February 8, 2026 • 50 mins
We unpack how AI finally lets marketers count what matters, why attribution is broken across platforms, and how to use behavioral insight and benchmarking to choose better bets. We share a simple playbook: listen in niche communities, test in organic, scale what pops, and measure outcomes not vanity.
• AI compressing the cost of data integration and analysis
• Platform bias, privacy limits and pixel gaps in attribution
• Traffic down, leads up as signal quality improves
• Behavioral personas outperforming demographic personas
• Niche communities seeding mainstream trends with delay
• Organic as a testbed to inform paid investments
• Benchmarking growth against the category, not just yourself
• Operational discipline for clean data and controlled spend
• Directional signals over false precision to act faster
Guest Contact Information:
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Website: rightmetric.co
Instagram: instagram.com/charliegrinnell
Twitter/X: x.com/CharlieGrinnell
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:02):
I'll clip the beginning here.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
So This is the unknown secrets of internet
marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_03 (00:20):
Howdy, welcome to another episode of the Unknown
Secrets of Internet Marketing.
I'm your host, Matt Bertram.
As you know, I've been trying toget that changed.
Our intro and the name of thepodcast, I've been doing it for
12 years roughly.
Like so it's it's very ingrainedin how we do it.
But um, you know, we are focusedon uh LLM visibility and the
(00:44):
changing world and how uh AI isimpacting search.
And one of the biggest use casesthat I've found for search is
well, data analysis and patternrecognition and really taking
all the different data sets thatwe have, whether it be you know
SimwarWeb or now there's likeSparkTuro and you know uh Google
Analytics and like pulling themall together and and figuring
(01:07):
out uh a lot more about thatcustomer journey, that target
persona and the things that getpeople to buy.
I think data-driven uh digitalmarketing or or SEO is just so
powerful.
And there's been a shift ofpeople getting more comfortable
with analytics.
And I'm on a couple like large,like large teams for companies
where I bring the data set andyou know, the traditional
(01:28):
marketers are like all want tosee the data and understand it.
And um, you know, it it's agreat time to be alive.
And and so I wanted to bring onuh Charlie Grinnell uh from
Wright Metric.
He's taken a bunch of differentdata and brought it all together
and does data research and hasgot some really interesting
insights and trends for ustoday.
So, Charlie, welcome to theshow.
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Hey, thank you very much for having me.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_03 (01:52):
Yeah, so I'm I'm excited to just uh you you get
to see um big swaths of data.
I love uh when I get to talk topeople that have access to like
click metrics and you know thethe the data stream and and they
get to they get to do all kindsof fun stuff with the data.
I think I think the the name ofthe game is Data's Oil, Data's
the New Oil.
And I feel like prior to LOMs,uh the excitement got slowed
(02:17):
down a lot because you weretalking about data hygiene so
much.
And uh it was taking a long timeto like clean up the data.
So like a lot of the excitementfor marketers uh maybe wasn't
there uh when when you weresetting up data lakes and stuff
like that.
And um, you know, I think nowit's just fast and furious, and
and there's so many cool thingshappening from a consulting
(02:37):
standpoint, from a dataanalytics standpoint.
And you know, I'd love to justkind of let you set the table of
like where you see the marketgoing and some of the
interesting insights you'refinding.
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Yeah, so I think what you just said there around
there's this excitement againaround data, I think is
absolutely true.
And I think I'll use an analogy,right?
For the last 10 or 15 years inmarketing, we've been told to
like use our data, right?
Use your data, use your data,right?
And people go, yeah, yeah,totally, that sounds good.
And then they kind of like goaway and be like, okay, but now
(03:08):
what?
Oh wow, this is reallycomplicated or time consuming or
expensive, etc.
And so when I think about and Ithink where we're going is we've
been kind of sold this dream oflike going to the moon, so to
speak, with data.
But then that kind of gap thatwe've run into is like, okay,
but like, do we have a launchplatform?
Do we have spacesuits?
Do we have like engines?
(03:29):
Do we have boosters, like all ofthat sort of stuff?
And I think now what's superexciting with what we're seeing
on the AI side of things is alot of that underlying
infrastructure that wasexpensive, time consuming, and
not really sexy, the cost andresource needed to actually make
a lot of that stuff happen isgetting compressed, which is
awesome.
So, you know, what you and I, Ithink, have been talking about
(03:51):
before we started recording wasthis idea of being able to count
things now that we previouslyhaven't been able to count
because they've been costprohibitive or time prohibitive.
So I think that's really, reallyexciting.
Like, yeah, of course, AI cancreate video for us and do all
these different things, but Ithink what's really interesting
is like there have been allthese underlying things that
(04:11):
we're about to learn aboutsociety as a whole, and then
specifically in marketing thatwe're about to learn about our
customers because we can nowcount and pull meaning from all
of these different signals thatpreviously have been around us
and just kind of hiding in plainsight.
SPEAKER_03 (04:25):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the biggest
thing and my biggest kind oflike, I guess, pet peeve, I
don't know if that's the rightword, but essentially, how many
different platforms did Itypically have to log into,
right?
To to try to get meaning.
And then if you're runningmultiple campaigns, you know, it
you're you're buying like an adroll or something like that to
(04:45):
to easily roll them all togetherbecause and then run it into a
dashboard and like figure outlike, okay, where's my
attribution really?
Which that's a still a hugeissue, right?
Of like what converted white.
And AdWords always got the lastattribution.
So people dump more money intoAdWords, but it's like, man, the
(05:06):
discovery probably happened onFacebook or social.
And and I I feel like that'swhat's kind of happened in the
data recently, is it's just kindof left Google and Facebook and
it's gone everywhere.
And so now like it's startingover to figure out what that
customer journey looks like.
Even the data set of like, okay,someone had to see your ad 11
(05:26):
times before they converted.
I recently saw data on the B2Bside that it's 30.
Okay.
So there's like there's 30 touchpoints that happen before
somebody dies.
It's not that simple of I'm justgonna run some ad words and I'm
gonna get business, right?
And here's the crazy thing Isaw.
This is a little bit uh one offto what I'm talking about, but
(05:48):
I've been seeing in my socialmedia feeds, you know, people
post like these affiliatenumbers, right?
And I'm not in the affiliatespace, but they post these
affiliate numbers of how muchmoney they're making.
I saw a video of a buddy that Iknow was showing how to write
the prompts to create that whereit's all fictitious.
So all this data of like, so sowe're in a world today to kind
(06:12):
of bring it back where you can'ttrust anything, you gotta verify
it, right?
Yeah, if like and so it's like,okay, what are the data sources?
What are you using?
Like, even for me, I would tendto lean towards search console
data over GA4 data.
One is okay, I gotta getrecertified in GA4.
(06:34):
Okay, that was like one, theykeep moving stuff around, they
got some good stuff in there,but okay, but what I was finding
is we were running like ad datato a couple clients that I was
trying to get them to upgradetheir servers.
Okay, I was like, hey, your yourdata is like your servers are
slow, core web vitals, whatever.
And um, I could show them thedata of like how many people
(06:59):
were getting driven to thewebsite and then how many times
the pixel fired, and there was ahuge delta.
And I was like, people arecoming to the website and
they're bouncing before thepixel can even load and fire.
Like understanding how all thesethings work and connect is is
you know, two-thirds of thegame, I almost feel like,
(07:19):
because once you figure outwhere the data is and what you
need to do, so you get you couldget you can take the data, you
could get the analysis, and nowthe execution is the easiest
part.
And a lot of people spend somuch money on the execution, and
they spend almost no money onthe strategy.
So they're like, you know,they're the little mouse trying
(07:40):
to make to try to climb out ofwhat is that analogy?
They're trying to climb out ofthe bucket, they're trying to
turn the milk into cheese,right?
And they're like spending somuch money and effort.
I'm finding that a lot on the AIvisibility side.
People don't know what to do, sothey're doing like a bunch of
everything.
And then I come in and I'm like,okay, there's a lot of noise
here.
Like you're you're just tryingto survive.
(08:01):
Like, let's slow down, figureout what the plan is, and then
move in that direction.
I don't know.
And I I just feel like what youdo is the the the engine on that
train, right?
Like you got to have the thedata figured out.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
Yeah, well, it's it's there's a few things you
said there that I want to touchon.
So the first one being theexample that you just gave where
you showed a client where thepixel wasn't firing and all of
that.
I think what's reallyinteresting, and I'd be curious
your take on this is we've kindof had this pendulum, right?
So as soon as kind ofperformance marketing started to
come into style, so to so tosay, it was like, oh, we can
(08:37):
track everything, therefore, xequals 10.
And I think we as marketers,like the pendulum swung over
there to be like, what's ourROAS?
What's our ROI?
We're only doing things if wecan attribute them, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (08:47):
And then we look at like, okay, the Cambridge
Analytica thing happened, youknow, so there was like some
some weird feeling around that,you know, some of the social
APIs kind of cut back on whatthey were showing, all for good
reason.
Then you have all the whole likeGDPR data privacy compliance
stuff.
Yeah.
Um, and then and then you andCalifornia.
SPEAKER_03 (09:07):
I want to call out California because no one talks
about California, and peoplejust say, in the US, you're able
to operate no problem.
And they they don't mentionCalifornia.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
So so totally.
So there's so so what we've seenis kind of this like pendulum of
like, let's track everything tonow.
It's actually kind of swung backthe other way because it's like,
well, we actually can't seeeverything anymore.
And even the stuff we can see,to your point, it's biased
because Google's gonna say itcame from Google, Meta's gonna
say it came from Meta.
You know, everyone's trying toget that piece of the
(09:38):
attribution pie to be like, Iwas the one that actually did
that.
And so the kind of thenarrator's voice is like,
everybody's lying.
Um, you know, like that's kindof the thing, and and the the
answer is it's it depends.
And so then you get into yourown data.
Oh, well, people coming to oursite, the way a visit or a or a
session is calculated on everysingle website is different.
(09:59):
Plus, there's bot traffic, plusthere's etc.
etc.
Right.
So, like to your point, it'scomplicated.
SPEAKER_03 (10:05):
Um yeah, so so just to add, like bot traffic is
something that a lot of clientsdon't rule out when they're
setting up their analytics,right?
Or their own their own IPaddress, right?
So you got people at thecompany, it it it it really
creates a lot of noise uh in thedata.
(10:26):
And I I would I I would evensay, what was I gonna say?
I was gonna say something umthat was pretty thoughtful, but
I can't remember what it was.
So keep keep keep keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
Yeah, what so so what I would say is from that,
like from that data perspective,um, like that has just been a
really interesting thing tonavigate within organizations,
right?
Like how we as marketersapproach data.
What is our level of trustthere?
So that's kind of like bucketnumber one.
Bucket number two, I think, thatis really interesting, is for
the last up until kind of likeyou know, the advent of all
(11:01):
these AI tools in the last 24months, call it we as marketers
have basically let the toolsdrive what we count.
And I actually think that'swrong.
I actually think what we need todo is we need to figure out what
is the right thing to count andthen have tooling go after that.
And I think what's happened iswith AI now, you can create
(11:24):
tooling in a fairly lightweightway based on the value of the
countability of something.
And that is really, reallyinteresting.
SPEAKER_03 (11:31):
Yeah, I I think you're dead on.
And as a broader concept, that'swhat I've seen lack in most of
the tools, is there's things youcan measure.
So, so AI on the organic side ofthings has completely been
flipped upside down, right?
Like they've flipped over thecart, there's no attribution,
(11:51):
like you know, you have torethink what you're doing.
And people are like, oh, it'sjust good SEO, and and that is a
portion of it.
Um and it's gonna get you, let'ssay 70% or whatever the way
there.
But there's still differencesand there's still things that
need to happen.
But when you think about, okay,what do I need to do?
Um, it's not about trafficanymore.
(12:14):
Okay.
That's that's the thing.
That's the biggest thing.
It's like there's an inversecorrelation now.
It's like traffic's going down,leads are going up, right?
And so people are using thistraffic measurement.
And like, I mean, there was somekind of update recently, and
traffic just dropped again,right?
And then like everybody freaksout, and it's like, okay, well,
(12:36):
what is happening?
How are things evolving?
Where are things moving to?
And we're not tracking the rightthings, like we're tracking what
we know how to track, but evenkeyword ranking, okay, because
now you're talking aboutcustomization, like it's very
hard to figure out attribution,but I do think it's easier to
(12:59):
understand who your targetaudience is and how they search
and go, what should we be doingto be in the way of this?
And I think what I was gonna sayearlier was how people are
searching, what I'm finding iswhen you were saying, Oh, it
could be Facebook, it could beGoogle, it could be both, and it
could be simultaneously becausemaybe there's like something
(13:21):
streaming, okay, and thenthey're on their phone.
And like, I mean, so a lot ofthese, a lot of these like um
clear customer journey path isnot what it looks like at all.
I mean, they came out with astudy a couple years, it was
like 2003 or something likethat, where it was it looked
like um like an atom orsomething like that.
It was like you would you wouldgo out, you would come back, you
(13:41):
would, you know, it it was verymessy.
Um and and I and I think asmarketers, I guess, or
storytelling, you you want toexplain it for the client really
easily.
And it's just like, here's thefunnels and here's the steps,
and we just gate them and movethem along, and you know, this
is what it is, but it but allthis getting flipped upside down
(14:04):
is forcing us to rethink andalso how people are searching is
is evolving as well, right?
Because um, I'm finding what oneof the things you we were
talking about, you know, some ofthe competitors of the uh uh the
tool that you have.
One uh I I do use one of thosetools, and essentially what I
(14:26):
was seeing in the data is wherewere people, where was the
referral traffic going from someof these sites?
The referral traffic was goingto chat GBT, the referral
traffic was going to growbecause they they find you
somehow, like maybe it's aFacebook, whatever.
Um, they find you or Reddit orwhatever, they go to a website,
they check it out.
What do they do now?
(14:46):
Now they verify.
So they're gonna Google you,they're gonna, you know, chat
GBT you, they're gonna figureout what is the AI saying.
And we've landed some clientsrecently that are like, we don't
like what the AI says about us.
Can you help us fix that?
And I was like, Yeah, we candefinitely do that.
But like reputation managementin that category was never
(15:08):
request because there was neverAIs that were doing it.
And then like people arestarting to tell me too, hey, I
usually went to Google, but nowI'm starting to go to Chat GPT
and I'm like, oh, you're comingacross the river, right?
And I'm like, that number keepsgoing up.
So I it's I think it's just afun world to be in.
I mean, what are some of thethings that you're seeing in in
the data that were kind of umlike a standout to you or kind
(15:32):
of shocking to you that youwouldn't expect?
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
Yeah, so I mean, that diversification that you're
talking about, yes, that'sabsolutely in the data across
every industry, whether it'sfinancial services, whether it's
B2B, whether it's retail, likeyou you name it.
I think what one of the bigthings that that we're starting
to see is um these nichecommunities rise up and punch
disproportionately above theirweight.
(15:56):
So I'll give an example.
Um, let's say in the you know,mountain biking space, there
might be a big Reddit threadabout mountain biking.
Cool.
Now that means our our advice toa customer that's a mountain
biking brand isn't, hey, go geton Reddit.
It's watch what's happeninghere, watch what's being talked
about here, and then can you usethis stuff in your content, in
(16:18):
your activations, and how youyou put yourself out into the
world?
But I think what's reallyinteresting is like these
smaller communities are having adisproportionate impact on the
behaviors of the largercommunity with a delay.
So, you know, the way that whenReddit describes itself as like
the front page of the internet,the way we also describe it to
customers is like, you know,that thing you're seeing now on
(16:40):
Instagram that happened threemonths ago on Reddit.
And I think what we're seeing is4chan likes, yeah, 4chan, like
whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (16:47):
Like so just for same, same, say, same, same
concept.
Like uh for everyone that'slistening, uh, it's like how
culture gets developed fromEurope to New York to California
to maybe the rest of the world.
And then also what you'resaying, like what you saw on
Instagram, I've seen this on theinternational side more than
anything else.
Like, I love when clients arelike multinational and I'm like,
(17:11):
oh, we got to run ads in SouthAmerica.
I'm like, all right, like Ialready know exactly what's
gonna work because it's whatworked in the last two years
here that's no longer workingnow, is working there.
It's just kind of like awaterfall effect of where it
flows from and too.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
Totally.
So I think that thatdiversification is really
actually driven by people'sbehavior, right?
And so I think that's the thingis like what we're seeing is
that diversification ofbehavior.
Yes, people are still going tothe big platforms, absolutely.
But when we look at where elseare they spending time, it's
much more broad and diverse.
And a lot of organizationsaren't necessarily set up to
(17:46):
monitor or even understand that,right?
Like it's one thing, and andagain, when I say monitor and
understand that, notice that Ididn't say show up there and be
active.
Like I think that's the otherthing, is like, you know, when
when someone hears me sayReddit, you know, I'm not saying
go start spin up a Reddit likepresence as a brand.
I'm just saying understand thatthe people's attention that
you're trying to earn, that iswhere they're spending time.
(18:09):
So you as a brand, the theactivity on Reddit might be an
intelligence gathering thingthat you build into your
workflow, not necessarily we'regonna show up there.
And so I think that's like wherethe nuance is.
SPEAKER_03 (18:21):
That's a big shift because I have had clients go,
oh, the LLMs, we need to be oncore on Reddit.
And they go jump in out there,they don't understand the
culture, like right, they'vegetting they get banned, you
know, or whatever.
And it's clear self-promotion.
And totally that's not whatthese communities want, but you
should go and um what is itcalled?
(18:43):
Lurk, like go lurk around andand understand what's going on.
And from an intelligencegathering, you now know what's
going to hit your broader marketsooner.
It's kind of the you know, thethe the wellspring of of
whatever you're gonna do.
I I think that that's a great,great takeaway and a great kind
of mind shift for people.
Um what else?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
I think I think the well, so so I think with that,
like like separating, separatingwhen when when we think about
marketing, right?
Like there's like the activationoutput, but then there's also
like operationally, what are wesetting up for for?
And so I think like that's why Ialways call that thing out,
because it's like, oh, there'sthis big diversification of
channels.
And most people go, oh yeah, weneed to, we need to go be on
(19:23):
that channel.
And it's like, no, no, no.
You just need to be aware ofthat channel and you need to set
up the infrastructure tounderstand what's happening
there so that you can be betterprepared to plan whatever's
next.
So I think, yeah, that's how Iwould summarize that.
Um, the next one, this is Idon't know if this is, I'm
curious your take on this.
I think most brands have organicsocial completely backwards.
(19:44):
And what I mean by that is therise of performance marketing
and you know, paid, Facebook,Google, et cetera, has changed
the hierarchy internally, wherethat's where a lot of the
resource and focus and attentionand like political capital
behind the scenes.
Within marketing organizationshave gone, right?
So when I sat on the social teamat Red Bull, at Aritzia, and
(20:06):
when I worked in marketing RTRX,like all of a sudden we're
pouring tons and tons of moneyinto ads.
Internally, I might say, hey,this is an idea, but the person
running you know 10 millionbucks in ads, their opinion's
gonna trump me because, like,oh, well, that's where the
majority of our investment isgoing.
And so we've seen this play outwith, hey, we've made these
campaigns, we've run these ads,and like off we go.
(20:28):
And then usually what happens islike that creative just gets
shoveled over to the social teamand is like, hey, yeah, post
this.
That is completely backwards.
SPEAKER_03 (20:36):
For sure.
I mean, uh, Gary, yeah, goahead.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (20:39):
That's probably the same thing that Gary talks
about.
Organic social needs to be yourpetri dish, where what you
actually need to do is publishas much content as possible on
organic social, establish what abaseline performance is, and
anything that pops from that,that's what you double down on
and throw ad dollars on and getafter.
SPEAKER_03 (20:56):
100%.
I I think what you're saying hasbeen like the conversation for
SEOs for so long, right?
Like it fits into social aswell.
Yeah, is is just like you gotthe attribution on the ads, so
you know, you you you see thatclear line, so you throw more
money at ads, and so it's beendisproportional how much money
(21:17):
people spend on ads.
And you know, and and we we'rewe're I'm seeing it in all kinds
of models on the pay per clickjust get bit up to where the
model breaks, and it's like thisdoesn't even work anymore from a
customer acquisition standpoint.
Now we have to think about newchannels and new strategies and
workflows and you know, allthese sort of things.
(21:38):
And and so, yeah, I mean, that'sthat that's what I keep hearing
Gary say.
And I I we were doing that for along time before he even started
saying that because like youcould put it out there on
Twitter, you could put it outthere on Instagram, and like
here's the thing like I posted apost on LinkedIn recently, and I
(21:59):
knew based on how it responded,and I posted on Facebook as
well.
I knew based on how it likewouldn't give me access to the
analytics, and they're like,we're still trying to figure it
out.
I was like, Oh yeah, this one'sgoing viral, right?
Like and and so so it's youknow, it's like boom, and it's
like 30,000 views like in thefirst like three days.
(22:20):
And so I think that these kindof wins as well, showing those
to management, saying, Hey, howwould much would it cost to get
this kind of uh impression uhyou know reach?
And also these are the righttype of customers and we're
getting the right kind ofengagement.
And it's like, let's spend ourtime on what is the narrative
(22:42):
that we want to communicate andget involved in that.
And um you're you're actuallynot gonna have to spend as much
on ads on the back end toconvert.
I mean, there's so much data outthere that said if people know
your brand, they like yourbrand, they're gonna buy from
you and you just got to use theads to remind them.
But if you're trying to use theads to like full life cycle, get
(23:03):
them from awareness topurchasing, it's very expensive.
And not to say that brands can'tdo it, but you know, um, I I
just I think that all thisturnover uh with with AI is
forcing people to rethink andstart over from the ground up.
And and I just think it's such agood thing.
Now I'm finding that a lot ofbrands aren't making that change
(23:27):
fast enough and are just gettingsmashed or are getting smashed.
Like, and and you know, noweverybody's like, oh, we're
digitally transformed.
We understand that we need to beposted on social.
And then it's like, well, nowyou got to figure out AI.
So good luck.
You know, and yeah, and so I I Idon't know.
I I I'm a constant learner and Ilove talking to people and
(23:47):
hearing what they're doing.
And um, I mean, it's you know,you have to, if you're running a
business, understand the impactand how technology and social
media and and all this stufffits into it, or you or you're
really running blind.
Um, I mean, the world haschanged so much.
I I would tell you, I I I won'tspeak the name, but I was I sat
(24:09):
down with the head of AI and uha director at like a large like
Fortune 500 yesterday, and wewere talking about prospecting.
Okay, we were talking aboutsales, we were talking about
prospecting.
They're not allowed to use AI,okay?
They're they're not allowed touse lead gen, they're not
allowed to, they're not able tohave any homegrown assets,
(24:29):
they're not able to buildlanding pages.
And I said, like, what are y'alldoing?
And they're like, Well, we'recalling and I go, Can you use
LinkedIn navigator?
Nope.
I was like, So what are youdoing?
Well, the old school way, we'recalling people we know, we're
setting up meetings, we're goingto meet them, and you know,
we're you know, closing deals,and and they only eat what they
kill.
And I'm like, Y'all are scaringme.
(24:53):
Like, I was like, I was like, Icouldn't, I couldn't handle that
environment anymore to know thatthere's people competing with
you that have AI and everythingelse leveraged up to to
challenge you, and these bigbrands that are sitting on their
logos and and and the brand thatthey've developed for whatever
(25:14):
years, like um what there Iforget the name of the tool.
Uh, it was like a vibe codingtool, Wix just bought them.
Uh, I think they sold for 40million.
It was a one person uh Israel,Israeli guy that created this
whole thing in Wix bought 40million dollars, just one
person.
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
What's lovable?
Lovable's, I think they're under50 people and they're a hundred
million ARR, and they've done itin the fastest time in the
history of business.
Under 50 people, 100 millionARR.
So you want to talk about avaluation on top of that?
SPEAKER_03 (25:45):
Like, yeah, well, well, think about the businesses
that are trying to go head tohead with these guys.
SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
Like, like there's I mean, it sounds like the company
that you were talking toyesterday, uh, based on that
behavior.
SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
They base base 22, the uh Wix bottom, base I think
base 22.
Yeah, they go righthead-to-headed with lovable.
SPEAKER_01 (26:03):
Yeah, but I think about the Fortune 500 that you
just mentioned that you well,you don't have to mention that,
but I'm like, that to me soundslike sounds like Blockbuster
right before it went away.
Like, that's crazy because thereis that story about Blockbuster
where it was like people lovecoming into our stores, they
love the serendipity of runninginto their neighbor in the aisle
(26:24):
while they're browsing for amovie.
And then Netflix was like, youknow what people actually like?
Being naked in their bedwatching their show, binging it.
Like, that's actually whatpeople want, right?
So it's so interesting to seelike that behavior is still
being incentivized at these hugeorganizations, to your point.
And then we're having the riseof these little giants.
And I think that's actuallygonna be the future.
We are gonna see this littlegiant thing where we are gonna
(26:44):
have, you know, a 10-personbillion dollar company.
I think we're gonna get to thepoint where it's a one-person
billion dollar company or like athree-person billion dollar
company with all of thistechnology.
SPEAKER_03 (26:55):
Oh, I I think that that's coming, and a lot of
people have kind of predictedthat.
I mean, I think that like umright metric gives you those
superpowers, right?
Like it gives you the that dataset to figure out like I'm not
just gonna what what it whateverthe ad um the the saying is like
I you know, I I spend 100% of mybudget and I you know I know
(27:15):
where 50% went, or 50%, yeah,yeah.
Yeah, or something like that.
Which 50% worked or whatever itis.
But I mean, like if you knowlaser focused, you know, where
your customers are at, what theylike, how to communicate with
them, and how to positionyourself as a brand, and then
get in front of them, like theseare superpowers, these are legit
(27:36):
superpowers.
Like people, I even like I'mtalking about AI.
I'm like, you have like a PhD inevery single like whatever
sitting next to you as yourco-pilot, right?
As Microsoft did a good job oflike at everything you do, like
that changes the game, like itchanges the clarity, right?
(27:58):
And so now so now it's like,okay, well, uh, I'm working in
like N8N right now, and I'mlike, okay, what tools, what
access to data, what APIs can Iplug in this thing to get it
even more data to justabsolutely crush it, right?
And I mean, we're we're we'reliving in an interesting time.
So tell tell me a little bitmore about your tools so so the
(28:21):
audience can understand kind ofwhat the problem was that you
saw with what was out there, andthen what was what was the spot
that you were trying to fix?
SPEAKER_01 (28:30):
Yeah, so um before I co-founded this company eight
years ago, I worked on the brandside.
So I worked in-house at Aritzia,which is a women's fashion
company.
Before that, which is hilariousfor those of you watching,
because I'm a bald bearded guy.
Um before that, I worked inmarketing at Red Bull um on the
global social team.
And then before that, I wasactually in video production at
Arterix on the brand team.
(28:50):
And so um I worked in-house ofthese big brands, and I was uh
the the turning point for WrightMetric was when I was working at
Aritzia actually.
So um we had these monthlymeetings with the CEO and where
we were, you know, come in andtalk about like what happened
last month, what was going well.
And so we had just had akick-ass month on the social
(29:11):
side.
And so I come into this meetingand you know, thinking I'm hot
shit, and uh, you know, all ofour numbers are up into the
right, and I'm like, this istoday's gonna be a great day.
And I get in there, we startexplaining, you know, kind of
our results and like what we'vedone and whatever.
And uh CEO Brian Hill says tome, Okay, how much did the
category grow though?
(29:31):
You're saying you grew this like20%.
How much did the category grow?
And I was like, Well, I don'tknow, I don't I don't have that
data.
He's like, Well, if the categorygrew five percent, I should give
you a raise, but if the categorygrew 80%, I should fire you
right now.
And I was like, that's not how Ithought this was gonna go.
But you know what?
He was right, and so here I was,and my dashboards were telling
(29:54):
me a story because this is whatwe set up to count, but there
was no external reference pointof if we were winning or not.
Because at the end of the day,we are trying to build our own
brand, but we are also competingagainst Zara, Club Monaco, J.
Crew, Lululemon, etc.
And so, like, we needed to havethat point of view to get an
understanding is are we actuallydoing good or not?
(30:14):
And are we can we actually notjust mark our own homework?
So benchmarking.
SPEAKER_03 (30:20):
Yeah, no, I I I think that most people are not
benchmarking, like they're notkeeping track of the market and
they're not looking at seasonalstuff, right?
Like, um, I have one clientthat, you know, I'm providing
the LOM visibility for them,okay.
So I'm not running the paid ads,but they're doing weekly
(30:42):
stand-ups and they're doingsprints, and it's awesome.
Okay, they're doing great,they're they're very productive,
they're creating a lot of stuff.
The reporting on the paid adside is week over week.
And I'm like, I was like, thisdata is not helpful at all.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
Like, I'm just like, it went up by this much this
week, it went by this week, andI'm like, this doesn't matter.
Like, this doesn't matter atall.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
Like, that's nice that you've just you're like
patting yourself on the back.
Look at how great we are, right?
SPEAKER_03 (31:08):
Like, yeah, I'm like, I don't know what this
means in reference to everythingelse, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
So totally, but I think that goes back to the the
point that I made earlier whereit's like we just count things
because we've always countedthem that way because of how
easy they were to count, right?
So it's so it actually goes tolike, is this thing actually
relevant for us to count?
And if not, let's jettison itand let's figure out what is the
right, no pun intended, rightmetric to count.
(31:33):
And then cool, we can use AI tobuild tooling to start to count
that thing.
That's great.
But I think about this, youknow, this benchmarking
conversation.
I actually wonder, I'd becurious your take.
I feel like a lot of marketersdon't do it.
One, because they're they'restretched thin.
We get it, like marketers arestretched thin.
Two, I actually think there's ahuge ego part there where they
don't want to benchmark.
(31:53):
I've dealt with some people whothe last thing they wanted to do
was benchmark, and ultimatelytheir business suffers because
of it.
And I think that's a whole othertopic of conversation is like,
oh, I don't know, I'm over herekind of doing this, and maybe if
we benchmark, that wouldactually go against the
narrative that I've beenpeddling for five years in this
organization.
Right?
And so I think about this likeidea meritocracy, like the Ray
(32:14):
Dalio type thing.
How are we actually thinkingabout that in marketing?
Because now it's just toocompetitive.
We have to get to that pointbecause it is too competitive,
it is too hard.
Budgets are going under themicroscope.
And so I don't know, that'smaybe a spiky point of view that
some people might not like.
SPEAKER_03 (32:28):
Um, but you know, well, I'll have to have you back
on, Charlie.
We can we can go down thatrabbit hole because I feel like
if we open that up, like that'sgonna be a soapbox and we're
gonna go like way off.
SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
Different talk show, different talk show.
SPEAKER_03 (32:43):
Exactly.
Um, I can I can tell you just uha quick response to that is I
think that resources arestretched really thin.
Okay.
Um, I think that peopleunderquote stuff all the time.
Um the expectation of uh or orthe alignment of of what it
(33:05):
takes to get to XYZ, um, and andwhat I I'm even seeing
compression happening fromclients thinking, okay, you're
leveraging AI, so I want it, Iwant it just as good or better
for cheaper and faster.
Okay.
And it's like, okay, well, if webenchmarked um where where the
(33:26):
the the resources were prior tothis, um like it was just
getting it back into balance.
Uh, and now you're talking aboutmore compression.
And I'm I'm even seeing the thewhole model for agencies um kind
of shift.
And so again, we're we'reopening up uh kind of a whole
ball of wax or I don't know, acan of worms, a can of worms,
(33:47):
not a ball of wax, a can ofworms.
Uh we got all uh but uh I Ithink that we could we could
save that for later to talkabout um how we're dealing with
that.
A lot of coaching that I do,it's it's really interesting.
So I'm not like officiallycoaching.
Um I keep saying I will, and Iand I do have a certification
coming out that I I am workingon, but all the people that have
(34:09):
like like forced in and said,hey, we want to hire you and and
and and they want me to coachthem, I'm excited because I'm
like, oh, I'm gonna help youlike do better in your SEO or
whatever.
It always goes back to likeoperationally, how are you
running the business?
Here are all the here are thethings that I'm dealing with.
And so like again, the more youcan see on how other people are
(34:33):
operating to bring it back tobenchmarking to know, well, this
is what's working, and theseguys are making money, and how
you're doing it might not be theright way, that helps you, gives
you insight into what's goingon.
And and also I think that youknow, don't follow the lemmings
off the cliff, right?
So like if someone's running anad and you look at it and you're
like, okay, they've been runningthis ad for a long time, and
(34:55):
this ad must be working, sowe're gonna like copy it, like
use that as a starting point.
But like sometimes, like, Imean, I've seen ad campaigns
where like they're advertisingall across the country and it's
just running wild.
Like some people don't even knowthat they they don't even have
have access to ad spin that's onsome credit card that's like
running wild.
Like what we started, what westarted doing is setting up
(35:18):
virtual cards for every client,okay, and then like putting caps
on it.
So so if we're running ads forthem, like I know where the ad
spin is, we're shutting it down.
That's an operational thing, butman, people are just moving so
fast to get to the next thing,they they don't have time to to
to really look at it and toreally do the research.
And so tools that help you dothat are tools really, I think
(35:40):
the the biggest need in thespace, in my opinion, is taking
all these different inputs andbringing them together, like
bringing that data togetherwhere you can actually analyze
and do something with it, likeyou know, and there's inherent
concerns with MPC servers, likeif you don't know what black box
you're getting attached to, whatpeople are doing with your data.
(36:01):
And you know, I would just tellyou like Chat GBT, like I mean,
I like if you will listen topodcasts, like they're doing
something with your data, okay?
And then Facebook, what did theyannounce on the 16th?
So this is probably coming outafter the 16th.
Did you know that Facebook, andI think LinkedIn already did
this, they are now saying, uh,we're gonna do AI, everything
(36:22):
with your data, all the stuffthat that's on any of our
platforms, we're loading it tothe AI, we're gonna build like a
model uh about you and aroundyou unless you uncheck that box.
Like, yes, that's bad, and likethere's a certain degree of like
it's inevitable if you're usingthese platforms, you you are the
(36:42):
product, but I don't thinkthey've ever been able to
leverage the data.
Like they were collecting allthe data knewing this day would
come.
That's what I think, right?
They've been they've beencollecting all this data, but
now the insights that you canget um are just incredible, but
you got to have all that datatogether and you have to have it
cleaned up in a way that likethe LLMs can can understand and
(37:05):
analyze it.
And so tools like yours help umbring all that data into one
house.
Uh, and then you can you put agentic wrapper inside your tool.
And you know, there's just gonnabe a lot of things that are
coming that I don't think peopleare prepared for, but are gonna
be really, really powerful andare gonna create that
disproportionate leverage to thepeople that invest in this.
(37:28):
And I think that digitalmarketers, again, I'm on a
soapbox a little bit, are wellpositioned because things
continue to change for them.
So they're normal with this kindof like modus apparendi.
And so I think it's a huge uhadvantage for anybody that's
listening, that's a marketingagency to go, okay, it's
changing again.
(37:48):
Like, don't get burnt out bythat.
Get excited about that becauseif you start competing in
adjacent businesses to this, uhyou're gonna be unmatched
because uh not everybody wantsto keep reinventing the wheel.
And once they've figured out howto do something, what I've seen
in a lot of these uh legacybusinesses or you know, Fortune
500 companies, like not all ofthem, but a lot of them have
(38:11):
like a culture that's stuck inits ways, and they're they just
think that they can operate thesame way that they've always
been operating, and they canjust outspend and they can
outbrand, which like TV ads arelike non existent, like even
terrestrial radio.
I had an old client that wasspending a million dollars a
month on terrestrial radio andlike what was it twenty thousand
(38:34):
dollars or something or thirtythousand dollars on paid ads,
and then even less on that onSEO.
And I was like, I understandthat this is what you've always
done, but I'm telling you, thisis not the right way to go.
And you know, they wouldn'tlisten, and then I got the
filings that they're they youknow they're getting dissolved,
so you know um or yeah, yeah,shocker, exactly.
(38:58):
Um, but anyway, so I would lovewe're we're kind of getting
close to time, but I would lovefor you to like rapid fire,
maybe share some interestinginsights or things that you
found in the data that peoplemight not know.
We could cliche say it's likethe unknown secrets of internet
marketing, or what are someinternet marketing secrets that
you can share of things thatpeople might not know, but you
(39:19):
know because you see the data.
Um, I would love to hear kind ofrapid fire some of those things,
and then totally if you couldshare um how people can find out
uh more about what you'retalking about and uh check out
the product because I know it'sdot co, not dot com, which yeah,
which is is and dot co is whatwhat country is it you know?
What what country is itactually?
SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
I actually don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (39:41):
Oh, it's actually a country, it's actually a country
link.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
I'm like, what yeah, what is I'm like, is it isn't it
Colorado?
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
Oh yeah, there you go.
Exactly.
We're so like US centric here,like we have no like concept of
totally.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
I'm like, I don't know what dot co is.
I think so so one thing I wouldsay just more.
More broadly around people andbehaviors.
We work with a lot of big, bigbrands, and a lot of people on
the brand side tend to thinkabout personas, and when they
think about personas, they thinkabout them demographically.
And we think that's a massivemistake.
You need to think about thembehaviorally.
(40:17):
And I'll give an example.
This is a quick story about mymom and I.
So my mom, love you, mom, she's67, just said her name out loud
or her age out loud.
She'd be pissed if she wassitting here.
Okay, so I'm over at my mom'shouse, and we're talking in her
kitchen.
And on her kitchen counter, shehas an iPad.
Okay.
So we're talking, and she goes,she's forgetting something, and
(40:38):
she's like, ah, that's gonna bugme if I don't look this up.
I'm gonna Google that.
So she walks over to the iPad,and me being the like digital
behavior nerd, I'm kind ofkicking back like this, being
like, okay, she walks over, sheopens the YouTube app, and and
I'm going like, I'm like,there's no way my 67-year-old
mother, who's an accountant,knows that Google owns YouTube.
(41:01):
There's no way she knows that.
And she goes, just let me Googlethat.
So she types in her query, hitssearch, and right before she's
about to touch a video, I go,Mom, stop, stop.
What are you doing?
And she goes, What?
I'm Googling.
And I'm like, you're on YouTube.
And she goes, Oh, Charlie, Idon't want to read, I want to
watch.
SPEAKER_05 (41:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
And that behavior, what I just described, would
typically be associated withADHD 20-year-olds.
My mom is 67.
She's scrolling like a21-year-old.
And that actually, that thatstory is so important because
what we're actually seeing inall the data is these behaviors
(41:41):
don't just attach todemographics, they attach to
much broader groups of people.
SPEAKER_03 (41:47):
So Charlie, I got uh interesting uh story for you
like that.
I'll be brief.
My uh business partner's wife uhwanted to become an influencer
online and wanted some attentiononline, I guess.
And uh, you know, to grow herbusiness, of course, she has a
spa and she, you know, she hadto grow, she wanted to grow her
business.
So we started using like dataanalytics and we started doing
(42:09):
research.
And what I came up with was likethis was six years ago, okay,
like five, six years ago.
And I said, We need to get onTikTok.
And that was when everybody waslike, TikToks for you know, uh,
all these you know, tweens andall this kind of stuff.
And I said, I said, the searchand and so basically I also had
(42:30):
to identify like what do we wantto talk about?
Metapause.
So metapause on TikTok years agoover a million followers now.
Like 300,000 on Facebook.
Like we basically, like, wesaid, okay, like here's demand
that's not being serviced here.
Um, there's like low quality,there's not a lot of uh a lot of
(42:53):
videos to serve.
Let's start creating videos forthis.
We followed the data, and thenfrom there we got all this
visibility, and then we startedto fan out uh on what we were
doing.
And oh, by the way, dot co isColumbia.
So Columbia, okay, there we go.
And people use it as I guesscorporation or company, but I I
(43:14):
looked it up.
Co is originally was originallyrepresenting for Columbia, but
has been relaunched as a globaldomain for companies, startups,
individuals, blah, blah, blah,blah, like how you're using it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:24):
Um, there we go.
SPEAKER_03 (43:25):
Right?
Right, but random, random facts.
Um, very random.
SPEAKER_01 (43:28):
That story, though, is crazy.
Like what you just said aboutlike the the finding finding the
attention and then uh supplyingthat demand with something
that's valuable.
Like, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (43:40):
You know, but I wouldn't like no one would have
guessed that.
No one would have guessed likethis is how we're gonna build,
like, uh unless you have thedata, like the data helped
inform the decision.
Um, I was actually uh in aclient's office yesterday, and
they have a couple different uhservice areas they wanted to go
after.
And basically we were goingthrough search data, uh uh cost
(44:00):
per click, how difficulty it isto rank.
Um, we were thinking about someuh demographics.
I was asking some questionsbecause I didn't know enough of
what it was.
Um, we were using another toolas well, and and basically I was
like, okay, boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
This this is a decent amount ofvolume.
Uh, the cost per click issimilar to what you want to go
(44:23):
after, but it better aligns withyour brand.
So, you know, this is probablywhat we should go after.
And it's actually what theyoriginally wanted to go after,
but we went through that wholelife cycle process to determine
this is the right uh fit, thisis the right brand, and this is
what we need to do.
So it gave it a lot moreconfidence to like, okay, let's
(44:43):
kick it into full gear.
But, you know, there was a lotof like I think that a lot of
people get paralyzed todaybecause there's too many options
or they want optionality.
I feel like everybody wantsoptionality, and so they don't
lean into what they need.
And the data plus the analysisgets you to that point to to
(45:04):
know that, okay, I'm on theright track.
I can I can focus on that, I canlean into it without too much
debate.
I don't know.
Totally.
SPEAKER_01 (45:11):
Well, and I think to the point that I made earlier, I
think we actually need to loosenour grip a little bit.
And what I mean by that is thiswhole attribution performance
marketing x equals 10, what's myrow as?
We need to loosen that grip andjust directionally.
So to your point about likeTikTok or Metapause or whatever
it is, finding the thing, theright thing to talk about
(45:34):
doesn't have to be, oh, I need17 different data points to back
this up.
It's like, hey, this onequantifies attention.
It might be video views, itmight be engagements, it might
be whatever the thing is.
All of those three things, if wezoom out a little bit, those
three things are saying that,like, hey, there's some
attention here.
Cool, let's go after that.
SPEAKER_05 (45:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:52):
Right?
Like, I think that's also thething is like we as that to your
point about like analysisparalysis, is like we we get out
and we're like, oh, it has to beexact.
And I actually don't think ithas to be exact, it just has to
be directionally correct becauseeven if it is exact, that that's
what you should do, there'sstill going to be different
nuances and variables in thecreative, in the targeting, in
the spend, in all of thosedifferent things that it's never
(46:15):
going to be perfect.
And so I actually think we needto loosen our grip a little bit
and still use this stuff assignal for what it is and use it
to guide us, but also not be solike, oh, and now I'm not saying
don't be rigorous with it.
There's a there's a balance,right?
And so I think it's that finebalance of of loosening up the
grip, listening to the rightsignals, and then being a
(46:37):
marketer and being creative tothen try and problem solve to
create something that drives theoutcome that we want.
SPEAKER_03 (46:44):
Charlie, great point.
I think it's a great point toend on.
I think uh I I've really enjoyedour discussion.
And I I think you're a greateducator.
I I I I would love to appreciateyou saying that.
Yeah, I would love to hear kindof maybe any speaking talks you
have coming up, uh, where you'reon social, uh, how do people
find out more, follow you?
Because I think you have somereally great insights to share.
SPEAKER_01 (47:07):
Well, I appreciate you having me on.
Yeah, the best place to followme is on LinkedIn.
I'm very active there.
I publish a, I think I publishright now a new video every
single day.
Um, so yeah, if you want tocontinue to hear my awful voice,
you can go there.
Um and I don't know if this is agood thing or a bad thing, but I
put my email on LinkedIn.
So if people have questions,they can shoot me an email
there.
That's a that's a very I don'tknow if I it was a good idea at
(47:29):
the time.
SPEAKER_03 (47:30):
I I wish I I'm I'm setting up a workflow to help me
sort emails because I would loveto have the time to respond to
to everyone.
Um I I just need to help doingit because I I think this time
right now is is so difficult andI just get flooded with with all
kinds of stuff.
And sometimes I miss it with allthe kind of um you know noise
(47:51):
that's out there.
And so so I I I I hats off toyou for being able to do that.
Um, you know, uh if they want tocheck out your your platform, uh
write metric.co.
Um tell us a little bit aboutthe platform, give me the
elevator pitch real quick beforewe go.
SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
Yeah, so basically what we've done is uh focus on
three types of research audienceresearch, competitive
benchmarking, and contentinsight.
Um, and so what we've done iswe've basically bought access to
over 30 different data tools.
We pull all that stuff into oneplace, and then we have a team
of analysts and strategists thatactually work with you to scope
(48:28):
out what your research questionsare and turn things around quite
quickly, because we've alsobuilt our own proprietary
tooling behind the scenes to beable to enrich some of that data
that we already have access to.
Um, and it's funny, some of thethings that you said, like
having uh what is it, a problemhalf well stated is a problem
half solved.
We spend a lot of our timeworking with customers actually
getting clear on what are theunderlying business questions,
(48:50):
because that's gonna actuallydictate the types of research
that you need.
And oftentimes when people comeat us, they have, oh, I need to
look at this, and we're like,Yeah, we can totally answer that
for you.
But what is this actuallyladdering up to?
And then they go, Oh my gosh, Iactually need this and this and
this and this and this.
And that's not because we wantto sell them more, it's just
more so like answer thequestion, like actually just get
the question answered so thatyou can go on with your day and
(49:10):
move forward as a business.
So um, yeah, we've been doing itfor gosh, eight years now.
Um, we primarily work uh in theconsumer space.
We are doing more B2B nowbecause there are some better
data sets coming online for thatsort of thing.
Um, but our main focus is likehow can we harness all of these
external data sources?
Um, you know, most brands havetheir internal house in order,
(49:32):
they can know what's going on intheir ecosystem, but we're able
to give them that holisticpicture into what's happening
outside of their ecosystem in anaggregated way.
SPEAKER_03 (49:41):
Awesome.
Well, Charlie, thanks so muchfor coming on.
Uh, it was a pleasure havingyou.
Uh, everyone, if you want togrow your business with the
largest, most powerful planettool on the planet, the
internet, but now I feel likeLOMs maybe like are uh
outshining it to a certaindegree, right?
Like I think there's an AIrevolution coming.
(50:02):
Um reach out to EWR for morerevenue in your business.
Uh, check out uh uh Write Metricuh for more insights into your
business.
Uh until the next time, my nameis Matt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.
I'll clip the beginning here.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
So This is the unknown secrets of internet
marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_03 (00:20):
Howdy, welcome to another episode of the Unknown
Secrets of Internet Marketing.
I'm your host, Matt Bertram.
As you know, I've been trying toget that changed.
Our intro and the name of thepodcast, I've been doing it for
12 years roughly.
Like so it's it's very ingrainedin how we do it.
But um, you know, we are focusedon uh LLM visibility and the
(00:44):
changing world and how uh AI isimpacting search.
And one of the biggest use casesthat I've found for search is
well, data analysis and patternrecognition and really taking
all the different data sets thatwe have, whether it be you know
SimwarWeb or now there's likeSparkTuro and you know uh Google
Analytics and like pulling themall together and and figuring
(01:07):
out uh a lot more about thatcustomer journey, that target
persona and the things that getpeople to buy.
I think data-driven uh digitalmarketing or or SEO is just so
powerful.
And there's been a shift ofpeople getting more comfortable
with analytics.
And I'm on a couple like large,like large teams for companies
where I bring the data set andyou know, the traditional
(01:28):
marketers are like all want tosee the data and understand it.
And um, you know, it it's agreat time to be alive.
And and so I wanted to bring onuh Charlie Grinnell uh from
Wright Metric.
He's taken a bunch of differentdata and brought it all together
and does data research and hasgot some really interesting
insights and trends for ustoday.
So, Charlie, welcome to theshow.
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Hey, thank you very much for having me.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_03 (01:52):
Yeah, so I'm I'm excited to just uh you you get
to see um big swaths of data.
I love uh when I get to talk topeople that have access to like
click metrics and you know thethe the data stream and and they
get to they get to do all kindsof fun stuff with the data.
I think I think the the name ofthe game is Data's Oil, Data's
the New Oil.
And I feel like prior to LOMs,uh the excitement got slowed
(02:17):
down a lot because you weretalking about data hygiene so
much.
And uh it was taking a long timeto like clean up the data.
So like a lot of the excitementfor marketers uh maybe wasn't
there uh when when you weresetting up data lakes and stuff
like that.
And um, you know, I think nowit's just fast and furious, and
and there's so many cool thingshappening from a consulting
(02:37):
standpoint, from a dataanalytics standpoint.
And you know, I'd love to justkind of let you set the table of
like where you see the marketgoing and some of the
interesting insights you'refinding.
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Yeah, so I think what you just said there around
there's this excitement againaround data, I think is
absolutely true.
And I think I'll use an analogy,right?
For the last 10 or 15 years inmarketing, we've been told to
like use our data, right?
Use your data, use your data,right?
And people go, yeah, yeah,totally, that sounds good.
And then they kind of like goaway and be like, okay, but now
(03:08):
what?
Oh wow, this is reallycomplicated or time consuming or
expensive, etc.
And so when I think about and Ithink where we're going is we've
been kind of sold this dream oflike going to the moon, so to
speak, with data.
But then that kind of gap thatwe've run into is like, okay,
but like, do we have a launchplatform?
Do we have spacesuits?
Do we have like engines?
(03:29):
Do we have boosters, like all ofthat sort of stuff?
And I think now what's superexciting with what we're seeing
on the AI side of things is alot of that underlying
infrastructure that wasexpensive, time consuming, and
not really sexy, the cost andresource needed to actually make
a lot of that stuff happen isgetting compressed, which is
awesome.
So, you know, what you and I, Ithink, have been talking about
(03:51):
before we started recording wasthis idea of being able to count
things now that we previouslyhaven't been able to count
because they've been costprohibitive or time prohibitive.
So I think that's really, reallyexciting.
Like, yeah, of course, AI cancreate video for us and do all
these different things, but Ithink what's really interesting
is like there have been allthese underlying things that
(04:11):
we're about to learn aboutsociety as a whole, and then
specifically in marketing thatwe're about to learn about our
customers because we can nowcount and pull meaning from all
of these different signals thatpreviously have been around us
and just kind of hiding in plainsight.
SPEAKER_03 (04:25):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the biggest
thing and my biggest kind oflike, I guess, pet peeve, I
don't know if that's the rightword, but essentially, how many
different platforms did Itypically have to log into,
right?
To to try to get meaning.
And then if you're runningmultiple campaigns, you know, it
you're you're buying like an adroll or something like that to
(04:45):
to easily roll them all togetherbecause and then run it into a
dashboard and like figure outlike, okay, where's my
attribution really?
Which that's a still a hugeissue, right?
Of like what converted white.
And AdWords always got the lastattribution.
So people dump more money intoAdWords, but it's like, man, the
(05:06):
discovery probably happened onFacebook or social.
And and I I feel like that'swhat's kind of happened in the
data recently, is it's just kindof left Google and Facebook and
it's gone everywhere.
And so now like it's startingover to figure out what that
customer journey looks like.
Even the data set of like, okay,someone had to see your ad 11
(05:26):
times before they converted.
I recently saw data on the B2Bside that it's 30.
Okay.
So there's like there's 30 touchpoints that happen before
somebody dies.
It's not that simple of I'm justgonna run some ad words and I'm
gonna get business, right?
And here's the crazy thing Isaw.
This is a little bit uh one offto what I'm talking about, but
(05:48):
I've been seeing in my socialmedia feeds, you know, people
post like these affiliatenumbers, right?
And I'm not in the affiliatespace, but they post these
affiliate numbers of how muchmoney they're making.
I saw a video of a buddy that Iknow was showing how to write
the prompts to create that whereit's all fictitious.
So all this data of like, so sowe're in a world today to kind
(06:12):
of bring it back where you can'ttrust anything, you gotta verify
it, right?
Yeah, if like and so it's like,okay, what are the data sources?
What are you using?
Like, even for me, I would tendto lean towards search console
data over GA4 data.
One is okay, I gotta getrecertified in GA4.
(06:34):
Okay, that was like one, theykeep moving stuff around, they
got some good stuff in there,but okay, but what I was finding
is we were running like ad datato a couple clients that I was
trying to get them to upgradetheir servers.
Okay, I was like, hey, your yourdata is like your servers are
slow, core web vitals, whatever.
And um, I could show them thedata of like how many people
(06:59):
were getting driven to thewebsite and then how many times
the pixel fired, and there was ahuge delta.
And I was like, people arecoming to the website and
they're bouncing before thepixel can even load and fire.
Like understanding how all thesethings work and connect is is
you know, two-thirds of thegame, I almost feel like,
(07:19):
because once you figure outwhere the data is and what you
need to do, so you get you couldget you can take the data, you
could get the analysis, and nowthe execution is the easiest
part.
And a lot of people spend somuch money on the execution, and
they spend almost no money onthe strategy.
So they're like, you know,they're the little mouse trying
(07:40):
to make to try to climb out ofwhat is that analogy?
They're trying to climb out ofthe bucket, they're trying to
turn the milk into cheese,right?
And they're like spending somuch money and effort.
I'm finding that a lot on the AIvisibility side.
People don't know what to do, sothey're doing like a bunch of
everything.
And then I come in and I'm like,okay, there's a lot of noise
here.
Like you're you're just tryingto survive.
(08:01):
Like, let's slow down, figureout what the plan is, and then
move in that direction.
I don't know.
And I I just feel like what youdo is the the the engine on that
train, right?
Like you got to have the thedata figured out.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
Yeah, well, it's it's there's a few things you
said there that I want to touchon.
So the first one being theexample that you just gave where
you showed a client where thepixel wasn't firing and all of
that.
I think what's reallyinteresting, and I'd be curious
your take on this is we've kindof had this pendulum, right?
So as soon as kind ofperformance marketing started to
come into style, so to so tosay, it was like, oh, we can
(08:37):
track everything, therefore, xequals 10.
And I think we as marketers,like the pendulum swung over
there to be like, what's ourROAS?
What's our ROI?
We're only doing things if wecan attribute them, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (08:47):
And then we look at like, okay, the Cambridge
Analytica thing happened, youknow, so there was like some
some weird feeling around that,you know, some of the social
APIs kind of cut back on whatthey were showing, all for good
reason.
Then you have all the whole likeGDPR data privacy compliance
stuff.
Yeah.
Um, and then and then you andCalifornia.
SPEAKER_03 (09:07):
I want to call out California because no one talks
about California, and peoplejust say, in the US, you're able
to operate no problem.
And they they don't mentionCalifornia.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
So so totally.
So there's so so what we've seenis kind of this like pendulum of
like, let's track everything tonow.
It's actually kind of swung backthe other way because it's like,
well, we actually can't seeeverything anymore.
And even the stuff we can see,to your point, it's biased
because Google's gonna say itcame from Google, Meta's gonna
say it came from Meta.
You know, everyone's trying toget that piece of the
(09:38):
attribution pie to be like, Iwas the one that actually did
that.
And so the kind of thenarrator's voice is like,
everybody's lying.
Um, you know, like that's kindof the thing, and and the the
answer is it's it depends.
And so then you get into yourown data.
Oh, well, people coming to oursite, the way a visit or a or a
session is calculated on everysingle website is different.
(09:59):
Plus, there's bot traffic, plusthere's etc.
etc.
Right.
So, like to your point, it'scomplicated.
SPEAKER_03 (10:05):
Um yeah, so so just to add, like bot traffic is
something that a lot of clientsdon't rule out when they're
setting up their analytics,right?
Or their own their own IPaddress, right?
So you got people at thecompany, it it it it really
creates a lot of noise uh in thedata.
(10:26):
And I I would I I would evensay, what was I gonna say?
I was gonna say something umthat was pretty thoughtful, but
I can't remember what it was.
So keep keep keep keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
Yeah, what so so what I would say is from that,
like from that data perspective,um, like that has just been a
really interesting thing tonavigate within organizations,
right?
Like how we as marketersapproach data.
What is our level of trustthere?
So that's kind of like bucketnumber one.
Bucket number two, I think, thatis really interesting, is for
the last up until kind of likeyou know, the advent of all
(11:01):
these AI tools in the last 24months, call it we as marketers
have basically let the toolsdrive what we count.
And I actually think that'swrong.
I actually think what we need todo is we need to figure out what
is the right thing to count andthen have tooling go after that.
And I think what's happened iswith AI now, you can create
(11:24):
tooling in a fairly lightweightway based on the value of the
countability of something.
And that is really, reallyinteresting.
SPEAKER_03 (11:31):
Yeah, I I think you're dead on.
And as a broader concept, that'swhat I've seen lack in most of
the tools, is there's things youcan measure.
So, so AI on the organic side ofthings has completely been
flipped upside down, right?
Like they've flipped over thecart, there's no attribution,
(11:51):
like you know, you have torethink what you're doing.
And people are like, oh, it'sjust good SEO, and and that is a
portion of it.
Um and it's gonna get you, let'ssay 70% or whatever the way
there.
But there's still differencesand there's still things that
need to happen.
But when you think about, okay,what do I need to do?
Um, it's not about trafficanymore.
(12:14):
Okay.
That's that's the thing.
That's the biggest thing.
It's like there's an inversecorrelation now.
It's like traffic's going down,leads are going up, right?
And so people are using thistraffic measurement.
And like, I mean, there was somekind of update recently, and
traffic just dropped again,right?
And then like everybody freaksout, and it's like, okay, well,
(12:36):
what is happening?
How are things evolving?
Where are things moving to?
And we're not tracking the rightthings, like we're tracking what
we know how to track, but evenkeyword ranking, okay, because
now you're talking aboutcustomization, like it's very
hard to figure out attribution,but I do think it's easier to
(12:59):
understand who your targetaudience is and how they search
and go, what should we be doingto be in the way of this?
And I think what I was gonna sayearlier was how people are
searching, what I'm finding iswhen you were saying, Oh, it
could be Facebook, it could beGoogle, it could be both, and it
could be simultaneously becausemaybe there's like something
(13:21):
streaming, okay, and thenthey're on their phone.
And like, I mean, so a lot ofthese, a lot of these like um
clear customer journey path isnot what it looks like at all.
I mean, they came out with astudy a couple years, it was
like 2003 or something likethat, where it was it looked
like um like an atom orsomething like that.
It was like you would you wouldgo out, you would come back, you
(13:41):
would, you know, it it was verymessy.
Um and and I and I think asmarketers, I guess, or
storytelling, you you want toexplain it for the client really
easily.
And it's just like, here's thefunnels and here's the steps,
and we just gate them and movethem along, and you know, this
is what it is, but it but allthis getting flipped upside down
(14:04):
is forcing us to rethink andalso how people are searching is
is evolving as well, right?
Because um, I'm finding what oneof the things you we were
talking about, you know, some ofthe competitors of the uh uh the
tool that you have.
One uh I I do use one of thosetools, and essentially what I
(14:26):
was seeing in the data is wherewere people, where was the
referral traffic going from someof these sites?
The referral traffic was goingto chat GBT, the referral
traffic was going to growbecause they they find you
somehow, like maybe it's aFacebook, whatever.
Um, they find you or Reddit orwhatever, they go to a website,
they check it out.
What do they do now?
(14:46):
Now they verify.
So they're gonna Google you,they're gonna, you know, chat
GBT you, they're gonna figureout what is the AI saying.
And we've landed some clientsrecently that are like, we don't
like what the AI says about us.
Can you help us fix that?
And I was like, Yeah, we candefinitely do that.
But like reputation managementin that category was never
(15:08):
request because there was neverAIs that were doing it.
And then like people arestarting to tell me too, hey, I
usually went to Google, but nowI'm starting to go to Chat GPT
and I'm like, oh, you're comingacross the river, right?
And I'm like, that number keepsgoing up.
So I it's I think it's just afun world to be in.
I mean, what are some of thethings that you're seeing in in
the data that were kind of umlike a standout to you or kind
(15:32):
of shocking to you that youwouldn't expect?
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
Yeah, so I mean, that diversification that you're
talking about, yes, that'sabsolutely in the data across
every industry, whether it'sfinancial services, whether it's
B2B, whether it's retail, likeyou you name it.
I think what one of the bigthings that that we're starting
to see is um these nichecommunities rise up and punch
disproportionately above theirweight.
(15:56):
So I'll give an example.
Um, let's say in the you know,mountain biking space, there
might be a big Reddit threadabout mountain biking.
Cool.
Now that means our our advice toa customer that's a mountain
biking brand isn't, hey, go geton Reddit.
It's watch what's happeninghere, watch what's being talked
about here, and then can you usethis stuff in your content, in
(16:18):
your activations, and how youyou put yourself out into the
world?
But I think what's reallyinteresting is like these
smaller communities are having adisproportionate impact on the
behaviors of the largercommunity with a delay.
So, you know, the way that whenReddit describes itself as like
the front page of the internet,the way we also describe it to
customers is like, you know,that thing you're seeing now on
(16:40):
Instagram that happened threemonths ago on Reddit.
And I think what we're seeing is4chan likes, yeah, 4chan, like
whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (16:47):
Like so just for same, same, say, same, same
concept.
Like uh for everyone that'slistening, uh, it's like how
culture gets developed fromEurope to New York to California
to maybe the rest of the world.
And then also what you'resaying, like what you saw on
Instagram, I've seen this on theinternational side more than
anything else.
Like, I love when clients arelike multinational and I'm like,
(17:11):
oh, we got to run ads in SouthAmerica.
I'm like, all right, like Ialready know exactly what's
gonna work because it's whatworked in the last two years
here that's no longer workingnow, is working there.
It's just kind of like awaterfall effect of where it
flows from and too.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
Totally.
So I think that thatdiversification is really
actually driven by people'sbehavior, right?
And so I think that's the thingis like what we're seeing is
that diversification ofbehavior.
Yes, people are still going tothe big platforms, absolutely.
But when we look at where elseare they spending time, it's
much more broad and diverse.
And a lot of organizationsaren't necessarily set up to
(17:46):
monitor or even understand that,right?
Like it's one thing, and andagain, when I say monitor and
understand that, notice that Ididn't say show up there and be
active.
Like I think that's the otherthing, is like, you know, when
when someone hears me sayReddit, you know, I'm not saying
go start spin up a Reddit likepresence as a brand.
I'm just saying understand thatthe people's attention that
you're trying to earn, that iswhere they're spending time.
(18:09):
So you as a brand, the theactivity on Reddit might be an
intelligence gathering thingthat you build into your
workflow, not necessarily we'regonna show up there.
And so I think that's like wherethe nuance is.
SPEAKER_03 (18:21):
That's a big shift because I have had clients go,
oh, the LLMs, we need to be oncore on Reddit.
And they go jump in out there,they don't understand the
culture, like right, they'vegetting they get banned, you
know, or whatever.
And it's clear self-promotion.
And totally that's not whatthese communities want, but you
should go and um what is itcalled?
(18:43):
Lurk, like go lurk around andand understand what's going on.
And from an intelligencegathering, you now know what's
going to hit your broader marketsooner.
It's kind of the you know, thethe the wellspring of of
whatever you're gonna do.
I I think that that's a great,great takeaway and a great kind
of mind shift for people.
Um what else?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
I think I think the well, so so I think with that,
like like separating, separatingwhen when when we think about
marketing, right?
Like there's like the activationoutput, but then there's also
like operationally, what are wesetting up for for?
And so I think like that's why Ialways call that thing out,
because it's like, oh, there'sthis big diversification of
channels.
And most people go, oh yeah, weneed to, we need to go be on
(19:23):
that channel.
And it's like, no, no, no.
You just need to be aware ofthat channel and you need to set
up the infrastructure tounderstand what's happening
there so that you can be betterprepared to plan whatever's
next.
So I think, yeah, that's how Iwould summarize that.
Um, the next one, this is Idon't know if this is, I'm
curious your take on this.
I think most brands have organicsocial completely backwards.
(19:44):
And what I mean by that is therise of performance marketing
and you know, paid, Facebook,Google, et cetera, has changed
the hierarchy internally, wherethat's where a lot of the
resource and focus and attentionand like political capital
behind the scenes.
Within marketing organizationshave gone, right?
So when I sat on the social teamat Red Bull, at Aritzia, and
(20:06):
when I worked in marketing RTRX,like all of a sudden we're
pouring tons and tons of moneyinto ads.
Internally, I might say, hey,this is an idea, but the person
running you know 10 millionbucks in ads, their opinion's
gonna trump me because, like,oh, well, that's where the
majority of our investment isgoing.
And so we've seen this play outwith, hey, we've made these
campaigns, we've run these ads,and like off we go.
(20:28):
And then usually what happens islike that creative just gets
shoveled over to the social teamand is like, hey, yeah, post
this.
That is completely backwards.
SPEAKER_03 (20:36):
For sure.
I mean, uh, Gary, yeah, goahead.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (20:39):
That's probably the same thing that Gary talks
about.
Organic social needs to be yourpetri dish, where what you
actually need to do is publishas much content as possible on
organic social, establish what abaseline performance is, and
anything that pops from that,that's what you double down on
and throw ad dollars on and getafter.
SPEAKER_03 (20:56):
100%.
I I think what you're saying hasbeen like the conversation for
SEOs for so long, right?
Like it fits into social aswell.
Yeah, is is just like you gotthe attribution on the ads, so
you know, you you you see thatclear line, so you throw more
money at ads, and so it's beendisproportional how much money
(21:17):
people spend on ads.
And you know, and and we we'rewe're I'm seeing it in all kinds
of models on the pay per clickjust get bit up to where the
model breaks, and it's like thisdoesn't even work anymore from a
customer acquisition standpoint.
Now we have to think about newchannels and new strategies and
workflows and you know, allthese sort of things.
(21:38):
And and so, yeah, I mean, that'sthat that's what I keep hearing
Gary say.
And I I we were doing that for along time before he even started
saying that because like youcould put it out there on
Twitter, you could put it outthere on Instagram, and like
here's the thing like I posted apost on LinkedIn recently, and I
(21:59):
knew based on how it responded,and I posted on Facebook as
well.
I knew based on how it likewouldn't give me access to the
analytics, and they're like,we're still trying to figure it
out.
I was like, Oh yeah, this one'sgoing viral, right?
Like and and so so it's youknow, it's like boom, and it's
like 30,000 views like in thefirst like three days.
(22:20):
And so I think that these kindof wins as well, showing those
to management, saying, Hey, howwould much would it cost to get
this kind of uh impression uhyou know reach?
And also these are the righttype of customers and we're
getting the right kind ofengagement.
And it's like, let's spend ourtime on what is the narrative
(22:42):
that we want to communicate andget involved in that.
And um you're you're actuallynot gonna have to spend as much
on ads on the back end toconvert.
I mean, there's so much data outthere that said if people know
your brand, they like yourbrand, they're gonna buy from
you and you just got to use theads to remind them.
But if you're trying to use theads to like full life cycle, get
(23:03):
them from awareness topurchasing, it's very expensive.
And not to say that brands can'tdo it, but you know, um, I I
just I think that all thisturnover uh with with AI is
forcing people to rethink andstart over from the ground up.
And and I just think it's such agood thing.
Now I'm finding that a lot ofbrands aren't making that change
(23:27):
fast enough and are just gettingsmashed or are getting smashed.
Like, and and you know, noweverybody's like, oh, we're
digitally transformed.
We understand that we need to beposted on social.
And then it's like, well, nowyou got to figure out AI.
So good luck.
You know, and yeah, and so I I Idon't know.
I I I'm a constant learner and Ilove talking to people and
(23:47):
hearing what they're doing.
And um, I mean, it's you know,you have to, if you're running a
business, understand the impactand how technology and social
media and and all this stufffits into it, or you or you're
really running blind.
Um, I mean, the world haschanged so much.
I I would tell you, I I I won'tspeak the name, but I was I sat
(24:09):
down with the head of AI and uha director at like a large like
Fortune 500 yesterday, and wewere talking about prospecting.
Okay, we were talking aboutsales, we were talking about
prospecting.
They're not allowed to use AI,okay?
They're they're not allowed touse lead gen, they're not
allowed to, they're not able tohave any homegrown assets,
(24:29):
they're not able to buildlanding pages.
And I said, like, what are y'alldoing?
And they're like, Well, we'recalling and I go, Can you use
LinkedIn navigator?
Nope.
I was like, So what are youdoing?
Well, the old school way, we'recalling people we know, we're
setting up meetings, we're goingto meet them, and you know,
we're you know, closing deals,and and they only eat what they
kill.
And I'm like, Y'all are scaringme.
(24:53):
Like, I was like, I was like, Icouldn't, I couldn't handle that
environment anymore to know thatthere's people competing with
you that have AI and everythingelse leveraged up to to
challenge you, and these bigbrands that are sitting on their
logos and and and the brand thatthey've developed for whatever
(25:14):
years, like um what there Iforget the name of the tool.
Uh, it was like a vibe codingtool, Wix just bought them.
Uh, I think they sold for 40million.
It was a one person uh Israel,Israeli guy that created this
whole thing in Wix bought 40million dollars, just one
person.
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
What's lovable?
Lovable's, I think they're under50 people and they're a hundred
million ARR, and they've done itin the fastest time in the
history of business.
Under 50 people, 100 millionARR.
So you want to talk about avaluation on top of that?
SPEAKER_03 (25:45):
Like, yeah, well, well, think about the businesses
that are trying to go head tohead with these guys.
SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
Like, like there's I mean, it sounds like the company
that you were talking toyesterday, uh, based on that
behavior.
SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
They base base 22, the uh Wix bottom, base I think
base 22.
Yeah, they go righthead-to-headed with lovable.
SPEAKER_01 (26:03):
Yeah, but I think about the Fortune 500 that you
just mentioned that you well,you don't have to mention that,
but I'm like, that to me soundslike sounds like Blockbuster
right before it went away.
Like, that's crazy because thereis that story about Blockbuster
where it was like people lovecoming into our stores, they
love the serendipity of runninginto their neighbor in the aisle
(26:24):
while they're browsing for amovie.
And then Netflix was like, youknow what people actually like?
Being naked in their bedwatching their show, binging it.
Like, that's actually whatpeople want, right?
So it's so interesting to seelike that behavior is still
being incentivized at these hugeorganizations, to your point.
And then we're having the riseof these little giants.
And I think that's actuallygonna be the future.
We are gonna see this littlegiant thing where we are gonna
(26:44):
have, you know, a 10-personbillion dollar company.
I think we're gonna get to thepoint where it's a one-person
billion dollar company or like athree-person billion dollar
company with all of thistechnology.
SPEAKER_03 (26:55):
Oh, I I think that that's coming, and a lot of
people have kind of predictedthat.
I mean, I think that like umright metric gives you those
superpowers, right?
Like it gives you the that dataset to figure out like I'm not
just gonna what what it whateverthe ad um the the saying is like
I you know, I I spend 100% of mybudget and I you know I know
(27:15):
where 50% went, or 50%, yeah,yeah.
Yeah, or something like that.
Which 50% worked or whatever itis.
But I mean, like if you knowlaser focused, you know, where
your customers are at, what theylike, how to communicate with
them, and how to positionyourself as a brand, and then
get in front of them, like theseare superpowers, these are legit
(27:36):
superpowers.
Like people, I even like I'mtalking about AI.
I'm like, you have like a PhD inevery single like whatever
sitting next to you as yourco-pilot, right?
As Microsoft did a good job oflike at everything you do, like
that changes the game, like itchanges the clarity, right?
(27:58):
And so now so now it's like,okay, well, uh, I'm working in
like N8N right now, and I'mlike, okay, what tools, what
access to data, what APIs can Iplug in this thing to get it
even more data to justabsolutely crush it, right?
And I mean, we're we're we'reliving in an interesting time.
So tell tell me a little bitmore about your tools so so the
(28:21):
audience can understand kind ofwhat the problem was that you
saw with what was out there, andthen what was what was the spot
that you were trying to fix?
SPEAKER_01 (28:30):
Yeah, so um before I co-founded this company eight
years ago, I worked on the brandside.
So I worked in-house at Aritzia,which is a women's fashion
company.
Before that, which is hilariousfor those of you watching,
because I'm a bald bearded guy.
Um before that, I worked inmarketing at Red Bull um on the
global social team.
And then before that, I wasactually in video production at
Arterix on the brand team.
(28:50):
And so um I worked in-house ofthese big brands, and I was uh
the the turning point for WrightMetric was when I was working at
Aritzia actually.
So um we had these monthlymeetings with the CEO and where
we were, you know, come in andtalk about like what happened
last month, what was going well.
And so we had just had akick-ass month on the social
(29:11):
side.
And so I come into this meetingand you know, thinking I'm hot
shit, and uh, you know, all ofour numbers are up into the
right, and I'm like, this istoday's gonna be a great day.
And I get in there, we startexplaining, you know, kind of
our results and like what we'vedone and whatever.
And uh CEO Brian Hill says tome, Okay, how much did the
category grow though?
(29:31):
You're saying you grew this like20%.
How much did the category grow?
And I was like, Well, I don'tknow, I don't I don't have that
data.
He's like, Well, if the categorygrew five percent, I should give
you a raise, but if the categorygrew 80%, I should fire you
right now.
And I was like, that's not how Ithought this was gonna go.
But you know what?
He was right, and so here I was,and my dashboards were telling
(29:54):
me a story because this is whatwe set up to count, but there
was no external reference pointof if we were winning or not.
Because at the end of the day,we are trying to build our own
brand, but we are also competingagainst Zara, Club Monaco, J.
Crew, Lululemon, etc.
And so, like, we needed to havethat point of view to get an
understanding is are we actuallydoing good or not?
(30:14):
And are we can we actually notjust mark our own homework?
So benchmarking.
SPEAKER_03 (30:20):
Yeah, no, I I I think that most people are not
benchmarking, like they're notkeeping track of the market and
they're not looking at seasonalstuff, right?
Like, um, I have one clientthat, you know, I'm providing
the LOM visibility for them,okay.
So I'm not running the paid ads,but they're doing weekly
(30:42):
stand-ups and they're doingsprints, and it's awesome.
Okay, they're doing great,they're they're very productive,
they're creating a lot of stuff.
The reporting on the paid adside is week over week.
And I'm like, I was like, thisdata is not helpful at all.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
Like, I'm just like, it went up by this much this
week, it went by this week, andI'm like, this doesn't matter.
Like, this doesn't matter atall.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
Like, that's nice that you've just you're like
patting yourself on the back.
Look at how great we are, right?
SPEAKER_03 (31:08):
Like, yeah, I'm like, I don't know what this
means in reference to everythingelse, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
So totally, but I think that goes back to the the
point that I made earlier whereit's like we just count things
because we've always countedthem that way because of how
easy they were to count, right?
So it's so it actually goes tolike, is this thing actually
relevant for us to count?
And if not, let's jettison itand let's figure out what is the
right, no pun intended, rightmetric to count.
(31:33):
And then cool, we can use AI tobuild tooling to start to count
that thing.
That's great.
But I think about this, youknow, this benchmarking
conversation.
I actually wonder, I'd becurious your take.
I feel like a lot of marketersdon't do it.
One, because they're they'restretched thin.
We get it, like marketers arestretched thin.
Two, I actually think there's ahuge ego part there where they
don't want to benchmark.
(31:53):
I've dealt with some people whothe last thing they wanted to do
was benchmark, and ultimatelytheir business suffers because
of it.
And I think that's a whole othertopic of conversation is like,
oh, I don't know, I'm over herekind of doing this, and maybe if
we benchmark, that wouldactually go against the
narrative that I've beenpeddling for five years in this
organization.
Right?
And so I think about this likeidea meritocracy, like the Ray
(32:14):
Dalio type thing.
How are we actually thinkingabout that in marketing?
Because now it's just toocompetitive.
We have to get to that pointbecause it is too competitive,
it is too hard.
Budgets are going under themicroscope.
And so I don't know, that'smaybe a spiky point of view that
some people might not like.
SPEAKER_03 (32:28):
Um, but you know, well, I'll have to have you back
on, Charlie.
We can we can go down thatrabbit hole because I feel like
if we open that up, like that'sgonna be a soapbox and we're
gonna go like way off.
SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
Different talk show, different talk show.
SPEAKER_03 (32:43):
Exactly.
Um, I can I can tell you just uha quick response to that is I
think that resources arestretched really thin.
Okay.
Um, I think that peopleunderquote stuff all the time.
Um the expectation of uh or orthe alignment of of what it
(33:05):
takes to get to XYZ, um, and andwhat I I'm even seeing
compression happening fromclients thinking, okay, you're
leveraging AI, so I want it, Iwant it just as good or better
for cheaper and faster.
Okay.
And it's like, okay, well, if webenchmarked um where where the
(33:26):
the the resources were prior tothis, um like it was just
getting it back into balance.
Uh, and now you're talking aboutmore compression.
And I'm I'm even seeing the thewhole model for agencies um kind
of shift.
And so again, we're we'reopening up uh kind of a whole
ball of wax or I don't know, acan of worms, a can of worms,
(33:47):
not a ball of wax, a can ofworms.
Uh we got all uh but uh I Ithink that we could we could
save that for later to talkabout um how we're dealing with
that.
A lot of coaching that I do,it's it's really interesting.
So I'm not like officiallycoaching.
Um I keep saying I will, and Iand I do have a certification
coming out that I I am workingon, but all the people that have
(34:09):
like like forced in and said,hey, we want to hire you and and
and and they want me to coachthem, I'm excited because I'm
like, oh, I'm gonna help youlike do better in your SEO or
whatever.
It always goes back to likeoperationally, how are you
running the business?
Here are all the here are thethings that I'm dealing with.
And so like again, the more youcan see on how other people are
(34:33):
operating to bring it back tobenchmarking to know, well, this
is what's working, and theseguys are making money, and how
you're doing it might not be theright way, that helps you, gives
you insight into what's goingon.
And and also I think that youknow, don't follow the lemmings
off the cliff, right?
So like if someone's running anad and you look at it and you're
like, okay, they've been runningthis ad for a long time, and
(34:55):
this ad must be working, sowe're gonna like copy it, like
use that as a starting point.
But like sometimes, like, Imean, I've seen ad campaigns
where like they're advertisingall across the country and it's
just running wild.
Like some people don't even knowthat they they don't even have
have access to ad spin that's onsome credit card that's like
running wild.
Like what we started, what westarted doing is setting up
(35:18):
virtual cards for every client,okay, and then like putting caps
on it.
So so if we're running ads forthem, like I know where the ad
spin is, we're shutting it down.
That's an operational thing, butman, people are just moving so
fast to get to the next thing,they they don't have time to to
to really look at it and toreally do the research.
And so tools that help you dothat are tools really, I think
(35:40):
the the biggest need in thespace, in my opinion, is taking
all these different inputs andbringing them together, like
bringing that data togetherwhere you can actually analyze
and do something with it, likeyou know, and there's inherent
concerns with MPC servers, likeif you don't know what black box
you're getting attached to, whatpeople are doing with your data.
(36:01):
And you know, I would just tellyou like Chat GBT, like I mean,
I like if you will listen topodcasts, like they're doing
something with your data, okay?
And then Facebook, what did theyannounce on the 16th?
So this is probably coming outafter the 16th.
Did you know that Facebook, andI think LinkedIn already did
this, they are now saying, uh,we're gonna do AI, everything
(36:22):
with your data, all the stuffthat that's on any of our
platforms, we're loading it tothe AI, we're gonna build like a
model uh about you and aroundyou unless you uncheck that box.
Like, yes, that's bad, and likethere's a certain degree of like
it's inevitable if you're usingthese platforms, you you are the
(36:42):
product, but I don't thinkthey've ever been able to
leverage the data.
Like they were collecting allthe data knewing this day would
come.
That's what I think, right?
They've been they've beencollecting all this data, but
now the insights that you canget um are just incredible, but
you got to have all that datatogether and you have to have it
cleaned up in a way that likethe LLMs can can understand and
(37:05):
analyze it.
And so tools like yours help umbring all that data into one
house.
Uh, and then you can you put agentic wrapper inside your tool.
And you know, there's just gonnabe a lot of things that are
coming that I don't think peopleare prepared for, but are gonna
be really, really powerful andare gonna create that
disproportionate leverage to thepeople that invest in this.
(37:28):
And I think that digitalmarketers, again, I'm on a
soapbox a little bit, are wellpositioned because things
continue to change for them.
So they're normal with this kindof like modus apparendi.
And so I think it's a huge uhadvantage for anybody that's
listening, that's a marketingagency to go, okay, it's
changing again.
(37:48):
Like, don't get burnt out bythat.
Get excited about that becauseif you start competing in
adjacent businesses to this, uhyou're gonna be unmatched
because uh not everybody wantsto keep reinventing the wheel.
And once they've figured out howto do something, what I've seen
in a lot of these uh legacybusinesses or you know, Fortune
500 companies, like not all ofthem, but a lot of them have
(38:11):
like a culture that's stuck inits ways, and they're they just
think that they can operate thesame way that they've always
been operating, and they canjust outspend and they can
outbrand, which like TV ads arelike non existent, like even
terrestrial radio.
I had an old client that wasspending a million dollars a
month on terrestrial radio andlike what was it twenty thousand
(38:34):
dollars or something or thirtythousand dollars on paid ads,
and then even less on that onSEO.
And I was like, I understandthat this is what you've always
done, but I'm telling you, thisis not the right way to go.
And you know, they wouldn'tlisten, and then I got the
filings that they're they youknow they're getting dissolved,
so you know um or yeah, yeah,shocker, exactly.
(38:58):
Um, but anyway, so I would lovewe're we're kind of getting
close to time, but I would lovefor you to like rapid fire,
maybe share some interestinginsights or things that you
found in the data that peoplemight not know.
We could cliche say it's likethe unknown secrets of internet
marketing, or what are someinternet marketing secrets that
you can share of things thatpeople might not know, but you
(39:19):
know because you see the data.
Um, I would love to hear kind ofrapid fire some of those things,
and then totally if you couldshare um how people can find out
uh more about what you'retalking about and uh check out
the product because I know it'sdot co, not dot com, which yeah,
which is is and dot co is whatwhat country is it you know?
What what country is itactually?
SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
I actually don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (39:41):
Oh, it's actually a country, it's actually a country
link.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
I'm like, what yeah, what is I'm like, is it isn't it
Colorado?
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
Oh yeah, there you go.
Exactly.
We're so like US centric here,like we have no like concept of
totally.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
I'm like, I don't know what dot co is.
I think so so one thing I wouldsay just more.
More broadly around people andbehaviors.
We work with a lot of big, bigbrands, and a lot of people on
the brand side tend to thinkabout personas, and when they
think about personas, they thinkabout them demographically.
And we think that's a massivemistake.
You need to think about thembehaviorally.
(40:17):
And I'll give an example.
This is a quick story about mymom and I.
So my mom, love you, mom, she's67, just said her name out loud
or her age out loud.
She'd be pissed if she wassitting here.
Okay, so I'm over at my mom'shouse, and we're talking in her
kitchen.
And on her kitchen counter, shehas an iPad.
Okay.
So we're talking, and she goes,she's forgetting something, and
(40:38):
she's like, ah, that's gonna bugme if I don't look this up.
I'm gonna Google that.
So she walks over to the iPad,and me being the like digital
behavior nerd, I'm kind ofkicking back like this, being
like, okay, she walks over, sheopens the YouTube app, and and
I'm going like, I'm like,there's no way my 67-year-old
mother, who's an accountant,knows that Google owns YouTube.
(41:01):
There's no way she knows that.
And she goes, just let me Googlethat.
So she types in her query, hitssearch, and right before she's
about to touch a video, I go,Mom, stop, stop.
What are you doing?
And she goes, What?
I'm Googling.
And I'm like, you're on YouTube.
And she goes, Oh, Charlie, Idon't want to read, I want to
watch.
SPEAKER_05 (41:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
And that behavior, what I just described, would
typically be associated withADHD 20-year-olds.
My mom is 67.
She's scrolling like a21-year-old.
And that actually, that thatstory is so important because
what we're actually seeing inall the data is these behaviors
(41:41):
don't just attach todemographics, they attach to
much broader groups of people.
SPEAKER_03 (41:47):
So Charlie, I got uh interesting uh story for you
like that.
I'll be brief.
My uh business partner's wife uhwanted to become an influencer
online and wanted some attentiononline, I guess.
And uh, you know, to grow herbusiness, of course, she has a
spa and she, you know, she hadto grow, she wanted to grow her
business.
So we started using like dataanalytics and we started doing
(42:09):
research.
And what I came up with was likethis was six years ago, okay,
like five, six years ago.
And I said, We need to get onTikTok.
And that was when everybody waslike, TikToks for you know, uh,
all these you know, tweens andall this kind of stuff.
And I said, I said, the searchand and so basically I also had
(42:30):
to identify like what do we wantto talk about?
Metapause.
So metapause on TikTok years agoover a million followers now.
Like 300,000 on Facebook.
Like we basically, like, wesaid, okay, like here's demand
that's not being serviced here.
Um, there's like low quality,there's not a lot of uh a lot of
(42:53):
videos to serve.
Let's start creating videos forthis.
We followed the data, and thenfrom there we got all this
visibility, and then we startedto fan out uh on what we were
doing.
And oh, by the way, dot co isColumbia.
So Columbia, okay, there we go.
And people use it as I guesscorporation or company, but I I
(43:14):
looked it up.
Co is originally was originallyrepresenting for Columbia, but
has been relaunched as a globaldomain for companies, startups,
individuals, blah, blah, blah,blah, like how you're using it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:24):
Um, there we go.
SPEAKER_03 (43:25):
Right?
Right, but random, random facts.
Um, very random.
SPEAKER_01 (43:28):
That story, though, is crazy.
Like what you just said aboutlike the the finding finding the
attention and then uh supplyingthat demand with something
that's valuable.
Like, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (43:40):
You know, but I wouldn't like no one would have
guessed that.
No one would have guessed likethis is how we're gonna build,
like, uh unless you have thedata, like the data helped
inform the decision.
Um, I was actually uh in aclient's office yesterday, and
they have a couple different uhservice areas they wanted to go
after.
And basically we were goingthrough search data, uh uh cost
(44:00):
per click, how difficulty it isto rank.
Um, we were thinking about someuh demographics.
I was asking some questionsbecause I didn't know enough of
what it was.
Um, we were using another toolas well, and and basically I was
like, okay, boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
This this is a decent amount ofvolume.
Uh, the cost per click issimilar to what you want to go
(44:23):
after, but it better aligns withyour brand.
So, you know, this is probablywhat we should go after.
And it's actually what theyoriginally wanted to go after,
but we went through that wholelife cycle process to determine
this is the right uh fit, thisis the right brand, and this is
what we need to do.
So it gave it a lot moreconfidence to like, okay, let's
(44:43):
kick it into full gear.
But, you know, there was a lotof like I think that a lot of
people get paralyzed todaybecause there's too many options
or they want optionality.
I feel like everybody wantsoptionality, and so they don't
lean into what they need.
And the data plus the analysisgets you to that point to to
(45:04):
know that, okay, I'm on theright track.
I can I can focus on that, I canlean into it without too much
debate.
I don't know.
Totally.
SPEAKER_01 (45:11):
Well, and I think to the point that I made earlier, I
think we actually need to loosenour grip a little bit.
And what I mean by that is thiswhole attribution performance
marketing x equals 10, what's myrow as?
We need to loosen that grip andjust directionally.
So to your point about likeTikTok or Metapause or whatever
it is, finding the thing, theright thing to talk about
(45:34):
doesn't have to be, oh, I need17 different data points to back
this up.
It's like, hey, this onequantifies attention.
It might be video views, itmight be engagements, it might
be whatever the thing is.
All of those three things, if wezoom out a little bit, those
three things are saying that,like, hey, there's some
attention here.
Cool, let's go after that.
SPEAKER_05 (45:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:52):
Right?
Like, I think that's also thething is like we as that to your
point about like analysisparalysis, is like we we get out
and we're like, oh, it has to beexact.
And I actually don't think ithas to be exact, it just has to
be directionally correct becauseeven if it is exact, that that's
what you should do, there'sstill going to be different
nuances and variables in thecreative, in the targeting, in
the spend, in all of thosedifferent things that it's never
(46:15):
going to be perfect.
And so I actually think we needto loosen our grip a little bit
and still use this stuff assignal for what it is and use it
to guide us, but also not be solike, oh, and now I'm not saying
don't be rigorous with it.
There's a there's a balance,right?
And so I think it's that finebalance of of loosening up the
grip, listening to the rightsignals, and then being a
(46:37):
marketer and being creative tothen try and problem solve to
create something that drives theoutcome that we want.
SPEAKER_03 (46:44):
Charlie, great point.
I think it's a great point toend on.
I think uh I I've really enjoyedour discussion.
And I I think you're a greateducator.
I I I I would love to appreciateyou saying that.
Yeah, I would love to hear kindof maybe any speaking talks you
have coming up, uh, where you'reon social, uh, how do people
find out more, follow you?
Because I think you have somereally great insights to share.
SPEAKER_01 (47:07):
Well, I appreciate you having me on.
Yeah, the best place to followme is on LinkedIn.
I'm very active there.
I publish a, I think I publishright now a new video every
single day.
Um, so yeah, if you want tocontinue to hear my awful voice,
you can go there.
Um and I don't know if this is agood thing or a bad thing, but I
put my email on LinkedIn.
So if people have questions,they can shoot me an email
there.
That's a that's a very I don'tknow if I it was a good idea at
(47:29):
the time.
SPEAKER_03 (47:30):
I I wish I I'm I'm setting up a workflow to help me
sort emails because I would loveto have the time to respond to
to everyone.
Um I I just need to help doingit because I I think this time
right now is is so difficult andI just get flooded with with all
kinds of stuff.
And sometimes I miss it with allthe kind of um you know noise
(47:51):
that's out there.
And so so I I I I hats off toyou for being able to do that.
Um, you know, uh if they want tocheck out your your platform, uh
write metric.co.
Um tell us a little bit aboutthe platform, give me the
elevator pitch real quick beforewe go.
SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
Yeah, so basically what we've done is uh focus on
three types of research audienceresearch, competitive
benchmarking, and contentinsight.
Um, and so what we've done iswe've basically bought access to
over 30 different data tools.
We pull all that stuff into oneplace, and then we have a team
of analysts and strategists thatactually work with you to scope
(48:28):
out what your research questionsare and turn things around quite
quickly, because we've alsobuilt our own proprietary
tooling behind the scenes to beable to enrich some of that data
that we already have access to.
Um, and it's funny, some of thethings that you said, like
having uh what is it, a problemhalf well stated is a problem
half solved.
We spend a lot of our timeworking with customers actually
getting clear on what are theunderlying business questions,
(48:50):
because that's gonna actuallydictate the types of research
that you need.
And oftentimes when people comeat us, they have, oh, I need to
look at this, and we're like,Yeah, we can totally answer that
for you.
But what is this actuallyladdering up to?
And then they go, Oh my gosh, Iactually need this and this and
this and this and this.
And that's not because we wantto sell them more, it's just
more so like answer thequestion, like actually just get
the question answered so thatyou can go on with your day and
(49:10):
move forward as a business.
So um, yeah, we've been doing itfor gosh, eight years now.
Um, we primarily work uh in theconsumer space.
We are doing more B2B nowbecause there are some better
data sets coming online for thatsort of thing.
Um, but our main focus is likehow can we harness all of these
external data sources?
Um, you know, most brands havetheir internal house in order,
(49:32):
they can know what's going on intheir ecosystem, but we're able
to give them that holisticpicture into what's happening
outside of their ecosystem in anaggregated way.
SPEAKER_03 (49:41):
Awesome.
Well, Charlie, thanks so muchfor coming on.
Uh, it was a pleasure havingyou.
Uh, everyone, if you want togrow your business with the
largest, most powerful planettool on the planet, the
internet, but now I feel likeLOMs maybe like are uh
outshining it to a certaindegree, right?
Like I think there's an AIrevolution coming.
(50:02):
Um reach out to EWR for morerevenue in your business.
Uh, check out uh uh Write Metricuh for more insights into your
business.
Uh until the next time, my nameis Matt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.
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