December 2, 2024 • 29 mins
Boris Johnson is unapologetic about taking his country out of the European Union.
He's in New Zealand for a speaking event and to promote his book 'Unleashed'.
The former British Prime Minister says while there was panic about Brexit at the time, in the long term it's been good for the UK.
He told Kerre Woodham that the split from the EU came in handy during the Covid pandemic.
He says it allowed the country to get early access to vaccines before other European countries.
Johnson says the massive Conservative loss in this year's UK General Election can't be blamed on him.
The Conservative Party's defeat by Keir Starmer's Labour was one of its worst-ever losses.
Johnson told Woodham had he and Rishi Sunak teamed up, it would have been a different result.
He says if they'd been able to put into action some things they'd planned, they would have wiped the floor with Starmer.
He's denied any responsibility for the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, and says progress has been slow since he left office.
The former Prime Minister says it's "absolute bollocks" to suggest the UK could have a role in negotiating peace between Ukraine and Russia.
Johnson says the West has a pathetic paranoia about humiliating Vladimir Putin - and is too half-hearted in helping Ukraine.
He says he's fed up with hearing the nonsense idea we'd risk a nuclear confrontation.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerry wood of Mornings podcast from
Newstalks EDB. Former UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Kerry
woodham Mornings with Pinnacle Life and get a life insurance
quote in just thirty seconds It News Talks Envy.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I do need the headphones as it transpires, because I
can't hear when the music cuts out. Now, we took
them Mark because they're so annoying and given that we're
not taking calls, although I bet there's a few of
you that would love to put a question to my
next guest. Former United Kingdom Prime Minister Boris Johnson has
a new memoir out for the cameras. It is unleashed
(00:41):
as a deep dive into his time in politics and
the media. Mister Johnson led the Conservative Party from twenty
nineteen to twenty twenty two, served as Prime Minister during
Brexit and the height of the COVID nineteen pandemic. He
resigned in twenty twenty two following a mass result revolt
by ministers over his leadership sparked by scandals including party Gate.
(01:02):
Boris Johnson is in New Zealand for the General Capital
Long Lunch with Duco, which I will be seeing changing
my frock and the Dunnies and sprinting down to get
there in time. And Boris Johnson joins me, now, very.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Very good morning, Very good to see you, Kerry. Thank
you for having me on your show.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Absolutely delighted to have you here. Now. I was watching
a documentary. We were just talking about those documentaries. Do
you ever watch them? The ones that psychoanalyze why you.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Are the way? No, I don't. I'm ashamed to say.
I just I know there's all this stuff out there.
I don't have time to get a grip on what
people are saying or to respond to it all. But Unleashed,
which you've kindly alluded to already, is meant to kind
of set out what I think and to explain what
(01:45):
I was doing and what I hope will still happen
in our great country.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Right because one of the people quoted in the docos
Britch political journalist Andrew Gibson. He wrote Boris Johnson, The
Rise and Fall of a Troublemaker at number ten. He
remembers you saying when he said to you that he
was writing a book, rus nothing could be more damaging
than a book told the truth about.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Me, I don't, well, I don't. I don't remember that,
nor do I think that Andrew. I mean, Andrew's book
was was fine. I think as far as it went.
I only read he did a version when I was
Mayor of London. But you know that was before we'd
done so much other stuff. And the key thing that
really happened in the last few years was the Brexit
(02:29):
revolution and what I try and I think that the
trouble with Brexit is although I believe very very strongly
that it was the right thing for the UK because
you have to imagine the kind of factual where we'd
stayed in the EU, which is increasingly undemocratic, but people
don't see it that way. I have to I have
to accept that a lot of people in my country
(02:50):
still don't see it that way. But I just don't
think we're going back in ever into the interview EU
never never known and correct. I mean, look at it.
You know, we've outgrown all these other European countries in
spite of being you know, out the EU. People said
it would be terrible, you know, and they make the
people criticize the Brexit campaign and they say, oh, well,
(03:14):
you misrep your great big fat red bus total o
of great, big fat liars about the NHS. It's not
true that the numbers we gave were correct. And actually
it was the other side of the argument, the remain
guys who said that if we left the EU we
would have a million people unemployed, you remember that, and
they pick the government paid for nine points through nine
(03:36):
point three million pounds for leaflets to go to every
household in the country, saying, you know, property prices would collapse,
there'd be an emergency budget. Was does anybody ever say
they want the liars? Why doesn't the BBC ever haul
them into the studio and beat them up for the
flagrant liars that they told. And actually, as I try
(03:56):
and explain in Unleashed, if you look at it, much
to my amazement, within weeks of having delivered the full
Brexit and really taken legislative control of our country for
the first time in forty five years, we had the
power to set our own regulation that came good and
(04:18):
twenty seven EU countries waited, when waited and waited to
give approval to vaccinations for COVID, and because we were
outside the EU, we down well died it within weeks
and as soon as we had the vaccines, and that
made a material difference. We had the fastest vaccine rollout,
(04:39):
We got drugs into elderly, vulnerable, frightened people faster than
any other European country into their arms, and we had
protection faster than anywhere else because of Brexit. Now people say,
you know it was order disaster. I say, Brexit saved lives,
and that's just the beginning of the possibilities of regulatory
(05:05):
and legi sative independence. We then had a faster economic
recovery than any other European country. And you know, far
by the way I said a too much of unemployment
when I stopped being Prime Minister, we had unemployment at
an overall unemployment at a fifty year low. We had
six hundred and twenty thousand more people in paid employment
(05:28):
than before the pandemic began, and we had youth un
employment at a forty five year So you know, we
were right in our fundamental analysis. And I think in
a globalized economy it's very important for countries to have
democratic freedom to do things in their own interest, just
as New Zealand does. And I don't think for a
(05:49):
second that you know New Zealand or the United States
of America or many other countries would trade away that
freedom for a federal structure.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
You've got to be right for longer than a bit, though,
don't you. Because I think critics, the remainers were saying,
I think.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
We're going to be right for for for a centuries.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well, I was saying it was a very backward, very insular,
very anti.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
No Europe is insular. Europe is why why why govern?
Why have a system where you create a very tight
political unit for what five percent of the of the
world's population on the end of the Eurasian land mass,
Why why not? Why why not have a system where
(06:34):
you have you know, everybody setting standards together globally, which
is what you should do, everybody trying to protect the
interests of consumers globally, which is what you should do.
I mean, why create this this tight little European unit
which is actually very exclusive and you know, very ethnically homogeneous.
(06:59):
You know, I don't see it as a I don't
see it as a great liberal project. I see it
as I see it as a something that was based
on you know, it was based on some false assumptions
about Germany, about the return of German power after the
fall of the Berlin Wall. A lot of nonsense and view.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
About the EU informed during your time in Brussels. Did
you see it as a big, unwieldy organization whereby you know,
the rich line of the pockets and those and the No,
it does.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Have elements of corruption, that's true, but I don't want
to you know, that's not the worst problem. The worst
problem basically is exactly what you say, Kerry. It's just
not organized so as to deliver for its people, right.
And the great comparison is to be made with the
United States of America. And if you if you look
at growth rates and the economic dynamism of the two entities,
(08:00):
the EU and the United States, contrast their relative performs
since twenty two thousand and eight, right when the crash began.
Look at the fifteen years or so six sixteen years
since since the crash of two thousand and eight, the
EU has barely grown. I mean, the UK is now left.
(08:20):
But even if you still include the UK, the EU
has barely grown. That both the EU and the US
were then worth about fourteen fifteen trillion dollars in GDP.
Since then, the US is now worth about twenty six
(08:41):
trillion dollars, even though it has far fewer people. So
there is no area of the United States which is
not richer than the EU. And we need to ask
ourselves in Europe, you know, what's wrong with our model?
And Brexit is part of allowing the UK and it's
(09:02):
only a permission, you know, it's only Brexit is what
you make of it. We need to look at what's
gone wrong and we need to think about, you know,
can we continue with this model? We have fifty percent
of the world's welfare payments are made in Europe. We
had one of the most regulated environments in the world.
And and you know, contrast the dynamism of the United States,
(09:26):
the growth that yes, the originality that you see there.
That's what I would say, and I'm so my vision
for Britain and post Brexit Britain was to take advantage
of that because I do think that we're you know,
we've always been a free trading on earth.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Are they going to do that under this government?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Well? You may well, I mean that's right. I mean,
you know, I've come, I know, gee, I've come to
New Zealand. But lots of people are fleeing the UK
at the moment, and it's very sad. I mean, lots
of lots of the wealth creators are just upping sticks
and they're going to They're going to do buy, They're
going to Milan, for heaven's sake. Not since the nineteen
(10:08):
seventies have I known an actual emigration problem in the UK,
you know, where we had people literally leaving talented people
because they didn't want to work in the UK anymore.
I mean, the UK has always been a magnet my
working lifetime. It's been a magnet for talent. And it's
very very sad.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Because you're saying, the afterward of Unleashed we routed a
semi Marxist labor party. This was something you were very
proud of the things you did. Will you list the achievements.
We routed a semi Marxist labor party, many of whom
thought they were finally about to pun power. Well they
have and they're more Marxian.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Right, I know, I know what that was.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Do you take a little bit of responsibility for that,
because if you'd still been there, if they hadn't been
the pro roguing, if there hadn't been the party gate,
if they hadn't been brilliant.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
The paraguing listens divide all this up.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
If you didn't like it, well, but they were wrong,
and we the Supreme Supreme Courts, well.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
You know, but we we Then we then went on
after don't forget the chronology.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Is a little trumpy and saying the Supreme Court's.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Wrong, Well, I'm allowed to have see my view about that.
And by the way, the Lord Chief Justice thought the
Supreme Court is wrong, so I'm not in You know,
there were plenty of very respectable legal opinions that thought
the Supreme Courts is wrong, and many other senior senior
judges thought the same. And in terms of what the
people thought, don't forget that that judgment took place before
(11:31):
we won the biggest majority since nineteen seventy nine, fourteen
million votes by the way, four million votes more than
Starmar one in twenty twenty four and forty four percent
of the vote. So you know, whatever you may say
about that particular judgment and the views of the people
that they the election that followed very shortly thereafter, they
(11:54):
clearly expressed their view that whatever the lawyers might say,
we should get on and get Brexit done. Which we did.
And if you look at if you look at news,
should I responsibility for the defeat in twenty twenty four,
Absolutely not, okay, and one million percent. I'll tell you
why not. Because when they kept me doing my job,
(12:18):
we were still winning and we won right up. We
were winning by elections in twenty twenty one. We were
barely behind even in the summer of twenty twenty two, when,
as you rightly say in your introduction, there was a
revolt in my party and I had to step down.
But the Reform pro Party, which I mean the UKIP guys,
(12:40):
the Farage guys, they were on zero zero and that
was People who study UK politics will know that that
was the problem in twenty twenty four because what happened
this year. What happened was that for the first time
in the history of my great party, the Conservative Party,
(13:03):
first time in memory ever, we allowed the right to
be split, and suddenly we had this new thing taking votes.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And that that there that wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It didn't happen it You could just look at the
numbers that.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Didn't within on you to keep the confidence of your ministers. Sure,
explaining explained to me is all very well and good.
You needed to be explaining to your ministers so that you.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Keep and there I have to put my hands up.
And I think there was a there was a problem,
and the one of the problems, you know, maybe the
problem was my own failure to communicate enough, but there
was another problem, which was COVID and we were literally
we were incarcerating all our MPs for eighteen months at
(13:50):
a pretty crucial period. So they were kind of sitting
there on their laptops reading this terrible stuff about me
on Twitter and so on. And I didn't really realize
how kind of psychologically inundated everybody became by this whole thing.
And they, yeah, I mean I think that was it
(14:10):
became very difficult. And what I think they you know,
and I've said this to them, I think probably quite
a lot of them now accepted. I don't think they
realized quite the difference between Twitter or social media and
the kind of hate storms that can be produced and
what real people are really feeling about the world and
(14:33):
their and their prospects. And if you look at the
actual numbers and what was happening in the by elections
and so forth, we were still very strong and you know.
I you know, I'm entitled to my delusion. I genuinely
think that if we kept it together, if Rishie and I,
who were a good team, had stuck together, we'd gone
(14:53):
on and done some of the things that we'd decided
we were going to do together, some of the reforms,
some of the tax cutting as we got to the
end of the parliament, some of the free market stuff
we were going to do. With Brexit, I think we
would have wiped the floor with arm.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Which is I think, great chance for a break.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Okay, you've had enough of this.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
No, no, no, I thought that was just you know,
as a journalist, you'll know a good art when you
hear one. We'd have wiped the floor with starmer. News
Talk said, be it's ten twenty two. News Talk said,
b it is ten twenty five. My guest is Boris
Johnson Pericles, who I understand you draw inspiration from the
Athenian Well, he was the great Athenian statesman.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Who died of the plague by the way in but
he he took Ath's greatness, and when I was young
he inspired me. Well his speech on democracy is it great?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Well, I thought it was really interesting when one of
his quotes for which is well known, along with better
to die and you beat them live on your knees,
which I love. But we do not say that a
man who takes no interest in public affairs as a
man who minds his own business. We say he has
no business being here at all.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yes, he was called an idiots in ancient Greek, which
you mean an idiot, which you derive the word idiot idiot.
He's someone who was turned in on himself.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
So do you believe that there is a duty to
take part in politics.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
I don't think everybody is under such a such a duty,
but I certainly I do believe you. Yeah, look, because
i'm you know, I like like uk. I'm a I
was a journalist for years and years and it is
so and I have great respect for journalism. Yeah, it
must be one of the few. Lifting no, no, no, no, no, Gord.
Journalist is very is very difficult and very very important
because they because they represent millions and millions of people
(16:34):
who can't get into the room and ask politicians questions
and uh, and they have a responsibility to to those
people and what they do is unbelievably bortant. But I
felt that it was I still ought to have a
go at trying to do some of these things. I
was being so critical, I was being and also, yeah,
I've got lots of energy, and I thought maybe I
could have a crack at solving some of these these problems.
(16:56):
So I did a job that really suited me, which
was being Mary of London. I loved that, absolutely loved that,
and that was very creative. You could, you could, You
can't come up with yes, and you had it was
we had the Olympics, we had we had, we had
a great series of transport investments, we had projects to
fight crime, projects for.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
All sorts of So why not stop there and love that?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Well? I mean that that, you know, I guess it's
I guess it's addictive. But I'm glad that I went
on to do what I did because I don't think.
I don't think once we'd voted to leave the EU
in twenty sixteen, I think we were in a real hole.
And because we the British body politic, the establishment couldn't
(17:40):
work out what to do because they weren't you know,
they weren't psychologically prepared for this thing, and they weren't
ready to deliver a proper Brexit, and I had to
do that.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It really is the elate not understanding the will of
the people, is it isn't it?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
I mean I think it's I think there's a bit.
And also I think people continually underestimate how wise the
voters really are. And you know, so you know, look
at Trump, Okay, it's a good you know, everybody you
know class the smelling salts to their nostrils and phi lah.
(18:15):
You know, look at the liberal elites in probably in
this country, certainly in my country, in America everywhere. You know,
they regard the election of Trump as this sort of
appalling event. But actually, when you dig into some of
the things that he's talking about and some of the
things he did when he was president before, you can
see why there's a kind of wisdom in the voters,
(18:39):
because you know, he was on some of the things
that I like Ukraine, he was actually he was actually
strong now Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
A number of people have already texted me basically holding
you responsible. And you also reference it in your book.
You're having lunch and a woman come up and pressed opposed.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
To I mean, this is this is the Kremlin line, right,
I only really say it and I only re draw
attention to it because it's in fury. It's a total lie.
So if you think back to April twenty twenty two,
which is kind of two months after the invasion, a
month and a half after the invasion, the Russians are
still in possession of huge amounts of Ukrainian territory. Right
(19:21):
they've been driven out of Kiev, but they haven't yet
been expelled from all the other regions that the Ukrainians
then kick them out of. And it's clear that Zelenski
needs reassurance and he needs to be I mean, we
need to make it clear that we believe they can
(19:42):
win and that they should fight on. And that's not
to say that we interfere in any negotiations that are
going on. That's up to them. You can't be more
Ukrainian than the Ukrainians. If the Ukrainians want to do
a deal to accept the loss of their territory, to
accept Russia threatening them forever, that's fine. That's for them
(20:06):
to decide. But all I wanted to say when I
went to Ukraine in April twenty twenty two was, look,
we greatly admire what you've done. We think it's heroic.
We can't put ourselves in your position, but I just
want you to know that if you do decide to
fight on, We're going to back you, and I'm sure
(20:26):
that the West is going to continue to back you
as well. But it's your but it's your call now.
At that stage, there was no way that Voladimir Lensky
could have done a deal. And the thing that was
on the table in istaan Bul was a total disaster
for Ukraine. It was the end of their independence. It
was the Russians controlling their army, it was them controlling
(20:48):
a huge proportion of their It was a catastrophe for
the Ukraine. It was the end of Ukraine as an
independent country basically. And I don't think it's Aelenski or
any Ukrainian leader could have agreed to that. I think
actually he or she would have been shot by their
own pop pilation if they if they've done that. So
this idea that the UK somehow had some role in
(21:10):
frustrating a negotiated peace between Russia and and Ukraine's absolute.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
More is perhaps Selenski seeing is you giving more than
you were able to give? Was he reading more into your.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I made it very clear that support. I made it
very clear we couldn't we couldn't give you know, we
weren't going to give send land troops. There was nothing
we could do like that.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Moral supports very well and good but helpful.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
But what we know, what we did give in ever
intensifying quantities was was munitions and weapons, and so if
you think about it, the UK, but by the time
I went to Ukraine, we'd already been the first country
in Europe to give a lot of lethal weaponry in
the form of the anti tank missiles which were really
(22:03):
valuable to the Ukrainians and kicking the Russians out of
out of the Kiev area. The shoulder made in Belfast
shoulder launch anti tank missiles. The UK then helped to
break the taboo on sending tanks to to Ukraine, and
gradually it ratcheted up. But you know, I had a
criticism of what's happened since in the two and a
(22:23):
half years since I left, it's all gone so slowly,
and it's been like, you know, we're willing to stop
the Ukrainians from losing, yes, but we're not willing to
do what is what is necessary for them to win.
Because we've got this pathetic paranoia about Putin and we think, oh,
can't we can't have Putin. It's like, it's like, we
(22:44):
can't have Putin humiliated. I mean, give me a break.
For a start, that he launched this war in an
act of brutal and criminal aggression against an entirely innocent,
independent country. He deserves to be humiliated. But number two,
he won't be humiliated because he has complete control over
(23:04):
the organs of opinion in Russia. He will decide, you know,
how to present the outcome if he gets pushed out
of Ukraine, he'll present it to some sort of success
for his special military operation. Stuff it. I'm fed up
with hearing this. Not as for the idea that we'd
somehow risk a nuclear confrontational and nuclear strike from It's nonsense.
(23:28):
He's never going to do that. The only guy who
really fears escalation is Putin himself. And the mistake we've made,
in my view, is being too half hearted, too gingerly,
approaching the whole thing too slowly. And we could have
got this thing done a long time ago. The Ukrainians forget,
don't forget what the Ukrainians have done. They've kicked the
(23:50):
Russians out of Kiev, out of Kharkiv, out of Kerson
They've taken a huge chunk of Russian territory in the
Curs region. They are heroic, they're showing the rest of
Europe how to fight. They're amazing. But we haven't, to
be absolutely frank given them the cover that they need
and to get this thing done. What they need now
(24:12):
is full permission to use the weapons, which is slowly
coming through. They need more weaponry, but they also need
a big Lenley style funding package, and they need they
need they need to show. We need to show. We
need to decide as the Western world, New Zealand, Great Britain,
ni King America, everyone needs to decide what the final
(24:35):
shape of this nightmare is. How do we get this
thing done? And the answer is that Ukraine, because it
has been brutally invaded, because of the sufferings of the
people of Ukraine, must now have the protection of a
Western security structure, and that, in my view means NATO
and that fixes it. You till putin, Sorry, buddy, we're
(24:58):
giving them half a trillion and trillion dollars of len lease,
We're giving them the weapons, and they're going to be
in NATO, his whole mindset changes. He will look for
a way out and and will bring this scene to
an end. That's what needs to happen. I think Trump, paradoxically,
I think Trump paradoxically might be the man to do that.
Just because though I mean I'm not, you know, and
(25:20):
by no means sort of starry eyed about this, I
think it's possible that he'll you know, I don't know
what he'll do exactly, but the things he's done in
the past have been tough. You know, he gave he
gave you. He also gave the Ukrainians shoulder launched, and
he tak thisiles before we did, and and he did
stuff that the Democrats never did, so he can be tough.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Finally, the other question that is being asked, you're still
a young man. You it's kind of you to say so, Well,
do you know, I consider myself.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
You're certainly, you know, you know, much younger than me, younger.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
But you are still young, especially in politics. You're a
young man, and you've got energy, and you're more important.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
I certainly got lots of energy. But I mean, I think,
but you.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Also know stuff now that you didn't know before. When
you went into politics, so you're older and wiser.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Her majesty, her late majesty the Queen said something very
very good, and it was basically that you've got to
stop thinking about yourself and what you and you know,
all the things that you wanted. You've got to think
about whether you can be useful yep, and genuinely, whether
you can be whether your particular talents can be useful
to your country or party at a particular time. And
(26:33):
there were a couple of times in the last fifteen years,
as I say in this book Unleashed, when I definitely
probably was you know, the solution the party was looking
for for the London malty. They tried everybody, believe me,
they and then in twenty nineteen they couldn't find that
a prime minister who could get Brexit done. So I'm
(26:55):
very happy in my life at the moment. And you
know what you said at the beginning is true. I
mean being outside politics is easier in some ways. You
can speak your mind more freely, you sleep better, it's
it's fantastic. I got a young family. But you know,
on the other hand, if you can be useful, then
then then you should.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Be useful.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Well, I mean, at the at present, I can be
I can be useful having a wonderful time in New Zealand.
That's why. That's my principle. That's my principle. Well, I
was you. I'm very pleased by the way I want
to say. I want to say one final thing. I
was very pleased we finally did a free trade agreement
with New Zealand. Yes, and thanks to I mean listeners,
your your listeners should know that thanks to us, the
free trade agreement that we did, the hungry British consumers
(27:42):
are now eating I think about twenty four percent more
New Zealand meat and beverages than they were. So that's lamb.
And you know Cloudy Bay serving you on Blanc twenty
eighteen or whatever it is, the word word drinking and
eating more of your wonderful stuff. And that, by the way,
plenty of about this. God knows what else we're taking
(28:05):
from Zealanders as well. And the trade has also increased
the other way, and that that's a that's a good
thing for the world.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I couldn't agree more. I very much look forward to
being in the audience hearing you this afternoon. I know
that you have to.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I can see David's are are they trying to get
me out?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
You look at them all.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I know I've deliberately, I've deliberately turned my back on
your producers so that they can't drag me out. But
now I turn around, I can see that they're all
the way they think the viewer, they think the listeners
have been bombarded with enough.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
John Lifetime extremely interesting and it's a very good read.
You you write like you write this yourself, because I'll
never forget feeling so ripped off when I finished Open
which had Andre Eggacy's name on the front, and it's
only on the very last page you find out.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
The every every one I can tell.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I can tell what I read every.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
War, sure, but I also had advice I can't. I couldn't. Actually,
I was very bad at making speeches that have been
written for me by other people. I couldn't do it.
It's a terrible weakness because it means that you spend
hours writing the speeches. Frankly, you should be leaving to
somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And well, I know the book. The book is very readable.
It covers a lot of heavy topics, a lot of
interesting topics, and but it but It reads.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
About years geopolitics, Unleash, Unleashed.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
There you go, unleash Boris Johnson, so please see himself
to think Okay, News Talk said B. It is twenty
to eleven.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live to News
Talk Said B from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Kerry wood of Mornings podcast from
Newstalks EDB. Former UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Kerry
woodham Mornings with Pinnacle Life and get a life insurance
quote in just thirty seconds It News Talks Envy.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I do need the headphones as it transpires, because I
can't hear when the music cuts out. Now, we took
them Mark because they're so annoying and given that we're
not taking calls, although I bet there's a few of
you that would love to put a question to my
next guest. Former United Kingdom Prime Minister Boris Johnson has
a new memoir out for the cameras. It is unleashed
(00:41):
as a deep dive into his time in politics and
the media. Mister Johnson led the Conservative Party from twenty
nineteen to twenty twenty two, served as Prime Minister during
Brexit and the height of the COVID nineteen pandemic. He
resigned in twenty twenty two following a mass result revolt
by ministers over his leadership sparked by scandals including party Gate.
(01:02):
Boris Johnson is in New Zealand for the General Capital
Long Lunch with Duco, which I will be seeing changing
my frock and the Dunnies and sprinting down to get
there in time. And Boris Johnson joins me, now, very.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Very good morning, Very good to see you, Kerry. Thank
you for having me on your show.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Absolutely delighted to have you here. Now. I was watching
a documentary. We were just talking about those documentaries. Do
you ever watch them? The ones that psychoanalyze why you.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Are the way? No, I don't. I'm ashamed to say.
I just I know there's all this stuff out there.
I don't have time to get a grip on what
people are saying or to respond to it all. But Unleashed,
which you've kindly alluded to already, is meant to kind
of set out what I think and to explain what
(01:45):
I was doing and what I hope will still happen
in our great country.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Right because one of the people quoted in the docos
Britch political journalist Andrew Gibson. He wrote Boris Johnson, The
Rise and Fall of a Troublemaker at number ten. He
remembers you saying when he said to you that he
was writing a book, rus nothing could be more damaging
than a book told the truth about.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Me, I don't, well, I don't. I don't remember that,
nor do I think that Andrew. I mean, Andrew's book
was was fine. I think as far as it went.
I only read he did a version when I was
Mayor of London. But you know that was before we'd
done so much other stuff. And the key thing that
really happened in the last few years was the Brexit
(02:29):
revolution and what I try and I think that the
trouble with Brexit is although I believe very very strongly
that it was the right thing for the UK because
you have to imagine the kind of factual where we'd
stayed in the EU, which is increasingly undemocratic, but people
don't see it that way. I have to I have
to accept that a lot of people in my country
(02:50):
still don't see it that way. But I just don't
think we're going back in ever into the interview EU
never never known and correct. I mean, look at it.
You know, we've outgrown all these other European countries in
spite of being you know, out the EU. People said
it would be terrible, you know, and they make the
people criticize the Brexit campaign and they say, oh, well,
(03:14):
you misrep your great big fat red bus total o
of great, big fat liars about the NHS. It's not
true that the numbers we gave were correct. And actually
it was the other side of the argument, the remain
guys who said that if we left the EU we
would have a million people unemployed, you remember that, and
they pick the government paid for nine points through nine
(03:36):
point three million pounds for leaflets to go to every
household in the country, saying, you know, property prices would collapse,
there'd be an emergency budget. Was does anybody ever say
they want the liars? Why doesn't the BBC ever haul
them into the studio and beat them up for the
flagrant liars that they told. And actually, as I try
(03:56):
and explain in Unleashed, if you look at it, much
to my amazement, within weeks of having delivered the full
Brexit and really taken legislative control of our country for
the first time in forty five years, we had the
power to set our own regulation that came good and
(04:18):
twenty seven EU countries waited, when waited and waited to
give approval to vaccinations for COVID, and because we were
outside the EU, we down well died it within weeks
and as soon as we had the vaccines, and that
made a material difference. We had the fastest vaccine rollout,
(04:39):
We got drugs into elderly, vulnerable, frightened people faster than
any other European country into their arms, and we had
protection faster than anywhere else because of Brexit. Now people say,
you know it was order disaster. I say, Brexit saved lives,
and that's just the beginning of the possibilities of regulatory
(05:05):
and legi sative independence. We then had a faster economic
recovery than any other European country. And you know, far
by the way I said a too much of unemployment
when I stopped being Prime Minister, we had unemployment at
an overall unemployment at a fifty year low. We had
six hundred and twenty thousand more people in paid employment
(05:28):
than before the pandemic began, and we had youth un
employment at a forty five year So you know, we
were right in our fundamental analysis. And I think in
a globalized economy it's very important for countries to have
democratic freedom to do things in their own interest, just
as New Zealand does. And I don't think for a
(05:49):
second that you know New Zealand or the United States
of America or many other countries would trade away that
freedom for a federal structure.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
You've got to be right for longer than a bit, though,
don't you. Because I think critics, the remainers were saying,
I think.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
We're going to be right for for for a centuries.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well, I was saying it was a very backward, very insular,
very anti.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
No Europe is insular. Europe is why why why govern?
Why have a system where you create a very tight
political unit for what five percent of the of the
world's population on the end of the Eurasian land mass,
Why why not? Why why not have a system where
(06:34):
you have you know, everybody setting standards together globally, which
is what you should do, everybody trying to protect the
interests of consumers globally, which is what you should do.
I mean, why create this this tight little European unit
which is actually very exclusive and you know, very ethnically homogeneous.
(06:59):
You know, I don't see it as a I don't
see it as a great liberal project. I see it
as I see it as a something that was based
on you know, it was based on some false assumptions
about Germany, about the return of German power after the
fall of the Berlin Wall. A lot of nonsense and view.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
About the EU informed during your time in Brussels. Did
you see it as a big, unwieldy organization whereby you know,
the rich line of the pockets and those and the No,
it does.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Have elements of corruption, that's true, but I don't want
to you know, that's not the worst problem. The worst
problem basically is exactly what you say, Kerry. It's just
not organized so as to deliver for its people, right.
And the great comparison is to be made with the
United States of America. And if you if you look
at growth rates and the economic dynamism of the two entities,
(08:00):
the EU and the United States, contrast their relative performs
since twenty two thousand and eight, right when the crash began.
Look at the fifteen years or so six sixteen years
since since the crash of two thousand and eight, the
EU has barely grown. I mean, the UK is now left.
(08:20):
But even if you still include the UK, the EU
has barely grown. That both the EU and the US
were then worth about fourteen fifteen trillion dollars in GDP.
Since then, the US is now worth about twenty six
(08:41):
trillion dollars, even though it has far fewer people. So
there is no area of the United States which is
not richer than the EU. And we need to ask
ourselves in Europe, you know, what's wrong with our model?
And Brexit is part of allowing the UK and it's
(09:02):
only a permission, you know, it's only Brexit is what
you make of it. We need to look at what's
gone wrong and we need to think about, you know,
can we continue with this model? We have fifty percent
of the world's welfare payments are made in Europe. We
had one of the most regulated environments in the world.
And and you know, contrast the dynamism of the United States,
(09:26):
the growth that yes, the originality that you see there.
That's what I would say, and I'm so my vision
for Britain and post Brexit Britain was to take advantage
of that because I do think that we're you know,
we've always been a free trading on earth.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Are they going to do that under this government?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Well? You may well, I mean that's right. I mean,
you know, I've come, I know, gee, I've come to
New Zealand. But lots of people are fleeing the UK
at the moment, and it's very sad. I mean, lots
of lots of the wealth creators are just upping sticks
and they're going to They're going to do buy, They're
going to Milan, for heaven's sake. Not since the nineteen
(10:08):
seventies have I known an actual emigration problem in the UK,
you know, where we had people literally leaving talented people
because they didn't want to work in the UK anymore.
I mean, the UK has always been a magnet my
working lifetime. It's been a magnet for talent. And it's
very very sad.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Because you're saying, the afterward of Unleashed we routed a
semi Marxist labor party. This was something you were very
proud of the things you did. Will you list the achievements.
We routed a semi Marxist labor party, many of whom
thought they were finally about to pun power. Well they
have and they're more Marxian.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Right, I know, I know what that was.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Do you take a little bit of responsibility for that,
because if you'd still been there, if they hadn't been
the pro roguing, if there hadn't been the party gate,
if they hadn't been brilliant.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
The paraguing listens divide all this up.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
If you didn't like it, well, but they were wrong,
and we the Supreme Supreme Courts, well.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
You know, but we we Then we then went on
after don't forget the chronology.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Is a little trumpy and saying the Supreme Court's.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Wrong, Well, I'm allowed to have see my view about that.
And by the way, the Lord Chief Justice thought the
Supreme Court is wrong, so I'm not in You know,
there were plenty of very respectable legal opinions that thought
the Supreme Courts is wrong, and many other senior senior
judges thought the same. And in terms of what the
people thought, don't forget that that judgment took place before
(11:31):
we won the biggest majority since nineteen seventy nine, fourteen
million votes by the way, four million votes more than
Starmar one in twenty twenty four and forty four percent
of the vote. So you know, whatever you may say
about that particular judgment and the views of the people
that they the election that followed very shortly thereafter, they
(11:54):
clearly expressed their view that whatever the lawyers might say,
we should get on and get Brexit done. Which we did.
And if you look at if you look at news,
should I responsibility for the defeat in twenty twenty four,
Absolutely not, okay, and one million percent. I'll tell you
why not. Because when they kept me doing my job,
(12:18):
we were still winning and we won right up. We
were winning by elections in twenty twenty one. We were
barely behind even in the summer of twenty twenty two, when,
as you rightly say in your introduction, there was a
revolt in my party and I had to step down.
But the Reform pro Party, which I mean the UKIP guys,
(12:40):
the Farage guys, they were on zero zero and that
was People who study UK politics will know that that
was the problem in twenty twenty four because what happened
this year. What happened was that for the first time
in the history of my great party, the Conservative Party,
(13:03):
first time in memory ever, we allowed the right to
be split, and suddenly we had this new thing taking votes.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And that that there that wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It didn't happen it You could just look at the
numbers that.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Didn't within on you to keep the confidence of your ministers. Sure,
explaining explained to me is all very well and good.
You needed to be explaining to your ministers so that you.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Keep and there I have to put my hands up.
And I think there was a there was a problem,
and the one of the problems, you know, maybe the
problem was my own failure to communicate enough, but there
was another problem, which was COVID and we were literally
we were incarcerating all our MPs for eighteen months at
(13:50):
a pretty crucial period. So they were kind of sitting
there on their laptops reading this terrible stuff about me
on Twitter and so on. And I didn't really realize
how kind of psychologically inundated everybody became by this whole thing.
And they, yeah, I mean I think that was it
(14:10):
became very difficult. And what I think they you know,
and I've said this to them, I think probably quite
a lot of them now accepted. I don't think they
realized quite the difference between Twitter or social media and
the kind of hate storms that can be produced and
what real people are really feeling about the world and
(14:33):
their and their prospects. And if you look at the
actual numbers and what was happening in the by elections
and so forth, we were still very strong and you know.
I you know, I'm entitled to my delusion. I genuinely
think that if we kept it together, if Rishie and I,
who were a good team, had stuck together, we'd gone
(14:53):
on and done some of the things that we'd decided
we were going to do together, some of the reforms,
some of the tax cutting as we got to the
end of the parliament, some of the free market stuff
we were going to do. With Brexit, I think we
would have wiped the floor with arm.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Which is I think, great chance for a break.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Okay, you've had enough of this.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
No, no, no, I thought that was just you know,
as a journalist, you'll know a good art when you
hear one. We'd have wiped the floor with starmer. News
Talk said, be it's ten twenty two. News Talk said,
b it is ten twenty five. My guest is Boris
Johnson Pericles, who I understand you draw inspiration from the
Athenian Well, he was the great Athenian statesman.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Who died of the plague by the way in but
he he took Ath's greatness, and when I was young
he inspired me. Well his speech on democracy is it great?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Well, I thought it was really interesting when one of
his quotes for which is well known, along with better
to die and you beat them live on your knees,
which I love. But we do not say that a
man who takes no interest in public affairs as a
man who minds his own business. We say he has
no business being here at all.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yes, he was called an idiots in ancient Greek, which
you mean an idiot, which you derive the word idiot idiot.
He's someone who was turned in on himself.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
So do you believe that there is a duty to
take part in politics.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
I don't think everybody is under such a such a duty,
but I certainly I do believe you. Yeah, look, because
i'm you know, I like like uk. I'm a I
was a journalist for years and years and it is
so and I have great respect for journalism. Yeah, it
must be one of the few. Lifting no, no, no, no, no, Gord.
Journalist is very is very difficult and very very important
because they because they represent millions and millions of people
(16:34):
who can't get into the room and ask politicians questions
and uh, and they have a responsibility to to those
people and what they do is unbelievably bortant. But I
felt that it was I still ought to have a
go at trying to do some of these things. I
was being so critical, I was being and also, yeah,
I've got lots of energy, and I thought maybe I
could have a crack at solving some of these these problems.
(16:56):
So I did a job that really suited me, which
was being Mary of London. I loved that, absolutely loved that,
and that was very creative. You could, you could, You
can't come up with yes, and you had it was
we had the Olympics, we had we had, we had
a great series of transport investments, we had projects to
fight crime, projects for.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
All sorts of So why not stop there and love that?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Well? I mean that that, you know, I guess it's
I guess it's addictive. But I'm glad that I went
on to do what I did because I don't think.
I don't think once we'd voted to leave the EU
in twenty sixteen, I think we were in a real hole.
And because we the British body politic, the establishment couldn't
(17:40):
work out what to do because they weren't you know,
they weren't psychologically prepared for this thing, and they weren't
ready to deliver a proper Brexit, and I had to
do that.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It really is the elate not understanding the will of
the people, is it isn't it?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
I mean I think it's I think there's a bit.
And also I think people continually underestimate how wise the
voters really are. And you know, so you know, look
at Trump, Okay, it's a good you know, everybody you
know class the smelling salts to their nostrils and phi lah.
(18:15):
You know, look at the liberal elites in probably in
this country, certainly in my country, in America everywhere. You know,
they regard the election of Trump as this sort of
appalling event. But actually, when you dig into some of
the things that he's talking about and some of the
things he did when he was president before, you can
see why there's a kind of wisdom in the voters,
(18:39):
because you know, he was on some of the things
that I like Ukraine, he was actually he was actually
strong now Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
A number of people have already texted me basically holding
you responsible. And you also reference it in your book.
You're having lunch and a woman come up and pressed opposed.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
To I mean, this is this is the Kremlin line, right,
I only really say it and I only re draw
attention to it because it's in fury. It's a total lie.
So if you think back to April twenty twenty two,
which is kind of two months after the invasion, a
month and a half after the invasion, the Russians are
still in possession of huge amounts of Ukrainian territory. Right
(19:21):
they've been driven out of Kiev, but they haven't yet
been expelled from all the other regions that the Ukrainians
then kick them out of. And it's clear that Zelenski
needs reassurance and he needs to be I mean, we
need to make it clear that we believe they can
(19:42):
win and that they should fight on. And that's not
to say that we interfere in any negotiations that are
going on. That's up to them. You can't be more
Ukrainian than the Ukrainians. If the Ukrainians want to do
a deal to accept the loss of their territory, to
accept Russia threatening them forever, that's fine. That's for them
(20:06):
to decide. But all I wanted to say when I
went to Ukraine in April twenty twenty two was, look,
we greatly admire what you've done. We think it's heroic.
We can't put ourselves in your position, but I just
want you to know that if you do decide to
fight on, We're going to back you, and I'm sure
(20:26):
that the West is going to continue to back you
as well. But it's your but it's your call now.
At that stage, there was no way that Voladimir Lensky
could have done a deal. And the thing that was
on the table in istaan Bul was a total disaster
for Ukraine. It was the end of their independence. It
was the Russians controlling their army, it was them controlling
(20:48):
a huge proportion of their It was a catastrophe for
the Ukraine. It was the end of Ukraine as an
independent country basically. And I don't think it's Aelenski or
any Ukrainian leader could have agreed to that. I think
actually he or she would have been shot by their
own pop pilation if they if they've done that. So
this idea that the UK somehow had some role in
(21:10):
frustrating a negotiated peace between Russia and and Ukraine's absolute.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
More is perhaps Selenski seeing is you giving more than
you were able to give? Was he reading more into your.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I made it very clear that support. I made it
very clear we couldn't we couldn't give you know, we
weren't going to give send land troops. There was nothing
we could do like that.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Moral supports very well and good but helpful.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
But what we know, what we did give in ever
intensifying quantities was was munitions and weapons, and so if
you think about it, the UK, but by the time
I went to Ukraine, we'd already been the first country
in Europe to give a lot of lethal weaponry in
the form of the anti tank missiles which were really
(22:03):
valuable to the Ukrainians and kicking the Russians out of
out of the Kiev area. The shoulder made in Belfast
shoulder launch anti tank missiles. The UK then helped to
break the taboo on sending tanks to to Ukraine, and
gradually it ratcheted up. But you know, I had a
criticism of what's happened since in the two and a
(22:23):
half years since I left, it's all gone so slowly,
and it's been like, you know, we're willing to stop
the Ukrainians from losing, yes, but we're not willing to
do what is what is necessary for them to win.
Because we've got this pathetic paranoia about Putin and we think, oh,
can't we can't have Putin. It's like, it's like, we
(22:44):
can't have Putin humiliated. I mean, give me a break.
For a start, that he launched this war in an
act of brutal and criminal aggression against an entirely innocent,
independent country. He deserves to be humiliated. But number two,
he won't be humiliated because he has complete control over
(23:04):
the organs of opinion in Russia. He will decide, you know,
how to present the outcome if he gets pushed out
of Ukraine, he'll present it to some sort of success
for his special military operation. Stuff it. I'm fed up
with hearing this. Not as for the idea that we'd
somehow risk a nuclear confrontational and nuclear strike from It's nonsense.
(23:28):
He's never going to do that. The only guy who
really fears escalation is Putin himself. And the mistake we've made,
in my view, is being too half hearted, too gingerly,
approaching the whole thing too slowly. And we could have
got this thing done a long time ago. The Ukrainians forget,
don't forget what the Ukrainians have done. They've kicked the
(23:50):
Russians out of Kiev, out of Kharkiv, out of Kerson
They've taken a huge chunk of Russian territory in the
Curs region. They are heroic, they're showing the rest of
Europe how to fight. They're amazing. But we haven't, to
be absolutely frank given them the cover that they need
and to get this thing done. What they need now
(24:12):
is full permission to use the weapons, which is slowly
coming through. They need more weaponry, but they also need
a big Lenley style funding package, and they need they
need they need to show. We need to show. We
need to decide as the Western world, New Zealand, Great Britain,
ni King America, everyone needs to decide what the final
(24:35):
shape of this nightmare is. How do we get this
thing done? And the answer is that Ukraine, because it
has been brutally invaded, because of the sufferings of the
people of Ukraine, must now have the protection of a
Western security structure, and that, in my view means NATO
and that fixes it. You till putin, Sorry, buddy, we're
(24:58):
giving them half a trillion and trillion dollars of len lease,
We're giving them the weapons, and they're going to be
in NATO, his whole mindset changes. He will look for
a way out and and will bring this scene to
an end. That's what needs to happen. I think Trump, paradoxically,
I think Trump paradoxically might be the man to do that.
Just because though I mean I'm not, you know, and
(25:20):
by no means sort of starry eyed about this, I
think it's possible that he'll you know, I don't know
what he'll do exactly, but the things he's done in
the past have been tough. You know, he gave he
gave you. He also gave the Ukrainians shoulder launched, and
he tak thisiles before we did, and and he did
stuff that the Democrats never did, so he can be tough.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Finally, the other question that is being asked, you're still
a young man. You it's kind of you to say so, Well,
do you know, I consider myself.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
You're certainly, you know, you know, much younger than me, younger.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
But you are still young, especially in politics. You're a
young man, and you've got energy, and you're more important.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
I certainly got lots of energy. But I mean, I think,
but you.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Also know stuff now that you didn't know before. When
you went into politics, so you're older and wiser.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Her majesty, her late majesty the Queen said something very
very good, and it was basically that you've got to
stop thinking about yourself and what you and you know,
all the things that you wanted. You've got to think
about whether you can be useful yep, and genuinely, whether
you can be whether your particular talents can be useful
to your country or party at a particular time. And
(26:33):
there were a couple of times in the last fifteen years,
as I say in this book Unleashed, when I definitely
probably was you know, the solution the party was looking
for for the London malty. They tried everybody, believe me,
they and then in twenty nineteen they couldn't find that
a prime minister who could get Brexit done. So I'm
(26:55):
very happy in my life at the moment. And you
know what you said at the beginning is true. I
mean being outside politics is easier in some ways. You
can speak your mind more freely, you sleep better, it's
it's fantastic. I got a young family. But you know,
on the other hand, if you can be useful, then
then then you should.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Be useful.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Well, I mean, at the at present, I can be
I can be useful having a wonderful time in New Zealand.
That's why. That's my principle. That's my principle. Well, I
was you. I'm very pleased by the way I want
to say. I want to say one final thing. I
was very pleased we finally did a free trade agreement
with New Zealand. Yes, and thanks to I mean listeners,
your your listeners should know that thanks to us, the
free trade agreement that we did, the hungry British consumers
(27:42):
are now eating I think about twenty four percent more
New Zealand meat and beverages than they were. So that's lamb.
And you know Cloudy Bay serving you on Blanc twenty
eighteen or whatever it is, the word word drinking and
eating more of your wonderful stuff. And that, by the way,
plenty of about this. God knows what else we're taking
(28:05):
from Zealanders as well. And the trade has also increased
the other way, and that that's a that's a good
thing for the world.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I couldn't agree more. I very much look forward to
being in the audience hearing you this afternoon. I know
that you have to.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I can see David's are are they trying to get
me out?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
You look at them all.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I know I've deliberately, I've deliberately turned my back on
your producers so that they can't drag me out. But
now I turn around, I can see that they're all
the way they think the viewer, they think the listeners
have been bombarded with enough.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
John Lifetime extremely interesting and it's a very good read.
You you write like you write this yourself, because I'll
never forget feeling so ripped off when I finished Open
which had Andre Eggacy's name on the front, and it's
only on the very last page you find out.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
The every every one I can tell.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I can tell what I read every.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
War, sure, but I also had advice I can't. I couldn't. Actually,
I was very bad at making speeches that have been
written for me by other people. I couldn't do it.
It's a terrible weakness because it means that you spend
hours writing the speeches. Frankly, you should be leaving to
somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And well, I know the book. The book is very readable.
It covers a lot of heavy topics, a lot of
interesting topics, and but it but It reads.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
About years geopolitics, Unleash, Unleashed.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
There you go, unleash Boris Johnson, so please see himself
to think Okay, News Talk said B. It is twenty
to eleven.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live to News
Talk Said B from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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