A former Foreign Minister says Winston Peters was right to fire Phil Goff.
Goff made comments at a public event questioning US President Donald Trump's understanding of history.
The remarks have cost him his job as High Commissioner to the UK.
Foreign Affairs was one of a number of portfolios held by Sir Don McKinnon under National.
He told Kerre Woodham it's unacceptable for a diplomat to say such things.
McKinnon says there's a line that ambassadors and High Commissioners should not cross.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as promised. We've been discussing Phil Goff, who
has been sacked as High Commissioner to London after Foreign
Minister Winston Peters was made aware of comments Golf made
which questioned Trump's understanding of history former Deputy Prime Minister,
former Minister for Foreign Affairs and former Secretary General of
(00:30):
the Commonwealth. But very much alive, very much in the
present now, Sir Don McKinnon joins me. Now, a very
good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Good morning to you too.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Was this an overreaction? Would you have sacked Phil Goff
had you been Foreign Affairs Minister?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
It would have come to that. Yes. These decisions are
never made easily because for they affect two people, obviously
the reputation of the minister and the government, and of
course the reputation of the ambassador or High Commissioner. In
my time nine years as Foreign Minister, I think two
(01:11):
or three were of these people of this caliber were
forced out of office, or suggested they leave office, or
something that they shouldn't have done. They are never easy decisions.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So you sex them well.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I think I suggested that Taisha. They wouldn't they wouldn't
be seeing out there supposed.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Contract, what for what sort of things had they done?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Ah, these were These were now twenty five years by
carry and I wouldn't wish to go into them again,
but they are. You just know, there's a line that
ambassadors and high commissioners should not cross. And maybe they
have offended the other government, the government of which they
are supposedly the guest of, And there's always a variety
(01:55):
of other issues that can crop up.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, I imagine it's I imagine you would not take
it lightly, but that everybody knows the rules. Sure, Phil Goff,
once he saw those comments starting to circulate, would have
known the writing was on the wall.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, yes, And I think by the very nature of
him asking the question he did one he can knew
what the answer was. And when you heard that little
bit of a snig around the room when he finished
the question, you knew that he was in pretty delicate territory.
And I think you know, noting that the response from
(02:34):
the Foreign Minister of Finland was far more cautious, far
more careful, given of course, you know, from Landers, Russia's
next door neighbor.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, absolutely so. A number of people have suggested that
this government is just sucking up to the US, that
it's that it's because the remark was made about Donald
Trump that he was hired, and Winston Peters said, it
will be if anybody.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
This is this is not the first person this has
happened to you. Yeah, the British ambass in Trump's first
term got pulled back home because of a comment that
was made, an appropriate comment about the President of the
United States and pulled straight back home. There wasn't any
question about it at all. So Phil Golf has been
(03:23):
around long enough and been in foreign affairs long enough
to know there are certain lines you just do not cross.
Had this comment come from someone else, I always think
that one political appointee become High Commissioner ed Hillary he
probably could have gone away with anything. People would have
just laughed. But Phil Golf is in different category.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah. When it comes to Winston Peters saying, if it
had been that comment made about the Prime Minister of
some more, he would have still been fired. Is that
correct as your understand, as you understand the role.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yes, Because the suggestion is it was a comment somewhat
belittling of the person they referred to in that in case,
it was President Trump. Now, going back to your earlier
question about are we just sucking up the United States? Look,
given the actions of the United States and key secretary
(04:22):
cabinet secretaries in the United States right now, you never
know what's going to happen from one day to the next.
Why put your neck out on a block if it's
not necessary. This is a time when I think every
country that deals with the United States has been very careful.
And this is not hiding from anything. It's just been
(04:44):
very careful about what you say and what you do,
because you are talking about the economic life of your
own country.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Was it just a smart ass one liner that he
thought I'd just show how clever I am amongst my
fellow left leaning comrades and within the room he'll be
kicking himself all the way back to Clevedon.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well, that's possible, and that's your diplomatic As I said,
when he made the comment, there was a snig around
the room as if to tending to agree with him
from maybe the kind of audience you're referring. But I've
spoken in Chatham House many times. It's it's no longer
quite the same secret enclave that it was known to be.
(05:31):
In fact, most people who speak at Chathamhouse now release
their speech notes. Yes, so the whole secrecy thing is
something that is more on the past and than the present.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, it was also being live streamed. He must have
known it, would you know that? Yeah, there wasn't any
secrecy around it. So in your time, who made better
diplomats career diplomats or political appointees? And why do you
appoint somebody who's a political appointee when you when you
have an entire department of career diplomats who understand the
noble art.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Well, there are there are places where a political diplomat
can be very, very useful. And again in my time
I did. I think I appointed a few of them.
And you tend to find the political person goes into
the position with quite a different view and quite a
(06:24):
different manner of dealing with things. If they are smart
and if they were successful in their previous political career,
they can be very very useful, in fact, very complimentary
to the career staff that are there. In some cases
I would say they were exceptionally better. That wouldn't mean
to say you would make a point of putting political
(06:46):
people everywhere. You pick the right place for the right
person at the right time. And when I was looking
for a diplomat for a particular position I won't say where,
it was the head of the department who said to me, well,
I think there's one of a one time political colleague
of yours who might be the more appropriate person. So
(07:09):
I saw that as being they were thinking pretty widely
themselves in those circumstances.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Interesting when it comes to political appointings, though, I think
you've got a view about what happens when a government changes.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Wellturally, naturally, if you're a political appointee, you should offer
your resignation to a new government, not necessarily a new
minister in your own government, but certainly to a new government.
Because you are the voice of the government. The government
expects you to be their voice, not anyone else's voice. Naturally,
if you've got a strong political background in a party
(07:47):
different from that which is in government now, the new
government's entitle to think, well, will this person toe the line,
will this person stick with our line, or will they
drift away back into their own territory. And that's where
the obvious thing is submit your resignation. If the new
(08:08):
Minster accepts it, well that's the way it goes. If
the new minister doesn't accept it, well, in some way
that minister has given you an endorsement for a little
bit more security in your in your current term.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
How was Treuva Mallard still in Dublin.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Well you left to talk to mister Mallard or mister
Peters about that. But I look, I don't know where
whether Trevor Mallard or phil Goff submitted their resignation to
Winston Peters. I do not know. I, as you remember,
submitted my resignation with Collins because I'd been appointed to
a position by the previous Labor government that wasn't quite
(08:48):
in the same category as a high commissioner or ambassador.
But it's a courtesy to the incoming minister that you're
saying to him, Look, here's my resignation. You can tear
it up or you can you can accept it.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Because to that, I suppose to taxpayers, it really does
look like Trevor Mallard was simply being rewarded for loyalty
to the Labor Party above and beyond. His whole raise
on det was hardly diplomacy intact while he was within Parliament,
and yet there he is.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
He was, and I think there's a few comments on
his appointment. He was ever the most diplomatic person whatever
job he did exactly, but that was the decision of
the then government. The incoming Foreign Minister Winston Peters got
have questioned him about his loyalty or his professionalism. I
(09:47):
don't know whether he did or not, but your summation
is correct.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Thank you so much, as always for your insights. I
really really appreciate it. That is sir Don McKinnon, former
head of just about everything really and still with some
most excellent, excellent insight into the world of politics and diplomacy.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks at b from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as promised. We've been discussing Phil Goff, who
has been sacked as High Commissioner to London after Foreign
Minister Winston Peters was made aware of comments Golf made
which questioned Trump's understanding of history former Deputy Prime Minister,
former Minister for Foreign Affairs and former Secretary General of
(00:30):
the Commonwealth. But very much alive, very much in the
present now, Sir Don McKinnon joins me. Now, a very
good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Good morning to you too.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Was this an overreaction? Would you have sacked Phil Goff
had you been Foreign Affairs Minister?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
It would have come to that. Yes. These decisions are
never made easily because for they affect two people, obviously
the reputation of the minister and the government, and of
course the reputation of the ambassador or High Commissioner. In
my time nine years as Foreign Minister, I think two
(01:11):
or three were of these people of this caliber were
forced out of office, or suggested they leave office, or
something that they shouldn't have done. They are never easy decisions.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So you sex them well.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I think I suggested that Taisha. They wouldn't they wouldn't
be seeing out there supposed.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Contract, what for what sort of things had they done?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Ah, these were These were now twenty five years by
carry and I wouldn't wish to go into them again,
but they are. You just know, there's a line that
ambassadors and high commissioners should not cross. And maybe they
have offended the other government, the government of which they
are supposedly the guest of, And there's always a variety
(01:55):
of other issues that can crop up.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, I imagine it's I imagine you would not take
it lightly, but that everybody knows the rules. Sure, Phil Goff,
once he saw those comments starting to circulate, would have
known the writing was on the wall.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, yes, And I think by the very nature of
him asking the question he did one he can knew
what the answer was. And when you heard that little
bit of a snig around the room when he finished
the question, you knew that he was in pretty delicate territory.
And I think you know, noting that the response from
(02:34):
the Foreign Minister of Finland was far more cautious, far
more careful, given of course, you know, from Landers, Russia's
next door neighbor.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, absolutely so. A number of people have suggested that
this government is just sucking up to the US, that
it's that it's because the remark was made about Donald
Trump that he was hired, and Winston Peters said, it
will be if anybody.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
This is this is not the first person this has
happened to you. Yeah, the British ambass in Trump's first
term got pulled back home because of a comment that
was made, an appropriate comment about the President of the
United States and pulled straight back home. There wasn't any
question about it at all. So Phil Golf has been
(03:23):
around long enough and been in foreign affairs long enough
to know there are certain lines you just do not cross.
Had this comment come from someone else, I always think
that one political appointee become High Commissioner ed Hillary he
probably could have gone away with anything. People would have
just laughed. But Phil Golf is in different category.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah. When it comes to Winston Peters saying, if it
had been that comment made about the Prime Minister of
some more, he would have still been fired. Is that
correct as your understand, as you understand the role.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yes, Because the suggestion is it was a comment somewhat
belittling of the person they referred to in that in case,
it was President Trump. Now, going back to your earlier
question about are we just sucking up the United States? Look,
given the actions of the United States and key secretary
(04:22):
cabinet secretaries in the United States right now, you never
know what's going to happen from one day to the next.
Why put your neck out on a block if it's
not necessary. This is a time when I think every
country that deals with the United States has been very careful.
And this is not hiding from anything. It's just been
(04:44):
very careful about what you say and what you do,
because you are talking about the economic life of your
own country.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Was it just a smart ass one liner that he
thought I'd just show how clever I am amongst my
fellow left leaning comrades and within the room he'll be
kicking himself all the way back to Clevedon.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well, that's possible, and that's your diplomatic As I said,
when he made the comment, there was a snig around
the room as if to tending to agree with him
from maybe the kind of audience you're referring. But I've
spoken in Chatham House many times. It's it's no longer
quite the same secret enclave that it was known to be.
(05:31):
In fact, most people who speak at Chathamhouse now release
their speech notes. Yes, so the whole secrecy thing is
something that is more on the past and than the present.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, it was also being live streamed. He must have
known it, would you know that? Yeah, there wasn't any
secrecy around it. So in your time, who made better
diplomats career diplomats or political appointees? And why do you
appoint somebody who's a political appointee when you when you
have an entire department of career diplomats who understand the
noble art.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Well, there are there are places where a political diplomat
can be very, very useful. And again in my time
I did. I think I appointed a few of them.
And you tend to find the political person goes into
the position with quite a different view and quite a
(06:24):
different manner of dealing with things. If they are smart
and if they were successful in their previous political career,
they can be very very useful, in fact, very complimentary
to the career staff that are there. In some cases
I would say they were exceptionally better. That wouldn't mean
to say you would make a point of putting political
(06:46):
people everywhere. You pick the right place for the right
person at the right time. And when I was looking
for a diplomat for a particular position I won't say where,
it was the head of the department who said to me, well,
I think there's one of a one time political colleague
of yours who might be the more appropriate person. So
(07:09):
I saw that as being they were thinking pretty widely
themselves in those circumstances.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Interesting when it comes to political appointings, though, I think
you've got a view about what happens when a government changes.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Wellturally, naturally, if you're a political appointee, you should offer
your resignation to a new government, not necessarily a new
minister in your own government, but certainly to a new government.
Because you are the voice of the government. The government
expects you to be their voice, not anyone else's voice. Naturally,
if you've got a strong political background in a party
(07:47):
different from that which is in government now, the new
government's entitle to think, well, will this person toe the line,
will this person stick with our line, or will they
drift away back into their own territory. And that's where
the obvious thing is submit your resignation. If the new
(08:08):
Minster accepts it, well that's the way it goes. If
the new minister doesn't accept it, well, in some way
that minister has given you an endorsement for a little
bit more security in your in your current term.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
How was Treuva Mallard still in Dublin.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Well you left to talk to mister Mallard or mister
Peters about that. But I look, I don't know where
whether Trevor Mallard or phil Goff submitted their resignation to
Winston Peters. I do not know. I, as you remember,
submitted my resignation with Collins because I'd been appointed to
a position by the previous Labor government that wasn't quite
(08:48):
in the same category as a high commissioner or ambassador.
But it's a courtesy to the incoming minister that you're
saying to him, Look, here's my resignation. You can tear
it up or you can you can accept it.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Because to that, I suppose to taxpayers, it really does
look like Trevor Mallard was simply being rewarded for loyalty
to the Labor Party above and beyond. His whole raise
on det was hardly diplomacy intact while he was within Parliament,
and yet there he is.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
He was, and I think there's a few comments on
his appointment. He was ever the most diplomatic person whatever
job he did exactly, but that was the decision of
the then government. The incoming Foreign Minister Winston Peters got
have questioned him about his loyalty or his professionalism. I
(09:47):
don't know whether he did or not, but your summation
is correct.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Thank you so much, as always for your insights. I
really really appreciate it. That is sir Don McKinnon, former
head of just about everything really and still with some
most excellent, excellent insight into the world of politics and diplomacy.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
News Talks at b from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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