February 22, 2026 • 9 mins
The Government is providing police with the power to issue move-on orders as a tool to deal with disorderly behaviour in public places.
But, the Police Association says it can't always be the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.
President Steve Watt says these people on the streets have complex problems, include housing, mental health and financial issues - and Police aren't equipped to deal with these.
Minister of Police Mark Mitchell told Kerre Woodham that the Police Association had the same response to the gang patch ban, yet were able to act once the law was in place.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as we've been discussing the governments providing police
with the part you move on orders as a tool
to deal with disorderly behavior in public places. The Police
Association says it's not their job. People on the streets
have complex problems, including housing, mental health and financial issues,
and police aren't equipped and shouldn't have to deal with these.
(00:31):
Minister of Police Mark Mitchell joins me, now a very
good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Good morning, Carrie.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
He's right, isn't he.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Well I didn't hear what he said, but I know
the police associations in a funny space at the moment
because they just read that story about sixty percent of
police officers thinking about leaving the job. I mean, I
had a policing crea and of course everyone from time
to time thinks about pursuing something different. It's almost like
they want to make policing out to be not a
very attractive way of doing public service, and I don't
agree with that. I think that it is one of
(01:00):
the best ways that you can engage and do your
public service. So you know, and when we brought at
the gang patch being the same thing. The Police Association
sort of came out and said, ah, no, we don't
think the police will be able to op rationalize it.
But they were able to op rationalize it. They did
an outstanding job of it. So, you know, I don't
really know where the Police Association is coming from. They've
got a they've got an important role in job to do,
(01:21):
but they get it certainly in the legislation that we've
been forward brought for as a government, their predictions haven't
necessarily been very good.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
But at the same time, I would say that the
gang gang members are a different kettle offish too, so
the mentally unwell or rough sleepers.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, some experts police are experts.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
There are thousands of interactions every week with police officers
dealing with members of society that have got highly high
complex needs, including mental health, and they're very good at
triarging those They're very good at looking after those people,
get putting them in touch with the right government agencies
or social agencies that you know, police work right across
all of these and they've very experienced at doing it.
(02:05):
Quite so, the move on orders is we've got people
that are living on the streets. It is unsafe for them.
They're engaged in anti social behavior. They became the vulnerable people.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
They become targets themselves with drug dealers, et cetera that
use them to pedal their wares.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
It's it's not good for them at all. Most of them,
and my experience, Cairie, have got somewhere to go and sleep.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
They are rough sleepers.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
They're choosing to come in and live on the streets
and make the pavements their home. And the ones that
are genuinely homeless, then we will work, make sure that
we work to solve that problem.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Get them into some housing.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
But where do you move them hoven to? Well, that's
send them home and make them stay home, put them
under home detention.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Well where does where the rest of us do? What?
Speaker 4 (02:49):
What do the rest of us do? Do we live
on the streets? Do we live on the on the pavements?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
You know? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:59):
But so what I'm saying to is a lot of
these people have got places to go. They do have
places to go. This is a complete The people that
beat up these things, they make out that all these
people are homeless.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
That is not true at all. It's not even remotely true.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
The people that are genuinely homeless. Then the police are
working across a stakeholder group led by the Ministry of
Social Development to make sure that we do address that.
As a country, we don't want people to be homeless.
We want them to have somewhere safe and secure that
they can sleep, but we also as a country don't
want people living on the streets.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
They become a target.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
That the advice that I got on my stakeholder group
that we've very hard to reduce violent crime and the
CBD and we've had great success with that. We're also
dealing with the rough sleeping issuing that Saint John's brought
for the advice to say, these people get targeted.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It is an unsafe place to be, but it just
shows how ghastly it is for them, especially the young kids,
if they consider the streets safer than their home.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
I mean, well, well, and that's where the social services
have to engage, and many of them don't want to
engage with social services. But what we're saying is a
country it is we're no longer we're going to allow
people to be put at risk, to engage in antisocial behavior,
to peddle drugs, to urinate and defecate in public places
where families are going. We're actually going to take positive action.
(04:17):
We don't have the powers to be able to do that.
The move on Orders are going to be able to
provide those powers and we.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Want to get we want to fix the problem. Do
you want to be on?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Where do you move them on too? Like you've got
somebody who's outside begging. The shop owner says, I don't
want who sitting there. It's putting customers off.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
YEP calls o police.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
So the move on orders are yet to go through that.
It will go through a full parliamentary process and so
there'll be a full select committee process with submissions in
terms of making sure we get the legislation and the
best possible shape.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
That it can be.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
But at the moment, what's proposed is that the police
will have the discretion to tell the person where they
have to move from and the area that they have
to leave. If they go and try and set up
somewhere else on the street, then that same power exists.
And the whole idea of it is they'll soon get
very tired of being told that they cannot live on
the street, and at the same time they'll be engaged
(05:12):
with social services to actually identify what these people's issues are.
And by the way, this is not this is nothing new.
This is happening every day the police. I was with
the beat police down in Wellington Central recently, where they
know who their rough sleepers are. They have the keys
to their accommodation and they're offering escorting them and taking
them back to their accommodation at the end of the day,
(05:33):
but they don't have any powers to actually be able
to move them on and get them out of the
city center where they come in and they and they
sort of co locate and start creating all these anti
social issues and the behavior that we see. They become
targets themselves. Drug dealers use them to pedal drugs. You know,
they've people that come and drink alcohol and the CBD
(05:54):
and come out. Sometimes the rough sleepers are targeted by them.
It's not safe for them. That was the advice that
came forward from Saint John's. So you know, it's not
acceptable anymore as a country that we just say we
only let people make the pavement their home, and we
have to do something about that.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
And we are doing something about it, all right.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Normally you get wholehearted endorsement from me. But I'm just
torn on this one because I've met some truly beautiful
souls who who through no fault of their own, really,
you know, and sometimes it has been through fault of
their own through addiction. And then I've also met some crazed,
foul mouth, disgusting individuals who you know, who you just
don't want to be anywhere near. But you can't just
(06:37):
lump them all into one category.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I guess no.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
But look, I agree with you, Carrie, and I know
where you're coming from. But the question is this, do
you want people living on the streets.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Well, some of them are duster because they're agrophobic and
there you know, they can't be in four walls.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
So I just don't think it's acceptable for us as
a country to say that we're just going to accept
that people are able to live on the streets and
engage in all those issues and all those problems, and
so we have to be able to address it. And
one of the ways to address it, as you have
to have legislation that will support action to sometimes get
these people to engage with services because they refuse to
engage with services. That's a common there's a common profit.
(07:18):
But I agree with you that the human.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Side of us and all of us as kiwis, we're kiwis.
We care about people.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
You know, and that's not care is not something that's
reserved to any one particular group. In my experience, our
frontline police officers are some of those caring people. They are.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That's what I was thinking about when I was listening
to Steve like he knows that his officers have talked
to people, have talked to people and see them as
people and know that they're all different.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
So what do our police officers do when they see
someone that's a rough sleeper, there is in danger of
being a targeted themselves, is being prayed upon by drug dealers,
is engaging in antisocial behavior, has probably got a mental
health issue, and our police officers have got no powers
at all to be able to get them, to engage
with social services to get them off the street. What
(08:05):
do they do because at the moment, they can't do.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Anything unless the person is disorderly and disruptive.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, unless the person commits some sort of criminal offenion,
And we don't want them to come into the criminal
justice system. We want them to engage with social service providers.
We want them to be able to identify what their
complex needs are and we want to be able to
address those, but we don't have any powers at the moment.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
They can just live on the street. They can stay
on the street.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
So we can all go down there and we can
have a chat with them, and we can try and
find out their backstories and try to work out the
best way to help them if they don't want to
engage or they just want to live on the street.
And it doesn't matter how many conversations we have full
of goodwill, it's not actually going to achieve anything.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
We have to be able to have some powers. That
actually says as a country, know you can't sit up
and live.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
On the footpath. But by the way, here is all
the work that we can do. We can support you,
We can find a way of giving you a better
options of not coming down on the street. Now, a
lot of them just want to do that anyway, And
you highlight the fact that you know there's lots of
complex needs and things like that.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Mental health issues are definitely a factor.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
But the reality of it is, I think as a country,
we don't want to see people living on the streets anymore,
causing all the issues that the public have to deal with.
It's not that people don't want to make sure these
people okay, of course they do. Yeah, but there's nothing positive.
There's no upside to having them continue to live on
the streets.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Thank you so much for your time, Minister.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
For more from carry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks that'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Kerrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
He'd be as we've been discussing the governments providing police
with the part you move on orders as a tool
to deal with disorderly behavior in public places. The Police
Association says it's not their job. People on the streets
have complex problems, including housing, mental health and financial issues,
and police aren't equipped and shouldn't have to deal with these.
(00:31):
Minister of Police Mark Mitchell joins me, now a very
good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Good morning, Carrie.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
He's right, isn't he.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Well I didn't hear what he said, but I know
the police associations in a funny space at the moment
because they just read that story about sixty percent of
police officers thinking about leaving the job. I mean, I
had a policing crea and of course everyone from time
to time thinks about pursuing something different. It's almost like
they want to make policing out to be not a
very attractive way of doing public service, and I don't
agree with that. I think that it is one of
(01:00):
the best ways that you can engage and do your
public service. So you know, and when we brought at
the gang patch being the same thing. The Police Association
sort of came out and said, ah, no, we don't
think the police will be able to op rationalize it.
But they were able to op rationalize it. They did
an outstanding job of it. So, you know, I don't
really know where the Police Association is coming from. They've
got a they've got an important role in job to do,
(01:21):
but they get it certainly in the legislation that we've
been forward brought for as a government, their predictions haven't
necessarily been very good.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
But at the same time, I would say that the
gang gang members are a different kettle offish too, so
the mentally unwell or rough sleepers.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, some experts police are experts.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
There are thousands of interactions every week with police officers
dealing with members of society that have got highly high
complex needs, including mental health, and they're very good at
triarging those They're very good at looking after those people,
get putting them in touch with the right government agencies
or social agencies that you know, police work right across
all of these and they've very experienced at doing it.
(02:05):
Quite so, the move on orders is we've got people
that are living on the streets. It is unsafe for them.
They're engaged in anti social behavior. They became the vulnerable people.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
They become targets themselves with drug dealers, et cetera that
use them to pedal their wares.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
It's it's not good for them at all. Most of them,
and my experience, Cairie, have got somewhere to go and sleep.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
They are rough sleepers.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
They're choosing to come in and live on the streets
and make the pavements their home. And the ones that
are genuinely homeless, then we will work, make sure that
we work to solve that problem.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Get them into some housing.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
But where do you move them hoven to? Well, that's
send them home and make them stay home, put them
under home detention.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Well where does where the rest of us do? What?
Speaker 4 (02:49):
What do the rest of us do? Do we live
on the streets? Do we live on the on the pavements?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
You know? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:59):
But so what I'm saying to is a lot of
these people have got places to go. They do have
places to go. This is a complete The people that
beat up these things, they make out that all these
people are homeless.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
That is not true at all. It's not even remotely true.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
The people that are genuinely homeless. Then the police are
working across a stakeholder group led by the Ministry of
Social Development to make sure that we do address that.
As a country, we don't want people to be homeless.
We want them to have somewhere safe and secure that
they can sleep, but we also as a country don't
want people living on the streets.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
They become a target.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
That the advice that I got on my stakeholder group
that we've very hard to reduce violent crime and the
CBD and we've had great success with that. We're also
dealing with the rough sleeping issuing that Saint John's brought
for the advice to say, these people get targeted.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It is an unsafe place to be, but it just
shows how ghastly it is for them, especially the young kids,
if they consider the streets safer than their home.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
I mean, well, well, and that's where the social services
have to engage, and many of them don't want to
engage with social services. But what we're saying is a
country it is we're no longer we're going to allow
people to be put at risk, to engage in antisocial behavior,
to peddle drugs, to urinate and defecate in public places
where families are going. We're actually going to take positive action.
(04:17):
We don't have the powers to be able to do that.
The move on Orders are going to be able to
provide those powers and we.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Want to get we want to fix the problem. Do
you want to be on?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Where do you move them on too? Like you've got
somebody who's outside begging. The shop owner says, I don't
want who sitting there. It's putting customers off.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
YEP calls o police.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
So the move on orders are yet to go through that.
It will go through a full parliamentary process and so
there'll be a full select committee process with submissions in
terms of making sure we get the legislation and the
best possible shape.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
That it can be.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
But at the moment, what's proposed is that the police
will have the discretion to tell the person where they
have to move from and the area that they have
to leave. If they go and try and set up
somewhere else on the street, then that same power exists.
And the whole idea of it is they'll soon get
very tired of being told that they cannot live on
the street, and at the same time they'll be engaged
(05:12):
with social services to actually identify what these people's issues are.
And by the way, this is not this is nothing new.
This is happening every day the police. I was with
the beat police down in Wellington Central recently, where they
know who their rough sleepers are. They have the keys
to their accommodation and they're offering escorting them and taking
them back to their accommodation at the end of the day,
(05:33):
but they don't have any powers to actually be able
to move them on and get them out of the
city center where they come in and they and they
sort of co locate and start creating all these anti
social issues and the behavior that we see. They become
targets themselves. Drug dealers use them to pedal drugs. You know,
they've people that come and drink alcohol and the CBD
(05:54):
and come out. Sometimes the rough sleepers are targeted by them.
It's not safe for them. That was the advice that
came forward from Saint John's. So you know, it's not
acceptable anymore as a country that we just say we
only let people make the pavement their home, and we
have to do something about that.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
And we are doing something about it, all right.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Normally you get wholehearted endorsement from me. But I'm just
torn on this one because I've met some truly beautiful
souls who who through no fault of their own, really,
you know, and sometimes it has been through fault of
their own through addiction. And then I've also met some crazed,
foul mouth, disgusting individuals who you know, who you just
don't want to be anywhere near. But you can't just
(06:37):
lump them all into one category.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I guess no.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
But look, I agree with you, Carrie, and I know
where you're coming from. But the question is this, do
you want people living on the streets.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Well, some of them are duster because they're agrophobic and
there you know, they can't be in four walls.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
So I just don't think it's acceptable for us as
a country to say that we're just going to accept
that people are able to live on the streets and
engage in all those issues and all those problems, and
so we have to be able to address it. And
one of the ways to address it, as you have
to have legislation that will support action to sometimes get
these people to engage with services because they refuse to
engage with services. That's a common there's a common profit.
(07:18):
But I agree with you that the human.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Side of us and all of us as kiwis, we're kiwis.
We care about people.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
You know, and that's not care is not something that's
reserved to any one particular group. In my experience, our
frontline police officers are some of those caring people. They are.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That's what I was thinking about when I was listening
to Steve like he knows that his officers have talked
to people, have talked to people and see them as
people and know that they're all different.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
So what do our police officers do when they see
someone that's a rough sleeper, there is in danger of
being a targeted themselves, is being prayed upon by drug dealers,
is engaging in antisocial behavior, has probably got a mental
health issue, and our police officers have got no powers
at all to be able to get them, to engage
with social services to get them off the street. What
(08:05):
do they do because at the moment, they can't do.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Anything unless the person is disorderly and disruptive.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, unless the person commits some sort of criminal offenion,
And we don't want them to come into the criminal
justice system. We want them to engage with social service providers.
We want them to be able to identify what their
complex needs are and we want to be able to
address those, but we don't have any powers at the moment.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
They can just live on the street. They can stay
on the street.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
So we can all go down there and we can
have a chat with them, and we can try and
find out their backstories and try to work out the
best way to help them if they don't want to
engage or they just want to live on the street.
And it doesn't matter how many conversations we have full
of goodwill, it's not actually going to achieve anything.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
We have to be able to have some powers. That
actually says as a country, know you can't sit up
and live.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
On the footpath. But by the way, here is all
the work that we can do. We can support you,
We can find a way of giving you a better
options of not coming down on the street. Now, a
lot of them just want to do that anyway, And
you highlight the fact that you know there's lots of
complex needs and things like that.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Mental health issues are definitely a factor.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
But the reality of it is, I think as a country,
we don't want to see people living on the streets anymore,
causing all the issues that the public have to deal with.
It's not that people don't want to make sure these
people okay, of course they do. Yeah, but there's nothing positive.
There's no upside to having them continue to live on
the streets.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Thank you so much for your time, Minister.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
For more from carry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks that'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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