August 7, 2026 • 19 mins
Nicole Angemi and Maria Q. Kane of the true-crime podcast "Mother Knows Death" dig into the Bryan Kohberger Idaho murders case, the subject of Netflix's "The Idaho Murders: College Nightmare." They unpack Kohberger's criminology PhD background, the DNA evidence tied to the knife sheath, the mysterious tuft of hair found in victim Ethan Chapin's hand, his sudden guilty plea, and their own theory about his possible motive — plus why true crime fans can't get enough of stories like this.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Not only have we had great conversations on our show
with Nicole and Maria, but Nicole and Jemmy and Maria
qcine Mother Knows Death, Mom Daughter the most amazing podcast.
Are you guys having fun doing this podcast? You've been
doing it for over two years a year and a half.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Absolutely, We've been doing it since November of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Oh. I have no concept of space or time.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Well, we only been with you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We've been with you for almost our two year anniversaries
coming up all this. I can't believe you're not. You
don't have it marked on your calendar.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
He doesn't even have his own birthday on his calendar.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
No space, Like I said, no, no concept of space
or time.
Speaker 5 (00:41):
That's me. Hey, I know everyone has.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Been excited about our conversation with you today. Let's start
with the Idaho murders. You know, the Idaho murders College Nightmare.
I know that Gandhi saw it. I saw the documentary.
Is there anything you two are bad on and on
with each other about that we can be included in
this conversation, right, go ahead, Ray, I.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Think from the beginning, we've always said, you know, we
thought something deeper was going on behind the scenes. This
guy has too much knowledge of the system and what's
going on, so we are always like, Okay, what is
his angle going to be? Then all of a sudden
last summer he makes this crazy plea deal which we
just absolutely could not believe. And now I think we're
kind of seeing that because last Monday he filed a
petition saying he wants to withdraw his guilty plea, claiming
(01:29):
he was misled by his defense attorneys into pleading guilty.
So I am really interested to see how that's going
to pan out, because as far as we know, I mean,
the deal is done.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So as you all know that, it is a huge,
huge national story for many weeks, still a story. This
coburger guy rolls into a campus home shared by at
that night for students right murders them, allegedly stabbing them
all to death, and we're still trying to figure out why,
(02:00):
like what was his motive?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Do?
Speaker 5 (02:01):
We found out later he.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Was taking a criminal courses at college and he was
questioning people on how they felt as if they.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
Were a victim in a crime.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
And I don't know, he seemed to be so deeply
bought into a crime and committing a crime and getting
away with it. Is that part of what you're thinking
could be the motive behind why he killed these people.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, I mean he was not only just taking criminology classes,
but he was getting a PhD, which is the highest
level of education that you could get in that field,
So he really knew everything about crimes he was. I mean,
he was a PhD student in it, right, So I've
always said this. As soon I don't know if you
(02:47):
guys know this, but as soon as he got arrested,
the very first question he asked was has anyone else
been arrested in relation to this crime? Which I thought
was really interesting. So you could look at that two
different ways, like either number one, he was just trying
to throw people off, or number two, there is another accomplice,
which a lot of people think that there may be,
(03:07):
just because of the amount of killing that it, you know,
the the vigorous actions it took just to kill four
people in that short amount of time, and how even
though they do have some evidence, forensic evidence linking him,
there's also a lot of holes in the story.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
So in your opinions, the two of you, you think
he definitely did it. He was definitely at least part
of the team that did it. There's no chance that
this guy wasn't guilty.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Gandhi have you seen his eyes? I mean, come on.
Speaker 7 (03:41):
Him.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
I was like, he did it.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
But I suck and I'm not a legal expert, you know,
like I don't look at all the evidence.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
I just go based on vibes.
Speaker 6 (03:47):
So I feel like, for you guys having the evidence,
and I know you guys pull autopsies and you look
at all of the you know, like the police records
in the crime reports, you definitely think that this guy
is guilty.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Based on his odd behavior.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I mean, they really did not have much linking him
to the scene beyond the DNA they extracted from the
knights shef left behind. So I feel like they're really
lucky they actually got that because otherwise it was all circumstantial.
So with that said, I mean, I'm pretty convinced he
still did it. We have he has supporters called pro
Burgers that linger in our comments sometimes telling us we
don't know what we're talking about. He's totally pro Burgers. Yes,
(04:26):
that is what they.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah, it's a gross theme too.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
It's just it's really interesting because I think when we
look at everything, even circumstantially, I mean, you could definitely
poke holes in it, and I think in court they
could have proved enough reasonable doubt to possibly get him off.
But at the same time, you have that DNA, which
is pretty hard evidence to have on the scene.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
And on campus filled with students. Why then, you know,
that's another question and we may never get the answers today.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Question.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
No, Well, he seems like he's a little bit of
what they call an in cell, so he could have
been kind of gazing at them from afar.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
They and this is kind of the problem.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
They never were able to concretely say, oh, we found
all these direct messages or this evidence that he was
stalking them. So I know that there was word that
he was possibly visiting that restaurant that one of the
girls worked at, and it does seem like one of
the victims was not only possibly killed first, but also
(05:25):
seemed to be the intended target. But there's that's never
been concrete, And I guess our biggest problem with the
whole thing is if the prosecution had all of this
evidence that they were going to bring him to trial
and then all of a sudden, the guy was like, oh,
I'm going to plead guilty. Why wouldn't you say to him, Okay,
we'll let you do that, but you have to tell
(05:46):
us every single thing that you did, why you did it,
what your motive was, and everything.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
And they didn't, which was so weird. It just was
so weird because.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
They were trying to give him the death penalty, so
they really thought they had something, so they could have
just been like, now you're not pleading guilt. You know,
we're going to make you go through the whole thing.
So it's just bizarre.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Wow, Hey, is there any truth to the rumors we
had heard in the press about one of the victims
had a tuft of hair in their hand that did
not match anyone's DNA that was involved.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So that was one of the things that Brian Coberger
is now trying to say that he wasn't made fully
aware of that. Ethan Chapin he was the only male
victim that he had a tuft of hair in his hand,
and really, as far as what we could see from
the case, it seems like he did have some material
in his hair, but the DNA it said that it
(06:42):
matched an unknown male. But as far as we know,
now that it just did match his DNA, So there's
not this like conspiracy that's someone you know, that he
grabbed someone else's hair.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Or something like that.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
But one possible thing that I do want to put
out there, which is just like this is just a
really out fetch theory, but is it possible that because
he's a criminology student and maybe I feel like he's
trying to do like the ultimate PhD program dissertation, right,
that he's that he's involved with someone else and possibly
planting his evidence so he could plant you know, DNA
(07:18):
evidence and all this other stuff, and then all of
a sudden it comes to the full picture is exposed,
and really it's like he wants to show holes in
the criminal justice system and how innocent people can be
convicted and things like that. I just think, yeah, exactly,
like I don't know, it's just like it's out like
(07:40):
it's totally out there. But I just I just have
always thought since day one that there's more to the story.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
And he's he's very smart and manipulative.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
You know.
Speaker 7 (07:49):
Wait, I want to know why people and I mean
my husband's one of them, are so obsessed with like
crime dramas and all stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
I am too.
Speaker 7 (07:58):
Why do you people look like the why do you
love it so much?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I think because my life isn't really that exciting. I
don't know, you know, you know, it's just like I
think that most I talk about this all the time
because we talk about all the different matters of death,
but a lot of people don't really personally know a
person that was actually murdered or or not really involved
in a case like this, And it's just so interesting
(08:25):
to see the whole process of what that's like for
other people living with that and getting that kind of news,
and it's just so upsetting that it's nothing that we
ever want to go through. So I think learning more
about it might be protective for us in a way, right.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
And that's the sart of me.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, me too. The who done it? Thing goes
way way back to you know, way before we were around.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
But that and the how can I avoid being murdered myself? Like,
there's that exactly things that you know in.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
Some cases, how can I murder?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (08:57):
I think you guys are just trying to figure out
how to get away with it, you.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Know, there's that.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So if you want to watch the documentary yourself on Netflix,
The Idaho.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
Murders College Nightmare. It's it's out, so watch it.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So where else do you want to go? We've got
questions in the room. I have, I have, Okay, of
course you do.
Speaker 8 (09:15):
I'm not a murderer, but if I was, and you
guys would probably know this better than most people.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
What do you think is the best way to get
rid of a body?
Speaker 9 (09:28):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (09:29):
There, go answer seriously because you asked a question. It's
a great question. What's the end?
Speaker 8 (09:34):
You know it breaks down bone and flet like lime.
I've read about that.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Let's go, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
God, I've got I've covered so many different cases in
different scenarios over multiple time periods of people dissolving bodies
and burning bodies.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
I mean, I'll tell you one thing.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Don't don't put a body in a fire and think
that that's going to do the job.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Like, that's what I can tell you, Nate, Nate is
writing that down.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
You know, right.
Speaker 9 (10:04):
Also, don't don't feed into alligators. Alligators do not digest
human bone. They'll they'll spit it up, while boars are
the only animal that will eat it.
Speaker 8 (10:12):
So Nicole, like the fire. Back to the fire, right, Like,
what they just leaves still remnants is their DNA.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Why because a house fire, a lot of people think, oh,
I'll just put the body in the fire and it's
going to it's going to cremate the body, right, I No,
Like house fires don't burn that hot and that fit long.
When you burn a body with cremation, it has to
be thousands of degrees for multiple hours in a row.
So usually when you know a fire happens, the fire
(10:42):
fighters come and put the fire out, and it didn't
burn for that long, and it's not that hot, so
there's going to be a lot of the body left,
sometimes soft tissue if not, but they could still get
DNA from bone marrow and things like that. So you're
not cremating a body in a house fire. It's just
so many people do it all the time.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
The fire needs gets the hint. Yeah, put your.
Speaker 9 (11:05):
Pen down, man, I know, yeah, people want to know
these you need a better accelerant, natter accelerant to get
the fire.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
If only Costco sold these these high degree crematorium oven
this then that that's where you go, right, That's that's
what gets rid of everything you need to get rid
of or can even in a cremated body situation, you
can still get some DNA out of that.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Now, no, typically, I mean sometimes there's bigger bone fragments left.
I don't know if a lot of people think that
if you put a body in a crematorium that it's
going to come out and look like cigarette ashes, and
it doesn't at all. It's very chunky, and they actually
have to put it in this blender type thing to
make it like more even and where what we consider
(11:51):
to be ashes, which is more kind of like gravelly.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
But but typically.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
No, I mean sometimes what's really cool, actually cool for
us is if a person, for example, has like a
hip replacement or a knee replacement, those things won't won't
be burned down.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
In a crematorium.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And it's really cool because some of those things have
serial numbers on it that we could trace back to people.
Speaker 9 (12:19):
Sorry, now, what about what about an aquamation like where
they do like the alkaline hydrolysis thing where they do that,
is that is there still DNA left behind after that?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I would say no, I'm not one hundred percent familiar
with that process, but I would say no, I don't
think so.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
I don't really know, though, honestly, was.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
It a Jeffrey Dahmer thing? Maybe?
Speaker 6 (12:41):
Uh yeah, Gandhi, Okay, So I have a question about
autopsies in general, Nicole. I know that that's like sort
of a thing that you really focus on when an
autopsy is done and then the family requests another one.
Is it compromised because one has already been done? Can
you still get good quality results to doing an autopsy
over and over again?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So that's a really good question because that one's been
in the news lately with the Nolan Wells case.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Is that what you're referring to.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, and there's autopsy's done, second autopsy's done all the time.
So the problem is is that the very first time
that we do it, number one, the body's not really
decomposed at all, or even if it is, it's still
the first look at what we're looking at. So with
Nolan Wells, for example, he was like a fresh body
to look at and do the autopsy the first time.
(13:30):
So really that's when you're going to be able to
see the best evidence of trauma or anything like that
on the external surface of the skin at least anyway,
And once you take all of the organs out, everything Essentially,
when we do an autopsy, we take the organs out
either in blocks like heart and lungs together, or we
take them out one by one. But when we're done
(13:53):
with them, we take them out of the body. We
dissect them there to look at things, and then we
throw them in like a try bag essentially that we
put back in the body and sew it up and
bring send it to the funeral home.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Right now, don't put him back where they belong, you just, yes,
well you can't. You can't put them back where they belong.
That's the thing, that's the problem.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
It's like delivering giblets in the turkey. That's what it is, right,
It's the same thing, all right.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So when they get the autopsy for the second autopsy,
they're now getting the shell of a body with a
bag inside filled with oregons. So although you can take
it out and reconstruct it. So for for Nolan Wells,
for example, they're looking for evidence of trauma. And I
know that they were saying that his neck was missing, right,
So I'm not exactly sure why the first medical Examiner's
(14:47):
office kept the whole neck, the neck block, which would
be like the larynx or the voice box and usually
part of the trachea and the thiroy gland and things
like that.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
But that's where you would look for.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Manual strangulation, and that whole entire area of the neck
was missing, which means that the original person that did
the autopsy kept it aside for some reason, so like
when they're looking at it for the second autopsy, they
can't look at that and really rule out that he
was stranged, like at least manually strangled, because you would
see the hyoid bone in the neck could be broken,
(15:21):
or there could be hemorrhage in the muscle, but technically
there should still be some kind of evidence of that
on the external surface of the neck, so you would
see bruising, you could see like thumb prints sometimes, and
of course if it was done with a ligature, you
could see a ligature mark. Now I believe Nolan Wells
because his autopsy report hasn't been released as of the
(15:42):
second so well it's done, but it hasn't been released
to the public yet. So if he was found in water,
I'm not exactly sure what the condition of his body
would be because he could have been very decomposed and bloated,
which would change the way things look at autopsy.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
Wow. Hey Maria, congratulations on having a child. By the way,
thank you, mama, mama. But which brings me to my question, Maria.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
I mean, having Nicole as your mom and now you're
both partners on the podcast and everything else you're doing.
Were you ever just repulsed by everything your mother was
fascinated by? And do you want to raise a kid
in your house to be understanding at the foundation, it's science,
is what it is science, And of course going off
(16:29):
into something a little more focused on autopsies and death
and organs and all of this, I.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Think that having the knowledge sometimes is really great because
you you know, it's about not having a fear of death,
because you have to understand that it's inevitable and it's
going to happen. So just trying to live your life
understanding that it happens to everybody and making the best
of it. But with that same breath, I want to say,
childhood was a little tortuous for me because.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Talk about it.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
I had a teenage mom obviously, so we had a
unique situation. And when she was going to college sometimes
she couldn't get a babysitter, and I had to go
to college with her, so I saw a lot of
stuff that maybe I didn't want to see. And then
when I was fifteen, I was too young to get
a job in the state of New Jersey so at
that time, so she was like, You're coming to the
hospital to intern with me this summer, And boy was that.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Horrible for me.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
So first day, she lifts a placenta out of a
bucket and goes, look at this, and I wanted to
pass out. Every day I felt like I was gonna faint.
Finally she let me start doing work in her office
a little bit, and then eventually I was able to
wiggle my way out of that internship because I just
hated every second of it.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
But talking about it versus touching it two different things, right, Oh?
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I mean even I could on our podcast and on
the radio talk about the most gruesome stories. But even
when she's doing a lecture and she's showing pictures of
these gruesome things, I feel like I'm going to pass out.
At crime Con when she does her lecture, I set
her up, I make sure she's good. I go in
for a couple of minutes, take pictures, and I walk
out and walk around the convention, I can't indle it,
even though I put the power points together.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Wow, you know what, hanging out with you Nicole and
you Maria every single time is just so fascinating.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
I don't want to wrap up.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And even though Nate's telling me to wrap up, one
more circle around the room, who wants to bring something up?
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Who has something to still.
Speaker 8 (18:19):
Haven't got an answer the best way to dispose of
a body?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Because you.
Speaker 7 (18:24):
Know when you see it in like a show where
they put you in like the ice chest and they're
like they pour like that chemical on you that melts
your body?
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Does that work?
Speaker 6 (18:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (18:32):
Yeah, like that that whole breaking bad thing where they
were using.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
The Yeah, that acid does that work?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
There was actually just recently a case of a terrible
child abuse case of some parents that put their child
in some kind of I don't know exactly what it was,
but some kind of a chemical that but it didn't
break down our body one hundred percent. But they were
able to tell. So number one, yes, they were able
to identify, and number two, they were able to tell
(19:01):
that the parents tried to disintegrate her bones was some
kind of a chemical.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Sorry, Nate, Yeah, all right, yeah, thanks for bringing it.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
Off though we need to know these things, do we.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
All Right, Well, there you go, Nicole, Jimmy and of
course Jimmy and Maria Cucine.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
Thank you so much for being on with us and sharing.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
All the fun uh and of course the podcast Mother
Knows Death. Wherever you get your podcast, especially at the
iHeart Network, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
Thank you, Nicole, Thank you,
Not only have we had great conversations on our show
with Nicole and Maria, but Nicole and Jemmy and Maria
qcine Mother Knows Death, Mom Daughter the most amazing podcast.
Are you guys having fun doing this podcast? You've been
doing it for over two years a year and a half.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Absolutely, We've been doing it since November of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Oh. I have no concept of space or time.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Well, we only been with you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We've been with you for almost our two year anniversaries
coming up all this. I can't believe you're not. You
don't have it marked on your calendar.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
He doesn't even have his own birthday on his calendar.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
No space, Like I said, no, no concept of space
or time.
Speaker 5 (00:41):
That's me. Hey, I know everyone has.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Been excited about our conversation with you today. Let's start
with the Idaho murders. You know, the Idaho murders College Nightmare.
I know that Gandhi saw it. I saw the documentary.
Is there anything you two are bad on and on
with each other about that we can be included in
this conversation, right, go ahead, Ray, I.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Think from the beginning, we've always said, you know, we
thought something deeper was going on behind the scenes. This
guy has too much knowledge of the system and what's
going on, so we are always like, Okay, what is
his angle going to be? Then all of a sudden
last summer he makes this crazy plea deal which we
just absolutely could not believe. And now I think we're
kind of seeing that because last Monday he filed a
petition saying he wants to withdraw his guilty plea, claiming
(01:29):
he was misled by his defense attorneys into pleading guilty.
So I am really interested to see how that's going
to pan out, because as far as we know, I mean,
the deal is done.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So as you all know that, it is a huge,
huge national story for many weeks, still a story. This
coburger guy rolls into a campus home shared by at
that night for students right murders them, allegedly stabbing them
all to death, and we're still trying to figure out why,
(02:00):
like what was his motive?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Do?
Speaker 5 (02:01):
We found out later he.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Was taking a criminal courses at college and he was
questioning people on how they felt as if they.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
Were a victim in a crime.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
And I don't know, he seemed to be so deeply
bought into a crime and committing a crime and getting
away with it. Is that part of what you're thinking
could be the motive behind why he killed these people.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, I mean he was not only just taking criminology classes,
but he was getting a PhD, which is the highest
level of education that you could get in that field,
So he really knew everything about crimes he was. I mean,
he was a PhD student in it, right, So I've
always said this. As soon I don't know if you
(02:47):
guys know this, but as soon as he got arrested,
the very first question he asked was has anyone else
been arrested in relation to this crime? Which I thought
was really interesting. So you could look at that two
different ways, like either number one, he was just trying
to throw people off, or number two, there is another accomplice,
which a lot of people think that there may be,
(03:07):
just because of the amount of killing that it, you know,
the the vigorous actions it took just to kill four
people in that short amount of time, and how even
though they do have some evidence, forensic evidence linking him,
there's also a lot of holes in the story.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
So in your opinions, the two of you, you think
he definitely did it. He was definitely at least part
of the team that did it. There's no chance that
this guy wasn't guilty.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Gandhi have you seen his eyes? I mean, come on.
Speaker 7 (03:41):
Him.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
I was like, he did it.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
But I suck and I'm not a legal expert, you know,
like I don't look at all the evidence.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
I just go based on vibes.
Speaker 6 (03:47):
So I feel like, for you guys having the evidence,
and I know you guys pull autopsies and you look
at all of the you know, like the police records
in the crime reports, you definitely think that this guy
is guilty.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Based on his odd behavior.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I mean, they really did not have much linking him
to the scene beyond the DNA they extracted from the
knights shef left behind. So I feel like they're really
lucky they actually got that because otherwise it was all circumstantial.
So with that said, I mean, I'm pretty convinced he
still did it. We have he has supporters called pro
Burgers that linger in our comments sometimes telling us we
don't know what we're talking about. He's totally pro Burgers. Yes,
(04:26):
that is what they.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah, it's a gross theme too.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
It's just it's really interesting because I think when we
look at everything, even circumstantially, I mean, you could definitely
poke holes in it, and I think in court they
could have proved enough reasonable doubt to possibly get him off.
But at the same time, you have that DNA, which
is pretty hard evidence to have on the scene.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
And on campus filled with students. Why then, you know,
that's another question and we may never get the answers today.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Question.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
No, Well, he seems like he's a little bit of
what they call an in cell, so he could have
been kind of gazing at them from afar.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
They and this is kind of the problem.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
They never were able to concretely say, oh, we found
all these direct messages or this evidence that he was
stalking them. So I know that there was word that
he was possibly visiting that restaurant that one of the
girls worked at, and it does seem like one of
the victims was not only possibly killed first, but also
(05:25):
seemed to be the intended target. But there's that's never
been concrete, And I guess our biggest problem with the
whole thing is if the prosecution had all of this
evidence that they were going to bring him to trial
and then all of a sudden, the guy was like, oh,
I'm going to plead guilty. Why wouldn't you say to him, Okay,
we'll let you do that, but you have to tell
(05:46):
us every single thing that you did, why you did it,
what your motive was, and everything.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
And they didn't, which was so weird. It just was
so weird because.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
They were trying to give him the death penalty, so
they really thought they had something, so they could have
just been like, now you're not pleading guilt. You know,
we're going to make you go through the whole thing.
So it's just bizarre.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Wow, Hey, is there any truth to the rumors we
had heard in the press about one of the victims
had a tuft of hair in their hand that did
not match anyone's DNA that was involved.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So that was one of the things that Brian Coberger
is now trying to say that he wasn't made fully
aware of that. Ethan Chapin he was the only male
victim that he had a tuft of hair in his hand,
and really, as far as what we could see from
the case, it seems like he did have some material
in his hair, but the DNA it said that it
(06:42):
matched an unknown male. But as far as we know,
now that it just did match his DNA, So there's
not this like conspiracy that's someone you know, that he
grabbed someone else's hair.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Or something like that.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
But one possible thing that I do want to put
out there, which is just like this is just a
really out fetch theory, but is it possible that because
he's a criminology student and maybe I feel like he's
trying to do like the ultimate PhD program dissertation, right,
that he's that he's involved with someone else and possibly
planting his evidence so he could plant you know, DNA
(07:18):
evidence and all this other stuff, and then all of
a sudden it comes to the full picture is exposed,
and really it's like he wants to show holes in
the criminal justice system and how innocent people can be
convicted and things like that. I just think, yeah, exactly,
like I don't know, it's just like it's out like
(07:40):
it's totally out there. But I just I just have
always thought since day one that there's more to the story.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
And he's he's very smart and manipulative.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
You know.
Speaker 7 (07:49):
Wait, I want to know why people and I mean
my husband's one of them, are so obsessed with like
crime dramas and all stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
I am too.
Speaker 7 (07:58):
Why do you people look like the why do you
love it so much?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I think because my life isn't really that exciting. I
don't know, you know, you know, it's just like I
think that most I talk about this all the time
because we talk about all the different matters of death,
but a lot of people don't really personally know a
person that was actually murdered or or not really involved
in a case like this, And it's just so interesting
(08:25):
to see the whole process of what that's like for
other people living with that and getting that kind of news,
and it's just so upsetting that it's nothing that we
ever want to go through. So I think learning more
about it might be protective for us in a way, right.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
And that's the sart of me.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, me too. The who done it? Thing goes
way way back to you know, way before we were around.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
But that and the how can I avoid being murdered myself? Like,
there's that exactly things that you know in.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
Some cases, how can I murder?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (08:57):
I think you guys are just trying to figure out
how to get away with it, you.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Know, there's that.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So if you want to watch the documentary yourself on Netflix,
The Idaho.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
Murders College Nightmare. It's it's out, so watch it.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So where else do you want to go? We've got
questions in the room. I have, I have, Okay, of
course you do.
Speaker 8 (09:15):
I'm not a murderer, but if I was, and you
guys would probably know this better than most people.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
What do you think is the best way to get
rid of a body?
Speaker 9 (09:28):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (09:29):
There, go answer seriously because you asked a question. It's
a great question. What's the end?
Speaker 8 (09:34):
You know it breaks down bone and flet like lime.
I've read about that.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Let's go, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
God, I've got I've covered so many different cases in
different scenarios over multiple time periods of people dissolving bodies
and burning bodies.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
I mean, I'll tell you one thing.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Don't don't put a body in a fire and think
that that's going to do the job.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Like, that's what I can tell you, Nate, Nate is
writing that down.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
You know, right.
Speaker 9 (10:04):
Also, don't don't feed into alligators. Alligators do not digest
human bone. They'll they'll spit it up, while boars are
the only animal that will eat it.
Speaker 8 (10:12):
So Nicole, like the fire. Back to the fire, right, Like,
what they just leaves still remnants is their DNA.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Why because a house fire, a lot of people think, oh,
I'll just put the body in the fire and it's
going to it's going to cremate the body, right, I No,
Like house fires don't burn that hot and that fit long.
When you burn a body with cremation, it has to
be thousands of degrees for multiple hours in a row.
So usually when you know a fire happens, the fire
(10:42):
fighters come and put the fire out, and it didn't
burn for that long, and it's not that hot, so
there's going to be a lot of the body left,
sometimes soft tissue if not, but they could still get
DNA from bone marrow and things like that. So you're
not cremating a body in a house fire. It's just
so many people do it all the time.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
The fire needs gets the hint. Yeah, put your.
Speaker 9 (11:05):
Pen down, man, I know, yeah, people want to know
these you need a better accelerant, natter accelerant to get
the fire.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
If only Costco sold these these high degree crematorium oven
this then that that's where you go, right, That's that's
what gets rid of everything you need to get rid
of or can even in a cremated body situation, you
can still get some DNA out of that.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Now, no, typically, I mean sometimes there's bigger bone fragments left.
I don't know if a lot of people think that
if you put a body in a crematorium that it's
going to come out and look like cigarette ashes, and
it doesn't at all. It's very chunky, and they actually
have to put it in this blender type thing to
make it like more even and where what we consider
(11:51):
to be ashes, which is more kind of like gravelly.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
But but typically.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
No, I mean sometimes what's really cool, actually cool for
us is if a person, for example, has like a
hip replacement or a knee replacement, those things won't won't
be burned down.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
In a crematorium.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And it's really cool because some of those things have
serial numbers on it that we could trace back to people.
Speaker 9 (12:19):
Sorry, now, what about what about an aquamation like where
they do like the alkaline hydrolysis thing where they do that,
is that is there still DNA left behind after that?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I would say no, I'm not one hundred percent familiar
with that process, but I would say no, I don't
think so.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
I don't really know, though, honestly, was.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
It a Jeffrey Dahmer thing? Maybe?
Speaker 6 (12:41):
Uh yeah, Gandhi, Okay, So I have a question about
autopsies in general, Nicole. I know that that's like sort
of a thing that you really focus on when an
autopsy is done and then the family requests another one.
Is it compromised because one has already been done? Can
you still get good quality results to doing an autopsy
over and over again?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So that's a really good question because that one's been
in the news lately with the Nolan Wells case.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Is that what you're referring to.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, and there's autopsy's done, second autopsy's done all the time.
So the problem is is that the very first time
that we do it, number one, the body's not really
decomposed at all, or even if it is, it's still
the first look at what we're looking at. So with
Nolan Wells, for example, he was like a fresh body
to look at and do the autopsy the first time.
(13:30):
So really that's when you're going to be able to
see the best evidence of trauma or anything like that
on the external surface of the skin at least anyway,
And once you take all of the organs out, everything Essentially,
when we do an autopsy, we take the organs out
either in blocks like heart and lungs together, or we
take them out one by one. But when we're done
(13:53):
with them, we take them out of the body. We
dissect them there to look at things, and then we
throw them in like a try bag essentially that we
put back in the body and sew it up and
bring send it to the funeral home.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Right now, don't put him back where they belong, you just, yes,
well you can't. You can't put them back where they belong.
That's the thing, that's the problem.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
It's like delivering giblets in the turkey. That's what it is, right,
It's the same thing, all right.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So when they get the autopsy for the second autopsy,
they're now getting the shell of a body with a
bag inside filled with oregons. So although you can take
it out and reconstruct it. So for for Nolan Wells,
for example, they're looking for evidence of trauma. And I
know that they were saying that his neck was missing, right,
So I'm not exactly sure why the first medical Examiner's
(14:47):
office kept the whole neck, the neck block, which would
be like the larynx or the voice box and usually
part of the trachea and the thiroy gland and things
like that.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
But that's where you would look for.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Manual strangulation, and that whole entire area of the neck
was missing, which means that the original person that did
the autopsy kept it aside for some reason, so like
when they're looking at it for the second autopsy, they
can't look at that and really rule out that he
was stranged, like at least manually strangled, because you would
see the hyoid bone in the neck could be broken,
(15:21):
or there could be hemorrhage in the muscle, but technically
there should still be some kind of evidence of that
on the external surface of the neck, so you would
see bruising, you could see like thumb prints sometimes, and
of course if it was done with a ligature, you
could see a ligature mark. Now I believe Nolan Wells
because his autopsy report hasn't been released as of the
(15:42):
second so well it's done, but it hasn't been released
to the public yet. So if he was found in water,
I'm not exactly sure what the condition of his body
would be because he could have been very decomposed and bloated,
which would change the way things look at autopsy.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
Wow. Hey Maria, congratulations on having a child. By the way,
thank you, mama, mama. But which brings me to my question, Maria.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
I mean, having Nicole as your mom and now you're
both partners on the podcast and everything else you're doing.
Were you ever just repulsed by everything your mother was
fascinated by? And do you want to raise a kid
in your house to be understanding at the foundation, it's science,
is what it is science, And of course going off
(16:29):
into something a little more focused on autopsies and death
and organs and all of this, I.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Think that having the knowledge sometimes is really great because
you you know, it's about not having a fear of death,
because you have to understand that it's inevitable and it's
going to happen. So just trying to live your life
understanding that it happens to everybody and making the best
of it. But with that same breath, I want to say,
childhood was a little tortuous for me because.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Talk about it.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
I had a teenage mom obviously, so we had a
unique situation. And when she was going to college sometimes
she couldn't get a babysitter, and I had to go
to college with her, so I saw a lot of
stuff that maybe I didn't want to see. And then
when I was fifteen, I was too young to get
a job in the state of New Jersey so at
that time, so she was like, You're coming to the
hospital to intern with me this summer, And boy was that.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Horrible for me.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
So first day, she lifts a placenta out of a
bucket and goes, look at this, and I wanted to
pass out. Every day I felt like I was gonna faint.
Finally she let me start doing work in her office
a little bit, and then eventually I was able to
wiggle my way out of that internship because I just
hated every second of it.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
But talking about it versus touching it two different things, right, Oh?
Speaker 4 (17:45):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I mean even I could on our podcast and on
the radio talk about the most gruesome stories. But even
when she's doing a lecture and she's showing pictures of
these gruesome things, I feel like I'm going to pass out.
At crime Con when she does her lecture, I set
her up, I make sure she's good. I go in
for a couple of minutes, take pictures, and I walk
out and walk around the convention, I can't indle it,
even though I put the power points together.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Wow, you know what, hanging out with you Nicole and
you Maria every single time is just so fascinating.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
I don't want to wrap up.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And even though Nate's telling me to wrap up, one
more circle around the room, who wants to bring something up?
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Who has something to still.
Speaker 8 (18:19):
Haven't got an answer the best way to dispose of
a body?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Because you.
Speaker 7 (18:24):
Know when you see it in like a show where
they put you in like the ice chest and they're
like they pour like that chemical on you that melts
your body?
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Does that work?
Speaker 6 (18:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (18:32):
Yeah, like that that whole breaking bad thing where they
were using.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
The Yeah, that acid does that work?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
There was actually just recently a case of a terrible
child abuse case of some parents that put their child
in some kind of I don't know exactly what it was,
but some kind of a chemical that but it didn't
break down our body one hundred percent. But they were
able to tell. So number one, yes, they were able
to identify, and number two, they were able to tell
(19:01):
that the parents tried to disintegrate her bones was some
kind of a chemical.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Sorry, Nate, Yeah, all right, yeah, thanks for bringing it.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
Off though we need to know these things, do we.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
All Right, Well, there you go, Nicole, Jimmy and of
course Jimmy and Maria Cucine.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
Thank you so much for being on with us and sharing.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
All the fun uh and of course the podcast Mother
Knows Death. Wherever you get your podcast, especially at the
iHeart Network, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
Thank you, Nicole, Thank you,
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