think pressreleases are phenomenal uh as
well.
Uh I think there's differentplaces to get citations and what
the training sets look like, um,a lot of educational-based
(28:53):
stuff.
One of the interesting thingsthat um I would consider maybe a
pro tip, it was something thatthat we learned recently as we
were building out a new site,was alums don't pick up iframe
embeds.
Okay.
So, how many websites out therehave a lot of really important
content in an iframe embed?
And well, it's not a schemaunless you, you know, if unless
(29:16):
you're labeling it, unless maybeyou have some schema markup
referencing what it is, uhthat's not going to show up.
So schemas, you know, peopledebate on whether schemas
appointed to structured data.
It helps uh build trust.
And that's what Google's aboutis is is building that that that
trust.
So I I think that there's a lotof stuff that that's changing
(29:36):
and it questions yourassumptions.
And like I I love to like knowwhat I know and then go like,
let me go test it.
Let me go see if something'sdifferent, let me go kind of
tweak it, let me go see what seewhat happens.
And so I'm really enjoying uhthe discovery process that you
know everything's different,everything's uh everything's
(29:57):
new.
It's kind of like an unexploredland.
Um I I've I've done a coupleposts.
Uh I have a newsletter onLinkedIn that I need to probably
uh do a little bit moreconsistently.
But you know, I I did the postabout um, it's kind of like you
know, Columbus Day, we just hadThanksgiving.
I know this will be released uhprobably in January, but we're
(30:18):
doing this right afterThanksgiving.
Um it's new land, it's newterritory that that is
unexposed.
Now, certain people just uhinherited it, but if they're not
really doing the things theyneed to do, they're not gonna
be, they're not gonna maintainthat ownership.
And um also you can't juststumble on this anymore.
(30:39):
Like it, it's it's very umintentional, I think a lot of uh
a lot of what's happening.
Uh you've made some reallyinteresting points, which uh,
you know, doing a press releasebefore a campaign that you
launch is is something that'spretty standard, but seeing that
in the data of you have aYouTube channel and then you're
(31:01):
calling attention to it.
Like there's a a paper outthere, uh Attention is
everything that kind of kickedthis whole thing off uh with the
LLMs.
You're calling attention tothat.
And then LLMs are going andchecking it out, kind of swarm
theory, and then they're goingand checking out the podcast,
and then they're indexing thewhole podcast, and it gets the
training data is that's that's athat's a super interesting
(31:21):
insight.
SPEAKER_03 (31:22):
Every single one of our clients um automatically are
getting this level of support.
It's not an add-on.
You don't go and say, Oh, I wantthe traditional SEO, and then
can you give me this otherthing?
We can't.
There's no way it's allintertwined.
Um, so we have the opportunityto test all of our theories
against all of our existingclients, as well as the ones
(31:44):
that are coming in uh by meputting out a lot of resources
and content and you know, justwhat we're finding every single
day.
Um and it's been interesting tosay the least, because no one's
ever, this is a new territory,even for the the experts of the
experts, they're still figuringit out.
Uh so back to your point, Matt,uh experimentation is what we
do.
We've always done that.
(32:04):
We never knew anything until wecan prove something.
Uh and then and eventually itstopped working.
And I think the same exact thingis gonna happen.
Um, I believe that marketers aregoing to ruin Chat GPT because
we now know what the freak weneed to do.
And that means that we can'ttrust it like we used to trust.
And right now it's probablyclean, but eventually, as you
know, everybody can figure outhow to show their brand up
(32:27):
there, and so it's going tobecome more harder, and some
other thing is gonna pop up tomake it harder or to to actually
have the quality data.
The the the more interestingthing, I think, is our customers
do not care um how you what youdo, they want their answers.
So I think we need to solve forthe customer.
We are, and I don't want to bethe guy that's that's got the
(32:48):
secret to showing up in ChatGPT.
That's not the that's not thething.
We you and I have clients thathave hundreds of millions of
companies out there, they have aspecific type of customer
they're trying to serve.
They don't need everybody, theyjust need the kind of people if
you're if you make some sort ofan engine for a uh a plane that
only fits these types of planes,that's the only kind of
customers that are really gonnahelp you.
(33:09):
You don't need everybody elsecalling you.
But the problem is you need toinform these LLMs what you do
and who you do it for and thespecificity of your services.
And and and so for smallbusinesses, you can only serve a
small geographic target.
So somebody in Nebraska isn'tgonna help you if you're in
Texas.
You don't need the traffic fromTexas or from somewhere else.
(33:29):
So I think if we could just honein on there's enough money to be
made for everybody.
That's number one.
There's no like you're not gonnamiss out on it.
But what we are going to missout on if you don't have enough
information about you and whoyou want to have as a customer,
and if the LLMs don't know, itcannot answer the prompt.
So every time we're doing this,we measure the visibility before
we start working with people,and then we look at the
(33:51):
visibility after we startworking with people.
It's often that their own brandisn't mentioned for the thing
that you do.
So if you're a real estateagent, I have just brought on a
real estate client in Southwhere they are, they don't show
up in the town.
They're selling luxury homes inthe town that they serve for I
don't know how long.
They don't show up.
(34:12):
And you know why?
Because every real estate agenthas a cookie cutter website,
Matt.
You know this, everybody's gotthe same thing, some kind of MLS
search.
There's no schema markup,there's no content, there's
nothing about what you do.
They just people that know yougo to your website.
It was never a funnel, it wasnever a top of funnel, middle of
funnel, and then, oh, I want tobuy a house.
(34:32):
There was always, like you said,some iframe or something of MLS.
And so they're like, Salman, Ican't, I can't have this because
if I sell one million dollarhouse, it is enough to pay for
your services for the whole yearor whatever it is, right?
Like, like, like I was like,Yeah, you're right.
You know, it's like, do you seelike how much money is on the
(34:53):
table?
If you don't show up, it's it'stens and thousands of dollars
per month that you could bemissing out because you didn't
put anything about you on theinternet because you know, word
of mouth, referrals, andwhatever is how you relied on
it.
And that person was like reallyfrustrated because this is the
reality, this is the newreality.
SPEAKER_02 (35:13):
You know, I I think it uh marketers should do a
better job of when they'representing to clients on what
the lost opportunity cost is ofnot uh utilizing.
And I think you hit on that.
One of the things that I that Istarted to think of when you
were talking, and we're gettingclose to the end of the pocket,
so I want to give you time.
(35:33):
Yeah, I know.
This has been a greatdiscussion, and uh I would love
to keep going.
Um, I just got a hard stop here,but uh essentially uh I was on a
speaking tour um and there wasuh like a VP of Coca-Cola.
I don't I don't remember hername, but uh she said something.
She said a focus beam of lightattracts more moths in the
(35:56):
darkness.
Okay.
And everybody understands thatthat analogy that when I talk to
a lot of brands, they're tryingto be everything to everybody
and they're trying to serve toobig of an area or a specific
area.
And Google looks at trust.
Google's like, do you reallyhave clients in this area?
Do you really serve this area?
(36:17):
Can you really do all thesethings excellent?
Because I want to give the bestabsolute answer.
And so that's what I'm seeinghappen with LLMs as a multiple,
is you need to get really,really clear who you are and
what you do and who you serve.
And you need to build contentaround that based on the
customer journey, based on thetarget persona that you're going
after.
(36:38):
And and the more you getfocused, you can amplify that
focus, but you want to, like allof us, want to get clients that
fit the box of where we servethe clients the best, the type
of customers or the even thetype of um people to people,
because people do business withpeople that we want to work
with.
Like trying to serve everybody,um you're gonna be that jack of
(36:59):
all trades, the expert of none,like that that analogy.
And I'm not saying that peoplearen't experts in multiple
things, but you got to provethat to the LLMs, you got to
prove that to the searchengines.
And it's a lot easier to startsmall and expand out, just like
uh the GMBs do.
So um I just kind of wanted tohighlight that for everybody is
having that focus beam alight umuh of what you do uh clarifies
(37:24):
it for search engines and LLMsalike.
Um Solomon, I really liked theinsights you shared.
I would love to have you backon.
We can talk further uh as thingscontinue to progress.
Um, how do people find some ofthese resources, follow you, get
in touch with you, um, hire you?
SPEAKER_03 (37:42):
Absolutely.
No, I'm happy to give all myresources away.
I actually create a lot ofresources around this very
thing, AI visibility.
Uh, I put a 45-minute freetraining out on the internet.
It's just a simple website theycan go to 10x10x.info.
Literally, it's free.
You don't have to do anything,you don't have to buy anything.
(38:03):
The reason I do that is I wantto make sure that small
businesses, those companies thatdesperately need the help, maybe
they can't afford a consultantor whatever else, they should
know what to do so they canactually do and get to a place
where they can start paying forservices because there's so many
business that are going to belost.
It's gonna be like internet allover again.
Where do I start?
How do I do it?
You know, people thought talk tome and say, Well, I can go train
(38:25):
it myself.
I said, You can't.
They don't take what you and Isay and and change the the
training.
It doesn't do that.
SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
People were trying to talk to AI in the beginning
to like make it remember themand and it doesn't, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_03 (38:39):
So so that's what I mean, right?
So things there's some justthink simple things we want to
add value to as many people aspossible.
So they do that, they can goconnect with me on social media,
but it's more about uh educatingyourself, learning, finding the
right people to help you basedon the size of your businesses.
But yeah, so if they want toemail me, happy to help.
It's all on my that website,10x.info.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
Awesome.
Well, uh, I'll put your links inthe show notes as well.
Thank you so much uh for comingon.
Solomon really enjoyed it.
Uh, everyone, if you want togrow your business with the
largest, most powerful tool onthe planet.
Well, I used to say theinternet, but maybe it's LLMs.
I don't know.
I think that we're gonna have anuh AI revolution here.
Um, reach out to EWR for morerevenue in your business.
(39:22):
Uh, thank you so much forlistening.
If you liked anything we said,please leave a comment.
I do read all the comments,please leave a review, follow
us.
Um, check us out on YouTube.
It's really, like I said, it'sreally sad.
We need to do some stuff there,but we're we're working hard to
uh make that quality content foryou.
We got shorts and all that sortof thing.
So I'll and we'll give you someof those to share as well.
Uh so thank you so much,everybody.
(39:44):
We appreciate it.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:16):
Howdy, welcome back to another fun filled episode of
The Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
We are working on a new intro,so apologies, everyone.
We have rebranded.
We are also moving on toYouTube.
So if you uh would go check usout on YouTube, it's pretty
pitiful, uh, to be honest.
I would love a review.
Uh, if you're getting value fromthis podcast, we've been doing
(00:36):
it 12 plus years.
Thank you so much for being hereright now.
We're doing a series with anumber of different agency
owners on all the differentthings that are changing uh
within the SEO landscape.
So I wanted to bring on anotherSEO owner, SEO SEO agency owner,
uh Solomon Timothy.
Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_03 (00:54):
Thank you so much, Matt.
Super excited to be here.
And I love talking to veteranslike yourself.
So this is gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00):
Yeah, well, why don't you just kind of set the
table on what you're seeing uhin in the uh changing world of
digital marketing and SEO, andwe'll kind of get started from
there.
SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
Yeah, it's funny.
You've been doing this for 10plus years, so are we.
And I was just saying uh off thestage that every year of this
last 10 years we've been seeingchange.
It's it hasn't stopped, right?
So I don't see this anydifferent from being in the in
the in the weeds.
We know that every year Googlealways rolled out a different
update.
So everything we did, we werelike, oh, screw, that doesn't
(01:33):
work anymore.
Throw it away.
We need long form content.
Oh no, we don't need thatanymore.
We need question answer content.
Oh, we don't do that anymore.
We we do this now, right?
Like we need we it's not aboutthe it's not about the quantity
of the backlings, it's theintent of the backlink.
It's this, it's that, it's zeroclick.
It's like, okay, like did weever get a day off?
(01:53):
You know?
No.
We didn't get a week off.
So so right now, what we'redealing with is fundamentally
the way that we uh you knowsearch or look up information
has changed.
And I think it's a naturalprogression of uh we got tired
of clicking on the blue linksand doing our own assessments
and our own summaries in ourbrains on well, I clicked on 10
(02:16):
links and 10 things differentthings came up, and nine out of
the 10 was this.
So I guess you know we werecoming to conclusions on our
own.
Now Chat GPT will just summarizethe 10 blue links and tell you
one sentence what it is.
So, why would we go and do whatwe used to do, right?
So there's a fundamental shiftin the way that we um change.
We change the way we we look upinformation, we make buying
(02:39):
decisions.
So uh to kind of give you whatI'm seeing every day is that the
searches became prompts, andprompts are now in three
different forms, right?
The top of funnel prompts, themiddle of funnel prompts, and
then the bottom of funnelprompts.
And then we talk about long tailkeywords.
Well, we have long tail prompts,and and there's no two people
searching the same.
(03:00):
It has become so different thatif if you're listening to this
podcast, you're probably the onepercent of people that know
what's going on with theindustry.
You know that sitting aroundanymore is not gonna work.
We have to change.
We need to create a differentexperience so that LLMs can see
our content, right?
(03:21):
Can understand what we'retalking about, and then
hopefully put us in the top ofthe little summary of who to
work with if they have thisproblem.
SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
Yeah, I I can tell you from the clients that I've
been working with uh that havelike reached out to us.
Um, we've landed some really bigclients recently uh at EWR,
which is the sponsor of thispodcast, um, that keeps it
going.
So thank you for 12 plus yearsof of sponsoring and and funding
this.
Um we have a lot of people thatused to run a lot of paid ads to
(03:56):
landing pages without videos oranything on those landing pages
or AB testing it.
And that used to work reallywell.
You could just throw a lot ofmoney at stuff, you could run
ads to landing pages.
Google was like the biggest partof the bucket.
Maybe you run a little bit ofFacebook ads, maybe do some
retargeting.
You know, you're talking aboutbuilding a little bit of funnel
(04:17):
here.
Maybe you're dripping emails,maybe you're not, or text
messages.
Um, and SEO was typically anafterthought uh from a lot of
the clients that we're seeingrecently.
Uh and and now you're trying toplay catch up of not just like
years of not doing SEO, but nowyou're into entity SEO, you're
(04:38):
into GIO, you're into AEO.
Like, you know, I I I've kind ofcoined the term LM visibility
because I I think AI visibilityis like the broader kind of
subset of that.
And then I think it's gonna bemultimodal uh in the future.
Like it's gonna be on anydevice.
Like, how do you get in front ofpeople?
But it but it's all reallyabout, and and where I started,
(04:59):
if you look at like some of thebooks I've written, it was all
about personal branding.
It was about branding.
It was and and so it's likeamplifying that effect of of who
you are as an entity and thenhow you do that and the
execution of that is where youget into the tactics.
And you know, it's still indebate.
I mean, my LinkedIn uh it justblows up with just different
(05:20):
people on different sides oflike SEO is dead, you know, it's
all GIO, it's just the samething, it's a little bit
different.
Like everybody's fighting aboutit.
SPEAKER_01 (05:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
And I I and it constantly is changing, right?
The LLMs are adapting, they'relearning, like they're leaning
on Google, then they're not, andthen you know, Reddit's
important, then it's not.
Like it, yeah, it's a like yousaid, it's a constantly moving
target.
And you know, what is the flavorof the day today?
But the one thing that sitsbehind it all is if you're
(05:52):
building high quality, relevantcontent for the user, no matter
how they're they're finding itthrough search, whether it's
social media or paid ads or SEOor you know, LLMs or whatever it
is, they're still getting tothat piece of content.
And you got to focus on is thisa good piece of content or not?
Is it help the user?
(06:13):
Um, so I think the userexperience has changed, but like
what is the core of what you'reoffering?
Uh, that really should still bethe focus.
It shouldn't be about like allthe tips and tricks.
And that's why we're reallytrying to change the name.
Like the unknown secret centermarketing should have been
really uh like a uh a marketingpackage that you bought, like a
Frank Kern sort of you know, kitor something like that.
(06:35):
Uh, we never ended up launchingthat, even though a lot of
people have wanted us to dothat.
And who knows, maybe it's maybeit's still in the cards, but uh
it's really about umcommunicating effectively and
keeping your data clean so theLLMs understand what's going on
and who you are, just like thesearch engines.
And I mean, that's why the LMsdon't use Facebook because the
(06:58):
data is really noisy and there'sdifferent topics and you know
information's not beingorganized correctly.
I think that's what it reallycomes down to is clean data.
SPEAKER_03 (07:08):
So 100%.
I definitely agree with youthere.
If we did proper SEO, like yousaid, there's a lot of brands
that didn't do it because theywere getting traffic from
referrals or whatever it is,influencers you name it.
But if we had schema markup,really good FAQ section, built
it out really well, meaning theanswers were clear and concise,
(07:31):
then ChatGPT or Claude orGemini, GRAW can read it and
understand and summarize it tothe users.
Now, if you have a website thatdoesn't have an FAQ section,
that doesn't have uh justanswering questions that your
users have, because even inGoogle, they've already said
that before ChatGPT made madeall this change that you need to
be answering questions, you needto be answering questions.
(07:53):
People have questions, they goto Google ask questions, and
then they created people alsoasked.
I mean, we were seeing all ofthis, and we were answering
those questions that Google saidyou should be answering on
clients' website, right?
It's like it kind of sort ofcame to a conclusion that this
is where the world is going.
And now I think we just took itto another level because of the
(08:14):
fact that prompt, you can writeit incorrectly, put it in
different orders.
You can, you know, you can justbe really dumb about it and not
even act like you know whatyou're talking about in Chat GPT
or Claude or whatever it is,perplexity will find, they'll
read your mind and then give youan answer.
So at this moment, the websiteowner, the webmaster, has to do
(08:36):
even a greater job explainingwhat you do.
You have to be even more focusedon the quality, like you said.
It has to be even more granularabout what you who do you serve,
who do you not serve.
Put things in a table format,you know what I mean?
Do you help hospitality then sayyes?
Do you help manufacturingindustry say yes?
Because then Chat GPT reads thatand say yes, they do, because
(08:58):
that's the level of detailspeople are asking.
SPEAKER_02 (09:01):
Yeah, I mean, what what what is Google's like
right, right?
They had two missions.
One, not be evil and they removethat one.
And then the other one isorganizing all the information
in the world, right?
And so that's what SEOs aredoing is helping organize that
that information out there.
And that's what the LMs arelooking for, is nicely organized
information.
So if you can help them findthat information about you, you
(09:25):
you're more likely to show up.
And I think that that's reallywhat the whole debate is about
is you know, uh how how are youcommunicating?
Like, well, you know, also likeyou need to understand what your
brand is and who you serve.
And that's one of the thingsthat I I've seen with the LLMs
is like you can't be an experton everything and you can't
(09:46):
serve everyone, like pick afocus, right?
These are things that I feellike Google's been with the like
people also ask, like you said,have been leading us in this
direction for a long time.
They have the data, they seewhere the users are going, and
they're they're trying to helpuse SEOs to organize the
information on the web so thatthe right brands show up.
(10:08):
And so again, I I I mean, ifpeople ask me, like, what do you
do?
Right, because I mean, I don'teven think my wife understands
like what I do.
Like, I don't think she's like,what is SEO?
It's like you're organizinginformation online to make it
more useful.
And I think if that's like theguiding star in what you're
doing, it it it helps you answeruh what you should be doing and
(10:31):
what you shouldn't be doing andwhat what's the quality of what
you're doing and what you whatyou don't have it.
Like I can give you actually alot of examples of things that
you shouldn't be doing.
Um, and then you look at thepeople that are winning and you
go, okay, they're winning inyour category for what?
Why are they winning?
What are what are they doing?
Um, how are they positioningthemselves?
Like, I I again I I don't thinkthat there are any really
(10:54):
secrets.
Um, even LOMs can give youinsights, though, that that you
wouldn't normally see or trends.
And and so I think that how wework uh is is absolutely
changing.
Um, and taking a bunch offractured information, and that
and that's what search did,right?
Search fractured where peopleare finding information all over
(11:17):
the place, and then it's our jobto like grab it all and put it
back together, I guess.
SPEAKER_03 (11:23):
So yeah, like practical tips are we cannot
ignore any word on our websiteor any sections or the speed, uh
being mobile friendly and allthe things that we already
should be doing as good SEO.
I think AEO is just good SEOplus, you know, things that you
should be doing.
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
So so let's go into that.
Like, like all these differentdefinitions.
What what are the definitions ofSEO that you're using?
And then how would you definethem each?
I would just I would love tohear your vocabulary
terminology.
SPEAKER_03 (11:54):
I I I just I I love your um LLM visibility.
I think that's a really good wayof um describing it.
But the way that we've beenusing it, as probably people are
coining it, is AEO answer engineoptimization, because it's kind
of it includes Google, itincludes uh Chat GPT, Claude,
(12:16):
Gemini, and all of that.
Um you can do GEO, generativeengine optimization, you can do
something like that.
But I don't think it reallytruly matters as the industry,
like you said, is not clear onwhat it is that they want to
call it.
I know uh for a fact that we areno longer just going and
clicking on blue links.
That's where our uh clients arecoming to us and saying, hey, we
(12:40):
need to show up in Chat GPT.
So what we did is we built anengine, we've always had our own
technology that goes and cancreate the prompts that
customers are going to type inin these three different levels
top of funnel prompts, what arethe companies that are good at
X?
(13:01):
What are the top companies,right?
So we can go and get thoseprompts, and then we will run
those prompts and we canidentify which brands are being
shown as a result by thesesystems.
I get leads from ChatGPT everysingle day, so I create a lot of
training resources around this.
So I said, if you can figure outthe prompts, that's a half the
(13:22):
problem.
So top of funnel, middle offunnel, bottom of a funnel, and
then we find out the brands thatare being mentioned, and then we
can go and do the same good oldSEO research.
Why are they showing up?
And those are citationsessentially, and so we can
reverse engineer what they'reusing to get to those answers so
(13:42):
our clients, the people that youknow we're called to serve, can
actually get the same result.
It is reverse engineerable, butthere's the problem is there's
no systems out there who can gotrack the prompts, the results
of the prompts, what rankingthat the results are coming up
with, and how do you change therankings of these things?
Uh, but the good thing is it canbe changed.
We're doing it every single day.
(14:04):
And then once you have thatinformation, how do you track it
so that you can make sure yourclients are increasing, right,
in those answers?
They legitimately should havethe option to do it because they
are good businesses.
It's just that, like I said, alot of people ignored proper
SEO.
They could be a hundred milliondollar business, but the one
that ChatGPT shows could be alittle two million dollar
(14:25):
company with a great marketingguy like you.
You know what I'm saying?
So they're like, hey, they showup and they're freaking out how
are all these people findingyou?
But the$100 million company hasnever done anything, so they
just waited it out.
unknown (14:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
So I want to parse out some of the things that you
said.
Um, you know, first, um, like II do have a score um that that
I've kind of uh been puttingtogether, and I think that we're
on a similar line of thinkingfrom a LM visibility standpoint.
So really the LM visibility uhfor me is I've broken it apart
(15:00):
and saying, okay, there's thingsthat benefit SEO that also
benefit AI, and there's kind ofthis Venn diagram overlap.
Um, I'm really looking at, okay,let's just look at the LLMs and
what matters to them.
Now, certainly there's otherthings that you can do, but I
think that's where the GEO, the,you know, AEO, like like it gets
(15:22):
it gets messy and it getsblended.
And, you know, I would say GEO,see I AEO, GEO, like, you know,
like GEO is kind of, I wouldsay, more of what I'm doing, but
I'm really focusing on thegenerative engines.
I'm focused more on the LLMs andlike, okay, let's let's get a
score that that we can focus onon how well you're doing from
(15:45):
like an AI readiness standpoint,right?
And there's a lot of tools outthere um that are starting to
pop up.
There's a couple, like uh abuddy of mine just got into Y
Combinator, he's doing one ofthese tools as well, where they
basically um track the rankingsuh and and average it out uh
over the searches.
You know, that's not even like aperfect answer, in my opinion,
(16:05):
because your LLM, right?
And okay, so like if we if wescoop back a little bit and look
big picture, um LLMs don'tmatter today or not as much.
Now, I think they matter on thereputation management side
because I'm actually seeing someof the data from like similar
web and stuff.
When people go to a site, guesswhere they go right after the
(16:27):
site, where that where thatwhere the referral traffic's
going.
The referral traffic's goingfrom the site to the main source
of Chat GPT or you know, Geminior whatever perplexity.
So people are going to check outa site, they're finding it from
an ad or however you're findingit.
And some of them are finding itthrough the LLMs, but they're
going to check it with theirchat GPT or whatever they're
(16:48):
using.
There, I think everybody's gonnahave like a personal LLM that
they're gonna trust and believein.
Okay.
And I think that, you know,really, how do you get inside
the training data of that LLMthat you're talking to?
Like you you talked about,middle of the funnel, uh, top of
the funnel, bottom of thefunnel, I think is a great kind
of format and also a great kindof matching component of what
(17:10):
you're doing.
But the personalizationcomponent when you're doing
keyword tracking, even all thesetools that are coming out, how
like your LLM, if we did thesame prompt search and I did the
same prompt search based on myinstruction set of what saved
about me, is gonna get differentresults based on location, based
on interest, based on previoussearches.
(17:33):
And so attribution is probablyone of the biggest or hottest
topics out there of like, well,you know, are any of these
tools?
And all the major tools arecoming out with um new new ways
to track stuff, but already theold ways to track stuff was
horrible in itself.
Like, I mean, you can't trust,like I had to look at three
different tools and alwaystriangulate what the answer was
(17:55):
of what I'm gonna try to dobecause they all don't give you
the same data.
There's no consensus data ofactually what it is and where
it's pulling from.
And so, you know, I I would loveto understand more about, you
know, what what are the tools?
We're building a couple of toolsthat are not like we're not
trying to like we're not tryingto sell the tools, but we're
working on on the back end forstuff we're doing internally.
(18:17):
I would love to understand kindof what you're doing, some of
the use cases, maybe some of thecase studies that that you found
and just kind of share notes.
I think that that's what peoplelike on this call the most is
you get to share notes of what'sworking for people.
Um, and uh, you know, everythingused to be very uh close to the
best when you're doing thatscale.
You're like this strategy, Idon't want to get it out there.
(18:39):
But now I think everything'slike out there and there's
multiple points of view.
And um so yeah, so I would justlove to dig into that a little
bit more.
SPEAKER_03 (18:47):
Definitely.
I agree.
Everything is out there.
The problem is who do you trust?
What do you take because youonly have limited time to
implement?
Um, so right now I think thetool business is relatively
early.
There's just no tool out therethat's going to give you what
you need.
There's no SEMresh or HREFsthat's AE already or G already.
Um so that's my that's my takeon tools.
(19:09):
Uh we have a business that webuilt years and years ago.
It's called ClickEx.
Uh we built our own tool toonboard clients and do automated
reporting and things of thatnature to help us scale as a
business.
So we have every API that youcan imagine already connected to
it.
We have ChatGPT Perplexity, uh,we have uh you know email
marketing, you know, HubSpot,you name it.
(19:30):
And so we're able to just expandonto our own tool set that we
built, and that's how we're uhfiguring out what is happening
in the marketplace.
So we could run any and allsearches in Perplexity Claude,
ChatGPT, and actually see theanswers that it provides.
So then we can take that andthen say, hey, here's where my
customer is.
(19:50):
And if it's giving you one, two,three, and four, then we assume
that that is what it's giving toeverybody.
You're absolutely right.
My LLM knows me who I am, what Ilike.
Like and it tells me, Oh, you'rea health freak and you like to
eat healthy.
So here's your three options.
Because it doesn't tell me thepoor, you know, restaurants when
I ask for a restaurant.
It does it automatically.
(20:11):
But for the most part, I thinkwe can use the generic answers
to find out where our customersare and then figure out how uh
we can rank them.
We already do that today, and wealso can see one, two, three, or
four who are the brands that areshowing up.
The best part, I think, as anSEO, which maybe the general
public can't figure out, isgoing and finding the links that
(20:34):
those websites have wherethey're mentioned.
Those are the hard parts becauseChat GPT doesn't have anything
to go by like Google, so theyuse something else to figure out
why in what order do thesethings matter, right?
So there's the um the authorityengine, basically the
recommendation engine, and howdo we really figure out what how
(20:56):
do we uh influence this?
And so our research has been wehave to go get the same links
that the other guys that areshowing up, doesn't matter the
size of the company.
They have consistent citations,they have quality data, and so
the two things, just like SEOdid back in the day, good
quality links and frequent uhmentions of your brand in
different places, are the exactsame factors that they're using
(21:19):
it.
What is interesting, Matt, isthat just because you show up in
AI overview, you don'tautomatically show up in ChatGPT
or Perplexity.
We are seeing three differentvisibility percentages depending
on the same prompt.
Our companies are mentioneddifferent times.
So one of them, actually, fromour examples, Google is like the
(21:43):
worst.
ChatGPT keeps showing up moreand more particular brand, and
perplexity might be less.
And Google's like, I don't know,maybe Google has more brands to
show.
So our clients or people thatwe're working with aren't
showing up as much.
It hasn't been the oppositewhere you're showing up so much
in Google, not in other places.
So we were under the impressionthat they're taking the blue
(22:04):
links, just being honest, likeI'm being an old school SEO and
then just creating a new versionof answers.
You know what I mean?
Like, hey, people don't want toclick on that.
They want this, so let's justtake all of this and just give
it to them.
But no, they're not doing that.
They're giving me completelydifferent answers than what
Google's AI overview is doing.
SPEAKER_02 (22:24):
Yeah, and I think it's uh around the logic of how
they're figuring out what thevalue of a brand is.
And so now you're not thinkingabout uh and and like there's
been a couple studies, I believeit was AHRFs that uh came out
with the studies like somethinglike 21 or 27% of the the
answers that were being shownweren't even indexed.
(22:45):
Okay, it's like so so like Imean, we know Google doesn't
follow the no follow.
So like there, I mean, and Iasked Chat GBT this after I saw
that study, and it was like, no,like it has to be indexed, and
blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, okay, well, whereare where's all this data that
you're coming from?
And and a lot of it is gettingingested that might not be
(23:08):
indexable, right?
Like that's that's in the thetraining sets.
But how they're determining whatbrands to show is a completely
different like workflow orprocess.
Um I mean, they're like anintel, they're intelligent, like
they are intelligent and they'reusing intelligence like a really
intelligent person would do toresearch a brand.
(23:28):
So they're finding all kinds ofdifferent stuff.
They're looking at, they're notjust mapping Google.
Now, I think at the beginning,when they just opened up the
grounding trading sets, theystarted to do that because that
that's kind of the what you leanon.
Um, you're like, hey, Google,like I'll lean on that.
But I but I I'm seeing the LLMseven evolve into how they're
(23:48):
searching for information andpresenting information finding
it, which is really fascinatingto follow.
Um, I would love to hear morekind of case studies or um
things that you're seeing in thedata.
SPEAKER_03 (24:01):
Yeah, so um going back to it, it's it's
interesting because somesometimes if the company is well
known, they're going to getmentions more because there's
just a lot more citations ofthat brand out there and the
consistency is there.
And other times, if you're in avery niche market, like you
know, we have a client that's inthe uh they do training and and
(24:23):
and equipping you knowprofessionals for certain
certifications and all of thisstuff.
Nobody does that stuff.
They it's a it's not it's a veryniche, you know, HR people look
for it.
Those people are they get foundmore, but there's not a lot of
searches.
So it was easy to get thatparticular company to get found.
It's either you know some ofthese big uh testing firms or
(24:45):
boom, this consulting company,right?
So it wasn't hard for them.
We have uh executive searchcompanies that we're helping
with.
And and when you have a muddy,uh, I would say extremely
competitive industry, it'sharder to break through that
just like it is in Google,because the bigger the brand, as
you said earlier, it's going toit's going to be hard to beat
(25:06):
them.
So, what we're finding out ishow do we make a small brand
show up in these in thesethings?
The only thing we can controlare these brand mentions that
we're talking about, right?
So um, one of the things that wefound, believe it or not, this
is like pure internal testingand research, is this podcast
right here is considered media.
(25:28):
And so when I show up to thispodcast, it is actually being
transcribed.
If you put this on Apple or onSpotify or anywhere, YouTube,
it's getting transcribed andit's getting used in in AI
training.
And so, and it's consideredanother citation, another brand
mention.
And so, if you want to followthe latest of a brand, it's just
(25:49):
follow the founder, like you,and then listen to what they're
saying.
So I think ChatGPT is going tohave better answers, or Claude
or Perplex, you name it, becauseit's actually consolidating all
these things where it's Googlewasn't doing that.
It's actually studying you and Ias a brand and following us
around and studying everythingthat we put out there and
updating its own.
Does that make sense?
(26:09):
Yeah.
Research because we'veinfluenced the answers or we've
influenced the order in whichthe companies are showing up by
showing up in media.
So we've we've then begungetting our customers on
podcasts.
Like you like, it's not a clearanswer.
You know, I wish I could justsay, hey, you do these three
things, we have our ownframework.
But it's things like that thatI'm sharing that we're seeing is
(26:32):
influencing the results.
So a press release back in theday mattered because it was like
a good quality link for like aday or something, but a press
release also is media, and youcan put in.
So I have a client who launcheda brand new YouTube channel, and
there was no mention of thiscompany in ChatGPT after they
launched a YouTube channel.
They put out a couple of videos,you go to Chat GPT.
Well, we put out a press releaseabout the channel and all of
(26:53):
this.
Then you go to ChatGPT and itknows everything about this this
YouTube channel.
So we're like, hey, I thinkwe're trying to figure out how
they're doing it.
And the good thing is, I thinkit's the exciting part, that
they wrote an algorithm.
So just like Google had analgorithm, if you can figure
that out, right?
Like it's not impossible tofigure it out, but I think it's
(27:14):
easier than actually people makeit out to be.
So we're doing good old outreachspray mentions, right?
Quality press mentions, um, andand podcast interviews and
things that we can influencethat are then able to then
change what they know about you.
If LLMs don't know about whatyou do, because you give it more
(27:36):
no information, you don't havestructured data on your website,
you don't have any content,right?
You don't have schema markup,you're not answering questions,
then it doesn't matter.
We're not going to show up.
Those are like your foundationalthings.
And then from there, you justgot to go keep working on
creating content on YouTube andmaking sure the same exact
answers are being done.
It's a lot more contentcreation.
However, it's it's totallychangeable.
(27:58):
And we're seeing and we'retracking every day.
So we're we're seeing how theanswers are being influenced by
the activity that the brand isdoing.
SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
Yeah, I think that was great, great points.
I think that uh share a voice uhin media is is key.
And the easiest way for mostbrands to do that is YouTube.
You saw in the big announcementfrom Google, they pivoted to
YouTube.
I mean, they again they seewhere these things are going.
I think that they're uh under alot of pressure to come up with
new subscription models with uhads that are are kind of moving
(28:31):
away and they're trying to.
I mean, I I don't know if we'regonna see ads in LLMs.
I I mean they say they're not,but I I I you know it remains to
be seen.
Um, you know, I I think pressreleases are phenomenal uh as
well.
Uh I think there's differentplaces to get citations and what
the training sets look like, um,a lot of educational-based
(28:53):
stuff.
One of the interesting thingsthat um I would consider maybe a
pro tip, it was something thatthat we learned recently as we
were building out a new site,was alums don't pick up iframe
embeds.
Okay.
So, how many websites out therehave a lot of really important
content in an iframe embed?
And well, it's not a schemaunless you, you know, if unless
(29:16):
you're labeling it, unless maybeyou have some schema markup
referencing what it is, uhthat's not going to show up.
So schemas, you know, peopledebate on whether schemas
appointed to structured data.
It helps uh build trust.
And that's what Google's aboutis is is building that that that
trust.
So I I think that there's a lotof stuff that that's changing
(29:36):
and it questions yourassumptions.
And like I I love to like knowwhat I know and then go like,
let me go test it.
Let me go see if something'sdifferent, let me go kind of
tweak it, let me go see what seewhat happens.
And so I'm really enjoying uhthe discovery process that you
know everything's different,everything's uh everything's
(29:57):
new.
It's kind of like an unexploredland.
Um I I've I've done a coupleposts.
Uh I have a newsletter onLinkedIn that I need to probably
uh do a little bit moreconsistently.
But you know, I I did the postabout um, it's kind of like you
know, Columbus Day, we just hadThanksgiving.
I know this will be released uhprobably in January, but we're
(30:18):
doing this right afterThanksgiving.
Um it's new land, it's newterritory that that is
unexposed.
Now, certain people just uhinherited it, but if they're not
really doing the things theyneed to do, they're not gonna
be, they're not gonna maintainthat ownership.
And um also you can't juststumble on this anymore.
(30:39):
Like it, it's it's very umintentional, I think a lot of uh
a lot of what's happening.
Uh you've made some reallyinteresting points, which uh,
you know, doing a press releasebefore a campaign that you
launch is is something that'spretty standard, but seeing that
in the data of you have aYouTube channel and then you're
(31:01):
calling attention to it.
Like there's a a paper outthere, uh Attention is
everything that kind of kickedthis whole thing off uh with the
LLMs.
You're calling attention tothat.
And then LLMs are going andchecking it out, kind of swarm
theory, and then they're goingand checking out the podcast,
and then they're indexing thewhole podcast, and it gets the
training data is that's that's athat's a super interesting
(31:21):
insight.
SPEAKER_03 (31:22):
Every single one of our clients um automatically are
getting this level of support.
It's not an add-on.
You don't go and say, Oh, I wantthe traditional SEO, and then
can you give me this otherthing?
We can't.
There's no way it's allintertwined.
Um, so we have the opportunityto test all of our theories
against all of our existingclients, as well as the ones
(31:44):
that are coming in uh by meputting out a lot of resources
and content and you know, justwhat we're finding every single
day.
Um and it's been interesting tosay the least, because no one's
ever, this is a new territory,even for the the experts of the
experts, they're still figuringit out.
Uh so back to your point, Matt,uh experimentation is what we
do.
We've always done that.
(32:04):
We never knew anything until wecan prove something.
Uh and then and eventually itstopped working.
And I think the same exact thingis gonna happen.
Um, I believe that marketers aregoing to ruin Chat GPT because
we now know what the freak weneed to do.
And that means that we can'ttrust it like we used to trust.
And right now it's probablyclean, but eventually, as you
know, everybody can figure outhow to show their brand up
(32:27):
there, and so it's going tobecome more harder, and some
other thing is gonna pop up tomake it harder or to to actually
have the quality data.
The the the more interestingthing, I think, is our customers
do not care um how you what youdo, they want their answers.
So I think we need to solve forthe customer.
We are, and I don't want to bethe guy that's that's got the
(32:48):
secret to showing up in ChatGPT.
That's not the that's not thething.
We you and I have clients thathave hundreds of millions of
companies out there, they have aspecific type of customer
they're trying to serve.
They don't need everybody, theyjust need the kind of people if
you're if you make some sort ofan engine for a uh a plane that
only fits these types of planes,that's the only kind of
customers that are really gonnahelp you.
(33:09):
You don't need everybody elsecalling you.
But the problem is you need toinform these LLMs what you do
and who you do it for and thespecificity of your services.
And and and so for smallbusinesses, you can only serve a
small geographic target.
So somebody in Nebraska isn'tgonna help you if you're in
Texas.
You don't need the traffic fromTexas or from somewhere else.
(33:29):
So I think if we could just honein on there's enough money to be
made for everybody.
That's number one.
There's no like you're not gonnamiss out on it.
But what we are going to missout on if you don't have enough
information about you and whoyou want to have as a customer,
and if the LLMs don't know, itcannot answer the prompt.
So every time we're doing this,we measure the visibility before
we start working with people,and then we look at the
(33:51):
visibility after we startworking with people.
It's often that their own brandisn't mentioned for the thing
that you do.
So if you're a real estateagent, I have just brought on a
real estate client in Southwhere they are, they don't show
up in the town.
They're selling luxury homes inthe town that they serve for I
don't know how long.
They don't show up.
(34:12):
And you know why?
Because every real estate agenthas a cookie cutter website,
Matt.
You know this, everybody's gotthe same thing, some kind of MLS
search.
There's no schema markup,there's no content, there's
nothing about what you do.
They just people that know yougo to your website.
It was never a funnel, it wasnever a top of funnel, middle of
funnel, and then, oh, I want tobuy a house.
(34:32):
There was always, like you said,some iframe or something of MLS.
And so they're like, Salman, Ican't, I can't have this because
if I sell one million dollarhouse, it is enough to pay for
your services for the whole yearor whatever it is, right?
Like, like, like I was like,Yeah, you're right.
You know, it's like, do you seelike how much money is on the
(34:53):
table?
If you don't show up, it's it'stens and thousands of dollars
per month that you could bemissing out because you didn't
put anything about you on theinternet because you know, word
of mouth, referrals, andwhatever is how you relied on
it.
And that person was like reallyfrustrated because this is the
reality, this is the newreality.
SPEAKER_02 (35:13):
You know, I I think it uh marketers should do a
better job of when they'representing to clients on what
the lost opportunity cost is ofnot uh utilizing.
And I think you hit on that.
One of the things that I that Istarted to think of when you
were talking, and we're gettingclose to the end of the pocket,
so I want to give you time.
(35:33):
Yeah, I know.
This has been a greatdiscussion, and uh I would love
to keep going.
Um, I just got a hard stop here,but uh essentially uh I was on a
speaking tour um and there wasuh like a VP of Coca-Cola.
I don't I don't remember hername, but uh she said something.
She said a focus beam of lightattracts more moths in the
(35:56):
darkness.
Okay.
And everybody understands thatthat analogy that when I talk to
a lot of brands, they're tryingto be everything to everybody
and they're trying to serve toobig of an area or a specific
area.
And Google looks at trust.
Google's like, do you reallyhave clients in this area?
Do you really serve this area?
(36:17):
Can you really do all thesethings excellent?
Because I want to give the bestabsolute answer.
And so that's what I'm seeinghappen with LLMs as a multiple,
is you need to get really,really clear who you are and
what you do and who you serve.
And you need to build contentaround that based on the
customer journey, based on thetarget persona that you're going
after.
(36:38):
And and the more you getfocused, you can amplify that
focus, but you want to, like allof us, want to get clients that
fit the box of where we servethe clients the best, the type
of customers or the even thetype of um people to people,
because people do business withpeople that we want to work
with.
Like trying to serve everybody,um you're gonna be that jack of
(36:59):
all trades, the expert of none,like that that analogy.
And I'm not saying that peoplearen't experts in multiple
things, but you got to provethat to the LLMs, you got to
prove that to the searchengines.
And it's a lot easier to startsmall and expand out, just like
uh the GMBs do.
So um I just kind of wanted tohighlight that for everybody is
having that focus beam alight umuh of what you do uh clarifies
(37:24):
it for search engines and LLMsalike.
Um Solomon, I really liked theinsights you shared.
I would love to have you backon.
We can talk further uh as thingscontinue to progress.
Um, how do people find some ofthese resources, follow you, get
in touch with you, um, hire you?
SPEAKER_03 (37:42):
Absolutely.
No, I'm happy to give all myresources away.
I actually create a lot ofresources around this very
thing, AI visibility.
Uh, I put a 45-minute freetraining out on the internet.
It's just a simple website theycan go to 10x10x.info.
Literally, it's free.
You don't have to do anything,you don't have to buy anything.
(38:03):
The reason I do that is I wantto make sure that small
businesses, those companies thatdesperately need the help, maybe
they can't afford a consultantor whatever else, they should
know what to do so they canactually do and get to a place
where they can start paying forservices because there's so many
business that are going to belost.
It's gonna be like internet allover again.
Where do I start?
How do I do it?
You know, people thought talk tome and say, Well, I can go train
(38:25):
it myself.
I said, You can't.
They don't take what you and Isay and and change the the
training.
It doesn't do that.
SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
People were trying to talk to AI in the beginning
to like make it remember themand and it doesn't, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_03 (38:39):
So so that's what I mean, right?
So things there's some justthink simple things we want to
add value to as many people aspossible.
So they do that, they can goconnect with me on social media,
but it's more about uh educatingyourself, learning, finding the
right people to help you basedon the size of your businesses.
But yeah, so if they want toemail me, happy to help.
It's all on my that website,10x.info.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
Awesome.
Well, uh, I'll put your links inthe show notes as well.
Thank you so much uh for comingon.
Solomon really enjoyed it.
Uh, everyone, if you want togrow your business with the
largest, most powerful tool onthe planet.
Well, I used to say theinternet, but maybe it's LLMs.
I don't know.
I think that we're gonna have anuh AI revolution here.
Um, reach out to EWR for morerevenue in your business.
(39:22):
Uh, thank you so much forlistening.
If you liked anything we said,please leave a comment.
I do read all the comments,please leave a review, follow
us.
Um, check us out on YouTube.
It's really, like I said, it'sreally sad.
We need to do some stuff there,but we're we're working hard to
uh make that quality content foryou.
We got shorts and all that sortof thing.
So I'll and we'll give you someof those to share as well.
Uh so thank you so much,everybody.
(39:44):
We appreciate it.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.
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