April 19, 2026 • 40 mins
We often think of trusts as a way to protect your assets, especially if you work in certain fields - but a surprising number of regular families use them for a range of reasons.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Those time.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
All those time?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Will you know?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Then I send my watch back to did it on
those time? Welcome back to the Weekend Collective. Well we're
(00:40):
not on Tulsa time. We're on Awkland time. But I'm
not sure if there's a There probably is a difference,
but I now I've started to say it. I sort
of feel I should know the answer that one, which
I'm not going to give you anyway, Welcome back to
the show, and this is Smart Money. We want your
calls on one hundred and eighty, ten and eighty and
you can text if you like on nine two, nine
to two, And for this hour, it's welcome to Smart Money.
(01:02):
Now I give it. I sort of mentioned it last
hour with our new guest, Rob Knight from The Breakers,
but this hour we have always had a busy time
with my next guest I'm to introduce. So if you've
got any questions around trusts and the protection of your assets,
then you should jump on the blow as sooner rather
(01:23):
than later, because as I've mentioned, often with this hour,
in particular with my guest, we end up running out
of time and can't get to everyone. So eight one
hundred and eighty ten eighty, there's a couple of things
that just to start get started off before I introduce her. Look,
we often think of trusts as a way to protect
our assets, especially if you work in certain fields. But
(01:45):
there's a you know, a surprising number of families use
them for just you know, we're going to stick it
all in a trust. Just I don't know why. And
I don't mean I don't know why because I disagree.
It's just like I was trying to remember the actual
reasons that anyone might just set up a trust. But
there's a story of a woman who had a child
from a previous relationship she'd put just to home before
(02:05):
getting remarried, so she started a trust to particularly firstborn.
Then there are people who have had their first relationship,
they've had their first family. They want to be able
to move into other relationships because the former relationship's breaken down,
they set up a trust. I mean, those are obvious ones,
I guess, But what are the ways that ordinary kiwis
use trusts? And are there other ways to meet those
(02:26):
needs without having to go through the process setting up
a trust? I mean, I guess that would be pre
meritablement agreements and all those sorts of things. Anyway, the
other question I want to dig into, and it's just
a mischievous one, is if you were wanting to just
hide your assets, can you actually hide your assets? Can
you do it legally and you know? Or is it
(02:47):
you have to do something illegally. I'm not sure why
anyone would hide their assets. Possibly just in case you
end up in a relationship and you don't want that
person to ever know that you owned I don't know,
a big building somewhere or pots of gold. Anyway to
discuss that with me is she is managing director for
New Zealand Family Trust Services and it's Janet's coahalo Janet.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
How are you?
Speaker 5 (03:12):
Hello?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Tim?
Speaker 5 (03:12):
And hello listeners? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Are you well?
Speaker 5 (03:15):
I'm very well? Any better and I would be twins?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Wow? Well you're absolutely fizzing. Hey, now look, can you
do people ever want to hide assets? I just I
was just thinking of it a mischievous question. I thought,
hang on a minute. They probably people who would love
people not to know that they've got this asset.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Probably been planted to you? Why from movies and books?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Oh yeah, probably watching Scar face all of that, Yes,
but I mean, you know, not people don't. I mean
people often think they want to hide money. I guess
in hiding income is of course that's not good because
you've got to pay tax on it.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
But it would actually be really good to talk to
divorce laws because I have been told that financial infidelity
is much stronger, much higher. Got a pensity of financial
infidelity of trying to hide assets in cash and so
light than them physical infidelity in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
What is what's? Ah, God, that's interesting? What is what
is financial infidelity?
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Because if financial infidelity it's a degree, isn't it? So
for example, you, yes, it's not very honest if you're
in a marriage and you're meant to be sharing everything,
and everything's meant to be fifty to fifty in open
and honest. But for an example of financial infidelity, a
true example that I came across was I worked for
(04:45):
a bank many many years ago, had their legal division,
and of course when somebody died, that was an estate,
and we were then put in charge of that account,
and we would deal with the lawyers and the beneficiaries
and this gentleman for years and years, for thirty odd
years he had put a percentage of his salary every
(05:07):
time he got paid into a bank account, a secret
in his name, a secret bank account in his name,
and of course, when he died, that money should then
go to his next of kin as per his will instructions,
which was his wife. And so we went to we
advise the lawyer, and we went to pay out, and
(05:29):
the wife demanded a meeting with me, and she said,
my husband wouldn't have done that. You've got that money
does not belong to me. You've got the wrong person
Like me.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I would have just been like it handed over. But
she was shocked about it.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
She just thought, this can't be right, because of course
it wasn't just the money. It's the fact that all
of these years he's been putting that away and not
to her knowledge. And the way I put it to
her is, well, I'm sure your husband would have told
you about it. Maybe this was a nice surprise for retirement.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
About well, do we know any reason? Why did you
know why he put the money away?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Was it just all I mean, because he was deceased.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
How did you even know that it existed? As a
as an executor of someone's estate, how did you know
that that how does that bank account come to your
attention of fees? I mean it doesn't seem immediately obvious.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
Yes, and that that is actually a really interesting question
because we used to have years and years ago, we
used to have birth desks and marriages, of course notified
in the paper and often in law officers. It would
be somebody's job to go through and work out if
anybody had died that was their client or We don't
have that anymore.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
So we don't have what birth deskin marriages, Well we.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Don't, well we do, but we don't have little run
on ads in the back of newspapers. That don't really
do that so much anymore. And certainly law clerks don't
sit in officers each day and go through the newspaper
to work that out.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
A fun job, that is.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
So what we what tends to happen is you will
a lawyer will become involved and they will shoot through
a precedent letter to all of the banks saying, would
my client be holding any bank accounts in this name?
Here's a copy of the desertificate, and if you are
indeed holding a bank account in that person's name, then
you'll write back to the lawyer and say yes, yes,
I'm here with the National Bank or the A and
(07:22):
Z Bank or whatever. And this gentleman does indeed hold
a bank account.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
So if you if you're acting for someone's you know
someone's died, do you do you does an executive right
to all the banks that around the place.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Game they may only just write to the banks that
they're aware of, or.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
If they're not, do they write to by the way,
if you've got any for instance, I mean the reason
I mentioned, I've got a rabo and it's not secret
from my wife knows that I've got a rabo, but
it's empty. And every now and again, if I was
thinking we're going to save up for a holiday, I
might sort of start putting a bit of money into it.
But she wouldn't know the number of it.
Speaker 5 (07:59):
And that's okay. She doesn't need to know that.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Then she might she might forget, and then you might.
So if mind you, there's not much money in it,
so like a dollar thirty or something, you know.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
Well, In my book Trust one two three, it actually
suggests that people write write a letter or to the
survivors and say to them and here the I've got
a who I'm holding bank accounts at these banks. You
should get the executor to have a look at that,
and then once we get a copy of the death
(08:35):
certificate and probraate, then we're good to go.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Passwords and all that sort of stuff. What happens these days? Modern?
In modern times? What happens with you know, obviously I
can access everyone access. Is there bank accounts, whether password
or some sort of password or security structure that you've
got a process you follow through. It used to be
with Rabo you had to get this little device where
you'd have a password and then you'd punch one number
and it'd punch another back. Then you'd punch it in
(09:00):
and then before it was about it took a while.
But is it from an executive's point of view? Can
you simply write to the bank and say, well, we
don't have you know, we don't have the passwords or anything,
but we're the executives. Here's the death certificate, hand it over.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
We don't need the passwords. There's a lot we're sitting
in banks. We don't need that. We can deal with
all of that. What we need, okay, is to see
legal authority that well, well, first off, legal evidence that
the person has ceased, and secondly, legal authority that whoever
is asking for the information and the legal right to it.
So usually that's a grant of probate.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
For example, I actually, I would be honest, I've been
curious about that because I was thinking whether I mean,
I'm still I like to think of myself as fairly young,
but you can you know, I'm biking around and you
never know you're going to get hit by a bus
or something. And I was thinking, I actually have gone
through this process in the last week or two, just
thinking if something happened to me, Howard Andrino to this
(09:57):
is where, this is where the bodies are buried.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
I've left, I've left instructions and it's actually on my
computer if I am dad read but ah really, And
then it goes through and says, go to these banks,
go to this financial.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Advisor, do this, do that, and how many people have that?
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Well? I try to get all of my clients to
do it, because what it does is it gives the
executor a bit of a heads up. I'm not saying
that they that they absolutely have to have it, but
it certainly does help because otherwise they've got to try
and find information you and you just don't know. My
mother was a prime example. She had I thought that
I knew of all the bank accounts, but I did,
(10:38):
you know. I followed suits and I sent a stylized
letter around to all of the banks, and United Building
Society came back to me and said, yes, we are
are indeed holding ten thousand dollars here for your mother.
I had no idea that she'd put that money in there,
and neither did she. She had completely forgotten. So that
was a nice, a nice bonus, you know that helped.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yes, Actually, i'd love to know if you if you're listening,
have you do you think I mean, some people don't
even have a will, and that's definitely not thinking it.
I don't even know where our wills are. This is
how far out of data I am. But my wife
will know where they are. But if I mean, something
happened to her, I'd be like, I'd probably have to
ransack the house. But the extra step of having the letter,
(11:22):
it does seem that's reasonably common sense. Yeah, it give
us a call on that ten eighty. It's a useful
bit of advice there. What about, by the way, that
bank account that was sort of secret. How much money
was in It wasn't quite a whack. It was a lot.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
That gentleman, whilst he wasn't on a very large wage,
he had every week that he had got paid put
aside percentage of his salary, the same percentage, and that
mounts up over thirty or thirty years.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
What was it one hundred thousand or half a million
or a lot it was. I'm not going to that, okay,
just in case we know who the client is.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
The money whilst being must being welcome. I would have
thought to the wife and the family it was painful
for her to think that her husband had committed infidelity
for all of those years. From the financial perspective, I.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Can actually give an innocent explanation that he might have
been simply saving for a retirement, and when he retired,
he was going to be like, by the way, I've
got this extra account that and he just never told
her about it. It could have been entirely innocent.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
I believe that it would have been. Then I said
that to her, I said, look, he wasn't trying to
feather his nest or have an exit.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
I mean, if we were withdrawals and they went into
the name of a secret lover. That would be a
little different.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
And in fact, there were never in all of that record.
There was never one would draw in all of those years.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I want to I'm going to dig into this. I
want to know how much it is. But anyway, he.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Must have he must have said somewhere along the line
to his wife, well this is what I earn.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Hmm. I mean, I don't know. It depends, but because
if the bills are paid, he might they might he
might have said this is what I am. But I mean,
how many I be honest, I think my wife has
a separate retirement sort of thing. I don't know how
much she puts into that, because I just sort of
trust that, you know, And I think that's the thing.
We both trust each other. And if I carke it,
(13:16):
then she knows that whatever bank accounts.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Have got, you know, And that's what that's what was upsetting,
I think to this lady. And if it's a joint account,
of course, then the money automatically reverts to the survivor.
But that wasn't the case.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And that's fascinating, isn't it. Go ten eighty that I've
got a little bit off the topic by the way
with Janets occur about squirreling. Well, no, not really. I
was talking about how do you hide how can you
hide money or assets or whatever, and can you do
it legally? But are there ways you can do it?
And I know it's not Janet's stock in trade, but
(13:50):
I just sort of thought she will know of people
who have tried to do X ones and I thought
there'd be a fun way to get off the topic
of Lada.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
These days, I mean, you've got aml Anti Money Laundering
Act where you've got to jump through a lot of
hoops to even open bank accounts. We now have electronic
trials on everything. Yeah, it's much harder these is.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
It harder just to open a bank account without anyone
else knowing? So, I mean the bank would know, but
could if you know, if you're not married or something,
you've just got a partner and you just want to
have some things and you don't want to tell them
about it, can you do it secretly?
Speaker 5 (14:26):
You could actually go into a bank and open a
bank account without telling anybody.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
I'm sure, So there's one way of doing it.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
You know you would have is missus tim listening? You
would you would you know you would have to provide
ID you would have to and still fill out their films,
but you could act as a physical act that you
could achieve I would imagine, so okay.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
By the way, we're also talking about trusts as well.
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. Janet Soco, managing director
for New Zealand Family Trust Services.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Is with us.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
We'll be back in just a moment. It's twenty one
past five. Yes, and welcome back. We're with Janet Zakara
talking trusts and wills and actually, you know, should you
leave instructions for your loved ones just in case you know,
nobody wants to die, do they nobody wants to get
hit by a bus or you never know what's going
to happen though, but should you have you know, instructions?
And have you got it? Larry's texted just saying and
(15:21):
where has it? Put your will? In an envelope marked
will place it in your top bedside draw. It'll get
found pretty quickly, I guess, so it might be the
last place there. Look of course, Ben, Hello.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
You get it.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
We're going through this at the moment. So we were
a watered guardianship by a v K in Australia or
my father in October last year. He passed away about
four weeks ago, and it's been an absolute nightmare. He
was a dual citizen. You own property here and over there.
He passed away over there, and it's just it's been
(15:57):
a nightmare of the banks over here won't accept the
paperwork that we got from the court in Australia. We're
having trouble, you know, offloading the property because they there
simply one accept you need the paperwork from over there,
and they need a funeral plan that was prepaid over here.
(16:18):
But now we're finding we're chucked as funeral and the
credit card and now the funeral plan we expected to
pay reimburse us won't reimburse us because the funeral was
held in Australia are not here.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
So that's an absolute oh my goodness.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
Yeah, well I absolutely hear that pain, and I have
seen that in several instances. It's quite important when you
have clients that reside overseas that the wills and the instructions,
insurance policies, all of those sorts of things are well
(16:55):
and surely tailored to clients living overseas as well as
living here. I mean, they may well have dual residency.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Even how's it go? How far through the process are
you being?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Well, then just started like he didn't leave a will,
and so you had three sons, myself and two brothers,
and so now it's up to us to just do
view relink out forgive. Your trouble is we've got a
solicitor in Australia who we just had to go get
because we just can't do it ourselves. And the trouble
is they can't request stuff from those bank accounts over
(17:31):
here because they are over there, and it's just it's
an epilote nine min. It's going to cost a heck
of a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
That sounds strange that a New Zealand bank won't take
a letter from an Australian solicitor, Is it weird? Janet?
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Well, look, I had trouble with with a bank and
myself in New Zealand where the Australian bank account that
was also in my name with the same bank, I
might add, had got closed and the New Zealand bank
was requiring certain things and to this level I needed
something to be certified. So I had a arted accountants
(18:05):
certified here in New Zealand, which is pretty much acceptable
to both banks and lawyers and accountants, but this particular
bank didn't want a chartered accountant to certify. They want
a certified practitioner.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
To what's the certified practitioner? What's the difference?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Pretty much the same thing as a chartered accountant in Australia,
the equivalent. And it was just difficult. It was just difficult.
So that's why I say, I feel your pain.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
How's it? So, how's the How long do you think
the process is going to take? Ben?
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Well, we're not sure. Like we know, he's got bank
accounts here, he's got property here. We haven't been able
to touch any of it yet because they just simply
won't accept the paperwork issued by the Australian Court. And
we've only just managed to get into the accounts in
Australia because we had access to them through the power
of attorney that was granted by the court last year,
(19:01):
but that ceased the moment he died. So the moment
he died, we no longer had extras.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
To cease to operate.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah, so it's been a real tough one because now
now we can't even get any information based on those
orders because they ceased the moment he died, So.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
A lawyer in New Zealand, No.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
We haven't yet because he's passed in Australia. So we
were trying to understand that.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
The reason, the reason why I'm mentioning that is you
may find that if you approach a lawyer in New Zealand,
they can take whatever paperwork has been given in Australia
and get it somehow certified by the courts here and
maybe that might that might help. Maybe they can get
it stamped, or they can get an order from the
courts based on the paperwork in Australia. I'm thinking there's
(19:49):
got to be some work way around and that might
be might be your first step is to talk to
New Zealand lawyer who deals with them.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Where's his property.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
He's got he's got several propperies around the country here
in his land, and he's got super in Australia and.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Australia, so there's a there's a there's a significant value
to the estate.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, I would say there's a couple of moment and
we're not until I assure yet because we haven't managed okay,
we can't even get information we serve.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
So the reason I asked is because you know, if
it's if it's a few thousand bucks, it's you know
you'd get whipped up by legal fees. But if it's
a couple of million, then I would say that it's
a no brainer to get some legal advice from it
New Zealand as well and see if they can work cooperatively.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Yes, it won't be the it won't be the first time,
and no it would be the last time that this
situation has cropped up. And I'm sure there's a mechanism
for it.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
How would just about what bends on that? How would
Ben find the right sort of lawyer for this? I
mean a lawyers abound, you know, everywhere, But how do
you find the right sort of lawyer to deal with
a cross trans Tasman state issue?
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Yeah? I would. I'd probably go to a medium sized
firm to start with, and make sure that I asked
the question when I spoke to the lawyer that they
had dealt with Australian issues before, and so that you
know that you're dealing with a lawyer that's got plenty
of experience in that area.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Great, thanks for you, col Ben. Right, let's go to
the next call. Brad.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Hello, Hello, a trust question. Yeah, we've we've got about
four family trusts, but one of them is specifically for
a house. So my mother died and it's a discretionary trust,
but on wind up, so everything's been wound up. It
splits things five ways amongst the children. Now we've got
(21:36):
professional trustees involved, and my mother wrote some wishes a
long time ago, said I want to give the house
to two of the five, and the trustees going, we'll
run with those wishes. And I'm going hang on. And
they're saying, because it's a discretionary trust, we can do
anything until it's wound up. And I'm going, that's flaunting
(21:58):
the trusteed. We would we stand on that?
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Well, hello, Brad, you have got you have got really
at tension there between the terms of the trusteed and
the memorandum of wishes, by the sounds of it. So
the trusteed, if it provides with the the trustees the
power to distribute and to distribute as they see fit,
(22:24):
then they are probably quite right. Because the memoran of
wishes is simply the wishes. It is not a legally
binding document to the point where they must follow it.
That said, memoran of wishes in recent times have become
much more prominent and much stronger.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
So what's a memory what's memory wishes.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Is really a document which says, on my death, I
wish the trustees to do the following in simple terms.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah, and and as you're concerned that they're going to
follow that brand.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Or that.
Speaker 6 (23:02):
It's going to court, they int tend to follow. And
I'm going man that the judge is going to smack
them over hand because they're fraunting what the trusteed actually really.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Wants to do.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
As I say, in recent times, memoranium wishes have gained prominence,
and a lot of memoranium wishes have been given credits
to considering the circumstances of the family. So it won't
just be the wishes that will be taken into account
all the terms of the trust. It will be the
circumstances as well.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
What's what's the conflict between the trusteed itself and the
memorandum wishes? What's the difference? What's the difference?
Speaker 6 (23:39):
That's the trustees thes divide things five ways equally five
give it two people. But it gets even more complicated
because the wishes were written twelve months before a dementia diagnosis,
and there's a lot of evidence.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
Yes, so that will come into play as well. And
possibly if there was dementia involved, then there may have
been a dot too involved at the time, so who
could provide an opinion? Those sorts of things are what
the courts take into account.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
It gets even more messy because the two people who
are getting the advantage of the wistards are the executives
of the state, and they won't release the medical records.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Okay, that's all so que mess They are you all
related to each other? I guess you or not? It's
just what a tragedy, isn't it. Well yeah, yeah, anyway,
good luck with that, Brad. That does sound quite a
meaty case for a lawyer to sink their teeth into,
(24:44):
doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
And that's why that's why trust is just so interesting
and for me exciting because new things come up with.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
That is that is I mean, there you go, the
trustee talks about five ways and then you know, a
menimum rand of wishes about talks about two. But the
conduct of the you know, then not releasing the medical records,
well I'm not buying that one.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
Well, maybe they're not actually able to maybe not well
because maybe they consider that they've only got two beneficiaries
and not really five, not really the other three. I
mean we don't know.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Well, a court is going to want to see those,
So absolutely.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
The court will want to see them and they want
released to the courts. And I would imagine that if
it's going through the courts, these lawyers for the beneficiaries
who haven't got the records are going to be asking
for those. So all of that will come out.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Got a good one for a judge A I mean,
if you're a judge, you'd be.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
Like, oh, this is me okay, now do you think
it's exciting?
Speaker 3 (25:45):
To be honest, I do find the stuff. I mean,
most of the cases we just gott When I studied
equity that was it's quite an interesting because it's all.
It's all, you know, And there are some outrageous cases
in terms of some of the arguments between family members.
I'll tell you what, nothing will turn a r a
family apart. Then you know you few zeros on the
(26:06):
end of a dollar.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Figure one hum cinder greeden. And in today's world, in
our modern world, we have more and more blended families.
Remember different interests and at different times in somebody's life
who's grown wealth, so it can become complicated.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Right, Look, I'm going to ask Peter to Peter's annex caller,
just to stand by Peter. We're going to get to
a quick break and we'll come straight to you after that.
It is my guest, by the way, if you've just
tuned in, is Janet Zucca. We're talking about trusts and wills,
and I started the show by asking how we could
best hide some money if you wanted to, just for fun,
just to be mischievous, and actually that's been quite fun. Anyway,
(26:42):
we'll be back on just the tickets twenty three minutes
to sex News Talk said B. News Talk said B.
By the way, we've got to I'm going to deal
with it very quick text here because we've got a
quick answer, I think this person says, and it's almost
like a public service text. We'll deal with do I
need a will if I'm in my forties and my
parents are still alive, I've got no children, no partner.
Would my parents automatically become executive of my estate? I
have assets and a house.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
Janet, Well, first, somebody, if you're going to die without
a will, that's dying intestate. So that's letters of administration
that's going to have to be applied for, and it's
likely that the person that applies for it will be
the one that will administer, and that's probably going to
be the parents or somebody on behalf of the parents.
But if you've got assets, it's a whole lot easier
(27:24):
to have a will in place. It's certainly going to
be a lot less costly and stressful for whoever it
has to clean things up.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Always have a will, because otherwise that your loved ones
have to deal with just a whole bag of difficult
circumstances and intestacy as a nightmare and expensive. Yeah, indeed, right,
let's go to Peter. Hello.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, a couple of questions. The first question, auditing a
states or trusts or whatever. Does that have to go
through the court of the trustees? Don't want to answer questions, Well.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
You're not getting information, Peter from a trustee for reason?
Then then I suppose ultimately you have no choice but
to apply to a court for a court order. I mean,
how else are you going to require them to give
you the information?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
And auditing trustees versus beneficiaries.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
So what's your specific question again, ordered or or.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
You know, doing an audit both on accounts and decisions
and everything.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
Yes, so you're you're saying, I am the auditor for
this trust? Is that what you're saying? No?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
No, I'm just saying outsiderers getting auditors or to see
whether they're to order.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
The financial accounts, you'd have to get them from the trustees.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, and then there are decisions and auditing the decisions
as well.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So can you not get the accounts.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
It was the decisions and the accounts.
Speaker 5 (29:02):
Yes, well they're not required blanch to just hand out
their records of their decisions and their meetings.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Are you a beneficiary of something or what what's standing
on this?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well, basically the trustees had in the estate and they
settled a claim and then as that claim was settled,
the person who put in the claim was paid out.
So then under the trustee it gets paid to the beneficiary,
and then the land that they have left is landlocked,
(29:39):
whereas the land wasn't landlocked before. So basically a person
put the claim and then gave bonuses of what they
claimed if you like, and then what's left is not
very much if.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
You like this is sounding very confusing. I'm not sure
Janet can follow this. Peder, you might need to just
go and talk to someone professionally about it, because when
my guests sort of is sort of screwing our eyes together,
going what the hell is this about? It might be
a bit much for our show, Peter, Sorry about that, mate, Terry, Hello.
Speaker 7 (30:16):
Good evening. Hello, this question may make her rise screw faster.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Here we go, let's get it.
Speaker 7 (30:26):
It's there's mean quite a bit of discussion recently on
social media about challenges to wills, and people are coming
back and saying that what you've written in the will
can be because you haven't had a professional person or
(30:47):
I'm not quite tea share of the wording of.
Speaker 8 (30:50):
The the.
Speaker 7 (30:52):
Of the challenge is that you will should go to
a judge instead of through a solicitor. You should have
a judge, a ju disible appointment of the executor.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
Okay, so we'll just start that from the vertop.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Has someone been cut out from a well?
Speaker 7 (31:14):
Now, well, no, this is somebody's challenged. Okay, but the
challenge has been now that you have to have a
judicial executor.
Speaker 5 (31:31):
Start. Let's just start at the top. Anything from social
media and the same right now for me, For me personally,
anything from AI, I like to get checked with the professionals,
because then then I absolutely know that that I'm talking
to someone that has got their finger on the pulse
and got the right information to provide to me. So
with regards to wills, when a person writes the world themselves,
(31:53):
often the language that they use is not clear and
it is ambiguous, and as a result, wills can be
interpreted in a mood of different ways by the language
that has been used. So a will does sometimes have
to go before the courts to actually be to be defined,
to be understood so that the executor can carry out
(32:14):
the instructions. As for the executor, well, a will will
always name an executor. If they don't name, I don't
know how you would draft a will without putting in
an executor, because it's pretty much the first thing that
you do at the top of the will. So I'm
a little unsure why social media would be saying it's
got to go before a judge to be judicially reviewed
(32:37):
to get an executor. That's just isn't making sense to
me at all.
Speaker 7 (32:41):
To approve, to approve that the executor.
Speaker 5 (32:45):
Well, a will is you know, put through for probate
and it's given a stamp by the High Court, and
that is that is, you know, the executor's proof that
they have the legal authority to carry out the instructions
that it's contained in the will. If the instructions are ambiguous,
then possibly it might go to the courts to be
(33:08):
defined so that the executor can safely carry out the
wishes of the person that's been been left the instructions
of the person that's been left in that will.
Speaker 7 (33:18):
Yeah, okay, okay, okay, Well, thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Cheers Terry. By the way, it's worth pointing out that
you can't it's not that hard to disinherit It's not
that easy to disinherit someone.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
It's not because we've got a raft of legislation and
which protects which you know, testamentary promis is a Family
Act and there's our whole source of lots of act.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
It's the Family Protection Act that's about wills, doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (33:44):
That's there's been cases recently that's gone through on that
as well, and that's about saying, well, we owe a
moral duty to the people that you know, we that
we have in our lives to actually provide for them.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
So the fact that someone's been written out of a will,
it doesn't mean you can't actually get something. I few have.
You know, you're one of three children, you've been you know,
you go to the court, you might find.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
Anybody can challenge. But if you are going to write
somebody out of a will, and I recently saw a
clause in a will whereby it was acknowledged that somebody
may well try and challenge the will, and as a
consequence of that, they left them one dollar and then
they explained why they were only going to get one dollar.
(34:29):
So when the challenge came, the will was provided and
it was like, let's go to court if we have to,
And thankfully it didn't go any further.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Right, Audrey, Hello, Audrey, you need to turn your radio off.
She's waiting until she hears eight seconds of little Taker
and show me saying Audrey, and she'll pick up the fire.
Speaker 8 (34:49):
Hello, Hello Audrey, Hello, I was just wondering about wills.
I trust I'm sorry. Our son was called. We had
two children. Our son was called by a drunk driver
and we went to the lawyer and changed it. So
everything went to ound other child, and the lawyer said
to put it in the trust. Now, just recently, my
(35:11):
husband's passed away and it's just my daughter and myself.
Do I have to have a trust or does it
just automatically? Would it just automatically go to her because
I've put it in the world and everything goes to her.
Speaker 5 (35:24):
Well, first of audio, I'm word fully so to hear
happened in your life that thank you. That is very sad,
and I imagine it's a trying time getting through those
sorts of things. I'm unsure what the terms of your
son dying and leaving funds, what those terms were, So
(35:47):
it may well be that a trust is needed. Likewise,
it may well not be. One would have to examine
the paperwork to go through things to work out whether
the trust has to stay in place to the intended beneficiary.
Speaker 8 (35:59):
As a certain age, we my husband and I changed
it just to our daughter after he died, and that's
when the lawyer said that when should put it in
a trust. And it's going back some years when that happened.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
How old is your daughter now, in the sixties, So
say that to me again.
Speaker 8 (36:21):
Please, sixty sixteen, she's sixty two.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
All right, okay, and she's I'm in the eighties, and she's.
Speaker 8 (36:29):
Fully able and yes, really capable, and she's just so
good with me.
Speaker 5 (36:35):
Yes, and she she's on her own, not with anybody
in her life.
Speaker 8 (36:39):
No, she's married with children and grandchildren.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
So possibly a trust is still a good thing because
it means that the money will be hers and hers alone.
It won't necessarily become relationship property unless she intermingles it.
Speaker 8 (36:55):
Yeah, I know, no one in the family would even
think about you know.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Yeah, that's not the issue. There is that the money
has been marked for her, and if it's kept separate,
then then it will indeed be hers. But if she
if it goes to her straight as an inheritance, then
at first blush, it should be hers. But inevitably it
ends up being mixed up with matrimonial money, relationship money,
(37:24):
and it loses its color as separate property. So it
is quite smart to have a trust and to keep
it said right.
Speaker 8 (37:32):
Okay, thank you so much, Thanks for your advice, Thank
you so much.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Wishes we'll take a moment, we'll come back. Gosh, time
flies again. It's nine minutes to six. News Talk, said
b This news Talk said b just wrapping up with
the Janet Z a co op one one here just
just tried to buy Janet's book trusts one two three.
They don't have it at posibly women's bookshop. Where can
it be brought? Please? And Janet, you suggest that they
(37:58):
drop you an email?
Speaker 5 (37:59):
Yes, so you should be to buy it a good bookshops,
but if you can't, Nationwide books also stock it and
you could easily drop me an email, which is Janet
at nz fts dot co dot nz.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Another one says, can we have a repeat show with
your guests? Let's just scratch the surface please, please, says John. Well,
of course you'll be back. Whyan't you Janet? Will we
get Janet back regularly?
Speaker 5 (38:22):
Yeah? I come back regularly.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Hello, we need to give a bit of a promo
before the next time you come on, so people don't
accidentally stumble across it. Another one just says, have we
got time? Yes we have. I have only a very
smaller state, about forty thousand. I want to split it
fifty fifty between my adult children. I did do will
back in twenty twenty, but I don't remember. I don't
remember much about it. Can I make a new will online? Well,
(38:47):
I guess techniquely and you can.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
You can. There's nothing stopping you from making a will.
You don't have to go to a lawyer to make
a will.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Make sure it's a New Zealand law.
Speaker 5 (38:56):
Well, it does need to be yes, New Zealand law,
and we need it to be in very clear, unambiguous
language and clearly it's got to the last world or
all worlds that have been written. And finally, it must
be executed correctly. So that's one of the reasons why
we have solicitors draft wills, because we make sure that
(39:16):
all of those things happen.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
And there's some if you want to see some of
the fantastic sort of tragedies and people's wills not being obeyed,
it's because they just didn't get it executed properly and
not one we want to study law. There were case
about you know, whether it was witnessed at the same
time as in blah blah blah blah blah. So yeah,
make sure you don't cock that one up. I don't
know technical expression, Hey, Janet, So well, look we've just
(39:39):
had a we've just had a request to get your back,
so I guess we'll have to get you back sometime, won't.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
We my mile have to find some time and if
people want to.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Check out, they do want some where do they find
a New Zealand Family Trust Services?
Speaker 5 (39:52):
Would you find us at nz FTS versus our website
ww dot NZFTS dot coded Z You find us in
Parnell and the phone number is zero to one four
five one nine six six.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Excellent. Thanks for listening. We will be back same time
next weekend. Thanks my producer Tyre, have a great night.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Those time.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
All those time?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Will you know?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Then I send my watch back to did it on
those time? Welcome back to the Weekend Collective. Well we're
(00:40):
not on Tulsa time. We're on Awkland time. But I'm
not sure if there's a There probably is a difference,
but I now I've started to say it. I sort
of feel I should know the answer that one, which
I'm not going to give you anyway, Welcome back to
the show, and this is Smart Money. We want your
calls on one hundred and eighty, ten and eighty and
you can text if you like on nine two, nine
to two, And for this hour, it's welcome to Smart Money.
(01:02):
Now I give it. I sort of mentioned it last
hour with our new guest, Rob Knight from The Breakers,
but this hour we have always had a busy time
with my next guest I'm to introduce. So if you've
got any questions around trusts and the protection of your assets,
then you should jump on the blow as sooner rather
(01:23):
than later, because as I've mentioned, often with this hour,
in particular with my guest, we end up running out
of time and can't get to everyone. So eight one
hundred and eighty ten eighty, there's a couple of things
that just to start get started off before I introduce her. Look,
we often think of trusts as a way to protect
our assets, especially if you work in certain fields. But
(01:45):
there's a you know, a surprising number of families use
them for just you know, we're going to stick it
all in a trust. Just I don't know why. And
I don't mean I don't know why because I disagree.
It's just like I was trying to remember the actual
reasons that anyone might just set up a trust. But
there's a story of a woman who had a child
from a previous relationship she'd put just to home before
(02:05):
getting remarried, so she started a trust to particularly firstborn.
Then there are people who have had their first relationship,
they've had their first family. They want to be able
to move into other relationships because the former relationship's breaken down,
they set up a trust. I mean, those are obvious ones,
I guess, But what are the ways that ordinary kiwis
use trusts? And are there other ways to meet those
(02:26):
needs without having to go through the process setting up
a trust? I mean, I guess that would be pre
meritablement agreements and all those sorts of things. Anyway, the
other question I want to dig into, and it's just
a mischievous one, is if you were wanting to just
hide your assets, can you actually hide your assets? Can
you do it legally and you know? Or is it
(02:47):
you have to do something illegally. I'm not sure why
anyone would hide their assets. Possibly just in case you
end up in a relationship and you don't want that
person to ever know that you owned I don't know,
a big building somewhere or pots of gold. Anyway to
discuss that with me is she is managing director for
New Zealand Family Trust Services and it's Janet's coahalo Janet.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
How are you?
Speaker 5 (03:12):
Hello?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Tim?
Speaker 5 (03:12):
And hello listeners? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Are you well?
Speaker 5 (03:15):
I'm very well? Any better and I would be twins?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Wow? Well you're absolutely fizzing. Hey, now look, can you
do people ever want to hide assets? I just I
was just thinking of it a mischievous question. I thought,
hang on a minute. They probably people who would love
people not to know that they've got this asset.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Probably been planted to you? Why from movies and books?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Oh yeah, probably watching Scar face all of that, Yes,
but I mean, you know, not people don't. I mean
people often think they want to hide money. I guess
in hiding income is of course that's not good because
you've got to pay tax on it.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
But it would actually be really good to talk to
divorce laws because I have been told that financial infidelity
is much stronger, much higher. Got a pensity of financial
infidelity of trying to hide assets in cash and so
light than them physical infidelity in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
What is what's? Ah, God, that's interesting? What is what
is financial infidelity?
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Because if financial infidelity it's a degree, isn't it? So
for example, you, yes, it's not very honest if you're
in a marriage and you're meant to be sharing everything,
and everything's meant to be fifty to fifty in open
and honest. But for an example of financial infidelity, a
true example that I came across was I worked for
(04:45):
a bank many many years ago, had their legal division,
and of course when somebody died, that was an estate,
and we were then put in charge of that account,
and we would deal with the lawyers and the beneficiaries
and this gentleman for years and years, for thirty odd
years he had put a percentage of his salary every
(05:07):
time he got paid into a bank account, a secret
in his name, a secret bank account in his name,
and of course, when he died, that money should then
go to his next of kin as per his will instructions,
which was his wife. And so we went to we
advise the lawyer, and we went to pay out, and
(05:29):
the wife demanded a meeting with me, and she said,
my husband wouldn't have done that. You've got that money
does not belong to me. You've got the wrong person
Like me.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I would have just been like it handed over. But
she was shocked about it.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
She just thought, this can't be right, because of course
it wasn't just the money. It's the fact that all
of these years he's been putting that away and not
to her knowledge. And the way I put it to
her is, well, I'm sure your husband would have told
you about it. Maybe this was a nice surprise for retirement.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
About well, do we know any reason? Why did you
know why he put the money away?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Was it just all I mean, because he was deceased.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
How did you even know that it existed? As a
as an executor of someone's estate, how did you know
that that how does that bank account come to your
attention of fees? I mean it doesn't seem immediately obvious.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
Yes, and that that is actually a really interesting question
because we used to have years and years ago, we
used to have birth desks and marriages, of course notified
in the paper and often in law officers. It would
be somebody's job to go through and work out if
anybody had died that was their client or We don't
have that anymore.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
So we don't have what birth deskin marriages, Well we.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Don't, well we do, but we don't have little run
on ads in the back of newspapers. That don't really
do that so much anymore. And certainly law clerks don't
sit in officers each day and go through the newspaper
to work that out.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
A fun job, that is.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
So what we what tends to happen is you will
a lawyer will become involved and they will shoot through
a precedent letter to all of the banks saying, would
my client be holding any bank accounts in this name?
Here's a copy of the desertificate, and if you are
indeed holding a bank account in that person's name, then
you'll write back to the lawyer and say yes, yes,
I'm here with the National Bank or the A and
(07:22):
Z Bank or whatever. And this gentleman does indeed hold
a bank account.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
So if you if you're acting for someone's you know
someone's died, do you do you does an executive right
to all the banks that around the place.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Game they may only just write to the banks that
they're aware of, or.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
If they're not, do they write to by the way,
if you've got any for instance, I mean the reason
I mentioned, I've got a rabo and it's not secret
from my wife knows that I've got a rabo, but
it's empty. And every now and again, if I was
thinking we're going to save up for a holiday, I
might sort of start putting a bit of money into it.
But she wouldn't know the number of it.
Speaker 5 (07:59):
And that's okay. She doesn't need to know that.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Then she might she might forget, and then you might.
So if mind you, there's not much money in it,
so like a dollar thirty or something, you know.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
Well, In my book Trust one two three, it actually
suggests that people write write a letter or to the
survivors and say to them and here the I've got
a who I'm holding bank accounts at these banks. You
should get the executor to have a look at that,
and then once we get a copy of the death
(08:35):
certificate and probraate, then we're good to go.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Passwords and all that sort of stuff. What happens these days? Modern?
In modern times? What happens with you know, obviously I
can access everyone access. Is there bank accounts, whether password
or some sort of password or security structure that you've
got a process you follow through. It used to be
with Rabo you had to get this little device where
you'd have a password and then you'd punch one number
and it'd punch another back. Then you'd punch it in
(09:00):
and then before it was about it took a while.
But is it from an executive's point of view? Can
you simply write to the bank and say, well, we
don't have you know, we don't have the passwords or anything,
but we're the executives. Here's the death certificate, hand it over.
Speaker 5 (09:15):
We don't need the passwords. There's a lot we're sitting
in banks. We don't need that. We can deal with
all of that. What we need, okay, is to see
legal authority that well, well, first off, legal evidence that
the person has ceased, and secondly, legal authority that whoever
is asking for the information and the legal right to it.
So usually that's a grant of probate.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
For example, I actually, I would be honest, I've been
curious about that because I was thinking whether I mean,
I'm still I like to think of myself as fairly young,
but you can you know, I'm biking around and you
never know you're going to get hit by a bus
or something. And I was thinking, I actually have gone
through this process in the last week or two, just
thinking if something happened to me, Howard Andrino to this
(09:57):
is where, this is where the bodies are buried.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
I've left, I've left instructions and it's actually on my
computer if I am dad read but ah really, And
then it goes through and says, go to these banks,
go to this financial.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Advisor, do this, do that, and how many people have that?
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Well? I try to get all of my clients to
do it, because what it does is it gives the
executor a bit of a heads up. I'm not saying
that they that they absolutely have to have it, but
it certainly does help because otherwise they've got to try
and find information you and you just don't know. My
mother was a prime example. She had I thought that
I knew of all the bank accounts, but I did,
(10:38):
you know. I followed suits and I sent a stylized
letter around to all of the banks, and United Building
Society came back to me and said, yes, we are
are indeed holding ten thousand dollars here for your mother.
I had no idea that she'd put that money in there,
and neither did she. She had completely forgotten. So that
was a nice, a nice bonus, you know that helped.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yes, Actually, i'd love to know if you if you're listening,
have you do you think I mean, some people don't
even have a will, and that's definitely not thinking it.
I don't even know where our wills are. This is
how far out of data I am. But my wife
will know where they are. But if I mean, something
happened to her, I'd be like, I'd probably have to
ransack the house. But the extra step of having the letter,
(11:22):
it does seem that's reasonably common sense. Yeah, it give
us a call on that ten eighty. It's a useful
bit of advice there. What about, by the way, that
bank account that was sort of secret. How much money
was in It wasn't quite a whack. It was a lot.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
That gentleman, whilst he wasn't on a very large wage,
he had every week that he had got paid put
aside percentage of his salary, the same percentage, and that
mounts up over thirty or thirty years.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
What was it one hundred thousand or half a million
or a lot it was. I'm not going to that, okay,
just in case we know who the client is.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
The money whilst being must being welcome. I would have
thought to the wife and the family it was painful
for her to think that her husband had committed infidelity
for all of those years. From the financial perspective, I.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Can actually give an innocent explanation that he might have
been simply saving for a retirement, and when he retired,
he was going to be like, by the way, I've
got this extra account that and he just never told
her about it. It could have been entirely innocent.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
I believe that it would have been. Then I said
that to her, I said, look, he wasn't trying to
feather his nest or have an exit.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
I mean, if we were withdrawals and they went into
the name of a secret lover. That would be a
little different.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
And in fact, there were never in all of that record.
There was never one would draw in all of those years.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I want to I'm going to dig into this. I
want to know how much it is. But anyway, he.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Must have he must have said somewhere along the line
to his wife, well this is what I earn.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Hmm. I mean, I don't know. It depends, but because
if the bills are paid, he might they might he
might have said this is what I am. But I mean,
how many I be honest, I think my wife has
a separate retirement sort of thing. I don't know how
much she puts into that, because I just sort of
trust that, you know, And I think that's the thing.
We both trust each other. And if I carke it,
(13:16):
then she knows that whatever bank accounts.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Have got, you know, And that's what that's what was upsetting,
I think to this lady. And if it's a joint account,
of course, then the money automatically reverts to the survivor.
But that wasn't the case.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And that's fascinating, isn't it. Go ten eighty that I've
got a little bit off the topic by the way
with Janets occur about squirreling. Well, no, not really. I
was talking about how do you hide how can you
hide money or assets or whatever, and can you do
it legally? But are there ways you can do it?
And I know it's not Janet's stock in trade, but
(13:50):
I just sort of thought she will know of people
who have tried to do X ones and I thought
there'd be a fun way to get off the topic
of Lada.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
These days, I mean, you've got aml Anti Money Laundering
Act where you've got to jump through a lot of
hoops to even open bank accounts. We now have electronic
trials on everything. Yeah, it's much harder these is.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
It harder just to open a bank account without anyone
else knowing? So, I mean the bank would know, but
could if you know, if you're not married or something,
you've just got a partner and you just want to
have some things and you don't want to tell them
about it, can you do it secretly?
Speaker 5 (14:26):
You could actually go into a bank and open a
bank account without telling anybody.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
I'm sure, So there's one way of doing it.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
You know you would have is missus tim listening? You
would you would you know you would have to provide
ID you would have to and still fill out their films,
but you could act as a physical act that you
could achieve I would imagine, so okay.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
By the way, we're also talking about trusts as well.
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. Janet Soco, managing director
for New Zealand Family Trust Services.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Is with us.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
We'll be back in just a moment. It's twenty one
past five. Yes, and welcome back. We're with Janet Zakara
talking trusts and wills and actually, you know, should you
leave instructions for your loved ones just in case you know,
nobody wants to die, do they nobody wants to get
hit by a bus or you never know what's going
to happen though, but should you have you know, instructions?
And have you got it? Larry's texted just saying and
(15:21):
where has it? Put your will? In an envelope marked
will place it in your top bedside draw. It'll get
found pretty quickly, I guess, so it might be the
last place there. Look of course, Ben, Hello.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
You get it.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
We're going through this at the moment. So we were
a watered guardianship by a v K in Australia or
my father in October last year. He passed away about
four weeks ago, and it's been an absolute nightmare. He
was a dual citizen. You own property here and over there.
He passed away over there, and it's just it's been
(15:57):
a nightmare of the banks over here won't accept the
paperwork that we got from the court in Australia. We're
having trouble, you know, offloading the property because they there
simply one accept you need the paperwork from over there,
and they need a funeral plan that was prepaid over here.
(16:18):
But now we're finding we're chucked as funeral and the
credit card and now the funeral plan we expected to
pay reimburse us won't reimburse us because the funeral was
held in Australia are not here.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
So that's an absolute oh my goodness.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
Yeah, well I absolutely hear that pain, and I have
seen that in several instances. It's quite important when you
have clients that reside overseas that the wills and the instructions,
insurance policies, all of those sorts of things are well
(16:55):
and surely tailored to clients living overseas as well as
living here. I mean, they may well have dual residency.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Even how's it go? How far through the process are
you being?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Well, then just started like he didn't leave a will,
and so you had three sons, myself and two brothers,
and so now it's up to us to just do
view relink out forgive. Your trouble is we've got a
solicitor in Australia who we just had to go get
because we just can't do it ourselves. And the trouble
is they can't request stuff from those bank accounts over
(17:31):
here because they are over there, and it's just it's
an epilote nine min. It's going to cost a heck
of a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
That sounds strange that a New Zealand bank won't take
a letter from an Australian solicitor, Is it weird? Janet?
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Well, look, I had trouble with with a bank and
myself in New Zealand where the Australian bank account that
was also in my name with the same bank, I
might add, had got closed and the New Zealand bank
was requiring certain things and to this level I needed
something to be certified. So I had a arted accountants
(18:05):
certified here in New Zealand, which is pretty much acceptable
to both banks and lawyers and accountants, but this particular
bank didn't want a chartered accountant to certify. They want
a certified practitioner.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
To what's the certified practitioner? What's the difference?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Pretty much the same thing as a chartered accountant in Australia,
the equivalent. And it was just difficult. It was just difficult.
So that's why I say, I feel your pain.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
How's it? So, how's the How long do you think
the process is going to take? Ben?
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Well, we're not sure. Like we know, he's got bank
accounts here, he's got property here. We haven't been able
to touch any of it yet because they just simply
won't accept the paperwork issued by the Australian Court. And
we've only just managed to get into the accounts in
Australia because we had access to them through the power
of attorney that was granted by the court last year,
(19:01):
but that ceased the moment he died. So the moment
he died, we no longer had extras.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
To cease to operate.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah, so it's been a real tough one because now
now we can't even get any information based on those
orders because they ceased the moment he died, So.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
A lawyer in New Zealand, No.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
We haven't yet because he's passed in Australia. So we
were trying to understand that.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
The reason, the reason why I'm mentioning that is you
may find that if you approach a lawyer in New Zealand,
they can take whatever paperwork has been given in Australia
and get it somehow certified by the courts here and
maybe that might that might help. Maybe they can get
it stamped, or they can get an order from the
courts based on the paperwork in Australia. I'm thinking there's
(19:49):
got to be some work way around and that might
be might be your first step is to talk to
New Zealand lawyer who deals with them.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Where's his property.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
He's got he's got several propperies around the country here
in his land, and he's got super in Australia and.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Australia, so there's a there's a there's a significant value
to the estate.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, I would say there's a couple of moment and
we're not until I assure yet because we haven't managed okay,
we can't even get information we serve.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
So the reason I asked is because you know, if
it's if it's a few thousand bucks, it's you know
you'd get whipped up by legal fees. But if it's
a couple of million, then I would say that it's
a no brainer to get some legal advice from it
New Zealand as well and see if they can work cooperatively.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Yes, it won't be the it won't be the first time,
and no it would be the last time that this
situation has cropped up. And I'm sure there's a mechanism
for it.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
How would just about what bends on that? How would
Ben find the right sort of lawyer for this? I
mean a lawyers abound, you know, everywhere, But how do
you find the right sort of lawyer to deal with
a cross trans Tasman state issue?
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Yeah? I would. I'd probably go to a medium sized
firm to start with, and make sure that I asked
the question when I spoke to the lawyer that they
had dealt with Australian issues before, and so that you
know that you're dealing with a lawyer that's got plenty
of experience in that area.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Great, thanks for you, col Ben. Right, let's go to
the next call. Brad.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Hello, Hello, a trust question. Yeah, we've we've got about
four family trusts, but one of them is specifically for
a house. So my mother died and it's a discretionary trust,
but on wind up, so everything's been wound up. It
splits things five ways amongst the children. Now we've got
(21:36):
professional trustees involved, and my mother wrote some wishes a
long time ago, said I want to give the house
to two of the five, and the trustees going, we'll
run with those wishes. And I'm going hang on. And
they're saying, because it's a discretionary trust, we can do
anything until it's wound up. And I'm going, that's flaunting
(21:58):
the trusteed. We would we stand on that?
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Well, hello, Brad, you have got you have got really
at tension there between the terms of the trusteed and
the memorandum of wishes, by the sounds of it. So
the trusteed, if it provides with the the trustees the
power to distribute and to distribute as they see fit,
(22:24):
then they are probably quite right. Because the memoran of
wishes is simply the wishes. It is not a legally
binding document to the point where they must follow it.
That said, memoran of wishes in recent times have become
much more prominent and much stronger.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
So what's a memory what's memory wishes.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Is really a document which says, on my death, I
wish the trustees to do the following in simple terms.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah, and and as you're concerned that they're going to
follow that brand.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Or that.
Speaker 6 (23:02):
It's going to court, they int tend to follow. And
I'm going man that the judge is going to smack
them over hand because they're fraunting what the trusteed actually really.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Wants to do.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
As I say, in recent times, memoranium wishes have gained prominence,
and a lot of memoranium wishes have been given credits
to considering the circumstances of the family. So it won't
just be the wishes that will be taken into account
all the terms of the trust. It will be the
circumstances as well.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
What's what's the conflict between the trusteed itself and the
memorandum wishes? What's the difference? What's the difference?
Speaker 6 (23:39):
That's the trustees thes divide things five ways equally five
give it two people. But it gets even more complicated
because the wishes were written twelve months before a dementia diagnosis,
and there's a lot of evidence.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
Yes, so that will come into play as well. And
possibly if there was dementia involved, then there may have
been a dot too involved at the time, so who
could provide an opinion? Those sorts of things are what
the courts take into account.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
It gets even more messy because the two people who
are getting the advantage of the wistards are the executives
of the state, and they won't release the medical records.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Okay, that's all so que mess They are you all
related to each other? I guess you or not? It's
just what a tragedy, isn't it. Well yeah, yeah, anyway,
good luck with that, Brad. That does sound quite a
meaty case for a lawyer to sink their teeth into,
(24:44):
doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
And that's why that's why trust is just so interesting
and for me exciting because new things come up with.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
That is that is I mean, there you go, the
trustee talks about five ways and then you know, a
menimum rand of wishes about talks about two. But the
conduct of the you know, then not releasing the medical records,
well I'm not buying that one.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
Well, maybe they're not actually able to maybe not well
because maybe they consider that they've only got two beneficiaries
and not really five, not really the other three. I
mean we don't know.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Well, a court is going to want to see those,
So absolutely.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
The court will want to see them and they want
released to the courts. And I would imagine that if
it's going through the courts, these lawyers for the beneficiaries
who haven't got the records are going to be asking
for those. So all of that will come out.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Got a good one for a judge A I mean,
if you're a judge, you'd be.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
Like, oh, this is me okay, now do you think
it's exciting?
Speaker 3 (25:45):
To be honest, I do find the stuff. I mean,
most of the cases we just gott When I studied
equity that was it's quite an interesting because it's all.
It's all, you know, And there are some outrageous cases
in terms of some of the arguments between family members.
I'll tell you what, nothing will turn a r a
family apart. Then you know you few zeros on the
(26:06):
end of a dollar.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Figure one hum cinder greeden. And in today's world, in
our modern world, we have more and more blended families.
Remember different interests and at different times in somebody's life
who's grown wealth, so it can become complicated.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Right, Look, I'm going to ask Peter to Peter's annex caller,
just to stand by Peter. We're going to get to
a quick break and we'll come straight to you after that.
It is my guest, by the way, if you've just
tuned in, is Janet Zucca. We're talking about trusts and wills,
and I started the show by asking how we could
best hide some money if you wanted to, just for fun,
just to be mischievous, and actually that's been quite fun. Anyway,
(26:42):
we'll be back on just the tickets twenty three minutes
to sex News Talk said B. News Talk said B.
By the way, we've got to I'm going to deal
with it very quick text here because we've got a
quick answer, I think this person says, and it's almost
like a public service text. We'll deal with do I
need a will if I'm in my forties and my
parents are still alive, I've got no children, no partner.
Would my parents automatically become executive of my estate? I
have assets and a house.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
Janet, Well, first, somebody, if you're going to die without
a will, that's dying intestate. So that's letters of administration
that's going to have to be applied for, and it's
likely that the person that applies for it will be
the one that will administer, and that's probably going to
be the parents or somebody on behalf of the parents.
But if you've got assets, it's a whole lot easier
(27:24):
to have a will in place. It's certainly going to
be a lot less costly and stressful for whoever it
has to clean things up.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Always have a will, because otherwise that your loved ones
have to deal with just a whole bag of difficult
circumstances and intestacy as a nightmare and expensive. Yeah, indeed, right,
let's go to Peter. Hello.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, a couple of questions. The first question, auditing a
states or trusts or whatever. Does that have to go
through the court of the trustees? Don't want to answer questions, Well.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
You're not getting information, Peter from a trustee for reason?
Then then I suppose ultimately you have no choice but
to apply to a court for a court order. I mean,
how else are you going to require them to give
you the information?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
And auditing trustees versus beneficiaries.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
So what's your specific question again, ordered or or.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
You know, doing an audit both on accounts and decisions
and everything.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
Yes, so you're you're saying, I am the auditor for
this trust? Is that what you're saying? No?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
No, I'm just saying outsiderers getting auditors or to see
whether they're to order.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
The financial accounts, you'd have to get them from the trustees.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, and then there are decisions and auditing the decisions
as well.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So can you not get the accounts.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
It was the decisions and the accounts.
Speaker 5 (29:02):
Yes, well they're not required blanch to just hand out
their records of their decisions and their meetings.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Are you a beneficiary of something or what what's standing
on this?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well, basically the trustees had in the estate and they
settled a claim and then as that claim was settled,
the person who put in the claim was paid out.
So then under the trustee it gets paid to the beneficiary,
and then the land that they have left is landlocked,
(29:39):
whereas the land wasn't landlocked before. So basically a person
put the claim and then gave bonuses of what they
claimed if you like, and then what's left is not
very much if.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
You like this is sounding very confusing. I'm not sure
Janet can follow this. Peder, you might need to just
go and talk to someone professionally about it, because when
my guests sort of is sort of screwing our eyes together,
going what the hell is this about? It might be
a bit much for our show, Peter, Sorry about that, mate, Terry, Hello.
Speaker 7 (30:16):
Good evening. Hello, this question may make her rise screw faster.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Here we go, let's get it.
Speaker 7 (30:26):
It's there's mean quite a bit of discussion recently on
social media about challenges to wills, and people are coming
back and saying that what you've written in the will
can be because you haven't had a professional person or
(30:47):
I'm not quite tea share of the wording of.
Speaker 8 (30:50):
The the.
Speaker 7 (30:52):
Of the challenge is that you will should go to
a judge instead of through a solicitor. You should have
a judge, a ju disible appointment of the executor.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
Okay, so we'll just start that from the vertop.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Has someone been cut out from a well?
Speaker 7 (31:14):
Now, well, no, this is somebody's challenged. Okay, but the
challenge has been now that you have to have a
judicial executor.
Speaker 5 (31:31):
Start. Let's just start at the top. Anything from social
media and the same right now for me, For me personally,
anything from AI, I like to get checked with the professionals,
because then then I absolutely know that that I'm talking
to someone that has got their finger on the pulse
and got the right information to provide to me. So
with regards to wills, when a person writes the world themselves,
(31:53):
often the language that they use is not clear and
it is ambiguous, and as a result, wills can be
interpreted in a mood of different ways by the language
that has been used. So a will does sometimes have
to go before the courts to actually be to be defined,
to be understood so that the executor can carry out
(32:14):
the instructions. As for the executor, well, a will will
always name an executor. If they don't name, I don't
know how you would draft a will without putting in
an executor, because it's pretty much the first thing that
you do at the top of the will. So I'm
a little unsure why social media would be saying it's
got to go before a judge to be judicially reviewed
(32:37):
to get an executor. That's just isn't making sense to
me at all.
Speaker 7 (32:41):
To approve, to approve that the executor.
Speaker 5 (32:45):
Well, a will is you know, put through for probate
and it's given a stamp by the High Court, and
that is that is, you know, the executor's proof that
they have the legal authority to carry out the instructions
that it's contained in the will. If the instructions are ambiguous,
then possibly it might go to the courts to be
(33:08):
defined so that the executor can safely carry out the
wishes of the person that's been been left the instructions
of the person that's been left in that will.
Speaker 7 (33:18):
Yeah, okay, okay, okay, Well, thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Cheers Terry. By the way, it's worth pointing out that
you can't it's not that hard to disinherit It's not
that easy to disinherit someone.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
It's not because we've got a raft of legislation and
which protects which you know, testamentary promis is a Family
Act and there's our whole source of lots of act.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
It's the Family Protection Act that's about wills, doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (33:44):
That's there's been cases recently that's gone through on that
as well, and that's about saying, well, we owe a
moral duty to the people that you know, we that
we have in our lives to actually provide for them.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
So the fact that someone's been written out of a will,
it doesn't mean you can't actually get something. I few have.
You know, you're one of three children, you've been you know,
you go to the court, you might find.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
Anybody can challenge. But if you are going to write
somebody out of a will, and I recently saw a
clause in a will whereby it was acknowledged that somebody
may well try and challenge the will, and as a
consequence of that, they left them one dollar and then
they explained why they were only going to get one dollar.
(34:29):
So when the challenge came, the will was provided and
it was like, let's go to court if we have to,
And thankfully it didn't go any further.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Right, Audrey, Hello, Audrey, you need to turn your radio off.
She's waiting until she hears eight seconds of little Taker
and show me saying Audrey, and she'll pick up the fire.
Speaker 8 (34:49):
Hello, Hello Audrey, Hello, I was just wondering about wills.
I trust I'm sorry. Our son was called. We had
two children. Our son was called by a drunk driver
and we went to the lawyer and changed it. So
everything went to ound other child, and the lawyer said
to put it in the trust. Now, just recently, my
(35:11):
husband's passed away and it's just my daughter and myself.
Do I have to have a trust or does it
just automatically? Would it just automatically go to her because
I've put it in the world and everything goes to her.
Speaker 5 (35:24):
Well, first of audio, I'm word fully so to hear
happened in your life that thank you. That is very sad,
and I imagine it's a trying time getting through those
sorts of things. I'm unsure what the terms of your
son dying and leaving funds, what those terms were, So
(35:47):
it may well be that a trust is needed. Likewise,
it may well not be. One would have to examine
the paperwork to go through things to work out whether
the trust has to stay in place to the intended beneficiary.
Speaker 8 (35:59):
As a certain age, we my husband and I changed
it just to our daughter after he died, and that's
when the lawyer said that when should put it in
a trust. And it's going back some years when that happened.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
How old is your daughter now, in the sixties, So
say that to me again.
Speaker 8 (36:21):
Please, sixty sixteen, she's sixty two.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
All right, okay, and she's I'm in the eighties, and she's.
Speaker 8 (36:29):
Fully able and yes, really capable, and she's just so
good with me.
Speaker 5 (36:35):
Yes, and she she's on her own, not with anybody
in her life.
Speaker 8 (36:39):
No, she's married with children and grandchildren.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
So possibly a trust is still a good thing because
it means that the money will be hers and hers alone.
It won't necessarily become relationship property unless she intermingles it.
Speaker 8 (36:55):
Yeah, I know, no one in the family would even
think about you know.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Yeah, that's not the issue. There is that the money
has been marked for her, and if it's kept separate,
then then it will indeed be hers. But if she
if it goes to her straight as an inheritance, then
at first blush, it should be hers. But inevitably it
ends up being mixed up with matrimonial money, relationship money,
(37:24):
and it loses its color as separate property. So it
is quite smart to have a trust and to keep
it said right.
Speaker 8 (37:32):
Okay, thank you so much, Thanks for your advice, Thank
you so much.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Wishes we'll take a moment, we'll come back. Gosh, time
flies again. It's nine minutes to six. News Talk, said
b This news Talk said b just wrapping up with
the Janet Z a co op one one here just
just tried to buy Janet's book trusts one two three.
They don't have it at posibly women's bookshop. Where can
it be brought? Please? And Janet, you suggest that they
(37:58):
drop you an email?
Speaker 5 (37:59):
Yes, so you should be to buy it a good bookshops,
but if you can't, Nationwide books also stock it and
you could easily drop me an email, which is Janet
at nz fts dot co dot nz.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Another one says, can we have a repeat show with
your guests? Let's just scratch the surface please, please, says John. Well,
of course you'll be back. Whyan't you Janet? Will we
get Janet back regularly?
Speaker 5 (38:22):
Yeah? I come back regularly.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Hello, we need to give a bit of a promo
before the next time you come on, so people don't
accidentally stumble across it. Another one just says, have we
got time? Yes we have. I have only a very
smaller state, about forty thousand. I want to split it
fifty fifty between my adult children. I did do will
back in twenty twenty, but I don't remember. I don't
remember much about it. Can I make a new will online? Well,
(38:47):
I guess techniquely and you can.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
You can. There's nothing stopping you from making a will.
You don't have to go to a lawyer to make
a will.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Make sure it's a New Zealand law.
Speaker 5 (38:56):
Well, it does need to be yes, New Zealand law,
and we need it to be in very clear, unambiguous
language and clearly it's got to the last world or
all worlds that have been written. And finally, it must
be executed correctly. So that's one of the reasons why
we have solicitors draft wills, because we make sure that
(39:16):
all of those things happen.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
And there's some if you want to see some of
the fantastic sort of tragedies and people's wills not being obeyed,
it's because they just didn't get it executed properly and
not one we want to study law. There were case
about you know, whether it was witnessed at the same
time as in blah blah blah blah blah. So yeah,
make sure you don't cock that one up. I don't
know technical expression, Hey, Janet, So well, look we've just
(39:39):
had a we've just had a request to get your back,
so I guess we'll have to get you back sometime, won't.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
We my mile have to find some time and if
people want to.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Check out, they do want some where do they find
a New Zealand Family Trust Services?
Speaker 5 (39:52):
Would you find us at nz FTS versus our website
ww dot NZFTS dot coded Z You find us in
Parnell and the phone number is zero to one four
five one nine six six.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Excellent. Thanks for listening. We will be back same time
next weekend. Thanks my producer Tyre, have a great night.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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