Jason Miles: President of New Zealand Principals' Federation not a fan of ACT's proposed school disruption policy

ACT wants teachers to have the legal power to remove disruptive students from classrooms and, in some cases, use reasonable force if they refuse to leave.

The party is also proposing fines of up to $3,000 for parents who fail to address ongoing behaviour problems.

They argue classroom disruption is harming student achievement and teacher retention, citing Education Review Office findings that many teachers deal with disruptive behaviour daily and lose significant teaching time managing it.

President of the New Zealand Principals' Federation Jason Miles joined Kerre Woodham to discuss the proposed policy. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carry Wood and Morning's podcast from
News Talks.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as we've been discussing. Act wants teachers to
have the legal power to remove disruptive students from classrooms
and in some cases use reasonable force if they refuse
to leave. The party is also proposing fines of up
to three thousand dollars for parents who failed to address
ongoing behavioral problems. They argue classroom disruption is harming student

(00:33):
achievement and teacher attention, citing Education Review Office findings that
many teachers deal with disruptive behavior daily and lose significant
teaching time managing it. President of the New Zealand Principles
Federation Jason Miles joins me now in a very good
morning to you, Jason.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Oh, Curer, Kerrie gotta be here.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
What do the teachers want? Because we accept that there's
a problem with disruptive students, we accept that there's a
problem with a lot of time being taken up dealing
with these children. What in the teacher's mind is the answer?

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Well, I think this policy announcement is very simplistic and
it's going to do more harm than good. There's lots
of reasons for that. Our teachers are already very skilled
at managing our children's behavior, but also those children that
come to school with anxiety and trauma, neurodiversity such as

(01:34):
autism ADHD, and also those children who live in material hardship.
So the teachers are already doing a great job trying
to manage all of that. Asking them to put their
hands on children to remove them from a classroom is
not the answer.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, some yr sixus you'd struggle to get out of
a classroom physically anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yes, And it's all about the root cause. As I said,
this is a simplistic solution put up by ACT for
a very complex problem.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
So what do you want.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
In the policy? There's no mention of the mental health
support these children need from counselors, psychologists or additional adult
teachers support in the classrooms. At the moment, for children
with severe behavior needs, the support that is offered by

(02:34):
the Ministry of Education isn't timely and it isn't accept
accessible because they are understaffed and underfunded. We have schools
and children Infarno waiting for up to twelve to twenty
four months for referrals for severe behavior or neurodiversity. And

(02:56):
that's just not on. That's where the support needs to go.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Look, I know that alls support when it kicks in
the ongoing resourcing scheme. When it does is an absolute
game changer for the child, the family, the school. But
is that what you're referring to when you say some
kids are waiting twelve to twenty four months for it.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
No, not just all students Carrier, it's students who are
just below that criteria, who have ongoing needs that aren't
adequately supported by our government. In the classroom, our teachers
are working really hard to support those children's needs, but
the lack of ed PZSICH, the lack of severe behavior support,

(03:41):
and the lack of funding for additional teacher ade assistants
for those students to access the curriculum is sadly lacking.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
I had a text from a teacher saying, and I've
heard this from the grandkids, when we had a disruptive
kid at the school. I'm a long time teacher. At
a primary school level, we are not allowed to remove
or touch disruptive students. We're required to remove the rest
of the class for their safety, and it happens far
too often. I think people would be shocked at the
level of disruption and behavior in classrooms. I mean, that

(04:14):
doesn't make any sense to remove all the kids because
we hear a lot about the needs of neurodivergent and
those kids who are struggling, and those kids who come
from shocking backgrounds, and we should, But what about the
good kids who turn up and who just because they
are good kids, miss out on being extended to the
very limits of their potential.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, and unfortunately it is a common occurrence for some
classes to need to be evacuated while a children a
child is being disruptive or trying to self regulate through
means that we don't want to see.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
But well, in that case, surely Paul Henry is right
that you get rid of the les and leave the
rest of the kids in the class learning.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Well, that's the current state that we're But we cannot
just say that we leave this child that's got these
needs out in the cold. When that child is going
through that, they do get removed once they are in
a state to be removed, But that's also up to

(05:23):
the amount of a senior leadership team support that each
school has.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
But if you've got a child who's done that once
twice three times they should not be at a regular school,
then should they?

Speaker 3 (05:35):
Well, that's a different conversation, Garry. You know, at the moment,
any child who's in zone for a class a school
is entitled to a place in a state school.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Even if that means sacrificing the education of say ninety
percent of the class.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
So once those students are at school, that's when the
needs need to be addressed and supported. As I discussed before,
that's the gap that we have. We do not havencillors
and primary schools. We don't have enough access to severe
behavior learning support teams and insights, and we don't have

(06:15):
enough teacher aide support in those classrooms. Once those needs
are identified, there are students who aren't able to stay
in a classroom. You know that they take off, So
what does the teacher do then us there's no other
adults in that classroom.

Speaker 4 (06:33):
As a philosophy, would it be better to have all
of that resource for those kids who need it because
you want to see them achieve to their potential as well?

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Would it be better? Was it wrong to have the
special schools where where you had people who were specialized
in dealing with those behaviors dealing with kids who have
the behavior, rather than expecting the children to be thrown
out of class and then come back and try and
settle down and try and get on with learning, you know,
several times a year.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
And that's, as I said before, an entirely different debate.
We do have some special schools in New Zealand. They
are mainly for ours categorized children, but as I said before,
there are a number of children just under that their
rating or scale that need that support. There are severe
behavior schools in New Zealand, but very few because over

(07:30):
time we've gone for the mainstream approach to for all students.
So you know, while this policy has is going would
do more harm than good. Has opened up this conversation
about the types of behaviors our teachers and schools and
principles are supporting.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Just in conclusion, Jason, it's just, you know, mainstreaming surely
is an ideology that's had its time, because you can't
make children all the same. They're foibles. Their differences there,
divergences are what makes us all unique.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Kerrie, I think that's a wonderful statement and that is
something that we've been debating about the curriculum that has
been the curriculum reforms. Every child is different, however, in
New Zealand, we're trying to create this box around what
we think the child should be. So yeah, there are
certainly many debates in education around that very point that

(08:31):
you've raised.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I'm sure we'll have them. Thank you, Jason, President of
the New Zealand Principals Federation.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
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