July 27, 2026 • 25 mins
Former McGillicuddy Serious leader Graeme Cairns now divides his time between penny farthings, medical training and street theatre, and his latest endeavour, "doing pennants," features a bicycle-powered sewing machine.
Graeme founded the McGillicuddy Serious Party - to contest the 1984 election with its campaign plank of the Great Leap Backwards.
It predicted upheaval, chaos and the breakdown of society as we know it and a plan to insulate New Zealand from the worst excesses of the future.
Despite a defence policy of removing New Zealand from all world maps, its political ambitions came to nought, and Graeme threw in the towel in 2000.
Now known as the ‘Laird of Hamilton’, he is also a musician, a founding member of the Big Muffin Serious Band and an actor.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's real life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
You know, and welcome to real life. I'm John Cowen.
Now you could choose to have a normal life, or
you could choose to have a life like my guest tonight. Graham.
Ken's an artist who uses his own life as his canvas,
and his best known work of art was the McCulla
Cuddy Serious Party, which contested a host of national and
local elections back in the eighties and nineties, and boy
(00:55):
we missed them as we come up to another dull election.
Welcome Graham.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Good evening, John.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
It's such a privilege to talk to you. And I
could have addressed you, of course, as Graham can's led
mcgillaguddy of ram will try. I wonder if Hamilton realizes
that it has a lad.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I would say so because I've been doing it since
ninety probably ninety seventy nine, I declared myself lead of Hamilton.
They're accustomed to it. I mean, I've got a civic
award type you know, type thing. So I think the
council knew all about it.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Oh that's great. In fact, that's one of the amazing
things just reading fact through some notes is that they
you actually got quite a bit of encouragement from the
institutions and establishment that sometimes you are stacked up against.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I mean on occasion, on occasion, you know, when it
suit when it suited them, they backed us. Yeah, and
when it didn't suit them, they just they politely ignored us.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Now, I think this is going to be the thing
that people will well and truly be convinced of by
the time we finished this half out at Gavi Graham
and that is that the type of stuff that you've
been doing art, combined of humor, combined of sociology, combined
with whatever else, it actually has done some good to
New Zealand. And I think you've been a tonic and
(02:14):
so without sort of pushing it, I think that's going
to come through very clearly.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And well, I hope that we have had a positive benefit.
I mean we were intending that, yeah, people would always
ask us, you know you're going to win the selection
when we had the political party running, and one of
the ways in which we're going to win in the
broader sense was people were going to benefit from hearing
and seeing what we were doing, you know, So that's
(02:42):
a victory for us because the New Zealand becomes a
more interesting place.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yes. Yeah, I loved reading about how some counselor or
something who was mainly interested in sport and didn't claim
to have an artistic bone in his body became one
of your advocates when you were starting up is supporting
artists and things working in Hamilton.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah, that's right. So there was a chap called Dave Finlay.
He's dead unfortunately now, died young, but he was I
think he was in charge of sport for this for
the Hamlton City Council and when government had in the
early eighties, when they had those PEP schemes, they called them.
We called them Peasant Employment programs, but I think they
(03:24):
had some other official name, but you know the ones
we're met. Yes, And he decided that it would be
very good to have a scheme overseen by the Hamilton
City Council for unemployed actors, musicians and graphic artists you know,
painters to lively up the town. And so he made
sure that it happened and he would come to our
(03:45):
meetings occasionally and he'd go, look, I don't know the
first thing about art, as you said, but I love
what you're doing, and just keep doing it. And that
was a real shot now and that was great. You know.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yes, yes, I defy anyone to sort of try and
tell us how humor and art and the type of
things that you've been doing all your life actually do
work to make life better. But I am absolutely convinced
that it does.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah. So when we were doing so officially so I
was on one of the actors, and officially we were
doing touring around performing. We did some some plays, and
we did some some theater for children, went around primary schools,
and did some singing at old folks homes. And in
(04:31):
our spare time we did we did things like we
formed the Big Muffin Series band, so that's that sort
of satirical mad cap, a ukulele based skiffle band, And
also did things like surveyed off part of the middle
of town and then put up a big sign that
(04:52):
was painted up like a city council sign going something
like proposed site for the return of that's the Second
Coming of Christ, you know, like we did all sorts
of revy off the wall stuff, but because it was theater,
it was you know, it.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Was part of the job right right now, yuv, and
growing and changed in all sorts of ways, I'm sure
from what I've read and seen. But yeah, well we
all do. But I get the impression that Graham Cairns
was still actually Graham Keirns right back at Rood Boys
High School.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
It was an unusual single sex school that I went
to and wrote, possibly still is, I don't know, And
it's certainly because it was a fairly draconian and severe
regime that they had at the time. It seemed to
encourage really unusual and creative rebellion. I was only one
(05:46):
of many boys doing odd ball off the wall stuff,
so it seemed to be my memory is the more
wacky and peculiar and unpredictable you could be, the cooler
you were.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I couldn't comment. I have no idea what cool I is.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I didn't cool, but you know, but I was.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
So what were some of those things you do back
then that were in a subtle way sort of poking
your nose at, poking your tongue out at the authority
and things. What were you sort of doing.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I remember riding. So I had a bicycle, an old,
really old fashioned bike that I'd painted up with all
sorts of stupid colors. And I remember I would ride
it from class to class instead of walking, you know,
so I wouldn't part my bike in the bike rack.
I just ride, you know, ride all around the school
on it because it was faster. Also, when the school
(06:39):
had been co ed until nineteen fifty five, apparently, I
mean obviously I wasn't born then. But and when the
girls left, the girls took with them all the dress
codes for girls, and so nobody could criticize me for
growing my nails painting them, you know that, you know
that sort of thing is also, you know, we all
(07:00):
tried to grow hair as long as possible. I wore
a hairnet to keep it off my collar, because you
had to have your hair off your collar, right, which
eventually bothered the principal. And so I was told I'd
to either leave or have a haircut. So I thought
this is stupid, so I had a haircut. Yeah, just
those sorts of things. There's just really mild, mildly not
terribly imaginative small acts of rebellion, right.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
If it was that you use the word draconian, then
getting to wake out a university must have been a
breath of fresh air.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
It was fantastic. I mean, I wasn't there. I wasn't
really imagining I was going to go to university, but
it seemed to me to be an interesting way of
escaping from having to work for my parents' business, which
is a food distributing business, and so I thought I'll
go off and do that. I just thought Hamilton was
Hamilton was extraordinary. You know. When I turned up, this
(07:52):
is this is where everything's happening. And there was all
manner of free free music events and interesting bits of
street theater, and all manner of just all sorts of
interesting stuff going on. But I had not experienced in
rot a U.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I think you and I both were very fortunate to
be in the era of that so much lateral thinking
in universities at the time that people were combining sociology
of art and humor and and it was it was
just sort of creativity tumbling out all over the place.
And I think that sort of swept you up, to
(08:30):
do with the student art festivals and things.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yeah, yeah, the impression I got is that that was
what university was all about, creating as many people who
could think in an as imaginative a way as possible,
because that would benefit society. You know, they'd go off
and something. Some would be imaginative business people and artists
and chemists and doctors and you know, all manner of stuff,
(08:54):
just you know, and so that sort of experimentation and
extending your mind seemed to be what I thought universities
were all about, as opposed to providing somebody with a
with a reliable meal ticket.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah here, here I've spoken again.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
I was most impressed by the artistic side of things.
You know, there was the student's Arts Festival, and which
happened when I was there every second year. I went
to a couple of them, and then they folded. Unfortunately.
I thought it was just glorious, really glorious.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Right, and the mckillicuddies were just stated at this time,
what what was it? What did it do?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So Clan McGillicuddy, I mean, we didn't really know what
we're doing. But in our second year of university, the
whole of us got together and rented a huge house
and I guess we were sort of prankst as more
than artists. But it was very artistic. You know. There's
quite a lot of music and creative thought going on.
And for reasons which I can't quite understand, we just
(09:57):
decided to choose the traditional Scottish tribal clan system model
as our sort of modus operando, our working system. And
right from the very very very start, we set up
a sort of mutually self adopting extended family. And we
(10:18):
already had that going and before someone said one of
the co founders said we're for going to be a family.
We need a name. Okay, yeah, I suppose that's right,
you know, And he said, I thought of one, What
about McGillicuddy. I went yes. Like we didn't need explaining
or debating. We all just went, yes, that's out. That's
absolutely us, and so we It's actually an Irish name, McGillicuddy.
(10:42):
It's the name of the tallestop mountain and Ireland, but
we decided it was Scottish, and the Scottish and the
Irish are so closely writed, I didn't think it really matters.
And we decided that we weren't just a family and
we were a clan and painted the word and we
lived in a castle called your house, a castle painted
wood castle on the house aroun out of paint. So
(11:04):
I didn't actually get around to doing mcgillicudy underneath it,
but it was intended Castle McGillicuddy and probably would have
just been maybe a three or four or five year thing.
Like lots and lots of university students, you know, they
formed interesting groups and had done for a long, long
long time. But we started getting ourselves organized and we
(11:27):
started doing a structured piece of street theater, the most
the most visible of which was nonviolent sort of pacifist
mock battles.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Ah yes, yes, And we've got the White.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Hatti Militia in Dunedin to thank for teaching us that.
I was down there in Dunedin and I took part
in one would ah, this is good, this is good.
The mcguilicas will love this. And so when I came
back to Hamilton, I said, look, I did this thing.
It looked like this. These are the theories behind it,
these are the rules, this is how you do the show.
It's a lot more organized than anything we've ever done before.
(12:04):
But we'll get our friends involved, we'll dress them up,
you know, a little bit of tartan and we'll roll
up some newspaper swords and throw flower bombs at other people.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I remember reading about the one that you involved in
Down and Dunedin, and it was against the Knox students.
All these all these these rough tough actually they were
theology students, wouldn't they. But they were not dressed.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
There were certainly large fellows. And the I think the
president of the or he then became the president of
the Students' Association, was Paul Gooley. I believe he was.
He was the leader of them. I seem to remember
they all dressed in drag. So the poland Knox follows
(12:46):
a dressed in drag, and the white headed militia all
dressed either in military gear or highland regalia, quite took part.
And I just thought this is very very good, so
stylish and.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Bizarre, and there is something about that, and it was
very much the spirit of the age, wasn't it, This
idea of a wacky sense of humor, and especially when
it's played straight and dry, absolutely dead pan, absolutely dead pan.
I mean you know, it wasn't done sort of in
a sort of a pranky, silly way, was it. It
(13:20):
was done very seriously.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Well maybe apart from the show that you're not taking
yourself too seriously, but yeah, you've got to do it
authentically and properly. Otherwise it's it's it's not not such
a good.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Performance, right now. The Wizard, he had the ELFs Imperial Army, Yes, the.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
White Teddy Militia. At the time I met them, they
were they had aligned themselves with ELFs Imperial Army, so
they'd become a regiment of Elfson Perial Army, right, okay,
And the Wizard was there on that day, as was
the I think the I don't know what the title is,
but he was from the Greek local Greek or Orthodox
church blessing the battlefield, which, like it was, it was
(13:59):
very unusual. A lot of the whole lot of women
in Victorian costume sort of you know, waving their handkerchiefs
and mopping up the tears from their eyes as their
loved ones off the battle, you know, like ten feet away,
with you know, flower bombs being thrown at them funpowder
as they called it instead of gunpowder.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Right, Oh, that's fantastic and all this, Yes, so we brought.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
We started doing this in Hamilton and it probably would
have it would have just stopped there, except other people
around the country for some reason went ah, I'd like
to do this, but I want to do it in
the McGillicuddy way, And so they'd come and visit me
from other centers and go, we'd like to set up
a mcgillicudy regiment in, for example, Wellington. Really, okay, I
(14:41):
suppose if you want, this is sort of what we're doing. Okay, sure, good,
good good. I thought, you know, I thought, wow, they're
in Wellington. Possibly never have anything to do with them.
But eventually I discovered that we had regiments all over
the country, just like our Imperial Army, and so you know,
we had a structure, sort of chaotic structure, and it
was that structure which was which was sort of the
(15:04):
framework that enabled us to begin the miggle. I've got
a serious party because we already had branches in most
of the centers, the centers of the country.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Right and grafted into that, of course was your street
theater ethos as well and experience. But if you've just
joined and joined the conversation, I'm talking with Graham Ken's
I wish I was talking to him all the way
to midnight, but I've only got him until eight o'clock
and we're going to be talking a bit more about
the mcalla Cuddy Serious Party and also what he's up
to now and some of the things that he holds
(15:36):
very seriously. This is real life on News Talk's EDB.
I'm John cown talking with Graham. Ken's back with you
in just a minute.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on News
Talks AB.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Good morning, how are you shut up? Dawn?
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Give me the small talk, give me the big talk
a million six Oh, I love that big dock.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Give me some more.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
So I love that big talk, and give me some
no big talk. I love to talk to small talk
all right, had flies making spiders.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Rocking back in our life. I'm John Cowen and my
guest tonight is Graham Keirns, who for a long while
led the mcillicuddy series Party and is still involved in
street theater and all sorts of creative things. And it
wouldn't be surprising to hear that he picked that song
for us, which is a good morning, how are you
shut up? And it's I've never heard that song before,
(16:39):
but it's certainly certainly made me spile so Graham, Uh,
that that you're familiar with that artist, he's his other
stuff there that of his that you like?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, I have a couple of so he is. He
was a Scottish poet and educator and jazz musician and
publisher of books. And he's sort of like the Scottish
version of Spike Milligan released and his drawings are very
similar to spot to Spite Milligan's and a lot of
the stuff is really really similar. But he's he sort
(17:13):
of flew under the radar mostly. I never saw him alive,
but I was introduced to him by friends of mine
who used to broadcast the stuff on the Wakaa University
student radio. And I was saying, what is this? It's
just this is insane? Is this sky genuine? And it's
so whimsical and so bizarre but quite quite perceptive. Yeah,
(17:38):
and you know, there's probably a dozen of us really
keen on his stuff, and of course all around the
world he has a following, huge following, well more than
you know. Dozens of people around the world think he's
cleverest thing.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Huge. I'd consider if I had a dozen followers, I'd
consider that huge. We were talking before the break, about
the forming of your political party and how it grew
out of the Mcallicuddy clan and the Alps and the
the the mock battle culture that was spreading around, and
why politics and what we are hoping to achieve.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
It's hard hard to answer that the I never really
liked politics as a kid. I in fact, I don't
like politics much at all. But I could see that
it's it's an I mean, okay, I think politics is rubbish,
but it's very very influential rubbish. And I hated and
(18:36):
still hate the way politicians carry on. But I could
I could see that it was a very good vehicle
for saying utopian sort of utopian ideas. And also I
had already seen that unusual parties could enter the arena.
(18:59):
I've seen a couple a couple of them happen in
New Zealand. They'd been the mad Head's tea party where
a chap I think he's a law student changed his
name by Deppaul to Mickey Mouse and ran I think
in Palmerston North. I'm not one hundred percent certain, but
I just happened to catch it on television at my
unclean aunt's place one Saturday night. I didn't even know
(19:21):
this election on, but I saw this character doing this thing.
I thought, oh, okay, you can, really you can muck
around with such important stuff as that. And also later
on I encountered the Wizard of Christ Etcher's people in
the Imperial British Conservative Party in fact, assisted as sort
of campaign manager one of their people in eighty one
(19:44):
to run against Marylyn Wearing. So I'd seen that you
could do it, you know, I was aware sort of
what the nuts and bolts of doing this kind of
stuff were. And then I ran for Mayor of Hamilton
eighty three with a whole lot of sort of medi
turn the town, redeveloped the town into medieval tourist attraction.
(20:06):
That was the general theory. But I you know, I
was able to do some quite satirical things about the
proposed new city council building and whether we know how
we should treat the wycke at a river, and you know,
so all sorts of stuff which just fed into that,
and just said things like, you know, don't build a
council building, build a much cheaper castle and put back
the Garden Place hill that was dug out in ninety
(20:28):
thirty nine and divert the whycke at a river east
and west around Hamilton former moat, you know, and you
know all these things which fed in, they fed into
and satirized debates that were going on at the time,
and that worked quite well. Didn't get many votes, but.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
You know, I think you got about three percent.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Well I got one hundred and eleven votes, right.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And later on you got three percent. I think, oh yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
And so the next year we contested seats in the
general election Hamilton East, Hamilton West and Wykato and by
then we had the Mglicuty Serious Party and then it spread,
you know, Parless north Ston, Eden, and you know, it
just got bigger and bigger and bigger. But you know,
so the idea is not entirely original. You know, we've
seen other people do it. We knew how to do it.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
You'd have to be careful because I was reading about
about parody parties around the world and one of them,
the Beer Party in Poland, ended up winning sixteen seats
in their parliament. And that would have been a terrible blow.
Wondered if you'd actually got elected and have to do,
you know, being there, But it would.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Have been it was just a few of us in parliament,
it would have been hard work. I think we would
have got we would have yeah, we would have got
stick from every direction and it would have been it
would have been lonely there, I think, particularly if we
are trying to follow our election policies, we could have
(21:52):
been a very irritating spanner in the week.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
In the works, right, And you had wonderful election policies.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Well one of them was. One of them was sackle
in pace, including ourselves and Crown Bonnie Prince Jeffrey on
the throne of New Zealand, who was a low budget
Scottish monarch who wouldn't cost the country anything at all
in upkeep, you know. So and as a benevolent dictator
that would be much much much better form of parliament
(22:22):
because he could just make the decisions for you know,
thirty or forty years. He would be consistent, be consistent
and cheap, you know, and good because he's a smart fellow,
very bright fellow.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Does he exist.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
He does exist absolutely, in fact, in fact interestingly enough
so he was he was the one that thought up
the name McGillicuddy, and he got the first kilt in
the town mcgillicuty and started wearing it. And he also
got us interested in Scottish history by penning a challenge
to was it a christ church when you're speaking at
Waka University. So we embarked on the whole Scottish versus
(22:59):
English thing that has you know, we imported that historical disagreement.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Graham, we are coming up to the I'm appalled we
are coming up to the end of the hour and
there was so much stuff that I was wanting to
talk to you about, including if you're an eccentric person,
do you have a center that you revolve around? What
is the guts of what you actually drives your motives
and your ethics and things. Do you have one what
do you yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:27):
If the thing's worth doing, it's worth doing humorously.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
That's not bad because humor works, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (23:34):
It does, it's it's it's a very effective communication tool,
and particularly if you're able to poke fun at both
sides of an entrenched argument and yourself, not only do
you send up the people who would have have you
believe it's either a black and white issue, but you
(23:55):
also get everybody thinking more broadly and it can reduce
xenophobia and reduce fear and hatred and also just people
laughing is great.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
All power to your Graham. I'm glad that you've had
that influence in that area and that you're still having
influence through your music and through the work that you're
doing in the community down there. And I'll just urge
people to go online and track down the stuff and
have a look at the pictures of a toothbrush fence
that he's erected and all sorts of stuff that he's
involved in. Still active, still going for bringing it, but
a humor and color and thought provoking activity to our
(24:30):
New Zealand life. Graham Kenn's thank you so much for
being part of real life.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Thank you. And I hear about to play the song
we thought should be the new national anthem of New Zealand. Yes,
except we thought we thought the lyrics should be sung
to the tune of the existing national anthem.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
That's quite well, there is no depression in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, yep, it's really well. There is no depression in
New Zealand, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yes, this is real life. Be back with you next
Sunday
Speaker 1 (24:59):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's real life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
You know, and welcome to real life. I'm John Cowen.
Now you could choose to have a normal life, or
you could choose to have a life like my guest tonight. Graham.
Ken's an artist who uses his own life as his canvas,
and his best known work of art was the McCulla
Cuddy Serious Party, which contested a host of national and
local elections back in the eighties and nineties, and boy
(00:55):
we missed them as we come up to another dull election.
Welcome Graham.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Good evening, John.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
It's such a privilege to talk to you. And I
could have addressed you, of course, as Graham can's led
mcgillaguddy of ram will try. I wonder if Hamilton realizes
that it has a lad.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I would say so because I've been doing it since
ninety probably ninety seventy nine, I declared myself lead of Hamilton.
They're accustomed to it. I mean, I've got a civic
award type you know, type thing. So I think the
council knew all about it.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Oh that's great. In fact, that's one of the amazing
things just reading fact through some notes is that they
you actually got quite a bit of encouragement from the
institutions and establishment that sometimes you are stacked up against.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I mean on occasion, on occasion, you know, when it
suit when it suited them, they backed us. Yeah, and
when it didn't suit them, they just they politely ignored us.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Now, I think this is going to be the thing
that people will well and truly be convinced of by
the time we finished this half out at Gavi Graham
and that is that the type of stuff that you've
been doing art, combined of humor, combined of sociology, combined
with whatever else, it actually has done some good to
New Zealand. And I think you've been a tonic and
(02:14):
so without sort of pushing it, I think that's going
to come through very clearly.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And well, I hope that we have had a positive benefit.
I mean we were intending that, yeah, people would always
ask us, you know you're going to win the selection
when we had the political party running, and one of
the ways in which we're going to win in the
broader sense was people were going to benefit from hearing
and seeing what we were doing, you know, So that's
(02:42):
a victory for us because the New Zealand becomes a
more interesting place.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yes. Yeah, I loved reading about how some counselor or
something who was mainly interested in sport and didn't claim
to have an artistic bone in his body became one
of your advocates when you were starting up is supporting
artists and things working in Hamilton.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah, that's right. So there was a chap called Dave Finlay.
He's dead unfortunately now, died young, but he was I
think he was in charge of sport for this for
the Hamlton City Council and when government had in the
early eighties, when they had those PEP schemes, they called them.
We called them Peasant Employment programs, but I think they
(03:24):
had some other official name, but you know the ones
we're met. Yes, And he decided that it would be
very good to have a scheme overseen by the Hamilton
City Council for unemployed actors, musicians and graphic artists you know,
painters to lively up the town. And so he made
sure that it happened and he would come to our
(03:45):
meetings occasionally and he'd go, look, I don't know the
first thing about art, as you said, but I love
what you're doing, and just keep doing it. And that
was a real shot now and that was great. You know.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yes, yes, I defy anyone to sort of try and
tell us how humor and art and the type of
things that you've been doing all your life actually do
work to make life better. But I am absolutely convinced
that it does.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah. So when we were doing so officially so I
was on one of the actors, and officially we were
doing touring around performing. We did some some plays, and
we did some some theater for children, went around primary schools,
and did some singing at old folks homes. And in
(04:31):
our spare time we did we did things like we
formed the Big Muffin Series band, so that's that sort
of satirical mad cap, a ukulele based skiffle band, And
also did things like surveyed off part of the middle
of town and then put up a big sign that
(04:52):
was painted up like a city council sign going something
like proposed site for the return of that's the Second
Coming of Christ, you know, like we did all sorts
of revy off the wall stuff, but because it was theater,
it was you know, it.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Was part of the job right right now, yuv, and
growing and changed in all sorts of ways, I'm sure
from what I've read and seen. But yeah, well we
all do. But I get the impression that Graham Cairns
was still actually Graham Keirns right back at Rood Boys
High School.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
It was an unusual single sex school that I went
to and wrote, possibly still is, I don't know, And
it's certainly because it was a fairly draconian and severe
regime that they had at the time. It seemed to
encourage really unusual and creative rebellion. I was only one
(05:46):
of many boys doing odd ball off the wall stuff,
so it seemed to be my memory is the more
wacky and peculiar and unpredictable you could be, the cooler
you were.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I couldn't comment. I have no idea what cool I is.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I didn't cool, but you know, but I was.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
So what were some of those things you do back
then that were in a subtle way sort of poking
your nose at, poking your tongue out at the authority
and things. What were you sort of doing.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I remember riding. So I had a bicycle, an old,
really old fashioned bike that I'd painted up with all
sorts of stupid colors. And I remember I would ride
it from class to class instead of walking, you know,
so I wouldn't part my bike in the bike rack.
I just ride, you know, ride all around the school
on it because it was faster. Also, when the school
(06:39):
had been co ed until nineteen fifty five, apparently, I
mean obviously I wasn't born then. But and when the
girls left, the girls took with them all the dress
codes for girls, and so nobody could criticize me for
growing my nails painting them, you know that, you know
that sort of thing is also, you know, we all
(07:00):
tried to grow hair as long as possible. I wore
a hairnet to keep it off my collar, because you
had to have your hair off your collar, right, which
eventually bothered the principal. And so I was told I'd
to either leave or have a haircut. So I thought
this is stupid, so I had a haircut. Yeah, just
those sorts of things. There's just really mild, mildly not
terribly imaginative small acts of rebellion, right.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
If it was that you use the word draconian, then
getting to wake out a university must have been a
breath of fresh air.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
It was fantastic. I mean, I wasn't there. I wasn't
really imagining I was going to go to university, but
it seemed to me to be an interesting way of
escaping from having to work for my parents' business, which
is a food distributing business, and so I thought I'll
go off and do that. I just thought Hamilton was
Hamilton was extraordinary. You know. When I turned up, this
(07:52):
is this is where everything's happening. And there was all
manner of free free music events and interesting bits of
street theater, and all manner of just all sorts of
interesting stuff going on. But I had not experienced in
rot a U.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I think you and I both were very fortunate to
be in the era of that so much lateral thinking
in universities at the time that people were combining sociology
of art and humor and and it was it was
just sort of creativity tumbling out all over the place.
And I think that sort of swept you up, to
(08:30):
do with the student art festivals and things.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yeah, yeah, the impression I got is that that was
what university was all about, creating as many people who
could think in an as imaginative a way as possible,
because that would benefit society. You know, they'd go off
and something. Some would be imaginative business people and artists
and chemists and doctors and you know, all manner of stuff,
(08:54):
just you know, and so that sort of experimentation and
extending your mind seemed to be what I thought universities
were all about, as opposed to providing somebody with a
with a reliable meal ticket.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah here, here I've spoken again.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
I was most impressed by the artistic side of things.
You know, there was the student's Arts Festival, and which
happened when I was there every second year. I went
to a couple of them, and then they folded. Unfortunately.
I thought it was just glorious, really glorious.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Right, and the mckillicuddies were just stated at this time,
what what was it? What did it do?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So Clan McGillicuddy, I mean, we didn't really know what
we're doing. But in our second year of university, the
whole of us got together and rented a huge house
and I guess we were sort of prankst as more
than artists. But it was very artistic. You know. There's
quite a lot of music and creative thought going on.
And for reasons which I can't quite understand, we just
(09:57):
decided to choose the traditional Scottish tribal clan system model
as our sort of modus operando, our working system. And
right from the very very very start, we set up
a sort of mutually self adopting extended family. And we
(10:18):
already had that going and before someone said one of
the co founders said we're for going to be a family.
We need a name. Okay, yeah, I suppose that's right,
you know, And he said, I thought of one, What
about McGillicuddy. I went yes. Like we didn't need explaining
or debating. We all just went, yes, that's out. That's
absolutely us, and so we It's actually an Irish name, McGillicuddy.
(10:42):
It's the name of the tallestop mountain and Ireland, but
we decided it was Scottish, and the Scottish and the
Irish are so closely writed, I didn't think it really matters.
And we decided that we weren't just a family and
we were a clan and painted the word and we
lived in a castle called your house, a castle painted
wood castle on the house aroun out of paint. So
(11:04):
I didn't actually get around to doing mcgillicudy underneath it,
but it was intended Castle McGillicuddy and probably would have
just been maybe a three or four or five year thing.
Like lots and lots of university students, you know, they
formed interesting groups and had done for a long, long
long time. But we started getting ourselves organized and we
(11:27):
started doing a structured piece of street theater, the most
the most visible of which was nonviolent sort of pacifist
mock battles.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Ah yes, yes, And we've got the White.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Hatti Militia in Dunedin to thank for teaching us that.
I was down there in Dunedin and I took part
in one would ah, this is good, this is good.
The mcguilicas will love this. And so when I came
back to Hamilton, I said, look, I did this thing.
It looked like this. These are the theories behind it,
these are the rules, this is how you do the show.
It's a lot more organized than anything we've ever done before.
(12:04):
But we'll get our friends involved, we'll dress them up,
you know, a little bit of tartan and we'll roll
up some newspaper swords and throw flower bombs at other people.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I remember reading about the one that you involved in
Down and Dunedin, and it was against the Knox students.
All these all these these rough tough actually they were
theology students, wouldn't they. But they were not dressed.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
There were certainly large fellows. And the I think the
president of the or he then became the president of
the Students' Association, was Paul Gooley. I believe he was.
He was the leader of them. I seem to remember
they all dressed in drag. So the poland Knox follows
(12:46):
a dressed in drag, and the white headed militia all
dressed either in military gear or highland regalia, quite took part.
And I just thought this is very very good, so
stylish and.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Bizarre, and there is something about that, and it was
very much the spirit of the age, wasn't it, This
idea of a wacky sense of humor, and especially when
it's played straight and dry, absolutely dead pan, absolutely dead pan.
I mean you know, it wasn't done sort of in
a sort of a pranky, silly way, was it. It
(13:20):
was done very seriously.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Well maybe apart from the show that you're not taking
yourself too seriously, but yeah, you've got to do it
authentically and properly. Otherwise it's it's it's not not such
a good.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Performance, right now. The Wizard, he had the ELFs Imperial Army, Yes, the.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
White Teddy Militia. At the time I met them, they
were they had aligned themselves with ELFs Imperial Army, so
they'd become a regiment of Elfson Perial Army, right, okay,
And the Wizard was there on that day, as was
the I think the I don't know what the title is,
but he was from the Greek local Greek or Orthodox
church blessing the battlefield, which, like it was, it was
(13:59):
very unusual. A lot of the whole lot of women
in Victorian costume sort of you know, waving their handkerchiefs
and mopping up the tears from their eyes as their
loved ones off the battle, you know, like ten feet away,
with you know, flower bombs being thrown at them funpowder
as they called it instead of gunpowder.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Right, Oh, that's fantastic and all this, Yes, so we brought.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
We started doing this in Hamilton and it probably would
have it would have just stopped there, except other people
around the country for some reason went ah, I'd like
to do this, but I want to do it in
the McGillicuddy way, And so they'd come and visit me
from other centers and go, we'd like to set up
a mcgillicudy regiment in, for example, Wellington. Really, okay, I
(14:41):
suppose if you want, this is sort of what we're doing. Okay, sure, good,
good good. I thought, you know, I thought, wow, they're
in Wellington. Possibly never have anything to do with them.
But eventually I discovered that we had regiments all over
the country, just like our Imperial Army, and so you know,
we had a structure, sort of chaotic structure, and it
was that structure which was which was sort of the
(15:04):
framework that enabled us to begin the miggle. I've got
a serious party because we already had branches in most
of the centers, the centers of the country.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Right and grafted into that, of course was your street
theater ethos as well and experience. But if you've just
joined and joined the conversation, I'm talking with Graham Ken's
I wish I was talking to him all the way
to midnight, but I've only got him until eight o'clock
and we're going to be talking a bit more about
the mcalla Cuddy Serious Party and also what he's up
to now and some of the things that he holds
(15:36):
very seriously. This is real life on News Talk's EDB.
I'm John cown talking with Graham. Ken's back with you
in just a minute.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on News
Talks AB.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Good morning, how are you shut up? Dawn?
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Give me the small talk, give me the big talk
a million six Oh, I love that big dock.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Give me some more.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
So I love that big talk, and give me some
no big talk. I love to talk to small talk
all right, had flies making spiders.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Rocking back in our life. I'm John Cowen and my
guest tonight is Graham Keirns, who for a long while
led the mcillicuddy series Party and is still involved in
street theater and all sorts of creative things. And it
wouldn't be surprising to hear that he picked that song
for us, which is a good morning, how are you
shut up? And it's I've never heard that song before,
(16:39):
but it's certainly certainly made me spile so Graham, Uh,
that that you're familiar with that artist, he's his other
stuff there that of his that you like?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, I have a couple of so he is. He
was a Scottish poet and educator and jazz musician and
publisher of books. And he's sort of like the Scottish
version of Spike Milligan released and his drawings are very
similar to spot to Spite Milligan's and a lot of
the stuff is really really similar. But he's he sort
(17:13):
of flew under the radar mostly. I never saw him alive,
but I was introduced to him by friends of mine
who used to broadcast the stuff on the Wakaa University
student radio. And I was saying, what is this? It's
just this is insane? Is this sky genuine? And it's
so whimsical and so bizarre but quite quite perceptive. Yeah,
(17:38):
and you know, there's probably a dozen of us really
keen on his stuff, and of course all around the
world he has a following, huge following, well more than
you know. Dozens of people around the world think he's
cleverest thing.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Huge. I'd consider if I had a dozen followers, I'd
consider that huge. We were talking before the break, about
the forming of your political party and how it grew
out of the Mcallicuddy clan and the Alps and the
the the mock battle culture that was spreading around, and
why politics and what we are hoping to achieve.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
It's hard hard to answer that the I never really
liked politics as a kid. I in fact, I don't
like politics much at all. But I could see that
it's it's an I mean, okay, I think politics is rubbish,
but it's very very influential rubbish. And I hated and
(18:36):
still hate the way politicians carry on. But I could
I could see that it was a very good vehicle
for saying utopian sort of utopian ideas. And also I
had already seen that unusual parties could enter the arena.
(18:59):
I've seen a couple a couple of them happen in
New Zealand. They'd been the mad Head's tea party where
a chap I think he's a law student changed his
name by Deppaul to Mickey Mouse and ran I think
in Palmerston North. I'm not one hundred percent certain, but
I just happened to catch it on television at my
unclean aunt's place one Saturday night. I didn't even know
(19:21):
this election on, but I saw this character doing this thing.
I thought, oh, okay, you can, really you can muck
around with such important stuff as that. And also later
on I encountered the Wizard of Christ Etcher's people in
the Imperial British Conservative Party in fact, assisted as sort
of campaign manager one of their people in eighty one
(19:44):
to run against Marylyn Wearing. So I'd seen that you
could do it, you know, I was aware sort of
what the nuts and bolts of doing this kind of
stuff were. And then I ran for Mayor of Hamilton
eighty three with a whole lot of sort of medi
turn the town, redeveloped the town into medieval tourist attraction.
(20:06):
That was the general theory. But I you know, I
was able to do some quite satirical things about the
proposed new city council building and whether we know how
we should treat the wycke at a river, and you know,
so all sorts of stuff which just fed into that,
and just said things like, you know, don't build a
council building, build a much cheaper castle and put back
the Garden Place hill that was dug out in ninety
(20:28):
thirty nine and divert the whycke at a river east
and west around Hamilton former moat, you know, and you
know all these things which fed in, they fed into
and satirized debates that were going on at the time,
and that worked quite well. Didn't get many votes, but.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
You know, I think you got about three percent.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Well I got one hundred and eleven votes, right.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And later on you got three percent. I think, oh yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
And so the next year we contested seats in the
general election Hamilton East, Hamilton West and Wykato and by
then we had the Mglicuty Serious Party and then it spread,
you know, Parless north Ston, Eden, and you know, it
just got bigger and bigger and bigger. But you know,
so the idea is not entirely original. You know, we've
seen other people do it. We knew how to do it.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
You'd have to be careful because I was reading about
about parody parties around the world and one of them,
the Beer Party in Poland, ended up winning sixteen seats
in their parliament. And that would have been a terrible blow.
Wondered if you'd actually got elected and have to do,
you know, being there, But it would.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Have been it was just a few of us in parliament,
it would have been hard work. I think we would
have got we would have yeah, we would have got
stick from every direction and it would have been it
would have been lonely there, I think, particularly if we
are trying to follow our election policies, we could have
(21:52):
been a very irritating spanner in the week.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
In the works, right, And you had wonderful election policies.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Well one of them was. One of them was sackle
in pace, including ourselves and Crown Bonnie Prince Jeffrey on
the throne of New Zealand, who was a low budget
Scottish monarch who wouldn't cost the country anything at all
in upkeep, you know. So and as a benevolent dictator
that would be much much much better form of parliament
(22:22):
because he could just make the decisions for you know,
thirty or forty years. He would be consistent, be consistent
and cheap, you know, and good because he's a smart fellow,
very bright fellow.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Does he exist.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
He does exist absolutely, in fact, in fact interestingly enough
so he was he was the one that thought up
the name McGillicuddy, and he got the first kilt in
the town mcgillicuty and started wearing it. And he also
got us interested in Scottish history by penning a challenge
to was it a christ church when you're speaking at
Waka University. So we embarked on the whole Scottish versus
(22:59):
English thing that has you know, we imported that historical disagreement.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Graham, we are coming up to the I'm appalled we
are coming up to the end of the hour and
there was so much stuff that I was wanting to
talk to you about, including if you're an eccentric person,
do you have a center that you revolve around? What
is the guts of what you actually drives your motives
and your ethics and things. Do you have one what
do you yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:27):
If the thing's worth doing, it's worth doing humorously.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
That's not bad because humor works, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (23:34):
It does, it's it's it's a very effective communication tool,
and particularly if you're able to poke fun at both
sides of an entrenched argument and yourself, not only do
you send up the people who would have have you
believe it's either a black and white issue, but you
(23:55):
also get everybody thinking more broadly and it can reduce
xenophobia and reduce fear and hatred and also just people
laughing is great.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
All power to your Graham. I'm glad that you've had
that influence in that area and that you're still having
influence through your music and through the work that you're
doing in the community down there. And I'll just urge
people to go online and track down the stuff and
have a look at the pictures of a toothbrush fence
that he's erected and all sorts of stuff that he's
involved in. Still active, still going for bringing it, but
a humor and color and thought provoking activity to our
(24:30):
New Zealand life. Graham Kenn's thank you so much for
being part of real life.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Thank you. And I hear about to play the song
we thought should be the new national anthem of New Zealand. Yes,
except we thought we thought the lyrics should be sung
to the tune of the existing national anthem.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
That's quite well, there is no depression in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, yep, it's really well. There is no depression in
New Zealand, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yes, this is real life. Be back with you next
Sunday
Speaker 1 (24:59):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
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