November 17, 2025 • 49 mins
We reframe SEO for an AI-first world and show how agentic workflows turn messy sales processes into predictable follow-through. Matthew Bertram and Stephen Werley discuss how to map the stack, from transcripts and enrichment to Slack-driven next actions that recover hidden revenue.
• rebrand to Best SEO Podcast and new AI-derived book
• why LLMs matter for analysis, decks, and feedback
• custom GPTs tuned with domain knowledge
• building automations in n8n, Make, ClickUp, and HighLevel
• human in the loop as the quality guardrail
• data enrichment with RB2B and Clay for true personalization
• marketing, RevOps, and agent orchestration converge
• LLM visibility certification and next steps
Guest Contact Information:
Website: stevenwerley.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stevenwerley
Instagram: instagram.com/stevewerley
Facebook: facebook.com/steven.werley
More from EWR and Matthew:
Leave us a review wherever you listen: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or Amazon Podcast
Free SEO Consultation: www.ewrdigital.com/discovery-call
With over 5 million downloads, The Best SEO Podcast has been the go-to show for digital marketers, business owners, and entrepreneurs wanting real-world strategies to grow online.
Now, host Matthew Bertram — creator of LLM Visibility™ and the LLM Visibility Stack™, and Lead Strategist at EWR Digital — takes the conversation beyond traditional SEO into the AI era of discoverability.
Each week, Matthew dives into the tactics, frameworks, and insights that matter most in a world where search engines, large language models, and answer engines are reshaping how people find, trust, and choose businesses. From SEO and AI-driven marketing to executive-level growth strategy, you’ll hear expert interviews, deep-dive discussions, and actionable strategies to help you stay ahead of the curve.
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Website: www.matthewbertram.com
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LinkedIn: @mattbertramlive
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your inside a guide to thestrategy top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Howdy, welcome back to another fun-filled episode of
the Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am going to be changing thename.
I was going through an identitycrisis.
There's a lot of like entity SEOstuff that uh is happening that
we're dealing with the best SEOpodcast is all our handles.
We've been that for uh 12 years,maybe 13, going on 13 years.
(00:34):
And so I'm gonna drop theunknown secrets.
Um, you know, maybe we we didcome out with a book.
Okay, so we took all the oldpodcasts, like 700 podcasts, we
ran it through AI, uh, and wefound a storyline and we put
together a book.
It is up on Amazon.
I would ask you, please goreview it.
(00:54):
Um, uh buy it, get uh uh if Idon't have a Kendall version,
just wait.
I'll put up a Kendall version,like a dollar.
Um, you know, I think it's greatcontent.
Uh the foundations of SEOhaven't changed, but how people
search the web has changed.
And that leads me to uh myguest, who I actually just had
(01:16):
on my oil and gas sales andmarketing podcast.
He did some cold outreach, uh,you know, convinced my uh my
co-host on that podcast to bringus on.
And then my co-host bailed on meand uh Steven and I were just
jamming about AI workflows,outreach, um uh analysis, prep,
(01:38):
all the things you can do withAI.
I know if you're listening tothis podcast, uh AI has been
very disruptive uh in marketing.
That was probably marketing andsales, is one of the first areas
that it uh, you know, impacted.
So we're we're ahead of thecurve in that area.
And uh Steve's doing something,Stephen Worley.
Welcome to the show, Steven.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
Hey, thanks.
Yeah, no, excited to run thisback, so keep it rolling.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:02):
Yeah.
So um, you know, you're likeautomations are like one layer,
right?
And then agentic workflows arethe second layer on top of that.
And a lot of people that arelistening are probably using it
for content creation.
They're building it to enhancewhat they're doing.
(02:22):
We're starting to use it a lotin data analysis, um, you know,
building sales presentations.
We talked a little bit about.
Um, you gave me some tips on.
And um cold outreach is now avery big thing, you know, uh
customer service bots, but we'renot talking about just if-then
(02:44):
statements.
We're talking about actual umtrained LLMs that are tuned for
your business, that uh canreference documents, can give
information.
It's really amazing what'shappening.
And this is the next layer isplugging in what you're doing
manually or what you're havingyour team do, or VAs uh to use
(03:08):
these workflows, to use theseLMs and agentic workflows to
drive your business forward.
And so I would love for you tokind of just set the table on
you were a sales trainer beforethis, yeah, what what you were
seeing, what was happening, andwhy you decided to take the the
(03:29):
jump to to start building out uha lot of automation and mainly
and an N8N.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
So yeah, absolutely.
So one thing when when you'remanaging a a lot of people,
especially in a sales team,everyone is taking sales calls
every day.
So those should be to someextent reviewed and provided
feedback on.
So you can see and imaginewhether you're in sales or not
(03:59):
as your primary, that that's a ahuge responsibility from a time
standpoint uh and a personnelstandpoint that creates a really
big barrier to scalability.
So that was the problem that Ifaced, and that's what forced me
to start diving into AI more.
Luckily, I have a little bit ofa tech background, so it's
(04:21):
pretty easy for me to start topick up, but um I I paid
somebody to help me learn it alittle bit.
Um, somebody who actually, I wasin their mastermind for a while,
so I had a lot of a good trustwith them and I knew they were
doing a lot.
Uh, and I was able to learn howto use AI effectively,
specifically generative AI,going into the LLMs and
(04:44):
communicating with them,building custom GPTs and things
of that nature.
I think that step is reallyimportant to anyone that is
looking to do something, becauseyou can you might have the the
mind of you know an engineer andyou know, visionary and be able
to architect these grand plans,but if you don't know how to get
(05:08):
the res the results and theoutput that you want from the
LLM, it really doesn't matter.
And that right there, I think,is the biggest gap that I've
seen in terms of a lot of thethe SaaSes that have come out in
terms of AI, because they're toogeneric, they're not dialed in
specifically to a specific, youknow, company process.
(05:31):
And you know, the the one waythat I like to explain is that
when when I'm working withsomeone, uh they have the domain
knowledge, right?
I might have some AI knowledge,I might have some sales
knowledge, but they havespecific domain knowledge that
makes them unique in who theyare.
And if you don't use that inyour AI process, you're losing,
(05:53):
right?
Then you're just generic, thenyou're like everyone else.
So that's the biggest thing andand the the pathway.
So first I learned thegenerative AI train, I
understood how to do that reallywell, and then my automation
instincts kicked in, and I waslike, well, I bet I could
probably make this smoother,right?
So when I take what I did in thecustom GPT, put it into an open
(06:16):
AI assistant, and now have it doit via API so that way when uh
you know a deal moves from thisstage to that stage, it
automatically is grabbing stuffor transcript processes from
read.ai, it grabs it from awebhook, sends it to AI, it
provides feedback, drops intoGoogle Doc, provides some
(06:38):
follow-up messages, things likethat.
And now all of a sudden we'reagentic, right?
So that's that's the big idea.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Awesome.
So I'm gonna break some of thisdown uh just a little bit more.
Uh, and it also falls in linewith my uh my journey um is
started using uh LLMs a lot,right?
Because cleaning data andlabeling data was not super fun,
took a long time to do anythingwith um big plots of data and
(07:08):
and data marks, warehouses,lakes, whatever you want to call
it.
And um, you know, so we wereusing it uh a lot, like with
like an ERP system to enhance uhproduct descriptions or stuff
like that, but really using itday to day until LLMs came out,
(07:29):
um that that's what reallychanged the game.
And after I started using it alot, and I know a lot of people
that are listening are startingto use it more and more and
more.
And a lot of the conversationthat um we're working on is how
to get visibility and chat GBTuh and perplexity and and some
of the other LMs.
(07:49):
Like, so how do they sortthrough how do those agents uh
comb through the information?
Because Google was like alibrarian.
You go to Google and say, hey, Iwant to get this knowledge and
be like, okay, go here, go here,go here.
Now it actually goes and gets itfor you, right?
Um also people are starting touse it for more and more stuff
(08:10):
as uh as the adoption curvecomes in, and they're starting
to ask it more unstructuredquestions.
So prompt engineering is whereeveryone should start.
I actually took a bunch ofdifferent certifications.
Really, it was just learning forme from different people how
they were approaching it, howthey were building prompts.
I know there's a lot of peopleout there, and I used to like
(08:32):
take screenshots of like allthese different prompts that
people were using.
And once you understood how thecake's made, then now you can
start to get the outputs and uhtune that to what you're trying
to do.
And then a custom GPT, I have abunch of those built.
I built some really fun ones,but it was just taking the LLM
(08:52):
and then training uh it onspecific data that I would like
to see, and then capturing thatin the instructions so I would
get that recall.
So people that are using theChatGPT get to a certain place,
it knows certain things.
And then if you keep talking toit or you start a new thread,
and now with five uh ChatGPTfive, I was using a lot of Chat
(09:15):
GPT four, it doesn't remembereverything crystal clear
anymore, which I don't like.
Um, I think that was due to likesafety potentially of some of
the stuff that's happening.
Like it can still, you know, pinit and recall it, but like
understanding how thetransformers, how how the
information is processed, how toask the prompts, it's
foundational because guess what?
(09:36):
Everything else is built on topof that.
And then what you start talkingabout is okay, so you you have
the prompt engineering, you havethe custom GPT.
And if people are up to speedand workflows or if y'all are
using GoHi level or whatever itis, right?
You're you're if you're notstrong in automations, a lot of
stuff can be solved throughautomations.
(09:59):
Now, what we're talking about istaking that maybe custom GPT
that's tuned to get the outputthat you're looking for, um, and
and build it into your workflow,your automation workflow.
And as those two come together,it becomes really, really
powerful because it can answerthings, it can think, it can uh
do different things thatpotentially a level one customer
(10:21):
service or salesperson, outreachperson can do.
And so now if you start to, youknow, use APIs and bolt some of
this stuff together, now it'sabout domain knowledge and
that's foundational knowledge,and then bringing someone like
you and Steven to help uh, youknow, smooth it out or or build
(10:43):
it for them or something likethat.
I would love to kind of talkabout some of the things you
built, maybe case studies of uhwe talked last time, you said
you were building some greatprompts, and then you know, you
thought they were amazing, andthen the sales team was like,
Oh, I'm not sure uh how I how toincorporate this.
I would love to hear some ofthose things that you built or
(11:04):
um some of the things you'reyou're building for clients.
I'd love to start there.
SPEAKER_02 (11:09):
Yeah, like the the journey of like kind of where it
started and where it's it'sheaded.
Um yeah, yeah, yeah, where it'sat.
Absolutely.
So I'm a big uh click up poweruser.
Um, and we also use high levelquite a bit inside of the the
sales work.
So a high level actually getssuper noisy, I found.
(11:31):
So my initial idea was with withthe sales teams when I was
managing the sales agency waswell, why don't we just use uh
go high level as a communicationplatform?
Just send text messages and umemails and stuff like that.
And we'll use go high level asthe the CRM pipeline aspect,
(11:53):
like the pipeline managementbecause it's more more granular,
able to build better dashboardsand click up, and I found it
just easier to createconnections.
And you can say that, like, hey,you can tie into go high level,
and you absolutely can, don'tget me wrong.
It's just that if I had peoplecoming in and managing one
(12:14):
board, I thought that was good.
That was the first iteration.
I couldn't get people to go intoclick up and do that because
they were very confused, and nowit's like adding another tool.
So the next iteration of thatwas custom dashboards within
clickup.
Now, this actually got a lot ofgood traction.
So each sales rep had a a customdashboard.
(12:34):
And um, for anyone that that'smanaged sales reps, they
actually a lot of times I I findthat especially the top guys,
they'll take all their leads andthrow them in a Google Sheet,
and there'll be like a list, andthey'll just say like what I did
last, basically, and just keepadding more like rows.
So it's nice because ClickUp hasthis list feature, right?
(12:56):
So in the dashboards, it wouldjust list out like, hey, these
are today's calls that need tobe categorized, and then like
then it would have a separatepipeline section with a list of
all their leads of peoplethey've already talked to.
And and uh to be categorized,they had to do things like, and
this isn't AI yet, right?
But but to be categorized, theyhad to do things like input
projected deal size, um, move itto the right stage, uh lead
(13:20):
score state, things like that,right?
And maybe put in a call URL,right?
Okay, we're getting somewhere.
Now it's like, well, this isstill this is still a lot for a
salesperson to do admin-wise atthe end of the day.
So now it's like, okay, and andI I touched on this earlier, but
(13:40):
it's like, okay, what if we had,you know, uh the the call
recording transcription come infrom a webhook, which it does.
So it can come in through awebhook, and you can use n8n for
some of this, you can usemake.com for some of this, you
can use Zapier for some of this.
Yes.
And the the differences I'llI'll talk about, but for the
(14:02):
more simplistic automations, Iuse make, and then the more
complex automations I use N8N.
And I'll talk about that alittle bit later.
But you know, basically webhookcomes in into make, and then we
can send that to the custom openAI assistant to review the call.
That's something you knowspecifically built for that
offer, and then drop feedbackand notes within that clickup
(14:24):
deal.
And then we can also have itcontinue to then we can have now
ClickUp um has integrated theirown AI agents, which are uh
pretty rudimentary, but stillvery helpful.
So if you can prompt them right,you can uh get it to
automatically update deal sizeand deal details, update custom
(14:44):
fields and things like that.
It's not going to be able to uhdo super complex stuff like you
can in N8N, but it's still veryhelpful within the platform.
And the fact that Clikup hasthat AI ingrained within its own
platform, I found to beextremely um, extremely helpful
in terms of just being able tocreate some end-to-day stuff or
(15:05):
figure out what happenedthroughout the day and things of
that nature.
Now, ClickUp has their own uhmeeting recorder too, so that
can integrate directly in aswell.
So, anyways, now we'reautomatically updating things
within the deal and can helpmove things along for the sales
folks and maybe have them justconfirm it.
So we talked about this lasttime, but human in the loop for
anyone listening is superimportant.
(15:26):
Um, from at least myperspective, I believe Matt
Matt's perspective as well.
We when AI does something, weexpect it to get it 60 to 80
percent of the way there.
And we want a human to reallymake sure that things are going
well.
So we're not looking atreplacing, we're looking at
enabling, um, is is the termthat I like to use, AI
enablement.
Uh, and then you know, that thatwas like where it was at for a
(15:51):
while, right?
And still, there's still a techaversion from the salespeople,
right?
There's still this tech aversionfrom the salespeople.
And it's like, now, don't get mewrong, you got to to some extent
lay down the law and say, like,no, this is the process and this
is how you do it.
And I believe that if if youhave a good team, you can
(16:13):
demand, you know, that and andget that out of folks.
However, there's also a layerwhere it's like, well, what's
best for the actual salesprocess, right?
SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
So let me ask you this.
So we we use clickup too, um,and we use go high level, and we
are working through thatintegration.
Um, so this is a very similarjourney.
Um, we implemented Google Sheetforms or actually click-up
forms, like there's clickupforms, and we were having
(16:46):
salespeople, account managersfill out these forms to populate
the certain fields.
I used to do that.
And we found that to be a goodmedium step because you know,
maybe people don't want to golike clickup's noisy too, if it
or it's overwhelming if youdon't set up the custom
dashboard and you know, yeah,you're getting alerted all the
(17:09):
time.
Um, if you have a step processthat they follow, and and we
started using those clickupforms, and we are at least
getting the information,especially even like when you're
setting up projects, if it's nota template, like to fill out all
the information that you need.
Um, and then people can checkthe box.
Okay, I know I need to do thisevery time XYZ happens.
(17:30):
Uh, we found that to be useful.
Um uh, but it's you know, ofcourse, like you can make it
better, you can make itsmoother.
Right.
So, so so pick up where you leftoff in your in your story.
SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Yeah, so so I just to touch on that too.
I used to do that a little bit.
I had SDRs do more of theinputting of the deal, and then
I I had the deals automaticallypopulate in.
And I do find that SDRs, foranyone listening, are more um
apt to following SOPs and doingthings in a certain way than
than a closer is because theirtimes uh like you want them on,
(18:06):
right?
You want them on and dialing anddoing things, but their times a
little bit more flexible becausethey don't wake up to a bunch of
scheduled calls usually um asmuch as a a closer doesn't in
the sales process scenario.
Um sometimes they have somethings on there that they you
know have have scheduled, butusually usually a closure's
calendar is much more tight.
Um, I I find.
(18:27):
So yeah, back on uh where wewere at.
So I I do find that thedashboards have worked better
than the the forms overall.
But anyways, that that brings usto to where we're at, and it's
you know, what's best for thesales process, right?
What what's best to actually getthe most revenue out of this?
(18:49):
Um I think we talked about thison your show, but I did some
research with AI pretty recentlyabout how much money we lose
from prospects that we're notproperly following up with.
Now, this isn't a specific datapoint from MIT and Stanford, but
through AI's analysis of thearticle, this is about what it
(19:10):
works out to.
All right.
So so don't like quote me on it,FTC.
Um, this is a huge FTC just youknow warning disclosure, like
not necessarily perfect numbers,but for about every 100K you
close, uh you you lose 150K inin revenue.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
Wow, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
So so over over double what you're closing, you
could potentially be gettingbecause we're missing stuff.
So that's a light bulb, right?
That's that's one of thosethings that's almost every sales
organization is facing as aproblem.
And that's a massive problembecause almost almost all of
that is gonna affect bottom linepretty easily because they're
(19:51):
already acquired prospects.
You paid for them, they'rethey're part of everything
that's already worked into themath for the most part.
Maybe a little bit of usage inemails or text messages or or uh
affecting someone's timeslightly, but outside of that,
um the this is mostly accountedfor in terms of the top line,
(20:12):
right?
So when we think about that, nowit's like, well, what can we do
about that?
Right?
Because we have these tools now,we have AI.
And the idea is, well, maybe thesalespeople need to work in a
smarter environment for them.
Maybe we do need to mold alittle bit to them.
(20:34):
And that solution that westarted touch on was um in the
last show was more of hey, whathappens if, you know, if you're
using Slack, for example, wehave a Slack bot that literally
messages the next thing that acloser needs to do when they're
not on a call, right?
This is the next highestpriority thing.
Send this specific email basedon the conversations you've
(20:55):
already had to this prospect orcall this prospect, schedule a
follow-up with this prospect,and this is what that call flow
should look like.
Right.
So now, you know, it's almostlike a closer can work off this
um infinite task list, right?
Um, and not saying that that wewe want to overload them, we
(21:19):
want to we want to take thethinking part away, right?
So I know infinite task listscan sound like, okay, now
they're gonna expect me to havethis much output or whatever.
Look, closures make money oncommissions, right?
So it's no no question that alot of times there's a base
involved, but they make moremoney on commissions, right?
And ideally, salespeople operatebest when there's some form of
(21:40):
you know uncapped type ofearning potential, yeah, right?
Not saying that's always alwaysreasonable depending on the
industry, but that's how theythey are most incentivized to to
get their work done.
So, with that said, you know,how can we help them collect the
most revenue collect the mostcash for themselves to make the
(22:01):
most money?
And how can we help the businessalso make the most revenue in a
way that makes sense?
Let's take the thinking out ofit for them and make it easy and
collect some of that 150K thatwe're losing every 100K or 2.5
million that we're losing every1 million, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
So I have a I have a question around that.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
$1.5 million that we're losing every no, I love
it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
Like, this is a great statistic.
Um, the question I have is um,what got me into digital
marketing was trying to getleverage because I was dialing
for dollars, I was doing fulloutreach, I was a headhunter in
oil and gas.
That's kind of the tie-in to oiland gas, and I place like 200
something people in leadershippositions.
(22:42):
And so that gave me kind of anin in that market.
Um one of the the activitiesthat I had to do, and this was
way back, this is like LinkedInwas launching.
Okay, so this was around thattime.
Yeah, but every night I would godo research, okay, to find
people that I could call.
(23:03):
And depending on how muchresearch I did, how long my list
was, because some peopleanswered, some people didn't, it
it changed on how many calls Iwas trying to reach.
So they wanted us to make 60 to80 calls a day and leave
messages if we didn't getanybody, and it would be lower
if we were on the phone withsomebody for a long time and
(23:24):
they measured minutes on thephone and all this sort of
thing.
SPEAKER_02 (23:27):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (23:28):
It would have been great.
So, how would you set that up?
Like if someone is doing coldoutreach, um, like I'm thinking
through it right now.
I have some ideas, but I'd loveto hear from you.
If it could give me an endlessamount of prospects to call,
like, right, I load in a list,um, you know, use some kind of
tool to enrich the data wherewhere, you know, and then it
(23:50):
pulls in like Hunter IO orwhatever.
It starts to pull in stuff likeinto the workflow and it just
keeps giving you people to call.
Um, that's different than likethe organizations, like the bell
rings and the you answer thephone, it's all inbound, right?
But like just how would you lookat that?
I would love to break that downa little bit more because that
was one of the activities that Idid and I spent so much time
(24:13):
doing research.
And I know in our previouspodcast, which I'll link that
guys when it's live, I'll goupdate it in the show notes of
this show.
So it's kind of like part one,part two, I guess.
Um uh, but you know, that's oiland gas sales and marketing, but
there's a lot of good like salesand marketing conversations that
happen.
And this was an uh interviewwith just Steven and I.
(24:34):
Uh, so so so we we we started totee some of this stuff up.
But I would love to hear kind ofhow you would view that.
Um, because that's that'sprobably something that a lot of
agencies uh or freelancers aredealing with.
Okay, like I need more clientsor whatever.
Um, where do I start?
Because, well, SEO is a little,um, it's changing, paid ads are
(24:56):
changing, like, you know, searchis going everywhere.
So a lot of people are saying,hey, I need to switch to cold
outreach, right?
And so um, you know, they'rethey're starting rudimentary,
maybe setting up that outreach.
Like, how would they do that?
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yeah.
So so one thing that I just wantto say is there are people
smarter than cold outreach thanme, but I have strategies that
we use within the sales processthat I I feel are um very
useful.
And you can do what you saidwhere you, you know, you
generate a list, like maybe yougo into Apollo or something like
that and you generate a list andyou can start there.
(25:33):
But I would urge everyone who'slistening to this to start
smarter, not harder.
If you're not starting a brandnew business and launching a
brand new domain and your yourbusiness has been up for a
minute, uh throw RB2B up on yourwebsite, uh, which is a tool
that will identify, and there'sthere's competitors of them too,
but it's a tool that willidentify uh people who are
(25:57):
visiting your website and giveyou like an email and a LinkedIn
profile.
Okay.
RB2B has a uh they haveintegration setup and
everything.
So you can do the same thingwith a code list that I'm saying
right here.
I'm just gonna talk in thisaspect because I I feel like
it's an easier win for anybodywho's like, I'm hurting for
(26:19):
clients.
What do I do?
Well, why don't you look to seewho's actually visiting your
website, not doing anything thatyou don't even know.
They're not filling out leadforms or anything like that,
which is let's be real, the vastmajority of people landing on
your website.
All right, so uh you take thatinformation, right?
Now you set up an account on uhclay.com.
Clay is a RevOps data enrichmentplatform.
(26:45):
Uh, what does that mean?
It means it's really good attaking some information and
finding out more information.
It can uh eliminate a lot of theresearch that people do in a
sales process.
So if you already have someonebook a call with you, like this
is great too, right?
If you have someone hit yourwebsite, it's great.
If you have leads that you knowyou're gonna call or something
(27:09):
like that, or maybe you have aninitial conversation or through
the cold calling and you'regonna try and do some more, then
that's great.
If you're using like a dream 100list, you definitely want to run
these people through here beforeyou have the the conversation
with them.
Okay, so um RB2B, I'm not gonnaget into the nitty-gritty
details, it integrates with theclay table, right?
(27:29):
So that information comes overusually first name, last name,
email, LinkedIn profile.
And Clay will use thatinformation to find a sell
number of theirs, not just abusiness number, it can find a
sell number.
Um, it can confirm businessemail, it can look at the
company profile and find outinformation about the company.
It can find out if they're umhiring for a specific uh piece
(27:53):
that might relate to yourservice.
So if you're in marketing,you're a marketing agency, you
it Clay will be able topotentially find if they're
hiring for a marketing manageror paid media expert or
something like that.
And that can create uh hooks foryou in order to use an you know
email outreach, but then alsohave this knowledge when you
(28:16):
call them, right?
So if you're calling someone onthe on this, you know, Dream 100
list or someone that hits yoursite and it's like, hey, um, you
know, saw you hit the site andsaw you guys were, you know,
hiring for this, you know,position, is that something that
you're open to outsourcinginstead, right?
Like, and and I'm not perfectword tracks at all right now,
(28:38):
but like that strategy issomething that can be highly
useful.
And and clay can integrate withpretty much anything too, right?
So that can come back to Slackchannel, it can go into um your
CRM, it can do whatever you wantit to do.
Obviously, keep in mind thesepeople didn't opt in, so you got
to be smart about how you'rehandling all this stuff um with
(28:59):
text messaging laws and andthings of that nature.
So um, you know, cold calling isone thing, but um certain other
things are different.
I know Texas is getting allcrazy with with their text
message laws.
So keep that stuff in mind as asyou're going through all this.
But um, in terms of the dataenrichment side and doing
pre-research before a call, AIis uh like just completely
(29:22):
changing the game.
And you know, to the pointwhere, you know, Matt, you and I
had some off um off podcastconversation about how you can
create pretty intense, you know,presentations or reports to send
somebody that can be pre-callcollateral that you can go over
on a sales call.
(29:43):
And we do that, you know, in youknow, in an organization I work
with where we talk about how wecan increase EBITDA, right?
And if if that's something thatspeaks to that industry, like we
can create reports around thatwith AI in a matter of, you
know.
15, 20 minutes, what used totake hours of research and make
(30:04):
it look design pretty usingsomething like gamma.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
So yeah.
So I think what we're talkingabout is very personalized.
Like when when you when you hearthe term personalization, this
is what we're talking about.
It's a personalized you you knowabout the person, you can
customize the outreach.
Um, the more prep that you do,because everything's so noisy.
(30:28):
You talked about the textmessaging laws, which right?
Like, I don't want to answer myphone if I don't know uh who it
is.
Um, and then I get a bunch ofspam text messages, and then
people are um not even checkingtheir email because there's uh
people violating all kinds oflaws uh on that.
Like I remember fax blasting, Imean, marketers ruin everything.
(30:51):
Um I mean they they do soblasphemous, you know, the the
more the more customized you canbe to speak to the person's
problem.
And if you can hit them in thepocketbook of of finances and
show them uh hard numbers,they're gonna pay attention.
And with all the noise outthere, you how do how do you get
(31:16):
in front of them if you're notphysically in front of them at a
conference or you're you'regoing by their office, which
takes a lot of time.
Um, and if you're doing masscold outreach, how do you do it
smartly?
Because it's spam if it's justshotgun everywhere, but if it's
personalized, it's helpful,right?
(31:38):
Like so, so you can reallydamage your brand if you do it
wrong, um, but then you can makeconnections you would never have
if you do it properly.
And you know, we talk abouttaking time to do um some
additional research to make surethat connection and you know, if
you're having uh AI do a lot ofthis stuff, like small start
(32:01):
with a small training set, likedon't just turn it on and don't
check it.
Like I know so many people thathave set up automations which
violate LinkedIn, like let's saya LinkedIn bot or whatever,
violate terms of service, andthen they're pushing out a link
that doesn't even work.
Okay, like, or it has like nameand they didn't test it, and so
(32:23):
it's just saying, like, youknow, whatever, whatever the
little boxes, you know, um withthe name in it, but it's
actually not their name.
Like, take some time if you'regonna leverage automation to
make sure it reflects yourbrand.
And then the answer to that islike, oh, it's just volume,
volume, volume.
It's like buy 10 differentdomains that you don't use,
(32:45):
okay?
And then blast it out.
Like, like, I don't like thesetactics.
I love inbound.
I yeah, you know, like I like todrink my own Kool-Aid.
And when people call us, theylike 75% of the research is done
before they pick up the phoneand call you.
So you were talking aboutretargeting or you know,
(33:07):
reaching out to the people thatthat are on your website.
SPEAKER_02 (33:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
If you're doing cold outreach, guess what, everyone?
If they come look and youhaven't posted on whatever their
favorite channel is in twoyears, okay, like it's gonna be
an issue.
Like, you got to maintain yourpresence online.
You have to maintain yoursocials.
Um, people need to be able tofind out who you are and and
(33:32):
what you are because when theyget that message, if it catches
their interest, the first thingthey're gonna do is go to
Google, right?
They're gonna go to yourwebsite, they're gonna look at
you.
So they are investigating um howyou present yourself, what you
say, your customer reviews, allthe things that go into digital
marketing have to be done rightbefore you start to outreach
(33:55):
people because they're gonna dothat investigation.
And and and I I've I've done anumber of podcasts where we're
where we talk about personalbrand, and you know, I'm
starting to get into more entitySEO and like who are you as an
individual?
If someone researches you,Steven, or like let's say
somebody else, someoneresearches somebody else on
(34:16):
LinkedIn that was doing coldoutreach and they haven't been
posting on LinkedIn, they don'thave a picture, uh, the the
company they work for is wrong,like there's red flags, right?
Like people are gonna do that,or they're gonna Google you, or
they're gonna go to yourwebsite.
Like it needs to be clean, itneeds to be updated before you
(34:37):
start introducing yourself topeople like on the street
online, like you know, goinginto groups, whatever, um, or or
reaching out to them by email.
You better make sure yourdigital presence is in order and
is reflective of your brandbefore you do that.
And so marketing and sales arestarting to be connected in the
(34:57):
CRO.
And then in the RevOff space,you're just starting to, you're
pulling in finance, right?
Like and you're pulling inactual numbers and deal size,
and um it's that next layer.
And so all these things have towork like an orchestra, uh it
work in concert.
Um, uh, and we, you know, wehaven't even got into
(35:18):
orchestration of agents yet, butum, you know, like all this is
where it's going.
And adopt it now because you'regonna have to adopt it later and
you don't want to be on the tailend of the curve.
I feel like so many people areoperating their business uh the
same way that they always have.
And there's a monumental shiftin how business is done, and
(35:42):
people are using it here andthere to like get a little bit
of leverage, and they haven'tbuilt the automations, they
haven't started to connectthings in.
They're they're not only losingout on a deal and a half size or
whatever, whatever metric youwant to use.
Um, yeah, like they're gettingleft behind of what the market's
doing.
And right now we're still in theearly adopter phase.
(36:06):
So, like, get on this now.
Reach out to Steven, reach outto me.
We can help you integrate thisstuff before it gets noisier,
right?
The personalization cuts throughwith that that message that
speaks to them.
That's working because everybodyelse is just creating spam and
(36:27):
noise and not leveraging thesetools right.
It's just a volume and a numbersgame.
And sales has been that way fora long time.
That's shifting to.
SPEAKER_02 (36:38):
Yeah, I I agree.
I I think a lot of what you saidjust is so like it resonates so
much.
And and with a lot ofindustries, some of them got
away with not operating veryquick on the internet side of
things, right?
Because it you it's a fact.
(36:58):
Right, yeah.
People talking, like reputationwas enough, and it still got to
the point where internet youknow helps and and would help
more.
And there's people that knowthat, but AI is a different
monster because it's not justit's not even just visibility at
this point.
I know we're talking aboutmarketing, but it's about how
(37:20):
your business operates from anefficiency standpoint.
And if all of a sudden, nomatter what your reputation is,
your competitors competitorsstart out producing you or able
to do things quicker than youand more efficiently with a more
consistent output and do itbetter, it doesn't matter.
It like nothing uh nothing'sgonna save your business at that
(37:41):
point.
So, yeah, being being at the endof this isn't a good place to
be.
Being early on on this isdefinitely the on-time metric, I
would say.
Like being early is on time inin this one, uh, you know, by by
like, and that's not just aprojection.
That's I think that's prettyobjective at this point, the way
that that people who are youknow looking at this are.
(38:03):
This isn't about being early tobe, you know, investing in a
stock, right?
We know that this is going in adirection that's going to change
business.
SPEAKER_01 (38:11):
And and one other thing I want to highlight about
this is the the buyers today,like the search behavior online
is fundamentally changing.
And the buyers and thestakeholders in today's world
are more internet savvy becausethey're closer to the genesis of
it all, right?
And so um that's gonna continueto happen and assistance to
(38:35):
those decision makers of thepeople going to do the research
to even get you in the shortlist, are using the internet to
do that.
Okay.
And so the like there's a lotthat's colliding right now.
And yeah, we're talking aboutfundamentally changing your
workflows, how you work, becausenow you have a gentic or like
(39:00):
helpers, like like people thatare like super intelligent, but
need some direction andguardrails.
And um, that's where the SOPsand the workflows come in.
And so how you've been operatingbusiness up to this point, or
2023 or whatever, um, hasfundamentally changed.
(39:22):
And and all these areas of notjust how people are searching
for information, how they arefinding information, how they
are buying, how like I rememberwhen no, like they were just
trying to give you your creditcard online.
Like they were just like, pleasebuy this online, right?
And and and and people weren'tweren't there yet.
Um, now it's it's common daypractice.
(39:44):
And I even see uh crypto, okay.
I I see um the the stable coinrails colliding into this and
and that layer of money for theinternet, and you know, is
absolutely coming, and peopleneed to be prepared for it, and
you know, getting up to date onautomation, getting up to date
(40:07):
on taking all your fracturedsystems, and like I know people
and we still do it to a certainextent, log in to like multiple
platforms a day, right?
These systems need to talk toeach other so you can pull
insights, you can makedecisions, and also if um, you
know, uh uh uh LOM, whatever,pick whatever one you want, has
(40:28):
access to this information,which you now you talk about
data governance, like you yougot a lot of different
components here that you need tothink about, but moving towards
like a kind of an AI firstcompany, um you're gonna get
what you were saying is so muchum like you're gonna start to
outpace people in a way thatthey can't catch up.
(40:52):
Correct, you know, and and so II wanna let you keep talking.
I think what you're saying is iscompletely brilliant, but I
wanted to tee that up foreverybody to like take the leap.
Like, I'm just take action,reach out to Steven, reach out
to me.
Like, we can help you because Iknow that there's a lot of
agency owners out there, andit's a lot, it's a lot, okay.
(41:16):
Um take it a piece by piece, eatit one elephant at a time, force
rank what you need to learn,have different people on your
team, learn different things.
You know, this is all aboutworking as a cohesive unit.
And if you have more teams orVAs that you're working with,
you know, start to have themlearn different things.
And anybody listening to theskill sets that people are
(41:39):
hiring for is AI first.
Like, like if you're lit, a lotof people that listen are, you
know, in college or graduatingor whatever, like you being able
to use these tools is betterthan any internship, and it's
almost better than any degree.
Okay.
It's it's about how to think insystems that that is is going to
(42:01):
be the most powerful and havingagency in in what you're doing
it is really what this is about.
You can learn the tools, you canfigure it out, you're smart.
Um, but but being able to be thearchitect of this sort of thing
is is where I think it's going.
So back to you, Stephen.
SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
Yeah, no, I absolutely I I couldn't agree
more.
And and one thing just to kindof you know touch on what you
were saying in terms of the ifyou start this, people can't
catch up type deal.
There's a reason that is, andand it's not it's not like, hey,
like, you know, in in internetmarketing, it was like, okay,
you can eventually do enough SEOand potentially outpace that, or
(42:43):
you know, do more blogs or moreguest articles or whatever it
is, increase the way that you'regetting quality backlinks and
and that's something I'm not anSEO expert, so I just want to
make that clear.
So hopefully what I said madesome sense there.
But in in uh in in the AI world,the reason why it's different is
because AI becomes part of aprocess in in which that you
(43:07):
operate.
So the second that you startadjusting your processes to
include AI, just means thatyou're you're outpacing things
so far that these other folksaren't gonna catch up.
Because by the time you're sixmonths down the road and they
start, if you if you go anothersix months, everyone in your
(43:28):
company is already thinking inAI.
So they're going to naturallycreate more solutions that are
using AI to be better.
You're gonna be like, oh, well,we could do this, we could make
this process better, which wouldcut down on this amount of time,
and we could just review it,right?
And if you think about that onthe other end, it's really
scary, right?
If you're on the opposite sideof this and your competitors are
(43:50):
using this for six months, ayear, two years, whatever it is,
and you're just getting going.
And their RFP process takesthree hours, and you know,
they're able to create campaignstrategies within, you know, 30
minutes and and all this stuff,and you're you're literally
(44:11):
spending days on all thesetasks.
Well, their ability to acquiremore customers and produce for
them completely changes,especially if they know how to
input their their domainknowledge into it all, and it's
not generic.
SPEAKER_01 (44:27):
So, Steven, we're running low on time.
Um, I want to uh stop here andmaybe we'll bring you back on
and and do a part three or parttwo, yeah, right.
Um, uh I think uh the perfectenvironment for this, guys, is
we are launching a LM visibilitytraining course.
(44:48):
Okay, we're launching an LMvisibility certification.
And you know, this was kind of asneak peek into a mini
mastermind on you know how togrow your agency in the new like
AI era.
Um, and so we'll definitelybring Steven back.
Um, we'll we're gonna talk moreabout the details uh in that
(45:08):
mastermind, in that workshop,because you can't get away from
AI.
Does that make sense?
Like even if we're doing SEO, AISEO, Chat GBT SEO, GEO, LLM
visibility, like AIdiscoverability, whatever you
want to call it.
Okay, like there's a lot ofdifferent names, there's a lot
of different noise.
There's a lot of noise outthere.
(45:30):
You know, I believe LLMvisibility, which I've actually
uh tried to coin the term andand build a framework around
this, okay.
Um this is the future.
Um, and so our LM uh visibilitycertification will be launching
shortly.
Um, bestseo podcast.com is whereit's gonna live temporarily.
(45:51):
Uh LM Visibility Stack Um.com.
We're building that out rightnow.
Um, and you know, until then,uh, because this podcast is
going to be released, um, notimmediately, um, reach out to
Steven.
Steven, uh, what is the best wayto get in touch with you?
Uh, where do you post your work?
(46:13):
Um, you know, just share with uhuh anybody that wants to find
out more.
SPEAKER_02 (46:17):
Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn.
It's the easiest place.
Stephen uh Worley, Steven's withV W-E-R-L-E-Y.
Sure, it's somewhere around inthe notes or whatever wherever.
Um, and then also you can alsouh check out my website, which
is closable.ai.
Uh and you know that has more ofthe tools around actual sales uh
(46:38):
processes and and whatnot, whichis obviously a lot where my
focus is and sales first uhbusinesses and organizations and
how we can use AI in there.
And obviously, because AI is sooverreaching, sometimes we
extend a little bit within.
Um, but that's where we start,where we can make the the most
impact.
SPEAKER_01 (46:57):
So I love that.
All right.
So if you're listening, by thetime this comes out, we should
have everything up and going uhwith with our certification, our
links.
We'll put all Steven's links inthe show notes.
Um I would ask you to leave areview.
Uh, anybody that is listeningand is getting good value out of
(47:17):
this, please leave a review onthe platform you're listening
on.
A lot of people like to leavereviews on our GNB um and that
or Google Business Profile.
Um leave it please on theplatform you're listening on.
That that's super helpful.
Uh we'll we'll be talking moreabout uh entities and and and
how that works, but we want totie everything back and link
(47:40):
everything back to to wherewe're at.
So I I would ask, you know,share share this podcast with
somebody that you think would beuh this would be useful for.
Um and and please leave areview.
And thank you so much for yoursupport.
Um and you know, if you want togrow your business with the
largest, most powerful tool onthe planet, the internet, like
get on it, like jump in and andstart start leveraging it.
(48:05):
It's time, um, and uh leverageit with AI.
I think AI is comparably equalto the launch of the internet.
I I or bigger, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
Um I think it's bigger, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:19):
But but it's on that level, and and I've even seen
projections of AI agent economygrowing by 75%, like the
existing economy size.
Like, so different areas of thecountry are are affected
differently.
Like I talked to a VP ofinnovation that said, I haven't
found any use cases for AI.
That that that's an educationthing.
(48:42):
Um, this is not a fad.
Get on it, guys.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
This is the best SEO podcast.
Bye bye for now.
This is the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Your inside a guide to thestrategy top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Howdy, welcome back to another fun-filled episode of
the Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am going to be changing thename.
I was going through an identitycrisis.
There's a lot of like entity SEOstuff that uh is happening that
we're dealing with the best SEOpodcast is all our handles.
We've been that for uh 12 years,maybe 13, going on 13 years.
(00:34):
And so I'm gonna drop theunknown secrets.
Um, you know, maybe we we didcome out with a book.
Okay, so we took all the oldpodcasts, like 700 podcasts, we
ran it through AI, uh, and wefound a storyline and we put
together a book.
It is up on Amazon.
I would ask you, please goreview it.
(00:54):
Um, uh buy it, get uh uh if Idon't have a Kendall version,
just wait.
I'll put up a Kendall version,like a dollar.
Um, you know, I think it's greatcontent.
Uh the foundations of SEOhaven't changed, but how people
search the web has changed.
And that leads me to uh myguest, who I actually just had
(01:16):
on my oil and gas sales andmarketing podcast.
He did some cold outreach, uh,you know, convinced my uh my
co-host on that podcast to bringus on.
And then my co-host bailed on meand uh Steven and I were just
jamming about AI workflows,outreach, um uh analysis, prep,
(01:38):
all the things you can do withAI.
I know if you're listening tothis podcast, uh AI has been
very disruptive uh in marketing.
That was probably marketing andsales, is one of the first areas
that it uh, you know, impacted.
So we're we're ahead of thecurve in that area.
And uh Steve's doing something,Stephen Worley.
Welcome to the show, Steven.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
Hey, thanks.
Yeah, no, excited to run thisback, so keep it rolling.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:02):
Yeah.
So um, you know, you're likeautomations are like one layer,
right?
And then agentic workflows arethe second layer on top of that.
And a lot of people that arelistening are probably using it
for content creation.
They're building it to enhancewhat they're doing.
(02:22):
We're starting to use it a lotin data analysis, um, you know,
building sales presentations.
We talked a little bit about.
Um, you gave me some tips on.
And um cold outreach is now avery big thing, you know, uh
customer service bots, but we'renot talking about just if-then
(02:44):
statements.
We're talking about actual umtrained LLMs that are tuned for
your business, that uh canreference documents, can give
information.
It's really amazing what'shappening.
And this is the next layer isplugging in what you're doing
manually or what you're havingyour team do, or VAs uh to use
(03:08):
these workflows, to use theseLMs and agentic workflows to
drive your business forward.
And so I would love for you tokind of just set the table on
you were a sales trainer beforethis, yeah, what what you were
seeing, what was happening, andwhy you decided to take the the
(03:29):
jump to to start building out uha lot of automation and mainly
and an N8N.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
So yeah, absolutely.
So one thing when when you'remanaging a a lot of people,
especially in a sales team,everyone is taking sales calls
every day.
So those should be to someextent reviewed and provided
feedback on.
So you can see and imaginewhether you're in sales or not
(03:59):
as your primary, that that's a ahuge responsibility from a time
standpoint uh and a personnelstandpoint that creates a really
big barrier to scalability.
So that was the problem that Ifaced, and that's what forced me
to start diving into AI more.
Luckily, I have a little bit ofa tech background, so it's
(04:21):
pretty easy for me to start topick up, but um I I paid
somebody to help me learn it alittle bit.
Um, somebody who actually, I wasin their mastermind for a while,
so I had a lot of a good trustwith them and I knew they were
doing a lot.
Uh, and I was able to learn howto use AI effectively,
specifically generative AI,going into the LLMs and
(04:44):
communicating with them,building custom GPTs and things
of that nature.
I think that step is reallyimportant to anyone that is
looking to do something, becauseyou can you might have the the
mind of you know an engineer andyou know, visionary and be able
to architect these grand plans,but if you don't know how to get
(05:08):
the res the results and theoutput that you want from the
LLM, it really doesn't matter.
And that right there, I think,is the biggest gap that I've
seen in terms of a lot of thethe SaaSes that have come out in
terms of AI, because they're toogeneric, they're not dialed in
specifically to a specific, youknow, company process.
(05:31):
And you know, the the one waythat I like to explain is that
when when I'm working withsomeone, uh they have the domain
knowledge, right?
I might have some AI knowledge,I might have some sales
knowledge, but they havespecific domain knowledge that
makes them unique in who theyare.
And if you don't use that inyour AI process, you're losing,
(05:53):
right?
Then you're just generic, thenyou're like everyone else.
So that's the biggest thing andand the the pathway.
So first I learned thegenerative AI train, I
understood how to do that reallywell, and then my automation
instincts kicked in, and I waslike, well, I bet I could
probably make this smoother,right?
So when I take what I did in thecustom GPT, put it into an open
(06:16):
AI assistant, and now have it doit via API so that way when uh
you know a deal moves from thisstage to that stage, it
automatically is grabbing stuffor transcript processes from
read.ai, it grabs it from awebhook, sends it to AI, it
provides feedback, drops intoGoogle Doc, provides some
(06:38):
follow-up messages, things likethat.
And now all of a sudden we'reagentic, right?
So that's that's the big idea.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Awesome.
So I'm gonna break some of thisdown uh just a little bit more.
Uh, and it also falls in linewith my uh my journey um is
started using uh LLMs a lot,right?
Because cleaning data andlabeling data was not super fun,
took a long time to do anythingwith um big plots of data and
(07:08):
and data marks, warehouses,lakes, whatever you want to call
it.
And um, you know, so we wereusing it uh a lot, like with
like an ERP system to enhance uhproduct descriptions or stuff
like that, but really using itday to day until LLMs came out,
(07:29):
um that that's what reallychanged the game.
And after I started using it alot, and I know a lot of people
that are listening are startingto use it more and more and
more.
And a lot of the conversationthat um we're working on is how
to get visibility and chat GBTuh and perplexity and and some
of the other LMs.
(07:49):
Like, so how do they sortthrough how do those agents uh
comb through the information?
Because Google was like alibrarian.
You go to Google and say, hey, Iwant to get this knowledge and
be like, okay, go here, go here,go here.
Now it actually goes and gets itfor you, right?
Um also people are starting touse it for more and more stuff
(08:10):
as uh as the adoption curvecomes in, and they're starting
to ask it more unstructuredquestions.
So prompt engineering is whereeveryone should start.
I actually took a bunch ofdifferent certifications.
Really, it was just learning forme from different people how
they were approaching it, howthey were building prompts.
I know there's a lot of peopleout there, and I used to like
(08:32):
take screenshots of like allthese different prompts that
people were using.
And once you understood how thecake's made, then now you can
start to get the outputs and uhtune that to what you're trying
to do.
And then a custom GPT, I have abunch of those built.
I built some really fun ones,but it was just taking the LLM
(08:52):
and then training uh it onspecific data that I would like
to see, and then capturing thatin the instructions so I would
get that recall.
So people that are using theChatGPT get to a certain place,
it knows certain things.
And then if you keep talking toit or you start a new thread,
and now with five uh ChatGPTfive, I was using a lot of Chat
(09:15):
GPT four, it doesn't remembereverything crystal clear
anymore, which I don't like.
Um, I think that was due to likesafety potentially of some of
the stuff that's happening.
Like it can still, you know, pinit and recall it, but like
understanding how thetransformers, how how the
information is processed, how toask the prompts, it's
foundational because guess what?
(09:36):
Everything else is built on topof that.
And then what you start talkingabout is okay, so you you have
the prompt engineering, you havethe custom GPT.
And if people are up to speedand workflows or if y'all are
using GoHi level or whatever itis, right?
You're you're if you're notstrong in automations, a lot of
stuff can be solved throughautomations.
(09:59):
Now, what we're talking about istaking that maybe custom GPT
that's tuned to get the outputthat you're looking for, um, and
and build it into your workflow,your automation workflow.
And as those two come together,it becomes really, really
powerful because it can answerthings, it can think, it can uh
do different things thatpotentially a level one customer
(10:21):
service or salesperson, outreachperson can do.
And so now if you start to, youknow, use APIs and bolt some of
this stuff together, now it'sabout domain knowledge and
that's foundational knowledge,and then bringing someone like
you and Steven to help uh, youknow, smooth it out or or build
(10:43):
it for them or something likethat.
I would love to kind of talkabout some of the things you
built, maybe case studies of uhwe talked last time, you said
you were building some greatprompts, and then you know, you
thought they were amazing, andthen the sales team was like,
Oh, I'm not sure uh how I how toincorporate this.
I would love to hear some ofthose things that you built or
(11:04):
um some of the things you'reyou're building for clients.
I'd love to start there.
SPEAKER_02 (11:09):
Yeah, like the the journey of like kind of where it
started and where it's it'sheaded.
Um yeah, yeah, yeah, where it'sat.
Absolutely.
So I'm a big uh click up poweruser.
Um, and we also use high levelquite a bit inside of the the
sales work.
So a high level actually getssuper noisy, I found.
(11:31):
So my initial idea was with withthe sales teams when I was
managing the sales agency waswell, why don't we just use uh
go high level as a communicationplatform?
Just send text messages and umemails and stuff like that.
And we'll use go high level asthe the CRM pipeline aspect,
(11:53):
like the pipeline managementbecause it's more more granular,
able to build better dashboardsand click up, and I found it
just easier to createconnections.
And you can say that, like, hey,you can tie into go high level,
and you absolutely can, don'tget me wrong.
It's just that if I had peoplecoming in and managing one
(12:14):
board, I thought that was good.
That was the first iteration.
I couldn't get people to go intoclick up and do that because
they were very confused, and nowit's like adding another tool.
So the next iteration of thatwas custom dashboards within
clickup.
Now, this actually got a lot ofgood traction.
So each sales rep had a a customdashboard.
(12:34):
And um, for anyone that that'smanaged sales reps, they
actually a lot of times I I findthat especially the top guys,
they'll take all their leads andthrow them in a Google Sheet,
and there'll be like a list, andthey'll just say like what I did
last, basically, and just keepadding more like rows.
So it's nice because ClickUp hasthis list feature, right?
(12:56):
So in the dashboards, it wouldjust list out like, hey, these
are today's calls that need tobe categorized, and then like
then it would have a separatepipeline section with a list of
all their leads of peoplethey've already talked to.
And and uh to be categorized,they had to do things like, and
this isn't AI yet, right?
But but to be categorized, theyhad to do things like input
projected deal size, um, move itto the right stage, uh lead
(13:20):
score state, things like that,right?
And maybe put in a call URL,right?
Okay, we're getting somewhere.
Now it's like, well, this isstill this is still a lot for a
salesperson to do admin-wise atthe end of the day.
So now it's like, okay, and andI I touched on this earlier, but
(13:40):
it's like, okay, what if we had,you know, uh the the call
recording transcription come infrom a webhook, which it does.
So it can come in through awebhook, and you can use n8n for
some of this, you can usemake.com for some of this, you
can use Zapier for some of this.
Yes.
And the the differences I'llI'll talk about, but for the
(14:02):
more simplistic automations, Iuse make, and then the more
complex automations I use N8N.
And I'll talk about that alittle bit later.
But you know, basically webhookcomes in into make, and then we
can send that to the custom openAI assistant to review the call.
That's something you knowspecifically built for that
offer, and then drop feedbackand notes within that clickup
(14:24):
deal.
And then we can also have itcontinue to then we can have now
ClickUp um has integrated theirown AI agents, which are uh
pretty rudimentary, but stillvery helpful.
So if you can prompt them right,you can uh get it to
automatically update deal sizeand deal details, update custom
(14:44):
fields and things like that.
It's not going to be able to uhdo super complex stuff like you
can in N8N, but it's still veryhelpful within the platform.
And the fact that Clikup hasthat AI ingrained within its own
platform, I found to beextremely um, extremely helpful
in terms of just being able tocreate some end-to-day stuff or
(15:05):
figure out what happenedthroughout the day and things of
that nature.
Now, ClickUp has their own uhmeeting recorder too, so that
can integrate directly in aswell.
So, anyways, now we'reautomatically updating things
within the deal and can helpmove things along for the sales
folks and maybe have them justconfirm it.
So we talked about this lasttime, but human in the loop for
anyone listening is superimportant.
(15:26):
Um, from at least myperspective, I believe Matt
Matt's perspective as well.
We when AI does something, weexpect it to get it 60 to 80
percent of the way there.
And we want a human to reallymake sure that things are going
well.
So we're not looking atreplacing, we're looking at
enabling, um, is is the termthat I like to use, AI
enablement.
Uh, and then you know, that thatwas like where it was at for a
(15:51):
while, right?
And still, there's still a techaversion from the salespeople,
right?
There's still this tech aversionfrom the salespeople.
And it's like, now, don't get mewrong, you got to to some extent
lay down the law and say, like,no, this is the process and this
is how you do it.
And I believe that if if youhave a good team, you can
(16:13):
demand, you know, that and andget that out of folks.
However, there's also a layerwhere it's like, well, what's
best for the actual salesprocess, right?
SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
So let me ask you this.
So we we use clickup too, um,and we use go high level, and we
are working through thatintegration.
Um, so this is a very similarjourney.
Um, we implemented Google Sheetforms or actually click-up
forms, like there's clickupforms, and we were having
(16:46):
salespeople, account managersfill out these forms to populate
the certain fields.
I used to do that.
And we found that to be a goodmedium step because you know,
maybe people don't want to golike clickup's noisy too, if it
or it's overwhelming if youdon't set up the custom
dashboard and you know, yeah,you're getting alerted all the
(17:09):
time.
Um, if you have a step processthat they follow, and and we
started using those clickupforms, and we are at least
getting the information,especially even like when you're
setting up projects, if it's nota template, like to fill out all
the information that you need.
Um, and then people can checkthe box.
Okay, I know I need to do thisevery time XYZ happens.
(17:30):
Uh, we found that to be useful.
Um uh, but it's you know, ofcourse, like you can make it
better, you can make itsmoother.
Right.
So, so so pick up where you leftoff in your in your story.
SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Yeah, so so I just to touch on that too.
I used to do that a little bit.
I had SDRs do more of theinputting of the deal, and then
I I had the deals automaticallypopulate in.
And I do find that SDRs, foranyone listening, are more um
apt to following SOPs and doingthings in a certain way than
than a closer is because theirtimes uh like you want them on,
(18:06):
right?
You want them on and dialing anddoing things, but their times a
little bit more flexible becausethey don't wake up to a bunch of
scheduled calls usually um asmuch as a a closer doesn't in
the sales process scenario.
Um sometimes they have somethings on there that they you
know have have scheduled, butusually usually a closure's
calendar is much more tight.
Um, I I find.
(18:27):
So yeah, back on uh where wewere at.
So I I do find that thedashboards have worked better
than the the forms overall.
But anyways, that that brings usto to where we're at, and it's
you know, what's best for thesales process, right?
What what's best to actually getthe most revenue out of this?
(18:49):
Um I think we talked about thison your show, but I did some
research with AI pretty recentlyabout how much money we lose
from prospects that we're notproperly following up with.
Now, this isn't a specific datapoint from MIT and Stanford, but
through AI's analysis of thearticle, this is about what it
(19:10):
works out to.
All right.
So so don't like quote me on it,FTC.
Um, this is a huge FTC just youknow warning disclosure, like
not necessarily perfect numbers,but for about every 100K you
close, uh you you lose 150K inin revenue.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
Wow, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
So so over over double what you're closing, you
could potentially be gettingbecause we're missing stuff.
So that's a light bulb, right?
That's that's one of thosethings that's almost every sales
organization is facing as aproblem.
And that's a massive problembecause almost almost all of
that is gonna affect bottom linepretty easily because they're
(19:51):
already acquired prospects.
You paid for them, they'rethey're part of everything
that's already worked into themath for the most part.
Maybe a little bit of usage inemails or text messages or or uh
affecting someone's timeslightly, but outside of that,
um the this is mostly accountedfor in terms of the top line,
(20:12):
right?
So when we think about that, nowit's like, well, what can we do
about that?
Right?
Because we have these tools now,we have AI.
And the idea is, well, maybe thesalespeople need to work in a
smarter environment for them.
Maybe we do need to mold alittle bit to them.
(20:34):
And that solution that westarted touch on was um in the
last show was more of hey, whathappens if, you know, if you're
using Slack, for example, wehave a Slack bot that literally
messages the next thing that acloser needs to do when they're
not on a call, right?
This is the next highestpriority thing.
Send this specific email basedon the conversations you've
(20:55):
already had to this prospect orcall this prospect, schedule a
follow-up with this prospect,and this is what that call flow
should look like.
Right.
So now, you know, it's almostlike a closer can work off this
um infinite task list, right?
Um, and not saying that that wewe want to overload them, we
(21:19):
want to we want to take thethinking part away, right?
So I know infinite task listscan sound like, okay, now
they're gonna expect me to havethis much output or whatever.
Look, closures make money oncommissions, right?
So it's no no question that alot of times there's a base
involved, but they make moremoney on commissions, right?
And ideally, salespeople operatebest when there's some form of
(21:40):
you know uncapped type ofearning potential, yeah, right?
Not saying that's always alwaysreasonable depending on the
industry, but that's how theythey are most incentivized to to
get their work done.
So, with that said, you know,how can we help them collect the
most revenue collect the mostcash for themselves to make the
(22:01):
most money?
And how can we help the businessalso make the most revenue in a
way that makes sense?
Let's take the thinking out ofit for them and make it easy and
collect some of that 150K thatwe're losing every 100K or 2.5
million that we're losing every1 million, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
So I have a I have a question around that.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
$1.5 million that we're losing every no, I love
it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
Like, this is a great statistic.
Um, the question I have is um,what got me into digital
marketing was trying to getleverage because I was dialing
for dollars, I was doing fulloutreach, I was a headhunter in
oil and gas.
That's kind of the tie-in to oiland gas, and I place like 200
something people in leadershippositions.
(22:42):
And so that gave me kind of anin in that market.
Um one of the the activitiesthat I had to do, and this was
way back, this is like LinkedInwas launching.
Okay, so this was around thattime.
Yeah, but every night I would godo research, okay, to find
people that I could call.
(23:03):
And depending on how muchresearch I did, how long my list
was, because some peopleanswered, some people didn't, it
it changed on how many calls Iwas trying to reach.
So they wanted us to make 60 to80 calls a day and leave
messages if we didn't getanybody, and it would be lower
if we were on the phone withsomebody for a long time and
(23:24):
they measured minutes on thephone and all this sort of
thing.
SPEAKER_02 (23:27):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (23:28):
It would have been great.
So, how would you set that up?
Like if someone is doing coldoutreach, um, like I'm thinking
through it right now.
I have some ideas, but I'd loveto hear from you.
If it could give me an endlessamount of prospects to call,
like, right, I load in a list,um, you know, use some kind of
tool to enrich the data wherewhere, you know, and then it
(23:50):
pulls in like Hunter IO orwhatever.
It starts to pull in stuff likeinto the workflow and it just
keeps giving you people to call.
Um, that's different than likethe organizations, like the bell
rings and the you answer thephone, it's all inbound, right?
But like just how would you lookat that?
I would love to break that downa little bit more because that
was one of the activities that Idid and I spent so much time
(24:13):
doing research.
And I know in our previouspodcast, which I'll link that
guys when it's live, I'll goupdate it in the show notes of
this show.
So it's kind of like part one,part two, I guess.
Um uh, but you know, that's oiland gas sales and marketing, but
there's a lot of good like salesand marketing conversations that
happen.
And this was an uh interviewwith just Steven and I.
(24:34):
Uh, so so so we we we started totee some of this stuff up.
But I would love to hear kind ofhow you would view that.
Um, because that's that'sprobably something that a lot of
agencies uh or freelancers aredealing with.
Okay, like I need more clientsor whatever.
Um, where do I start?
Because, well, SEO is a little,um, it's changing, paid ads are
(24:56):
changing, like, you know, searchis going everywhere.
So a lot of people are saying,hey, I need to switch to cold
outreach, right?
And so um, you know, they'rethey're starting rudimentary,
maybe setting up that outreach.
Like, how would they do that?
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yeah.
So so one thing that I just wantto say is there are people
smarter than cold outreach thanme, but I have strategies that
we use within the sales processthat I I feel are um very
useful.
And you can do what you saidwhere you, you know, you
generate a list, like maybe yougo into Apollo or something like
that and you generate a list andyou can start there.
(25:33):
But I would urge everyone who'slistening to this to start
smarter, not harder.
If you're not starting a brandnew business and launching a
brand new domain and your yourbusiness has been up for a
minute, uh throw RB2B up on yourwebsite, uh, which is a tool
that will identify, and there'sthere's competitors of them too,
but it's a tool that willidentify uh people who are
(25:57):
visiting your website and giveyou like an email and a LinkedIn
profile.
Okay.
RB2B has a uh they haveintegration setup and
everything.
So you can do the same thingwith a code list that I'm saying
right here.
I'm just gonna talk in thisaspect because I I feel like
it's an easier win for anybodywho's like, I'm hurting for
(26:19):
clients.
What do I do?
Well, why don't you look to seewho's actually visiting your
website, not doing anything thatyou don't even know.
They're not filling out leadforms or anything like that,
which is let's be real, the vastmajority of people landing on
your website.
All right, so uh you take thatinformation, right?
Now you set up an account on uhclay.com.
Clay is a RevOps data enrichmentplatform.
(26:45):
Uh, what does that mean?
It means it's really good attaking some information and
finding out more information.
It can uh eliminate a lot of theresearch that people do in a
sales process.
So if you already have someonebook a call with you, like this
is great too, right?
If you have someone hit yourwebsite, it's great.
If you have leads that you knowyou're gonna call or something
(27:09):
like that, or maybe you have aninitial conversation or through
the cold calling and you'regonna try and do some more, then
that's great.
If you're using like a dream 100list, you definitely want to run
these people through here beforeyou have the the conversation
with them.
Okay, so um RB2B, I'm not gonnaget into the nitty-gritty
details, it integrates with theclay table, right?
(27:29):
So that information comes overusually first name, last name,
email, LinkedIn profile.
And Clay will use thatinformation to find a sell
number of theirs, not just abusiness number, it can find a
sell number.
Um, it can confirm businessemail, it can look at the
company profile and find outinformation about the company.
It can find out if they're umhiring for a specific uh piece
(27:53):
that might relate to yourservice.
So if you're in marketing,you're a marketing agency, you
it Clay will be able topotentially find if they're
hiring for a marketing manageror paid media expert or
something like that.
And that can create uh hooks foryou in order to use an you know
email outreach, but then alsohave this knowledge when you
(28:16):
call them, right?
So if you're calling someone onthe on this, you know, Dream 100
list or someone that hits yoursite and it's like, hey, um, you
know, saw you hit the site andsaw you guys were, you know,
hiring for this, you know,position, is that something that
you're open to outsourcinginstead, right?
Like, and and I'm not perfectword tracks at all right now,
(28:38):
but like that strategy issomething that can be highly
useful.
And and clay can integrate withpretty much anything too, right?
So that can come back to Slackchannel, it can go into um your
CRM, it can do whatever you wantit to do.
Obviously, keep in mind thesepeople didn't opt in, so you got
to be smart about how you'rehandling all this stuff um with
(28:59):
text messaging laws and andthings of that nature.
So um, you know, cold calling isone thing, but um certain other
things are different.
I know Texas is getting allcrazy with with their text
message laws.
So keep that stuff in mind as asyou're going through all this.
But um, in terms of the dataenrichment side and doing
pre-research before a call, AIis uh like just completely
(29:22):
changing the game.
And you know, to the pointwhere, you know, Matt, you and I
had some off um off podcastconversation about how you can
create pretty intense, you know,presentations or reports to send
somebody that can be pre-callcollateral that you can go over
on a sales call.
(29:43):
And we do that, you know, in youknow, in an organization I work
with where we talk about how wecan increase EBITDA, right?
And if if that's something thatspeaks to that industry, like we
can create reports around thatwith AI in a matter of, you
know.
15, 20 minutes, what used totake hours of research and make
(30:04):
it look design pretty usingsomething like gamma.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
So yeah.
So I think what we're talkingabout is very personalized.
Like when when you when you hearthe term personalization, this
is what we're talking about.
It's a personalized you you knowabout the person, you can
customize the outreach.
Um, the more prep that you do,because everything's so noisy.
(30:28):
You talked about the textmessaging laws, which right?
Like, I don't want to answer myphone if I don't know uh who it
is.
Um, and then I get a bunch ofspam text messages, and then
people are um not even checkingtheir email because there's uh
people violating all kinds oflaws uh on that.
Like I remember fax blasting, Imean, marketers ruin everything.
(30:51):
Um I mean they they do soblasphemous, you know, the the
more the more customized you canbe to speak to the person's
problem.
And if you can hit them in thepocketbook of of finances and
show them uh hard numbers,they're gonna pay attention.
And with all the noise outthere, you how do how do you get
(31:16):
in front of them if you're notphysically in front of them at a
conference or you're you'regoing by their office, which
takes a lot of time.
Um, and if you're doing masscold outreach, how do you do it
smartly?
Because it's spam if it's justshotgun everywhere, but if it's
personalized, it's helpful,right?
(31:38):
Like so, so you can reallydamage your brand if you do it
wrong, um, but then you can makeconnections you would never have
if you do it properly.
And you know, we talk abouttaking time to do um some
additional research to make surethat connection and you know, if
you're having uh AI do a lot ofthis stuff, like small start
(32:01):
with a small training set, likedon't just turn it on and don't
check it.
Like I know so many people thathave set up automations which
violate LinkedIn, like let's saya LinkedIn bot or whatever,
violate terms of service, andthen they're pushing out a link
that doesn't even work.
Okay, like, or it has like nameand they didn't test it, and so
(32:23):
it's just saying, like, youknow, whatever, whatever the
little boxes, you know, um withthe name in it, but it's
actually not their name.
Like, take some time if you'regonna leverage automation to
make sure it reflects yourbrand.
And then the answer to that islike, oh, it's just volume,
volume, volume.
It's like buy 10 differentdomains that you don't use,
(32:45):
okay?
And then blast it out.
Like, like, I don't like thesetactics.
I love inbound.
I yeah, you know, like I like todrink my own Kool-Aid.
And when people call us, theylike 75% of the research is done
before they pick up the phoneand call you.
So you were talking aboutretargeting or you know,
(33:07):
reaching out to the people thatthat are on your website.
SPEAKER_02 (33:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
If you're doing cold outreach, guess what, everyone?
If they come look and youhaven't posted on whatever their
favorite channel is in twoyears, okay, like it's gonna be
an issue.
Like, you got to maintain yourpresence online.
You have to maintain yoursocials.
Um, people need to be able tofind out who you are and and
(33:32):
what you are because when theyget that message, if it catches
their interest, the first thingthey're gonna do is go to
Google, right?
They're gonna go to yourwebsite, they're gonna look at
you.
So they are investigating um howyou present yourself, what you
say, your customer reviews, allthe things that go into digital
marketing have to be done rightbefore you start to outreach
(33:55):
people because they're gonna dothat investigation.
And and and I I've I've done anumber of podcasts where we're
where we talk about personalbrand, and you know, I'm
starting to get into more entitySEO and like who are you as an
individual?
If someone researches you,Steven, or like let's say
somebody else, someoneresearches somebody else on
(34:16):
LinkedIn that was doing coldoutreach and they haven't been
posting on LinkedIn, they don'thave a picture, uh, the the
company they work for is wrong,like there's red flags, right?
Like people are gonna do that,or they're gonna Google you, or
they're gonna go to yourwebsite.
Like it needs to be clean, itneeds to be updated before you
(34:37):
start introducing yourself topeople like on the street
online, like you know, goinginto groups, whatever, um, or or
reaching out to them by email.
You better make sure yourdigital presence is in order and
is reflective of your brandbefore you do that.
And so marketing and sales arestarting to be connected in the
(34:57):
CRO.
And then in the RevOff space,you're just starting to, you're
pulling in finance, right?
Like and you're pulling inactual numbers and deal size,
and um it's that next layer.
And so all these things have towork like an orchestra, uh it
work in concert.
Um, uh, and we, you know, wehaven't even got into
(35:18):
orchestration of agents yet, butum, you know, like all this is
where it's going.
And adopt it now because you'regonna have to adopt it later and
you don't want to be on the tailend of the curve.
I feel like so many people areoperating their business uh the
same way that they always have.
And there's a monumental shiftin how business is done, and
(35:42):
people are using it here andthere to like get a little bit
of leverage, and they haven'tbuilt the automations, they
haven't started to connectthings in.
They're they're not only losingout on a deal and a half size or
whatever, whatever metric youwant to use.
Um, yeah, like they're gettingleft behind of what the market's
doing.
And right now we're still in theearly adopter phase.
(36:06):
So, like, get on this now.
Reach out to Steven, reach outto me.
We can help you integrate thisstuff before it gets noisier,
right?
The personalization cuts throughwith that that message that
speaks to them.
That's working because everybodyelse is just creating spam and
(36:27):
noise and not leveraging thesetools right.
It's just a volume and a numbersgame.
And sales has been that way fora long time.
That's shifting to.
SPEAKER_02 (36:38):
Yeah, I I agree.
I I think a lot of what you saidjust is so like it resonates so
much.
And and with a lot ofindustries, some of them got
away with not operating veryquick on the internet side of
things, right?
Because it you it's a fact.
(36:58):
Right, yeah.
People talking, like reputationwas enough, and it still got to
the point where internet youknow helps and and would help
more.
And there's people that knowthat, but AI is a different
monster because it's not justit's not even just visibility at
this point.
I know we're talking aboutmarketing, but it's about how
(37:20):
your business operates from anefficiency standpoint.
And if all of a sudden, nomatter what your reputation is,
your competitors competitorsstart out producing you or able
to do things quicker than youand more efficiently with a more
consistent output and do itbetter, it doesn't matter.
It like nothing uh nothing'sgonna save your business at that
(37:41):
point.
So, yeah, being being at the endof this isn't a good place to
be.
Being early on on this isdefinitely the on-time metric, I
would say.
Like being early is on time inin this one, uh, you know, by by
like, and that's not just aprojection.
That's I think that's prettyobjective at this point, the way
that that people who are youknow looking at this are.
(38:03):
This isn't about being early tobe, you know, investing in a
stock, right?
We know that this is going in adirection that's going to change
business.
SPEAKER_01 (38:11):
And and one other thing I want to highlight about
this is the the buyers today,like the search behavior online
is fundamentally changing.
And the buyers and thestakeholders in today's world
are more internet savvy becausethey're closer to the genesis of
it all, right?
And so um that's gonna continueto happen and assistance to
(38:35):
those decision makers of thepeople going to do the research
to even get you in the shortlist, are using the internet to
do that.
Okay.
And so the like there's a lotthat's colliding right now.
And yeah, we're talking aboutfundamentally changing your
workflows, how you work, becausenow you have a gentic or like
(39:00):
helpers, like like people thatare like super intelligent, but
need some direction andguardrails.
And um, that's where the SOPsand the workflows come in.
And so how you've been operatingbusiness up to this point, or
2023 or whatever, um, hasfundamentally changed.
(39:22):
And and all these areas of notjust how people are searching
for information, how they arefinding information, how they
are buying, how like I rememberwhen no, like they were just
trying to give you your creditcard online.
Like they were just like, pleasebuy this online, right?
And and and and people weren'tweren't there yet.
Um, now it's it's common daypractice.
(39:44):
And I even see uh crypto, okay.
I I see um the the stable coinrails colliding into this and
and that layer of money for theinternet, and you know, is
absolutely coming, and peopleneed to be prepared for it, and
you know, getting up to date onautomation, getting up to date
(40:07):
on taking all your fracturedsystems, and like I know people
and we still do it to a certainextent, log in to like multiple
platforms a day, right?
These systems need to talk toeach other so you can pull
insights, you can makedecisions, and also if um, you
know, uh uh uh LOM, whatever,pick whatever one you want, has
(40:28):
access to this information,which you now you talk about
data governance, like you yougot a lot of different
components here that you need tothink about, but moving towards
like a kind of an AI firstcompany, um you're gonna get
what you were saying is so muchum like you're gonna start to
outpace people in a way thatthey can't catch up.
(40:52):
Correct, you know, and and so II wanna let you keep talking.
I think what you're saying is iscompletely brilliant, but I
wanted to tee that up foreverybody to like take the leap.
Like, I'm just take action,reach out to Steven, reach out
to me.
Like, we can help you because Iknow that there's a lot of
agency owners out there, andit's a lot, it's a lot, okay.
(41:16):
Um take it a piece by piece, eatit one elephant at a time, force
rank what you need to learn,have different people on your
team, learn different things.
You know, this is all aboutworking as a cohesive unit.
And if you have more teams orVAs that you're working with,
you know, start to have themlearn different things.
And anybody listening to theskill sets that people are
(41:39):
hiring for is AI first.
Like, like if you're lit, a lotof people that listen are, you
know, in college or graduatingor whatever, like you being able
to use these tools is betterthan any internship, and it's
almost better than any degree.
Okay.
It's it's about how to think insystems that that is is going to
(42:01):
be the most powerful and havingagency in in what you're doing
it is really what this is about.
You can learn the tools, you canfigure it out, you're smart.
Um, but but being able to be thearchitect of this sort of thing
is is where I think it's going.
So back to you, Stephen.
SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
Yeah, no, I absolutely I I couldn't agree
more.
And and one thing just to kindof you know touch on what you
were saying in terms of the ifyou start this, people can't
catch up type deal.
There's a reason that is, andand it's not it's not like, hey,
like, you know, in in internetmarketing, it was like, okay,
you can eventually do enough SEOand potentially outpace that, or
(42:43):
you know, do more blogs or moreguest articles or whatever it
is, increase the way that you'regetting quality backlinks and
and that's something I'm not anSEO expert, so I just want to
make that clear.
So hopefully what I said madesome sense there.
But in in uh in in the AI world,the reason why it's different is
because AI becomes part of aprocess in in which that you
(43:07):
operate.
So the second that you startadjusting your processes to
include AI, just means thatyou're you're outpacing things
so far that these other folksaren't gonna catch up.
Because by the time you're sixmonths down the road and they
start, if you if you go anothersix months, everyone in your
(43:28):
company is already thinking inAI.
So they're going to naturallycreate more solutions that are
using AI to be better.
You're gonna be like, oh, well,we could do this, we could make
this process better, which wouldcut down on this amount of time,
and we could just review it,right?
And if you think about that onthe other end, it's really
scary, right?
If you're on the opposite sideof this and your competitors are
(43:50):
using this for six months, ayear, two years, whatever it is,
and you're just getting going.
And their RFP process takesthree hours, and you know,
they're able to create campaignstrategies within, you know, 30
minutes and and all this stuff,and you're you're literally
(44:11):
spending days on all thesetasks.
Well, their ability to acquiremore customers and produce for
them completely changes,especially if they know how to
input their their domainknowledge into it all, and it's
not generic.
SPEAKER_01 (44:27):
So, Steven, we're running low on time.
Um, I want to uh stop here andmaybe we'll bring you back on
and and do a part three or parttwo, yeah, right.
Um, uh I think uh the perfectenvironment for this, guys, is
we are launching a LM visibilitytraining course.
(44:48):
Okay, we're launching an LMvisibility certification.
And you know, this was kind of asneak peek into a mini
mastermind on you know how togrow your agency in the new like
AI era.
Um, and so we'll definitelybring Steven back.
Um, we'll we're gonna talk moreabout the details uh in that
(45:08):
mastermind, in that workshop,because you can't get away from
AI.
Does that make sense?
Like even if we're doing SEO, AISEO, Chat GBT SEO, GEO, LLM
visibility, like AIdiscoverability, whatever you
want to call it.
Okay, like there's a lot ofdifferent names, there's a lot
of different noise.
There's a lot of noise outthere.
(45:30):
You know, I believe LLMvisibility, which I've actually
uh tried to coin the term andand build a framework around
this, okay.
Um this is the future.
Um, and so our LM uh visibilitycertification will be launching
shortly.
Um, bestseo podcast.com is whereit's gonna live temporarily.
(45:51):
Uh LM Visibility Stack Um.com.
We're building that out rightnow.
Um, and you know, until then,uh, because this podcast is
going to be released, um, notimmediately, um, reach out to
Steven.
Steven, uh, what is the best wayto get in touch with you?
Uh, where do you post your work?
(46:13):
Um, you know, just share with uhuh anybody that wants to find
out more.
SPEAKER_02 (46:17):
Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn.
It's the easiest place.
Stephen uh Worley, Steven's withV W-E-R-L-E-Y.
Sure, it's somewhere around inthe notes or whatever wherever.
Um, and then also you can alsouh check out my website, which
is closable.ai.
Uh and you know that has more ofthe tools around actual sales uh
(46:38):
processes and and whatnot, whichis obviously a lot where my
focus is and sales first uhbusinesses and organizations and
how we can use AI in there.
And obviously, because AI is sooverreaching, sometimes we
extend a little bit within.
Um, but that's where we start,where we can make the the most
impact.
SPEAKER_01 (46:57):
So I love that.
All right.
So if you're listening, by thetime this comes out, we should
have everything up and going uhwith with our certification, our
links.
We'll put all Steven's links inthe show notes.
Um I would ask you to leave areview.
Uh, anybody that is listeningand is getting good value out of
(47:17):
this, please leave a review onthe platform you're listening
on.
A lot of people like to leavereviews on our GNB um and that
or Google Business Profile.
Um leave it please on theplatform you're listening on.
That that's super helpful.
Uh we'll we'll be talking moreabout uh entities and and and
how that works, but we want totie everything back and link
(47:40):
everything back to to wherewe're at.
So I I would ask, you know,share share this podcast with
somebody that you think would beuh this would be useful for.
Um and and please leave areview.
And thank you so much for yoursupport.
Um and you know, if you want togrow your business with the
largest, most powerful tool onthe planet, the internet, like
get on it, like jump in and andstart start leveraging it.
(48:05):
It's time, um, and uh leverageit with AI.
I think AI is comparably equalto the launch of the internet.
I I or bigger, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
Um I think it's bigger, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:19):
But but it's on that level, and and I've even seen
projections of AI agent economygrowing by 75%, like the
existing economy size.
Like, so different areas of thecountry are are affected
differently.
Like I talked to a VP ofinnovation that said, I haven't
found any use cases for AI.
That that that's an educationthing.
(48:42):
Um, this is not a fad.
Get on it, guys.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
This is the best SEO podcast.
Bye bye for now.
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