April 5, 2026 • 24 mins
TJ is stepping into the role after nearly two decades of high-impact humanitarian work across Africa, North America, and right here in the Pacific. A familiar face in the sector, TJ previously served as the organization’s Associate National Director and currently chairs the New Zealand Council for International Development.
Now a proud Kiwi citizen, he brings a unique global perspective and a deep passion for connecting the generosity of New Zealanders with communities in need.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real life with John Cowen
on News Talk s EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Gooday, welcome to real life and Happy Easter. When we
look around to find interesting people to interview on real life,
it's amazing how many of the most fascinating and heroic
people are in the not for profit sector. I'll probably
never be billionaires, but changing the world, and my guest
tonight is in that category. He's the new leader of
World Vision and New Zealand. Welcome TJ grant Cura.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
John, it's great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Before I ask you to tell us about yourself. Tell
us a bit about World Vision. I know many New
Zealanders are familiar with it. We've still got the overdose
and body sugars from forty our famines and things in
a bloodstream. Tell us a bit more about World Vision life.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
It's a real privilege, John, to be leading World Vision
in New Zealand. As you mentioned, there's a rich history
of World Vision in terms of the World Vision forty
Hour Famine. Now we've changed it to the World Vision
forty hour challenge to children whose people who sponsor children
around the world and help to bring that long lasting
community development and transformational change to responding to disasters and
(01:38):
emergencies around the world. And I really believe our vision
at World Vision is twofold, our vision for every child
life and all its fullness. So we exist to help
vulnerable children around the world to experience the fullness of life,
the fullness of opportunities that we believe every child deserves.
And then the second part is our prayer for every
(01:59):
heart the will to make it so. So the belief
in the transformation of kiwis that when they engage, when
they partner with World Vision, when they are generous and
reach out beyond their lives, transformation goes both ways.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Right now, it's very appropriate at East that we're talking
to you from World Vision because World Vision is well
known as a Christian organization, But in what way is
a Christian when it actually comes down to the work
that you're doing in the refugee camps and communities. How
is it different from any of the other aid organizations
(02:35):
that might have a different motivation.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
So World Vision's faith foundations come from its founding over
seventy five years ago.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
And really you can think about it.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
When we think of a scriptural kind of foundation, I
think of Matthew twenty five, where Jesus says, whatever you
did for the least of these brothers or sisters of mine,
you did for me. So our calling to reach out
to the most vulnerable, to the most challenging and hardest
to reach places comes from what we believe is, you know,
Jesus's ministry and calling to reach out to those most
(03:10):
vulnerable brothers or sisters or people that was really at
the heart of his ministry when he was on Earth,
you know, over to millennium ago.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
And so then what does it look like for Worldvision.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
To live this out today in twenty twenty six and
how does that outwork?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And how's that different? World Vision?
Speaker 4 (03:29):
You know, we work with all people, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, culture.
I mean might be surprised to know that we're the
second largest I GEO in the Muslim world. So we're
working across the world in many different spaces, in Afghanistan
and Somalia, in many different countries. I think what makes
us distinct and the way we define it is our
(03:52):
long term community presence, So we walk together with communities.
We're there, we're present in the places where we work
for decades. Certainly, it's that faith based view. So we
take a holistic view of development, which looks at the
physical needs people have, but also the mental and the
(04:12):
spiritual needs people have. There's a real rich history in
thinking and literature around poverty.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
It's not just being a physical.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Challenge that people deal with, but there's a spiritual poverty
and brokenness that can happen over generations when people aren't
giving opportunities, when they've been marginalized. And so bringing change
in the mind and the heart and the spirit as
well as tangibly physically is a huge part of what
makes transformation possible.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
And then we partner with well, can I just interject
there and just say a more cynical person than myself
might say, Ah, by doing that, are you meaning actually
converting them to being Christian? Are you actually holding rice
in one hand and a Bible in the other and
seeking to evangelize for your work?
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Well, I'm happy to clarify John that debt is definitely
not the case. So we're not evangeli people, but we
are sharing through the love and the work that we do,
you know, the message of Jesus, you know, not through
words necessarily, but through the deeds and actions that we have.
But we work with all people and so there's no expectation,
(05:24):
there's no proselytization happening where you know, there's some expectation
that people are Christian or need to become Christian to
receive help or support from World Vision. As I say,
the fact that we're working in so many contexts around
the world, like the second largest i GEO in the
Muslim world, I think just speaks to the fact that
(05:46):
we're able to operate and work really effectively and powerfully
with local communities in many different contexts. And what I
was going to say is we definitely partner with churches
and Christians, but all people across all different backgrounds in
New Zealand Kiwis are supporters and actually what power and
make the work of World Vision possible? Right?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Do you sometimes find that difficult to hold Christians back?
You know, when you're working with local churches, they might
have their own agenda, they might have their own social
ideas that might be a little bit different from World Visions.
How do you actually control how you aid hits the
ground in these places if you're working through these other
(06:28):
agencies like churches.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah, so with I mean with churches, And I'll respond
a bit to say the control is probably the wrong word,
because we're really working in partnership. But I'll give you
a great example actually in partnering with churches and dealing
with different cultural beliefs and practices. So one of the
real powerful models that we've had as a program, an
(06:52):
approach called Channels of Hope, and Channels of Hope is
a model that we've worked with churches, actually with Muslim
leaders in many countries and other places where it's using scripture,
it's using theology to actually shift mindsets around how harmful
gender norms, around harmful gender practices in many countries where
(07:13):
women or children are whether they're physically abused or early
marriage or seen as second class citizens and not empowered.
And actually, you know, John, in a lot of these communities,
religious leaders or communities are some of the most powerful
voices and influences for a lot of these communities, and
(07:34):
so actually working with them to help them to have
a different perspective, to see development from a more holistic lens,
is actually a really powerful way to bring change along
with working directly with people, and so it's working together
with them to reshape and shift mindsets and beliefs, actually
(07:55):
sometimes using the power of scripture or other things that
they would understand and helping them to see those things
in a new way.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right now, coming back to yourself, your accent betrays the
American origin. So tell us a bit about your story.
You obviously started somewhere in America.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
You're close, John, Yeah, just to the north of America.
So America.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I know that that's a sensitive thing sometimes, So whereabouts
in Canada.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
So grew up just outside of Toronto, John, and we're
you know, we're proud Kiwis now we've been here for
seven and a half years and got New Zealand citizenship
last year. But I'd love to tell you one story
actually from Canada to to maybe the World Vision. And
I think it just grounds for me a bit of
my story how I came into this work and provides
(08:50):
the faith connection as well.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
So if you'll bear with me, when my.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Wife and I first finished university and got married.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
In Canada, we went to the University of Guelf.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
We first got married and we moved to Taiwan and
we were teaching English.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
So we moved to Taiwan.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
We're teaching English, We're having a fun time, just adventuring,
hanging off student loans.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
A couple months in there, John, I had this feeling.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
This sense that something was missing in what we were doing,
that there was something more we were called to do,
but I couldn't tell you what it was. And my
wife had the same feeling. So that evening we prayed
on it and we just said, you know what, God,
if you want to open up a door here in
Taiwan for us to volunteer help out in some way,
we'll walk through it.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Well.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
The very next day, we were tutoring English at a
doctor's house and they had a lovely Filipino made.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
We had a great conversation and.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
She must have picked something up because she gave us
a name, two names, and a phone number, and she said,
you have to call these people. These people were tedembev Skiles,
these Christian missionaries that had opened up an orphanage in
Taiwan and had been there for like thirty years. So
we went to go volunteer at this orphanage. John every
Thursday evening for two years and these Thursday evenings at
(10:00):
the Orphanage, in hindsight, was transformative for me, and it
shifted from being a volunteering a good thing to this
epiphany one Thursday evening looking down at one of these
little babies and having the realization that these Thursday evenings
at the Orphanage had become the most important thing I
was doing, the most important part of my week. And
I thought, why what has happened on these Thursday evenings
(10:21):
to make this so transformative for me? These babies are
never going to remember my name, they weren't going to
know I was here.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I'm just changing their diapers? What's going on here?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
And what I thought at the time, John, as a
new Christian at the time, was that, you know, maybe
God and Jesus was sharing his love threw me to
these little ones. You know, I'm answering that call to
you know, when you're generous, when you care, when you
share love outside yourself, something powerful can happen. And you know,
maybe that has some small contribution to those babies lives
(10:49):
and their futures. And I'll tell you, John, and I
know we've got a minute or two before the break,
but that that's half the story, and what I've learned
two decades on in World Vision and working around the
world and now New Zealand is to see the other
half of the story of what was happening on those
Thursday evenings at the Orphanage.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Right, Okay, look, I want to follow up on that
because obviously you're getting a lot back from those babies,
not just but goos and ahs from the baby, but
you're getting something else in your heart, and I want
to talk about that after the break. If you're just
joined us, I'm talking to the new leader of New
Zealand World Vision, t J. Grant, and he's telling a
something of his story and about his faith and about
(11:31):
the work of World Vision. This is real life on
News Talks dB back with you.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
In just a minute, intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's
real life on News Talk s.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Ed b.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Cosipure, Welcome back to real life, Cown and I'm talking
with TJ. Grant from World Vision, who picked that song
a very obviously very Christian song. What are we listening to?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
There? So ten thousand reasons from my heart to find
from Matt Redmond John and I love that song and
one of the reasons I love. It is because in
different seasons of my life I found different reasons to
find God's blessings and finding God's blessings in different ways
and sometimes in an unexpected way. So it always speaks
(12:38):
to me, but it also speaks to me differently in
different seasons.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Right, Well, I'm interested that you find blessings when you
go to such awful places. It does well Vision work
in I can't remember how many countries, is it ninety, yeah,
almost one hundred, almost one hundred and twenty six of them,
I believe are active conflict zones, and you go to
the worst parts of those places, and you must see
(13:03):
some awful things. And I'm just wondering. You're saying, you
see God's blessings and experience, doesn't it get you down.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
It's a good question, John, And you know traveling with
World Vision working in many places for the past two decades.
So I was in South Sudan just last week, actually
right up on the border with Sudan, one of the
worst humanitarian crises in the world. And to your question,
one of the things I really wrestled with when I'm
(13:34):
up there is where is God in the midst of
situations like this? When there's thirty million people in need
of humanitarian assistance, and aid funding globally is shrinking and
being cut, and so World Vision is providing the only
basic health care and the only clean water. And say
one of these refugee transit centers for twenty five thousand people,
(13:56):
and you meet a mother who's been separated from her
husband and her kids, and she's surviving on the basic
essentials that World Vision and others can provide.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And she's heard that her husband and her.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Kids are have arrived somewhere else in Sosudan, but she's
got no way to get there. Or you talk to
a grandmother who's lost everything three times and literally goes
and tries to find firewood to make charcoal to sell,
and if she can sell it, then she can feed
her children, and if she can't, then they go hungry.
And so John, you do ask Where's God in this?
(14:29):
And the answer to me was interesting and maybe not surprising,
but it was a powerful reminder. And the answer I
go to a Maori proverb fakatoki, which I really really love,
which says, hey aha temea nui o te ao hey
tangata hey tangata hey Tangata. What is the most important
thing in the world and where is the answer?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
It is in the people. It is the people. It
is the people.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
And I remember John actually meeting a John, a young
man named John in Juba at the end of my
trip and at the age of thirteen, he had to
flee a village in Sudan from a conflict.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
He's living on the streets as an orphan.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
He somehow gets identified by a church pastor with some
other street kids and gets an education, which is wonderful.
But when the civil war breaks out, the pastor's killed
and he's back on the streets. He's living John, if
you can imagine this, in a cemetery in Juba. And
he told me the reason he was living in a
cemetery is because the only people there are dead people
(15:31):
and grieving people, and it's where he felt like he belonged.
And this is where you think, where is God in this?
In twenty fifteen and now there's he's the only person
in the cemetery. But then now because the conflict and
the war, imagine this, there's an estimated seven to ten
thousand people living in this cemetery in Juba, in South
Sudan and shacks and living on graves.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Real story.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
And John tells me in twenty fifteen, they had this,
they had to They decided nothing. They decided to worship
God and pray God, pray to God. And I said, look,
why would you do that there? That seems so counterintuitive.
It'd be the last thing I would think to do.
And he said, we had nowhere else to turn. It
was the only thing we could do, and we believed
(16:13):
we were still alive and there was a future for us.
Twenty seventeen, the Catholic Church there locally identifies these people
and gives them permission. Now today, can you imagine this
is Pastor John and he's got this little Tinshak church
in the middle of this cemetery in the middle of Juba,
(16:34):
with all these street people, homeless people, refugees living in shacks,
and World Visions connected with them recently last year and
doing some local outreach. And so I had a chance
to sit down with John and hear his story and
that he can have faith, that he can have hope
and bring light in one of the most darkest places
you can imagine.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
John, That's what continues.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
To inspire me and give me hope that there's resilience,
and there's faith, and there's people doing incredible things in
incredibly challenging circumstances, and we have the privilege to come
alongside and partner. John, I told you about Taiwan and
the babies and the Thursday evenings, And why was the
time with the babies in Taiwan so important? Why am
I so passionate about this work two decades on? And
(17:18):
I'll tell you why. John. It's not just because I
was bringing the love of Jesus to these babies on
the Thursday evenings.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
They were bringing the love of Jesus to me.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
I was experiencing Jesus with those little babies on the
Thursday evenings.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
They were enriching my life, They were enriching my story.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
They were uplifting me and growing my faith by stepping
out and having that experience.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Matthew twenty five says, whatever you did for the least
of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did for me.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
I believe Jesus is saying, like you can experience and
see me there now when you step out, when you
reach out, when you walk alongside, when you partner, when
you're generous beyond yourself and you partner with those like
pastor John, like the refugee mother, those people in the
really difficult circumstances. And I really believe is the privilege
(18:11):
of calling the mission that World Vision has had.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
So that's something that keeps you, you and your staff
guting it is.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
It does, and that's why John like taking on this
leadership role with World Vision New Zealand. I was intentional
that my first trip should be to.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
A place like so Sudan.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
We have to keep grounded in the reality of what's
happening in the world.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
What are the challenges people face, and how can we respond.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Okay, something of Easter in that story, I mean it's
eastera Now, it's obviously a significant thing for you. For
a lot of people, it just means chocolate and bunnies
and buns and a couple of days off. But for
a person of faith like yourself, it means something more
when you're in a place like that.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
I think it Actually.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
There's a revelation in the story of Easter to me
that really connects with everything I'm sharing. It's this, you know,
it's the idea with Easter that even in the darkest
moments Good Friday to Easter Sunday, Jesus is in the tomb.
Everybody believes that hope is lost, and as a Christian,
(19:21):
we would believe that the greatest miracle is Easter Sunday,
that Jesus rises from the dead, that there's always the
possibility of new life, of new hope, of new things
to spring forth, even in what can appear to be
the most darkest and desperate situations. And I think it's
a reminder for us when we see the world today
(19:42):
and the challenges that globally, we can all recognize the
headlines in the news what's happening in the Middle East
and elsewhere, not to lose hope, not to lose faith,
and continue to play our part to try and bring
life and light into those places.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
You mentioned when you went to Taiwan that you are
knew Christian. So how did you come to this faith?
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
My person story as I grew up in a Catholic
household and you know, went to Mass on Sundays, my
parents were Catholic, went to Catholic school, and in my
early teenage, in my middle teenage years, you know, it
was a cultural experience for me. It wasn't that there
(20:28):
wasn't a richness in it or special things about it.
But for me it was just a cultural experience and
it wasn't like a real personal thing. At the age
of eighteen, I had a spiritual experience john like an
epiphany where God really just opened my eyes. And it
was a bit of my Road to Damascus moment of
(20:48):
Saul to Paul, where all of a sudden God revealed
the spiritual world that I'd had no interest in, I'd
had no awareness of, suddenly had become very real. And
so for me personally, I decided I was going to
search and find the truth wherever it was and whatever
it was. So I did a minor and religious studies.
I looked into all sorts of different religions and and
(21:10):
then my journey ultimately led back to faith and Jesus
and faith as a Christian. And that's a whole nother
podcast and story that journey, but it was but it
was an amazing one where you know that had come together.
And then and then for me, when I described the
Orphanage in Taiwan and my work with World Vision, my faith.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Has really become real through what I believe is my
calling and my work to.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Live that out in terms of that experience with those babies,
to try and do what I can what I've called
to do for others.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
But actually I've genuinely received.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
And be given so much more through all my experiences
and interactions with World Vision than than I've ever given.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I truly believe that.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
And obviously your faith is very important to you. It's
indicated by the choice of your last song. You've chosen
another song a brook Lickupwood Songs Brooke Phraser as I remember, yeah,
what have you chosen?
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Yeah, I mean her songs and her music just have
really resonated with me lately, and it's just one of
those ones where I find the lyrics the music.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
It's inspiring and uplifting, and especially I think.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
When you go through some of those dark and challenging
places and seasons and you do some of the travels
that I do, it's always good to get encourage and uplifted,
and I hope people will be enjoying it.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I've been talking with TJ. Grant from World Vision. I'm
sure that you could do a lot with and go
on the World Vision website and perhaps see how you
might be able to help what they're doing around the world.
TJ has been fantastic talking with you, and I wish
you all the best for the rest of Easter and
whatever the future holds for you.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Thank you so much, John, Blessings to you and everybody listening.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I'm John Cown. This is real life on news Talk.
There'd be back with you again next Sunday night.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
He's you hurry, saying if you've long his great con
(23:38):
uh God, he's already open.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yes, he's a
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Opread for more from us Talk, said b Listen live
on air or online, and keep our shows with you
wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk SEDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real life with John Cowen
on News Talk s EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Gooday, welcome to real life and Happy Easter. When we
look around to find interesting people to interview on real life,
it's amazing how many of the most fascinating and heroic
people are in the not for profit sector. I'll probably
never be billionaires, but changing the world, and my guest
tonight is in that category. He's the new leader of
World Vision and New Zealand. Welcome TJ grant Cura.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
John, it's great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Before I ask you to tell us about yourself. Tell
us a bit about World Vision. I know many New
Zealanders are familiar with it. We've still got the overdose
and body sugars from forty our famines and things in
a bloodstream. Tell us a bit more about World Vision life.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
It's a real privilege, John, to be leading World Vision
in New Zealand. As you mentioned, there's a rich history
of World Vision in terms of the World Vision forty
Hour Famine. Now we've changed it to the World Vision
forty hour challenge to children whose people who sponsor children
around the world and help to bring that long lasting
community development and transformational change to responding to disasters and
(01:38):
emergencies around the world. And I really believe our vision
at World Vision is twofold, our vision for every child
life and all its fullness. So we exist to help
vulnerable children around the world to experience the fullness of life,
the fullness of opportunities that we believe every child deserves.
And then the second part is our prayer for every
(01:59):
heart the will to make it so. So the belief
in the transformation of kiwis that when they engage, when
they partner with World Vision, when they are generous and
reach out beyond their lives, transformation goes both ways.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Right now, it's very appropriate at East that we're talking
to you from World Vision because World Vision is well
known as a Christian organization, But in what way is
a Christian when it actually comes down to the work
that you're doing in the refugee camps and communities. How
is it different from any of the other aid organizations
(02:35):
that might have a different motivation.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
So World Vision's faith foundations come from its founding over
seventy five years ago.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
And really you can think about it.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
When we think of a scriptural kind of foundation, I
think of Matthew twenty five, where Jesus says, whatever you
did for the least of these brothers or sisters of mine,
you did for me. So our calling to reach out
to the most vulnerable, to the most challenging and hardest
to reach places comes from what we believe is, you know,
Jesus's ministry and calling to reach out to those most
(03:10):
vulnerable brothers or sisters or people that was really at
the heart of his ministry when he was on Earth,
you know, over to millennium ago.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
And so then what does it look like for Worldvision.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
To live this out today in twenty twenty six and
how does that outwork?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And how's that different? World Vision?
Speaker 4 (03:29):
You know, we work with all people, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, culture.
I mean might be surprised to know that we're the
second largest I GEO in the Muslim world. So we're
working across the world in many different spaces, in Afghanistan
and Somalia, in many different countries. I think what makes
us distinct and the way we define it is our
(03:52):
long term community presence, So we walk together with communities.
We're there, we're present in the places where we work
for decades. Certainly, it's that faith based view. So we
take a holistic view of development, which looks at the
physical needs people have, but also the mental and the
(04:12):
spiritual needs people have. There's a real rich history in
thinking and literature around poverty.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
It's not just being a physical.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Challenge that people deal with, but there's a spiritual poverty
and brokenness that can happen over generations when people aren't
giving opportunities, when they've been marginalized. And so bringing change
in the mind and the heart and the spirit as
well as tangibly physically is a huge part of what
makes transformation possible.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
And then we partner with well, can I just interject
there and just say a more cynical person than myself
might say, Ah, by doing that, are you meaning actually
converting them to being Christian? Are you actually holding rice
in one hand and a Bible in the other and
seeking to evangelize for your work?
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Well, I'm happy to clarify John that debt is definitely
not the case. So we're not evangeli people, but we
are sharing through the love and the work that we do,
you know, the message of Jesus, you know, not through
words necessarily, but through the deeds and actions that we have.
But we work with all people and so there's no expectation,
(05:24):
there's no proselytization happening where you know, there's some expectation
that people are Christian or need to become Christian to
receive help or support from World Vision. As I say,
the fact that we're working in so many contexts around
the world, like the second largest i GEO in the
Muslim world, I think just speaks to the fact that
(05:46):
we're able to operate and work really effectively and powerfully
with local communities in many different contexts. And what I
was going to say is we definitely partner with churches
and Christians, but all people across all different backgrounds in
New Zealand Kiwis are supporters and actually what power and
make the work of World Vision possible? Right?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Do you sometimes find that difficult to hold Christians back?
You know, when you're working with local churches, they might
have their own agenda, they might have their own social
ideas that might be a little bit different from World Visions.
How do you actually control how you aid hits the
ground in these places if you're working through these other
(06:28):
agencies like churches.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah, so with I mean with churches, And I'll respond
a bit to say the control is probably the wrong word,
because we're really working in partnership. But I'll give you
a great example actually in partnering with churches and dealing
with different cultural beliefs and practices. So one of the
real powerful models that we've had as a program, an
(06:52):
approach called Channels of Hope, and Channels of Hope is
a model that we've worked with churches, actually with Muslim
leaders in many countries and other places where it's using scripture,
it's using theology to actually shift mindsets around how harmful
gender norms, around harmful gender practices in many countries where
(07:13):
women or children are whether they're physically abused or early
marriage or seen as second class citizens and not empowered.
And actually, you know, John, in a lot of these communities,
religious leaders or communities are some of the most powerful
voices and influences for a lot of these communities, and
(07:34):
so actually working with them to help them to have
a different perspective, to see development from a more holistic lens,
is actually a really powerful way to bring change along
with working directly with people, and so it's working together
with them to reshape and shift mindsets and beliefs, actually
(07:55):
sometimes using the power of scripture or other things that
they would understand and helping them to see those things
in a new way.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right now, coming back to yourself, your accent betrays the
American origin. So tell us a bit about your story.
You obviously started somewhere in America.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
You're close, John, Yeah, just to the north of America.
So America.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
I know that that's a sensitive thing sometimes, So whereabouts
in Canada.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
So grew up just outside of Toronto, John, and we're
you know, we're proud Kiwis now we've been here for
seven and a half years and got New Zealand citizenship
last year. But I'd love to tell you one story
actually from Canada to to maybe the World Vision. And
I think it just grounds for me a bit of
my story how I came into this work and provides
(08:50):
the faith connection as well.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
So if you'll bear with me, when my.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Wife and I first finished university and got married.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
In Canada, we went to the University of Guelf.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
We first got married and we moved to Taiwan and
we were teaching English.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
So we moved to Taiwan.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
We're teaching English, We're having a fun time, just adventuring,
hanging off student loans.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
A couple months in there, John, I had this feeling.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
This sense that something was missing in what we were doing,
that there was something more we were called to do,
but I couldn't tell you what it was. And my
wife had the same feeling. So that evening we prayed
on it and we just said, you know what, God,
if you want to open up a door here in
Taiwan for us to volunteer help out in some way,
we'll walk through it.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Well.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
The very next day, we were tutoring English at a
doctor's house and they had a lovely Filipino made.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
We had a great conversation and.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
She must have picked something up because she gave us
a name, two names, and a phone number, and she said,
you have to call these people. These people were tedembev Skiles,
these Christian missionaries that had opened up an orphanage in
Taiwan and had been there for like thirty years. So
we went to go volunteer at this orphanage. John every
Thursday evening for two years and these Thursday evenings at
(10:00):
the Orphanage, in hindsight, was transformative for me, and it
shifted from being a volunteering a good thing to this
epiphany one Thursday evening looking down at one of these
little babies and having the realization that these Thursday evenings
at the Orphanage had become the most important thing I
was doing, the most important part of my week. And
I thought, why what has happened on these Thursday evenings
(10:21):
to make this so transformative for me? These babies are
never going to remember my name, they weren't going to
know I was here.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I'm just changing their diapers? What's going on here?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
And what I thought at the time, John, as a
new Christian at the time, was that, you know, maybe
God and Jesus was sharing his love threw me to
these little ones. You know, I'm answering that call to
you know, when you're generous, when you care, when you
share love outside yourself, something powerful can happen. And you know,
maybe that has some small contribution to those babies lives
(10:49):
and their futures. And I'll tell you, John, and I
know we've got a minute or two before the break,
but that that's half the story, and what I've learned
two decades on in World Vision and working around the
world and now New Zealand is to see the other
half of the story of what was happening on those
Thursday evenings at the Orphanage.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Right, Okay, look, I want to follow up on that
because obviously you're getting a lot back from those babies,
not just but goos and ahs from the baby, but
you're getting something else in your heart, and I want
to talk about that after the break. If you're just
joined us, I'm talking to the new leader of New
Zealand World Vision, t J. Grant, and he's telling a
something of his story and about his faith and about
(11:31):
the work of World Vision. This is real life on
News Talks dB back with you.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
In just a minute, intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's
real life on News Talk s.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Ed b.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Cosipure, Welcome back to real life, Cown and I'm talking
with TJ. Grant from World Vision, who picked that song
a very obviously very Christian song. What are we listening to?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
There? So ten thousand reasons from my heart to find
from Matt Redmond John and I love that song and
one of the reasons I love. It is because in
different seasons of my life I found different reasons to
find God's blessings and finding God's blessings in different ways
and sometimes in an unexpected way. So it always speaks
(12:38):
to me, but it also speaks to me differently in
different seasons.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Right, Well, I'm interested that you find blessings when you
go to such awful places. It does well Vision work
in I can't remember how many countries, is it ninety, yeah,
almost one hundred, almost one hundred and twenty six of them,
I believe are active conflict zones, and you go to
the worst parts of those places, and you must see
(13:03):
some awful things. And I'm just wondering. You're saying, you
see God's blessings and experience, doesn't it get you down.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
It's a good question, John, And you know traveling with
World Vision working in many places for the past two decades.
So I was in South Sudan just last week, actually
right up on the border with Sudan, one of the
worst humanitarian crises in the world. And to your question,
one of the things I really wrestled with when I'm
(13:34):
up there is where is God in the midst of
situations like this? When there's thirty million people in need
of humanitarian assistance, and aid funding globally is shrinking and
being cut, and so World Vision is providing the only
basic health care and the only clean water. And say
one of these refugee transit centers for twenty five thousand people,
(13:56):
and you meet a mother who's been separated from her
husband and her kids, and she's surviving on the basic
essentials that World Vision and others can provide.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And she's heard that her husband and her.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Kids are have arrived somewhere else in Sosudan, but she's
got no way to get there. Or you talk to
a grandmother who's lost everything three times and literally goes
and tries to find firewood to make charcoal to sell,
and if she can sell it, then she can feed
her children, and if she can't, then they go hungry.
And so John, you do ask Where's God in this?
(14:29):
And the answer to me was interesting and maybe not surprising,
but it was a powerful reminder. And the answer I
go to a Maori proverb fakatoki, which I really really love,
which says, hey aha temea nui o te ao hey
tangata hey tangata hey Tangata. What is the most important
thing in the world and where is the answer?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
It is in the people. It is the people. It
is the people.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
And I remember John actually meeting a John, a young
man named John in Juba at the end of my
trip and at the age of thirteen, he had to
flee a village in Sudan from a conflict.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
He's living on the streets as an orphan.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
He somehow gets identified by a church pastor with some
other street kids and gets an education, which is wonderful.
But when the civil war breaks out, the pastor's killed
and he's back on the streets. He's living John, if
you can imagine this, in a cemetery in Juba. And
he told me the reason he was living in a
cemetery is because the only people there are dead people
(15:31):
and grieving people, and it's where he felt like he belonged.
And this is where you think, where is God in this?
In twenty fifteen and now there's he's the only person
in the cemetery. But then now because the conflict and
the war, imagine this, there's an estimated seven to ten
thousand people living in this cemetery in Juba, in South
Sudan and shacks and living on graves.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Real story.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
And John tells me in twenty fifteen, they had this,
they had to They decided nothing. They decided to worship
God and pray God, pray to God. And I said, look,
why would you do that there? That seems so counterintuitive.
It'd be the last thing I would think to do.
And he said, we had nowhere else to turn. It
was the only thing we could do, and we believed
(16:13):
we were still alive and there was a future for us.
Twenty seventeen, the Catholic Church there locally identifies these people
and gives them permission. Now today, can you imagine this
is Pastor John and he's got this little Tinshak church
in the middle of this cemetery in the middle of Juba,
(16:34):
with all these street people, homeless people, refugees living in shacks,
and World Visions connected with them recently last year and
doing some local outreach. And so I had a chance
to sit down with John and hear his story and
that he can have faith, that he can have hope
and bring light in one of the most darkest places
you can imagine.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
John, That's what continues.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
To inspire me and give me hope that there's resilience,
and there's faith, and there's people doing incredible things in
incredibly challenging circumstances, and we have the privilege to come
alongside and partner. John, I told you about Taiwan and
the babies and the Thursday evenings, And why was the
time with the babies in Taiwan so important? Why am
I so passionate about this work two decades on? And
(17:18):
I'll tell you why. John. It's not just because I
was bringing the love of Jesus to these babies on
the Thursday evenings.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
They were bringing the love of Jesus to me.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
I was experiencing Jesus with those little babies on the
Thursday evenings.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
They were enriching my life, They were enriching my story.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
They were uplifting me and growing my faith by stepping
out and having that experience.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Matthew twenty five says, whatever you did for the least
of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did for me.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
I believe Jesus is saying, like you can experience and
see me there now when you step out, when you
reach out, when you walk alongside, when you partner, when
you're generous beyond yourself and you partner with those like
pastor John, like the refugee mother, those people in the
really difficult circumstances. And I really believe is the privilege
(18:11):
of calling the mission that World Vision has had.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
So that's something that keeps you, you and your staff
guting it is.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
It does, and that's why John like taking on this
leadership role with World Vision New Zealand. I was intentional
that my first trip should be to.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
A place like so Sudan.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
We have to keep grounded in the reality of what's
happening in the world.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
What are the challenges people face, and how can we respond.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Okay, something of Easter in that story, I mean it's
eastera Now, it's obviously a significant thing for you. For
a lot of people, it just means chocolate and bunnies
and buns and a couple of days off. But for
a person of faith like yourself, it means something more
when you're in a place like that.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
I think it Actually.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
There's a revelation in the story of Easter to me
that really connects with everything I'm sharing. It's this, you know,
it's the idea with Easter that even in the darkest
moments Good Friday to Easter Sunday, Jesus is in the tomb.
Everybody believes that hope is lost, and as a Christian,
(19:21):
we would believe that the greatest miracle is Easter Sunday,
that Jesus rises from the dead, that there's always the
possibility of new life, of new hope, of new things
to spring forth, even in what can appear to be
the most darkest and desperate situations. And I think it's
a reminder for us when we see the world today
(19:42):
and the challenges that globally, we can all recognize the
headlines in the news what's happening in the Middle East
and elsewhere, not to lose hope, not to lose faith,
and continue to play our part to try and bring
life and light into those places.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
You mentioned when you went to Taiwan that you are
knew Christian. So how did you come to this faith?
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
My person story as I grew up in a Catholic
household and you know, went to Mass on Sundays, my
parents were Catholic, went to Catholic school, and in my
early teenage, in my middle teenage years, you know, it
was a cultural experience for me. It wasn't that there
(20:28):
wasn't a richness in it or special things about it.
But for me it was just a cultural experience and
it wasn't like a real personal thing. At the age
of eighteen, I had a spiritual experience john like an
epiphany where God really just opened my eyes. And it
was a bit of my Road to Damascus moment of
(20:48):
Saul to Paul, where all of a sudden God revealed
the spiritual world that I'd had no interest in, I'd
had no awareness of, suddenly had become very real. And
so for me personally, I decided I was going to
search and find the truth wherever it was and whatever
it was. So I did a minor and religious studies.
I looked into all sorts of different religions and and
(21:10):
then my journey ultimately led back to faith and Jesus
and faith as a Christian. And that's a whole nother
podcast and story that journey, but it was but it
was an amazing one where you know that had come together.
And then and then for me, when I described the
Orphanage in Taiwan and my work with World Vision, my faith.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Has really become real through what I believe is my
calling and my work to.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Live that out in terms of that experience with those babies,
to try and do what I can what I've called
to do for others.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
But actually I've genuinely received.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
And be given so much more through all my experiences
and interactions with World Vision than than I've ever given.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I truly believe that.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
And obviously your faith is very important to you. It's
indicated by the choice of your last song. You've chosen
another song a brook Lickupwood Songs Brooke Phraser as I remember, yeah,
what have you chosen?
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Yeah, I mean her songs and her music just have
really resonated with me lately, and it's just one of
those ones where I find the lyrics the music.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
It's inspiring and uplifting, and especially I think.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
When you go through some of those dark and challenging
places and seasons and you do some of the travels
that I do, it's always good to get encourage and uplifted,
and I hope people will be enjoying it.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I've been talking with TJ. Grant from World Vision. I'm
sure that you could do a lot with and go
on the World Vision website and perhaps see how you
might be able to help what they're doing around the world.
TJ has been fantastic talking with you, and I wish
you all the best for the rest of Easter and
whatever the future holds for you.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Thank you so much, John, Blessings to you and everybody listening.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I'm John Cown. This is real life on news Talk.
There'd be back with you again next Sunday night.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
He's you hurry, saying if you've long his great con
(23:38):
uh God, he's already open.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yes, he's a
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Opread for more from us Talk, said b Listen live
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