April 26, 2026 • 23 mins
After a 30-year legal career specialising in resource management and iwi claims, Ron Crosby retired in 2007 to focus on writing, often drawing from his extensive experience as a bush explorer to inform his historical research.
His work is noted for its deep focus on te ao Māori and military history, including seminal titles such as The Musket Wars (1999) and Kūpapa: The Bitter Legacy of Māori Alliances with the Crown(2015)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good day and welcome to Real Life. I'm John Cowan,
and yesterday was ANZAC Day, of course, and like many
New Zealanders, I was at a parade remembering the sacrifice
of earlier generations of people in the services and also
honoring those who serve today in the defense forces. And
my guest tonight is historian Ron Crosby, and he's written
two books on the New Zealand SAS and his latest
(00:56):
is called Stay Calm, We're coming. Welcome Ron, Oh, it's great. Nice,
it's great to have you on the program. And congratulations
on your latest book. You've you've racked up a fair
few books by now would this be a bit a
dozen you've done or how many have you done?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I think this is the tenth, the tenth the.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, Well, look forward to whatever else comes out of
your out of your word processor, because it's good stuff.
But before we talk about your book, tell us a
bit about yourself, because you haven't always been a story
and a writer.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
No true. I trained as a barrister and practiced as
a barristers. I was about fifty to fifty three something
of that order, and wrote a book on the musket
Wars between the We became very interested, obviously in historical
research doing that, and wisely or unwisely, but with the
(01:54):
support of my wife Maggie, made the decision to pull
out of the law and against the advice of one
of my sons who said to me, well, you're never
going to make a cent out of writing New Zealand
History's quite right.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
But.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It's been a neat time since then writing those various books.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And so what is it that launched you into actually
having a passion in history?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Oh? Look, I think that really does stem way back
to when I was just you know, first reading really
and I read read history obsessively ever since. I'm not
sure how old you are, John, and the Arthur Me's encyclopedias,
you know, I remember.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I remember them, Yes, the red volumes there.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
That's right. And my mother, my mother, to my father's fury,
being enticed by traveling salesman to buy a whole set.
And I was the only one in the family who
sort of waded through most of the history that I
could in that so ever since those days. But the
real trigger really was probably my father in law, Magatoki Comedy,
(03:04):
who when he passed I was fortunate enough to be
given his Mariori history books, and there was a whole
new world about which I knew nothing, And so it
took me about ten years to wade my way through
most of those and realized that there was no one
(03:26):
book drawing together all of that pre treaty history, which
is so important as to where we are nowadays. And
so I embarked on writing The musket Balls to try
and attempt that.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I'd love to get you back on to I know
you've talked on radio often about that, about those earlier
books that you did, but that whole pre treaty history
and it's bearing on issues of today is still very
very relevant. So perhaps are on White Tongue you day.
It might get you back sometime to talk about that,
(03:58):
because you've had an ongoing despite your hanging up your
cloak as a barrister, you've continued to sit on various
panels and committees and commits, and including the White Tangy Tribunal.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yes, correct. I was fortunate enough to have a warrant
with fighting and rebeal for about twelve or thirteen years,
and a lot of that I suspect was based on
the history books that I had written.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Right, Well, I think you've got a fair bit of
credibility there. You know your stuff. Now you've written a
general history of the sas up to was it twenty
ten or something, to the history from the start to about.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
That earlier than that two thousand and five five.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
But this latest book covers more recent events, and you've
selected the four major events in particular that happened in
Afghanistan of what the essays did so to run us
run over Specifically, what this latest book of yours, which
is called Stay Calm, We're coming, what does it particularly cover.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Well, it relates in a thematics sense. It relates to
the saving of life which the regiment was involved in
Kabul and surrounding districts on a particular operation called Operation
Wati where they were engaged from two thousand and nine
to twenty twelve, and that involved the mentoring of an
(05:28):
Afghan special police force, not a military force, but police
force called the Crisis Response Unit with our chaps having
to try and ensure that they were up to speed
and capable of responding to terrorist attacks on Kabul as
the center of government in Afghanistan. From the Taliman viewpoint,
(05:48):
that was the locality that was strategically most important because
there was the seat of government. If they could demonstrate
that the government was unable to protect the people of
Afghanistan from terrorist attacks when they were achieving their purpose
to try and respond to that involved a number of
different Afghan police units who were meant by various special forces,
(06:12):
and in New Zealand's case that happened to be the
christ Response Unit Incable, which made the New Zealand effort
strategically very important.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I believe it was very frustrating at times dealing with
the local forces with a different culture, a different command structures,
different ideas of what should be done.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, look, I think initially there was a learning curve
for both sides. Very diplomatically put, the CiU were not
that well equipped. They certainly weren't that well trained when
the keyw you started working with them, and when they
were having to respond as they did very soon to
(06:54):
having to respond to what were termed spectacular terrorist attacks.
I aimed at, particularly at international civilians. Then it was
necessary for our blocks to be at the sharp point
really of the responses.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And though the terrorists were deliberately shifting their attention to
international targets, I guess to attract international.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Attention absolutely and undermine, which has been a bit of
a pattern in various locations in history, undermine the support
and Western democracies for an ongoing military presence in their country.
And the way the best way to do that was
(07:40):
to just have us constant bearers of scenes of carnage
appearing on Western television. So a lot of those attacks
that the unit had to respond to was were timed
in such a way that they would be on primetime
TV in the Western nations.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
And you just use the word carnage, and that's not
an understatement. There were suicide bombers and people being made
down by guns, and our guys had to go in
there and rescue people.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah, very definitely. And the two of the three response
operations on Operation Martia that I selected were just three,
but they were three very significant ones. But in each
of them, in two of those cases, entry into the
various compounds was achieved by the insurgents blowing vbi these
(08:34):
vehicle born and provised explosive devices with colossal force to
make entry into the compound, and then David embark on
their killing of people that were inside. In the third case,
in the Hotel Intercontinental, they burst in through the reception area,
killing the people as they went in. So yeah, pretty
(08:55):
horrific scenes that had to be responded to. And those
insurgents were always in those three instances wearing suicide vests
which had in most cases impregnant ad ball bearing coverings, etc.
So that when they did self detonate at the last
stage of the responses, they tried to take out as
(09:15):
many of the responders as they could.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
The title of your book, Stay Calm, We're Coming It
comes out of what are those events.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Indeed, it was one of at the British Council where
again had been vehicle born, improvised explosive device entry and
an unknown as in each of those cases, an unknown
number of insurgents are heavily under up as machine guns
and the like, and the immediate reaction was by a
(09:51):
couple of guards who happened to be in the compound,
who very courageously gave time for the British people who
were involved to be able to get to a safer
room from which they were rescued by the NZ SAS
and CRU when they made entry under far and the
two Gurky guards involved managed to get up onto the roof,
(10:14):
but they were exposed there to insurgent fire, and so
they were constantly using their cell phone to plead with
the commander of the young Commander of the Essays Strikeforce
to assist them. He was under pressure because it really
was his only source of communication because there was a
(10:37):
electronic expression of other communications. He was needing to deal
with his headquarters with his men and try and get
these hostages out. His way of dealing with that was
to keep saying reassuring them keep calm, We're coming, and
keeping his own voice calm. Afterwards, the two Gurky Yuards
(10:58):
were so grateful that they sent a letter of thanks
and accompanied with an engraved tea set that they bought
for the regiment on which was engraved keep Calm, we
are coming. So hence the title.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
This is an a Zach Weekend special. I'm talking with
Ron Crosby about the about his latest book, Stay Calm,
We're Coming, Dealing the dealing with the actions of the
New Zealand Sas in Afghanistan and as in a weekend
we'd remember our fallen soldiers and service people. Will be
(11:34):
talking after the break about Douglas Grant and Leon Smith
who lost their lives and from the Sas in those
actions there. So join us in just a few minutes
talking with Ron Crosby on real Life. Back with you
in just a.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Minute, intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
News Talk ZB.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Welcome back to real life. I'm John Cown talking with
author and historian Ron Crosby and hespect a beautiful water.
What are we listening to?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Their on well to hooking Ama was the water that
was composed for the return of the exhibition to Maori
exhibitions in New Zealand, and it just happens to have
a very major significance in my wife Margie's fano because
her uncle John Camarera was who was in the Mari Battalion,
(12:28):
introduced them all to that wata and happened to be
representing the battalion up on the East coast. And after
he spoke his war toto or was to Hawking Amy
and as it was sung, he sat back in his
chair and passed away. So it has major significance from
(12:49):
their viewpoint, right.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Okay, that's that's quite a story. And you do gather
up stories and you dedicate your book, your latest book,
to these two soldiers that lost their lives in Afghanistan.
Can you tell us a little bit about them in
the circumstances?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Well, I think the best way of instancing it is
that the front cover is a cover of a photograph
rather of two insed SAS soldiers heading into the British
Council compound. And the right hand of those one of
those two figures is corporate Douglas Grant, and he was
(13:32):
sadly killed a few hours after that photograph was taken
as he was courageously trying to exit from where they
had released managed to gather up the British hostages and
he was trying to make contact with the strike troop
and he had his wife was Tina Grant. He had
two young children at the time, and Tina has subsequently
(13:57):
gone on to become very highly respected because she identified
a gap really of support that INZDF needed to be
able to provide for FUNO.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
So ironic. The SAS is sort of pronouned to be
so well prepared and trained and able to adapt to things,
and yet the New Zealand Defense Force itself didn't seem
to cope with soldiers dying. They seemed to be a
gap in the as you say in the in the
care that they provided for their family Infarno.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Well, look, I think if you look historically, though, John,
to be fair to the engine, if the casualty figures
in the First World War, Second World War, you know,
were just overwhelming, so there was never any possibility of
that sort of FARO care and support in those in
those conflicts. Certainly, as we've got on and modern at times,
(14:56):
people have become far more aware of the effects of
war on FARNO for service personnel, and I think that
really what Tenor's experience has shown as just how helpful
that can be. And she's set up her own small
trust that effect, which is referred to in the book,
and it's well supported through by the Defense Force. The
(15:20):
other chap Leon Smith showed tremendous courage at that British
Council incident in that he and one other senior n
CEO leapt over the compound wall knowing that Douglas Trant
had highly likely been shot, and they nonetheless leapt over
(15:41):
that compound wall and raced under fire and recovered his body.
And yeah, sadly he was killed two or three weeks
later in a direct action outside Kibble.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
The proceeds of your book Going to a Trust tell
us about that trust.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
The Injured essays Trust is a trust that's set up
to ensure support for members of the regiment and their
families and has been doing that very successfully, but only
obviously with the support of the public and some very
generous donors and some very able trustees who've ensured that
(16:23):
that support is available, And instances are given in the
book of the support of Tena Grant's Faro and Elizabeth
Askins Farno Steve Askin being an extremely courageous bloke who
was right at the forefront in the Hotel Intercontinental incident,
which is again mentioned in the book, and their families
(16:46):
have given as some of the examples of the sort
of support where the trust does.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Talking of Ron Crosby, you've written this book called Stay Calm,
We're coming about the actions of the sas in Afghanistan
for selected incidents that he goes into in great detail.
It's interesting that a man of my generation and grows
up knowings just absorbing a lot about the world wars,
(17:13):
and I'd like to think that I know quite a
bit about them, and yet I know so little about
what our New Zealand forces were doing in Afghanistan. The
stacks of books on World War Two, I believe yours
are the first ones on the sas in Afghanistan. There's
a real there's quite a vacuum, there isn't there There is?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
And I've been in a very privileged possession of having
an association with the Essays Trust and being able to
interview members of the regiment as we've captured their memories,
And for me it became a standout that these Operation
Martier responses, but also Operation Corcakor when they uplifted the
(17:59):
three hundred odd people that they did from that swirling
mass of thousands of people at Kabul Airport were desperate
to escape from the talibant. Those were tales that to
my mind, demanded telling, and it was important I felt
for the public to be aware of those. But also,
(18:19):
you know, and that provides the social license for these
sorts of what do you mean by that term social
license is really the if you like the tacit approval
that any organization it's going to be successful, that is
representing the public in any way has to have and
(18:39):
has to maintain. And to do that, you've really got
to have people understanding and being aware of what you're
capable of and what contribution you can make. The NZ
says regiment is one of our few strategic assets that
we can offer in a coalition sense for the defense
of our nation because the cost of defense is so
horrendously high in nowadays. It's so technical, but it's an
(19:03):
elite unit which has the capabilities, skills and now experience
to be able to offer, which is valued by coalition members.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
If I go overseas to Australia or America, the military
have a much higher profile and there's more expressed pride
in the armed forces there. Do you think in New
Zealand we run the risk of undervaluing our military and
devaluing the contribution they make. They just don't seem to
enter into the popular imagination quite as much as they
(19:38):
do in perhaps other countries. We at a risk of
losing that support for that social license that you call.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, look, I think the way you've just expressed that's
very valid and concerning, because we don't live in a
bubble and that's been demonstrated to us very much at
the moment and with what's happening in the Middle East,
and these are events that are beyond our control. The
only way really that as a more nation like New
(20:09):
Zealand unable to provide the expertise and the complex technical
defense that is necessary for any nation, the only way
to provide that is to link in with like minded
nations in their coalition. Those like minded nations may change
over time. We've seen them change from Britain to the
(20:32):
US and who knows. Now if you listen to the
promise for Canada and those are you know, we need
to be able as a nation, to be able to
provide a strategically valued contribution. And the essays happened to
be one of those major.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Essays at ANZAC parades and stories that I hear about
the conflicts of last century. There's this idea that the
New Zealand fighting forces had a particular character about them,
a ferocity but also perhaps a less formal approach to
certain aspects of military life and intense loyalty to each
(21:11):
other and also a sense of humanity. Do you see
the Sas standing in that tradition? Do they have those
sorts of qualities that we sort of associate with the
Vedeggas and the soldiers of previous conflicts.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Absolutely, and the hearts and mind type of philosophy for
whenever they've deployed has been very much uppermost. And their
ability in Afghanistan, and we're with the Afghan crisis response
in their ability to meld in with them, to actually
have mentors who were actually living in their barracks and
(21:46):
living alongside the demonstrated that very specifically. And yeah, look,
the tenants are the pursuit of excellence, the highest levels
of discipline obviously, humility and humor, and all of those
(22:07):
tenets go to making what I regard as very well rounded,
very approachable and very capable operators.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
And well, Rob, thank you so much for writing the
book that honors of these guys that serve us and
serve the world in this important way. And so as
worth tracking down this book. Stay calm, We are coming
a story of New Zealand's Sas in Afghanistan. This has
been real life. I'm John Cown I've been talking to
(22:38):
Ron Crosby and he's picture, there's some more music to
go out on. What what's this last song that we've
got here? Ron?
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Are there are nine million bicycles in Beijing and just
appeals for me for two very simple reasons. First is
that it reminds you of the old truism that no
matter how important you may think you are, or any
subject you're working on might be, there's actually a billion
people in China who really are not affected Bart, and
so it makes you aware of how insignificant reach. But
(23:08):
what it does do is emphasize the important significance and
importance of love for those who are close to you.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Fantastic, Thanks so much, Ron, This is real life. I'll
be back with you again next Sunday night, and you
know that I.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Will love you.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
For more from News Talks at b Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good day and welcome to Real Life. I'm John Cowan,
and yesterday was ANZAC Day, of course, and like many
New Zealanders, I was at a parade remembering the sacrifice
of earlier generations of people in the services and also
honoring those who serve today in the defense forces. And
my guest tonight is historian Ron Crosby, and he's written
two books on the New Zealand SAS and his latest
(00:56):
is called Stay Calm, We're coming. Welcome Ron, Oh, it's great. Nice,
it's great to have you on the program. And congratulations
on your latest book. You've you've racked up a fair
few books by now would this be a bit a
dozen you've done or how many have you done?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I think this is the tenth, the tenth the.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, Well, look forward to whatever else comes out of
your out of your word processor, because it's good stuff.
But before we talk about your book, tell us a
bit about yourself, because you haven't always been a story
and a writer.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
No true. I trained as a barrister and practiced as
a barristers. I was about fifty to fifty three something
of that order, and wrote a book on the musket
Wars between the We became very interested, obviously in historical
research doing that, and wisely or unwisely, but with the
(01:54):
support of my wife Maggie, made the decision to pull
out of the law and against the advice of one
of my sons who said to me, well, you're never
going to make a cent out of writing New Zealand
History's quite right.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
But.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It's been a neat time since then writing those various books.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And so what is it that launched you into actually
having a passion in history?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Oh? Look, I think that really does stem way back
to when I was just you know, first reading really
and I read read history obsessively ever since. I'm not
sure how old you are, John, and the Arthur Me's encyclopedias,
you know, I remember.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I remember them, Yes, the red volumes there.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
That's right. And my mother, my mother, to my father's fury,
being enticed by traveling salesman to buy a whole set.
And I was the only one in the family who
sort of waded through most of the history that I
could in that so ever since those days. But the
real trigger really was probably my father in law, Magatoki Comedy,
(03:04):
who when he passed I was fortunate enough to be
given his Mariori history books, and there was a whole
new world about which I knew nothing, And so it
took me about ten years to wade my way through
most of those and realized that there was no one
(03:26):
book drawing together all of that pre treaty history, which
is so important as to where we are nowadays. And
so I embarked on writing The musket Balls to try
and attempt that.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
I'd love to get you back on to I know
you've talked on radio often about that, about those earlier
books that you did, but that whole pre treaty history
and it's bearing on issues of today is still very
very relevant. So perhaps are on White Tongue you day.
It might get you back sometime to talk about that,
(03:58):
because you've had an ongoing despite your hanging up your
cloak as a barrister, you've continued to sit on various
panels and committees and commits, and including the White Tangy Tribunal.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yes, correct. I was fortunate enough to have a warrant
with fighting and rebeal for about twelve or thirteen years,
and a lot of that I suspect was based on
the history books that I had written.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Right, Well, I think you've got a fair bit of
credibility there. You know your stuff. Now you've written a
general history of the sas up to was it twenty
ten or something, to the history from the start to about.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
That earlier than that two thousand and five five.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
But this latest book covers more recent events, and you've
selected the four major events in particular that happened in
Afghanistan of what the essays did so to run us
run over Specifically, what this latest book of yours, which
is called Stay Calm, We're coming, what does it particularly cover.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Well, it relates in a thematics sense. It relates to
the saving of life which the regiment was involved in
Kabul and surrounding districts on a particular operation called Operation
Wati where they were engaged from two thousand and nine
to twenty twelve, and that involved the mentoring of an
(05:28):
Afghan special police force, not a military force, but police
force called the Crisis Response Unit with our chaps having
to try and ensure that they were up to speed
and capable of responding to terrorist attacks on Kabul as
the center of government in Afghanistan. From the Taliman viewpoint,
(05:48):
that was the locality that was strategically most important because
there was the seat of government. If they could demonstrate
that the government was unable to protect the people of
Afghanistan from terrorist attacks when they were achieving their purpose
to try and respond to that involved a number of
different Afghan police units who were meant by various special forces,
(06:12):
and in New Zealand's case that happened to be the
christ Response Unit Incable, which made the New Zealand effort
strategically very important.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I believe it was very frustrating at times dealing with
the local forces with a different culture, a different command structures,
different ideas of what should be done.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, look, I think initially there was a learning curve
for both sides. Very diplomatically put, the CiU were not
that well equipped. They certainly weren't that well trained when
the keyw you started working with them, and when they
were having to respond as they did very soon to
(06:54):
having to respond to what were termed spectacular terrorist attacks.
I aimed at, particularly at international civilians. Then it was
necessary for our blocks to be at the sharp point
really of the responses.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And though the terrorists were deliberately shifting their attention to
international targets, I guess to attract international.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Attention absolutely and undermine, which has been a bit of
a pattern in various locations in history, undermine the support
and Western democracies for an ongoing military presence in their country.
And the way the best way to do that was
(07:40):
to just have us constant bearers of scenes of carnage
appearing on Western television. So a lot of those attacks
that the unit had to respond to was were timed
in such a way that they would be on primetime
TV in the Western nations.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
And you just use the word carnage, and that's not
an understatement. There were suicide bombers and people being made
down by guns, and our guys had to go in
there and rescue people.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Yeah, very definitely. And the two of the three response
operations on Operation Martia that I selected were just three,
but they were three very significant ones. But in each
of them, in two of those cases, entry into the
various compounds was achieved by the insurgents blowing vbi these
(08:34):
vehicle born and provised explosive devices with colossal force to
make entry into the compound, and then David embark on
their killing of people that were inside. In the third case,
in the Hotel Intercontinental, they burst in through the reception area,
killing the people as they went in. So yeah, pretty
(08:55):
horrific scenes that had to be responded to. And those
insurgents were always in those three instances wearing suicide vests
which had in most cases impregnant ad ball bearing coverings, etc.
So that when they did self detonate at the last
stage of the responses, they tried to take out as
(09:15):
many of the responders as they could.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
The title of your book, Stay Calm, We're Coming It
comes out of what are those events.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Indeed, it was one of at the British Council where
again had been vehicle born, improvised explosive device entry and
an unknown as in each of those cases, an unknown
number of insurgents are heavily under up as machine guns
and the like, and the immediate reaction was by a
(09:51):
couple of guards who happened to be in the compound,
who very courageously gave time for the British people who
were involved to be able to get to a safer
room from which they were rescued by the NZ SAS
and CRU when they made entry under far and the
two Gurky guards involved managed to get up onto the roof,
(10:14):
but they were exposed there to insurgent fire, and so
they were constantly using their cell phone to plead with
the commander of the young Commander of the Essays Strikeforce
to assist them. He was under pressure because it really
was his only source of communication because there was a
(10:37):
electronic expression of other communications. He was needing to deal
with his headquarters with his men and try and get
these hostages out. His way of dealing with that was
to keep saying reassuring them keep calm, We're coming, and
keeping his own voice calm. Afterwards, the two Gurky Yuards
(10:58):
were so grateful that they sent a letter of thanks
and accompanied with an engraved tea set that they bought
for the regiment on which was engraved keep Calm, we
are coming. So hence the title.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
This is an a Zach Weekend special. I'm talking with
Ron Crosby about the about his latest book, Stay Calm,
We're Coming, Dealing the dealing with the actions of the
New Zealand Sas in Afghanistan and as in a weekend
we'd remember our fallen soldiers and service people. Will be
(11:34):
talking after the break about Douglas Grant and Leon Smith
who lost their lives and from the Sas in those
actions there. So join us in just a few minutes
talking with Ron Crosby on real Life. Back with you
in just a.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Minute, intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
News Talk ZB.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Welcome back to real life. I'm John Cown talking with
author and historian Ron Crosby and hespect a beautiful water.
What are we listening to?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Their on well to hooking Ama was the water that
was composed for the return of the exhibition to Maori
exhibitions in New Zealand, and it just happens to have
a very major significance in my wife Margie's fano because
her uncle John Camarera was who was in the Mari Battalion,
(12:28):
introduced them all to that wata and happened to be
representing the battalion up on the East coast. And after
he spoke his war toto or was to Hawking Amy
and as it was sung, he sat back in his
chair and passed away. So it has major significance from
(12:49):
their viewpoint, right.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Okay, that's that's quite a story. And you do gather
up stories and you dedicate your book, your latest book,
to these two soldiers that lost their lives in Afghanistan.
Can you tell us a little bit about them in
the circumstances?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Well, I think the best way of instancing it is
that the front cover is a cover of a photograph
rather of two insed SAS soldiers heading into the British
Council compound. And the right hand of those one of
those two figures is corporate Douglas Grant, and he was
(13:32):
sadly killed a few hours after that photograph was taken
as he was courageously trying to exit from where they
had released managed to gather up the British hostages and
he was trying to make contact with the strike troop
and he had his wife was Tina Grant. He had
two young children at the time, and Tina has subsequently
(13:57):
gone on to become very highly respected because she identified
a gap really of support that INZDF needed to be
able to provide for FUNO.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
So ironic. The SAS is sort of pronouned to be
so well prepared and trained and able to adapt to things,
and yet the New Zealand Defense Force itself didn't seem
to cope with soldiers dying. They seemed to be a
gap in the as you say in the in the
care that they provided for their family Infarno.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Well, look, I think if you look historically, though, John,
to be fair to the engine, if the casualty figures
in the First World War, Second World War, you know,
were just overwhelming, so there was never any possibility of
that sort of FARO care and support in those in
those conflicts. Certainly, as we've got on and modern at times,
(14:56):
people have become far more aware of the effects of
war on FARNO for service personnel, and I think that
really what Tenor's experience has shown as just how helpful
that can be. And she's set up her own small
trust that effect, which is referred to in the book,
and it's well supported through by the Defense Force. The
(15:20):
other chap Leon Smith showed tremendous courage at that British
Council incident in that he and one other senior n
CEO leapt over the compound wall knowing that Douglas Trant
had highly likely been shot, and they nonetheless leapt over
(15:41):
that compound wall and raced under fire and recovered his body.
And yeah, sadly he was killed two or three weeks
later in a direct action outside Kibble.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
The proceeds of your book Going to a Trust tell
us about that trust.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
The Injured essays Trust is a trust that's set up
to ensure support for members of the regiment and their
families and has been doing that very successfully, but only
obviously with the support of the public and some very
generous donors and some very able trustees who've ensured that
(16:23):
that support is available, And instances are given in the
book of the support of Tena Grant's Faro and Elizabeth
Askins Farno Steve Askin being an extremely courageous bloke who
was right at the forefront in the Hotel Intercontinental incident,
which is again mentioned in the book, and their families
(16:46):
have given as some of the examples of the sort
of support where the trust does.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Talking of Ron Crosby, you've written this book called Stay Calm,
We're coming about the actions of the sas in Afghanistan
for selected incidents that he goes into in great detail.
It's interesting that a man of my generation and grows
up knowings just absorbing a lot about the world wars,
(17:13):
and I'd like to think that I know quite a
bit about them, and yet I know so little about
what our New Zealand forces were doing in Afghanistan. The
stacks of books on World War Two, I believe yours
are the first ones on the sas in Afghanistan. There's
a real there's quite a vacuum, there isn't there There is?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
And I've been in a very privileged possession of having
an association with the Essays Trust and being able to
interview members of the regiment as we've captured their memories,
And for me it became a standout that these Operation
Martier responses, but also Operation Corcakor when they uplifted the
(17:59):
three hundred odd people that they did from that swirling
mass of thousands of people at Kabul Airport were desperate
to escape from the talibant. Those were tales that to
my mind, demanded telling, and it was important I felt
for the public to be aware of those. But also,
(18:19):
you know, and that provides the social license for these
sorts of what do you mean by that term social
license is really the if you like the tacit approval
that any organization it's going to be successful, that is
representing the public in any way has to have and
(18:39):
has to maintain. And to do that, you've really got
to have people understanding and being aware of what you're
capable of and what contribution you can make. The NZ
says regiment is one of our few strategic assets that
we can offer in a coalition sense for the defense
of our nation because the cost of defense is so
horrendously high in nowadays. It's so technical, but it's an
(19:03):
elite unit which has the capabilities, skills and now experience
to be able to offer, which is valued by coalition members.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
If I go overseas to Australia or America, the military
have a much higher profile and there's more expressed pride
in the armed forces there. Do you think in New
Zealand we run the risk of undervaluing our military and
devaluing the contribution they make. They just don't seem to
enter into the popular imagination quite as much as they
(19:38):
do in perhaps other countries. We at a risk of
losing that support for that social license that you call.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, look, I think the way you've just expressed that's
very valid and concerning, because we don't live in a
bubble and that's been demonstrated to us very much at
the moment and with what's happening in the Middle East,
and these are events that are beyond our control. The
only way really that as a more nation like New
(20:09):
Zealand unable to provide the expertise and the complex technical
defense that is necessary for any nation, the only way
to provide that is to link in with like minded
nations in their coalition. Those like minded nations may change
over time. We've seen them change from Britain to the
(20:32):
US and who knows. Now if you listen to the
promise for Canada and those are you know, we need
to be able as a nation, to be able to
provide a strategically valued contribution. And the essays happened to
be one of those major.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Essays at ANZAC parades and stories that I hear about
the conflicts of last century. There's this idea that the
New Zealand fighting forces had a particular character about them,
a ferocity but also perhaps a less formal approach to
certain aspects of military life and intense loyalty to each
(21:11):
other and also a sense of humanity. Do you see
the Sas standing in that tradition? Do they have those
sorts of qualities that we sort of associate with the
Vedeggas and the soldiers of previous conflicts.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Absolutely, and the hearts and mind type of philosophy for
whenever they've deployed has been very much uppermost. And their
ability in Afghanistan, and we're with the Afghan crisis response
in their ability to meld in with them, to actually
have mentors who were actually living in their barracks and
(21:46):
living alongside the demonstrated that very specifically. And yeah, look,
the tenants are the pursuit of excellence, the highest levels
of discipline obviously, humility and humor, and all of those
(22:07):
tenets go to making what I regard as very well rounded,
very approachable and very capable operators.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
And well, Rob, thank you so much for writing the
book that honors of these guys that serve us and
serve the world in this important way. And so as
worth tracking down this book. Stay calm, We are coming
a story of New Zealand's Sas in Afghanistan. This has
been real life. I'm John Cown I've been talking to
(22:38):
Ron Crosby and he's picture, there's some more music to
go out on. What what's this last song that we've
got here? Ron?
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Are there are nine million bicycles in Beijing and just
appeals for me for two very simple reasons. First is
that it reminds you of the old truism that no
matter how important you may think you are, or any
subject you're working on might be, there's actually a billion
people in China who really are not affected Bart, and
so it makes you aware of how insignificant reach. But
(23:08):
what it does do is emphasize the important significance and
importance of love for those who are close to you.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Fantastic, Thanks so much, Ron, This is real life. I'll
be back with you again next Sunday night, and you
know that I.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Will love you.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
For more from News Talks at b Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com