December 1, 2025 • 52 mins
Matthew Bertram and Chris Krimitsos dive into how creators and brands can grow faster together amid an AI content surge, with real case studies from Podfest and beyond. We map a practical playbook: entity SEO, the 7-11-4 rule, a clip-first workflow, and partnership models that beat CPMs.
• creator economy trends and the shift to video
• long form for trust, shorts for discovery
• entity SEO, consistent handles and domains
• the 7-11-4 rule for brand familiarity
• platform economics with YouTube as home base
• partnership deals beyond CPMs and MGs
• measuring hidden ROI and affiliate leakage
• NIL, rights and repurposing content
• brand control vs creator authenticity
• B2B adoption steps, timelines and tests
Guest Contact Information:
Website: chriskrimitsos.com
Instagram: instagram.com/chriskrimitsos
Facebook: facebook.com/chriskrimitsos
More from EWR and Matthew:
Leave us a review wherever you listen: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or Amazon Podcast
Free SEO Consultation: www.ewrdigital.com/discovery-call
With over 5 million downloads, The Best SEO Podcast has been the go-to show for digital marketers, business owners, and entrepreneurs wanting real-world strategies to grow online.
Now, host Matthew Bertram — creator of LLM Visibility™ and the LLM Visibility Stack™, and Lead Strategist at EWR Digital — takes the conversation beyond traditional SEO into the AI era of discoverability.
Each week, Matthew dives into the tactics, frameworks, and insights that matter most in a world where search engines, large language models, and answer engines are reshaping how people find, trust, and choose businesses. From SEO and AI-driven marketing to executive-level growth strategy, you’ll hear expert interviews, deep-dive discussions, and actionable strategies to help you stay ahead of the curve.
Find more episodes here:
Follow us on:
Facebook: @bestseopodcast
Instagram: @thebestseopodcast
Tiktok: @bestseopodcast
LinkedIn: @bestseopodcast
Connect With Matthew Bertram:
Website: www.matthewbertram.com
Instagram: @matt_bertram_live
LinkedIn: @mattbertramlive
Powered by: ewrdigital.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_03 (00:13):
Howdy, welcome back to another fun-filled episode of
the Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing, which we are going to
brand the best field podcast,which we've been running for 12
years.
There's an identity crisis thatI'm going through that Chris, we
can talk about.
Chris has also been involved.
This is Chris Crematos.
He's the founder of Podfest.
He's a longtime friend.
(00:33):
I can't believe I hadn't had himon before.
Uh, for those of you watching,I'm wearing a Podfest shirt.
Uh, he's also um, let me let mesay, you've won the Gaynus Book
of World Records for the mostnumber of podcasts in a certain
period of time.
What else, Chris?
You're doing all kinds of stuff.
I would love to just kind ofhear what you're doing.
(00:55):
But Chris, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
So, Matt, yeah, just a backstory.
Run Podfest, it's a very largecommunity of creators that got
started about 12 years ago.
And during COVID, we wentvirtual, and that's when we got
awarded the largest virtualevent for podcast attendees via
Guinness World Records.
And then we did it again thenext year and broke our record.
(01:18):
Uh, and then we retired itbecause it's just a lot of work
on the accounting side for uhGuinness World Records.
And in the process, Podfestexpanded.
We we just did one last year.
We went to Bogota, Colombia, andthen it was our second ever
Podfest Asia out of Manila.
So we've been going to Asia nowfor two years.
So I would consider myself anevangelist for creators,
(01:41):
specifically people thatconsider themselves podcasters.
And I started when podcastingwas majority of it was audio.
Now I would say the majority ofit is video and it's everywhere.
So um that's kind of my purview.
And I've seen a lot of casestudies because I see I've seen
thousands of people come acrossmy desk.
So when someone gives you theirexperience, they have it from
(02:03):
their perspective.
My perspective is literallythousands of creators.
So I see what is possible on somany different levels.
Um, when I from time to timewhen I do consulting, I have a
unique vantage point because Ikind of know certain things that
other people wouldn't thinkworks, or you know, vice versa.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
Well, you know, YouTube, Google even stated
YouTube is the shift that it'smaking towards that.
And I I recently just did apodcast with uh originality.ai's
founder uh about well, thecontent proliferation that's
happening with LLMs.
Um, I think the shift to videoand and YouTube is there there
(02:43):
are going to be those um and andthere is today uh influencers
that are all AI, butpredominantly the the the spam
of creation of content is is notin videos and is not in audio
podcast as of right now.
So also the LLMs from avisibility standpoint need a lot
(03:10):
of human interaction to train uhtheir data sets.
So the synthetic data uh doesn'tcome in.
So podcasting or long formcontent is incredibly important.
And and and like you, we startedthis 12 years ago when before
podcasting was cool.
It was actually like just like atraining to the team on how to
(03:31):
do it.
It wasn't really even publicfacing.
Um and it was just a great wayto uh catalogue what's going on
and and and one to many tocommunicate messaging.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Um yeah, all I could tell you is with AI, it's gonna
get dicey because I don't thinkpeople understand the amount of
content that AI could create onits own.
SPEAKER_03 (03:57):
So like well, the the LM notebooks are pretty
interesting, right?
You can drop an article, theytalk to each other, you know,
you you open up the parametersand voices on that.
It it's gonna be it's gonna bereal wild.
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Yeah.
So what I my advice to anyone isgrab your grab your audience now
and carry them into the future,because as we move forward, it's
gonna get very difficult, unlessthe algorithms weigh human
creators heavier than AIcreators.
But that's kind of the racewe're in at this point.
SPEAKER_03 (04:29):
So that leads into something that I've talked about
a little bit, but I'm dealingwith this issue.
If you, anybody watching, if yousee my name is Matthew, Matt in
parentheses, Bertram.
Okay.
Um, right now I've been creatingcontent for so long uh across
the internet.
Google and the knowledge graphviews me as two different people
(04:51):
because I've had differentroles, uh, different titles.
Um, there's also a couple otherMatthews out there.
I also couldn't get my name asmy handle.
So if you can go get your nameas your handle, go do that.
Go buy your domain.
I have MatthewBertram.com.
For sure, yeah.
Right.
I got MatthewBertram.com, but Ihave gone by Matt.
So uh real real issues.
(05:13):
Um, and then there's also somehighly influential people in
different uh industries onlineas well.
So it's getting all mixed up.
And so, you know, defining whoyou are as a real person, as an
entity on different channels,unifying that, um, taking the
content.
And one of the frameworks wetalk about, Chris, a lot of is a
(05:36):
framework.
I think it was 2004, a paperthat Google put out called the
7114 rule.
That that was not what thepaper's called, but basically
that's essentially like thesummary of it is create seven
hours of content.
They need to see your brand fourtimes or sorry, 11 times on four
different channels.
So 7114.
So seven hours of content, uh,see your brand logo, whatever,
(05:59):
11 times uh on four differentchannels.
And that framework um helpspeople understand who you are
and and build kind of that thatbrand lift or that brand
association.
And I've been telling businessesand evangelizing podcasting for
so long because it's the bestway to one-to-many marketing, as
(06:20):
well as um creating that sevenhours of content.
If they binge, listen to yourpodcast, look at your website,
talk to you, you're at anadvantage because you have more
content consumption by adecision maker than somebody
else that doesn't.
And through a podcast or a videopodcast, video first podcast,
you're gonna connect with peopleon a different level.
(06:41):
I mean, I know you get this allthe time, but but people that
hear you, right, they don't eventhey don't know you, but when
they meet you in person, it'slike they know you, and then
you're at a disadvantage becauseyou don't maybe know them,
right?
Like I have you had experienceslike that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
I have, and and I do have a piece of advice when
creating content.
Um, I always say think of youryour long form content in terms
of short form.
And what I mean by that is howmany clips, like when when
you're doing a long time ago, Imade a documentary for uh
podcasting called the Messengersof Podcast documentary, and we
got distribution, then I took itoff and I put it up on YouTube
(07:19):
for free.
But I remember when I'dinterview anyone, if anyone's
ever made a documentary, you'rethinking of how many sound bites
did I get out of that interview?
Because you need that to make amovie, uh, to make it all
bridge.
When you're doing a long forminterview, you need to think to
yourself, how many you know,five-minute clips did I get that
are clippable for people todigest?
Because the long form might notgo viral, but one of the clips
(07:42):
might get three million views,and then the long form you know
gets a hundred thousand viewsthanks to that uh you know, uh
funnel building from threemillion to that now.
They want to see the long form.
So just when you're creatingcontent, you got to think of it.
And the the person that does itthe best right now is Shannon
Sharp, uh Club Shayshae.
He, when he's interviewingsomeone, he has notes that his
(08:04):
team has uh prepared for him,and he's always asking questions
that they know that they couldmake a really badass thumbnail.
So, like if he's interviewing, Idon't know, a wrestler, he's
always gonna ask him, what wasit like working with Vince?
They already know that they havea thumbnail with Vince McMahon.
People are gonna click on that.
What was it like working withStephanie McMahon?
They just go down the line ofall the big names or whatever
they could find.
(08:24):
And his questions, so then hehas to do a dance and weave it
into an interview process, buthe's literally going for clips
in a three-hour uh show, hemight get 12-15 clips.
Those clips now are generatingtons of revenue and tons of uh
views because that's what peoplethe super fans will watch the
long form, but the casual fanswill watch the clips and might
(08:46):
watch the long form.
SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
Yeah, I I see the the clips being so important to
get people's interest to tobring them back.
What I see not happening verywell is people are putting out
clips on a clip uh channel, andthen they're not linking to the
full interview because a lot oftimes people watch the clip, or
at least I do, and I want towatch the full interview, and I
(09:08):
can't find it, right?
Then there's no identifying wayto know who that is.
Like there's a lot of kind oftechnical stuff, and then I
mean, what are your thoughtsaround that?
Have you seen that?
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
I mean, I would link it, but uh, you know, nowadays
with with everything changing soquick, I wonder if there's a
strategy why they don't link it.
But I personally link to thelong form because my objective
is to get as many hardcorefollowers that absorb my content
as I can if I were to advise acontent creator.
But there's so many differentmonetization strategies now.
(09:40):
You always want to ask why theperson is doing what they're
doing because maybe they'redoing something you haven't
thought of yet.
But um, I was just advising, Iwent to a show for uh
Aviculture, that's the peoplethat love birds, and I met two
influencers there.
And you know what I foundinteresting, um, Matt, they had
millions of views.
Um, the difference was one ofthem started on YouTube, the
(10:03):
other one started on everythingelse.
And even though the other onethat's on every other platform
with almost 100 million views,the guy on YouTube is making
almost as much with 100,000views.
So, like you have to really becareful of your platforms
because YouTube is a creatorplatform that pays.
Podcasting is also a creatorplatform that you get paid
through Spotify, span, differentnetworks.
(10:25):
You could be on you could be agiant on TikTok and Instagram
and barely make a couple grand amonth.
So it's like you really got toknow where the the levers of of
income come in so you could beprofitable and and keep making
great content.
If you're a full-time contentcreator, that is.
SPEAKER_03 (10:40):
Yeah, I and I I feel like YouTube is is the home
base, like that's that's thehome page of if if you're
creating content online.
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
YouTube is is it, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
And and everything should roll up into that.
How how do you view like um, youknow, I guess there's different
terms, but there's like snacks,but then there's like the
10-minute clips.
Like, I feel like those are likewhere do those fit in into the
in into the ecosystem?
I'm curious, like if maybe likethink in terms of also a
business.
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
Yeah, so if you're if you're doing a long form
interview, so for me, long form,half hour more, you know, an
hour, hour and a half.
You you need to figure out howmany short uh segments can you
get.
And that could be for me, ashort segment from a long form
would be five minutes, maybeeight minutes if it's going
really good.
Um, for the really short shorts,those are the minutes or less.
(11:34):
Um, they can help your longform, but you gotta just what's
weird about those is they couldbe so different and they could
still grow your audience.
I'll give you an example.
I talked to a guy that's afamous short sale trader, he he
short sales the market, and hewould do shorts that were
strategic and nothing happened.
(11:54):
So then he's like, screw it, I'mjust gonna eat steak.
So he'd go to his restaurant andeat steak, and he'd record his
steaks.
And then he was like, Well, letme just title it differently.
And he would title it short saletrader eat steak.
And what would happen wasstrategically that grew.
They're like, Oh, who is a shortsale?
And then it would intrigue themto watch the long form content.
(12:15):
So sometimes it's weird stufflike that on the short form that
now has a viral audience, andlike, I like this guy, let me
watch his advice on shortselling the market, um, which is
a financial term of you know,you're you're betting that the
market's going down or whatever,or or stock is going down.
But it doesn't matter what, andthen I thought that was a weird
uh thing, but then we had threeother creators give us unique
(12:35):
examples very similar to that.
They're like, hey, my short formis a little different, but I
make sure they know what I do,and then it'll tie back to the
mothership, which is what youjust talked about five-minute,
10-minute clips, or the longform.
SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
You know, I I put together a book called No Light
Trust.
And I you have a book, uh uhStart Start Messy, right?
Start ugly.
Start uh start ugly.
Uh great book.
I would encourage everybody togo get it if you're on the
fence.
Uh, it was it was really helpfulto say you gotta start and you
gotta get going.
And even if it's ugly, it'sgonna get better, but you gotta
(13:12):
start somewhere.
It's just like going to the gymor that's not gonna be perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
Yeah, but but no like trust is like what you're
talking about.
People gotta know who you are.
They gotta like have some kindof association or like you
before they care about what yousay, if anything.
So that kind of falls in line isyou know, hey, I like steak.
This guy likes steak.
I like like I one of my bestposts on Facebook.
I did this Facebook challengeposting every day.
(13:38):
Um, and I got about 20,000views, and I have like no
falling on on Facebookspecifically.
You know what?
One of the best pictures I didwas that got views was I was
making breakfast for uh like abunch of people that were
staying at our house thissummer, and it was just a
picture of plates of eggs.
(13:59):
Like I just was like I took apicture of all these plates of
eggs, and that picture I thinkdid better than anything else I
ever posted, right?
And so when people are postingpictures of food, everybody can
associate with that or like thatand uh build that build that
connection.
So that's that's what you'retrying to do.
Because if someone can listen toyour podcast, they get to know
(14:21):
you, but but if they don't knowyou, how do they get associated
with you?
There's got to be a uh interesttrigger.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Yeah, it'd be like it'd be like CMO obsesses over
his eggs or you know, marketinguh expert.
I I'm always thinking titles.
My wife is in the meditationspace, and she was talking to
some other channels, like abouttheir YouTube specifically.
So I'm talking about YouTubehere, and she goes, How are you
guys getting views?
And they go, you know what'sinteresting?
We did these shorts of behindthe scenes, like it wasn't even
(14:50):
a meditation of like creating achildren's um thing, and one of
them went viral, and thatliterally brought 10,000
subscribers to the channel.
Because if that thing bringsmillions, like, oh, I wonder
what that sounds like.
Oh, I like it, and then itdrives them in.
So, what I found with shortform, and and on her short form,
she creates mini snippets of themeditation, it works, but it
(15:10):
doesn't work great.
And like you said, sometimesmaybe it's a no-like and trust.
So, what I'm learning is yougotta experiment and find what
works for you because it'ssometimes the off-beat stuff,
like you said, it's a no-liketrust, then it builds to the the
the mother content, which iswhat it is the meditation
itself.
SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
Yeah, her her platform is is huge and has a
ton of people on it, um, doingdifferent kinds of meditations.
Yeah, she's just gotta grabpeople and bring people in.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
But but I yeah, like watching a clip of a meditation
doesn't have the same uh yeah,but having her on a microphone
with the children, here's mystory, here's what I do.
Yeah, but yeah, let me hearthat.
Let me hear that.
What is that?
Maybe she plays a sample, maybejust a second or two, and then
it's like, yeah, make sure toclick if you want to listen to
it.
It intrigues people.
(15:56):
You know what we did uhrecently?
We just launched a uh birthdayand celebration meditation
channel.
So literally, all it is is forpeople's birthdays, anniversary,
celebrations, meditations.
It's already doing really well.
SPEAKER_03 (16:07):
I love that, I love that.
I want to switch gears and lookat this from a company
standpoint, um, or um somebodythat wants to leverage these
creators.
Maybe they're, you know, abusiness owner or they're
in-house marketer, and they'relike, hey, we have budget for
experimental things, we want tosponsor some podcasts, or we
(16:30):
want to create like a shortseries or partner with the
influencer, but but they're notthe influencer themselves.
How have you seen uh thoseopportunities work to kind of uh
build the path a little bit morefor creators to find um revenue
outside of just the monetizationon the channels?
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
So here's my suggestion if you're if someone
that's listening to this is aCMO of a big brand, they got
budgets and they want to play inthis space.
The biggest problem is most ofthem play scared.
And the challenge is when youplay scared with creators, it
doesn't work well.
So you want to give you thecreators that you like in the
space, and you want to tell themthat you have money that you're
(17:15):
gonna invest with them as theirpartner.
But I would lean on them andhave them give you suggestions
of how they think they couldgrow your brand and work with
them and their vision.
All too often, what I've seen isbrands will dictate every little
thing down to the commas and theperiods.
The creators do their best, butit doesn't really blow up a
(17:36):
brand.
Um I I would definitely so theway you would do it is you find
if I'm a brand and I want tofind, I'll give you an example.
So the best way I could do isjust talk about a case study
that I actually know about.
Um my buddy Gabe Beluisi, Ihelped produce his show in the
early days.
I still help advise, but reallyhe does most of it now.
He's the largest golf in the US,anyways, golf review channel for
(17:58):
equipment.
There's bigger ones in the UK,but he's like the top American,
top two or three.
Golf Review.
There was a company called PlayBetter that sells their supply
house that sells golf equipment,and they their their claim to
fame is free shipping, right?
So when Gabe was still, I thinkhe had just hit 10,000 subs,
(18:18):
they said, Hey, we don't knowhow this works.
Can we create something and testit out?
And they were very honest towith the creator, and then they
gave Gabe a lot of latitude.
Well, all I could tell you isGabe has brought in millions and
dollars, one creator, millionsof dollars of sales into this
supply house where they wentfrom a half a dozen employees to
they're they're huge now,they're very big.
(18:40):
But it was that partnership thatworked well, and then they
figured out a way to um thatpartnership's going on three,
four years now.
So, like that long-termpartnership could literally move
seven, sometimes eight figuresjust with one small creator.
As they grow, you grow withthem.
Um, so I would recommend talkingto the brands, finding the
(19:01):
creators you like, andunderstanding it doesn't have to
be the biggest creator.
It could be a crew, I I likecreators on the rise because
their fan bases are excited togrow with them and they're
excited to try new things.
So um, and that is a termcreator on the rise within like
metrics and stuff.
Um, they do metric that peoplethat are really uh bouncing off
(19:22):
the the metrics.
SPEAKER_03 (19:24):
I I think it'd be good to speak to um a lot of
times, just uh when people aredipping into uh podcast
partnerships or advertising,they're just looking at CPMs.
Okay, they're just looking atCPMs, but like the the horse
network or the the equestriannetwork, like the like can you
share some of those stories?
(19:45):
Because if you have a reallyengaged audience, um, the and
the and the value of what you'reselling depending on the ticket
price, uh, you don't have tohave as many CPMs to to be
partner with that.
That's what we do at OGGN.
You know, it's very targetedtowards oil and gas.
And so it's not a pure CPM gamewhen people want to sponsor
(20:09):
shows in that arena.
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Yeah, so if you're a brand with budgets, I would not
you could do CPMs, that's fine,but if you could create like a
true partner, so what happenswith YouTubers?
I'll just share with you whathappens, and then I'll tell you
the horse radio uh example.
What happens with YouTubers isthey might have a video that has
50,000 and the next video has2,000.
The moment you tie them to aCPM, they're all stressed out
that they're not gonna meettheir goals.
(20:32):
If you could tie it to a monthlyprogram and say, hey, we want to
be your partner, let's just do a90-day test and you you give
them free range.
Say, we don't want let's roundup the numbers, you give them
the benefit of the doubt, andthen you as a brand do a test,
see how you like it.
If you like them, then figureout uh what they call minimum
guarantee, like, hey, we'regonna invest two grand a month
for the next year.
But we need you to mention us inyou know one video every three
(20:57):
times, but that that repetitionby that end of the year, you're
gonna see some movement with thegolf example.
What that supply house did wasthey said, listen, we're gonna
give you access to uh thesethese cool gadgets before they
go out so you could review them.
Just throw us a mention that wehave this equipment at our
supply house.
And it really exploded thenumbers for horse radio network.
We have a friend, you and I,named Glenn the Geek.
(21:20):
He started the horse radionetwork, and there was a guy
that created a vibrating uhpitchfork for horse manure, and
he went to Home Depot andthey're like, dude,$200 for a
shovel.
He was an inventor, so he didn'tknow.
He went to Home Depot, like,ain't no one buying a$200
vibrating shovel.
So then he went to Lowe's.
He's like, oh, Lowe's is higherend, they'll they're gonna love
(21:41):
this.
They're like, nah, we're notthis is way over our skew.
So then the guy almost gave up,but he's like, tractor supply,
that's I finally found my home.
And tractor supply is like, whatare you nuts?
200 bucks for a vibratingpitchfork?
Somehow, someone said to him,You gotta call Glenn before you
give up on your invention.
And Glenn immediately said tothe guy, listen, I'll tell you
(22:03):
what, let's let's do a test.
Like Glenn figured out how tomake it like a no-brainer.
Give me some minimum money, I'mgonna make sure it's successful.
And Glenn talked about thevibrating pitchfork on Fridays.
He knew that his people cleanedout their horse stalls on
Fridays.
That was like the day they wereshoveling manure.
And while they're it was calledStable Scoop.
That the show is actually calledStable Scoop.
(22:24):
They scoop out the stables, andwhile they're talking, Glenn's
like, man, I just tried this newvibrating pitch uh pitch
pitchfork, whatever.
It's great.
My back feels great.
They couldn't keep this freakingthing, uh the inventor couldn't
keep it in stock.
People were buying it, and itbecame a long-term partnership
with this creator network.
I think they were together foryears, and this guy, his
(22:46):
invention found a market andfound a distribution channel
through the online things.
But there's a lot of things likethat, and B2B is very easy
because there's not a lot of B2Bcreators.
So if you could find the key B2Binfluencers in your space, you
could blow up very quicklybecause no one is savvy enough
to go call them.
So I want to be very I want toshare some tips, Matt.
That's very important.
(23:08):
You have to treat the creatorwith respect.
The problem is if you're workingat a big company, you think
you're, you know, uh, you know,we manage billions of dollars,
the creator could care less.
Let me be very clear.
What the creator cares about istheir content and their
audience, which is what you wantthem to care about.
The more respect and white gloveservice you could use, you could
(23:28):
give to that creator, the morethat relationship will uh have
really big benefits for you andyour business.
Uh, because if the creator shutsyou off and doesn't like you,
you're never doing business withthat creator.
And um, there's not like tons ofthem, there's only a few in
every industry.
So you want to be very good toall of them because they all
talk as well, they comparenotes.
(23:49):
So you don't want to get a badrap that you're uh hard to deal
with because then other creatorswill talk and it'll be very
difficult to uh to create thesepartnerships.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
So so I want to bring it back to something
that's um really uh disruptingthe SEO industry is uh LLMs or
Chat GBT, stuff like that.
And we talked a little bit aboutthe entity SEO and and how
important that that individualis and and as a trusted source.
(24:19):
Um when when you're just doingstuff, so Google used to be the
game, okay.
Chris, Google used to be the thethe biggest game in town.
50% of that traffic has now leftGoogle.
It's everywhere, it's just allover the place.
And so now it's a focus ontransactional content when
(24:39):
someone comes to your website,but it's not where people get
information for.
And these LLMs are goingeverywhere, and people's search
behaviors change, they'reeverywhere.
They're looking at well, howmany shares, how many likes, how
many follows your business has.
And there's tools and metricsout there that that show you.
And I see so many businesseszero, zero, zero, zero, zero,
(25:02):
zero, zero.
One of the best ways to to getsomebody to talk and and share
your stuff on social media is toget some influencers behind you.
Uh, one of my buddies who I'mgoing to bring on started
TurtleBox.
They he kind of had an opposite,like, I'm not running any ads,
I'm not doing any SEO.
And he started at the other endof the spectrum and he focused
(25:24):
on sponsorships and partnershipsand and influencers.
And the search volume for hisbrand, which is important, how
many people are searching foryour brand because it's about
your brand today, is like Ican't, I don't even want to
speak to the numbers, but it wasoff the charts.
Okay.
More than than than paid adscould drive you, like what he
(25:46):
could pay for.
And he built it all throughcreators and influencers.
He just got Ducks Unlimited toto sponsor them, right?
The official uh radio of DucksUnlimited and like all this kind
of stuff.
And he he leaned into thatcreator aspect of it.
I think that um digitalmarketing as a broad term and
(26:09):
and and SEO, like you need tobuild a uh uh a unified strategy
on multiple platforms withmultiple creators, with multiple
voices.
Because also you and I have hada number of conversations that,
you know, if we talk about um,you know, affiliate partnerships
or or something like that, youcan have a small audience over
(26:31):
here, you can have a giantaudience over here, and the
smaller audience is more engageduh than the bigger audience,
right?
Like Kim Kardashian could tweetyour stuff.
That doesn't mean they're gonnabuy it, right?
Like that doesn't mean peopleare gonna buy it anymore.
And so it's about these microcreators and trying out a couple
different creators, a coupledifferent combinations.
(26:53):
Um, and then there's even likethis name, image, and likeness
that's starting to happen uh inthe sports arena.
And so influencers and creatorsand and content, I don't feel
have got um the the airtime thatthey deserve uh and and the
share of the dollars.
(27:14):
But I I really think that'sstarting to change now, Chris,
because people are finding theirinformation on social media
before they even pick somethingup, you know, um, uh like a news
article.
They find it on social mediabefore.
And then there's like afact-checking kind of issue of
uh people talking about stuff toget clicks.
What what do you see?
(27:34):
If there's any of that that youwant to speak to, but like the
peripher proliferation of of AIand fake content, interested to
hear kind of your yourpredictions or or trends of what
you're seeing.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
I mean, I'm sure I'm sure you've seen some
predictions, but one thing weknow is more content is gonna
get created.
Like, let's just say, I don'tknow what the numbers are
exactly, but like let's say ahundred thousand pieces of
content get created every hour.
It's more, but let's just saythat's the number.
A year from now, it's gonna belike a billion.
Like, not I'm not exaggerating,it's gonna be like that kind of
(28:09):
exaggerated number because theAI could create a thousand
angles, uh, a million angles onthe same piece.
So then when I let's say there'ssome kind of press conference at
the White House, they're gonnagive a million takes.
So then each of us, if we wantto talk about getting led down a
rabbit hole, we're gonna seeexactly what we want.
Now, the leaders of thesecompanies have said that they're
(28:32):
gonna weigh the human uhcreators at a higher level than
the AI, because what happens isif the AI competes with us, it
wins every day of the weekbecause it can over-deliver
content at a rate we can't wejust can't create.
So um they're gonna weigh thethe the so what I would say to
(28:52):
anyone is either you'responsoring and working with
brand creators now or startingto, let's say you're a bigger
company, you gotta you like uhwhat's the the manscape?
Those guys were like geniuses.
They they were they started likefive, six years ago.
They came across my desk, and Iremember they had like a little
country bumpkin like out ofArkansas doing their marketing,
(29:14):
and the guy was a nice guy andeverything.
But like I could tell you, Iknow how they started because
the guy called me, he's like,Yeah, we're doing a hundred
thousand a month now, and it'salways great.
And I call it it was reallynice.
He would call the influencers,hey, we would like to, and then
they got so big, they're like,Listen, do you want to be the
CMO?
And he's like, I I want to stayin my little you know, town here
in the south.
(29:34):
I don't want to move to yourheadquarters, wherever.
But what they did then is theyautomated their influencer
program, and what they would dois they would call every
influencer, like they didn'tcare who you were, they were
just like, Hey Matt, we see thatyou have a UFC show.
We're gonna give you some freestuff and$25 gift cards.
Can you mention us?
And you'd be like, sure, no oneelse is giving me any money.
I just started, and they wouldjust they would ride each
(29:58):
creator, like I'm talking aboutin math.
It was amazing what they did.
So you you either need to startthat kind of program if you're a
big brand now, as small or asniche as you want to do, that's
fine.
But for the person, think aboutbeing a creator for their brand,
for their business, um, you gotto get started now because you
want to bring that audience intothe future.
(30:18):
And in the future, it's gonnaget exponentially hard because
there's gonna be so much noise,and the AI bots are gonna be so
human.
I mean, how many guys aregetting catfished now watching
AI pictures on Instagram ofwomen in bikinis that don't
exist?
So, like uh it's gonna getreally crazy.
If we think it's good now,forget about it, what it's gonna
be like a year from now.
(30:39):
So you got to just invest in inuh and and what does that mean
for the creators, the real ones?
Their value is gonna go up.
So, right now you're gonna getthem at a discount.
They're gonna be more valuablein the future because it's gonna
be harder to find great creatorswith audiences.
So the what whatever price youpay today is gonna be a steep
discount of what you're gonnapay tomorrow.
Because what you just said, theuh the image likeness.
(31:01):
We had a lawyer actually atVitvest talking about it.
He kept mentioning that acronym,and I'm like, why do you keep
mentioning it?
He's like, Well, I represent allthe college players now and they
could monetize.
And he goes, It's the number onething we have to do is manage
their image likeness andwhatever was ILM or something.
SPEAKER_03 (31:17):
Uh yeah, name image and likeness is basically, you
know, you uh when you get itcreate N I L, N I L, right?
That's what we're yeah, whenwhen you get it like when you
get somebody to make a clip,it's about repurposing that clip
using it in different ways.
Like it's not like I I see likeif something runs on the news,
like a company will take it andthen just rerun it on Facebook
(31:39):
to make sure everybody everybodysees it, right?
Um I I am curious, I lost mytrain of thought to be honest.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (31:48):
Tell me like this, and you were talking about what
brands could do.
AI is gonna exponentially makecontent that, you know, yeah,
tough to keep up with.
SPEAKER_03 (31:59):
Well, it I think a lot of these big brands are
losing their motes.
Okay, like a lot of these bigbrands that used to uh, you
know, utilize their logo, thenew the newer uh generation
that's buying, or even thepeople that are helping people
make decisions that aresearching the internet are are
finding these sources, not notjust on Google.
(32:20):
Um, and and they want to knowhow that brand's perceived.
They're doing a lot of research.
Um, and like you need you needan army of people out there
talking about who you are inyour space.
And I I think that you knowpeople have relied on PPC ads
(32:41):
for for far too long because ofthe metrics.
So like it is there we we wetouched on it a little bit, but
like if a if a company is comingin, like how long should they
wait like direct response for toknow if it's working?
And oh, my question actually wasaround live shopping.
(33:02):
Um I feel like live shopping isgonna be like so big because you
know, like it's real, like likewe're gonna have a a crisis of
is this real?
Is this information like I I didthis fat this fact checker,
originality.ai, I I justinterviewed the creator.
(33:24):
It's so much proliferation ofwritten content.
We're talking about videocontent, which has you know, it
it's it's behind it, but it'scoming.
Like we're not gonna know what'sreal based on personalization
and automation and and then howthey personalize it to each of
us.
And um, it's just gonna be very,very difficult to to figure out
(33:46):
what's going on.
So I feel like like if you'relive with the person on a call,
uh you'll you'll like it's realand you'll know that's there.
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
Matt to answer your two questions.
One is if you want to do a test,I would do a 90-day test with
the creator.
Six months would be the longestto see if there's some you know
legs in that test and trydifferent things.
But I would say start ugly,don't worry about perfection.
If you're a bigger brand, Iwould just have parameters of
what they cannot do with yourbrand.
(34:16):
Obviously, you want to protectyour brand, but you got to get
started and try differentthings.
As far as um, you mentioneddirect selling, there's uh was
it offer up or whatnot.
There's a bunch of these thingsnow that are much more powerful
than QBC because it's theinfluencers hawking, like
they're in a room like yours,like you're in, you have your
shelf behind you, and thenthey're just selling.
Like my buddy Gabe, the golfguy, because he does all this
(34:39):
golf equipment stuff, he hastons of stuff in this place.
So they they sp when theystarted, they sponsored him.
Dude, he was selling, he wasmoving stuff.
I never I went on there, thiswas like a year ago.
I called him up.
I'm like, dude, I'm blown away.
I I can't believe what I'mseeing.
And then he helped that audiencego into another room of another
golf guy, and that guy was like,Oh man, thanks so much for
(34:59):
helping me.
Because now you share audiencesand you so it's like it's like a
decentralized QVC.
It's insane.
And then for the females, we hadan influencer that she's on
Instagram, and women now, theway they're shopping is they
follow an influencer.
If they wear the dress from TJMaxx, they could click on the
dress and it literally directsends it once they put their
(35:21):
size in, it sends them the dressto their home based on an
influencer.
They saw shopping at Marshall'sTJ Maxx, you name it, Walmart.
And I was like, what the heck isthis?
And then I forgot the websitethat organizes all of this, but
it's uh it's all happening.
The largest brands that arebeing launched now are from
creators.
You know, you got Logan Paul'sgot his uh prime, yeah, you got
(35:42):
Mr.
Beast with Beastables.
Here's the thing that I uhanyone that follows marketing.
Mr.
Beast launched his chocolatecandy bars.
Did you ever have the first runof it, Matt?
Did you try it?
SPEAKER_03 (35:53):
I did, I did.
My kids, my kids wanted it, andI'm like, you think who could go
up against Hershey's?
And and Mr.
Beast is dominating.
SPEAKER_01 (36:03):
Well, here's the interesting thing, though.
The first run of his chocolatebars were terrible, they were
disgusting.
Um, they were bitter, yeah,because he tried to make them
healthy.
Like he's like, Oh, they'rehealthier and better than all
the other stuff.
So he literally had to relaunchhis chocolate brand.
Now they're really good.
They taste okay.
SPEAKER_03 (36:19):
I didn't try the the the healthy ones, I tried the
ones that tasted just likechocolate.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
Well, what I'm telling you is I don't know any
other billion-dollar productthat the consumer would be like,
I trust this person enough totry it again.
You know, I know how brutalcould like a consumer product
like chocolate on a shelf,competing with Mars, who's been
around for like a hundred years.
And he he had the goodwill thathe could say, Hey, we
reformulated it, try it again,and that the retailers would put
(36:45):
it out again, which wasincredible.
So um, I'm that's unheard of.
Like that doesn't happen.
Usually, if something fails,they don't give you another
shot.
Everybody knows if you'vewatched Shock Tank, everybody
knows how uh you know preciousthat retail space is in these
stores.
So we are in the age of thecreator, and if you're able to
get your brand aligned with theright creator, you take a ride
(37:07):
um for some massive growth andand you know, name brand
awareness.
It's it's ginormous.
SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
Okay, to to kind of getting close to to wrapping up,
I really a lot of people thatlisten um do marketing or uh or
work for B2B brands, that somesome B2C brands, I know I work
with a lot of B2B brands.
Um how should they frame this upto like get started?
(37:34):
Like we talked about, but likewhat does the program look like
if they need to start creatingcontent as a brand, right?
Like as a big company, like howdo they get themselves online
and people talking about them?
Like, should they seed it withcreators?
Should they exclusively partnerwith creators?
(37:55):
Should they start their ownpodcast, their own channel?
Should they get on a network?
Like, what is like the uhlandscape look like if you're a
B2B business to say, I know Ineed to be in this space, but I
don't know how to do it.
That's what I heard a lot oftimes with Instagram, TikTok,
whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (38:13):
Yeah, I'm a big proponent of starting ugly.
So one, you got to get thatnoise, and uh I know you
represent a big brand, and Iknow that you're very nervous
about your brand being out insocial media and out of your
full control, but um, you can'tyou can't get left uh behind
because it's gonna hurt yourbrand tremendously, especially
uh we're we're past the socialmedia age.
Now we're in the age of AI.
(38:34):
So if you're really thinkingabout like social media, that's
that's a problem.
So that's that's one.
So you got to get in the game.
The second thing is if you don'thave someone on your team that
could create really good, let'ssay, like a YouTube channel.
I'm gonna speak to thatspecifically, because with the
YouTube channel, you could takeshorts and you could feed them
all over from Instagram to toTikTok.
(38:54):
So YouTube would be your home.
If you don't have that person,you could make a great
relationship with a creator youlike their style, and you could
pay them to create your ownchannel.
They might be the face of yourchannel, they already have
branding.
So I'll give you an example inthe uh Las Vegas world, there's
a guy named Vegas Matt thatgambles with his son, they have
(39:15):
over a million subscribers.
Uh, was it FanDuel?
FanDuel has them doing their ownchannel, FanDuel channel, and
they gamble on FanDuel.
Um, but it's Vegas Matt and hisson.
So they know for a fact thatthat channel will get at least
100,000 subs.
So after they're done with theirmain channel, they go into like
a uh like a lobby room or hotelroom where they fan fan duel is
(39:38):
virtual and they have a wholevirtual gambling session.
So you just got to figure out ifyou could hire the the creator,
depending on how big yourbudgets are, you the bigger your
budgets are, the bigger thecreator you can get.
But if you have small budgets,find a small creator that you
like their content.
They have 10,000 subs, uh, subsmeaning subscribers or more, and
say, hey man, uh we'd like topay you whatever it is,$2,500 a
(40:02):
month,$5,000 a month, 10,000 amonth, whatever that budget is,
to create content for us.
And then you negotiate how manypieces, uh, what you know, have
them propose what they think thecontent should be.
Because a lot of those people,they know how to make
thumbnails, they know how tomake what we call catchy titles
to get clicks, and then you givethem access to make the best
videos they can promoting yourbrand.
That's where I would start.
(40:23):
Or you could, like what wetalked about earlier, sponsor
the challenge, just let themdrop in your name, uh, a mention
on one or two of the shows.
SPEAKER_03 (40:31):
And how long should you let it run before before you
measure like the brand lift thatyou're getting?
SPEAKER_01 (40:36):
Like I mean, I would do 90-day test that you like
working with the creator andthen extend it for six months.
And then at six months, youshould have some answers if the
needle is getting moved.
Um, two things.
My buddy Gabe, who promotes hehas the Let's Play Through golf
channel, he promotes PlayBetter, which is not his
company, it's a supply house.
(40:57):
There's a lot of people thatdon't use Gabe's affiliate code,
but they go outside theaffiliate code and buy from Play
Better.
Well, Play Better knows whenthey're answering the calls and
they're calling and they'relike, How'd you find this?
Oh, Gabe, Gabe, Gabe, Gabe.
Gabe's accounting for many, manytimes more than the sales that
we can't we could account forthrough the affiliate links.
So um, you need to pay attentionto who's calling you, how they
(41:21):
found out about you, and youneed to have your team attuned
to that because you might get a5x, but you're not realizing it,
and then you've caught off thattest and you're like, hey,
things dipped.
What happened?
It was that influencer drivingsales, you just didn't see it
because you didn't, it wasn'tnecessarily 100% track.
They would then search on theirown when they were at their desk
and they'd they'd find you afterthey're watching that show,
let's say.
SPEAKER_03 (41:41):
I think that that's a great point.
Okay, last question for you.
I wanted to get your opinion onthis because I think that a lot
of brands don't want to workwith creators because they're
they're stuck on their brandguidelines, how their logo
looks, what it says.
Uh uh on the on OGGN, you know,it's got to run through legal,
(42:03):
like if there's anything thatthat that there's any ambiguity
at all, we got to cut that partout.
There's like heavy editing.
And I feel like it kills theexperience.
So I feel like today, in the erawe're in, people are familiar
with the brand, and that brandlogo or or whatever it is can
come up organically homegrown ina lot of different ways.
(42:28):
And that's beneficial in my eyesto the brand.
And so I wanted to get youropinion on companies that are
very concerned on, like youtalked about at the beginning,
to bring it back full circle.
They need to be in control ofeverything that's happening.
I think those organicbreakthroughs are where the the
biggest opportunity is.
SPEAKER_01 (42:50):
So, Matt, I agree with you.
And here's what I'll say to you: if you're a CMO that's worried (42:51):
undefined
about your brand, hire someonelike Matt as a consultant to
help uh be the translator.
And I'll say, because I've seenthis firsthand.
My wife and another friend,they're big creators, they got
hired by an ad agency to do adsfor Chase Bank.
They literally had my wifecorrect the ad 10 different
(43:12):
times because the shade of bluewas off.
And I'm gonna tell you rightnow, they use the shade of blue
that the ad agency gave them.
So, what happens is it's noteven the brand, it's the ad
agency so afraid of losing chasethat they start knee-jerking
everything, and then thecreators worn out, and the
brand's like, how come it's notworking for us?
So sometimes the brands are sobig they don't even know this is
(43:32):
going on.
So if you're a CMO, I would dolike um like a little uh what do
they call that?
Like a little ragtag team totake care of the influencer
program yourself, keep an eye onit with the teammate or
consultant like you, Matt, thatkind of knows the space, and
allow the creators room tobreathe.
And you could fix things.
What you're looking for rightnow is signs of life that things
(43:55):
moving the needle.
And then you and I mentionedsomething before.
Um you need to pay attentionbecause when an influencer is
talking about you, you might belooking through click-through
rates.
But here's the problem you'renot um you're not counting the
branding you're getting, becausethey're talking many times to
millions of people or hundredsof thousands, and your brand is
(44:16):
getting free play in thosepeople's minds over and over and
over again.
Maybe they don't buy right away,but if you're if you know all of
a sudden you got like, you know,I don't know, small percentage
starts to buy, what about themillion or two million that now
are listening to your brand thatmight not be ready for your
product today, but six monthsfrom now?
So you also have to account thedouble, you're also getting a
(44:36):
double impact because these bigbrands pay for branding at all
kinds of stuff, they're throwingmoney out.
Um, but now with the influencer,you're not only getting direct
response, you're also gettingbranding that you're paying for
alongside that.
So you got to count a value tothat outside of the
click-through rate.
And if you're not doing, if youdon't evaluate it right, you
keep doing these starts andstops, not realizing why it's
(44:57):
not working.
It was working all along, butyou starting and stopping is
killing all your momentum everytime you do it.
No, I I love that.
SPEAKER_03 (45:04):
I love that in the back catalog, right?
It continues to play.
So you're you're getting thisaccrual over time.
So, Chris, we're uh about towrap up.
I wanted uh to have everybody uhknow what you're working on, how
to find you, how to follow youif they want to know more.
SPEAKER_01 (45:21):
Uh last tip, and then I'll do that because you're
the last tip.
You got my brain working.
You got my brain working.
SPEAKER_03 (45:26):
Well, I can tell you this podcast, I'm like so
intensely listening to you.
I forget what I'm gonna say nextmost of the time.
Because I was gonna ask you, isthere anything else we need to
talk about before?
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
You know, one of my hobbies is I I I have an aviary
and I breed birds, it's just ahobby of mine.
And I I was very fortunate tohelp some of the largest
influencers in that spacerecently.
And my brain was like thinking,like, these guys have such brand
credibility, and you might belike, Oh, yeah, that's funny,
birds.
Well, think about it.
What do people have to do withtheir birds?
They have to feed them.
(45:58):
You know, that's like abillion-dollar industry, you
know, the food, right?
SPEAKER_02 (46:01):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:02):
So if I was a brand in the food space, and there's
only like six of them, it's notlike you know, all these, all
these all these industries,everybody knows each other, and
the one CMO goes to the nextcompany the next day.
So everybody's very friendly.
And the the way it works, right?
If I was a food rep, I wouldcall this guy and say, Hey, we
love you.
We want to create a signatureline with your name on it.
(46:24):
Do you want to talk about beinglike a category killer?
The the influencer doesn't knowhow to do it, but you already
have distribution, you're takingbasically the same stuff with
the influencer's input, and youcreate a signature line that now
all of a sudden his fans thatmay might be casually watching
are buying.
So, like that there areopportunities to Mr.
Beast owns his chocolate, butthere's smaller Mr.
(46:46):
Beast that want to do that.
And you might be the one thathas the output that you could
partner with them.
But I would only do that afteryou have trust and credibility
of work with the person for ayear on other projects.
But imagine if you private labelwith a really big influencer
some of your stuff.
I mean, it's just such a bigopportunity.
For me, um, I'm I'm like thechairman in Meridius at Podfast.
(47:10):
We have a CEO named NickPablitis who's running the show.
I I'm the community manager.
You can find me atpodfastexpo.com or just spell
Chris Kremitsos.
I'm on all those socials.
Um, but I love what I do.
I love helping creators.
I'll be in, you know, I love theTexas tour.
It's one of my favorite thingsto do.
But um, what I would say toanyone thinking about this,
start, it's really tough to geta hold of brands.
(47:33):
So you might want to go to somecreator conferences, whether
it's Podfast or Vid Summit,that's a lot of the YouTubers,
go and meet them and see whatit's like, just as an
exploratory with your team, toget a feel for what it's like
dealing with creators and thenask, say, hey, I'm in this
industry.
Do you know anyone in thisindustry?
And if they refer you in, um, oryou talk to the agents, there's
a handful of agencies thatrepresent these people.
(47:55):
The challenge is once you go theagent route, obviously they got
to make their 10%.
And there's a uh there's agatekeeper.
Uh, it's a benefit and sometimesnot a benefit, but if you could
find the influencers that youlike, deal with them directly,
that's always a huge plus.
SPEAKER_03 (48:09):
I've sent one of our clients to Podfest and had an
absolutely great time and greatexperience.
Uh, so I definitely recommendit.
Uh, go check it out.
Chris, uh, you do Podfest um,like when is it usually in the
year so people can just January15th to 18th, 2026?
SPEAKER_01 (48:28):
It'll be our 12th uh Pod PodFest.
I'm gonna give you a shout-outbecause you helped us a while
back.
We needed some SEO help.
And you, I was very suspectbecause I have just like a lot
of us, we've been burned by alot of people, and you're the
real deal.
So I always appreciate thatabout you, Matt.
And I would say if anyone needslike uh someone to help in this
space, you're the go-to guy.
(48:49):
Because when it comes to the B2Bside, there's not a lot of
people understand thecomplexity, the red tape that
everybody has to jump through.
And I know that's somethingyou've spent quite a while
perfecting.
And I know you and I are int-shirts and stuff, but they
don't realize like we've beendoing business on the B2B side
for a very long time, but wealso have to relate to the
creators, so we're we're we'rebridging both gaps.
(49:11):
And it's it's interesting thatyou and I could talk shop, but
um this creator economy, you'reright.
People aren't using Google issweating.
Uh, people don't know, but allthe tech guys just went to the
White House and they said SergeiBrin is back to work because
he's paranoid that Google'sabout to lose everything.
And across the table from him isthe guy, Sam Altman from
(49:32):
ChatGPT, Zuckerberg with Meta.
That's not to be don't sleep onhim.
He's got glasses.
I got people doing filming firstperspective, you know, with the
meta glasses, and they'reincredible.
So, like the innovation that'shappening right now, I'm telling
you, next year is gonna be aevery the foundation's getting
laid this year.
Next year, it's gonna move sofast.
(49:54):
You're gonna be you just what Iwould say is just call Matt and
let Matt handle it because I'mhaving trouble keeping up with
it.
And I always used to pridemyself on like knowing what
everybody doesn't know yet.
And at this point, it's anyone'sgame.
It's crazy how fast it's moving.
SPEAKER_03 (50:07):
Well, I appreciate that.
Uh, we've been getting a lotmore advisory engagements um
where I'm coming in as afractional CMO on different
issues.
And does it support and to toyour point, there's a lot of
unification, like you havemultiple agencies or multiple
team members that that are notworking together.
And then if you're managing avariety of different brands,
(50:28):
it's kind of a mess.
So I've come in with somepublicly traded companies to
kind of fix their process topull it together, to build SOPs,
to workflows, to pull in some ofthe new technology because it is
moving so fast.
Um, so yeah, you can you cancheck me out at
matthsburchram.com, EWR DigitalCourse.
Uh, but yeah, we're having uhwe're we're hiring, we are
(50:49):
hiring, we are scaling.
Yeah.
And so yeah, uh reach out to usif if you have work or uh if
you're awesome at what you do.
Uh we're we're getting deep uhexperience and all these
different verticals.
If you want to grow yourbusiness with the largest, most
powerful tool on the planet, theinternet, uh call EWR for more
(51:10):
revenue in your business.
But we are incorporating Linvisibility and we are
incorporating Chat GBT and uhGrok, and we're building uh MPC
servers for clients, and AI isbuilt into the workflows.
Becoming an AI first business isreally where it's at.
Um, it is taking offexponentially.
You have to keep up with this.
(51:31):
Uh, it's no longer about ads andGoogle anymore.
Uh, that's why, and I hadbrought Kristen uh to advise, we
were trying to look at adifferent name because it's it's
spreading out.
And and we'll talk more aboutthat uh offline, but we are
launching a LM visibilitycertification.
LM visibility is really where Ithink it's going in the short
(51:52):
term.
I think AI discoverability iswhere it's going in the long
term, and that's you know, alldifferent components coming
together.
Um, thank you so much.
If guys uh you like what we'redoing, if you like uh uh people
I'm bringing on like Chris,please leave me a review.
Please uh share uh a littleclip.
We're starting to do clips onsocial media and YouTube.
(52:13):
Like I ask for your engagement.
I I want feedback.
Uh please ask for a review.
So thank you so much uh forsticking around to the till the
end.
My name is Matt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_03 (00:13):
Howdy, welcome back to another fun-filled episode of
the Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing, which we are going to
brand the best field podcast,which we've been running for 12
years.
There's an identity crisis thatI'm going through that Chris, we
can talk about.
Chris has also been involved.
This is Chris Crematos.
He's the founder of Podfest.
He's a longtime friend.
(00:33):
I can't believe I hadn't had himon before.
Uh, for those of you watching,I'm wearing a Podfest shirt.
Uh, he's also um, let me let mesay, you've won the Gaynus Book
of World Records for the mostnumber of podcasts in a certain
period of time.
What else, Chris?
You're doing all kinds of stuff.
I would love to just kind ofhear what you're doing.
(00:55):
But Chris, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
So, Matt, yeah, just a backstory.
Run Podfest, it's a very largecommunity of creators that got
started about 12 years ago.
And during COVID, we wentvirtual, and that's when we got
awarded the largest virtualevent for podcast attendees via
Guinness World Records.
And then we did it again thenext year and broke our record.
(01:18):
Uh, and then we retired itbecause it's just a lot of work
on the accounting side for uhGuinness World Records.
And in the process, Podfestexpanded.
We we just did one last year.
We went to Bogota, Colombia, andthen it was our second ever
Podfest Asia out of Manila.
So we've been going to Asia nowfor two years.
So I would consider myself anevangelist for creators,
(01:41):
specifically people thatconsider themselves podcasters.
And I started when podcastingwas majority of it was audio.
Now I would say the majority ofit is video and it's everywhere.
So um that's kind of my purview.
And I've seen a lot of casestudies because I see I've seen
thousands of people come acrossmy desk.
So when someone gives you theirexperience, they have it from
(02:03):
their perspective.
My perspective is literallythousands of creators.
So I see what is possible on somany different levels.
Um, when I from time to timewhen I do consulting, I have a
unique vantage point because Ikind of know certain things that
other people wouldn't thinkworks, or you know, vice versa.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
Well, you know, YouTube, Google even stated
YouTube is the shift that it'smaking towards that.
And I I recently just did apodcast with uh originality.ai's
founder uh about well, thecontent proliferation that's
happening with LLMs.
Um, I think the shift to videoand and YouTube is there there
(02:43):
are going to be those um and andthere is today uh influencers
that are all AI, butpredominantly the the the spam
of creation of content is is notin videos and is not in audio
podcast as of right now.
So also the LLMs from avisibility standpoint need a lot
(03:10):
of human interaction to train uhtheir data sets.
So the synthetic data uh doesn'tcome in.
So podcasting or long formcontent is incredibly important.
And and and like you, we startedthis 12 years ago when before
podcasting was cool.
It was actually like just like atraining to the team on how to
(03:31):
do it.
It wasn't really even publicfacing.
Um and it was just a great wayto uh catalogue what's going on
and and and one to many tocommunicate messaging.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Um yeah, all I could tell you is with AI, it's gonna
get dicey because I don't thinkpeople understand the amount of
content that AI could create onits own.
SPEAKER_03 (03:57):
So like well, the the LM notebooks are pretty
interesting, right?
You can drop an article, theytalk to each other, you know,
you you open up the parametersand voices on that.
It it's gonna be it's gonna bereal wild.
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Yeah.
So what I my advice to anyone isgrab your grab your audience now
and carry them into the future,because as we move forward, it's
gonna get very difficult, unlessthe algorithms weigh human
creators heavier than AIcreators.
But that's kind of the racewe're in at this point.
SPEAKER_03 (04:29):
So that leads into something that I've talked about
a little bit, but I'm dealingwith this issue.
If you, anybody watching, if yousee my name is Matthew, Matt in
parentheses, Bertram.
Okay.
Um, right now I've been creatingcontent for so long uh across
the internet.
Google and the knowledge graphviews me as two different people
(04:51):
because I've had differentroles, uh, different titles.
Um, there's also a couple otherMatthews out there.
I also couldn't get my name asmy handle.
So if you can go get your nameas your handle, go do that.
Go buy your domain.
I have MatthewBertram.com.
For sure, yeah.
Right.
I got MatthewBertram.com, but Ihave gone by Matt.
So uh real real issues.
(05:13):
Um, and then there's also somehighly influential people in
different uh industries onlineas well.
So it's getting all mixed up.
And so, you know, defining whoyou are as a real person, as an
entity on different channels,unifying that, um, taking the
content.
And one of the frameworks wetalk about, Chris, a lot of is a
(05:36):
framework.
I think it was 2004, a paperthat Google put out called the
7114 rule.
That that was not what thepaper's called, but basically
that's essentially like thesummary of it is create seven
hours of content.
They need to see your brand fourtimes or sorry, 11 times on four
different channels.
So 7114.
So seven hours of content, uh,see your brand logo, whatever,
(05:59):
11 times uh on four differentchannels.
And that framework um helpspeople understand who you are
and and build kind of that thatbrand lift or that brand
association.
And I've been telling businessesand evangelizing podcasting for
so long because it's the bestway to one-to-many marketing, as
(06:20):
well as um creating that sevenhours of content.
If they binge, listen to yourpodcast, look at your website,
talk to you, you're at anadvantage because you have more
content consumption by adecision maker than somebody
else that doesn't.
And through a podcast or a videopodcast, video first podcast,
you're gonna connect with peopleon a different level.
(06:41):
I mean, I know you get this allthe time, but but people that
hear you, right, they don't eventhey don't know you, but when
they meet you in person, it'slike they know you, and then
you're at a disadvantage becauseyou don't maybe know them,
right?
Like I have you had experienceslike that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
I have, and and I do have a piece of advice when
creating content.
Um, I always say think of youryour long form content in terms
of short form.
And what I mean by that is howmany clips, like when when
you're doing a long time ago, Imade a documentary for uh
podcasting called the Messengersof Podcast documentary, and we
got distribution, then I took itoff and I put it up on YouTube
(07:19):
for free.
But I remember when I'dinterview anyone, if anyone's
ever made a documentary, you'rethinking of how many sound bites
did I get out of that interview?
Because you need that to make amovie, uh, to make it all
bridge.
When you're doing a long forminterview, you need to think to
yourself, how many you know,five-minute clips did I get that
are clippable for people todigest?
Because the long form might notgo viral, but one of the clips
(07:42):
might get three million views,and then the long form you know
gets a hundred thousand viewsthanks to that uh you know, uh
funnel building from threemillion to that now.
They want to see the long form.
So just when you're creatingcontent, you got to think of it.
And the the person that does itthe best right now is Shannon
Sharp, uh Club Shayshae.
He, when he's interviewingsomeone, he has notes that his
(08:04):
team has uh prepared for him,and he's always asking questions
that they know that they couldmake a really badass thumbnail.
So, like if he's interviewing, Idon't know, a wrestler, he's
always gonna ask him, what wasit like working with Vince?
They already know that they havea thumbnail with Vince McMahon.
People are gonna click on that.
What was it like working withStephanie McMahon?
They just go down the line ofall the big names or whatever
they could find.
(08:24):
And his questions, so then hehas to do a dance and weave it
into an interview process, buthe's literally going for clips
in a three-hour uh show, hemight get 12-15 clips.
Those clips now are generatingtons of revenue and tons of uh
views because that's what peoplethe super fans will watch the
long form, but the casual fanswill watch the clips and might
(08:46):
watch the long form.
SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
Yeah, I I see the the clips being so important to
get people's interest to tobring them back.
What I see not happening verywell is people are putting out
clips on a clip uh channel, andthen they're not linking to the
full interview because a lot oftimes people watch the clip, or
at least I do, and I want towatch the full interview, and I
(09:08):
can't find it, right?
Then there's no identifying wayto know who that is.
Like there's a lot of kind oftechnical stuff, and then I
mean, what are your thoughtsaround that?
Have you seen that?
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
I mean, I would link it, but uh, you know, nowadays
with with everything changing soquick, I wonder if there's a
strategy why they don't link it.
But I personally link to thelong form because my objective
is to get as many hardcorefollowers that absorb my content
as I can if I were to advise acontent creator.
But there's so many differentmonetization strategies now.
(09:40):
You always want to ask why theperson is doing what they're
doing because maybe they'redoing something you haven't
thought of yet.
But um, I was just advising, Iwent to a show for uh
Aviculture, that's the peoplethat love birds, and I met two
influencers there.
And you know what I foundinteresting, um, Matt, they had
millions of views.
Um, the difference was one ofthem started on YouTube, the
(10:03):
other one started on everythingelse.
And even though the other onethat's on every other platform
with almost 100 million views,the guy on YouTube is making
almost as much with 100,000views.
So, like you have to really becareful of your platforms
because YouTube is a creatorplatform that pays.
Podcasting is also a creatorplatform that you get paid
through Spotify, span, differentnetworks.
(10:25):
You could be on you could be agiant on TikTok and Instagram
and barely make a couple grand amonth.
So it's like you really got toknow where the the levers of of
income come in so you could beprofitable and and keep making
great content.
If you're a full-time contentcreator, that is.
SPEAKER_03 (10:40):
Yeah, I and I I feel like YouTube is is the home
base, like that's that's thehome page of if if you're
creating content online.
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
YouTube is is it, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
And and everything should roll up into that.
How how do you view like um, youknow, I guess there's different
terms, but there's like snacks,but then there's like the
10-minute clips.
Like, I feel like those are likewhere do those fit in into the
in into the ecosystem?
I'm curious, like if maybe likethink in terms of also a
business.
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
Yeah, so if you're if you're doing a long form
interview, so for me, long form,half hour more, you know, an
hour, hour and a half.
You you need to figure out howmany short uh segments can you
get.
And that could be for me, ashort segment from a long form
would be five minutes, maybeeight minutes if it's going
really good.
Um, for the really short shorts,those are the minutes or less.
(11:34):
Um, they can help your longform, but you gotta just what's
weird about those is they couldbe so different and they could
still grow your audience.
I'll give you an example.
I talked to a guy that's afamous short sale trader, he he
short sales the market, and hewould do shorts that were
strategic and nothing happened.
(11:54):
So then he's like, screw it, I'mjust gonna eat steak.
So he'd go to his restaurant andeat steak, and he'd record his
steaks.
And then he was like, Well, letme just title it differently.
And he would title it short saletrader eat steak.
And what would happen wasstrategically that grew.
They're like, Oh, who is a shortsale?
And then it would intrigue themto watch the long form content.
(12:15):
So sometimes it's weird stufflike that on the short form that
now has a viral audience, andlike, I like this guy, let me
watch his advice on shortselling the market, um, which is
a financial term of you know,you're you're betting that the
market's going down or whatever,or or stock is going down.
But it doesn't matter what, andthen I thought that was a weird
uh thing, but then we had threeother creators give us unique
(12:35):
examples very similar to that.
They're like, hey, my short formis a little different, but I
make sure they know what I do,and then it'll tie back to the
mothership, which is what youjust talked about five-minute,
10-minute clips, or the longform.
SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
You know, I I put together a book called No Light
Trust.
And I you have a book, uh uhStart Start Messy, right?
Start ugly.
Start uh start ugly.
Uh great book.
I would encourage everybody togo get it if you're on the
fence.
Uh, it was it was really helpfulto say you gotta start and you
gotta get going.
And even if it's ugly, it'sgonna get better, but you gotta
(13:12):
start somewhere.
It's just like going to the gymor that's not gonna be perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
Yeah, but but no like trust is like what you're
talking about.
People gotta know who you are.
They gotta like have some kindof association or like you
before they care about what yousay, if anything.
So that kind of falls in line isyou know, hey, I like steak.
This guy likes steak.
I like like I one of my bestposts on Facebook.
I did this Facebook challengeposting every day.
(13:38):
Um, and I got about 20,000views, and I have like no
falling on on Facebookspecifically.
You know what?
One of the best pictures I didwas that got views was I was
making breakfast for uh like abunch of people that were
staying at our house thissummer, and it was just a
picture of plates of eggs.
(13:59):
Like I just was like I took apicture of all these plates of
eggs, and that picture I thinkdid better than anything else I
ever posted, right?
And so when people are postingpictures of food, everybody can
associate with that or like thatand uh build that build that
connection.
So that's that's what you'retrying to do.
Because if someone can listen toyour podcast, they get to know
(14:21):
you, but but if they don't knowyou, how do they get associated
with you?
There's got to be a uh interesttrigger.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Yeah, it'd be like it'd be like CMO obsesses over
his eggs or you know, marketinguh expert.
I I'm always thinking titles.
My wife is in the meditationspace, and she was talking to
some other channels, like abouttheir YouTube specifically.
So I'm talking about YouTubehere, and she goes, How are you
guys getting views?
And they go, you know what'sinteresting?
We did these shorts of behindthe scenes, like it wasn't even
(14:50):
a meditation of like creating achildren's um thing, and one of
them went viral, and thatliterally brought 10,000
subscribers to the channel.
Because if that thing bringsmillions, like, oh, I wonder
what that sounds like.
Oh, I like it, and then itdrives them in.
So, what I found with shortform, and and on her short form,
she creates mini snippets of themeditation, it works, but it
(15:10):
doesn't work great.
And like you said, sometimesmaybe it's a no-like and trust.
So, what I'm learning is yougotta experiment and find what
works for you because it'ssometimes the off-beat stuff,
like you said, it's a no-liketrust, then it builds to the the
the mother content, which iswhat it is the meditation
itself.
SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
Yeah, her her platform is is huge and has a
ton of people on it, um, doingdifferent kinds of meditations.
Yeah, she's just gotta grabpeople and bring people in.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
But but I yeah, like watching a clip of a meditation
doesn't have the same uh yeah,but having her on a microphone
with the children, here's mystory, here's what I do.
Yeah, but yeah, let me hearthat.
Let me hear that.
What is that?
Maybe she plays a sample, maybejust a second or two, and then
it's like, yeah, make sure toclick if you want to listen to
it.
It intrigues people.
(15:56):
You know what we did uhrecently?
We just launched a uh birthdayand celebration meditation
channel.
So literally, all it is is forpeople's birthdays, anniversary,
celebrations, meditations.
It's already doing really well.
SPEAKER_03 (16:07):
I love that, I love that.
I want to switch gears and lookat this from a company
standpoint, um, or um somebodythat wants to leverage these
creators.
Maybe they're, you know, abusiness owner or they're
in-house marketer, and they'relike, hey, we have budget for
experimental things, we want tosponsor some podcasts, or we
(16:30):
want to create like a shortseries or partner with the
influencer, but but they're notthe influencer themselves.
How have you seen uh thoseopportunities work to kind of uh
build the path a little bit morefor creators to find um revenue
outside of just the monetizationon the channels?
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
So here's my suggestion if you're if someone
that's listening to this is aCMO of a big brand, they got
budgets and they want to play inthis space.
The biggest problem is most ofthem play scared.
And the challenge is when youplay scared with creators, it
doesn't work well.
So you want to give you thecreators that you like in the
space, and you want to tell themthat you have money that you're
(17:15):
gonna invest with them as theirpartner.
But I would lean on them andhave them give you suggestions
of how they think they couldgrow your brand and work with
them and their vision.
All too often, what I've seen isbrands will dictate every little
thing down to the commas and theperiods.
The creators do their best, butit doesn't really blow up a
(17:36):
brand.
Um I I would definitely so theway you would do it is you find
if I'm a brand and I want tofind, I'll give you an example.
So the best way I could do isjust talk about a case study
that I actually know about.
Um my buddy Gabe Beluisi, Ihelped produce his show in the
early days.
I still help advise, but reallyhe does most of it now.
He's the largest golf in the US,anyways, golf review channel for
(17:58):
equipment.
There's bigger ones in the UK,but he's like the top American,
top two or three.
Golf Review.
There was a company called PlayBetter that sells their supply
house that sells golf equipment,and they their their claim to
fame is free shipping, right?
So when Gabe was still, I thinkhe had just hit 10,000 subs,
(18:18):
they said, Hey, we don't knowhow this works.
Can we create something and testit out?
And they were very honest towith the creator, and then they
gave Gabe a lot of latitude.
Well, all I could tell you isGabe has brought in millions and
dollars, one creator, millionsof dollars of sales into this
supply house where they wentfrom a half a dozen employees to
they're they're huge now,they're very big.
(18:40):
But it was that partnership thatworked well, and then they
figured out a way to um thatpartnership's going on three,
four years now.
So, like that long-termpartnership could literally move
seven, sometimes eight figuresjust with one small creator.
As they grow, you grow withthem.
Um, so I would recommend talkingto the brands, finding the
(19:01):
creators you like, andunderstanding it doesn't have to
be the biggest creator.
It could be a crew, I I likecreators on the rise because
their fan bases are excited togrow with them and they're
excited to try new things.
So um, and that is a termcreator on the rise within like
metrics and stuff.
Um, they do metric that peoplethat are really uh bouncing off
(19:22):
the the metrics.
SPEAKER_03 (19:24):
I I think it'd be good to speak to um a lot of
times, just uh when people aredipping into uh podcast
partnerships or advertising,they're just looking at CPMs.
Okay, they're just looking atCPMs, but like the the horse
network or the the equestriannetwork, like the like can you
share some of those stories?
(19:45):
Because if you have a reallyengaged audience, um, the and
the and the value of what you'reselling depending on the ticket
price, uh, you don't have tohave as many CPMs to to be
partner with that.
That's what we do at OGGN.
You know, it's very targetedtowards oil and gas.
And so it's not a pure CPM gamewhen people want to sponsor
(20:09):
shows in that arena.
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Yeah, so if you're a brand with budgets, I would not
you could do CPMs, that's fine,but if you could create like a
true partner, so what happenswith YouTubers?
I'll just share with you whathappens, and then I'll tell you
the horse radio uh example.
What happens with YouTubers isthey might have a video that has
50,000 and the next video has2,000.
The moment you tie them to aCPM, they're all stressed out
that they're not gonna meettheir goals.
(20:32):
If you could tie it to a monthlyprogram and say, hey, we want to
be your partner, let's just do a90-day test and you you give
them free range.
Say, we don't want let's roundup the numbers, you give them
the benefit of the doubt, andthen you as a brand do a test,
see how you like it.
If you like them, then figureout uh what they call minimum
guarantee, like, hey, we'regonna invest two grand a month
for the next year.
But we need you to mention us inyou know one video every three
(20:57):
times, but that that repetitionby that end of the year, you're
gonna see some movement with thegolf example.
What that supply house did wasthey said, listen, we're gonna
give you access to uh thesethese cool gadgets before they
go out so you could review them.
Just throw us a mention that wehave this equipment at our
supply house.
And it really exploded thenumbers for horse radio network.
We have a friend, you and I,named Glenn the Geek.
(21:20):
He started the horse radionetwork, and there was a guy
that created a vibrating uhpitchfork for horse manure, and
he went to Home Depot andthey're like, dude,$200 for a
shovel.
He was an inventor, so he didn'tknow.
He went to Home Depot, like,ain't no one buying a$200
vibrating shovel.
So then he went to Lowe's.
He's like, oh, Lowe's is higherend, they'll they're gonna love
(21:41):
this.
They're like, nah, we're notthis is way over our skew.
So then the guy almost gave up,but he's like, tractor supply,
that's I finally found my home.
And tractor supply is like, whatare you nuts?
200 bucks for a vibratingpitchfork?
Somehow, someone said to him,You gotta call Glenn before you
give up on your invention.
And Glenn immediately said tothe guy, listen, I'll tell you
(22:03):
what, let's let's do a test.
Like Glenn figured out how tomake it like a no-brainer.
Give me some minimum money, I'mgonna make sure it's successful.
And Glenn talked about thevibrating pitchfork on Fridays.
He knew that his people cleanedout their horse stalls on
Fridays.
That was like the day they wereshoveling manure.
And while they're it was calledStable Scoop.
That the show is actually calledStable Scoop.
(22:24):
They scoop out the stables, andwhile they're talking, Glenn's
like, man, I just tried this newvibrating pitch uh pitch
pitchfork, whatever.
It's great.
My back feels great.
They couldn't keep this freakingthing, uh the inventor couldn't
keep it in stock.
People were buying it, and itbecame a long-term partnership
with this creator network.
I think they were together foryears, and this guy, his
(22:46):
invention found a market andfound a distribution channel
through the online things.
But there's a lot of things likethat, and B2B is very easy
because there's not a lot of B2Bcreators.
So if you could find the key B2Binfluencers in your space, you
could blow up very quicklybecause no one is savvy enough
to go call them.
So I want to be very I want toshare some tips, Matt.
That's very important.
(23:08):
You have to treat the creatorwith respect.
The problem is if you're workingat a big company, you think
you're, you know, uh, you know,we manage billions of dollars,
the creator could care less.
Let me be very clear.
What the creator cares about istheir content and their
audience, which is what you wantthem to care about.
The more respect and white gloveservice you could use, you could
(23:28):
give to that creator, the morethat relationship will uh have
really big benefits for you andyour business.
Uh, because if the creator shutsyou off and doesn't like you,
you're never doing business withthat creator.
And um, there's not like tons ofthem, there's only a few in
every industry.
So you want to be very good toall of them because they all
talk as well, they comparenotes.
(23:49):
So you don't want to get a badrap that you're uh hard to deal
with because then other creatorswill talk and it'll be very
difficult to uh to create thesepartnerships.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
So so I want to bring it back to something
that's um really uh disruptingthe SEO industry is uh LLMs or
Chat GBT, stuff like that.
And we talked a little bit aboutthe entity SEO and and how
important that that individualis and and as a trusted source.
(24:19):
Um when when you're just doingstuff, so Google used to be the
game, okay.
Chris, Google used to be the thethe biggest game in town.
50% of that traffic has now leftGoogle.
It's everywhere, it's just allover the place.
And so now it's a focus ontransactional content when
(24:39):
someone comes to your website,but it's not where people get
information for.
And these LLMs are goingeverywhere, and people's search
behaviors change, they'reeverywhere.
They're looking at well, howmany shares, how many likes, how
many follows your business has.
And there's tools and metricsout there that that show you.
And I see so many businesseszero, zero, zero, zero, zero,
(25:02):
zero, zero.
One of the best ways to to getsomebody to talk and and share
your stuff on social media is toget some influencers behind you.
Uh, one of my buddies who I'mgoing to bring on started
TurtleBox.
They he kind of had an opposite,like, I'm not running any ads,
I'm not doing any SEO.
And he started at the other endof the spectrum and he focused
(25:24):
on sponsorships and partnershipsand and influencers.
And the search volume for hisbrand, which is important, how
many people are searching foryour brand because it's about
your brand today, is like Ican't, I don't even want to
speak to the numbers, but it wasoff the charts.
Okay.
More than than than paid adscould drive you, like what he
(25:46):
could pay for.
And he built it all throughcreators and influencers.
He just got Ducks Unlimited toto sponsor them, right?
The official uh radio of DucksUnlimited and like all this kind
of stuff.
And he he leaned into thatcreator aspect of it.
I think that um digitalmarketing as a broad term and
(26:09):
and and SEO, like you need tobuild a uh uh a unified strategy
on multiple platforms withmultiple creators, with multiple
voices.
Because also you and I have hada number of conversations that,
you know, if we talk about um,you know, affiliate partnerships
or or something like that, youcan have a small audience over
(26:31):
here, you can have a giantaudience over here, and the
smaller audience is more engageduh than the bigger audience,
right?
Like Kim Kardashian could tweetyour stuff.
That doesn't mean they're gonnabuy it, right?
Like that doesn't mean peopleare gonna buy it anymore.
And so it's about these microcreators and trying out a couple
different creators, a coupledifferent combinations.
(26:53):
Um, and then there's even likethis name, image, and likeness
that's starting to happen uh inthe sports arena.
And so influencers and creatorsand and content, I don't feel
have got um the the airtime thatthey deserve uh and and the
share of the dollars.
(27:14):
But I I really think that'sstarting to change now, Chris,
because people are finding theirinformation on social media
before they even pick somethingup, you know, um, uh like a news
article.
They find it on social mediabefore.
And then there's like afact-checking kind of issue of
uh people talking about stuff toget clicks.
What what do you see?
(27:34):
If there's any of that that youwant to speak to, but like the
peripher proliferation of of AIand fake content, interested to
hear kind of your yourpredictions or or trends of what
you're seeing.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
I mean, I'm sure I'm sure you've seen some
predictions, but one thing weknow is more content is gonna
get created.
Like, let's just say, I don'tknow what the numbers are
exactly, but like let's say ahundred thousand pieces of
content get created every hour.
It's more, but let's just saythat's the number.
A year from now, it's gonna belike a billion.
Like, not I'm not exaggerating,it's gonna be like that kind of
(28:09):
exaggerated number because theAI could create a thousand
angles, uh, a million angles onthe same piece.
So then when I let's say there'ssome kind of press conference at
the White House, they're gonnagive a million takes.
So then each of us, if we wantto talk about getting led down a
rabbit hole, we're gonna seeexactly what we want.
Now, the leaders of thesecompanies have said that they're
(28:32):
gonna weigh the human uhcreators at a higher level than
the AI, because what happens isif the AI competes with us, it
wins every day of the weekbecause it can over-deliver
content at a rate we can't wejust can't create.
So um they're gonna weigh thethe the so what I would say to
(28:52):
anyone is either you'responsoring and working with
brand creators now or startingto, let's say you're a bigger
company, you gotta you like uhwhat's the the manscape?
Those guys were like geniuses.
They they were they started likefive, six years ago.
They came across my desk, and Iremember they had like a little
country bumpkin like out ofArkansas doing their marketing,
(29:14):
and the guy was a nice guy andeverything.
But like I could tell you, Iknow how they started because
the guy called me, he's like,Yeah, we're doing a hundred
thousand a month now, and it'salways great.
And I call it it was reallynice.
He would call the influencers,hey, we would like to, and then
they got so big, they're like,Listen, do you want to be the
CMO?
And he's like, I I want to stayin my little you know, town here
in the south.
(29:34):
I don't want to move to yourheadquarters, wherever.
But what they did then is theyautomated their influencer
program, and what they would dois they would call every
influencer, like they didn'tcare who you were, they were
just like, Hey Matt, we see thatyou have a UFC show.
We're gonna give you some freestuff and$25 gift cards.
Can you mention us?
And you'd be like, sure, no oneelse is giving me any money.
I just started, and they wouldjust they would ride each
(29:58):
creator, like I'm talking aboutin math.
It was amazing what they did.
So you you either need to startthat kind of program if you're a
big brand now, as small or asniche as you want to do, that's
fine.
But for the person, think aboutbeing a creator for their brand,
for their business, um, you gotto get started now because you
want to bring that audience intothe future.
(30:18):
And in the future, it's gonnaget exponentially hard because
there's gonna be so much noise,and the AI bots are gonna be so
human.
I mean, how many guys aregetting catfished now watching
AI pictures on Instagram ofwomen in bikinis that don't
exist?
So, like uh it's gonna getreally crazy.
If we think it's good now,forget about it, what it's gonna
be like a year from now.
(30:39):
So you got to just invest in inuh and and what does that mean
for the creators, the real ones?
Their value is gonna go up.
So, right now you're gonna getthem at a discount.
They're gonna be more valuablein the future because it's gonna
be harder to find great creatorswith audiences.
So the what whatever price youpay today is gonna be a steep
discount of what you're gonnapay tomorrow.
Because what you just said, theuh the image likeness.
(31:01):
We had a lawyer actually atVitvest talking about it.
He kept mentioning that acronym,and I'm like, why do you keep
mentioning it?
He's like, Well, I represent allthe college players now and they
could monetize.
And he goes, It's the number onething we have to do is manage
their image likeness andwhatever was ILM or something.
SPEAKER_03 (31:17):
Uh yeah, name image and likeness is basically, you
know, you uh when you get itcreate N I L, N I L, right?
That's what we're yeah, whenwhen you get it like when you
get somebody to make a clip,it's about repurposing that clip
using it in different ways.
Like it's not like I I see likeif something runs on the news,
like a company will take it andthen just rerun it on Facebook
(31:39):
to make sure everybody everybodysees it, right?
Um I I am curious, I lost mytrain of thought to be honest.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (31:48):
Tell me like this, and you were talking about what
brands could do.
AI is gonna exponentially makecontent that, you know, yeah,
tough to keep up with.
SPEAKER_03 (31:59):
Well, it I think a lot of these big brands are
losing their motes.
Okay, like a lot of these bigbrands that used to uh, you
know, utilize their logo, thenew the newer uh generation
that's buying, or even thepeople that are helping people
make decisions that aresearching the internet are are
finding these sources, not notjust on Google.
(32:20):
Um, and and they want to knowhow that brand's perceived.
They're doing a lot of research.
Um, and like you need you needan army of people out there
talking about who you are inyour space.
And I I think that you knowpeople have relied on PPC ads
(32:41):
for for far too long because ofthe metrics.
So like it is there we we wetouched on it a little bit, but
like if a if a company is comingin, like how long should they
wait like direct response for toknow if it's working?
And oh, my question actually wasaround live shopping.
(33:02):
Um I feel like live shopping isgonna be like so big because you
know, like it's real, like likewe're gonna have a a crisis of
is this real?
Is this information like I I didthis fat this fact checker,
originality.ai, I I justinterviewed the creator.
(33:24):
It's so much proliferation ofwritten content.
We're talking about videocontent, which has you know, it
it's it's behind it, but it'scoming.
Like we're not gonna know what'sreal based on personalization
and automation and and then howthey personalize it to each of
us.
And um, it's just gonna be very,very difficult to to figure out
(33:46):
what's going on.
So I feel like like if you'relive with the person on a call,
uh you'll you'll like it's realand you'll know that's there.
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
Matt to answer your two questions.
One is if you want to do a test,I would do a 90-day test with
the creator.
Six months would be the longestto see if there's some you know
legs in that test and trydifferent things.
But I would say start ugly,don't worry about perfection.
If you're a bigger brand, Iwould just have parameters of
what they cannot do with yourbrand.
(34:16):
Obviously, you want to protectyour brand, but you got to get
started and try differentthings.
As far as um, you mentioneddirect selling, there's uh was
it offer up or whatnot.
There's a bunch of these thingsnow that are much more powerful
than QBC because it's theinfluencers hawking, like
they're in a room like yours,like you're in, you have your
shelf behind you, and thenthey're just selling.
Like my buddy Gabe, the golfguy, because he does all this
(34:39):
golf equipment stuff, he hastons of stuff in this place.
So they they sp when theystarted, they sponsored him.
Dude, he was selling, he wasmoving stuff.
I never I went on there, thiswas like a year ago.
I called him up.
I'm like, dude, I'm blown away.
I I can't believe what I'mseeing.
And then he helped that audiencego into another room of another
golf guy, and that guy was like,Oh man, thanks so much for
(34:59):
helping me.
Because now you share audiencesand you so it's like it's like a
decentralized QVC.
It's insane.
And then for the females, we hadan influencer that she's on
Instagram, and women now, theway they're shopping is they
follow an influencer.
If they wear the dress from TJMaxx, they could click on the
dress and it literally directsends it once they put their
(35:21):
size in, it sends them the dressto their home based on an
influencer.
They saw shopping at Marshall'sTJ Maxx, you name it, Walmart.
And I was like, what the heck isthis?
And then I forgot the websitethat organizes all of this, but
it's uh it's all happening.
The largest brands that arebeing launched now are from
creators.
You know, you got Logan Paul'sgot his uh prime, yeah, you got
(35:42):
Mr.
Beast with Beastables.
Here's the thing that I uhanyone that follows marketing.
Mr.
Beast launched his chocolatecandy bars.
Did you ever have the first runof it, Matt?
Did you try it?
SPEAKER_03 (35:53):
I did, I did.
My kids, my kids wanted it, andI'm like, you think who could go
up against Hershey's?
And and Mr.
Beast is dominating.
SPEAKER_01 (36:03):
Well, here's the interesting thing, though.
The first run of his chocolatebars were terrible, they were
disgusting.
Um, they were bitter, yeah,because he tried to make them
healthy.
Like he's like, Oh, they'rehealthier and better than all
the other stuff.
So he literally had to relaunchhis chocolate brand.
Now they're really good.
They taste okay.
SPEAKER_03 (36:19):
I didn't try the the the healthy ones, I tried the
ones that tasted just likechocolate.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
Well, what I'm telling you is I don't know any
other billion-dollar productthat the consumer would be like,
I trust this person enough totry it again.
You know, I know how brutalcould like a consumer product
like chocolate on a shelf,competing with Mars, who's been
around for like a hundred years.
And he he had the goodwill thathe could say, Hey, we
reformulated it, try it again,and that the retailers would put
(36:45):
it out again, which wasincredible.
So um, I'm that's unheard of.
Like that doesn't happen.
Usually, if something fails,they don't give you another
shot.
Everybody knows if you'vewatched Shock Tank, everybody
knows how uh you know preciousthat retail space is in these
stores.
So we are in the age of thecreator, and if you're able to
get your brand aligned with theright creator, you take a ride
(37:07):
um for some massive growth andand you know, name brand
awareness.
It's it's ginormous.
SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
Okay, to to kind of getting close to to wrapping up,
I really a lot of people thatlisten um do marketing or uh or
work for B2B brands, that somesome B2C brands, I know I work
with a lot of B2B brands.
Um how should they frame this upto like get started?
(37:34):
Like we talked about, but likewhat does the program look like
if they need to start creatingcontent as a brand, right?
Like as a big company, like howdo they get themselves online
and people talking about them?
Like, should they seed it withcreators?
Should they exclusively partnerwith creators?
(37:55):
Should they start their ownpodcast, their own channel?
Should they get on a network?
Like, what is like the uhlandscape look like if you're a
B2B business to say, I know Ineed to be in this space, but I
don't know how to do it.
That's what I heard a lot oftimes with Instagram, TikTok,
whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (38:13):
Yeah, I'm a big proponent of starting ugly.
So one, you got to get thatnoise, and uh I know you
represent a big brand, and Iknow that you're very nervous
about your brand being out insocial media and out of your
full control, but um, you can'tyou can't get left uh behind
because it's gonna hurt yourbrand tremendously, especially
uh we're we're past the socialmedia age.
Now we're in the age of AI.
(38:34):
So if you're really thinkingabout like social media, that's
that's a problem.
So that's that's one.
So you got to get in the game.
The second thing is if you don'thave someone on your team that
could create really good, let'ssay, like a YouTube channel.
I'm gonna speak to thatspecifically, because with the
YouTube channel, you could takeshorts and you could feed them
all over from Instagram to toTikTok.
(38:54):
So YouTube would be your home.
If you don't have that person,you could make a great
relationship with a creator youlike their style, and you could
pay them to create your ownchannel.
They might be the face of yourchannel, they already have
branding.
So I'll give you an example inthe uh Las Vegas world, there's
a guy named Vegas Matt thatgambles with his son, they have
(39:15):
over a million subscribers.
Uh, was it FanDuel?
FanDuel has them doing their ownchannel, FanDuel channel, and
they gamble on FanDuel.
Um, but it's Vegas Matt and hisson.
So they know for a fact thatthat channel will get at least
100,000 subs.
So after they're done with theirmain channel, they go into like
a uh like a lobby room or hotelroom where they fan fan duel is
(39:38):
virtual and they have a wholevirtual gambling session.
So you just got to figure out ifyou could hire the the creator,
depending on how big yourbudgets are, you the bigger your
budgets are, the bigger thecreator you can get.
But if you have small budgets,find a small creator that you
like their content.
They have 10,000 subs, uh, subsmeaning subscribers or more, and
say, hey man, uh we'd like topay you whatever it is,$2,500 a
(40:02):
month,$5,000 a month, 10,000 amonth, whatever that budget is,
to create content for us.
And then you negotiate how manypieces, uh, what you know, have
them propose what they think thecontent should be.
Because a lot of those people,they know how to make
thumbnails, they know how tomake what we call catchy titles
to get clicks, and then you givethem access to make the best
videos they can promoting yourbrand.
That's where I would start.
(40:23):
Or you could, like what wetalked about earlier, sponsor
the challenge, just let themdrop in your name, uh, a mention
on one or two of the shows.
SPEAKER_03 (40:31):
And how long should you let it run before before you
measure like the brand lift thatyou're getting?
SPEAKER_01 (40:36):
Like I mean, I would do 90-day test that you like
working with the creator andthen extend it for six months.
And then at six months, youshould have some answers if the
needle is getting moved.
Um, two things.
My buddy Gabe, who promotes hehas the Let's Play Through golf
channel, he promotes PlayBetter, which is not his
company, it's a supply house.
(40:57):
There's a lot of people thatdon't use Gabe's affiliate code,
but they go outside theaffiliate code and buy from Play
Better.
Well, Play Better knows whenthey're answering the calls and
they're calling and they'relike, How'd you find this?
Oh, Gabe, Gabe, Gabe, Gabe.
Gabe's accounting for many, manytimes more than the sales that
we can't we could account forthrough the affiliate links.
So um, you need to pay attentionto who's calling you, how they
(41:21):
found out about you, and youneed to have your team attuned
to that because you might get a5x, but you're not realizing it,
and then you've caught off thattest and you're like, hey,
things dipped.
What happened?
It was that influencer drivingsales, you just didn't see it
because you didn't, it wasn'tnecessarily 100% track.
They would then search on theirown when they were at their desk
and they'd they'd find you afterthey're watching that show,
let's say.
SPEAKER_03 (41:41):
I think that that's a great point.
Okay, last question for you.
I wanted to get your opinion onthis because I think that a lot
of brands don't want to workwith creators because they're
they're stuck on their brandguidelines, how their logo
looks, what it says.
Uh uh on the on OGGN, you know,it's got to run through legal,
(42:03):
like if there's anything thatthat that there's any ambiguity
at all, we got to cut that partout.
There's like heavy editing.
And I feel like it kills theexperience.
So I feel like today, in the erawe're in, people are familiar
with the brand, and that brandlogo or or whatever it is can
come up organically homegrown ina lot of different ways.
(42:28):
And that's beneficial in my eyesto the brand.
And so I wanted to get youropinion on companies that are
very concerned on, like youtalked about at the beginning,
to bring it back full circle.
They need to be in control ofeverything that's happening.
I think those organicbreakthroughs are where the the
biggest opportunity is.
SPEAKER_01 (42:50):
So, Matt, I agree with you.
And here's what I'll say to you: if you're a CMO that's worried (42:51):
undefined
about your brand, hire someonelike Matt as a consultant to
help uh be the translator.
And I'll say, because I've seenthis firsthand.
My wife and another friend,they're big creators, they got
hired by an ad agency to do adsfor Chase Bank.
They literally had my wifecorrect the ad 10 different
(43:12):
times because the shade of bluewas off.
And I'm gonna tell you rightnow, they use the shade of blue
that the ad agency gave them.
So, what happens is it's noteven the brand, it's the ad
agency so afraid of losing chasethat they start knee-jerking
everything, and then thecreators worn out, and the
brand's like, how come it's notworking for us?
So sometimes the brands are sobig they don't even know this is
(43:32):
going on.
So if you're a CMO, I would dolike um like a little uh what do
they call that?
Like a little ragtag team totake care of the influencer
program yourself, keep an eye onit with the teammate or
consultant like you, Matt, thatkind of knows the space, and
allow the creators room tobreathe.
And you could fix things.
What you're looking for rightnow is signs of life that things
(43:55):
moving the needle.
And then you and I mentionedsomething before.
Um you need to pay attentionbecause when an influencer is
talking about you, you might belooking through click-through
rates.
But here's the problem you'renot um you're not counting the
branding you're getting, becausethey're talking many times to
millions of people or hundredsof thousands, and your brand is
(44:16):
getting free play in thosepeople's minds over and over and
over again.
Maybe they don't buy right away,but if you're if you know all of
a sudden you got like, you know,I don't know, small percentage
starts to buy, what about themillion or two million that now
are listening to your brand thatmight not be ready for your
product today, but six monthsfrom now?
So you also have to account thedouble, you're also getting a
(44:36):
double impact because these bigbrands pay for branding at all
kinds of stuff, they're throwingmoney out.
Um, but now with the influencer,you're not only getting direct
response, you're also gettingbranding that you're paying for
alongside that.
So you got to count a value tothat outside of the
click-through rate.
And if you're not doing, if youdon't evaluate it right, you
keep doing these starts andstops, not realizing why it's
(44:57):
not working.
It was working all along, butyou starting and stopping is
killing all your momentum everytime you do it.
No, I I love that.
SPEAKER_03 (45:04):
I love that in the back catalog, right?
It continues to play.
So you're you're getting thisaccrual over time.
So, Chris, we're uh about towrap up.
I wanted uh to have everybody uhknow what you're working on, how
to find you, how to follow youif they want to know more.
SPEAKER_01 (45:21):
Uh last tip, and then I'll do that because you're
the last tip.
You got my brain working.
You got my brain working.
SPEAKER_03 (45:26):
Well, I can tell you this podcast, I'm like so
intensely listening to you.
I forget what I'm gonna say nextmost of the time.
Because I was gonna ask you, isthere anything else we need to
talk about before?
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
You know, one of my hobbies is I I I have an aviary
and I breed birds, it's just ahobby of mine.
And I I was very fortunate tohelp some of the largest
influencers in that spacerecently.
And my brain was like thinking,like, these guys have such brand
credibility, and you might belike, Oh, yeah, that's funny,
birds.
Well, think about it.
What do people have to do withtheir birds?
They have to feed them.
(45:58):
You know, that's like abillion-dollar industry, you
know, the food, right?
SPEAKER_02 (46:01):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:02):
So if I was a brand in the food space, and there's
only like six of them, it's notlike you know, all these, all
these all these industries,everybody knows each other, and
the one CMO goes to the nextcompany the next day.
So everybody's very friendly.
And the the way it works, right?
If I was a food rep, I wouldcall this guy and say, Hey, we
love you.
We want to create a signatureline with your name on it.
(46:24):
Do you want to talk about beinglike a category killer?
The the influencer doesn't knowhow to do it, but you already
have distribution, you're takingbasically the same stuff with
the influencer's input, and youcreate a signature line that now
all of a sudden his fans thatmay might be casually watching
are buying.
So, like that there areopportunities to Mr.
Beast owns his chocolate, butthere's smaller Mr.
(46:46):
Beast that want to do that.
And you might be the one thathas the output that you could
partner with them.
But I would only do that afteryou have trust and credibility
of work with the person for ayear on other projects.
But imagine if you private labelwith a really big influencer
some of your stuff.
I mean, it's just such a bigopportunity.
For me, um, I'm I'm like thechairman in Meridius at Podfast.
(47:10):
We have a CEO named NickPablitis who's running the show.
I I'm the community manager.
You can find me atpodfastexpo.com or just spell
Chris Kremitsos.
I'm on all those socials.
Um, but I love what I do.
I love helping creators.
I'll be in, you know, I love theTexas tour.
It's one of my favorite thingsto do.
But um, what I would say toanyone thinking about this,
start, it's really tough to geta hold of brands.
(47:33):
So you might want to go to somecreator conferences, whether
it's Podfast or Vid Summit,that's a lot of the YouTubers,
go and meet them and see whatit's like, just as an
exploratory with your team, toget a feel for what it's like
dealing with creators and thenask, say, hey, I'm in this
industry.
Do you know anyone in thisindustry?
And if they refer you in, um, oryou talk to the agents, there's
a handful of agencies thatrepresent these people.
(47:55):
The challenge is once you go theagent route, obviously they got
to make their 10%.
And there's a uh there's agatekeeper.
Uh, it's a benefit and sometimesnot a benefit, but if you could
find the influencers that youlike, deal with them directly,
that's always a huge plus.
SPEAKER_03 (48:09):
I've sent one of our clients to Podfest and had an
absolutely great time and greatexperience.
Uh, so I definitely recommendit.
Uh, go check it out.
Chris, uh, you do Podfest um,like when is it usually in the
year so people can just January15th to 18th, 2026?
SPEAKER_01 (48:28):
It'll be our 12th uh Pod PodFest.
I'm gonna give you a shout-outbecause you helped us a while
back.
We needed some SEO help.
And you, I was very suspectbecause I have just like a lot
of us, we've been burned by alot of people, and you're the
real deal.
So I always appreciate thatabout you, Matt.
And I would say if anyone needslike uh someone to help in this
space, you're the go-to guy.
(48:49):
Because when it comes to the B2Bside, there's not a lot of
people understand thecomplexity, the red tape that
everybody has to jump through.
And I know that's somethingyou've spent quite a while
perfecting.
And I know you and I are int-shirts and stuff, but they
don't realize like we've beendoing business on the B2B side
for a very long time, but wealso have to relate to the
creators, so we're we're we'rebridging both gaps.
(49:11):
And it's it's interesting thatyou and I could talk shop, but
um this creator economy, you'reright.
People aren't using Google issweating.
Uh, people don't know, but allthe tech guys just went to the
White House and they said SergeiBrin is back to work because
he's paranoid that Google'sabout to lose everything.
And across the table from him isthe guy, Sam Altman from
(49:32):
ChatGPT, Zuckerberg with Meta.
That's not to be don't sleep onhim.
He's got glasses.
I got people doing filming firstperspective, you know, with the
meta glasses, and they'reincredible.
So, like the innovation that'shappening right now, I'm telling
you, next year is gonna be aevery the foundation's getting
laid this year.
Next year, it's gonna move sofast.
(49:54):
You're gonna be you just what Iwould say is just call Matt and
let Matt handle it because I'mhaving trouble keeping up with
it.
And I always used to pridemyself on like knowing what
everybody doesn't know yet.
And at this point, it's anyone'sgame.
It's crazy how fast it's moving.
SPEAKER_03 (50:07):
Well, I appreciate that.
Uh, we've been getting a lotmore advisory engagements um
where I'm coming in as afractional CMO on different
issues.
And does it support and to toyour point, there's a lot of
unification, like you havemultiple agencies or multiple
team members that that are notworking together.
And then if you're managing avariety of different brands,
(50:28):
it's kind of a mess.
So I've come in with somepublicly traded companies to
kind of fix their process topull it together, to build SOPs,
to workflows, to pull in some ofthe new technology because it is
moving so fast.
Um, so yeah, you can you cancheck me out at
matthsburchram.com, EWR DigitalCourse.
Uh, but yeah, we're having uhwe're we're hiring, we are
(50:49):
hiring, we are scaling.
Yeah.
And so yeah, uh reach out to usif if you have work or uh if
you're awesome at what you do.
Uh we're we're getting deep uhexperience and all these
different verticals.
If you want to grow yourbusiness with the largest, most
powerful tool on the planet, theinternet, uh call EWR for more
(51:10):
revenue in your business.
But we are incorporating Linvisibility and we are
incorporating Chat GBT and uhGrok, and we're building uh MPC
servers for clients, and AI isbuilt into the workflows.
Becoming an AI first business isreally where it's at.
Um, it is taking offexponentially.
You have to keep up with this.
(51:31):
Uh, it's no longer about ads andGoogle anymore.
Uh, that's why, and I hadbrought Kristen uh to advise, we
were trying to look at adifferent name because it's it's
spreading out.
And and we'll talk more aboutthat uh offline, but we are
launching a LM visibilitycertification.
LM visibility is really where Ithink it's going in the short
(51:52):
term.
I think AI discoverability iswhere it's going in the long
term, and that's you know, alldifferent components coming
together.
Um, thank you so much.
If guys uh you like what we'redoing, if you like uh uh people
I'm bringing on like Chris,please leave me a review.
Please uh share uh a littleclip.
We're starting to do clips onsocial media and YouTube.
(52:13):
Like I ask for your engagement.
I I want feedback.
Uh please ask for a review.
So thank you so much uh forsticking around to the till the
end.
My name is Matt Bertram.
Bye bye for now.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com