January 15, 2025 • 12 mins
The Green Party had a rough time in 2024, dealing with their fair share of scandals and tragedies.
From Darleen Tana’s dramatic exit and Golriz Ghahraman’s shoplifting scandal, to the death of Efeso Collins and Marama Davidson’s cancer diagnosis.
Co-Leader Chlöe Swarbrick told Tim Beveridge that it’s been tough.
“I do spend a lot of time reflecting on the actions that I take, and whether I’m the best person to be doing this job,” she said.
“I can tell you that I feel confident that we’ve done the best that we possibly could with those circumstances, with our values being the guiding star.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Look, it's been a big year for the Green Party.
Last year they dealt with Goras Garriman's shoplifting scandal, Darlene
Tana's dramatic exit, as well as Madame and Davidson's cancer,
and Green Party co leaders Chloe Swarbrick has while she's
had to face it all, and she joins me, now,
good morning Golda.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
How you doing.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm pretty good. Look, let's get the gritty stuff out
of the way. You've had a few You've been punching
above you weight with the scandals this year, from Goleriz
to Darlene. How are you feeling looking back at twenty
twenty four.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I think it's really important first and foremost to kind
of separate some of the tragedy and grief that we've
been faced with with some of those other challenges that
you rightly mentioned. You know, Look, we lost a friend
and colleague in the form of funafs or Collins, which
obviously was a hugely grief stricken time. And I think
you saw from the acknowledgment of the manner of that
(01:07):
man across the parliamentaryle. What a huge loss he was
to our parliament. Also obviously with Madame and Davidson's cancer diagnosis,
so that's been pretty tough. And then on of that,
as you say, we have had, for lack of a
better term, those kind of scandals that we've had to
confront and I think you know, hand on heart, and
(01:27):
I do spend a lot of time reflecting on the
actions that I take and whether I'm the best person
to be doing this job and you know how I'm
navigating it. And I don't just do that alone with
these thoughts kind of knocking around my head in the
dead of night, but also talk to a lot of
people who I admire own trust, which includes people who've
been in this institution in the past and those who
are so far removed from it that I think they
(01:48):
have a very valuable perspective. I can tell you that
I feel confident that we've done the best that we
possibly could with those circumstances, with our values as our
guiding star. And it was also really critically important to
me that throughout those processes and when those things were live,
issues that were playing out before the cameras and before
the public, the public deserved full accountability, and certainly upon
(02:10):
that we were fully transparent with every piece of information
that we could be as soon as we had it.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I don't think actually anyone, evenyone would question your you know,
the personal way you try and handle things with as
much integrity as possible. Given that, would it be useful
for the Greens at times for you to have a
little bit more power, to be able to take decisions
without having to go back and forth to the party membership,
because that did seem to drag things out a bit.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question, and I think kind
of goes to the heart of what we expect of
our political parties and how we make better decisions inside
of our political institutions. So I guessed to kind of
oversimplify everything for sake of making the point and teasing
it out. You kind of have an option between a
more kind of collective decision making approach or a more
(02:58):
kind of top down, sometimes interpret as authoritarian or captain's
call type of approach. The Greens have always really prided
ourselves on being a kind of ecosystem. Everybody who does
have a very strongly held opinion whether that be based
on their personal experience or their values or whatever else
is able to air that out, which I think means
that we come to a far more robust and sustainable
(03:21):
decision in the long run, which ultimately even those who
might have potentially initially disagreed can at least live with
because they have played a part in that decision making.
And I think that that's where if you reflect on
the kind of twenty five years that the Green Party
has been in parliaments, the parliamentary wing of this far
bigger kind of activist movement for a system that looks
(03:43):
after people and planet, you can see that we've actually
had quite a lot more stability in terms of particularly
kind of our leadership and the way that they have
interacted with our party than you see, and I think
particularly in those legacy political parties.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, madamous cancer, how have you personally handled going through
that for us?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Mate? I think you know, many New Zealanders have direct
experience of somebody in their life, yeah, being hat with cancer,
and yeah, it was also something which I just I
do need to acknowledge the passing of the honorable Nicky Kay.
She was an incredible, incredible human being who I think
really set the bar for what it was to be
(04:24):
an electric MP. And yeah, when she actually also helped
me connect with different people in my life who had
been a particularly woman experiencing breast cancer. So she just
she just did so much. In terms of where Martama
is at, I'm not in a position to kind of
announce where prognosis or anything like that, but yeah, she's
(04:45):
a cider, and yeah, we're looking forward to welcoming her back,
and the team has really intentionally been holding that space
for her, and I haven't been doing this alone. You know,
the privilege of my position is that I know that
I don't do it alone. And the way that we
kind of make decisions, which we just touched upon in
the Green Party, means that, you know, when I look
around my caucus table, I see a group of MPs
(05:08):
and party representatives who every single day are making decisions
for the greater Gurbon, not on behalf of anyone's ego
or otherwise. So, yeah, we've been holding that space from
r and we're really looking forward to having your back.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Actually, now that you've mentioned Nicky Kay as well, and
I think it's these moments that remind us that there's
a lot more that connects us than divides us. Absolutely
on that and it's maybe a mischievous question, could you
ever look at a coalition with Matt National on some basis.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I'd point out that there has been plenty of instances
where we have actually worked across the aisle, including I
can point to myself and Finance and Expenditure Committee just
last term actually working across the aisle with Nikola Willison,
trying to bring about some kind of more transparency and
accountability to the way that, for example, the Reserve Bank
was making forecasts around house prices, but also you know,
(06:01):
trying to rightfully put the pressure on albeit from kind
of probably quite different perspectives, our then Ministry of Finance
le Grant Robertson. We've also seen that obviously James worked
really hard across the aisle to bring that cross partisan
consensus on likes of the Zero Carbon Act. So there's
been plenty of instances where we have found those commonalities.
But in terms of you know, the hypothetical question of
(06:23):
the future in which we may potentially form a coalition,
otherwise there's a lot of water yet to go under
that bridge. You know, friends don't let friends knowingly kind
of produce policies that are going to increase emissions, which
you know, only makes the existential problem of climate change worse.
Friends don't let friends knowingly increase in equality when we
already have a system that sees the top three hundred
(06:44):
and eleven households sold more wealth in the bottom two
and a half a million new Zealanders. Friends don't let
friends put more new Zealanders out in the cold, making
them homeless.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I guess. But friends can't dictate everything to friends though
in a coalition as we see.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, absolutely, And I think again that this is where
it really comes back to, what is that potential alignment
that you may see on our policies, And you know,
I think that people will see, especially with the alternative
emissions reduction plan that the Greens have put out, that
we have a really concrete vision for an economy that
exploits people on the planet instead of exhausting both. And
(07:19):
I don't want to lose sight here of the bigger point,
which is that when I became the Green Party co leader,
we made a very very explicit and clear point that
we intend to be the largest political party on the left,
and that means continuing to put these concrete solutions for it,
and galvanizing the people to see that this change is
(07:39):
entirely within our grasp as regular people realize their power.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Chloe, are the Greens a slightly different party under your leadership?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I think so. What you can see in the way
that I do things is that I am I mean, seriously,
I'd say that the way that I approach politics is
that I am really really keen to have a yarn,
especially with those who think that they are vehemently opposed
to me, because I actually really hold true to that
principle that you spoke about before, which is that I
hold a very very strong view but most New Zealanders
(08:09):
actually really do care about each other and the planet
that we live on. But as a result of whether
it be the fast paced lifestyles that we operate in,
or the way that politicians have divided us, or whatever else,
that there is kind of, you know, at a surface level,
the sense of individuation or competition or division between us.
But if we spend the time to build those relationships
(08:30):
and to build that trust, then we are in a
far more constructive place to move forward. So the approach
that I'm taking is probably pretty well summed up. And
one of the speeches that I gave at our AGM
in the middle of twenty twenty four, which was about
how it's not enough to be right if we are
left clinging to our mountains of evidence when the last
(08:51):
three is cut down, and in fact, if all we're
focused on is being right, then we need to get
a grip and get over ourselves. You actually need to
build relationships with and build trust with people who are
going to be impacted by the policies that you are
proportioning will improve their lives, so that where I've done
some working, for example, going out and actually meeting directly
(09:11):
with coal miners on the west coast of the South Island,
where I've been meeting also directly with farmers who have
been hit the first and worst way client change charge
were the events yet building those alliances that people wouldn't
necessarily expect.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I guess when you talked about being the largest party
on the left, and so I might argue that that
position is going to be reached by you focusing more
on green issues and the socioeconomic issues, which it's a
question of opinion, but I would say you are further
left than your and your friends and labor. It shouldn't
shouldn't you be focusing more on the green issues. I
(09:45):
know that's a question you get asked all the time.
Let's you know, New Year.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I'm really really glad because I'm really really glad that
you asked it, Actually, because I think it's important for
people to understand what the Green Party is because our
story hasn't been partic ciculated out there in the you know,
in a way that most people have heard it. So
Green parties all across the world actually have the same
core charter, Prince. What differentiates the Green Party in altered
(10:10):
or in New Zealand as a commitment to test to
your way thing is our found and constitutional document. But
from that our four core principles flow. The first is
ecological wisdom recognition, the fact that resources are finite, even
resources that do regenerate need time and space and planning
in order to regenerate. That's a pretty basic scientific kind
of parameter to the world as we know. It's a
(10:31):
hopefully pretty common sense to people. The next one makes
a whole lot of sense if you accept that first premise,
and that is social responsibility. Basically, if we're saying that
these resources are somewhat finite, we need to ensure that
they are shared fairly so that everybody has an opportunity
to participate in our society, to not just survive, but
to actually thrive, to flourish. The food is appropriate decision making,
(10:52):
which goes to the points that we've been discussing around
how we make decisions in a sustainable, long term way
that bring people along with us. It's why we're also
massive nerds and supporters of local government. And the fourth
is a non violence. Of course, you know, if we're
happy is we don't like going to war. But I
think more and also than that, it's about how do
you create these systems which don't neglect people and their experiences.
(11:14):
So further down the track they say, hey, this doesn't
work for me. So how that answers your question is
actually something that Jeanette sit Simon said when she was,
you know, the founding co leader of the party alongside
Rod Donald. We have economy that currently exploits people and
the planet. So the issues that people are feeling in
their daily lives, feeling usly exhausted by the insatiable, unsustainable
(11:37):
demands of the current rules of the economy, which are
totally man made, is the same economic system which is
exploiting and exhausting our natural world. And what we say
is the greens is that it does not have to
be that way. We can change these rules, and actually
we've done it in the past, and the nineteen thirties
and forties, confronted with world wars and the Great Depression,
(11:58):
we decided as a country that we would respond by
creating the welfare state, by creating public health care and
education and housing and welfare that ensured that everybody was
able to participate in society. We paid for it by
higher taxes on those who had profited during a time
the pard shit. For many forty years thereafter, that safety
(12:19):
net has been shredded, and we're living with the consequences
of that today. And the form of the greatest rates
of wealth and equality that we've seen on record doesn't
have to be that way.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Great stuff. Gosh, we could talk for ages, but unfortunately, yeah,
we've got to stay goodbye. Hey, you have a wonderful
twenty twenty five Chloe, and all the best of you
and your colleagues.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
New talks very much, mate, time Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
News Talks THEREBS twenty three and a half past eight.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
For more from News Talks, ab listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Look, it's been a big year for the Green Party.
Last year they dealt with Goras Garriman's shoplifting scandal, Darlene
Tana's dramatic exit, as well as Madame and Davidson's cancer,
and Green Party co leaders Chloe Swarbrick has while she's
had to face it all, and she joins me, now,
good morning Golda.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
How you doing.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm pretty good. Look, let's get the gritty stuff out
of the way. You've had a few You've been punching
above you weight with the scandals this year, from Goleriz
to Darlene. How are you feeling looking back at twenty
twenty four.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I think it's really important first and foremost to kind
of separate some of the tragedy and grief that we've
been faced with with some of those other challenges that
you rightly mentioned. You know, Look, we lost a friend
and colleague in the form of funafs or Collins, which
obviously was a hugely grief stricken time. And I think
you saw from the acknowledgment of the manner of that
(01:07):
man across the parliamentaryle. What a huge loss he was
to our parliament. Also obviously with Madame and Davidson's cancer diagnosis,
so that's been pretty tough. And then on of that,
as you say, we have had, for lack of a
better term, those kind of scandals that we've had to
confront and I think you know, hand on heart, and
(01:27):
I do spend a lot of time reflecting on the
actions that I take and whether I'm the best person
to be doing this job and you know how I'm
navigating it. And I don't just do that alone with
these thoughts kind of knocking around my head in the
dead of night, but also talk to a lot of
people who I admire own trust, which includes people who've
been in this institution in the past and those who
are so far removed from it that I think they
(01:48):
have a very valuable perspective. I can tell you that
I feel confident that we've done the best that we
possibly could with those circumstances, with our values as our
guiding star. And it was also really critically important to
me that throughout those processes and when those things were live,
issues that were playing out before the cameras and before
the public, the public deserved full accountability, and certainly upon
(02:10):
that we were fully transparent with every piece of information
that we could be as soon as we had it.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I don't think actually anyone, evenyone would question your you know,
the personal way you try and handle things with as
much integrity as possible. Given that, would it be useful
for the Greens at times for you to have a
little bit more power, to be able to take decisions
without having to go back and forth to the party membership,
because that did seem to drag things out a bit.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question, and I think kind
of goes to the heart of what we expect of
our political parties and how we make better decisions inside
of our political institutions. So I guessed to kind of
oversimplify everything for sake of making the point and teasing
it out. You kind of have an option between a
more kind of collective decision making approach or a more
(02:58):
kind of top down, sometimes interpret as authoritarian or captain's
call type of approach. The Greens have always really prided
ourselves on being a kind of ecosystem. Everybody who does
have a very strongly held opinion whether that be based
on their personal experience or their values or whatever else
is able to air that out, which I think means
that we come to a far more robust and sustainable
(03:21):
decision in the long run, which ultimately even those who
might have potentially initially disagreed can at least live with
because they have played a part in that decision making.
And I think that that's where if you reflect on
the kind of twenty five years that the Green Party
has been in parliaments, the parliamentary wing of this far
bigger kind of activist movement for a system that looks
(03:43):
after people and planet, you can see that we've actually
had quite a lot more stability in terms of particularly
kind of our leadership and the way that they have
interacted with our party than you see, and I think
particularly in those legacy political parties.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, madamous cancer, how have you personally handled going through
that for us?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Mate? I think you know, many New Zealanders have direct
experience of somebody in their life, yeah, being hat with cancer,
and yeah, it was also something which I just I
do need to acknowledge the passing of the honorable Nicky Kay.
She was an incredible, incredible human being who I think
really set the bar for what it was to be
(04:24):
an electric MP. And yeah, when she actually also helped
me connect with different people in my life who had
been a particularly woman experiencing breast cancer. So she just
she just did so much. In terms of where Martama
is at, I'm not in a position to kind of
announce where prognosis or anything like that, but yeah, she's
(04:45):
a cider, and yeah, we're looking forward to welcoming her back,
and the team has really intentionally been holding that space
for her, and I haven't been doing this alone. You know,
the privilege of my position is that I know that
I don't do it alone. And the way that we
kind of make decisions, which we just touched upon in
the Green Party, means that, you know, when I look
around my caucus table, I see a group of MPs
(05:08):
and party representatives who every single day are making decisions
for the greater Gurbon, not on behalf of anyone's ego
or otherwise. So, yeah, we've been holding that space from
r and we're really looking forward to having your back.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Actually, now that you've mentioned Nicky Kay as well, and
I think it's these moments that remind us that there's
a lot more that connects us than divides us. Absolutely
on that and it's maybe a mischievous question, could you
ever look at a coalition with Matt National on some basis.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I'd point out that there has been plenty of instances
where we have actually worked across the aisle, including I
can point to myself and Finance and Expenditure Committee just
last term actually working across the aisle with Nikola Willison,
trying to bring about some kind of more transparency and
accountability to the way that, for example, the Reserve Bank
was making forecasts around house prices, but also you know,
(06:01):
trying to rightfully put the pressure on albeit from kind
of probably quite different perspectives, our then Ministry of Finance
le Grant Robertson. We've also seen that obviously James worked
really hard across the aisle to bring that cross partisan
consensus on likes of the Zero Carbon Act. So there's
been plenty of instances where we have found those commonalities.
But in terms of you know, the hypothetical question of
(06:23):
the future in which we may potentially form a coalition,
otherwise there's a lot of water yet to go under
that bridge. You know, friends don't let friends knowingly kind
of produce policies that are going to increase emissions, which
you know, only makes the existential problem of climate change worse.
Friends don't let friends knowingly increase in equality when we
already have a system that sees the top three hundred
(06:44):
and eleven households sold more wealth in the bottom two
and a half a million new Zealanders. Friends don't let
friends put more new Zealanders out in the cold, making
them homeless.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I guess. But friends can't dictate everything to friends though
in a coalition as we see.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, absolutely, And I think again that this is where
it really comes back to, what is that potential alignment
that you may see on our policies, And you know,
I think that people will see, especially with the alternative
emissions reduction plan that the Greens have put out, that
we have a really concrete vision for an economy that
exploits people on the planet instead of exhausting both. And
(07:19):
I don't want to lose sight here of the bigger point,
which is that when I became the Green Party co leader,
we made a very very explicit and clear point that
we intend to be the largest political party on the left,
and that means continuing to put these concrete solutions for it,
and galvanizing the people to see that this change is
(07:39):
entirely within our grasp as regular people realize their power.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Chloe, are the Greens a slightly different party under your leadership?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I think so. What you can see in the way
that I do things is that I am I mean, seriously,
I'd say that the way that I approach politics is
that I am really really keen to have a yarn,
especially with those who think that they are vehemently opposed
to me, because I actually really hold true to that
principle that you spoke about before, which is that I
hold a very very strong view but most New Zealanders
(08:09):
actually really do care about each other and the planet
that we live on. But as a result of whether
it be the fast paced lifestyles that we operate in,
or the way that politicians have divided us, or whatever else,
that there is kind of, you know, at a surface level,
the sense of individuation or competition or division between us.
But if we spend the time to build those relationships
(08:30):
and to build that trust, then we are in a
far more constructive place to move forward. So the approach
that I'm taking is probably pretty well summed up. And
one of the speeches that I gave at our AGM
in the middle of twenty twenty four, which was about
how it's not enough to be right if we are
left clinging to our mountains of evidence when the last
(08:51):
three is cut down, and in fact, if all we're
focused on is being right, then we need to get
a grip and get over ourselves. You actually need to
build relationships with and build trust with people who are
going to be impacted by the policies that you are
proportioning will improve their lives, so that where I've done
some working, for example, going out and actually meeting directly
(09:11):
with coal miners on the west coast of the South Island,
where I've been meeting also directly with farmers who have
been hit the first and worst way client change charge
were the events yet building those alliances that people wouldn't
necessarily expect.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I guess when you talked about being the largest party
on the left, and so I might argue that that
position is going to be reached by you focusing more
on green issues and the socioeconomic issues, which it's a
question of opinion, but I would say you are further
left than your and your friends and labor. It shouldn't
shouldn't you be focusing more on the green issues. I
(09:45):
know that's a question you get asked all the time.
Let's you know, New Year.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I'm really really glad because I'm really really glad that
you asked it, Actually, because I think it's important for
people to understand what the Green Party is because our
story hasn't been partic ciculated out there in the you know,
in a way that most people have heard it. So
Green parties all across the world actually have the same
core charter, Prince. What differentiates the Green Party in altered
(10:10):
or in New Zealand as a commitment to test to
your way thing is our found and constitutional document. But
from that our four core principles flow. The first is
ecological wisdom recognition, the fact that resources are finite, even
resources that do regenerate need time and space and planning
in order to regenerate. That's a pretty basic scientific kind
of parameter to the world as we know. It's a
(10:31):
hopefully pretty common sense to people. The next one makes
a whole lot of sense if you accept that first premise,
and that is social responsibility. Basically, if we're saying that
these resources are somewhat finite, we need to ensure that
they are shared fairly so that everybody has an opportunity
to participate in our society, to not just survive, but
to actually thrive, to flourish. The food is appropriate decision making,
(10:52):
which goes to the points that we've been discussing around
how we make decisions in a sustainable, long term way
that bring people along with us. It's why we're also
massive nerds and supporters of local government. And the fourth
is a non violence. Of course, you know, if we're
happy is we don't like going to war. But I
think more and also than that, it's about how do
you create these systems which don't neglect people and their experiences.
(11:14):
So further down the track they say, hey, this doesn't
work for me. So how that answers your question is
actually something that Jeanette sit Simon said when she was,
you know, the founding co leader of the party alongside
Rod Donald. We have economy that currently exploits people and
the planet. So the issues that people are feeling in
their daily lives, feeling usly exhausted by the insatiable, unsustainable
(11:37):
demands of the current rules of the economy, which are
totally man made, is the same economic system which is
exploiting and exhausting our natural world. And what we say
is the greens is that it does not have to
be that way. We can change these rules, and actually
we've done it in the past, and the nineteen thirties
and forties, confronted with world wars and the Great Depression,
(11:58):
we decided as a country that we would respond by
creating the welfare state, by creating public health care and
education and housing and welfare that ensured that everybody was
able to participate in society. We paid for it by
higher taxes on those who had profited during a time
the pard shit. For many forty years thereafter, that safety
(12:19):
net has been shredded, and we're living with the consequences
of that today. And the form of the greatest rates
of wealth and equality that we've seen on record doesn't
have to be that way.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Great stuff. Gosh, we could talk for ages, but unfortunately, yeah,
we've got to stay goodbye. Hey, you have a wonderful
twenty twenty five Chloe, and all the best of you
and your colleagues.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
New talks very much, mate, time Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
News Talks THEREBS twenty three and a half past eight.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
For more from News Talks, ab listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.