June 30, 2026 • 55 mins
The Black Caps' emphatic test and series win features this week on the podcast, joined by former England pace bowler Steven Finn, BBC commentator Simon Mann and Peter Holland to assess the series.
They also discuss Ben Stokes' retirement, and wonder if McCullum is safe in his coaching role.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sad B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on Iheartradiot.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Take it on the Patrick. It is out, the Test
is over. Goodn't dismay from us.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
A beauty, it is out and here he goes.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
This delivery has in many years of.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
The Bold.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
On the Front Foot where Brian Waddell and Jeremy Cody,
powered by News Talks head b at iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
On the Front Foot. In what a week we can
celebrate the emphatic Treadbridge's Test and the remarkable series when
from One Mill Down at Lords, the bizarre events in
the England Temp, the departure of Stokes is McCollum's job safe.
We'll be talking to former England past ball of Stephen
Finn about the Test and the series. Also commentator Simon
(01:06):
Mann from the BBC and a few thoughts from Peter Holland,
along with Jeremy Coney as ever basking in the euphoria
of Test cricket success and Jerry, I know it was
a while ago, but you've experienced the same sort of
thing as a New Zealand player and I guess it's
a special moment when you win a series, particularly against England,
(01:27):
because England and Australia were the real challenges we always faced,
weren't they?
Speaker 4 (01:32):
They were, and I think we always looked wads when
I was playing back to England to look at how
we played, how we should play test cricket. If you
look at the players that went that way, where did
they go? They didn't go to Australia to day. They
headed to England and that's where I think we committed
(01:56):
and felt that we would learn the game well. So
they kind of took a feeling of being a parent,
if you like. And it's nice too. It's nice to
sort of beat the old people sometime, if I can
put it that way, there's a certain pleasure. I remember
(02:18):
as asking me just after the game, well what do
you think about this, Jeremy and the team beat? I said,
Can I just say? First of all, as a player,
you want to make your new you know your country's team,
and then you want to win a Test match with
your country and you're in the team, and then you
(02:38):
want to win a series. And there's only one thing
after there is you want to beat England. Yeah, and
we love beating you. And that was the end of
the interview.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, we go, and I could imagine you enjoying it
because we've had a few tough times in the BBC
box over the period of time, and we only have
to reach twenty nineteen and we're not going to go
any further than that before we review the test. I
just wonder what happened between you and me and our
guests last week. Daniel Norcross, he sort of during the
(03:17):
commentary he took well the person out of you basically.
I don't know. I don't know if you heard.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Him, No, I didn't.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
He was very good, was he What was he trying
to do?
Speaker 5 (03:32):
What was he telling?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
He was just trying. He was just imitating you speaking
all right, yeah, mimicking you and and the pauses and
and and the way you use words, and it was
very clever. I must admit I had a bit of
a laugh and I thought, well, I'll just bring it
up just to check and see whether we're upset a
(03:55):
himore or whether he was just having fun. He seems
like a fun man.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
I think probably what happened once there was a one
of the lunch times, you know how Jonathan Agne on
a Saturday or something. I interviews somebody for about an hour. Yeah,
and this particular guest was someone who was exactly that,
a mimic and he's also doing cats and he's also
doing all sorts of other shows, clever man, and he
(04:21):
had to he had to talk about they were doing
something on splitting Image apparently at this chap and he
was had to mimic Just Cinder, a dern of all people,
and he chose me as the voice to be not Regicinda,
(04:41):
but I think a sheep, and so there he was.
So he asked me to go in at the same time,
and we were there, the three of us, and the guy.
Did you know he had a crack at being me.
I listened to it and I thought, oh, maybe my
brother so but nevertheless, I know I've heard that Daniel
(05:04):
is rather good and slightly better at it.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yes, well, there's there's a lot. Of course. There was
a guy called Peter Brackley. I think he was also
very good at doing the mooking. But you know, it
just adds to the fun of what you're at. And
I'm glad you took it nictually, Jerry, and I'm sure
you would have made a very good Just Cinder.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Or a sheet.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah right, we'll review the Test match in a moment
and as I say, later on we'll be talking to
Simon Mann and also Stephen Finn. But just before we do, Jerry,
let's hear from Rob Walter, who in a very quiet,
matter of fact way reacts to the team performance and
the success in the key moments through the Test series.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (05:52):
I think every win or loss will go down to,
you know, winning or losing key moments in the game.
And obviously in Test cricket they look a little bit
different to the shorter format of the game and sometimes
and it doesn't equate to run. Look, you know, Glenn
Phillip's dealing with Josh ra Arch and Atova spell, you
(06:13):
know where he just refused to take the ball on,
spend most of his time on his back and you know,
just just making the decision and understanding that that was
what was required for him in that moment in order
for the team to find its way in the game
and find its way into a position of strength. I
(06:33):
think there were a lot of those that, you know,
that went on throughout the Test series and it's obvious
because we wouldn't have won the series if we didn't
win those little moments. But but the little moments are
not always runs and wickets. The little moments are often
mindset and an illustration of the team's culture and the
teams together us around what they're trying to achieve. So
(06:56):
for me, you know, Glenn's that moment in time was
one obviously Darryl and Rutchan's partnership, but then Daryl batting
the way that he batted, understanding what was required from him,
shifting the gears, you know, towards the end with the tail.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
We had even a guy like Carl.
Speaker 7 (07:16):
Jamerson, you know, get hit on the head three times
and still keep going, you know, to score you know
the runs that he scored, you know, so you have
little things like that. You know, Ben Sears gets hit
on his bowling hand twice, he goes back into bat
with Darryl Darrell gets his hundred, we get to score
three to seventy odd but he still then goes back
(07:36):
and balls and gets the wicked have Ben Duckett, you know,
willow Row guests that I bowled with a split finger.
Speaker 6 (07:41):
I didn't know how he was going to hold the
cricket ball.
Speaker 7 (07:44):
But he runs any balls three overs you know, it
didn't necessarily are quite equate to any wickets, but what
it did do is it showed the rest of the
team the hunger you know, to do something, you know,
to go beyond when when the team needs you to
do that. So, I mean, I could rattle off moments.
Tom Blundell standing up to stump is the moment, you
(08:05):
know again, And so yeah, little things like that that
happened in the three Test match series is there's probably
twenty of them, but they're all great to reflect on
and to share as a team.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
And just finally, what sort of emphasis as a team
and as a coach did you put on what appeared
to this part of the world anyway some disarray within
the English set up after the Lord's Test when they
had their issues there and then it seemed to carry
on right the way through. Was that part of your
(08:41):
mindset as a coach or do you just get on
with your own job?
Speaker 7 (08:45):
I know, I mean again, we had such a simple plan.
Speaker 6 (08:51):
And that was never going to change.
Speaker 7 (08:53):
In fact, after the first Test and after losing in
the first Test, it probably reaffirmed that you know, if
we did it well, it would put us in a
good position and then obviously their own issues in their
camps started to develop, but nothing changed in terms of
the way we were trying to play. Ultimately, we just
acknowledged that they were going to have to deal with,
(09:16):
you know, with certain issues where it was going to
make them weak or stronger.
Speaker 6 (09:19):
You know, that remains to be seen.
Speaker 7 (09:21):
Often guys come into teams them as adversity and stand
up and do well.
Speaker 6 (09:25):
You know, so I don't think you can.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
I've played against many different teams who have thrived under
you know, turmoil around them, So I didn't necessarily think
that this would have any bearing on on on them
and the way they play the game. And if it did,
the only way we could ever elicit sort of any
advantage out of that was to be even better with
(09:47):
our skill execution and not let them into the game.
And I think that was the important thing. It's just
focusing purely on on on that and and being better
every single time as a team. And you know, then
if they're if there are cracks in the opposition, then
that'll expose them even more.
Speaker 6 (10:02):
You know.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
The last thing you want to do is let them
into the game. And you know, we weren't. We weren't
very well, very crit clinical at certain times, but we've
got better and better throughout this series, which is great
to see.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Fairy organized man quite clearly rob Botron and he seems
to be the kind of architecture want. He doesn't want
to be in the front line of anything. He analyzes
things very clearly, and I think he makes fair points
in that little bit that we played.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Very much so Brian in fact, if you compare, I mean,
he's quiet, he likes being in the background. He's out
there first every day. I was at the ground quite
early and he was already out there looking at the
practice pictures and getting the bat ready and getting all
everything that he needed for his training and giving the throwdowns,
(10:59):
talking to the batsman. You know, he just goes about
his business in a gentle kind of way, but at
the same time make sure every box has tipped. Very
different from McCullum, isn't it. And I just highlight that
because those are That's the way the two teams behaved
(11:21):
as well. You know, New Zealand seemed much in terms
of the two sides, much more calmly determined, confronting a
lot of changes that they had to in this last
Test match. All the families there. I stayed at the
same hotel all their families there. You know, probably about
fifteen to twenty young children between sort of one and
(11:45):
four or five. A lot of noise, a lot of noise.
Tom Nathan removing a child who's being a boisterous and
has to walk them in the walker away for a
while before he can bring them back. So it's just
a nice touch, I think, and it says a lot
(12:05):
about the way that they could cope with the changes,
and there were a lot of them, weren't there with
the three Phillips and Jamison and Henry missing initially and
then of course Technic going as well with the concussion,
so and a lot to the bowling. But but yeah,
(12:27):
you know, they had to bounce back from a loss
and they won the next match pretty comfortably by two
hundred plus runs. England. I just looked they were just
in turmoil, really, a lot of rumor surrounding them, particularly
the guys in charge, a lot of innuendo, and they
(12:50):
just didn't seem as settled kind of side. And they
and the way they tried to win things was with
either well the day where they came out and just
literally could not win the Test after that hour and
a bit, they just couldn't in the game day four
and yeah, so very two very different sides under pressures,
(13:17):
particularly England with a voracious media.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Just thinking on that, I don't take much notice of
necessary normally, but he made one pertinent comment to my
mind that it was New Zealand showing England how to
do it. Yet the England camp has got a lot
of New Zealanders in terms of leadership, with Southy McCollum
and Jet and Patel in there, and that to me
was a telling point.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Well, I don't know why those three New Zealanders aren't
able to keep the rest of the side calm. There's
certainly a lot more media there, Brian, There's no doubt
about that, and there's a lot of things written and
so that place is pressure on you. But you need
to somehow retain a way of thinking about the game.
(14:04):
And I mean I think perhaps that the toss was
quite employ ston't You could see little cracks on the
first day. It was a dry pitch and the ground
staff were concerned that it was a little dry, and
of course then the two hot days occurred beyond that time.
(14:25):
It's not the only thing though, of course you've got
to still take advantage of it, don't you. And Conway,
the more aggressive and lath them, the more compact constructed,
you know. The first key element in the game, and
that was three hundred and seventeen runs in a partnership,
(14:46):
and it was it was hot work for the English side.
It was almost about perfect, wasn't it that first day?
And yet you know we lost a couple late in
the day. Phase two kind of belonged to England. I
felt four thirty eight New Zealand ten for one hundred
(15:06):
and twenty odd and then being two hundred and twenty
three for three. At the end of that day, Bethel
and Route had established themselves, you know, it evened up
and of course New Zealand. That was the day New
Zealand lost. Tichner and folks came in and made a
bit of an impression, didn't he. Actually, in terms of
wickets batted okay. But Phase three was New Zealand's again,
(15:30):
like Lazarus, they would turn from the dead. Really, I
was wondering how on earth if the pitch stayed the same,
would New Zealand get back into it. But Rute and
Betel rut and Bethel went early and they ended up
eighty four precious runs behind, and Folks left. His mark
I think was what was it three wickets something like that,
(15:52):
I think, and making the ball suddenly go down and up.
And this was the day, I think where it became
very clear that batting was not going to be easy
for the rest of the match. Ravendra in the second innings,
I mean, we lost Conway later and Nichols quickly didn't
we yep, and then Revendra set about on an innings
(16:15):
to me which kind of showed that he has the judgment,
that he has the shots that we know he can
and if he can put the two together. He kind
of worked to eradicate the first innings blunder that he
had made. And for about his first thirty balls he
(16:36):
must have been twenty two twenty three not out. He
made a significant difference to the start of that New
Zealand secondaries after losing those three early wickets, and he
took the sting out of the new ball that was
being bold. So that was it was a very important
(16:56):
little cameo to get his innings started. At the time,
Mitchell was really supportive, but no more than that it
was Revendra who was driving the way the game was changing.
And even though the conditions themselves were becoming variable, a
bit up and a bit down, there were more cracks
(17:20):
you could see day in Day three, player traffic was
becoming obvious. Running down the pitch, you could get targets,
you know, the whole pitch started to look spent and tired.
And then we got to day four when all the
things happened, was Revender and Mitchell going almost to lunch,
Revender getting out to one that just kept a smidge
(17:41):
and low, and then Mitchell for the rest of the
day accepted the responsibility. It was what you might not
call it a pretty innings, but man grim, determined, gutsy,
showed his will, showed his character and his bravery. Really,
I don't know how many times he was hit on
the hand, on the arms, on the helmet, helmets changed,
(18:05):
you know that this was an innings of the Really,
I mean, he was just terrific. I thought, I don't
know what you thought, but one hundred and seventy balls
for his first fifty, full of concentration and cleverness on
defense because the ball coming back in LBW when it
(18:26):
was keeping low was the obvious way of getting out.
He looked after his inside edge and he made sure
that it didn't hit his pad, getting it right out
in front. That was very clever defense. And so that
was an absolutely critical part of the game. The crowd
(18:47):
was shouting Mitchell boring, and he had give them a
little wave and then he'd go on and just carry
on with his defiance.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, but that's the proof that Test match cricket is
not all about reverse sweeps and T twenty cricket. It's
about putting your body on the line and taking a
hit for the team. And he played like an all Black,
didn't he in a tight situation.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
That that was a very very special Mitchell hundred and strange,
you know. Strangely enough, that first fifty actually meant a
lot more to me than the second part, which was
seventy balls for fifty. So it was the fact that
he went through all that work that gives you an
(19:36):
opportunity to play more freely later on, you know. And
he was rebuffing the Atkinsons and the Stokes and the
Archers and the tongues, you know, and you know they
were hurling themselves at him, and yet he just worked
at it, you know. So that was a key partnership.
And then Blundell and Santana wentz and then Smith and folks,
(19:59):
Folks getting out the very next ball. After of course
the crowd heard about Stokes retiring, but then we got
sixty five sixty five more critical runs after that moment,
and that again showed to me a lot about I mean,
Sears played. I saw him in the lifter, came down
(20:20):
the lift with him today. Well played, man, he said,
thank you so much. It was a great test to
be part of. And who got nineteen or fourteen hit
on the fingers had to retire hurt Also out came
o'rourt got out. Who came back and it's only been
off the field for about two minutes. Sears came back.
(20:40):
They could not pin us down.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, And I mean it was a lot of individual performances,
but no one individually stamped their total authority on the performance.
It was a real team effort, wasn't it. And I
think that that was what showed through more than anything
else when you put all those individual pieces together. And
that's why I spoke to Rob Walter about winning the
(21:04):
key moments. That was the difference between the two, wasn't it?
Speaker 4 (21:09):
And he was absolutely right, absolutely right, So three seventy
three and then there was mayhem, wasn't there. Then there
was a farcical period of and you could hear you
could hear the New Zealanders. I don't know whether you
could if you turned up the stump mic you could
hear them say whoa, they'd be laughing when Brooke got
(21:31):
out nine balls for you know, twenty one off nine
balls and quite yeah, they will laugh at what's going on?
What are they doing? It was great and it was great.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
They've taken real stick over there in the UK, haven't they.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Oh they have totally totally. It was just it was
It would have been okay if they were chasing one
hundred and seventy, not three hundred and seventy. They're used
to doing that, so that's very much the Melbourne target.
One hundred and seventy. That sort of thing, and you
might get a with a very quick start where you
(22:10):
lose wickets and you're prepared to do so. They lost
two thirds of their top order and amidst all the shots,
Bessel got out playing no shots, which is a bit ironic,
and I you know they just I couldn't understand it
what I was seeing either, so especially after they'd seen Ravendra,
(22:32):
especially after they'd seen Mitchell. But they didn't back themselves
to be able to bat the same way.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And yet they believe in themselves an ability to take
sides apart under the bas ball scenario. We'll be hearing
from Stephen Finn very shortly and also from side Man.
Just a final word from eu Jery. I know we
could talk a lot more about this and we will
reflect on it over a period of time. Do you
see personally Brendan McCallum surviving as coach?
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Well, it's got a chance because I know that there
are calls. But you know, while the inner sanctum of
McCullum and Key, I think the Key is less at
risk than McCullum just because of the job that he's got.
(23:23):
I think the ECB who will be making the decision
really Gould and co McCullum. For the first thing, he
convinced them that Gould that he had changed right we're
going back to just between us arriving and the end
of the Ashes right that period. Secondly, they won the
(23:46):
first Test Lord's which they might regard as signs of progress.
Then twenty four hours later that's gone a bit, but
not the fault of the management, not the fault of McCullum.
I think they would look at it, and they might
look at the fact that the crew the toss was
fairly important and they lost it. However, they've only had
two wins out of ten the last ten and since
(24:11):
twenty twenty three it's a losing record. So mcculum is
lucky to be there. I think That's how I feel.
But who would they what would they do? I mean,
they will probably feel that they would be more in
control if Brooker's captain than they would if it was Stoked.
(24:36):
Who would argue with them and be much more strong
about it, I think, And so they might feel that
they have got more power at that stage to run
the run the cutter if you like. So it's a
mixed and confusing picture, Wads. I don't really mind, to
be honest, I'm just thrilled New Zealand have come from
(24:58):
one down and they've won the last two Test matches convincingly.
They've deserved the victory. They've quietly gone about the way
to play Test cricket better than the opposition.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Brian Waddell, Jeremy Coney on the front foot.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
It's a pleasure to be joined by former England pasteballer
now BBC tist met special commentator Stephen Finn, who I've
been fortunate enough to work with him the past, and
of course he's a very close friend of New Zealand,
having played a bit of time here in New Zealand.
But I guess you don't celebrate sucist to the same
extent that we do when New Zealand beat England.
Speaker 8 (25:35):
Funny, Not quite, i'd say, Brian, No, not quite. It's
it's been a weird few days here. I think there's
been loads of stuff going on on our side of
the fence, clearly with the Ben Stokes retirement and all
of the conjecture around that. But nothing should be taken
away from the way New Zealand have played here. It's
(25:56):
been it's been outstanding, and I think even more so
given the fact that they were injury ravaged in this game,
missing for of their what you would consider main players
coming into this Test match, to then need a concussion
substitute as well, but still come out with a huge victory.
It's not just a small victory. This is a huge
victory here at trent Bridge. They fully deserve this series winen,
(26:19):
So I'm not celebrating it as much as you, but
I respect it as much as you.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's great. Does it reflect that there are issues in
the England game then at the moment.
Speaker 8 (26:31):
I think there's certainly a lot to look at. I
think we'll have to let the dust settle on this
series and then take a view looking forward about what
is done next. But certainly when you're beaten this badly
at home for the first time in a long time.
I think it's the first series that England have lost
at home in fourteen years, so that's a significant moment
in time. So there's going to have to be a
(26:52):
lot of reflection from the powers that v at the
ECB about how this team and how the game in
this country moves forward.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah, it's interesting because after the Lord's Test, where England
won quite comprehensibly, they were not quite the same side.
Do you think they were slightly in disarray because of
the issues that came out of that Test match.
Speaker 8 (27:14):
Well, I think clearly those things didn't help. And when
you go into the second Test match of a series
having to give three debuts and five of the players
in the team sharing two caps between them, I think
that you're certainly up against it, especially when you come
up against such a pragmatic team like New Zealand who
just seemed to have a mentality that gets every ounce
(27:35):
of talent out of each of their players on a
consistent basis. So yeah, I'm sure those events didn't help,
and certainly the disruption to the team didn't help, But
again I don't think that should take anything away from
what New Zealand have achieved him.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It was a series that I suppose small moments played
an important part, and those small moments were on both sides.
But this third Test match, I guess the opening partnership
between Latham and Conway and then the partnership between Mitchell
and Ravendra were key moment.
Speaker 8 (28:09):
Yeah, I'd say that Mitchell and Revendra partnership was the
one where I think at that stage New Zealand eight
for two was it eighteen for two something like that
in the second innings with a lead but still a
low number for two in the second innings, I think
that that was the moment that England could have come
piling through the door but both of those guys said no,
(28:31):
not today. And Daryl Mitchell's innings in particular, I thought
Revener was really classy and he put the pressure back
on the bowlers. But the way that Mitchell, he must
have worn blows on almost every inch of his body.
I think all of his fingers on his right hand
got hit, his head, his ribs, his inner thigh, and
he just kept going and was resolute in his defense
and then opened up as the innings went on when
(28:53):
he was batting with the tail to score a brilliant
Test Match hundred. So I think that was the partnership
that really won New Zealand the game. But certainly that
opening partnership, having won the toss and batted first, put
the key was in a fantastic position.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Was there relation in that for England, particularly in their
second and English when they came out with the attacking
approach that has been well part of their game in
recent times, but didn't really have the ability to adjust
to the style that was needed.
Speaker 8 (29:25):
Yeah, I think certainly that a lot can be learned
by England for the way that New Zealand played in
this series. And I think the way that New Zealand
played the moments is the most important thing. The way
that New Zealand managed to manage to play the significant
moments within games and make the right decisions in those
(29:47):
moments is what sets them apart from other teams. And
just like to fin off on Ben Stokes, Yeah, look
what a career. He's had a remarkable career. He's been
part of some of the most significant moments in English sport,
not just not just cricket in English sports. So yeah,
he's It was a surprise decision I think with the
(30:09):
Ashes just twelve months away. But a player who wears
his heart in his sleep like Ben Stokes is going
to be a sore mist for English cricket and it's
sad to see him not playing for England again.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, the timing was pretty strange. Wasn't the middle of
a Test match?
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Yes?
Speaker 8 (30:24):
Yeah, I think it was. But Ben Stokes is an
unconventional character and he doesn't do things like everyone else,
so it was kind of fitting.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Just one final question, it's been a Test series of
past bowlers. Both sides had significant past bowling bettery that
would probably please you as a former England past bowler.
Speaker 8 (30:43):
Yes, I love watching fast bowling. I think Will O'Rourke
is someone that I've really enjoyed watching, especially over the
last few weeks, but since he started his career with
New Zealand. I like my tall quicks Brian, so yeah
to see him thundering in and causing problems. I hope
his injury here that he walked off with today isn't
too bad because he's a star of the future for sure.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
All right, Fanny, thanks very much for your time.
Speaker 8 (31:06):
Patrick, No, I was sorry about that.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Might be able to catch up some other time, I
hope sounds good.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Matt, all right, thanks mate on the front foot with
Waddle and Cody.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Well, my thanks to Stephen Finn for joining us. Haven't
spoken to Finny for quite some time since he was
out here in New Zealand such a long time ago.
Another man who I've worked with over a long period
of time one of the leading commentators for BBC Test
Match specialists, Simon Mann, who's followed the trials and tribulations
(31:41):
of the game in England. And Simon, I'm sure it
must be hard for you, as a broadcaster and a
cricket fan as well to see the way things are
going at the moment. So particularly around the captaincy, the coach,
the leadership of the side, and the game is taking
second place, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (32:00):
It's nice to be with you, Brian.
Speaker 9 (32:02):
Firstly, I think one thing I would say is we've
kind of seen all this before many times over the years,
so it feels a little bit like a soap opera
sometimes English cricket nothing really surprises you. But the really
disappointing thing I think was last winter in the Ashes
where England played. They didn't prepare properly and their tactics
(32:25):
were poor, and I think that was the that felt
like the nadir, and they tried to sort it out
from here and have continuity. It's not worked. Ben Stokes
is obviously standing down. Brenda McCullum says he wants to continue.
It feels like the end of an era. It feels
like a time for change again. We'll see what happens
(32:50):
in pro sport. Watching it, observing it is fascinating. It's
better not to get too emotionally involved, and it's probably
better not to get too up or too down.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, but I mean it must be disappointing. Does it
seem to you as just another retirement story? Or are
their biggest issues involved in this peak Because England cricket
over the period of time, particularly after the Ashes had
to fight up to that defeat, there seems to be
conspiracy theories abounding far and wide. Is it a bigger
(33:21):
issue than just failure of the team at the top level.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
I think that's a really good question.
Speaker 9 (33:29):
I think that's I think sometimes you have to take
players coaches at face value.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
Not all the time.
Speaker 9 (33:36):
I think sometimes they do dissemble, but I think sometimes
you do have to take them at face value. And
what I think has been clear over the last three
weeks four weeks of this series is that Ben Stokes
has felt kind of frazzled and it has been time
to quit. So you had the Ashes where England had
all these high hopes. They thought they've got it all together,
(33:57):
they were going to challenge Australia and it fell so
flat and they were hammered in Australia and the cricket
was abysmal, and there was so much criticism and there
was so much anger among England supporters. So I think
what happened then sort of right, we're going to continue.
It's going to be the same structure they went to
the start of the season. Benston turned up at Lauds
and he just it just didn't feel right for him.
And then of course the events subsequently I think probably
(34:20):
pushed him over made him think, yeah, that really sort
of made his mind up. So I think there is
an element in which the politics, if you like, of
the situation, his frustration that like, for example, I don't
think he thought he broke a curfew on that night
out in Chelsea, but you also think, well, would after
(34:41):
everything happened in the Ashes, would the captain not think
it's best not to go out after a Test match win? So,
and whether that was kind of symptomatic of where his
head was. You know, I just need to I just
need to go out. I just need to unwind whatever
and whatever the consequences, you know, we'll find that tomorrow.
But I think what they were unlucky with is the
(35:02):
fact that the players can easily have gone out, but
no one would have known about it when it kicked off.
Speaker 5 (35:07):
In that you know, when the.
Speaker 9 (35:09):
When the the rugby player swung a punch, it then
became an incident, so we might not have ever found
out about it without that incidance. So it was kind
of an unlucky set of circumstances in a way, although
you know you put yourself in danger by going out
and then I think what happened then is that there
was a real kickback into bend stakes for that and
he thought, well, really that's just made my mind up.
(35:31):
But I'm here saying yesterday that yeah, it was, it
was part of it. But he was felt he was
kind of done. And I think the ash's defeats, especially
the nature of one England suffering in the winter, that
they're kind of hard on a on a captain and
he's been doing the job for four years, he's been
playing international cricket for well over a decade and he's
(35:52):
had always injuries over time and bounced back out all
sorts of other controversies as well and bounced back. But
in the end it might just it might just wear
you down.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
I since from Afar that he's a beloved character in
the majority of cases with people that he is regarded
as one of the best all round us that England
has been able to put out on the park. But
I don't see that the sense that there's the same
feeling about Brendan McCullum and even Rob Key, and there
(36:22):
are people on social media, I know the Keyboard Warriors
and they become anonymous. But those are the things that
basically cause issues in the administration of the game. Is
McCollum safe.
Speaker 9 (36:37):
That's again, Brian, you're asking all the personal questions and
that's a that's a very good question. I mean I
did an interview with them afterwards where I said to
you know, do you intend to carry on? He said, yeah,
I'm totally committed. I said do you expect to carry on?
And he gave me basically a one word answer, yeah,
that's part of the process or something like that.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
It's to be decided.
Speaker 9 (36:59):
Really, I think there is a there is no You
could kind of get a sense that among England cricket
sports because it's difficult without you going to speak to
all of them. I get a sense that they feel
the wrong person that's gone.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Not everyone.
Speaker 9 (37:11):
I think some people frustrated, say what Ben Staates did
after the Test match. But I think there's the feeling
that Brenda McCullum's coaching methods have run their course. Now
they work for a while because a low EBB and
they were able to kind of reinvent the team get
the fun back into the game, get the crowds going,
but then the results of a dip because teams have
adapted playing against them, they've kind of.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
Let themselves disrupt, if you like.
Speaker 9 (37:35):
And so it's time for something a bit more if
for want of a better word, a bit more serious,
a bit more strategic. So we'll see. I mean, one
aspect for Benda McCullum now is and this is slightly ridiculous,
is that because he's the white bull coach as well,
is that tomorrow England have got a white ball series
starting against India, which is high profile here. You know
(37:57):
what an India series is like, it pays all the bills,
you know, the crowds are behaving, so and there's a
World Cup next year as well as the One Day
International Series afterwards, and England are struggling in the in
the ranking in one day international cricket, so the most
important matches coming up, so it's kind of like not
just red ball, but it's also white ball as well
in England haven't been that good in one day cricket recently,
(38:18):
so there's there's a bit going into this. But then
there's a break of about a month while we played
one hundred and then there's another Test series, so there's
a bit of time after this series to sort it out,
to sort out what they're going to do.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
The sad effect of all of this is that there
was a three Test series and it produced some spectacular cricket.
At times, there were moments where individual came to the
fore and did the business. And a lot of this
is basically taking the away from the fans that there
(38:55):
is a game of cricket there and they're still turning
up to watch and there's still a lot of interest
in the game in England.
Speaker 9 (39:03):
Yeah, that the crowds have been fantastic for this Test series.
I also feel a bit sorry for New Zealand because
you know, they've come here, they won the last two
Test matches, played really good, sort of sensible, professional, hard
nosed cricket and in a way that the bench states
yesterday and the day before, his retirement has kind of
(39:25):
been the central focus and you can understand that to
some extent because it's you know, he has been an
important figure for English cricket. He was the captain and
he's produced some amazing things over the years, so you
kind of do celebrate the end of that, but it
has kind of like shifted the focus away from an
excellent performance from New Zealand and also that in a
(39:45):
way the last Test match as well, because all that
was about, you know, England sort of mixing matching their
team having to make five changes for various reasons, and
so here the story would have been so much focused
on that and very little on you know what New
Zealand have done well. I mean Daryl Mitchell for example,
what a what a fantastic innings he played. You know
(40:06):
everyone's probably seen the images of his body bruised and battered,
and you know the England supporters barracking him with boring,
boring Mitchell. But you know, if you're dal Mix and
I think he loved it. I mean, any self respecting
cricketer would love it when the crowd get on their
back like that.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
Because it shows he's making a good job of it.
Speaker 9 (40:24):
And he did and it was brilliant and just played
so well to come back in the series and win
the first that's a bit of lottery. Second Test, you know,
they exploited English problems and this one they just played
that excellent cricket but not always but you know, they
played enough of it to get over the line.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, Daryl Mitchell obviously enjoyed the fact that his father
was an all Black rugby player, probably bred that in
to his mentality. But I mean that was you know,
that was one issue. And I think in that Test
match that has just been completed, his betting should have
(41:02):
been a lesson for England. I can't believe. And I
saw some of the television footage of New Zealanders at
a fall of a wickets saying what are they doing?
And Jamie Smith I think proved that. You know, England
might well have got close had they had wickets in hand,
but they fired them away. Was that part of their mentality?
(41:26):
Was it a two fingers salute to the English cricket board.
What brought about that? Or was it just you know,
this is bearsball, will play it this way and.
Speaker 9 (41:37):
Again I wonder whether this will come out in time.
But what that was about, I mean, in a way
it was that was how Igland were playing in the
first two years. They would come out and they would
they would go at it really hard and I think
they thought the pitch was really poor and I think it, yeah,
I thought like two sevenths of the pitch was actually
quite dangerous by the end or you know, one seventh
(41:59):
of the pitch, but obviously if you didn't, if you
didn't hit those dangerous bits, then it was fine. You
could bat and you kind of bided your time like
Jamie Smith did, like Mitchell did, and if you know
you're going to take the odd blow, the wants.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
Going to fly over your shoulder.
Speaker 9 (42:14):
But if you could survive that on, you go, because
there were enough good bits of the surface to survive on.
I think they thought the pitch was poor and that
the only way that they could chase that down was
to go back to old methods, was just to really
try to put the pressure on New Zealand and take
it on.
Speaker 5 (42:28):
And it kind of worked for a bit. Brian.
Speaker 9 (42:30):
They were fifty for no wicket. I thought when they
got to about forty in the field was back. I thought,
why didn't you just knock it around, Just knock it
around and build the innings come back tomorrow and the
build the pressure on New Zealand. But States got caught
the mid wicket.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
As we know. It's also worth just bearing in mind.
Speaker 9 (42:47):
I know there were one or two extravagant shots played
by they say a media gay came in on the
pair and played reverse sweet first ball, but Bethel played
no shot. Duckett got a really good ball, So those,
you know, those were two of the wickets as well.
Harry Brooke, I think was always going to come out
and play in that way, and I'm probably in a
minority of one with that. I actually thought he was
a bit unlucky with his dismissal because the ball he
(43:10):
hit for six was very similar to the ball that
got him out, and it was there for that. It
was there for the instinctive stroke. Okay didn't execute particularly well.
He was caught on the fine name boundary and it
looked a terrible dismissal in the context of his innings.
But that could easily have sailed away for six as well.
So there was a lot going into that evening.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
I think that was it. They felt the pit was poor.
Speaker 9 (43:35):
They wanted to put the pressure back on New Zealand,
but I think the adrenaline of the situation meant they
did get a bit carried away. But I don't think
any team, I really don't think any team was chasing
three seventi on that surface, although as it turned out,
of course he zoom Brian New Zealand have had half
a bowling attack because there'd so many injuries.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
In normal circumstances, England probably would have been capable of
chasing that down if pitch conditions and other things have
been in their favor. The one final question, though, Simon,
is looking here part of your job to see what
is forthcoming in terms of England cricket. Is Harry Brooke
(44:16):
the right man to take over from being stakes?
Speaker 9 (44:24):
My instinct says no, But I don't know what the
alternatives are. That's the problem. And he has done captaincy before.
He's captain of the white ball team. I don't think
he can captain the white ball team and the Red
Bull team. Well he can captain. He obviously can't do it,
but it is the burden to be you know. For example,
I was just saying, they've just gone for a Test match,
(44:44):
they've got one day's break and they're into a twenty series.
Speaker 5 (44:47):
Well you can't.
Speaker 9 (44:48):
You can't put that on a captain, you know, how
can you plan? For example? So I wonder if they
did make Harry Brooke Red Bull captain, whether they'd have
to have a different white Ball captain relieving of the
whiteboard captaincy someone like Sam Cohen or possibly possibly even
Jacob Bethel. But how they could go back to Joe
Rooter's Test captain, but it's feels as though that ship
(45:09):
has sailed unless they say to Joe, right, Joe, you're
our captain for a year until the end of the
Ashes and that's it. You know, that's your that's your tenure.
So not appoint in England captain such, but appointed England
captain with a clear end point in mind. So the
options aren't obvious, Brian, because this is now a youngish
team and a lot of the older senior players are gone.
(45:32):
I think in the future someone like Jacob Bethel could
turn into an England captain. I'd be and I would
be if you said to me, now, do you think
one Jacob Bethel will one day Beingland Test captain? I'd
say yes, I think he probably will be. But obviously
he's got to start, you establishing himself in the team's
school runs. So not many options, Brian. That's the that's
the problem I think for England. So they kind of
(45:54):
might have to go to Harry Brook. Ben Stokes said yesterday,
you know, he said Harry Brook is the man. He
gave his firm backing afterwards, so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Brian Waddell, Jeremy Coney on the front foot, thanks.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Forms too, Slim and man for joining the program after
what has been a fairly hectic week of Test crickets
at trent Bridge and quite bizarre to a certain extent.
Peter Holland joins us once again, and I mean what
I finished to that Test match. It just highlighted to
me how superior the Black Caps were to England in
(46:30):
that series, bearing in mind the way both sides played
the latter stages of the Test.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
I think you used the word bizarre, and it was
something that was knocking around on my head as well,
because when you sit back and reflect on the three
Tests and what happened at Lord's and then to think
that two victories by New Zealand comprehensive at that should
(46:59):
ensue with essentially quite in some respects quite different teams
between the second and the third Test in regards of
bowling reserves. It was. It was truly quite mesmerizing. What
I also love. Of course we got under the fifth
(47:20):
day and twice. Wasn't that good?
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, almost definitely, even though you didn't get the number
of overs in a day you should get. I guess
we have to make allowances for the heat, but it
was it was impressive stuff from New Zealand. And you
as a well, I think he might have been sort
of vaguely and all round it, but basically a batsman
(47:45):
at the top level. You must have enjoyed some of
those innings. And I've been trying to toss up on
my mind which innings was the best, and there were
some really good ones there, but I've narrowed it down
to one between two. Was the innings of Mitchell in
the second innings and outstanding one hundred or was it
(48:07):
the innings of Phillips and his ability to combat an
evil spell of bowling by Joffra Archer. I mean, they
were both significant features of the series, weren't they.
Speaker 5 (48:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
You make a very an interesting point there, Briant, because
I I thought Mitchell, you know, earlier, earlier in the series,
wasn't really giving us what we were looking for, hadn't
really sort of clicked in, and yet that was just
just fantastic knock on every level, and the way he
went about it and the way he took England out
(48:42):
of the game against a good attack too. It's not
it's not disregard that. But then you roll back to
Phillips and as both of those innings has put New
Zealand or took the game away from England, so they
were significant. It wasn't as if it wasn't as if.
Speaker 10 (49:00):
It was just like a yeah, any hundreds of great hundred,
but these were These were special hundreds, both of them,
and in very try condition and playing in a way
which which in Phillips's case was sort of counterintuitive to
what we normally see of him, and and as Jerry
pointed out last week, trying not to play the ball
(49:21):
and getting overs into Archer which ultimately caused him in
they're boling an eight over spell which and then he
couldn't turn up the next day according to the whoever
controls these things. So Phillips that that was a fantastic noto.
But probably I end up landing on on Mitchell simply
because of the way that he just took on the
(49:43):
English attack and ge wears I mean getting belted in
the elbow, I mean that hurts, and he just shrugged
it off and attacking a couple in the ReBs if
you don't mind in the fingers. I mean, that's that's
that's that's good stuff. And I think a lot of
commentators were watching that and saying this is this is
(50:04):
a pretty special earnings and and so so it was
so I am hard to split, but I think I'm
gonna I'm gonna land on on on the case of
Mitchell because it really it really put put England out
of the game big time.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
To score one hundred against England in England is as
a as a as a great achievement.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
What this is done again when you when you sit
down and looked at the three Test series and what's
ended up happening is is that you've got Nichols coming
in and playing. And I was rather critical of him.
So I've got to eat humble pie there, You've got
to You've got a lot of pike.
Speaker 11 (50:43):
Maybe too much pike for me, but but and then
you had you had he came in and performs extremely well,
you know, gets it, gets gets a, gets a twenty
and twenty five when it was needed, you know, twenty
five off seveny odd balls.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
That sort of stuff. That's good stuff. And then then
the other players, the breadth of players we've ended up
using because you see, well the team that ended up
going me picked for the third Test, absent Phillips, absent
Henry Well. That going to be under pressure, aren't they?
You would have thought, because I argued with the world's
best bowl is not bothering, And yet they turned up.
(51:23):
And I don't know how this concussion stuff works, but
all of a sudden Zach Volks runs in and plays brilliantly,
helped in a great part by a fabulous Test series
from the keeper Blundon.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, I was going to I was going to say
that he was the next point because Nathan Smith won
the Player of the Series award and he bowled superbly,
and you know he's a new boy on the block
when when you start talking Test cricket. But to me,
it was between him and Blundell, and you know, to
keep wickets in those conditions on variable bounce against one
(52:08):
thirty five K takes guts, but it takes skill too,
doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
Oh look, I you know we touched on it before
when he when he did that back in back at
the base and reserved two three years ago. And then
it's been somewhat mimicked by Australia because all of a
sudden it brings the players back into the back onto
the crease and therefore they don't get that extra hob
which they love. Brook and Roote and those guys, all
(52:36):
of a sudden they're back there and then it opens
them up. But as you quite rightly point out, Brian
on a variable bouncing wicket and have won thirty five clicks,
I mean, Smith is no slouch. He gets it through
and then of course he's doing it to folks. The
keeping is keeping in again a more humble pie for
me to eat, because I was thinking that perhaps, you know,
(52:57):
the Canterbury keeper might have had a shot when we
were chatting about it a few weeks ago. But hell no,
Blundell has been a revelation and I really have to
applaud him because he's probably probably arguable the difference in
the whole series because of what he did at the
(53:17):
contribution across all three Test matches. I think he's fantastic
and I just think and it was a joy to watch,
and it was really interesting when you're listening and watching
on the TV how many applaudits he was getting from
people like a saying ATHLETs and broad and so on.
They were very effusive in their praise for Blundell, and
(53:39):
for that matter, they were a fusive in their praise
for New Zealand full stop, and somewhat disparaging about their
own mob.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
So an interesting time, fascinating stuff, Jerry, the kind of
cricket I know you love and like to embroil yourself
the tactics and the way players play the game. And
I'm sure you've enjoyed it, but I'm sure you also
enjoy a bit of a holiday because it's hard commentating
(54:07):
tests series that are packed together like that. The players
quite have hard but you know, mentally it's tough, isn't it,
And you need a bit of a break, So God
have you one.
Speaker 4 (54:15):
Yeah, thanks Wads. I've really enjoyed the tests. Of course,
it's always easier, as you know, if New Zealand come
out on top, and what's bred in the bone will
come out of the wicket. And so I'm delighted for
the group that I was with because they were there
(54:35):
the last and we were having breakfast together, you know.
But I'm ready for a break and looking forward to
to spending some time away and then I'll catch you
back at home, so that'll be good fun. So look
after yourself and enjoy, enjoy, and enjoy the victory.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Yeah, and you enjoy a heat wave. We'll talk again
in a week or.
Speaker 4 (55:00):
Say good words, take care of summer.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sad B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on Iheartradiot.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Take it on the Patrick. It is out, the Test
is over. Goodn't dismay from us.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
A beauty, it is out and here he goes.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
This delivery has in many years of.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
The Bold.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
On the Front Foot where Brian Waddell and Jeremy Cody,
powered by News Talks head b at iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
On the Front Foot. In what a week we can
celebrate the emphatic Treadbridge's Test and the remarkable series when
from One Mill Down at Lords, the bizarre events in
the England Temp, the departure of Stokes is McCollum's job safe.
We'll be talking to former England past ball of Stephen
Finn about the Test and the series. Also commentator Simon
(01:06):
Mann from the BBC and a few thoughts from Peter Holland,
along with Jeremy Coney as ever basking in the euphoria
of Test cricket success and Jerry, I know it was
a while ago, but you've experienced the same sort of
thing as a New Zealand player and I guess it's
a special moment when you win a series, particularly against England,
(01:27):
because England and Australia were the real challenges we always faced,
weren't they?
Speaker 4 (01:32):
They were, and I think we always looked wads when
I was playing back to England to look at how
we played, how we should play test cricket. If you
look at the players that went that way, where did
they go? They didn't go to Australia to day. They
headed to England and that's where I think we committed
(01:56):
and felt that we would learn the game well. So
they kind of took a feeling of being a parent,
if you like. And it's nice too. It's nice to
sort of beat the old people sometime, if I can
put it that way, there's a certain pleasure. I remember
(02:18):
as asking me just after the game, well what do
you think about this, Jeremy and the team beat? I said,
Can I just say? First of all, as a player,
you want to make your new you know your country's team,
and then you want to win a Test match with
your country and you're in the team, and then you
(02:38):
want to win a series. And there's only one thing
after there is you want to beat England. Yeah, and
we love beating you. And that was the end of
the interview.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, we go, and I could imagine you enjoying it
because we've had a few tough times in the BBC
box over the period of time, and we only have
to reach twenty nineteen and we're not going to go
any further than that before we review the test. I
just wonder what happened between you and me and our
guests last week. Daniel Norcross, he sort of during the
(03:17):
commentary he took well the person out of you basically.
I don't know. I don't know if you heard.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Him, No, I didn't.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
He was very good, was he What was he trying
to do?
Speaker 5 (03:32):
What was he telling?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
He was just trying. He was just imitating you speaking
all right, yeah, mimicking you and and the pauses and
and and the way you use words, and it was
very clever. I must admit I had a bit of
a laugh and I thought, well, I'll just bring it
up just to check and see whether we're upset a
(03:55):
himore or whether he was just having fun. He seems
like a fun man.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
I think probably what happened once there was a one
of the lunch times, you know how Jonathan Agne on
a Saturday or something. I interviews somebody for about an hour. Yeah,
and this particular guest was someone who was exactly that,
a mimic and he's also doing cats and he's also
doing all sorts of other shows, clever man, and he
(04:21):
had to he had to talk about they were doing
something on splitting Image apparently at this chap and he
was had to mimic Just Cinder, a dern of all people,
and he chose me as the voice to be not Regicinda,
(04:41):
but I think a sheep, and so there he was.
So he asked me to go in at the same time,
and we were there, the three of us, and the guy.
Did you know he had a crack at being me.
I listened to it and I thought, oh, maybe my
brother so but nevertheless, I know I've heard that Daniel
(05:04):
is rather good and slightly better at it.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yes, well, there's there's a lot. Of course. There was
a guy called Peter Brackley. I think he was also
very good at doing the mooking. But you know, it
just adds to the fun of what you're at. And
I'm glad you took it nictually, Jerry, and I'm sure
you would have made a very good Just Cinder.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Or a sheet.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah right, we'll review the Test match in a moment
and as I say, later on we'll be talking to
Simon Mann and also Stephen Finn. But just before we do, Jerry,
let's hear from Rob Walter, who in a very quiet,
matter of fact way reacts to the team performance and
the success in the key moments through the Test series.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (05:52):
I think every win or loss will go down to,
you know, winning or losing key moments in the game.
And obviously in Test cricket they look a little bit
different to the shorter format of the game and sometimes
and it doesn't equate to run. Look, you know, Glenn
Phillip's dealing with Josh ra Arch and Atova spell, you
(06:13):
know where he just refused to take the ball on,
spend most of his time on his back and you know,
just just making the decision and understanding that that was
what was required for him in that moment in order
for the team to find its way in the game
and find its way into a position of strength. I
(06:33):
think there were a lot of those that, you know,
that went on throughout the Test series and it's obvious
because we wouldn't have won the series if we didn't
win those little moments. But but the little moments are
not always runs and wickets. The little moments are often
mindset and an illustration of the team's culture and the
teams together us around what they're trying to achieve. So
(06:56):
for me, you know, Glenn's that moment in time was
one obviously Darryl and Rutchan's partnership, but then Daryl batting
the way that he batted, understanding what was required from him,
shifting the gears, you know, towards the end with the tail.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
We had even a guy like Carl.
Speaker 7 (07:16):
Jamerson, you know, get hit on the head three times
and still keep going, you know, to score you know
the runs that he scored, you know, so you have
little things like that. You know, Ben Sears gets hit
on his bowling hand twice, he goes back into bat
with Darryl Darrell gets his hundred, we get to score
three to seventy odd but he still then goes back
(07:36):
and balls and gets the wicked have Ben Duckett, you know,
willow Row guests that I bowled with a split finger.
Speaker 6 (07:41):
I didn't know how he was going to hold the
cricket ball.
Speaker 7 (07:44):
But he runs any balls three overs you know, it
didn't necessarily are quite equate to any wickets, but what
it did do is it showed the rest of the
team the hunger you know, to do something, you know,
to go beyond when when the team needs you to
do that. So, I mean, I could rattle off moments.
Tom Blundell standing up to stump is the moment, you
(08:05):
know again, And so yeah, little things like that that
happened in the three Test match series is there's probably
twenty of them, but they're all great to reflect on
and to share as a team.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
And just finally, what sort of emphasis as a team
and as a coach did you put on what appeared
to this part of the world anyway some disarray within
the English set up after the Lord's Test when they
had their issues there and then it seemed to carry
on right the way through. Was that part of your
(08:41):
mindset as a coach or do you just get on
with your own job?
Speaker 7 (08:45):
I know, I mean again, we had such a simple plan.
Speaker 6 (08:51):
And that was never going to change.
Speaker 7 (08:53):
In fact, after the first Test and after losing in
the first Test, it probably reaffirmed that you know, if
we did it well, it would put us in a
good position and then obviously their own issues in their
camps started to develop, but nothing changed in terms of
the way we were trying to play. Ultimately, we just
acknowledged that they were going to have to deal with,
(09:16):
you know, with certain issues where it was going to
make them weak or stronger.
Speaker 6 (09:19):
You know, that remains to be seen.
Speaker 7 (09:21):
Often guys come into teams them as adversity and stand
up and do well.
Speaker 6 (09:25):
You know, so I don't think you can.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
I've played against many different teams who have thrived under
you know, turmoil around them, So I didn't necessarily think
that this would have any bearing on on on them
and the way they play the game. And if it did,
the only way we could ever elicit sort of any
advantage out of that was to be even better with
(09:47):
our skill execution and not let them into the game.
And I think that was the important thing. It's just
focusing purely on on on that and and being better
every single time as a team. And you know, then
if they're if there are cracks in the opposition, then
that'll expose them even more.
Speaker 6 (10:02):
You know.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
The last thing you want to do is let them
into the game. And you know, we weren't. We weren't
very well, very crit clinical at certain times, but we've
got better and better throughout this series, which is great
to see.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Fairy organized man quite clearly rob Botron and he seems
to be the kind of architecture want. He doesn't want
to be in the front line of anything. He analyzes
things very clearly, and I think he makes fair points
in that little bit that we played.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Very much so Brian in fact, if you compare, I mean,
he's quiet, he likes being in the background. He's out
there first every day. I was at the ground quite
early and he was already out there looking at the
practice pictures and getting the bat ready and getting all
everything that he needed for his training and giving the throwdowns,
(10:59):
talking to the batsman. You know, he just goes about
his business in a gentle kind of way, but at
the same time make sure every box has tipped. Very
different from McCullum, isn't it. And I just highlight that
because those are That's the way the two teams behaved
(11:21):
as well. You know, New Zealand seemed much in terms
of the two sides, much more calmly determined, confronting a
lot of changes that they had to in this last
Test match. All the families there. I stayed at the
same hotel all their families there. You know, probably about
fifteen to twenty young children between sort of one and
(11:45):
four or five. A lot of noise, a lot of noise.
Tom Nathan removing a child who's being a boisterous and
has to walk them in the walker away for a
while before he can bring them back. So it's just
a nice touch, I think, and it says a lot
(12:05):
about the way that they could cope with the changes,
and there were a lot of them, weren't there with
the three Phillips and Jamison and Henry missing initially and
then of course Technic going as well with the concussion,
so and a lot to the bowling. But but yeah,
(12:27):
you know, they had to bounce back from a loss
and they won the next match pretty comfortably by two
hundred plus runs. England. I just looked they were just
in turmoil, really, a lot of rumor surrounding them, particularly
the guys in charge, a lot of innuendo, and they
(12:50):
just didn't seem as settled kind of side. And they
and the way they tried to win things was with
either well the day where they came out and just
literally could not win the Test after that hour and
a bit, they just couldn't in the game day four
and yeah, so very two very different sides under pressures,
(13:17):
particularly England with a voracious media.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Just thinking on that, I don't take much notice of
necessary normally, but he made one pertinent comment to my
mind that it was New Zealand showing England how to
do it. Yet the England camp has got a lot
of New Zealanders in terms of leadership, with Southy McCollum
and Jet and Patel in there, and that to me
was a telling point.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Well, I don't know why those three New Zealanders aren't
able to keep the rest of the side calm. There's
certainly a lot more media there, Brian, There's no doubt
about that, and there's a lot of things written and
so that place is pressure on you. But you need
to somehow retain a way of thinking about the game.
(14:04):
And I mean I think perhaps that the toss was
quite employ ston't You could see little cracks on the
first day. It was a dry pitch and the ground
staff were concerned that it was a little dry, and
of course then the two hot days occurred beyond that time.
(14:25):
It's not the only thing though, of course you've got
to still take advantage of it, don't you. And Conway,
the more aggressive and lath them, the more compact constructed,
you know. The first key element in the game, and
that was three hundred and seventeen runs in a partnership,
(14:46):
and it was it was hot work for the English side.
It was almost about perfect, wasn't it that first day?
And yet you know we lost a couple late in
the day. Phase two kind of belonged to England. I
felt four thirty eight New Zealand ten for one hundred
(15:06):
and twenty odd and then being two hundred and twenty
three for three. At the end of that day, Bethel
and Route had established themselves, you know, it evened up
and of course New Zealand. That was the day New
Zealand lost. Tichner and folks came in and made a
bit of an impression, didn't he. Actually, in terms of
wickets batted okay. But Phase three was New Zealand's again,
(15:30):
like Lazarus, they would turn from the dead. Really, I
was wondering how on earth if the pitch stayed the same,
would New Zealand get back into it. But Rute and
Betel rut and Bethel went early and they ended up
eighty four precious runs behind, and Folks left. His mark
I think was what was it three wickets something like that,
(15:52):
I think, and making the ball suddenly go down and up.
And this was the day, I think where it became
very clear that batting was not going to be easy
for the rest of the match. Ravendra in the second innings,
I mean, we lost Conway later and Nichols quickly didn't
we yep, and then Revendra set about on an innings
(16:15):
to me which kind of showed that he has the judgment,
that he has the shots that we know he can
and if he can put the two together. He kind
of worked to eradicate the first innings blunder that he
had made. And for about his first thirty balls he
(16:36):
must have been twenty two twenty three not out. He
made a significant difference to the start of that New
Zealand secondaries after losing those three early wickets, and he
took the sting out of the new ball that was
being bold. So that was it was a very important
(16:56):
little cameo to get his innings started. At the time,
Mitchell was really supportive, but no more than that it
was Revendra who was driving the way the game was changing.
And even though the conditions themselves were becoming variable, a
bit up and a bit down, there were more cracks
(17:20):
you could see day in Day three, player traffic was
becoming obvious. Running down the pitch, you could get targets,
you know, the whole pitch started to look spent and tired.
And then we got to day four when all the
things happened, was Revender and Mitchell going almost to lunch,
Revender getting out to one that just kept a smidge
(17:41):
and low, and then Mitchell for the rest of the
day accepted the responsibility. It was what you might not
call it a pretty innings, but man grim, determined, gutsy,
showed his will, showed his character and his bravery. Really,
I don't know how many times he was hit on
the hand, on the arms, on the helmet, helmets changed,
(18:05):
you know that this was an innings of the Really,
I mean, he was just terrific. I thought, I don't
know what you thought, but one hundred and seventy balls
for his first fifty, full of concentration and cleverness on
defense because the ball coming back in LBW when it
(18:26):
was keeping low was the obvious way of getting out.
He looked after his inside edge and he made sure
that it didn't hit his pad, getting it right out
in front. That was very clever defense. And so that
was an absolutely critical part of the game. The crowd
(18:47):
was shouting Mitchell boring, and he had give them a
little wave and then he'd go on and just carry
on with his defiance.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, but that's the proof that Test match cricket is
not all about reverse sweeps and T twenty cricket. It's
about putting your body on the line and taking a
hit for the team. And he played like an all Black,
didn't he in a tight situation.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
That that was a very very special Mitchell hundred and strange,
you know. Strangely enough, that first fifty actually meant a
lot more to me than the second part, which was
seventy balls for fifty. So it was the fact that
he went through all that work that gives you an
(19:36):
opportunity to play more freely later on, you know. And
he was rebuffing the Atkinsons and the Stokes and the
Archers and the tongues, you know, and you know they
were hurling themselves at him, and yet he just worked
at it, you know. So that was a key partnership.
And then Blundell and Santana wentz and then Smith and folks,
(19:59):
Folks getting out the very next ball. After of course
the crowd heard about Stokes retiring, but then we got
sixty five sixty five more critical runs after that moment,
and that again showed to me a lot about I mean,
Sears played. I saw him in the lifter, came down
(20:20):
the lift with him today. Well played, man, he said,
thank you so much. It was a great test to
be part of. And who got nineteen or fourteen hit
on the fingers had to retire hurt Also out came
o'rourt got out. Who came back and it's only been
off the field for about two minutes. Sears came back.
(20:40):
They could not pin us down.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, And I mean it was a lot of individual performances,
but no one individually stamped their total authority on the performance.
It was a real team effort, wasn't it. And I
think that that was what showed through more than anything
else when you put all those individual pieces together. And
that's why I spoke to Rob Walter about winning the
(21:04):
key moments. That was the difference between the two, wasn't it?
Speaker 4 (21:09):
And he was absolutely right, absolutely right, So three seventy
three and then there was mayhem, wasn't there. Then there
was a farcical period of and you could hear you
could hear the New Zealanders. I don't know whether you
could if you turned up the stump mic you could
hear them say whoa, they'd be laughing when Brooke got
(21:31):
out nine balls for you know, twenty one off nine
balls and quite yeah, they will laugh at what's going on?
What are they doing? It was great and it was great.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
They've taken real stick over there in the UK, haven't they.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Oh they have totally totally. It was just it was
It would have been okay if they were chasing one
hundred and seventy, not three hundred and seventy. They're used
to doing that, so that's very much the Melbourne target.
One hundred and seventy. That sort of thing, and you
might get a with a very quick start where you
(22:10):
lose wickets and you're prepared to do so. They lost
two thirds of their top order and amidst all the shots,
Bessel got out playing no shots, which is a bit ironic,
and I you know they just I couldn't understand it
what I was seeing either, so especially after they'd seen Ravendra,
(22:32):
especially after they'd seen Mitchell. But they didn't back themselves
to be able to bat the same way.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And yet they believe in themselves an ability to take
sides apart under the bas ball scenario. We'll be hearing
from Stephen Finn very shortly and also from side Man.
Just a final word from eu Jery. I know we
could talk a lot more about this and we will
reflect on it over a period of time. Do you
see personally Brendan McCallum surviving as coach?
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Well, it's got a chance because I know that there
are calls. But you know, while the inner sanctum of
McCullum and Key, I think the Key is less at
risk than McCullum just because of the job that he's got.
(23:23):
I think the ECB who will be making the decision
really Gould and co McCullum. For the first thing, he
convinced them that Gould that he had changed right we're
going back to just between us arriving and the end
of the Ashes right that period. Secondly, they won the
(23:46):
first Test Lord's which they might regard as signs of progress.
Then twenty four hours later that's gone a bit, but
not the fault of the management, not the fault of McCullum.
I think they would look at it, and they might
look at the fact that the crew the toss was
fairly important and they lost it. However, they've only had
two wins out of ten the last ten and since
(24:11):
twenty twenty three it's a losing record. So mcculum is
lucky to be there. I think That's how I feel.
But who would they what would they do? I mean,
they will probably feel that they would be more in
control if Brooker's captain than they would if it was Stoked.
(24:36):
Who would argue with them and be much more strong
about it, I think, And so they might feel that
they have got more power at that stage to run
the run the cutter if you like. So it's a
mixed and confusing picture, Wads. I don't really mind, to
be honest, I'm just thrilled New Zealand have come from
(24:58):
one down and they've won the last two Test matches convincingly.
They've deserved the victory. They've quietly gone about the way
to play Test cricket better than the opposition.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Brian Waddell, Jeremy Coney on the front foot.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
It's a pleasure to be joined by former England pasteballer
now BBC tist met special commentator Stephen Finn, who I've
been fortunate enough to work with him the past, and
of course he's a very close friend of New Zealand,
having played a bit of time here in New Zealand.
But I guess you don't celebrate sucist to the same
extent that we do when New Zealand beat England.
Speaker 8 (25:35):
Funny, Not quite, i'd say, Brian, No, not quite. It's
it's been a weird few days here. I think there's
been loads of stuff going on on our side of
the fence, clearly with the Ben Stokes retirement and all
of the conjecture around that. But nothing should be taken
away from the way New Zealand have played here. It's
(25:56):
been it's been outstanding, and I think even more so
given the fact that they were injury ravaged in this game,
missing for of their what you would consider main players
coming into this Test match, to then need a concussion
substitute as well, but still come out with a huge victory.
It's not just a small victory. This is a huge
victory here at trent Bridge. They fully deserve this series winen,
(26:19):
So I'm not celebrating it as much as you, but
I respect it as much as you.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's great. Does it reflect that there are issues in
the England game then at the moment.
Speaker 8 (26:31):
I think there's certainly a lot to look at. I
think we'll have to let the dust settle on this
series and then take a view looking forward about what
is done next. But certainly when you're beaten this badly
at home for the first time in a long time.
I think it's the first series that England have lost
at home in fourteen years, so that's a significant moment
in time. So there's going to have to be a
(26:52):
lot of reflection from the powers that v at the
ECB about how this team and how the game in
this country moves forward.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah, it's interesting because after the Lord's Test, where England
won quite comprehensibly, they were not quite the same side.
Do you think they were slightly in disarray because of
the issues that came out of that Test match.
Speaker 8 (27:14):
Well, I think clearly those things didn't help. And when
you go into the second Test match of a series
having to give three debuts and five of the players
in the team sharing two caps between them, I think
that you're certainly up against it, especially when you come
up against such a pragmatic team like New Zealand who
just seemed to have a mentality that gets every ounce
(27:35):
of talent out of each of their players on a
consistent basis. So yeah, I'm sure those events didn't help,
and certainly the disruption to the team didn't help, But
again I don't think that should take anything away from
what New Zealand have achieved him.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It was a series that I suppose small moments played
an important part, and those small moments were on both sides.
But this third Test match, I guess the opening partnership
between Latham and Conway and then the partnership between Mitchell
and Ravendra were key moment.
Speaker 8 (28:09):
Yeah, I'd say that Mitchell and Revendra partnership was the
one where I think at that stage New Zealand eight
for two was it eighteen for two something like that
in the second innings with a lead but still a
low number for two in the second innings, I think
that that was the moment that England could have come
piling through the door but both of those guys said no,
(28:31):
not today. And Daryl Mitchell's innings in particular, I thought
Revener was really classy and he put the pressure back
on the bowlers. But the way that Mitchell, he must
have worn blows on almost every inch of his body.
I think all of his fingers on his right hand
got hit, his head, his ribs, his inner thigh, and
he just kept going and was resolute in his defense
and then opened up as the innings went on when
(28:53):
he was batting with the tail to score a brilliant
Test Match hundred. So I think that was the partnership
that really won New Zealand the game. But certainly that
opening partnership, having won the toss and batted first, put
the key was in a fantastic position.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Was there relation in that for England, particularly in their
second and English when they came out with the attacking
approach that has been well part of their game in
recent times, but didn't really have the ability to adjust
to the style that was needed.
Speaker 8 (29:25):
Yeah, I think certainly that a lot can be learned
by England for the way that New Zealand played in
this series. And I think the way that New Zealand
played the moments is the most important thing. The way
that New Zealand managed to manage to play the significant
moments within games and make the right decisions in those
(29:47):
moments is what sets them apart from other teams. And
just like to fin off on Ben Stokes, Yeah, look
what a career. He's had a remarkable career. He's been
part of some of the most significant moments in English sport,
not just not just cricket in English sports. So yeah,
he's It was a surprise decision I think with the
(30:09):
Ashes just twelve months away. But a player who wears
his heart in his sleep like Ben Stokes is going
to be a sore mist for English cricket and it's
sad to see him not playing for England again.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, the timing was pretty strange. Wasn't the middle of
a Test match?
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Yes?
Speaker 8 (30:24):
Yeah, I think it was. But Ben Stokes is an
unconventional character and he doesn't do things like everyone else,
so it was kind of fitting.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Just one final question, it's been a Test series of
past bowlers. Both sides had significant past bowling bettery that
would probably please you as a former England past bowler.
Speaker 8 (30:43):
Yes, I love watching fast bowling. I think Will O'Rourke
is someone that I've really enjoyed watching, especially over the
last few weeks, but since he started his career with
New Zealand. I like my tall quicks Brian, so yeah
to see him thundering in and causing problems. I hope
his injury here that he walked off with today isn't
too bad because he's a star of the future for sure.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
All right, Fanny, thanks very much for your time.
Speaker 8 (31:06):
Patrick, No, I was sorry about that.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Might be able to catch up some other time, I
hope sounds good.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Matt, all right, thanks mate on the front foot with
Waddle and Cody.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Well, my thanks to Stephen Finn for joining us. Haven't
spoken to Finny for quite some time since he was
out here in New Zealand such a long time ago.
Another man who I've worked with over a long period
of time one of the leading commentators for BBC Test
Match specialists, Simon Mann, who's followed the trials and tribulations
(31:41):
of the game in England. And Simon, I'm sure it
must be hard for you, as a broadcaster and a
cricket fan as well to see the way things are
going at the moment. So particularly around the captaincy, the coach,
the leadership of the side, and the game is taking
second place, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (32:00):
It's nice to be with you, Brian.
Speaker 9 (32:02):
Firstly, I think one thing I would say is we've
kind of seen all this before many times over the years,
so it feels a little bit like a soap opera
sometimes English cricket nothing really surprises you. But the really
disappointing thing I think was last winter in the Ashes
where England played. They didn't prepare properly and their tactics
(32:25):
were poor, and I think that was the that felt
like the nadir, and they tried to sort it out
from here and have continuity. It's not worked. Ben Stokes
is obviously standing down. Brenda McCullum says he wants to continue.
It feels like the end of an era. It feels
like a time for change again. We'll see what happens
(32:50):
in pro sport. Watching it, observing it is fascinating. It's
better not to get too emotionally involved, and it's probably
better not to get too up or too down.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, but I mean it must be disappointing. Does it
seem to you as just another retirement story? Or are
their biggest issues involved in this peak Because England cricket
over the period of time, particularly after the Ashes had
to fight up to that defeat, there seems to be
conspiracy theories abounding far and wide. Is it a bigger
(33:21):
issue than just failure of the team at the top level.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
I think that's a really good question.
Speaker 9 (33:29):
I think that's I think sometimes you have to take
players coaches at face value.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
Not all the time.
Speaker 9 (33:36):
I think sometimes they do dissemble, but I think sometimes
you do have to take them at face value. And
what I think has been clear over the last three
weeks four weeks of this series is that Ben Stokes
has felt kind of frazzled and it has been time
to quit. So you had the Ashes where England had
all these high hopes. They thought they've got it all together,
(33:57):
they were going to challenge Australia and it fell so
flat and they were hammered in Australia and the cricket
was abysmal, and there was so much criticism and there
was so much anger among England supporters. So I think
what happened then sort of right, we're going to continue.
It's going to be the same structure they went to
the start of the season. Benston turned up at Lauds
and he just it just didn't feel right for him.
And then of course the events subsequently I think probably
(34:20):
pushed him over made him think, yeah, that really sort
of made his mind up. So I think there is
an element in which the politics, if you like, of
the situation, his frustration that like, for example, I don't
think he thought he broke a curfew on that night
out in Chelsea, but you also think, well, would after
(34:41):
everything happened in the Ashes, would the captain not think
it's best not to go out after a Test match win? So,
and whether that was kind of symptomatic of where his
head was. You know, I just need to I just
need to go out. I just need to unwind whatever
and whatever the consequences, you know, we'll find that tomorrow.
But I think what they were unlucky with is the
(35:02):
fact that the players can easily have gone out, but
no one would have known about it when it kicked off.
Speaker 5 (35:07):
In that you know, when the.
Speaker 9 (35:09):
When the the rugby player swung a punch, it then
became an incident, so we might not have ever found
out about it without that incidance. So it was kind
of an unlucky set of circumstances in a way, although
you know you put yourself in danger by going out
and then I think what happened then is that there
was a real kickback into bend stakes for that and
he thought, well, really that's just made my mind up.
(35:31):
But I'm here saying yesterday that yeah, it was, it
was part of it. But he was felt he was
kind of done. And I think the ash's defeats, especially
the nature of one England suffering in the winter, that
they're kind of hard on a on a captain and
he's been doing the job for four years, he's been
playing international cricket for well over a decade and he's
(35:52):
had always injuries over time and bounced back out all
sorts of other controversies as well and bounced back. But
in the end it might just it might just wear
you down.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
I since from Afar that he's a beloved character in
the majority of cases with people that he is regarded
as one of the best all round us that England
has been able to put out on the park. But
I don't see that the sense that there's the same
feeling about Brendan McCullum and even Rob Key, and there
(36:22):
are people on social media, I know the Keyboard Warriors
and they become anonymous. But those are the things that
basically cause issues in the administration of the game. Is
McCollum safe.
Speaker 9 (36:37):
That's again, Brian, you're asking all the personal questions and
that's a that's a very good question. I mean I
did an interview with them afterwards where I said to
you know, do you intend to carry on? He said, yeah,
I'm totally committed. I said do you expect to carry on?
And he gave me basically a one word answer, yeah,
that's part of the process or something like that.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
It's to be decided.
Speaker 9 (36:59):
Really, I think there is a there is no You
could kind of get a sense that among England cricket
sports because it's difficult without you going to speak to
all of them. I get a sense that they feel
the wrong person that's gone.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Not everyone.
Speaker 9 (37:11):
I think some people frustrated, say what Ben Staates did
after the Test match. But I think there's the feeling
that Brenda McCullum's coaching methods have run their course. Now
they work for a while because a low EBB and
they were able to kind of reinvent the team get
the fun back into the game, get the crowds going,
but then the results of a dip because teams have
adapted playing against them, they've kind of.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
Let themselves disrupt, if you like.
Speaker 9 (37:35):
And so it's time for something a bit more if
for want of a better word, a bit more serious,
a bit more strategic. So we'll see. I mean, one
aspect for Benda McCullum now is and this is slightly ridiculous,
is that because he's the white bull coach as well,
is that tomorrow England have got a white ball series
starting against India, which is high profile here. You know
(37:57):
what an India series is like, it pays all the bills,
you know, the crowds are behaving, so and there's a
World Cup next year as well as the One Day
International Series afterwards, and England are struggling in the in
the ranking in one day international cricket, so the most
important matches coming up, so it's kind of like not
just red ball, but it's also white ball as well
in England haven't been that good in one day cricket recently,
(38:18):
so there's there's a bit going into this. But then
there's a break of about a month while we played
one hundred and then there's another Test series, so there's
a bit of time after this series to sort it out,
to sort out what they're going to do.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
The sad effect of all of this is that there
was a three Test series and it produced some spectacular cricket.
At times, there were moments where individual came to the
fore and did the business. And a lot of this
is basically taking the away from the fans that there
(38:55):
is a game of cricket there and they're still turning
up to watch and there's still a lot of interest
in the game in England.
Speaker 9 (39:03):
Yeah, that the crowds have been fantastic for this Test series.
I also feel a bit sorry for New Zealand because
you know, they've come here, they won the last two
Test matches, played really good, sort of sensible, professional, hard
nosed cricket and in a way that the bench states
yesterday and the day before, his retirement has kind of
(39:25):
been the central focus and you can understand that to
some extent because it's you know, he has been an
important figure for English cricket. He was the captain and
he's produced some amazing things over the years, so you
kind of do celebrate the end of that, but it
has kind of like shifted the focus away from an
excellent performance from New Zealand and also that in a
(39:45):
way the last Test match as well, because all that
was about, you know, England sort of mixing matching their
team having to make five changes for various reasons, and
so here the story would have been so much focused
on that and very little on you know what New
Zealand have done well. I mean Daryl Mitchell for example,
what a what a fantastic innings he played. You know
(40:06):
everyone's probably seen the images of his body bruised and battered,
and you know the England supporters barracking him with boring,
boring Mitchell. But you know, if you're dal Mix and
I think he loved it. I mean, any self respecting
cricketer would love it when the crowd get on their
back like that.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
Because it shows he's making a good job of it.
Speaker 9 (40:24):
And he did and it was brilliant and just played
so well to come back in the series and win
the first that's a bit of lottery. Second Test, you know,
they exploited English problems and this one they just played
that excellent cricket but not always but you know, they
played enough of it to get over the line.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, Daryl Mitchell obviously enjoyed the fact that his father
was an all Black rugby player, probably bred that in
to his mentality. But I mean that was you know,
that was one issue. And I think in that Test
match that has just been completed, his betting should have
(41:02):
been a lesson for England. I can't believe. And I
saw some of the television footage of New Zealanders at
a fall of a wickets saying what are they doing?
And Jamie Smith I think proved that. You know, England
might well have got close had they had wickets in hand,
but they fired them away. Was that part of their mentality?
(41:26):
Was it a two fingers salute to the English cricket board.
What brought about that? Or was it just you know,
this is bearsball, will play it this way and.
Speaker 9 (41:37):
Again I wonder whether this will come out in time.
But what that was about, I mean, in a way
it was that was how Igland were playing in the
first two years. They would come out and they would
they would go at it really hard and I think
they thought the pitch was really poor and I think it, yeah,
I thought like two sevenths of the pitch was actually
quite dangerous by the end or you know, one seventh
(41:59):
of the pitch, but obviously if you didn't, if you
didn't hit those dangerous bits, then it was fine. You
could bat and you kind of bided your time like
Jamie Smith did, like Mitchell did, and if you know
you're going to take the odd blow, the wants.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
Going to fly over your shoulder.
Speaker 9 (42:14):
But if you could survive that on, you go, because
there were enough good bits of the surface to survive on.
I think they thought the pitch was poor and that
the only way that they could chase that down was
to go back to old methods, was just to really
try to put the pressure on New Zealand and take
it on.
Speaker 5 (42:28):
And it kind of worked for a bit. Brian.
Speaker 9 (42:30):
They were fifty for no wicket. I thought when they
got to about forty in the field was back. I thought,
why didn't you just knock it around, Just knock it
around and build the innings come back tomorrow and the
build the pressure on New Zealand. But States got caught
the mid wicket.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
As we know. It's also worth just bearing in mind.
Speaker 9 (42:47):
I know there were one or two extravagant shots played
by they say a media gay came in on the
pair and played reverse sweet first ball, but Bethel played
no shot. Duckett got a really good ball, So those,
you know, those were two of the wickets as well.
Harry Brooke, I think was always going to come out
and play in that way, and I'm probably in a
minority of one with that. I actually thought he was
a bit unlucky with his dismissal because the ball he
(43:10):
hit for six was very similar to the ball that
got him out, and it was there for that. It
was there for the instinctive stroke. Okay didn't execute particularly well.
He was caught on the fine name boundary and it
looked a terrible dismissal in the context of his innings.
But that could easily have sailed away for six as well.
So there was a lot going into that evening.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
I think that was it. They felt the pit was poor.
Speaker 9 (43:35):
They wanted to put the pressure back on New Zealand,
but I think the adrenaline of the situation meant they
did get a bit carried away. But I don't think
any team, I really don't think any team was chasing
three seventi on that surface, although as it turned out,
of course he zoom Brian New Zealand have had half
a bowling attack because there'd so many injuries.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
In normal circumstances, England probably would have been capable of
chasing that down if pitch conditions and other things have
been in their favor. The one final question, though, Simon,
is looking here part of your job to see what
is forthcoming in terms of England cricket. Is Harry Brooke
(44:16):
the right man to take over from being stakes?
Speaker 9 (44:24):
My instinct says no, But I don't know what the
alternatives are. That's the problem. And he has done captaincy before.
He's captain of the white ball team. I don't think
he can captain the white ball team and the Red
Bull team. Well he can captain. He obviously can't do it,
but it is the burden to be you know. For example,
I was just saying, they've just gone for a Test match,
(44:44):
they've got one day's break and they're into a twenty series.
Speaker 5 (44:47):
Well you can't.
Speaker 9 (44:48):
You can't put that on a captain, you know, how
can you plan? For example? So I wonder if they
did make Harry Brooke Red Bull captain, whether they'd have
to have a different white Ball captain relieving of the
whiteboard captaincy someone like Sam Cohen or possibly possibly even
Jacob Bethel. But how they could go back to Joe
Rooter's Test captain, but it's feels as though that ship
(45:09):
has sailed unless they say to Joe, right, Joe, you're
our captain for a year until the end of the
Ashes and that's it. You know, that's your that's your tenure.
So not appoint in England captain such, but appointed England
captain with a clear end point in mind. So the
options aren't obvious, Brian, because this is now a youngish
team and a lot of the older senior players are gone.
(45:32):
I think in the future someone like Jacob Bethel could
turn into an England captain. I'd be and I would
be if you said to me, now, do you think
one Jacob Bethel will one day Beingland Test captain? I'd
say yes, I think he probably will be. But obviously
he's got to start, you establishing himself in the team's
school runs. So not many options, Brian. That's the that's
the problem I think for England. So they kind of
(45:54):
might have to go to Harry Brook. Ben Stokes said yesterday,
you know, he said Harry Brook is the man. He
gave his firm backing afterwards, so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Brian Waddell, Jeremy Coney on the front foot, thanks.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Forms too, Slim and man for joining the program after
what has been a fairly hectic week of Test crickets
at trent Bridge and quite bizarre to a certain extent.
Peter Holland joins us once again, and I mean what
I finished to that Test match. It just highlighted to
me how superior the Black Caps were to England in
(46:30):
that series, bearing in mind the way both sides played
the latter stages of the Test.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
I think you used the word bizarre, and it was
something that was knocking around on my head as well,
because when you sit back and reflect on the three
Tests and what happened at Lord's and then to think
that two victories by New Zealand comprehensive at that should
(46:59):
ensue with essentially quite in some respects quite different teams
between the second and the third Test in regards of
bowling reserves. It was. It was truly quite mesmerizing. What
I also love. Of course we got under the fifth
(47:20):
day and twice. Wasn't that good?
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, almost definitely, even though you didn't get the number
of overs in a day you should get. I guess
we have to make allowances for the heat, but it
was it was impressive stuff from New Zealand. And you
as a well, I think he might have been sort
of vaguely and all round it, but basically a batsman
(47:45):
at the top level. You must have enjoyed some of
those innings. And I've been trying to toss up on
my mind which innings was the best, and there were
some really good ones there, but I've narrowed it down
to one between two. Was the innings of Mitchell in
the second innings and outstanding one hundred or was it
(48:07):
the innings of Phillips and his ability to combat an
evil spell of bowling by Joffra Archer. I mean, they
were both significant features of the series, weren't they.
Speaker 5 (48:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
You make a very an interesting point there, Briant, because
I I thought Mitchell, you know, earlier, earlier in the series,
wasn't really giving us what we were looking for, hadn't
really sort of clicked in, and yet that was just
just fantastic knock on every level, and the way he
went about it and the way he took England out
(48:42):
of the game against a good attack too. It's not
it's not disregard that. But then you roll back to
Phillips and as both of those innings has put New
Zealand or took the game away from England, so they
were significant. It wasn't as if it wasn't as if.
Speaker 10 (49:00):
It was just like a yeah, any hundreds of great hundred,
but these were These were special hundreds, both of them,
and in very try condition and playing in a way
which which in Phillips's case was sort of counterintuitive to
what we normally see of him, and and as Jerry
pointed out last week, trying not to play the ball
(49:21):
and getting overs into Archer which ultimately caused him in
they're boling an eight over spell which and then he
couldn't turn up the next day according to the whoever
controls these things. So Phillips that that was a fantastic noto.
But probably I end up landing on on Mitchell simply
because of the way that he just took on the
(49:43):
English attack and ge wears I mean getting belted in
the elbow, I mean that hurts, and he just shrugged
it off and attacking a couple in the ReBs if
you don't mind in the fingers. I mean, that's that's
that's that's good stuff. And I think a lot of
commentators were watching that and saying this is this is
(50:04):
a pretty special earnings and and so so it was
so I am hard to split, but I think I'm
gonna I'm gonna land on on on the case of
Mitchell because it really it really put put England out
of the game big time.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
To score one hundred against England in England is as
a as a as a great achievement.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
What this is done again when you when you sit
down and looked at the three Test series and what's
ended up happening is is that you've got Nichols coming
in and playing. And I was rather critical of him.
So I've got to eat humble pie there, You've got
to You've got a lot of pike.
Speaker 11 (50:43):
Maybe too much pike for me, but but and then
you had you had he came in and performs extremely well,
you know, gets it, gets gets a, gets a twenty
and twenty five when it was needed, you know, twenty
five off seveny odd balls.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
That sort of stuff. That's good stuff. And then then
the other players, the breadth of players we've ended up
using because you see, well the team that ended up
going me picked for the third Test, absent Phillips, absent
Henry Well. That going to be under pressure, aren't they?
You would have thought, because I argued with the world's
best bowl is not bothering, And yet they turned up.
(51:23):
And I don't know how this concussion stuff works, but
all of a sudden Zach Volks runs in and plays brilliantly,
helped in a great part by a fabulous Test series
from the keeper Blundon.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, I was going to I was going to say
that he was the next point because Nathan Smith won
the Player of the Series award and he bowled superbly,
and you know he's a new boy on the block
when when you start talking Test cricket. But to me,
it was between him and Blundell, and you know, to
keep wickets in those conditions on variable bounce against one
(52:08):
thirty five K takes guts, but it takes skill too,
doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
Oh look, I you know we touched on it before
when he when he did that back in back at
the base and reserved two three years ago. And then
it's been somewhat mimicked by Australia because all of a
sudden it brings the players back into the back onto
the crease and therefore they don't get that extra hob
which they love. Brook and Roote and those guys, all
(52:36):
of a sudden they're back there and then it opens
them up. But as you quite rightly point out, Brian
on a variable bouncing wicket and have won thirty five clicks,
I mean, Smith is no slouch. He gets it through
and then of course he's doing it to folks. The
keeping is keeping in again a more humble pie for
me to eat, because I was thinking that perhaps, you know,
(52:57):
the Canterbury keeper might have had a shot when we
were chatting about it a few weeks ago. But hell no,
Blundell has been a revelation and I really have to
applaud him because he's probably probably arguable the difference in
the whole series because of what he did at the
(53:17):
contribution across all three Test matches. I think he's fantastic
and I just think and it was a joy to watch,
and it was really interesting when you're listening and watching
on the TV how many applaudits he was getting from
people like a saying ATHLETs and broad and so on.
They were very effusive in their praise for Blundell, and
(53:39):
for that matter, they were a fusive in their praise
for New Zealand full stop, and somewhat disparaging about their
own mob.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
So an interesting time, fascinating stuff, Jerry, the kind of
cricket I know you love and like to embroil yourself
the tactics and the way players play the game. And
I'm sure you've enjoyed it, but I'm sure you also
enjoy a bit of a holiday because it's hard commentating
(54:07):
tests series that are packed together like that. The players
quite have hard but you know, mentally it's tough, isn't it,
And you need a bit of a break, So God
have you one.
Speaker 4 (54:15):
Yeah, thanks Wads. I've really enjoyed the tests. Of course,
it's always easier, as you know, if New Zealand come
out on top, and what's bred in the bone will
come out of the wicket. And so I'm delighted for
the group that I was with because they were there
(54:35):
the last and we were having breakfast together, you know.
But I'm ready for a break and looking forward to
to spending some time away and then I'll catch you
back at home, so that'll be good fun. So look
after yourself and enjoy, enjoy, and enjoy the victory.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Yeah, and you enjoy a heat wave. We'll talk again
in a week or.
Speaker 4 (55:00):
Say good words, take care of summer.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
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