Full Show Podcast: 26 August 2026

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZB. Follow this
and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. The
big stories, the big issues, the big trends, and everything
in between. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons. Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well, g'day to you. Welcome into today's show. Great to
have you listening in, and thank you very much for
your company this afternoon. Matt Heath, how you doing? Very good,
thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Tyler Adams, welcome to the show. Everyone, 0800 8010 80
is the number. Give us a call. There's so much
coverage of the Dolly Parton passing. It's on four screens
that I can see right now.

Speaker 4 (00:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
I mean, she was beloved.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
She certainly was.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Internationally, not just for her music, but for who she
was as a person. Just an incredible positive force in
the world, wasn't she, old Dolly Parton?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, a very, very sad passing. And we're going to
be talking about that after three, by the way.

Speaker 5 (01:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Speaking of passing, if you want to run the half
marathon in the Emerson's Dunedin Marathon with me on Sunday,
13th of September, which will involve passing me, I imagine.
I have a code that will get you $ 30 off
the entrance fee for the Dunedin Marathon, the Edmonton Dunedin Marathon.
You just need to register at dunedinmarathon.co.nz and join the team.

(01:30):
Beat Heath. Then use the code BEATHEATH, all one word
in capitals. BEATHEATH. You'll be on my team. You'll get 25% off.
And if you run with me... You'll be in to
win a very special Emerson's prize pack, taproom voucher with $ 200,
born and brewed T-shirt, hoodie, magnet, a bunch of stuff. So, yeah,

(01:50):
if you're going to run the Emerson's Dead Eden half marathon,
why not run it with me?

Speaker 2 (01:54):
How good.

Speaker 6 (01:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
And what a marathon, what a place, and you get
to highly likely pass Matt Heath. Great segue, by the way.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, I wonder if it's going to have Beat Heath
written on my bib when I'm running.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
I think that's mandatory, isn't it? I mean, if it's
not happening, we can make that happen for you, mate.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
But what if someone comes up and starts, I don't know,
beating me with a stick? That's the price you've got
to pay. That's the price you've got to pay. They'll
be like, you were literally asking for this.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
It's like, kick me on your back.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (02:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah. So that code again, BEATHEATH. If you want to
get amongst, it's going to be a great event. Then
go to that website and use that code, BEATHEATH. Fantastic.
Right into this topic and today's show. So a Herald
story looked at one of the more difficult side effects
associated with antidepressants like SSRIs. So an anonymous woman prescribed sertraline,

(02:44):
after her mother died, says it dramatically improved her depression
and stopped her panic attacks. But within weeks, her libido
completely disappeared. So the challenge for her, she says, is
that the medication was clearly helping her mental health, but
that loss of libido made the decision to stop far
from straightforward. All of this as a new clinic opens

(03:07):
up here in New Zealand. They're offering specialised support for
Kiwis wanting to reduce or come off antidepressants safely and gradually,
with its founders saying there is growing demand for better
guidance and withdrawal for coming off those antidepressants, which hasn't
existed in this country as of yet.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
I know several people that are trying to get off
antidepressants and find it really hard, really hard to get off.
They needed them at one point, not sure if they
need them now. And I know people that have gone
off them and just had to get back on them.

Speaker 8 (03:40):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
There are 632,000 people on SSRIs in New Zealand prescribed antidepressants.
That was in 2024. So probably more than that, almost 13%
of the country, or roughly every eight and a half person.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
That's surprising to me. Just want to do the math
on that. Yeah, I think that math's correctly. But that
is surprising. One in almost one in eight people have
been prescribed SSRIs or other antidepressants.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
I've never been on them.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
No.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
I'm not saying that as a thing to show off about.
I've never been off them. I've definitely had my struggles
in my life. I read a whole book about it.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
But I've never been on them. But I see how
hard it is for people to get off them.

Speaker 9 (04:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
I mean, there's some people in my family and certainly
close to me that are on them that have been–
they've said it's been immensely successful. But I think for
some people that I know who sorted out what they
needed to sort out, that it was time to maybe
think about tapering off. That was a scary proposition for them.
Because then, and this is poor phrasing, but it was

(04:49):
almost like a crutch there that this medication was the
only thing keeping them sort of going. And as soon
as they thought about tapering off, they thought they were
going to go back to square one. And they just
needed that guidance or that help to say, how do
I do this properly? Because I no longer think, I've
got my life in order now and I'm far better
than I was. How do I get off this thing
to keep moving forward?

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, and when would be a good time in anyone's life? When,
you know, on a holiday when you want to feel good.

Speaker 10 (05:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
You know, when you're at work, you've always got something
stressful coming up. There's never a good time to go
through those kind of, you know, I guess, changes. You
don't know exactly what's going to happen.

Speaker 10 (05:25):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
So... I can imagine it would be very, very hard.
The interesting one about libido, because in this particular story,
so her libido drops off a cliff whilst she's dealing
with her depression, but that's not great for her husband.

Speaker 5 (05:39):
No.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Her husband's suddenly in a situation where his wife is
not interested anymore. So that can cause a whole lot
of problems.

Speaker 7 (05:45):
Can't it?

Speaker 2 (05:46):
Need a very understanding partner.

Speaker 8 (05:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
So I would like to hear your story on SSRIs.
What should people know? How hard is it to get
off them? And if you're on them, is that the idea?
Is the idea that you should be trying to get
off them?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Tell us your story. 0800 80 1080. What's your experience
been like? Good and bad. 9292 is the text number
as well. It is 12 past 1. You're listening to
Matt Heath and Tyler Adams.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
The big stories. The big issues. The big trends. And
everything in between. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons. Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
News Talk ZB, it is a quarter past one. We're
talking about SSRIs.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
So there is a massive growth of people being subscribed
or prescribed, rather, the SSRIs for things like anxiety and depression.
But there are some side effects that you've got to
weigh up when you prescribe those particular drugs. So if
you have been prescribed SSRIs, In the past or you're
on them now, how is that experience going for you?

Speaker 3 (06:48):
This text says, G'day fellas, 15 years ago I went
cold turkey on paroxetine after two years of taking it
because I was feeling like a zombie and I found
out it was only supposed to be a two-month course.

Speaker 8 (06:59):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
So how long? 15 years on a two-month course. It's
obvious people are left on these things for years when
they shouldn't be. I know a guy that's been on citaloflam. Citaloflam? Citalopram.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Citalopram, yep.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
Citalopram for 20 years. It's not working too well for him.
It was never supposed to be that long. See, I
can just see how that happens, though.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
See, you're on them.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
And then it's, you know, and that solves the problem.

Speaker 5 (07:27):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
At the time. But then getting off them is a
big problem. So when's the right time, as I was
saying before, to go through that?

Speaker 2 (07:34):
That's right. And, you know, part of that is this
clinic that's been set up to try and help people
wean off if they feel they need to.

Speaker 5 (07:39):
G'day, Tanya.

Speaker 6 (07:40):
G'day, Tanya.

Speaker 5 (07:41):
Yeah, hi.

Speaker 4 (07:42):
How are you guys doing?

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Very good. Really keen to hear your story.

Speaker 4 (07:46):
Yeah, I've been on Escalitopram for probably eight years plus.
And yeah, I haven't had any really bad side effects
with it at all. It's been quite good for me.
And the fact that when I was first prescribed it,
I was quite severely depressed. And it's just levelled me

(08:09):
out and kept me pretty much going. I did make
a mistake about three years ago and I decided to
go off it over Christmas. I simply ran out of
them and thought, oh, I'm in a good space, you know, happy,
but big mistake.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Right, so how quickly after you ran out did you
start to feel weird?

Speaker 4 (08:33):
About a week.

Speaker 5 (08:34):
Right.

Speaker 4 (08:34):
About a week. Yeah, and you sort of crash and burn, really.
You don't realise what it's doing, how it's helping you,
until you're not taking it and you think, what's happening
to me?

Speaker 3 (08:45):
And was that a lot of anxiety that came back, depression?
What came back?

Speaker 4 (08:49):
Incredible anxiety.

Speaker 9 (08:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (08:52):
Yeah, quite a bit of depression, but mostly anxiety. And
I just couldn't understand what was going on, what was
wrong with me. And it was a big learning curve
and I went straight back on it. But for those
who want to get off it, I mean, I think
it is a good idea. I'm a bit loathe to
do it because I'm still going through stuff in my

(09:15):
life at the moment where I don't think it's a
good time for me to come off it. But you know,
you can go to counselling and counsellors will help you
wean off safely. Doctors help you wean off safely as well.
And it can be quite a long process, depending on
how long you've been on it.

Speaker 5 (09:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Did it find you some time to find the medication
that worked right for you, Tanya, or you were lucky
that what you've been on worked pretty much instantly?

Speaker 4 (09:43):
No, the first thing I think they put me on
is like Prozac or whatever, you know, the medical name
for that is. And I didn't like that at all.
And it didn't help me. It didn't appear to help me. So, yeah,
this Escalitopram seems to be, I think it's pretty commonly prescribed. And, yeah,

(10:05):
it seems to work for me.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
What led you, you know, how did you reach out?
Who did you go to to discuss how you're feeling?
And what did it take to get to that point
where you thought, I've got to go and see someone
about this, how I'm feeling?

Speaker 4 (10:18):
Yeah, I just had, I didn't know where to go
or what to do, basically. I was like rock bottom.
And I just went to my GP and she did
the online depression test that they, I think they do
pretty stock standard, but she could tell from the time
I walked in, I was basically in tears and couldn't
even talk to her.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
Right. Was that an event that did that to you
or was it just life?

Speaker 7 (10:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:41):
No, it was an event, you know, and I just
run out of how she described it as, you know,
you have a a reserve tank of petrol and you
get down, so many things wear you down until you
get to the reserve tank and you don't realise you're
running on reserve until you're completely empty.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, and so they put you on and then you
finally got the right one. And how's life been? I'm
pretty good. Do you feel like you're missing out on
anything in life because you're on them as opposed to
being off them?

Speaker 4 (11:15):
No, I think I cope better when I'm on them.
I'm more level. I'm more able to be more logical
and not so reactive.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:23):
You know, I just find it helps me with everyday life,
to be quite honest. Just coping with things that would
normally throw me for a loop. I think I do
have quite high anxiety anyway. And for me, it's just
leveled me out and kept me pretty normal. Well, I'd
like to say normal.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Well, what's normal? It's hard to work out exactly what
normal is. But you said that you feel like you
should get off them. And why is that? Why do
people think that they should get off them rather than
just stay on them?

Speaker 4 (11:58):
Well, I think there's periods in your life where you
need them, but you shouldn't become dependent on them. I
think that's the big thing. And I think for me,
having had that blip where I went off them without
any medical advice was a big mistake. And it just
really gave me a big fright.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
So you realized that you were now dependent on them
because you didn't necessarily have a major problem that Christmas.
But you started to feel like you had one when
you offered them.

Speaker 11 (12:24):
There was nothing going on.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:25):
There was actually nothing going on in my life. It
was just, I just felt that things were starting to
deteriorate again and crumble in again. And there was no
logical reason. But I think, you know, with therapy and that,
you can also have like someone that can help wean
you off it and help you negotiate, navigate, sorry, with

(12:47):
normal life events without medication.

Speaker 12 (12:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:51):
But you have to be in that right space.

Speaker 5 (12:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (12:53):
You know?

Speaker 13 (12:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
But I can see that situation because whereas, you know,
like you look at that Christmas time and you have
that in your mind. And so deciding to parcel out
the space for you to get off them, you know,
do you want to do that on your holidays? So
then your holidays are in the Sanctuary State so you
don't get a rest from work. And when is there
a time at work or whatever when it's not stressful?

Speaker 4 (13:17):
Yeah, and that's the hard thing. Everybody's different. And everybody
reacts differently to withdraw from things. And I think that's
where you need medical advice. Or someone to talk to
and ring up and say, listen, I'm not feeling great.
You know, I've weaned off and I'm feeling pretty shit.
To talk to about it.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, so you weaned yourself off accidentally in the most
wonderful time of the year.

Speaker 12 (13:46):
Yeah, that was not a good year.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Tanya, thank you very much for your phone call and
awesome to hear that you found something that's working out
really well for you. So what's your experience? 0800 80 1080.
If you've been prescribed the SSRIs, did they work well
for you? Did you need to tape off? Did you
find something different? Tell us about it. 9292 is the
text number. It's 23 past 1. Life gets busy, and

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Speaker 14 (15:20):
So the rates cap on councils is real, it's coming
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What's the point?

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Well, no one lives in a suburb called Averages, right?

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The key of $ 34 is across the country. But if
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Back tomorrow at 6am, the Mike Hosking Breakfast with Bailey's
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Speaker 3 (15:57):
Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
26 past 1, there's been a big increase in Kiwis
being prescribed SSRIs. So what's your experience been with those
particular medications? 0880, 1080, is that number?

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Stuart, welcome to the show.

Speaker 16 (16:10):
Hi, how are you doing?

Speaker 3 (16:13):
Very good, thanks. We'd love to hear your story.

Speaker 16 (16:16):
Yeah, I've been on Stratilopram since 1995. So that's what
more than... well over 20 years. Um, I was put
onto it after a medical event in South Africa, uh, really,
really difficult, uh, work situation and, uh, prescribed that by
my doctor as part of, of, of what I went

(16:39):
through there. And I've been on it without any problems
for a number of years. Uh, yes, there are downsides
to just going off it. Or if you stop taking
it all of a sudden, um, then there are downsides
or side effects to it. So, uh, What the medication
does is it removes the peaks and the troughs. They're

(17:01):
not as sharp as they were before. But yes, like
one of your previous callers, if you go off it
all of a sudden without weaning yourself off it, then
there can be side effects or repercussions of that.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Have you tried to come off it, Stuart?

Speaker 12 (17:18):
No.

Speaker 16 (17:21):
No, I did go off at once by running out
of medication similar to the caller before, and that's not
a nice feeling. I've spoken to my doctor at length
about it, and he just said to me it's actually very,
very common. There are a number of high-performing executives in

(17:42):
this country that are on citalopram as a medication for
coping with the type of work that they do. So
I don't suggest that you even think about coming off.
You just take it as part of your normal medication
on a daily basis.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
So that's kind of what I'm doing. Do you mind
if I, I mean, how old are you if you
don't mind me asking, Stuart?

Speaker 16 (18:03):
I'm 63.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
So you've been on this medication for pretty much half
your life now.

Speaker 16 (18:09):
Yeah, since I was 40, I've been on it. And
I think if you are, dealing with high stress work
situation or you notice that you are battling to deal
with some of the pressures of life, then I don't
think it's a bad thing at all. I don't see

(18:29):
it as a crutch or anything like that. I simply
see it very much like an asthmatic who takes an
asthma pump to relieve the asthma symptoms. This is just
a medical situation that I use to make sure that
that I cope with everything that goes on in my life.
And if you have a high-stress role where you don't

(18:50):
work 9 to 5 and you work very long hours, yeah,
it is very easy to burn the candle at both
ends and find yourself running on empty. And that's my experience.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
We've got a text to hear, Stuart, who's been on
Silat Abram, like you are, and he says it turned
him into an absolute zombie. Wasn't sad anymore, but wasn't happy,
just existed. He goes on to say coming off was hell.
But have you found that? Do you find that you're

(19:22):
missing an edge? It flattens out the highs and the
troughs or whatever, but do you think that you've missed
out anything, Stuart? I mean, it's a hard question to answer,
isn't it, after 31 years?

Speaker 16 (19:33):
No, I don't think I have, but I can understand
where he's coming from, and I think at the end
of the day, That's why it's so important to be
talking to your doctor, your GP that knows you very well,
or someone who does counseling or something. If you're finding
that you are so-called missing out, I think it's really,

(19:54):
really important to find the right medication because citalopram is
not the only medication. There are many other medications. It
is important that you find the right one that works
for your body. If you find that it removes your
personality and you start becoming something that you're not, then
it's probably not the right medication or not the right
dosage for you. So the dosage, I mean, if you

(20:17):
change your weight, then your dosage needs to change too.
So you've got things like that.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
You've got to be really, really.

Speaker 16 (20:24):
Careful about it. But what I would say to the
caller that texted in, if you're finding that it's removing
the edge for you, it may not be the right
medication or the dosage may not be 100% right and
you need to go back to your GP and describe
the symptoms to him and let him look at either

(20:44):
alternatives or the dosage to make sure that you experience
life to the maximum.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
So you've been on it for 31 years, Stuart, and
you're comfortable just to continue on it, take it right through?

Speaker 17 (20:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 16 (21:00):
Originally, when I moved onto it, we were about to emigrate,
and it's a high-stress situation. I didn't have a job.
I was coming to a new country, all of those things.
So all of those things are a major medical event
or life event, that cause extreme stress and situations. So
that's how I got to it. But I think there
are other people, you know, facing a divorce or death

(21:23):
in the family or something like that. They're facing a
life event that makes them feel that the elephant is
on top of them. And I would rather have medication
that helps me feel that I'm on top of the
elephant and not the other way around. I'd rather be
on that than feel that my life is out of
control and I can't actually be happy and I can't

(21:44):
enjoy my life. So that's why I stay on it.
But then again, I go to my GP every year.
I have a checkup and we review the dosage. We
review the medication. We review how I'm going. And that's important.
That's just as important as anything else. It's kind of
like the same for me as going to the dentist
or the dental hygienist. You should do that every six

(22:07):
months to a year. Well, if you would do that,
if you're doing that for dental hygiene, you should do
the same if you're on medication like this.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Thank you very much for your call, Stuart, and for
your thoughts. And it's awesome that it's worked very well
for you over those 20-odd years. Thank you very much.
0800 80 1080 is that number to call, and 9292
is the text.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
We don't have time for it now, but after the
news headlines, I'll read this text from the guy that
was texting to say that the citalopram was turning him
into a zombie because the rest of the story is
quite interesting.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah, right, that's coming up. Headlines with Raylene on its way,
but taking your calls and stories, 0800 80 1080. Newstalk
ZB headlines.

Speaker 18 (22:45):
With Your Ride, New Zealand's number one taxi app, download
Your Ride today. A smoke-free advocate says Labour's smoke-free policy
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(23:08):
health risks, it's the most effective way to quit smoking,
which is much more dangerous. One person's been critically injured
in a quad bike crash in Ashley Clinton in rural
Central Hawkes Bay last night. The West Coast's orange heavy
rain warning has extended to include Westland until Friday and

(23:28):
grey and buller from tonight, with a break in conditions
tomorrow morning. Parts of Otago and Canterbury High Country are
under heavy snow watches from midnight. Cordons have lifted around
Potidoa's Mana College, where potentially volatile chemicals were found after
the Defence Force let off a controlled explosion at a
nearby park. Winton Chair Stephen Joyce and Director Guy Ferguson

(23:52):
resign over dispute with Chris Meehan. You can read more
at nzherald.co.nz. Back now to Matt Heath and Tyler Adams.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Thank you very much, Raylene. It is 23 to 2.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
So we're talking about the increased use and prescription of SSRIs.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
What's your experience been like? And this is on the
back of a story in the Herald. An anonymous user
said it helped her after her mother passed away. But
one of the side effects that was very difficult and
complicated to deal with was the loss of libido. And
going by the text, there's a lot of people facing that.
I mean, is that the balance that you need to face,
that it helps when it comes to the mental health?

(24:29):
And unfortunately, that's a side effect that you may need
to live with. Tell us about it. 9292 is the
text number. 0800 1080 is the number to call. You
mentioned that text before as well.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Oh, yeah. So Telepram turned me into an absolute zombie.
I wasn't sad anymore, but wasn't happy. I just existed.
That was the start of the text I read. This
is the rest of it. Coming off them was hell,
night sweats, brain zaps. That felt like an electric fence
inside your brain jolting you every 20 seconds for about
two weeks. At its peak, see, I had a mate

(24:59):
that was going through this. He was talking about those
exact electric fence-like zaps in his brain.

Speaker 5 (25:04):
Right.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Would never recommend them. Talk therapy is the longer path initially,
but the shortish long term. So what is the truth
in that? That's a complex one. So is it, you know,
obviously some people need it and there's no other way through.

Speaker 13 (25:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
But if you can at all face something down and
learn to deal with that, is that ultimately the better approach?
I mean, I don't know. I don't know anything about
it at all. I'm just saying, if you have an
event in life and it's terrible and it's made you
feel terrible, is it better to learn the skills of

(25:44):
dealing with grief and adversity and that kind of thing
head on? Or is it just as good to, you know–
take the SSRI to help you deal with it?

Speaker 2 (26:00):
It's a great question. And all I can think of
is my own experience. So after I was a reporter
at Pike River back in 2010, November, then not long
after that, the earthquakes hit in Christchurch. So both of
those events were full noise for me as a reporter,
dealing with a lot of stuff, a lot of grief,
and a lot of things that I saw during that time.
And I was just in this constant fight or flight.

(26:20):
There was something wrong with my nervous system. I was like,
this is not good. I'm not sleeping. I'm not functioning properly.
as I should be functioning, so something's wrong here, go
to the doctor and instantly they ran through a questionnaire
and they said, right, it sounds like you need some medication.
And so they prescribed me the Sertulin that a lot
of people are texting through. So I tried that for

(26:43):
about a month. But for me, the opposite happened, that
I was in a state of constant anxiety, but that
elevated my anxiety.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Really?

Speaker 2 (26:52):
And I gave it a good month because the doctor
just said, hey, look, it takes a little while for
this medication to work. We've got to get the dosage right.
Tried a few different things. But I got to the
point where I was actually having weekly panic attacks because
I think because of this particular medicine. So I said, doc,
I've got to come off this stuff.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
And what happened when you came off it?

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Uh i went back to that state of anxiety but
then we talked about lifestyle changes so i got prescribed
some stuff to help me sleep a little bit better
yeah and that was just a very short-term fix that
was for about a couple of weeks just to reset
that circadian rhythm and try and allow me to get
some sleep went back to going to the gym full-time
tried to sort out the diet and luckily for me
that is what worked that got me back down to

(27:30):
some sort of level uh And this is the strange
experience of these medications, right? That for me, that did
the exact opposite of what it should do. That elevated
me further and did not work for me at all.
It made my life considerably worse. Whereas in that case
for me, because I wasn't arguably dealing with a lot
of serious things that some people are, where lifestyle changes

(27:54):
for me was what I needed.

Speaker 13 (27:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
And so you were also moving away from the thing
that was really stressing you out, dealing with the whole
Pike River thing, right?

Speaker 2 (28:01):
That was a part of it, yep, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
So you were into a different..

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Different space, but my brain couldn't switch off that scenario
that I'd faced for that four months.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
But you see what I'm saying? If you were still
in there, there was another way to... Or you were
at least out of the situation that was causing you
the most stress.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
That is a very fair point, yeah. So tell us
your experiences, though. 880, 1080 is that number, and 9292
is the text. It is 19 to 2.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Your home of afternoon talk. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons.
Call 0800 80 1080. Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
It is 1622. Lucy, how are you this afternoon?

Speaker 7 (28:38):
Hi, mate.

Speaker 18 (28:39):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
Good, good.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
Very great to chat with you. So what's your experience been?

Speaker 4 (28:44):
Well, I was on that stuff for years, and I
thought it was brilliant.

Speaker 8 (28:49):
I had..

Speaker 12 (28:51):
A hell of a lot to have anxiety and depression.

Speaker 7 (28:53):
About, which we won't go into.

Speaker 12 (28:56):
But about three years ago, I questioned it big time
with my doctor, and I basically self-diagnosed myself with bipolar.
And finally, they let me change meds, and I got
straight off that stuff, went straight on to something completely different. Lithium,

(29:18):
by the way, if anyone's thing. And within three days,
it was like I had a new life.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Wow, three days?

Speaker 12 (29:28):
Literally three days. It was like turning on the light.
And I'd been on that, I can't.

Speaker 7 (29:33):
Even say it.

Speaker 12 (29:33):
I don't even want to say it. And like that
other caller said, you know, I went through a stage
of almost being hyper. Like it didn't calm my anxiety.

Speaker 13 (29:45):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 12 (29:46):
If any of my friends are listening, they'll freaking know
what they're talking about. Yeah, anyway, that's pretty much it.
I mean, all I can say is question, question, question, question,
question if it's not working and don't be afraid to change.
But usually the change can take up to six weeks
and that can be brutal.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because you go to your
doctor for the advice, but then you have to, it's
like all health things, you have to be an advocate
for yourself because they're dealing with a whole lot of people.

Speaker 12 (30:17):
With mental health stuff, which is what we're talking about,
it's expensive, but I tell you what, if I hadn't
gone to a psychiatrist and overridden my doctor, who I
love my doctor and she's great on other things, I
would still be.

Speaker 7 (30:31):
In this state, I reckon.

Speaker 5 (30:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 12 (30:34):
It's absolutely life-changing. My husband calls me the lithium energizer battery.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
And that's it. So for you, you're not going to
try and get off it? That's it for life?

Speaker 12 (30:48):
No, I totally expect it. In fact, here's the thing.
About a month ago, I was just coming back from
a trip in Europe, and I ran out of my
meds three days earlier. I hadn't calculated it right. And
I went three days without it and I felt myself
going down, man.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 12 (31:07):
So I know I'm completely and utterly an advocate for
if it's working, stay on it. If you go off it, well,
of course you're feeling good while you think about going
off it. You're feeling good because things are.

Speaker 5 (31:18):
Working, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Do you think it is the two-pronged situation, Lucy? A
lot of people are texting through on that, that yes,
you've got to go to the doctor and try and
get the medicine that's going to work best for you,
but also on the other side, having someone to talk to,
whether that's a therapist or a psychologist or a counsellor,
do you think that is part of it as well?

Speaker 12 (31:36):
I did a lot of that too, and yep, helps
a lot. But look, it depends on what your budget is. Look,
I'm all over the drugs, to be honest. I've had
so much rock bottom that I just, oh, whenever I
hear of someone who's going through a bad time and
horrific postnatal depression and, you know, husband dying and all

(31:57):
that carry on, which is kind of my story, I.

Speaker 7 (32:00):
Just go on the meds.

Speaker 4 (32:03):
Go on the meds.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
They help.

Speaker 14 (32:05):
They help.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
And you can wean yourself off.

Speaker 12 (32:07):
But you have to have a really good, like you
were saying, lifestyle changes. You have to be doing everything
right for yourself. Make sure you're going to the gym.
I mean, my kids also suffer a bit of anxiety.
None of them have had to go on meds, but
they're not afraid of it. A lot of people are
so afraid of.

Speaker 13 (32:26):
It, which is ridiculous, really.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Lucy, thank you very much for your call and stoked
to hear that that medication has worked so well for you.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah, I've never been on these things, and my concern
is that words, and look, this is probably one of
those naive concerns that they probably list and say you're
misunderstanding the situation, and this will sound like a pretentious
thing to say, but I'd be worried I'd lose my edge.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, and a lot of texters are saying that's exactly
what happens. And I will say, I think, you know,
this is just my experience, but it wasn't difficult to
be prescribed these things. When I went through it, and
I don't think much has changed, there's a questionnaire that
about four or five questions that they mark it down,
you know, how often do you have, do you feel
sad in a week, those sort of questions, and then
they start you on that process.

Speaker 12 (33:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
And sometimes I think it is fair to say if
you're not going through something clearly quite significant, then there
might be other options before you start on the medication
that you can explore.

Speaker 5 (33:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
And whether that is happening.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
It's interesting with big events in your life, because I
remember when my mum died, I was very upset, obviously.

Speaker 13 (33:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
It's terrible. She was my favorite person. But then it's
amazing that you can deal with it. And then you
look back now and you go, I've dealt with it.

Speaker 10 (33:38):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
And obviously that's not the same for some people that
they're not going to get through without help, right?

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (33:46):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
But there is a huge– ability in humanity for us
to deal with quite full-on things and then move on.
This text says, I feel sorry for all these people
dependent on these drugs. People need to face their problems
without lifelong drugs. It's just normal human life. This shouldn't
be normal. Yeah, but I mean, that might be coming
from someone who can face..

Speaker 13 (34:09):
Thanks.

Speaker 5 (34:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
I mean, there's very different scenarios, right?

Speaker 5 (34:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:11):
Because people that have been depressed, when they're not depressed,
they can't even get their head around what it was
like to be depressed.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
So if you aren't a person that suffers from these
things to the extent that you feel like you need
the drugs, you might not be quite understanding what people
are going through.

Speaker 13 (34:23):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
It's very hard to know. Yeah. Keep those teas coming
through on 9292. It is 10 to 2. You're listening
to Matt and Tyler.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Matt Heath, Tyler Adams, taking your calls on 0800 80 1080.
It's Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons. Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Newstalk ZB, it is 722, and we are discussing SSRIs.
There's been a big increase in people prescribed that medication
for a range of mental health issues. So what's your
experience been? On the back of a story about a
woman who needed it, and it helped her a lot
after the passing of her mother, but the libido... was
the massive side effects she had to deal with.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
We're hearing a lot about that. Logan, welcome to the show.

Speaker 19 (35:03):
Hey guys, how's it going?

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Very good. So what's your experience been, Logan?

Speaker 19 (35:10):
I was on that citalopram, like a lot of callers
have said they're on it, but my experience wasn't too
flash and somewhat similar to you with the panic attacks
and sort of fight or flight mode and... Yeah, like
you say, it's very easy to prescribe them, you know,

(35:31):
sort of with that questionnaire and that. It's sort of, yeah,
you can sort of get them pretty.

Speaker 7 (35:34):
Easily, you know.

Speaker 19 (35:35):
That's the first time I've been on them, you know,
and later on in my life I was on some
sort of as a kid, but in my later life
this is sort of what I've been on, and I
was only on them for about maybe four or five months,
and I ended up weaning off it because it just, yeah,
my experience wasn't all that flash.

Speaker 6 (35:56):
On it, eh?

Speaker 3 (35:57):
Could you feel, Logan, that that's what was causing this
intense anxiety? Could you, I don't know, I've never experienced,
but could you feel that it was the citalopram that
was doing that to you?

Speaker 19 (36:13):
It definitely heightened the level of anxiety and some of
the panic attacks I was going through. And like the
other caller said about the The zombie reference, I wouldn't
say I was a zombie, but definitely emotionally numb. So, yeah,
so if you're happy, sad, or whatever, you know, you
can go and do your hobby, and whether that's, I

(36:35):
don't know, driving cars or whatever, and you just wouldn't
feel anything.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Right.

Speaker 19 (36:39):
You know, you have a partner or family, you go
out or do whatever, and just nothing, eh?

Speaker 3 (36:45):
Yeah, right. And it must have been, you know, because
you've obviously reached out because you need some help. you're
given that help and it makes it worse. That must be,
I'm looking for a better word than disappointing. It must
be quite a punishing situation. So you needed help. The
help they give you has made it so much worse.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yeah, that's the one.

Speaker 19 (37:06):
And I think it can be probably quite traumatising for
a lot of people to get on those SSRIs because
they all work the same but different. And it could
take someone, by the time you get it, get it
through your system and find out if it's working or not.
You know, it can be like the other person said,
six weeks, you know, a couple months and then, oh,
this one's not working and then, you know, try another one,

(37:28):
try another one. So it can actually be quite a
long spin for someone to actually find one that works.
But my experience was I didn't want to try another
one after what I had experienced and been through. So,
I sort of, I personally feel like they're a little
bit of a temporary solution for some people. Some people

(37:49):
can be on them like other people see that works
for them, but for some people it can be a
temporary solution. And I've got a couple of mates that
have come off that as well. And I sort of
just attacked the problem myself. And, you know, I've seen
a psychologist and yeah, just work through things like that.
And like you say, your lifestyle, like, you know, good,
good sleeping habits and, exercise and just a good routine,

(38:12):
you know, to sort of break out of that fight
or flight a little bit and just, I don't know,
just trying to live again. That's sort of what worked
for me, but it definitely wasn't easy.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, Logan, thank you very much for your call and
very similar to my experience. And that was it, you know,
when it wasn't working for that particular medicine, the sertraline.
And they said, you know, six months of trying different stuff.
And I said, no, thank you. I'll try and sort
this out myself. And luckily it worked for me through
lifestyle changes and better sleep.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Well, I've got full lines and a whole lot of
tips coming through. So maybe we'll just keep talking about
this a little bit longer after the two o'clock break.
Here is some Dolly Parton. Here you come again.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
The big stories, the big issues, the big trends and
everything in between. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons. Newstalk ZV.
G'day to you.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Welcome back into the program. It is seven past two
and we have been talking about SSRIs. So this is
on the back of a story on The Herald highlighting
one of the more difficult side effects of antidepressant medications.
So the anonymous woman was prescribed Sertraline after her mother
passed away and says the medication significantly improved her depression

(39:25):
but stopped and stopped her panic attacks. But within weeks,
her libido disappeared. And it's certainly something facing a lot
of people on SSRIs in New Zealand. But taking your experiences.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
I've been on them after escaping a religious cult. My
doctor explained that your brain has been working on flight
mode for a long time. This depleted my serotonin levels.
It has helped me heaps. Rear panic attacks and anxiety.
That's from Jules. I needed them for escaping a religious cult.
There's a lot of reasons why people seem to be
on them. Like this one. Clive. You had an interesting incident.

Speaker 7 (40:01):
I had an interesting incident, yep. A life-changing incident. Afterwards,
I was put on some teleprime because I wasn't doing
troughs and waves. I was doing mountains and valleys.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
So tell us about the incident, Clive, because it was
a pretty interesting one.

Speaker 7 (40:22):
Oh, yes. I was the crew chief on the hot
air balloon accident in Cardiff.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
Oh, right.

Speaker 7 (40:31):
So, yeah, I watched the two young kids jump from
the basket and the other nine burned to death.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Oh, man.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
That is about as traumatic as you can get, Clive.

Speaker 7 (40:46):
Yeah, no kidding.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
And so..

Speaker 7 (40:48):
Yeah, I was on the teleprime for a number of
years after that. And I'd be about four years, I'd say,
four to five years. And then my wife sort of
saw some subtle changes in me and I was heading
back to what I was. And so she suggested I

(41:10):
go to the doctor and the doctor says I go
back to the psychiatrist and get reassessed. And he reassessed
me and said that my body was getting used to it.
and that I needed something else to rewire my brain.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
After the event, what were the days and weeks like afterward,
and were you offered help, or did you go and
seek out help?

Speaker 7 (41:39):
I was offered help. The police were very good. ACC
were excellent. My doctor was excellent. And, yeah, I was
offered help. I was offered counselling. But I'm very lucky
that my wife is a counsellor.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 7 (41:58):
She could pick up different things that I wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
What was the hardest bit of it moving forward that
you were hoping that the medication would help you with?

Speaker 7 (42:12):
Returning myself back to the person that I was before.

Speaker 6 (42:20):
And it did.

Speaker 5 (42:20):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
But how did you process, so you're on the medication,
but are you still ruminating and processing through the event?

Speaker 13 (42:31):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (42:34):
There's a number of things that will trigger it.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (42:36):
I could be driving past and see a paddock with
sprinklers in it.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (42:42):
The big black round sprinklers, and that'll give me a
flashback or whatever. The new drug that I'm on, I
can't remember the name of it, I'm sorry. If I
miss one night of it, one day of it, sorry,
that night I'll start having nightmares.

Speaker 9 (43:02):
Right.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
And has it been diagnosed as, I don't know, PTSD or?

Speaker 7 (43:07):
Correct.

Speaker 16 (43:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
Right.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
And can time heal that or is it, you know,
because you said you were coming right. So do you
think there was time that that was a part of
the healing process, Clive?

Speaker 7 (43:22):
Time is a part of the healing process, but I'll
never get better from it, the doctor said. It'll be
with me for the rest of my life, and yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
So the thalapram, it worked for a little while, but
then it stopped working.

Speaker 5 (43:39):
Did it?

Speaker 7 (43:41):
Yeah. I didn't notice any changes in myself. It was
my wife and kids that noticed the changes.

Speaker 13 (43:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (43:50):
And sort of suggested I go back to the doctor
and just have a bit of a word. So I
had a bit of a word with the doctor and
he says, ah, okay, time to go off to the
psychiatrist and get reassessed.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
What do you think would have happened, Clive, if you
lived in a time when you had experienced such a
horrific tragedy but there wasn't the medication around, you know,
the vast majority of our history? Do you ever imagine
what it would have been like trying to navigate those
the waters you've had to be in without that help?

Speaker 7 (44:22):
I would hate to think what it would be like. Horrendous.
It would just be horrendous. It changed me totally. The
actual event changed me. And the drugs have brought me
back to what I was. Not 100%, but back to
what I was.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah, I mean..

Speaker 3 (44:46):
Impossible to even imagine, you know, what you witnessed that
day from the ground, Clive. And yeah, I mean, it's
hard to know really what the words are, but I'm
glad that there was something there and the help was
there for you, even though I still imagine, and as
you say, it's been incredibly hard no matter what.

Speaker 13 (45:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Well, thanks so much for sharing your story, Clive.

Speaker 7 (45:12):
No worries at all. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
And really glad that that medication is working out well
for you, Clive.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
0800 80 1080. So what has your experience been with
the SSRIs?

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Tell us. 9292 is the text and 0800 80 1080
is that number to call.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
Those events are, what, 14 years ago?

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
And even with medication, you can tell, talking to Clive,
that they're so present in his mind.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Oh, impossible to comprehend.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
I mean, witnessing that.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, horrendous. Clive, thank you very much for your call.
It is 13 past 2.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Your home of afternoon talk. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons.
Call 0800 80 1080. Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
It is 16 past 2 and we're talking about the
increase in SSRI uses.

Speaker 13 (45:56):
It's certainly..

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Increased in recent years, the number of Kiwis taking it.
So what's your experience been? 0800 80 1080, or if
you want to send a text through, 9292 is that number.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
Hi guys, really interesting listening to Kuala's stories on SSRIs.
Here's hoping the current progress occurring in this country around
psilocybin continues at pace. I'm positive there is a very
valid place for this natural medicine in this area.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Dave?

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Yeah, I mean the studies into psilocybin are quite interesting
in terms of resetting your thought patterns, because a lot
of depression is remuneration. I mean rumination, sorry, and spiraling.
And SSRIs, they deal with the situation going on with
your serotonin levels, but they can go on for a

(46:42):
very long time, like we're talking to people. But some
of the evidence coming out of psilocybin studies and John
Hopkins and such is that it can, you know, a
sort of a trip, a guided trip in a clinic
can be a one-dose situation and massively change people, particularly
people dealing with end-of-life and grief and PTSD. It's very

(47:05):
interesting stuff.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
It certainly is, yeah. Thank you very much for that text. Emma,
how are you this afternoon?

Speaker 3 (47:20):
Sorry, Emma. We'll just try and get a better line
from you there.

Speaker 6 (47:23):
Sorry.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, we'll come back to you, Emma. Hannah, how are you?

Speaker 1 (47:26):
Kia ora.

Speaker 12 (47:26):
Kia ora. Hi.

Speaker 11 (47:27):
Good, thank you.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yes.

Speaker 11 (47:31):
So I just wanted to share my experience. I've been
on several different SSRIs for about 10 years now. One
didn't work very well, and then the other one. And
for me, it's been life-changing and really life-enhancing, and it's
been a really, really helpful thing. But my pet peeve is, unfortunately,

(47:55):
all these medications that can be really, really helpful are
being prescribed. But I think there needs to be a
lot more follow-up and encouragement into counselling or psychotherapy, any
of that kind of stuff, because I think they work really,
really well hand-in-hand. And if you've got enough going on
that you're needing to medicate for your mental health, then

(48:17):
I would say you definitely need to be doing that.
Some talking therapy as well.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Is that what was offered to you or suggested to
you when you approached a doctor?

Speaker 11 (48:29):
Yes, and it has been like, yeah, when I've had
kind of flare-ups, yeah, very much. I was talking to
my GP recently and she was saying, you know, the
research shows that... yeah, medication and talking therapies go really,
really well hand in hand. Um, so it's really surprised
me when friends and other people have just been put
on medication, but there hasn't been, um, yeah, there hasn't

(48:53):
been a recommendation to get counselling and stuff. Um, yeah.

Speaker 10 (48:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
And is that, is that counselling at your expense though, Hannah?

Speaker 11 (49:02):
Um, I've been lucky that I get funded through various means. Um,
But I think, and yeah, I'm not sure how up
to date this is, but through your GP, you can
normally get three sessions free. They can refer onwards and often, yeah,

(49:24):
with employer stuff as well, you can sometimes get funded
counselling as well.

Speaker 9 (49:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (49:29):
So there are, I think people, there definitely are a
lot of barriers to getting counselling and help that way,
but there's actually a lot more available if you know
where to look or if you can get in touch
with a good GP or a good social worker that
knows what's out there. there is a lot more support available,
I think, than people realize.

Speaker 5 (49:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:49):
Thank you for your call, Hannah. It is interesting. If
you're a doctor, right, so someone comes in and they
say they've got depression and you do the little test
or whatever, it'd be very hard to say no to them.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
That's right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
And so you put them on these things, but also
you're an incredibly busy person. It's also, as a doctor,
very hard to keep up with what's going on, I imagine.

Speaker 5 (50:10):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
So if they don't come back in and see you,
or they do come back and see you, you know,
as we had that call before, he said it's like
your dental inspection, you need it every six months or
whatever if you're on these kind of things. Then, yeah,
I mean, I can see how it could just drift
on for a very, very long time without anyone, you know,
trying some, you know, adding different things to it like

(50:32):
Hannah's suggesting.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Yeah, exactly. 0800 80 1080 is that number to call.
9292 is the text number. If you have been prescribed
SSRIs and you're no longer on them, keen to hear
your experience, how hard was it to get off them?

Speaker 3 (50:45):
Hey, guys, how great are these mental health conversations today
with men, especially a real sign of maturity for us
as a country? I don't think we would have had
conversations like this 15 years ago. Thanks, team, says Alison.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Yeah, a lot of honesty out there, which we love. Right,
it is 21 past two. More in a few moments.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
The big stories. The big issues. The big trends. And
Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons. Call 0800 80 1080
on Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
23 past two. Plenty of text coming through. This one says, G'day, guys.
I had to stop taking the SSRIs as I found
it gave me long QT syndrome, which can be very dangerous.
I only found out this by accident when I had
to have an ECG. And this one says, These type
of medications are becoming far too common and used as
a crutch. Life can be tough and you'll have bad days.

(51:39):
You have to deal with those sometimes and get on
with life regularly. rather than reach for the pill bottle.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Well, this text says the text saying people should just
toughen up is so ignorant and is why people who
are suffering don't reach out for help, sometimes with tragic results.
But you must be allowed to have the discussion. I
think a lot of times people just try and shut
down a discussion because there's going to be a position
where there's too many of these SSRIs being prescribed. There's

(52:07):
no doubt that's possible, right?

Speaker 1 (52:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
And there's probably a position, there's also a position where
there's too little, right?

Speaker 2 (52:13):
That's right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
So you've got to be able to have the discussion
about it. This text doesn't think so. Disgusted you would
belittle people's struggles by telling your story of getting over
your mother's death. Maybe you're just heartless. Have you thought
of that? Maybe you don't understand what a real human
is like. Have some empathy. Some people can't just get
over it. They need help. How effing dare you? I mean,

(52:35):
so like I was just telling a story about how
I was upset when my mother died and eventually I
looked back and at the time I couldn't imagine getting
over it. But then eventually over time I got over it.
But if you can't even, according to some people, have
that discussion and discuss how people deal with different events

(52:57):
in their lives, that doesn't take anything away from how
anyone else does. But if you can't discuss it without
someone saying they're disgusted at you, And so the only
discussion that you can possibly have is, no, people can't
get over these things. There's no one that can get
over events in life. Everyone has to go on SSRIs.
That's clearly not a sensible position.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
That's right. Yeah, there's a middle ground there.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
But it blows me away that you've shared your own experience,
and then they accuse you of having a lack of
empathy when they send through a text.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Like that, saying, where is your empathy? You're disgusting. I mean,
come on.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah, well, I mean, the thing is– You've got to
be able to understand it, and there's no doubt that
people have different experiences of things, right?

Speaker 18 (53:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:41):
There's no doubt that something– because say what Clive went through, right,
that we were talking about before with that horrific Carterton
incident with the hot air balloon, and he's witnessing that
horror from the ground.

Speaker 5 (53:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
That's huge. That's many magnitudes worse than what most people
will deal with their entire life.

Speaker 6 (53:59):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
So, you know, questioning how he deals with that is– is,
you know, I can get that, that you'd never question,
you'd never go to him or how you're dealing with it.
I don't think you should have dealt with it like that.

Speaker 5 (54:12):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Something most of us could never comprehend what it would
be like to be put in that situation. But then
to talk about work stresses, which was affecting my life.

Speaker 5 (54:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
Completely different that I could see a way out that
wasn't medication.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Or grief of losing family members, you know, losing your
parents is something that we nearly all go through, right?

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
And so everyone's going to deal with that in a
different kind of a way.

Speaker 20 (54:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
And so it's just interesting from the perspective of someone
that has never taken these drugs, you know, what they do. And,
you know, whether my life would be massively different if
I thought, well, you know, I've gone through this and
then someone had recommended getting on SRIs. Yeah. You're allowed

(54:56):
to have the conversation is what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
Exactly. And that is what we're doing. Emma, we've got
you back.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
How are you?

Speaker 21 (55:01):
Hey, I'm good. Thank you. I just want to, um,
send my appreciation and support to Clive. I just heard
him call up earlier. So that was my sister who
jumped out of the balloon and I just wanted to,
you know, yeah. So I really support him because I
can't imagine witnessing that it would have been awful. So yeah.
So he's really brave to speak up about it. Um,
especially for men's mental health.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
And so Emma, you know, how old are you? If
you don't mind me asking, um, Oh, yeah.

Speaker 21 (55:29):
Yeah, that's okay. I'm 39, so it happened when I
was 23, so it happened about 13 years ago.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
Right.

Speaker 21 (55:36):
Yeah, so it changed my life, but I can't imagine
witnessing it because I didn't witness it.

Speaker 5 (55:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 21 (55:43):
From what I heard, I talked to a lot of
people on the ground who witnessed it, and they said
it was traumatic and awful, and yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
I'm very grateful. Yeah, that's so lovely of you to
ring up and say that, Emma. That's fantastic. fantastic and
I'm sure Clive would really appreciate it but you would
have still experienced that moment when you first heard of
what had happened and that must have been just incredibly
traumatic right?

Speaker 21 (56:10):
Yeah it's still I can't ever forget it it's the
most awful thing I've ever been through I was hanging
out with her the night before we were talking about
nicknames and having a good laugh and then the next
morning she was gone it was just so sudden, you know?

Speaker 3 (56:27):
And how did you deal with the situation, Emma?

Speaker 21 (56:30):
I didn't deal with it well, to be honest. I
went a bit off the rails. But, you know, now
I run a lot and it helps. It really does
help me. Yeah, running does help.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
And has time helped?

Speaker 21 (56:46):
Yeah, time helps. Yeah, definitely helps.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (56:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
Well, I hope Clive has heard this because I think
that would mean so much to him.

Speaker 21 (56:56):
Yeah, I also met a random guy called Dean at
this site a few years ago on the Memorial Day.
And he told me that he tried to jump over
some live wires to save her after she jumped. And
that guy also must be going through a lot. So
to hear that Clive spoke up about it is really
brave and that he's taking the right treatment.

Speaker 5 (57:18):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
It's impossible to comprehend what yourself and Clive and that
other gentleman have had to go through, Emma. So you're
incredibly brave, as is Clive and everybody else involved, and
really appreciate you ringing in and saying that about Clive.

Speaker 5 (57:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
Yeah, no worries.

Speaker 21 (57:33):
I was just driving down to Queenstown and I heard
it and I was like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
Oh, well, you're obviously an incredibly good person, Emma, to
take that time to ring up and say that and
can't thank you enough for calling in.

Speaker 13 (57:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (57:45):
Thanks.

Speaker 18 (57:45):
Thanks, Clive.

Speaker 5 (57:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
Yeah, nicely said, Emma, and thank you very much for
your phone call.

Speaker 5 (57:51):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
0800 80 1080 is that number to call. We've got
the headlines with Raylene coming up. We'll be back in
a few moments.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Newstalk ZB headlines.

Speaker 18 (58:00):
With your ride, New Zealand's number one taxi app. Download
your ride today. Predictions of figures showing the gender pay
gaps grown indicate a confronting trend. Still minding the gap
says people need to be paid fairly, regardless of gender
or race. Auckland's mayor assures he's keeping his call after

(58:21):
Nationals U-turn on a bed tax, with its election promise
to introduce no new taxes. But Wayne Brown says not
having it would prevent Queenstown putting in public toilets. Auckland
Minister Simon Watts says it is still policy and just
requires replacing the words accommodation levy with alternative mechanisms. ACT

(58:43):
candidate Paul Henry is pledging to abolish the Climate Commission,
claiming it only writes reports, duplicates work and proposes ridiculous ideas.
A man's due in Palmerston North District caught on driving
charges after a crash at a boy racer event near
Fielding on Saturday extensively injured a young man. Wellington Zoo's

(59:05):
euthanised 11-year-old chimpanzee, Kitwe, deeming his injuries in a fight
with others in his troop were too severe. Critical minutes
lost before beach tragedy as police checked house.

Speaker 12 (59:19):
Options.

Speaker 18 (59:19):
You can get the full story at nzherald.co.nz. Back to
Matt Heath and Tyler Adams.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Thank you very much, Raylene. And we are talking about SSRIs,
the antidepressant medications. There has been an increase in those
medications prescribed. So if you've been on them, if you've
been off them again, what has your experience been like?
Tell us about it. 0800 80 1080 is that number
to call. G'day, Dean.

Speaker 13 (59:42):
Yeah, g'day, guys. How are you?

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Very good.

Speaker 16 (59:45):
Good.

Speaker 6 (59:45):
Hey, I just wanted to say, Matt, I didn't think
your Liverpudlian accent was too bad. It certainly reminded me
of an old mate I used to work with that
was a scouser. So don't worry about the haters.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
Well, Paul McCartney, what did I say? He said, Keith
Richards is still a pretty crazy guy.

Speaker 17 (01:00:05):
Best yet.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Some people said it sounded German, but, you know.

Speaker 13 (01:00:08):
It might have been better the first time.

Speaker 20 (01:00:11):
Thanks, Dean.

Speaker 6 (01:00:12):
Yeah, so, hey, guys, I'm 54, and when I was
back about 25, I started getting panic attacks and anxiety
and stuff, especially when I boarded planes and sometimes in
big department stores and supermarkets and stuff. And, yeah, I
was diagnosed, and they put me on fluoxetine, 20 milligrams,

(01:00:33):
I think.

Speaker 13 (01:00:34):
It was, of fluoxetine.

Speaker 6 (01:00:36):
And I just, you know, that was a game changer
for me because I thought my whole world was falling apart. Like,
I just didn't understand what was happening. And, yeah, that
was good for me for years. And then, what about,
what was it, 15 years ago? Yeah, we sort of
had a few traumatic events. We had the, like you, Tyler,
I had a close relative in the Pipe River.

Speaker 13 (01:00:57):
So, like you, I was over.

Speaker 6 (01:00:58):
There for those traumatic meetings.

Speaker 17 (01:01:00):
And..

Speaker 6 (01:01:03):
And not long after that, of course, we had the
Christchurch earthquakes, and my father had passed away. So, yeah,
it was all in such a short period of time.
And so, yeah, well, I had to revisit the doctor.
I was sort of having bad attacks and sleeping. But
they put me up to, just gave me two pills
a day, so they put me up to 40, which
is still just a medium dose. And I've been on
that for the last, well.

Speaker 13 (01:01:23):
What's that, 15 years.

Speaker 6 (01:01:24):
I've discussed it with the doctor, a couple of doctors
over the years, should I be trying to get off it.
But look, honestly, I don't see any bad side effects
that I know of. I mean, as I say, I've
been on it for the best part of 30 years,
so I wouldn't really know if I would be any
different without it. I think their response really was, hey,

(01:01:45):
if it ain't broken, don't fix it. Unless you really
want to, we can go down that track. But what
I wanted to mention really was... More recently, because sometimes
as part of that, I have to take... I do
sometimes still get a flare-up and get a panic attack,
and I take this thing called Ativan, which is a
stronger drink, which can be a little bit drowsy, have

(01:02:07):
a bit of drowsiness to it. But yeah, more recently,
about a year and a half ago, I thought I'd
give the CBD a go. And so I did the
online doctor's appointment, and I now take... both THC drops
and CBD drops. So I don't know if your listeners

(01:02:28):
sort of understand, but yeah, cannabis oil comes in two forms.
So you've got one that's got the THC in it,
which is the active ingredient, which you get in marijuana.
And then you've got the CBD, which isn't in that,
but it's just a cannabinoid sort of substance, which is
good for, well, a number of things. And so, yeah,

(01:02:48):
I found... So they prescribed me, I do three drops
of THC at night time under my tongue. So say
maybe at 10 o'clock at night, you just use a
wee dropper and you put the three drops under your tongue.
And I've found.

Speaker 13 (01:03:01):
It's really good. You can get to sleep.

Speaker 6 (01:03:04):
But look, by no means are you stoned or, I mean,
sometimes you stay up a bit longer, you know, after
you take any drops, you get sidetracked. But it's not
like you're stoned or anything, like people seem to think.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 13 (01:03:18):
But it certainly does help with sleep.

Speaker 6 (01:03:21):
And I've found I don't need to take, because sometimes
when I have real trouble sleeping, I've had to take Zopaclone,
which is a sleeping tablet. I haven't needed that in
a year and a half.

Speaker 18 (01:03:30):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:03:31):
And also, in the morning, I use the CBD drops,
which don't have the THC. And since then, I haven't
had a panic attack that I can think of.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
Right.

Speaker 13 (01:03:41):
I've stopped taking all Ativan.

Speaker 6 (01:03:43):
And I also don't know which one of the two
it is, to be honest, the CBD or the THC.
I've also stopped having to use Voltaren tablets for arthritis
I've got on my shoulders.

Speaker 5 (01:03:53):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (01:03:53):
So I just wanted to sort of put that in
there for some people that might well be it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
And is there any recommendations around, you know, taking the
CBD oil with the other medication?

Speaker 6 (01:04:07):
No problem whatsoever. You can take it with whatever other medications.
It doesn't interfere with any, well, at least that I
know of anyway. They took my medications into account.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:04:16):
But, yeah, I just thought I'd sort of mention that
because I just thought it's been quite life-changing for me.

Speaker 13 (01:04:23):
Obviously, there's a downside, which.

Speaker 6 (01:04:27):
Does worry me now because, of course, cannabis stays in
your system, even a small amount like that, for 28 days.

Speaker 5 (01:04:32):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 6 (01:04:33):
And so I just have these three drops at night
at 10 o'clock, say, but if I go to pick
up my grandson at, say, 4 o'clock the next afternoon
or the.

Speaker 13 (01:04:42):
Day after that, I get pulled over.

Speaker 6 (01:04:44):
I'm going to have to walk home with him.

Speaker 13 (01:04:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:04:47):
And the car gets locked up, and I have to
go to court to show them that I've got a prescription.
But you get fined first, and then the car locks
your car up first, which is, I think, the stupidity
of this law. But I'd just like people to understand
that for some people, yeah.

Speaker 13 (01:05:01):
That's how it would work.

Speaker 3 (01:05:03):
Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you for your call, Dean.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Seems to be beneficial for a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
I'm glad it's working for you. This text says, hey guys,
I've been tapering off this poison for 18 months. Still
have two years to go. Withdrawal symptoms to hell, even
with a long, slow taper. My doctor pushed and pushed
me onto these. With 15-minute question tick sheet assured me
they were easy to come off, lol. Look up what
SSRI-related PSSD and hedonia are.

Speaker 14 (01:05:33):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
And hedonia?

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
I'll look that up.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Yeah, me too. But two years to come off that
medication is a hell of a long time. Keep those
tips coming through on 9292. What has your experience been
with antidepressant medication or, in Dean's case, CBD as well?
Tell us about it. It is 20 to 3.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
And this says, hey, guys, seriously, surely 600,000 people taking
antidepressants is a shocking stat for the population of New Zealand. Yeah,
I mean, it's sad that 632,000 subscribed in 2024.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Hell of a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
I mean, that is concerning that that many people are
believed to need them.

Speaker 5 (01:06:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Right, more soon. It is 22.3.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
The issues that affect you and a bit of fun
along the way. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons. Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
It is 17.23 and we're talking about SSRIs, your experience
of them. 0800 80 1080 is that number.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
This says, hi, guys. I've been on citalopram for 25
years and now on enalaflax. Enalaflax. Oh, my goodness, Matt.
Pronounce these things properly, would you?

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
They're big names, though. I mean, they're not easy to pronounce.

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
Enalaflax.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
Nailed it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
Citalopram. For 25 years, enalaflax, due to poisoning of the
process of treated tumor due to chemical imbalance causing depression. Wow,
so depression caused by the process of treating timber. That's rough.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Yeah, I had no idea.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
So a bunch of chemicals get into your system and
they need some chemicals, further chemicals in there to help.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Yeah. Darren, you take a couple of SSRIs.

Speaker 5 (01:07:10):
Yeah, I take sertraline and a periperazole. I've been doing
it for about three years now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
What was that second one, perizole?

Speaker 5 (01:07:18):
A periperazole. I can never pronounce it. A-R-I-P-P-E.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
RA. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:07:26):
Z-O-L-E, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
And what got you going to the doctor to discuss?

Speaker 5 (01:07:33):
I had a suicide attempt, and they put me on
some stuff called risperidone, and I had a bad reaction
to that and had to go to hospital again, and
then they put me on Sertraline and the one that
I'm on now.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
So how did they put you on that, Darren? Did
you reach out after what you'd been through, after the incident?

Speaker 5 (01:07:57):
Yeah, I was in hospital and they said, do you
regret what you did? And I went, no, not really.
And then took it from there and went through therapy
and I'm still going through therapy now and taking the
medication and it helps me. I've been diagnosed with OCD
recently and intrusive thoughts. So every day is a battle,

(01:08:22):
even with the medication.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:08:25):
It's still a bit of a battle, but I definitely
need it. I tried stopping it for a little while,
and it all came back again.

Speaker 8 (01:08:32):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
And so it's a battle that you said with the medication,
it's a battle you're winning, Darren.

Speaker 5 (01:08:37):
Yes, it kind of makes it. It sounds weird, but
you start stressing out, and then it feels like it stops.
The medication stops it, and then you can help you
deal with it a lot better.

Speaker 3 (01:08:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:08:49):
Rather than, and it's, yeah, like I said, it's been
a battle. And for years, you know, I was boozing
and partying and stuff like that and just sort of
really ignoring my problems until it came to a head.
Did the classic Kiwi guy push all your feelings down?
Then it came to a head and, this medication, there
are side effects. I take another one at night called quetiapine.

(01:09:11):
It helps me sleep and that's a hard one because
you crave carbohydrates all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
So you can put on a bit of a weight
with that one?

Speaker 5 (01:09:21):
Yeah, put on a bit of weight with it but
I don't think that one's an SSRI but the other
two I'm taking are And they've definitely helped me out
over the years. I don't really see myself not taking them.

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):
Yeah, well, if it's helping you fight the battle, then,
you know, and we've talked to a lot of people
that have been on these for a very, very long time.
So do you feel yourself rebuilding your life, Darren?

Speaker 5 (01:09:44):
Yeah, sort of. It's, yeah, like I said, it's a
bit of a struggle. Yeah, that's really hard. Unless someone's
got OCD... I don't think other people actually understand because
I've had people just say, just don't think about it,
just get over it. And it's not quite as easy
as that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
No, it's very hard for people not to understand other
people's mental states and what it's like to be behind
your eyes looking out. Darren, are they giving you additional
support rather than just the medicine?

Speaker 5 (01:10:17):
Yes, they are. I see a psychologist, I see a psychiatrist,
and I see a therapist. once every couple of weeks
for the therapist, once every three months for the psychiatrist
and the psychologist. I've actually, I think I've got one
more to go, I think, and then over with that.
But I did, with the psychologist, I did a lot of, like,

(01:10:40):
cognitive behavior therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (01:10:43):
I was having trouble sleeping and stuff like that. So,
you know, this medication, I believe, doesn't cure what you've got,
but it helps you handle things. what's coming to you,
you know, when you start getting these thoughts and so forth.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Had you received any help or reached out for any
help before, you know, your attempt, Darren?

Speaker 9 (01:11:04):
No.

Speaker 5 (01:11:05):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
No.

Speaker 5 (01:11:07):
I was just bottling it all up and then just
drinking and drugs and so forth and not really doing
anything about it. And then, like I said, it just manifested.
And I thought people were following me. I thought there
were cars parked outside my place watching me.

Speaker 9 (01:11:22):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:11:23):
The homeless guy across the road, I used to think
he had a camera film. And I'd see things that
weren't there. It was really, really weird. Like if you
said this to me 30 years ago, I'd say, nah,
you don't know what you're talking about. I don't need
any of that. But it was definitely, definitely, definitely needed.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
And now with the medication, can you understand the thought
process that led you to think that the homeless person
was filming you? Is there a remnants of that mindset
still in there, Darren?

Speaker 5 (01:11:57):
Yeah, there still is. Every now and again I'll see
a car and wonder, but the stuff that I'm taking
helps you manage it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:12:07):
And yeah, I'd be pretty much lost without it. I
can understand some people... Yeah, everyone's different to what they take.
So I can understand some people a bit dubious about it.
And I do know there's a lot of young people
that I've met that are taking Sertraline. I mentioned to
a friend, she was only in her 20s that I

(01:12:28):
was taking it. She goes, I've been taking it for
six months. There are a lot of people from what
I found out taking it that surprised me.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
And do you think for people that were in the
position that you were in before you'd reached out to help,
Do you understand why you didn't reach out to help?
Did you think that there was no help there or
you were just being that kind of Kiwi male that just.

Speaker 5 (01:12:50):
Doesn't reach out? I thought I was on my own.
I sort of cut myself off from family for no
good reason, just bad thoughts. And then got support of
the family. Family and support from your friends is a
big one and it might be uncomfortable for some of
your friends to understand. um i found me personally i

(01:13:13):
found my friends that were in there i'm in my
50s my friends that are in my 50s understood understand
but i noticed that the younger generation like my friends
in their 30s and 20s had more of an understanding
and more empathy um than the than my generation yeah
right i mean it's towards it yeah which was which
was really good because i could talk to I can

(01:13:34):
talk to my friends, but then I could have different
conversations with the younger generation just because they've been brought
up differently to how I was brought up.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
I imagine, Darren, similar to the frog in the water
that's rapidly increasing in temperature, that you know something's wrong,
you're not quite sure why your brain is rebelling against you,
but it slowly creeps up and up over time, which
makes it more difficult to say, actually, I'm at the
point where I need help. I imagine there's a big
point there where you think you can solve it.

Speaker 5 (01:14:05):
Yeah, well, I was just ignoring it, but I didn't
realize I had OCD, and there's different forms of it,
like mine's the intrusive thoughts. And then just with the
delusional disorder on top of that, it just sort of
amplified everything. And then abusing substance, and that makes things
even worse. So it's been a long, long, long go

(01:14:27):
of it, but I'm getting there.

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
Well, I'm so pleased to hear that. And also, Darren,
thank you so much for ringing up and telling your
story because there'll be people listening that, you know, hopefully
that you'll inspire to reaching out for help a bit
earlier than you do.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Well, I hope so.

Speaker 5 (01:14:44):
And, like, there's always help there. And, you know, you
get a lot of people that go, oh, people are selfish,
that have tried to top themselves. Well, if you think
about this, they think they're so alone. People think they're
so alone in the world. that all they can do
is kill themselves, that's a horrible feeling to have. It's
not selfishness. It's just that people feel that lost. And

(01:15:08):
you need to open up and talk to people. If
you're going through this at the moment, you're not sure
what's going on, just talk to people about it, and
you'll get the help that you need.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
Well, thank you so much for talking to everyone that's
listening today about it, Darren. Really appreciate your call.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
Yeah, great call. Thank you very much. Right, back very shortly.
It is eight minutes to three.

Speaker 1 (01:15:28):
The issues that affect you and a bit of fun
along the way. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons. Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
News Talk ZB, it is 5-2-3. Quick couple of texts
coming through. This one, G'day Champs. Quick shout out for
having this convo and the nation's callers calling up and
being vulnerable and honest. I'm a typical 37-year-old Kiwi bloke
that enjoys a good piss-taking, but these situations and discussion
are real and someone will be listening in the country
needing this push to get help in the right direction. Also,

(01:15:58):
up the whas.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
Yeah, up the whas. Yeah, I mean, these sort of SSRIs,
they're an incredibly complex issue, aren't they?

Speaker 8 (01:16:06):
They are.

Speaker 3 (01:16:07):
And that's why it's been great to have this chat.
You know, 632,000 New Zealanders are on them or prescribed
them in 2024. Is that too many people on them?
I mean, probably. There's probably people that are on them
that it's not helping them or they should get off.
But when you hear... what they've done for people like
Darren who just called in or for people like Clive

(01:16:30):
that rang in before, you also think, thank goodness they exist, right?

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 3 (01:16:36):
I mean, that call from Darren was just, I mean,
just what he's going through. He needed to be helped.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
And thank God they were there for him.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
And there wasn't going to be any facing it, you know,
that was going to help him, so. It's just a
tough one, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):
Certainly is.

Speaker 3 (01:16:57):
I'm not sure what the answer is.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
Yeah, but it was a great discussion, and thank you
so much to everyone who gave us a call and
text through. And just a reminder, if you need a
bit of help out there, the first point of contact
is to visit your GP. There's also websites and numbers
available if you need help, mentalhealth.org.nz. If you need a talk,
text 1737, and you can call 0800 543 354. There

(01:17:19):
is help available for you out there.

Speaker 3 (01:17:22):
And here's a bit of Dolly Parton, love is like
a butterfly.

Speaker 5 (01:17:24):
Beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
Love is like.

Speaker 9 (01:17:26):
A butterfly, a rare and gentle thing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
The big stories, the big issues, the big trends, and

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
Very good afternoon to you. Welcome back into the show.
It is six past three.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
So I woke up this morning to find about the
passing of Dolly Parton. Of course, you will have heard
about it. I'm looking at multiple screens that we have
in the studio, all with tributes to Dolly Parton across
the many news channels around the world. An absolute global superstar.
Love for her music, but love for who she was
as a person as well. And there's been tributes coming

(01:18:12):
in from everywhere, but there was this interesting post from Eminem.
that I've just been reading. So he posted a tribute
to Dolly Parton, and when he was being inducted into
the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2022, Dolly
Parton congratulated him on the honour. and sent him this
note on this special dolly paper. And it says this.

(01:18:37):
Even though I don't know a lot about rap music,
she said, I've come to know that you are the
very best at it. Aside from that, I hope what
I have to say will not seem weird or strange
to you, but I've always felt some unexplained connection to you,
like I know you somehow. I had hoped to meet
you at the show, but you know how nuts those
things are. Personally, I hate them, and I miss my children.

(01:18:58):
but maybe someday we'll meet. In the meantime, keep doing
what you're doing because you do it so well and
no matter how complex your world may be, just know
you are very special and you touch people in ways
you don't even know. How about that? And then Eminem
posted this letter. for the first time, and under it

(01:19:21):
he said, I'm sorry we never got a chance to meet,
but getting this note from Dolly really had an impact
on me. She definitely didn't have to take the time
to do it. Even for a kid who mostly listened
to rap music, she was an icon, a superstar in
every sense. Rest easy, Dolly, and thank you for the
kind words.

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
How beautiful was that? I mean, doesn't that sum up
Dolly Parton? That is a gorgeous message to Eminem.

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
Yeah, and as he said, she didn't have to.

Speaker 1 (01:19:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:45):
But isn't that odd to think of, you know, because...
because some of Eminem's songs were pretty offensive, you've got
to say.

Speaker 5 (01:19:53):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
And, you know, touched on a lot of issues. But,
you know, she took the time to write a little
message to him. And obviously she had a very broad
love of music and a broad understanding of the entertainment
industry and wanted to send that little note to Eminem.
So good on old Dolly Parton, eh?

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
Yeah, that is beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:20:11):
She's one of those people that, you know, doesn't have
skeletons in her closet since she's passed away, whatever the
opposite of skeletons in your closet keep coming out.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
Yeah, yeah. Golden through and through, Dolly.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Tell you what, Tyler. Tell you what. There's one thing
that Dolly Parton 100% isn't, and that's AI generated.

Speaker 13 (01:20:30):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):
AI would never be able to generate such a unique musician, songwriter,
and human being or character as Dolly Parton.

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
So very well said, Matt Heath, which brings us on
to this topic right now. AI music. It is in
the headlines today. This is after Australia's recorded music industry
will bar tracks wholly generated by artificial intelligence. AI from
official charts as burgeoning. Generative technologies threaten artists' livelihoods. This
is according to ARA chief executive Annabelle Hurd. She said

(01:21:05):
that today. So the crackdown comes as a variation of
Madonna's pop hit Like a Prayer, created by Australian producer
DJ Josh Fowers, using AI-generated vocals and drums, has spent
16 weeks in the Australian top 20. Have a listen.

Speaker 9 (01:21:22):
When you call my name, it's like a little prayer.
I'm down on my knees, I wanna.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
Take you there.

Speaker 9 (01:21:30):
In the midnight hour, I can feel your power. Just
like a prayer, you know I'll take you there.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
So that is causing quite a lot of controversy. It
peaked at number two on the Australia and Record Industries
Association Top 20 Australian Singles Chart in May and remained
in fourth place on Tuesday. But that particular song, yes,
it samples Madonna, but it heavily uses AI for the
drums that you're hearing in the background, the vocals that
you're hearing over top.

Speaker 3 (01:21:58):
There is zero talent put into that at all. You know,
you're just using prompts. If you're using prompts... you're not
doing anything. You're not doing anything if you're using prompts.
The fact that Australian radio would even play this is disgusting.
And I would hope in New Zealand, hey, we're on radio.
Stop playing it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
God. Enough of that AI slop.

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
It's the truth. How hypocritical I was just saying. I
was just about to say. The fact that Australian radio
would even play it. And I certainly hope that there'd
be no New Zealand music radio stations that would That
would program AI slop like that. Second point, the greatest
bit of that Like a Prayer song by Madonna is

(01:22:42):
the bass line by Guy Pratt, who was an incredible,
incredible session bass musician who turned up. And the song
was written, but this musician just came up, it came in.
And played a bass line that was just way too
good for the song.

Speaker 8 (01:23:00):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
And he put his artistry– who put his ass? He
did put a lot of ass into the track. A
lot of ass.

Speaker 19 (01:23:06):
You can hear it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
A lot of bass. But he put his artistry into
the track. And that's his point of view. He brought
that to it on a song– that was, you know,
it wasn't written by Madonna, it was written by some
other people, but Madonna bought her personally to do it.
And just for, you know, a cover version's one thing, but,

(01:23:28):
Learn to play a freaking instrument. And someone's celebrating that
they have made this version of the song. You have
not done a single thing.

Speaker 5 (01:23:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:37):
There's no effort involved.

Speaker 9 (01:23:38):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
It's feeding that song into an AI generator, and then
that's pumping out some vocals and some drum bass.

Speaker 3 (01:23:44):
And all it has done is taking sounds and ideas
that have been ripped from creative people and just spewing
out there. No one should be allowed to make money
from that. And no one should play it. It's disgusting slop.
As Rick Rubin said, it's got no perspective. It grosses

(01:24:08):
me out. And I think we need to start shaming
people that are throwing AI slop into the world and
pretending it's something. You certainly shouldn't be able to monetize it.
There can be no copyright on AI. There can be
no copyright on AI because it is not created by
a human being.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Yeah, soulless, you reckon. So what do you say? 0800
80 1080. How do you feel about this decision from Australia?
Should we be doing the same? And do you care
if music is created by AI? If you've heard AI
songs online or what is playing on Spotify at the moment,
how do you feel about this? Do you agree with
Matt Heath? Tell us. 0800 80 1080 is that number
to call and 9292 is the text number.

Speaker 3 (01:24:46):
You know, you know, you take Dolly Parton. You know,
when she wrote I Will Always Love You, you know,
she was in her 20s and she wrote I Will
Always Love You and, you know, they wanted to buy it.
Elvis Presley wanted to record the song but she was like,

(01:25:08):
I've written this song and I want to release it
myself and bring my personality into it.

Speaker 10 (01:25:13):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):
And so she's a songwriter.

Speaker 1 (01:25:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:25:15):
She could have taken the money. She wanted it herself.
She released that incredible version. A lot of people know
the horrific Whitney Houston version from the Bodyguard soundtrack, but
the best version is the one by Dolly Parton. That's
a story. That's someone's life. It was about her split
with her partner and mentor, Porter Wagner. It came from somewhere,

(01:25:38):
and that's art, and you should be rewarded for art.
You should be shamed and humiliated and put in stocks
and have rotten fruit throwing at you for spewing AI
slop into the world.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
It's that emotional response though, right? I think of all
the songs that I dearly love in my life, but
my emotional response to that song, and it is there,
but that is different to your emotional response, probably different
to many others. Emotional response. Could I ever get an
emotional response from something I know? is created from AI.
I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (01:26:08):
I just don't think me as a human being would
listen to that and say, oh man, that gets me
in the heart or that makes me think of something
that happened in my childhood.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
It's just not going to happen. It always looks.

Speaker 3 (01:26:17):
Backwards as well, AI, because it's just taking what humans
have produced and spewing it around and throwing out the
most disgustingly vapid version of it. Unfortunately... A lot of
people are willing to just ingest that slop, you know,
just suck it up and to the point where it
went to number two on the Dirty Australian chart.

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
What do you say? Oh, 880, 1080 is that number
to call. It is a quarter past three. It is
18 past three, and we're talking about AI music. Australia
has clamped down with the recorded music industry. They will
bar tracks wholly generated by AI from official charts. This
crackdown comes as a variation of Madonna's pop hit, Like
a Prayer, created by Australian producer DJ Josh Fowers. Using

(01:26:59):
AI-generated vocals and drums, it's been 16 weeks in the
Australian top 20.

Speaker 3 (01:27:03):
He didn't do anything. Just so you're saying his name,
he didn't do anything. So someone else wrote the song.
he threw some prompts and he threw it out. So
his name should be nowhere near that. Absolutely nowhere near
the situation.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
I'll just cross that off my wee list there. He's gone.
He's gone. No more DJ whatever his face was.

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
What a dork.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
9292 is the text number, but taking your calls 0800
80 1080. Eric, your thoughts?

Speaker 13 (01:27:30):
Oh, hi.

Speaker 17 (01:27:32):
Personally, I'm fine with the AI music. I listen to music,
it just makes me relax. That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:40):
Yeah, well, hang on a minute. But, OK, you're fine
with AI music, but do you think the person that
produces AI music should get paid for producing the AI music?

Speaker 17 (01:27:49):
I don't really... Well, it depends on how the person
uses the software to build the music. I'm guessing they
will charge them.

Speaker 3 (01:27:58):
Well, how do you mean they were charging what?

Speaker 17 (01:28:03):
Well, I don't know, but, I mean, personally, I'm OK
with the AI music.

Speaker 3 (01:28:10):
Yeah, but the question is, so do you think, so
music can generate money, right? So a successful song generates money.
So do you think that someone that's made AI music
should be able to make money from it?

Speaker 17 (01:28:25):
Well, I think AI is the future. Everyone can generate
AI music. So it should be okay if they want
to charge, everybody.

Speaker 7 (01:28:33):
Can be charged.

Speaker 3 (01:28:35):
Well, no, hang on a minute. So, if you, Eric,
if you took a prompt, right, and you said, because,
I mean, there's no skill at all in making AI
music at all. You just say some prompts, right? You
say some words. You just print some words in, right? So,
if you made … a piece of AI music and
then you put it up, I don't know, on Spotify,
do you think that you should make money from that?

Speaker 17 (01:28:56):
Well, I put it in my info.

Speaker 16 (01:28:58):
Why not?

Speaker 3 (01:28:59):
Well, because... For a start, AI has just absolutely stripped
all of human music artistry for a bunch of generations
without asking, gone through and stripped it, and then it
just throws that back together and spews it out. So
it hasn't earned, in my opinion, hasn't earned the right.

(01:29:23):
The person that's prompting it hasn't earned the right to
make money because they haven't really created anything, and AI
hasn't earned the right To use that music.

Speaker 17 (01:29:32):
Well, I mean, when you put a poem to create
a music, you still need to put, you still use
your poem skills.

Speaker 3 (01:29:39):
But there's no skill in prompting. What's the skill in
prompting compared to learning to play the guitar, learning to sing,
learning to even program in logic? Where's the, you know,
what skill have you got there in prompting?

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
No skill.

Speaker 13 (01:29:55):
Well, I don't know.

Speaker 17 (01:29:57):
I mean, in the future, just like everyone can create
their own music. So I don't know that people will
like it or not.

Speaker 3 (01:30:04):
And is that a future that you're excited about, Eric?
Or do you think that there is reason to protect
artists and creative people and humanity's ability to express themselves?

Speaker 17 (01:30:15):
Oh, I mean, it just depends on the people listening
to the music. I mean, personally, I say I listen
to the music just for the entertainment, make me relax.
If the music is fine, it makes me happy. I'm
happy with that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
What do you do for a living, Eric?

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
You there, Eric?

Speaker 18 (01:30:33):
Oh, no.

Speaker 2 (01:30:33):
Eric's gone. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:30:34):
He doesn't care.

Speaker 13 (01:30:35):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:30:35):
He doesn't care where the music is made. He just
listens to it, and he thinks that's the future. So
from Eric's point of view, AI is coming, and it's
going to astroturf the music world.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:30:49):
And so just sit back and relax and don't care.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
Here comes the AI tsunami of slop and get ready
for it. I mean, it sounds like you get some
sort of emotional response from it. I don't know why
you can. I mean, if it makes you relax, is
that an emotional response? Makes you happy? I don't know.
Isn't music deeper than that for most of us?

Speaker 5 (01:31:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:31:11):
Yeah, I mean, as I keep saying, Rick Rubin said
it doesn't have a perspective. And maybe because I have
at some point in my life been a musician, I'm
particularly precious about this. But I think that there is
something to be said. Just don't take the shortcut. It's
like people that spew out these essays and they've jumped

(01:31:33):
the step from learning something to just throwing it out
there and then pretending that they're smart. They're like, hey,
look what I wrote. You didn't write anything. You didn't
have any perspective. You didn't have. And you come to
any conclusions, AI has thrown it out. And people put
these up there like they're an incredible person. They've done this, right?
It's the same with music. You haven't done anything.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:50):
There's a con about it.

Speaker 3 (01:31:51):
You haven't learned to play guitar. You haven't learned to
play piano.

Speaker 5 (01:31:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:31:54):
You haven't. You haven't risked anything. You haven't put in
the time. So there should be zero reward.

Speaker 2 (01:32:01):
Yeah, you've got to earn it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:02):
As far as I'm concerned. You know, you can do it.
Go for it. Go for your life. But you should
not be in any way celebrated or rewarded for it.

Speaker 13 (01:32:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:32:11):
The phone lines have lit up. What do you say, though?
0800 80 10 80 AI music. Should it be banned
off our charts like the Aussies are doing? And do
you care if it is AI created? And if you
want to send a text, 9292 is that number. It's
24 past 3.

Speaker 1 (01:32:24):
26 past three. Jeremy, what's your thoughts? Good afternoon, gents.
I totally agree with what Matt is saying. Music is
a snapshot of.

Speaker 3 (01:32:32):
Someone's hard work at a point in time that.

Speaker 13 (01:32:38):
Has generated success.

Speaker 10 (01:32:52):
Put a lot of effort in, and obviously taken the
risk in life to get where they are today. I
think the only exception, I think, sorry, just coming back
to that point, that I think AI is.

Speaker 1 (01:33:05):
Making people stupid.

Speaker 3 (01:33:07):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:33:09):
And sick, and sick, because everybody's just typing everything into
the keyboard without actually thinking for themselves.

Speaker 5 (01:33:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:17):
And the fact that people are texting and saying, actually,
prompting AI music is a lot harder than you're making
it out. You're simplifying it. Yeah, well, is it as
hard as learning to play the piano? Is it hard
as writing some lyrics that mean something to you from
your personal experience? The idea people can sort of leapfrog
the creative process. And with a few prompts and then

(01:33:42):
claim this sort of even being the same conversation in
terms of the worth of the art. I just can't
see how people can do that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:52):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:33:54):
The only slight exception that I would say is that...
Throughout the night, there is a bit of talkback, and
there was one radio host that played a couple of
AI songs. Now, the only exception I'd say to it
is if some person has generated a song purely off

(01:34:17):
their own bat without rehashing somebody's hard work that they've
already done. And I don't know if that's even possible.

Speaker 3 (01:34:24):
Well, not from using AI because it's trained on other
people's hard work and humans' hard work and graph. But
I don't have a problem with someone making a fun
little joke song for them and their friends or, you know,
using AI stuff like that. Go for your life. It's
just when people try and put it on the charts
and pretend it's a music career and try and make
money from it. That's when it's wrong.

Speaker 13 (01:34:44):
I totally agree with you.

Speaker 3 (01:34:45):
Yeah, if it's a joke, go for your life. Absolutely.
But just don't pretend it's art.

Speaker 2 (01:34:52):
Do you think there's going to be pushback on it, Jeremy,
or do you think people are going to get sucked
into some of this stuff and they think it's creative?

Speaker 10 (01:34:59):
I think over a period of time it'll just be
like everything. It'll just blend into society and it'll just.

Speaker 13 (01:35:04):
Be the new norm.

Speaker 10 (01:35:05):
It'll only be the smart ones that realise where it's
originated from.

Speaker 3 (01:35:12):
Going back to your thing about getting dumb, I was
watching a thing, it was an example of dogs, right?
Our dogs will just go to the door. You may
have a dog flap or another way they can go around,
but they'll just go and stand in front of a
door and go until you let them out. And then
they lose the ability to just go around the couch
and walk down the hall and go out because they

(01:35:32):
can just go and someone opened the door. And that's
what AI is doing to humans. They're just going and
it's opening the door for them. And as a result,
they're becoming more and more pathetic. It's the poodle-ization of humanity,
if you ask me.

Speaker 10 (01:35:48):
I mean, I see it through the kids' handwriting. You know,
I don't even know to what extent kids handwrite now
because they just use the computer. Well, using the computer
makes things look all nice, but handwriting is what leads
you to be intelligent, to be thinking and writing at
the same time rather than this rubbish of just You know,

(01:36:10):
like we just need to go back to basics in
life with these kids of getting them to handwrite. You know,
there's plenty of time in life to learn the computer.

Speaker 13 (01:36:18):
That's easy.

Speaker 9 (01:36:19):
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:36:20):
I mean, these things where people are saying, you know,
you see all these ads saying you need to learn
Claude now. You need to get on board and learn AI.
You don't. You can learn that instantly. It's stupid. I mean,
anyone can use it, right?

Speaker 18 (01:36:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:36:33):
What you need to do is learn how to think
and build up your brain and your strengths. I mean,
if we give AI to kids too early, they just
will not learn. It's like working out in a gym.
The muscles just won't be there. Anyone can work out
how to use AI at any time in their life.
You need 15 seconds.

Speaker 8 (01:36:53):
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:36:53):
Thank you, Jeremy.

Speaker 2 (01:36:54):
Thank you for your call. A couple of tips coming through.
This one says, I make AI-generated music quite regularly and
make reasonable amounts of money off it. There is art involved,
this person says, by taking old and boring songs and
remastering it for a new audience. But they're not remastering it.
You're just feeding it into AI and making AI remaster
it for you. But I think there's a difference, right?

(01:37:16):
When I look at and I see this pop up
online how Moby and Daft Punk create some of their
amazing songs, but they use samples. But their ability to
find a small part of a song from the 50s
or 60s and multiple bits of those songs, and then
rewind it and slow it down and then formulate that
into a kick-ass track. That is creativity.

Speaker 3 (01:37:38):
Just pumping those old songs into AI and saying, can
you please do what Moby or Daft Punk do?

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
Where's the creativity in that?

Speaker 3 (01:37:45):
Yeah, I'm not going to hear a positive word about Moby,
but yeah, I get what you're saying with Daft Punk.
Daft Punk are artists. Absolutely artists. You know, and someone's
bringing up myself, Marcel Ducamp. And look, we'll talk about
Marcel Ducamp in his urinal after the news headlines.

Speaker 2 (01:38:03):
All right, that's coming up next. It is 29 to 4.

Speaker 18 (01:38:14):
Te Pāti Māori' s unveiled its tax policy, making the first
$ 30, 000 earned tax-free and adding a wealth tax, alongside promising 97%
of Kiwis will pay less. The Greens say they're disappointed
by ACT's election promise to abolish the Climate Commission. Co-leader
Chloe Swarbrick says the Commission needs more teeth and should

(01:38:37):
remain independent.

Speaker 2 (01:38:38):
From Parliament.

Speaker 18 (01:38:40):
The Immigration Minister says as it stands she has confidence
in the NB boss Nick Blakely. Parliament's Privileges Committee has
found the agency misled MPs in the past over a
failed immigration border tech upgrade. An escorted convoy has left
Milford Sound with a section of State Highway 94 closed
due to avalanche risk. It's expected to remain closed tomorrow.

(01:39:05):
Children aged six months to five years can get influenza
jabs next flu season, funded by Pharmac from next April.
Woolworth sales hit $ 8. 49 billion as margins come under pressure.
Read more at nzherald.co.nz. Now back to Matt Heath and
Tyler Adams.

Speaker 2 (01:39:24):
Thank you very much, Raylene. Do you care if music
is generated by artificial intelligence? Oh, 800-80-10-80.

Speaker 3 (01:39:29):
Yeah, because there's a song that was being on the
Australian charts that was completely AI-generated, and it was a
version of like a prayer from Madonna. Just some knobby
DJ huffed it through AI-generated And all these people, like
there's some IT knob that's coming through here going, saying
it's ignorant to say that AI is easy to use.

(01:39:51):
Typical IT. IT departments have been shoving Copilot and that
kind of rubbish up our butts for so long.

Speaker 1 (01:39:57):
Right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:39:58):
And then they go, you know, IT person texting in
and talking about efficiency, get out.

Speaker 1 (01:40:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40:04):
Get out, mate.

Speaker 2 (01:40:05):
Well, you think that's self-perseverance, but AI is coming for you,
IT man.

Speaker 3 (01:40:08):
Yeah, well, IT is about just protecting your job. You
try and create a smoke screen. Tell everyone that. the
latest Microsoft product is going to make your life better.
And then just watch everyone wrestle with it.

Speaker 12 (01:40:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40:22):
You know, that's, that's what IT does.

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
The amount of IT guys I've seen Google when they
come across a problem that they don't know how to solve.
And they just pretend like they've got 40 years experience.

Speaker 3 (01:40:30):
And then they throw the word IT at you. You're like,
you know, this guy saying I've been IT for 40 years. Oh,
you're amazing. You're amazing. You know, that, that means, you know, you, you, you,
There's no conversation. An IT guy says that AI music's great.
So there's no conversation to be had. Same people that
think Copilot is great. Anyway, hey, so I was talking

(01:40:51):
about the difference between art and stuff. And people might
say that Madonna was just pop music, right? But pop
music in the 80s is very different from pop music now.
And I get the idea. People have talked about AI
creates slop. but it only really competes with stuff that
was already pretty much slop already, right?

Speaker 5 (01:41:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:41:09):
So a lot of the charts in Australia are probably
slop already. You look at Rick Beato go through the charts.
A lot of the stuff that isn't AI sounds like AI.
But I think there's moments of absolute brilliance in pop music,
and often it is just a session musician that will
turn up and play on a song and just change

(01:41:31):
it so much. that, you know, in a way that
AI never could do. So this is the baseline for
Like a Prayer by Madonna. And it is so much
better than it needs to be. Listen to this.

Speaker 1 (01:41:47):
It feels like crying.

Speaker 5 (01:41:50):
I close my eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:41:52):
So the baseline's been turned up.

Speaker 1 (01:41:54):
Oh God, I think I'm falling.

Speaker 3 (01:42:04):
Here we.

Speaker 1 (01:42:11):
Go.

Speaker 2 (01:42:12):
Iconic.

Speaker 3 (01:42:14):
That's Guy Pratt. That bass line.

Speaker 2 (01:42:18):
That riff there, that's what you call that. I mean,
that is the iconic part of the song, right? As
soon as you hear that, everybody knows.

Speaker 3 (01:42:23):
Well, there's so many different ways that that bass line
could have been played. The level of syncopation that he's
bringing to it, the artistry that he's bringing to that
is so much better than the song deserves.

Speaker 2 (01:42:34):
Yeah. Great example.

Speaker 3 (01:42:39):
I mean, all this bit's just silly. But here we go. Anyway,
I learned how to play that once. It was great.
But I've digressed.

Speaker 2 (01:42:53):
That's a hell of a bass line, though.

Speaker 7 (01:42:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:42:54):
Was that slightly different for the second chorus? It got
even beat a little bit more.

Speaker 5 (01:42:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:42:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:42:59):
No, no.

Speaker 2 (01:43:03):
That's a great example, though.

Speaker 3 (01:43:04):
I mean, Madonna had nothing to do with that. She
probably wasn't even there for the recording session.

Speaker 2 (01:43:08):
Oh, 180, 1080 is the number to call. G'day, Thomas.

Speaker 17 (01:43:12):
Hi, how you going, Tom?

Speaker 2 (01:43:14):
Yeah, very well. What's your thoughts?

Speaker 20 (01:43:17):
Uh, so with the AI music, I definitely think that
people should be aware of music's AI. Like, I think, uh,
Spotify have a little disclaimer if a song's AI or not.
So it's kind of consumer's choice, supply and demand. If
you want to listen to a song that happens to
be AI, you should have the right to listen to it. Uh,
but if you don't want to listen to AI, you
have that disclaimer, you should have a little bit of both. Um,

(01:43:38):
I've actually kind of looked into making some AI, my
own AI music. So, um, Basically, it was just a
bit of fun. I decided to come up with lyrics
about Christopher Hipkins. I just named the song Napkins, and
I got it written on Grok AI. And then I
picked two songs I'm particularly fond of, like Sabaton's Soldier

(01:44:01):
of Heaven or Lord of the Lost Lorelei, and said, look,
give me a combination of these two songs in musical style.
So I matched the lyrics that I'd created and two
songs that I'm fans of, And now I'm listening to
more AI music that I've made for myself than other
music now because almost every song is tailored exactly to

(01:44:22):
what I want to hear. It's combinations of two songs
I like with lyrics about things I'm passionate about. And
you're far more likely to listen to songs like that
than you would do a song for someone else's.

Speaker 3 (01:44:35):
Well, OK, I've got two words for you, Thomas. Jimi Hendrix.
No one knew that they wanted Jimi Hendrix. until Jimi
Hendrix appeared and was Jimi Hendrix. If people had gone
through and described what they wanted, it never would have
been Jimi Hendrix because that would be impossible for anyone
to come up with, right? So for music to move
forward and just expand the mind, then I believe it

(01:45:01):
has to have a human involved because if I just
describe what I wanted over and over again, then what
happens is I will never move forward and I'll never
be surprised.

Speaker 8 (01:45:12):
Yes, that is true.

Speaker 20 (01:45:14):
And I guess that's also the point, though, that I'm
not a musician. I can't play any musical instruments. So
if I wanted this particular song, unless I spend years
going out there, getting mates who could be in a
band who would all agree to do exactly the song
exactly how I wanted it to be, that song wouldn't exist.
So I can listen to a song that's tailor-made for me,

(01:45:34):
that I enjoy it, that, to be honest, if no
one else liked that song, it wouldn't matter.

Speaker 3 (01:45:39):
See, I don't have a problem at all with that, Thomas.
Unless you put it out there and tried to get
credit for it and tried to make money off it.
And then I'd have a problem. If you're just making
it for yourself, then go for your life.

Speaker 20 (01:45:52):
Yeah, and that's why Spotify is famous. So people should
be aware.

Speaker 8 (01:45:57):
I don't think we should ban AI songs.

Speaker 20 (01:46:00):
I just think there are people that, hey, if a
song is made of AI and I like it, I'll
listen to it.

Speaker 13 (01:46:04):
You have the right.

Speaker 20 (01:46:06):
But if you are anti-AI and you think, no, I
think it's taking away from genuine artists, then you should
have that warning.

Speaker 6 (01:46:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:46:13):
And do you think they should be allowed to be
on the charts? Because this is what's starting this conversation
and why the Australian music charts have changed the rules,
because we had this AI-generated song that was number two
on the Australian charts and getting played on Australian radio,
and they have now said, well, that can't be... It
has to be human before it can, you know..

Speaker 1 (01:46:36):
Chart.

Speaker 3 (01:46:36):
Do you agree with that, Thomas?

Speaker 20 (01:46:37):
At the end of the day, it's a fine demand.
If people want to listen to music Australia by eye,
they will. And if there's such uproar against it, they won't.

Speaker 13 (01:46:47):
It's really what the people..

Speaker 3 (01:46:49):
I mean, I agree with you. I absolutely agree with you.
But it should be marked, right? Oh, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:46:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:46:58):
And there's this thing out of Australia, actually..

Speaker 20 (01:47:01):
If you create an AI-generated video on TikTok, it says
AI-generated content at the top or bottom. So a lot
of the social media outlets are on top of this,
and they are giving notifications to people.

Speaker 8 (01:47:14):
So they're aware.

Speaker 1 (01:47:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:47:16):
And I guess the thing is that the people that are,
as I keep saying, the people that are in most
danger are the people that are making the sloppiest stuff, right?

Speaker 5 (01:47:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:47:22):
So there was no one that was listening to that
particular song by that DJ that's farted out of AI
that were music fans.

Speaker 12 (01:47:31):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:47:32):
You know, like of any kind of level. They're just
people that are listening to slop anyway. Yeah. So if
you make slop, if you write slop, if you do
slop art, then you're in danger from slop AI, right?

Speaker 9 (01:47:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:47:45):
But I don't imagine the strokes are in as big
a danger.

Speaker 18 (01:47:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:48):
But is it creating? Because Thomas used, and good on you, Thomas,
for giving us a call, but he used that word
a lot, that I create AI songs. I mean, is
it really creating? Because as Thomas said, he's not a musician,
but every DJ out there who's become successful started off
with not knowing exactly what they're doing. And they built
those skills over time of developing the samples and finding
those particular things. drum lines and the riffs, and then

(01:48:13):
actually creating something that was unique and different, if you
just pump it into AI, can you really call yourself
a creator? I don't know. No, you can't.

Speaker 5 (01:48:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:48:21):
That's the point. But people are allowed to listen to
you if you want. But talking about Marcel Duchamp before.
You know the guy That just huffed A upside down
urinal And called it a fountain Into In Paris In
1931 I believe it was Yes See I think that
was brilliant Because Because he was just Questioning what art

(01:48:44):
was And so people go Oh well he was just
He was just selling Upside down urinals But I think
there was something in there, and I think there's something
in Andy Warhol, because there's a perspective that AI can
never have. If AI just hips an upside-down urinal into
an art gallery, that doesn't mean anything. But if Andy
Warhol photocopies the Mona Lisa 4,000 times and sticks it

(01:49:06):
to a wall, that has a perspective.

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
Well, it's an emotional response, right? If your emotional response
is anger because you don't think it's art, it's still
eliciting a response.

Speaker 3 (01:49:14):
This text says, Matt, you're criticising the IT guy for
feeling defensive about his business, but it's so clear you
guys are super attached to the music industry and are
reacting from the same perspective. Be better boys from Bob.
Thank you. Yeah, no, the IT guy that I was
going back, he was very abusive in his text and
he was calling me a moron and an idiot, so
I went back way harder at him. But yeah, and

(01:49:36):
I do. I am massively attached to the music industry
and I play guitar and I care about these things.
So I admit I'm defensive.

Speaker 5 (01:49:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:49:46):
I'm not part of the music industry. I just don't
like AI slop. But keep those teats coming through on 9292.
It is 14 to 4. It is 12 to 4
and we're talking about AI music. Australia's clamping down. No

(01:50:06):
more AI music will be allowed in the chart. Should
we follow? How do you feel about AI music? 0800
80 1080.

Speaker 3 (01:50:11):
I love the people that claim to be creative when
they're using AI. They claim they've written something amazing on AI.
You haven't done anything. No, you haven't done anything. Matt,
welcome to the show.

Speaker 7 (01:50:22):
G'day, guys.

Speaker 6 (01:50:23):
How are you?

Speaker 2 (01:50:24):
Very well. Your thoughts?

Speaker 7 (01:50:26):
Good.

Speaker 8 (01:50:26):
Look, you guys start to sound like those old ladies
who used to protest at all those Presley concerts. This
is just evolution. It's not excluding people from making their
own music. It's just an addition.

Speaker 13 (01:50:40):
It's just a different way.

Speaker 8 (01:50:41):
It's no different to Simon Cowell, who produces music, who
basically pumps prompts into people who can't sing and he
auto-tunes them.

Speaker 13 (01:50:51):
What's the difference?

Speaker 3 (01:50:53):
Well, I'd say that Simon Cowell generally finds people that
can sing.

Speaker 1 (01:50:56):
Very well.

Speaker 3 (01:50:56):
But yeah, I get your point. But I get your point.
I mean, the thing about rock and roll, though, and
Elvis is people were shocked by the sexuality of his pelvis.
He was very human. You couldn't get anyone more human
than Elvis.

Speaker 2 (01:51:10):
Hell of a thrust.

Speaker 3 (01:51:11):
That thrust was making people faint.

Speaker 13 (01:51:15):
I'm just saying that. It's the evolution.

Speaker 8 (01:51:17):
People used to protest the monkeys because they didn't play
their own instruments, right?

Speaker 3 (01:51:21):
But how cool were the monkeys that they learned to
play their own instrument and went on tour supporting Jimi Hendrix, Matt?
How cool was that?

Speaker 8 (01:51:32):
All I'm saying is evolution doesn't exclude what was previously done.
You get to choose.

Speaker 3 (01:51:37):
Yeah, but the question is, do you think that people
should be paid for creating... AI music considering it's just
stripping all the history of music. It's been taught from
the history of human creation and blood, sweat and tears
and people learning how to make music.

Speaker 8 (01:51:56):
Well as long as the radio stations and Spotify don't
profit then no. But are they profiting off it?

Speaker 3 (01:52:01):
Well I would agree with you 100%. I think no
one should profit off it. But I think people can
make it and absolutely and if you want to sit
at home Matt and you want to throw it together
and you want to listen to it yourself I think
go for your life absolutely and if And we had
that caller before that puts together their songs that were
perfect for them. That's great. Go for your life. Use
the technology. It's just pretending that it has, just copywriting

(01:52:23):
it is the thing I have a problem with.

Speaker 8 (01:52:25):
Yeah, but there is only so much music that is available, right?
So you're saying that it's not bringing anything new. Well,
artists are only just doing variants, right, of certain things.
It's already existed for a long time. So we're doing
nothing different. We're just using our own expression. The only
thing they're bringing is their own interpretation, right? That's all

(01:52:46):
they're bringing to music.

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):
Do you think this is going to potentially ever change?

Speaker 3 (01:52:49):
Well, they're bringing their perspective as a human.

Speaker 5 (01:52:52):
Correct, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:52:54):
I was just going to jump in there, sorry, quickly.
Do you not think this would have a chilling effect,
that if we allow AI music to go on the
charts and people just pump stuff in that's not theirs
into these AI generators and profit off it, that's going
to have a chilling effect on real creativity out there
in music and beyond?

Speaker 3 (01:53:09):
So why should you learn to sing and why should
you learn to play guitar or play piano? or any
of these great things that musicians do if it's just
going to be a wash of bollocks? And then where
does AI go from there? Because it's got nothing to
train itself on going forward.

Speaker 8 (01:53:27):
Yeah, but you would tend to think that things that
are so easy to do don't become desirable, right?

Speaker 3 (01:53:34):
That's true. That's a very good point.

Speaker 8 (01:53:36):
People will spend billions of dollars buying the Mona Lisa
because it's a one-off room. And you start printing copies
of things, it's worth 10 cents.

Speaker 3 (01:53:48):
But that's because it was touched by Leonardo da Vinci.
So when you see it, you go, oh my God,
that artist, that human being touched it and made that
for a reason. That's why the Mona Lisa, even if
you made an exact copy of it that was to
the micromillimeter exactly the same, it wouldn't be meaningful, would it?
Because the humans..

Speaker 8 (01:54:09):
But he bought something that wasn't available. Do you think
if he had other tools available to him, he would
have used tools?

Speaker 13 (01:54:18):
I think he wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:54:19):
Probably wouldn't. But it would be slop and we wouldn't
be putting it in the loo.

Speaker 7 (01:54:25):
But that's what it would be valued at.

Speaker 3 (01:54:27):
No, no, I think you make a really good point, Matt,
but we've just got to go to a break. And
that is the thing, right? If you just blast that
slop out there and it's easy to make, then it
will be worth nothing. That's the way that it will happen.

Speaker 9 (01:54:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:54:39):
And then I believe that people will crave seeing someone
playing the piano for real and crave art made by humans.
And I think in a way what will happen with
all this AI slop being out there, it will create
a lust for real artisan human content across the board.
And it might actually bring around a renaissance in humanity to,

(01:55:00):
you know, bring up Leonardo da Vinci, renaissance, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (01:55:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:55:03):
That's what I hope anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:55:04):
Here's hoping, yeah. Right, back in a mo, it is
six minutes to four.

Speaker 1 (01:55:07):
The big stories, the big issues, the big trends, and

Speaker 2 (01:55:17):
Four to four.

Speaker 3 (01:55:18):
Okay, that's the end of the show. Thanks so much
for listening and thanks for all your calls and texts. Tyler,
I am playing this song because AI could never come
up with Jimi Hendrix.

Speaker 2 (01:55:28):
Listen to that fire.

Speaker 3 (01:55:29):
And it could also never come up with Dolly Parton,
RIP to both of them.

Speaker 2 (01:55:32):
I'm getting an emotional response to this.

Speaker 3 (01:55:34):
All right, you seem busy.

Speaker 2 (01:55:35):
We'll let you go.

Speaker 3 (01:55:35):
I'm Matt Heath, that's Tyler Adams, and we'll be back
live on your radio tomorrow afternoon. Until then, give them
a taste of Kiwi.

Speaker 1 (01:55:52):
Matt Heath and Tyler Adams. For more from Newstalk ZB,
listen live, on air, or online. And keep our shows
with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeart Radio.

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