May 10, 2026 • 24 mins
For over 50 years, Tāme Iti (Ngāi Tūhoe) has been the face of Māori resistance and mana motuhake. From the front lines of the 1975 Land March and the founding of Ngā Tamatoa to the controversial Urewera raids, Tāme has spent his life challenging New Zealand to reckon with its colonial past.
Once branded a radical, he is now an Arts Foundation Laureate and a celebrated contemporary artist whose work turns activism into performance.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from news Talk, said B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's real life with John Cowan
on news Talk, said B.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Diday.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Welcome to real life. I'm John Cowen on radio. So
you can't see the face of the man I'm speaking
with tonight, but you would know it instantly. The artist, author,
longtime activist joins me tonight, John, even before you open
your mouth, your face is saying something to me, tell
(00:55):
me about your moch or your matter order.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, it's a.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
You know, we it was a process that I had
to go through myself, and it's about you know, maintaining
our who we are. And so there was a process
that I had to go excu myself, you know, turning
(01:24):
forty about you know, at the young Man, at the
young Boy.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I was around there.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
There was mukal Kohi, but I didn't see a lea
matola of lead, none at all.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
But so it goes through to Kapa Haka. We had
to chaw jaw some muco on faith and all of that.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
And yeah, yeah, so we it's a process that we
had this conversation with all the guys within our community
in the Luataky. So we we had a chat about
it with this radier. Well this is what the preacher
kind of look like to print out back in the gag.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So yeah, I right.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
It was unusual at the time, wasn't it. I mean,
it's more common now than it was when you got yours.
I think there was no one and to whoy that
could do that for you?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
No, no, no, no, it just happened to be a
guy across the road there. How do you do little?
And he was he was a tattoo artist and.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
He was he was olymp bis skate about it when
I did approach him about doing that, and he said, oh,
not me. And so I got in together with huegi
uh and a mother from from Waymna to uh have
a conversation with the with the carvers and so took
(02:44):
him about two three months to come to the conclusion,
Yeah I can do it.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
So okay, So that was it. And how long did
it take to get your whole face done?
Speaker 4 (02:57):
I think it's a computer? About about three four months?
So me the we went tissue with this guy from
So we started on the nose and it's and that
as it continued, and then next minute here we are.
And so I think I went around there with one month,
five cive of my face was done, and then the
(03:20):
lad there for better a month or two. And I
went over to Australia. People look at me, funny the way,
what the hell for?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
And so and so when you set up the two
way embassy in China at that time in the eighties, uh,
and there and there we were and then yeah, nineteen
nineteen nineties, Well I finally got it done and and
there we were and here we are.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
I mean back when you got your mocal done, probably
the only people tattooing their face were gang members getting
their dogs and fists and things like that put on
the face. So what sort of reaction did you get
from from people when you got it done? I bet
there's a range.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, A little bit about that too.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
I think that there was really parson past words. There
was a response to to the meme shouldn't mean and
I but not if it wasn't for the games.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And we want then that that was.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Really a respond to the gangs, and there wasn't really
where we want to go to reclaim it, reclaim we
claiming that being need it back to how it should
be and the marking on their face and no, no,
not this case mentality.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But yeah it's still out.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
You described getting your mocho as spiritual, and spirituality gets
mentioned often in this beautiful book that you've just written.
How do you describe your spirituality? What is your spirituality?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah? Yeah, it's the fun thing I go through myself.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
You know, I thought that spirituality Christianity is spirituality in
going to the UH, in the Christian faith. We've brought
up in the Christba team in church and also over
then Arena two Arena tourism in the Nio Lina to.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Faith and being brought up in the two faith.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
But there was other faith around there within our community,
the Anglican Church, several other other religion that was around
within our communities.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
So I think when I let home, going through some
whole new.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Experiences insidely understand that it took me back to to
to that the whole call of conversation about UH. We
were in Nod, you know, and I discovered that no,
you know, I'm not undermining the Christian faith and that
(06:00):
there are the other people.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
But but I'll get that going back to our original faith.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So your spirituality is some of the older spiritual ideas.
It's more like the ancient beliefs of your tip Ona.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Yeah, I think there is more connected to to our
environment and our relationship to to our mother Earth, to
defund the moon, the universe, and my my spirituality committed
to that, and I think that is important for us.
They're in jet in my view, in but to be
(06:38):
able to heck those connections in those underlailing, Yeah, you
know what that what that is for me and I
feel a lot more connected to that than given the
other persent paid that hour as well.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
As a trial.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I was interested to read you were standing in a
river to block jetboats coming up the river because they
were big a nuisance and you were sort of doing
this protest standing in the river, but you weren't worried
because you felt like you were connected to the river
in a spiritual sense.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Well, I think that's what it is. I think that's
the challenge for us. Yeah, for the challenge pus. They've
been in the dimuni see like you do out the people.
What does that means and what does that mean? How
we connected? Because the rivera it's my backyard, and he
was an organization we want to race there thirty forty
(07:32):
fifty thousand dollars race racing and chip boats to do
some weavings in their backyard and without any consultation with
it with the local people. So so I was not
happy with that, many of us being there, epy with
that and uh and then so we decided to take
some action in the case there. Yeah, and so yeah, yeah,
(07:57):
that was a really there was a really time situation there,
you know. And for me to be able to stand there,
you have to put yourself in there, in there, in
the zone and to be able to because I took
the man I talk came to my mind. I don't
think anybody is is ready to kill someone who standing
(08:19):
in the middle of the river. So I had to
take that rest. So I had to touch my own
my own my own way are at that period of time.
But it's just at the same time, it doesn't really matter,
like it's just so short. So I stuck to those
(08:39):
don't do that believe there. And so of course the
guy didn't wasn't ready to kill me because we're around
the oven and so either me or the willow tree.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So he then spect to the willow tree.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Okay, your book is called Mana, And how do you
describe mana to people who don't understand what that means?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, mana just to be.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
You know, needs to be to be fully in control
of yourself, who are, knowing who you are, knowing what
you're thinking is and to maintain at that linking you know,
in your practice, in your conversation where where you told
you and how you how we behave within the within
(09:29):
our foun in our community, and uh and who we
are in my two.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yes, and.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
And that didn't happen immediately and it's a it's didn't
matter over a period of time, and it took me
to come to their conclusion and have a total understanding manner.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
And you talk about it being tasted, how does it
get tested?
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, we we
we all go through it and have a go there,
you know, for example of I guess you know, like
when the principal made a statement that morning that he
will not allow us to pick allow us his people
moldy on this on consider his screw grounds.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
And so we thought, well, well let's check it out.
And we had a check about that.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
So let's check it out and see what's going to
happen and uh, you know, to see what's going to
happen to heat manner with the without hit the without
that call it all it's the right conversation.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah, So we we took it out there. We we
had to go with it, and we discovered that we
uh we paid. We've been wreaked my mind for or
but the continuation of the up the hill and uh
and then so you go through that exercise and and
uh and then you you know, we were we were
(10:54):
going to back hall, but I did it in the end,
you know, I just went in silence and I didn't
be the Monday to right another one hundred lines to
go around with the wheelbarrow, you know, and uh, something
kind of stuck in the back of mind. Many years
later it become part and partial on my my quarter
or my conversation.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
That's right, that prohibition on speaking mari because it became
the focus of an art exhibition fifty years later.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Yeah, it becomes become blackboard and then my first exhibition
at the art show at Yallowy uh by the guy
owned by a guy called Cherry Perkins. Cherry Perkins Instea
Gallery in gray Lynn. And yeah, so that was an
interesting period of time actually to bring that work, that
(11:47):
conversation I will not speak Maori and uh yeah, and
I've not tink been MyDD. I wasn't too sure how
far they undergo to It was a scary moment for
me to be having a solo exhibition.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
And it strikes me You've been in a lot of
scary places over the easiest. Yeah, you're listening to Real
life on Newstalk Set B. I'm talking with Tama. He's
been described as a criminal and an activist and a terrorist,
but nowadays he's more likely to hear him described as
a living treasure, as an artist, a laureate, an author,
(12:24):
and so I'm privileged to be speaking with him. And
we're talking a bit more about about his book Mana
and what Mana means to him, how it survives things
like being in prison. Coming up after the break, this
is real life news Talk said, be back with you
in a.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Minute, intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news Talk Set B.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I love, yes, I do.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Please wait for me.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
I'll be home.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Very soon.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Welcome back to real life. I'm John cown talking with
and he's picked mum by Prince Doue teka a great
song to hear on Mother's Day.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Well, you know, I love the old ladies. The koer
you into all the mothers and they the the soliplex
of Alvana and making sure you know, the old man
was an interesting guy, you know, he he can be
(13:42):
can be a bit of an after me now and then,
you know, but I actually took me along time too.
We can't understand where he was coming from. And I
actually have more respect for him in my later years
before he passed away.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And uh, but for the level of for the.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Old lady mothers there is they and they take the
one that they kept the household, kept the thing together.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And must respect to you to to your mothers.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Right now, you were you were a funger. You were
brought up by your people that you called your grandparents.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, well they called them my part my mama and
also it's my grand page. They and my great grandparents
actually is we we come from the same the same people,
the same family. But they also raised my father and
he also raised my father in the in the uh
during during the war as a kid. So both him
(14:41):
and I was raised by who they were and who
go did it and uh, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I'm really fortunate.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
I think we are really fortunate and rocky, uh that
we were raised in their environments, the understanding of the
they all and brought up in the kind of community. Uh.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
We really loved their period of time growing up.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
You know, they had the ups and downs and you
go to the school there looking cow looking after animals.
You know, we we had everything, I mean rich, we
went poor, you know, we were rich. We had everything
you can do want to you know. So we had
a shop down the road there, just just around the
(15:29):
corner there.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
We had a pactory.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
We had a shop there where we buy you know,
you beat them but dynamites and yeah, yeah, well the pharmacies.
They play with things up in the clear cleared the
bushes and the rocks and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So they had everything there. But you know, a coke.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
We had their gardens were their frit trees. We had
everything you can even think of.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
You know, I was looking at a map of and
it's only a tiny little place on the map, and
yet when I zoomed in on it, I counted seven Maria.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, I think we got more than that.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
There's another sex in the neighboring area and yeah, yeah,
so an amazing amount of multiculture that seeped into you.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Well it's a pretty strong community two ways, a two
way community community that's strict from Waymna Huama.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Wayo Ho.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
All around in the surrounding area. It's a big population,
you know what I mean, twice the size of Auckland area.
So there's a huge it's a huge place there that
we getting able to you know, you know, we had
our ups and down in the last two hundred years.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
You know, I'm a mate that were where we are
to date now.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Leaving that community and ending up in christ Church to
do your apprenticeship and work as a as a decorator,
that must have been hard. Leaving that family. You found
another family Namatoa. Did they feel like your brothers? Do
they feel like family?
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Well, it's a small group of us and we needed
a handful of us there, but we were kind of
trying to create a space during that period of time.
Except that we we consider every maldi's part of our tumatour.
So when there are how many members you have in
au Tumbatore, every Maori on the street and in the
bars and on the street there and crisis. Our members
(17:27):
are not commatour. We we wee put it by they
asked you there was anybou probably about five of us,
five or six of us the total members.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
You describe yourself as a quiet boy, growing up a
quiet lad and did they help you find your voice?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Yeah, I think we go through the first period of
as a as a teenager became talking. Was a teenager
when I left home, you know, and anything but milking cow.
But that that place opened up my another part of
my vein. I couldn't really go to sleep, you know,
and I was really excited by you know what, what's
(18:03):
happily right in front of my eyes?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
And so I discovered my boys. I spent a bit
of time.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
I played a uh about here lady down the road
there the twenty cents an hour to have a conversation,
just to teach me to like I'm talking to you.
And so she helped me to go through that and
also helped me to process what's coming through my brain
how I'm feeling that during their period of time. So
(18:31):
she was I can't remember and learned, but she was
a big She was a big help for me in
my in my in my grain up, well.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I think there was twenty cents well spent and yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Well I was.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Interested in that languish, you know, I was interested in
them in the English language. I learned more about the
English language from my from gold of the school, you know,
I learned the basic A, B, C, D C one
and one and through all of that, but understanding the
language itself in a way, and and that's how I
(19:07):
understand the So I've focused a lot around uh that
they in the lady I was talking to you, actually
her name was Missus Clark.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I just don't remember Jetnam. So Missus Clark was a
big help.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
And also a meeting of our uh Jack Locke and
Jack Locke in the the old members of the Communist
Party and he's what in his what Elsie Locke and
she was a writer and.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Peter, I'm so. They also introduced me to new thinking.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yes, this is an interesting time, wasn't it? Because you
started to realize that issues were bigger than Mauri, bigger
than New Zealand, and you got involved in protests against
Vietnam and apartheid, and you also went to China, and
I'm just wondering what you learned in China.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
The other in habble of them they you know, and
by the the the politics of socialism.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Mast In Monstertung was the one, through the New Zealand
Commonist Party to send the group of Maui over to China.
So I happened to be one of Theish people that
was invited here, tou, but that the republic, the public
of China, and I learned a loupon that in the
(20:29):
in the concept of how they went through colonization dictated
by other countries outside China man and so they managed
to get them back to regain their manna, the manna
of the Chinese people.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
And look, your life has been spent in struggle and
in protest and learning how to get into a space
and make people uncomfortable so they have to focus on
an issue. But it's interesting in your book that you
realize that your enemy, the thing you're battling against, is
not blonde hair and blue eyes. It's not against the race.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
That's great, that's gret And I think it was really
part of the parsi upbraim it. Yeah, because I's always
heard the word that at home or when around their village,
get you put up in our park here, watch out
for those bargia. You know they say they're kind of
stuck in the back of your brain. And it's a kid,
you know, who the hell waks out for the pliny
(21:28):
park here and it's kind of stuck in the back
of my mind.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
But in my late teens I discovered that known with it.
It's not true.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
And him does been understanding of the politics of their
period time. I had a clear, more bitter vision as
to what is occurring, what is happening in there in
the old or during the period of time for meed the.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Young man in the earlyly sixties and in the seventies.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Right, you're an older man now you're here is almost
as white as mine. I imagine over the five decades
or so that you've been in public life, you've changed
a bit.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Do you enjoy being a Yeah, I'm happy to be
a quarrel, happy to be your father, uncle, relations of
all or very well, well, my connection to to everybody,
and uh it is I think it's a goot pewter time,
quite challenging, quite challenging it at the same time and
(22:31):
and trying not to be uh stuck in the corner.
We're having a debate, an argument of money, ourselves, where
we're going in politically, you know, with with eving politics
hup in politics, you know, And I try to avoid
all the negativities around that, but really can't focus around
(22:54):
moving forward and what is the best way of moving forward.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So we're not totally conflicting with each other on a
daily basis.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I'm sure there's still a lot of changes that you'd
love to see made in our in our country, really relationships,
a place of maori in our in our world. And
but what are you what are you most happy to
have seen change in the years that you've been involved.
What are the things that you think?
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Okay, okay, I like the big changes weird Happily there's
a new generation is a new generation of my.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Generation media.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
I'm motivated by the the enthusiasm and the way our
our our tool and the next generation can come through
from Kulakopapa and uh and Kuhanga Dell, you know, and
that's that's a huge number of young people today.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
It's been it's been great talking to you. You can
be proud of so much that you've helped make different
in our country. If you wanted to hear, get along
to the Auckland Writers Festival and he will be featured there.
We'll go out on another song that you've picked, which
one is? This is it? And I believe that's Stan
(24:13):
Walker and I think you're involved in the in the
studio there, yes, and making it. This has been real life.
I'm John Cown. I've been talking with to get his
book called Mana. It's a great read and I'll look
forward to being back with you again next Sunday night
and Happy Mother's Day.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from news Talk, said B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's real life with John Cowan
on news Talk, said B.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Diday.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Welcome to real life. I'm John Cowen on radio. So
you can't see the face of the man I'm speaking
with tonight, but you would know it instantly. The artist, author,
longtime activist joins me tonight, John, even before you open
your mouth, your face is saying something to me, tell
(00:55):
me about your moch or your matter order.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, it's a.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
You know, we it was a process that I had
to go through myself, and it's about you know, maintaining
our who we are. And so there was a process
that I had to go excu myself, you know, turning
(01:24):
forty about you know, at the young Man, at the
young Boy.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I was around there.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
There was mukal Kohi, but I didn't see a lea
matola of lead, none at all.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
But so it goes through to Kapa Haka. We had
to chaw jaw some muco on faith and all of that.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
And yeah, yeah, so we it's a process that we
had this conversation with all the guys within our community
in the Luataky. So we we had a chat about
it with this radier. Well this is what the preacher
kind of look like to print out back in the gag.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So yeah, I right.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
It was unusual at the time, wasn't it. I mean,
it's more common now than it was when you got yours.
I think there was no one and to whoy that
could do that for you?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
No, no, no, no, it just happened to be a
guy across the road there. How do you do little?
And he was he was a tattoo artist and.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
He was he was olymp bis skate about it when
I did approach him about doing that, and he said, oh,
not me. And so I got in together with huegi
uh and a mother from from Waymna to uh have
a conversation with the with the carvers and so took
(02:44):
him about two three months to come to the conclusion,
Yeah I can do it.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
So okay, So that was it. And how long did
it take to get your whole face done?
Speaker 4 (02:57):
I think it's a computer? About about three four months?
So me the we went tissue with this guy from
So we started on the nose and it's and that
as it continued, and then next minute here we are.
And so I think I went around there with one month,
five cive of my face was done, and then the
(03:20):
lad there for better a month or two. And I
went over to Australia. People look at me, funny the way,
what the hell for?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
And so and so when you set up the two
way embassy in China at that time in the eighties, uh,
and there and there we were and then yeah, nineteen
nineteen nineties, Well I finally got it done and and
there we were and here we are.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
I mean back when you got your mocal done, probably
the only people tattooing their face were gang members getting
their dogs and fists and things like that put on
the face. So what sort of reaction did you get
from from people when you got it done? I bet
there's a range.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, A little bit about that too.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
I think that there was really parson past words. There
was a response to to the meme shouldn't mean and
I but not if it wasn't for the games.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
And we want then that that was.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Really a respond to the gangs, and there wasn't really
where we want to go to reclaim it, reclaim we
claiming that being need it back to how it should
be and the marking on their face and no, no,
not this case mentality.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But yeah it's still out.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
You described getting your mocho as spiritual, and spirituality gets
mentioned often in this beautiful book that you've just written.
How do you describe your spirituality? What is your spirituality?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah? Yeah, it's the fun thing I go through myself.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
You know, I thought that spirituality Christianity is spirituality in
going to the UH, in the Christian faith. We've brought
up in the Christba team in church and also over
then Arena two Arena tourism in the Nio Lina to.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Faith and being brought up in the two faith.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
But there was other faith around there within our community,
the Anglican Church, several other other religion that was around
within our communities.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
So I think when I let home, going through some
whole new.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Experiences insidely understand that it took me back to to
to that the whole call of conversation about UH. We
were in Nod, you know, and I discovered that no,
you know, I'm not undermining the Christian faith and that
(06:00):
there are the other people.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
But but I'll get that going back to our original faith.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So your spirituality is some of the older spiritual ideas.
It's more like the ancient beliefs of your tip Ona.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Yeah, I think there is more connected to to our
environment and our relationship to to our mother Earth, to
defund the moon, the universe, and my my spirituality committed
to that, and I think that is important for us.
They're in jet in my view, in but to be
(06:38):
able to heck those connections in those underlailing, Yeah, you
know what that what that is for me and I
feel a lot more connected to that than given the
other persent paid that hour as well.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
As a trial.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I was interested to read you were standing in a
river to block jetboats coming up the river because they
were big a nuisance and you were sort of doing
this protest standing in the river, but you weren't worried
because you felt like you were connected to the river
in a spiritual sense.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Well, I think that's what it is. I think that's
the challenge for us. Yeah, for the challenge pus. They've
been in the dimuni see like you do out the people.
What does that means and what does that mean? How
we connected? Because the rivera it's my backyard, and he
was an organization we want to race there thirty forty
(07:32):
fifty thousand dollars race racing and chip boats to do
some weavings in their backyard and without any consultation with
it with the local people. So so I was not
happy with that, many of us being there, epy with
that and uh and then so we decided to take
some action in the case there. Yeah, and so yeah, yeah,
(07:57):
that was a really there was a really time situation there,
you know. And for me to be able to stand there,
you have to put yourself in there, in there, in
the zone and to be able to because I took
the man I talk came to my mind. I don't
think anybody is is ready to kill someone who standing
(08:19):
in the middle of the river. So I had to
take that rest. So I had to touch my own
my own my own way are at that period of time.
But it's just at the same time, it doesn't really matter,
like it's just so short. So I stuck to those
(08:39):
don't do that believe there. And so of course the
guy didn't wasn't ready to kill me because we're around
the oven and so either me or the willow tree.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So he then spect to the willow tree.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Okay, your book is called Mana, And how do you
describe mana to people who don't understand what that means?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, mana just to be.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
You know, needs to be to be fully in control
of yourself, who are, knowing who you are, knowing what
you're thinking is and to maintain at that linking you know,
in your practice, in your conversation where where you told
you and how you how we behave within the within
(09:29):
our foun in our community, and uh and who we
are in my two.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yes, and.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
And that didn't happen immediately and it's a it's didn't
matter over a period of time, and it took me
to come to their conclusion and have a total understanding manner.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
And you talk about it being tasted, how does it
get tested?
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, we we
we all go through it and have a go there,
you know, for example of I guess you know, like
when the principal made a statement that morning that he
will not allow us to pick allow us his people
moldy on this on consider his screw grounds.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
And so we thought, well, well let's check it out.
And we had a check about that.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
So let's check it out and see what's going to
happen and uh, you know, to see what's going to
happen to heat manner with the without hit the without
that call it all it's the right conversation.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah, So we we took it out there. We we
had to go with it, and we discovered that we
uh we paid. We've been wreaked my mind for or
but the continuation of the up the hill and uh
and then so you go through that exercise and and
uh and then you you know, we were we were
(10:54):
going to back hall, but I did it in the end,
you know, I just went in silence and I didn't
be the Monday to right another one hundred lines to
go around with the wheelbarrow, you know, and uh, something
kind of stuck in the back of mind. Many years
later it become part and partial on my my quarter
or my conversation.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
That's right, that prohibition on speaking mari because it became
the focus of an art exhibition fifty years later.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Yeah, it becomes become blackboard and then my first exhibition
at the art show at Yallowy uh by the guy
owned by a guy called Cherry Perkins. Cherry Perkins Instea
Gallery in gray Lynn. And yeah, so that was an
interesting period of time actually to bring that work, that
(11:47):
conversation I will not speak Maori and uh yeah, and
I've not tink been MyDD. I wasn't too sure how
far they undergo to It was a scary moment for
me to be having a solo exhibition.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
And it strikes me You've been in a lot of
scary places over the easiest. Yeah, you're listening to Real
life on Newstalk Set B. I'm talking with Tama. He's
been described as a criminal and an activist and a terrorist,
but nowadays he's more likely to hear him described as
a living treasure, as an artist, a laureate, an author,
(12:24):
and so I'm privileged to be speaking with him. And
we're talking a bit more about about his book Mana
and what Mana means to him, how it survives things
like being in prison. Coming up after the break, this
is real life news Talk said, be back with you
in a.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Minute, intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news Talk Set B.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I love, yes, I do.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Please wait for me.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
I'll be home.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Very soon.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Welcome back to real life. I'm John cown talking with
and he's picked mum by Prince Doue teka a great
song to hear on Mother's Day.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Well, you know, I love the old ladies. The koer
you into all the mothers and they the the soliplex
of Alvana and making sure you know, the old man
was an interesting guy, you know, he he can be
(13:42):
can be a bit of an after me now and then,
you know, but I actually took me along time too.
We can't understand where he was coming from. And I
actually have more respect for him in my later years
before he passed away.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And uh, but for the level of for the.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Old lady mothers there is they and they take the
one that they kept the household, kept the thing together.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And must respect to you to to your mothers.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Right now, you were you were a funger. You were
brought up by your people that you called your grandparents.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, well they called them my part my mama and
also it's my grand page. They and my great grandparents
actually is we we come from the same the same people,
the same family. But they also raised my father and
he also raised my father in the in the uh
during during the war as a kid. So both him
(14:41):
and I was raised by who they were and who
go did it and uh, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I'm really fortunate.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
I think we are really fortunate and rocky, uh that
we were raised in their environments, the understanding of the
they all and brought up in the kind of community. Uh.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
We really loved their period of time growing up.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
You know, they had the ups and downs and you
go to the school there looking cow looking after animals.
You know, we we had everything, I mean rich, we
went poor, you know, we were rich. We had everything
you can do want to you know. So we had
a shop down the road there, just just around the
(15:29):
corner there.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
We had a pactory.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
We had a shop there where we buy you know,
you beat them but dynamites and yeah, yeah, well the pharmacies.
They play with things up in the clear cleared the
bushes and the rocks and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So they had everything there. But you know, a coke.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
We had their gardens were their frit trees. We had
everything you can even think of.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
You know, I was looking at a map of and
it's only a tiny little place on the map, and
yet when I zoomed in on it, I counted seven Maria.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, I think we got more than that.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
There's another sex in the neighboring area and yeah, yeah,
so an amazing amount of multiculture that seeped into you.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Well it's a pretty strong community two ways, a two
way community community that's strict from Waymna Huama.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Wayo Ho.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
All around in the surrounding area. It's a big population,
you know what I mean, twice the size of Auckland area.
So there's a huge it's a huge place there that
we getting able to you know, you know, we had
our ups and down in the last two hundred years.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
You know, I'm a mate that were where we are
to date now.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Leaving that community and ending up in christ Church to
do your apprenticeship and work as a as a decorator,
that must have been hard. Leaving that family. You found
another family Namatoa. Did they feel like your brothers? Do
they feel like family?
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Well, it's a small group of us and we needed
a handful of us there, but we were kind of
trying to create a space during that period of time.
Except that we we consider every maldi's part of our tumatour.
So when there are how many members you have in
au Tumbatore, every Maori on the street and in the
bars and on the street there and crisis. Our members
(17:27):
are not commatour. We we wee put it by they
asked you there was anybou probably about five of us,
five or six of us the total members.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
You describe yourself as a quiet boy, growing up a
quiet lad and did they help you find your voice?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Yeah, I think we go through the first period of
as a as a teenager became talking. Was a teenager
when I left home, you know, and anything but milking cow.
But that that place opened up my another part of
my vein. I couldn't really go to sleep, you know,
and I was really excited by you know what, what's
(18:03):
happily right in front of my eyes?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
And so I discovered my boys. I spent a bit
of time.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
I played a uh about here lady down the road
there the twenty cents an hour to have a conversation,
just to teach me to like I'm talking to you.
And so she helped me to go through that and
also helped me to process what's coming through my brain
how I'm feeling that during their period of time. So
(18:31):
she was I can't remember and learned, but she was
a big She was a big help for me in
my in my in my grain up, well.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I think there was twenty cents well spent and yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Well I was.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Interested in that languish, you know, I was interested in
them in the English language. I learned more about the
English language from my from gold of the school, you know,
I learned the basic A, B, C, D C one
and one and through all of that, but understanding the
language itself in a way, and and that's how I
(19:07):
understand the So I've focused a lot around uh that
they in the lady I was talking to you, actually
her name was Missus Clark.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I just don't remember Jetnam. So Missus Clark was a
big help.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
And also a meeting of our uh Jack Locke and
Jack Locke in the the old members of the Communist
Party and he's what in his what Elsie Locke and
she was a writer and.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Peter, I'm so. They also introduced me to new thinking.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yes, this is an interesting time, wasn't it? Because you
started to realize that issues were bigger than Mauri, bigger
than New Zealand, and you got involved in protests against
Vietnam and apartheid, and you also went to China, and
I'm just wondering what you learned in China.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
The other in habble of them they you know, and
by the the the politics of socialism.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Mast In Monstertung was the one, through the New Zealand
Commonist Party to send the group of Maui over to China.
So I happened to be one of Theish people that
was invited here, tou, but that the republic, the public
of China, and I learned a loupon that in the
(20:29):
in the concept of how they went through colonization dictated
by other countries outside China man and so they managed
to get them back to regain their manna, the manna
of the Chinese people.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
And look, your life has been spent in struggle and
in protest and learning how to get into a space
and make people uncomfortable so they have to focus on
an issue. But it's interesting in your book that you
realize that your enemy, the thing you're battling against, is
not blonde hair and blue eyes. It's not against the race.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
That's great, that's gret And I think it was really
part of the parsi upbraim it. Yeah, because I's always
heard the word that at home or when around their village,
get you put up in our park here, watch out
for those bargia. You know they say they're kind of
stuck in the back of your brain. And it's a kid,
you know, who the hell waks out for the pliny
(21:28):
park here and it's kind of stuck in the back
of my mind.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
But in my late teens I discovered that known with it.
It's not true.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
And him does been understanding of the politics of their
period time. I had a clear, more bitter vision as
to what is occurring, what is happening in there in
the old or during the period of time for meed the.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Young man in the earlyly sixties and in the seventies.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Right, you're an older man now you're here is almost
as white as mine. I imagine over the five decades
or so that you've been in public life, you've changed
a bit.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Do you enjoy being a Yeah, I'm happy to be
a quarrel, happy to be your father, uncle, relations of
all or very well, well, my connection to to everybody,
and uh it is I think it's a goot pewter time,
quite challenging, quite challenging it at the same time and
(22:31):
and trying not to be uh stuck in the corner.
We're having a debate, an argument of money, ourselves, where
we're going in politically, you know, with with eving politics
hup in politics, you know, And I try to avoid
all the negativities around that, but really can't focus around
(22:54):
moving forward and what is the best way of moving forward.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So we're not totally conflicting with each other on a
daily basis.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I'm sure there's still a lot of changes that you'd
love to see made in our in our country, really relationships,
a place of maori in our in our world. And
but what are you what are you most happy to
have seen change in the years that you've been involved.
What are the things that you think?
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Okay, okay, I like the big changes weird Happily there's
a new generation is a new generation of my.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Generation media.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
I'm motivated by the the enthusiasm and the way our
our our tool and the next generation can come through
from Kulakopapa and uh and Kuhanga Dell, you know, and
that's that's a huge number of young people today.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
It's been it's been great talking to you. You can
be proud of so much that you've helped make different
in our country. If you wanted to hear, get along
to the Auckland Writers Festival and he will be featured there.
We'll go out on another song that you've picked, which
one is? This is it? And I believe that's Stan
(24:13):
Walker and I think you're involved in the in the
studio there, yes, and making it. This has been real life.
I'm John Cown. I've been talking with to get his
book called Mana. It's a great read and I'll look
forward to being back with you again next Sunday night
and Happy Mother's Day.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.
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