Wayne Mapp: former Defence Minister on US Secretary of War Pete Hegseth accusing New Zealand of freeloading

A former Defence Minister says our geographical separation should negate the need to up our defence spending.

US Secretary of War Pete Hegseth's accused New Zealand of freeloading off the US military by spending 2 percent of GDP on defence. 

He's revealed expectations that US allies spend 3.5 percent of GDP, at a global security summit in Singapore. 

But Wayne Mapp says the Pacific isn't facing threats of invasion, the same way NATO countries are.  

"Everything that comes to New Zealand costs more. Every place we go to costs more, but there is one advantage we get out of it, and that's security." 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
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Speaker 2 (00:16):
There's been a security summit in Singapore, and at that summit,
the US Secretary of War Pete Heggshath took a swing
at New Zealand's approach to defense. Well, that was unfortunate,
he said, nuking, but then he says working. They'll be
meeting over the course of the weekend. Pete Heggshath says
two percent of GDP on defense is just not enough.
He calls for all nations and scapegoated US to start
committing to three point five percent. So Wayne Mapp is

(00:39):
a former defense minister and joins us this morning. Good
barding to your Wayne, so Mon and Andrew. Are we freeloaders?

Speaker 3 (00:46):
No, we're not. And it's worth noting that that response
was due to a question by Anna Fairfield where she
actually specifically asked because New Children was being a free
lader by only going to two percent, So she kind
of set up the scene, if you will, for that answer.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yes, she did. And it is also fair to say
that Hegsath is warning the whole world. The global average
is two point five the NATO averages two. Uk is
at two point four, Australia is it to India is
at two point three, China at one point five. Yes,
Ukraine's at forty and Russia's at seven point five. But
most of the most of the world is free loading.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, well China's one point five, that's for sure. They
have a publicly declared forgether And then analysts would say
that's really more like three percent.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
So is three point five realistic for the world and
is it realistic for New Zealand.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
It's not realistic. Well, it's understandable. In NATO. NATO has
got a very particular set of challenges. The Pacific is
are different, the pressures are different. You know, there's no
actual invasions like Ukraine or anything like that in our region.
New Zealand is also the most secure country in the
entire planet. We you know, we're further away from any

(02:03):
other country. And I used to say to the australig
who would talk about, you know, New Zealand space and
I said, look, everything that comes to New Zeron costs more.
Every place we go to costs more. But there is
one advantage we get out of it, and that is security.
You would expect us to take at least some advantage
of that fact.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, I said Chris Pig though he was up there,
and he swiftly pushed back. He said, We're not a
free loader. We've played a part in global security for generations.
We played thirty five percent of GDP in World War Two,
and that we're ramping up funding after historic under investment.
So did he do a good.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
Job, Yes he did, and certainly when I was a
defense minister, but also other defense ministers. We focus very carefully,
or the new zer on defense course focuses very carefully
on some key skill sets that when deployed with partners,
make a real difference. So kind of we but like

(02:58):
the Olympics, we specialize, We focused and then we do
really well. You know, New Zealand is the smallest country
in the world that has the very sophisticated PS maritime aircraft.
Our sas are second to none, and you know we
have got deep, deep experience in peacekeeper.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
So how capable though, is the New Zealand Defense force
right now compared to when you were a minister in
times before you.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Well, there are certainly pressures on it, but it's more
or less about the same size that it's been for
a long time now. Arguably, as our population has grown,
our defense force should have grown a bit. And you know,
you've got to ask the question. You know, we were
fundamentally more less equipped as we were at the beginning
of the twenty first century when to Quota Halen Clark

(03:45):
there was a belign strategic environment, although it wasn't long
after that that, of course, Oka happened. But nevertheless, we
are in a different world now, so we do have
to step up a bit. Australia has stepped up a
huge amount. They are the ones that we really need
to be taking note of because they are actually our
only formal ally and our eyes do own duties to

(04:07):
each other.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well, this is a very important point because Chris Pink
went on in the summit to say that we need
to have a conversation about our non nuclear position, because
Australia of course has confirmed orders of secondhand nuclear powered submarines.
So is this position that we currently hold more and
more untenable as all our allies, in particular Australia gear up.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
No, our position is not untenable. I mean we're able
to we exercise them in many different ways in fact,
with US forces whilst you know obviously having a nuclear
free status, so we all to be able to interact
with Australia perfectly well notwithstanding they have nuclear submarines, you know,

(04:51):
asking for a conversation six months from an election, some
would say that is a bold statement, all.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right, way, MAP, I thank you for your time today,
Wayne is the former Defense Minister.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
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