February 8, 2026 • 41 mins
Growing older is expensive - much more expensive than most people realise.
When you or a loved one either decides to move into aged care or is forced to do so, the Ministry of Social Development will quickly swoop in to flip through all their finances.
Any assets, gifted funds, trusts, even living rent free - it's all looked at and impacts their chances of government-subsidised care.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks ABE.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
And welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective or welcome
And if you've just joined us, I'm Tim Beverage. And
by the way, if you miss any of the hours
after six o'clock, just go and check out our podcast
on the look for the Weekend Collective on News Talks
dB or on iHeartRadio. But if you have just joined us,
I to be inviting your your calls and your participation
(01:00):
on eight hundred eighty ten eighty or text nine nine two.
And for this hour it is Smart Money and you
know as you know with Smart Money, where we explore
a range of range of questions around just looking after
your wealth and getting it and gaining it and keeping it.
But of course as you grow older it can be
quite expensive, much more expensive than people realize. So when
(01:23):
you were a loved one either decides to move or
decides always actually forced to sometimes many times because of health,
to move into aged care or hospital care, the Ministry
of Social Development can quickly swoop in to flip through
all your finances and make you pay for it all
until were maybe there's not a hell of a lot
of it left and any assets gifted funds, trusts, even
(01:47):
living rent free, it's all looked at and impacts of
chances of government subsidized care. So where do trusts come
into this, and how exactly do trust trusts and your
assets fit into aged care? And if you've been sort
of responsible making decisions around the sort of thing, were
you shocked to learn about it when you when yourself
(02:09):
are a loved one and went through this whole process.
We want to hear from you on eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two anyway to
discuss this. Janet's Acoa is managing director for New Zealand
Family Trusts Services Limited, And I mean it's not too
soon to say she's a regular, but she's becoming such
because I think we've had her on a few times.
And so if you have any questions for Janet generally,
(02:33):
and I've given this warning sometimes that we have guessed
that people sit back and all of a sudden you're
flooding at the end and want to talk to him.
We've run out of time. So if you've got any
questions for Janet, then give us a call. Eight hundred
eighty ten eighty. But Janet, Hello, how are you?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Hello? Tim? Thank you for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thanks for coming in. Have you had a bit of
a break you had had some time off?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, I had a couple of couple of weeks off
and it was the first time I've had a couple
of weeks off over Christmas in many years. Really enjoyed
some some playing with my new pet. Excellent.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Did you you didn't travel overseas anywhere exotically?
Speaker 4 (03:07):
I did.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
The last thing I wanted was get on a plane
at Christmas. Your on planes on a regular basis, and
it's no treat to go away at Christmas. As of
other people, I'd sooner do that in the year.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough, Hey, because we touched on.
The reason we're talking about this is because it has
popped up briefly in our conversations with just around the
whole age care and subsidies for because the observation that
many people have made is that you know, you might
save a lot for your retirement, but if you have
to spend a year or two in aged care, either
(03:39):
with you or your partner, that money can quickly get
whittled away. Unless you have very very early on squirreled it,
squirreled it away and a trust? What if what can
you tell us about.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Well your comment where you say where you said when
you opened the show up. Some people might have been
quite surprised when they come to apply for a rest
home that the government is inquiring what they've got and
if they've got a trust. That's sort of thing. I'm
amazed that there are store people out there that aren't
aware or more conscious of the rules around that, because
historically that was the position. We used to put all
(04:14):
of our assets into a trust, forgive all the debt
that the trust owed us because we didn't we usually
didn't give the assets to the trust. Where we sold
the assets to the trust, we got a debt back,
and then we forget progressively each year they gave so
much money off that debt. Use it twenty seven thousand.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
That was the rule that you used to get for duty.
You could get twenty seven year which back forty thirty.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Years ago, one cent over twenty seven thousand, and you
were paying gift duty at a sliding rate of five
to twenty five percent. So everybody, everybody when they when
they sold their assets to trust and got a debt
back fore gave twenty seven thousand dollars of this debt
each year. And then there was a review by the
government in two thousand and nine and they said, well,
we're going to have a look at this whole gifting regime.
(05:01):
And when they did that, they they they've identified that
the objectives of the regime was really to protect the
tax base against tax avoidance, to ensure the creditors were protected,
and to really maintain the integrity of resisting social assistance policies.
(05:21):
They also found some other things. They found out that
there was an ample legislation around at that time to
protect creditors, and that very little gift duty was ever
collected because, as you could imagine.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Everyone was following the rule.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Absolutely they were following the rules and they didn't want
to so let's get rid of it. Absolutely so, and
they found that the cost of actually administering this system
far outweighed the actual revenue collected. So in October twenty
eleven they decided that going forward, for the disposition of
property and I'm talking all property and not just real estate,
(05:53):
no more do you have to pay gift duty.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
And because it was covered by the law where if
you had set up a trust to avoid paying your creditors,
they'd look through the trust anyway.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
That's right. So there was lots of ad protections around
for creditors just.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Before How long was? How long ago was the twenty
seven thousand a year? Well decided that because twenty seven
thousand bucks a year in nineteen eighty five absolutely is
a hell of a lot more money than twenty seven
thousand bucks now. And yet it still is a magic
figure somewhere, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yes, it is, it is. But that's where it gets interesting.
So it was October twenty eleven that you're talking about.
That's when the rules changed, and that's where that's where
the Ministry of Social Welfare and the common Law got involved.
Because now when you want to get a restaurum subsidy,
there's three tests that have to be done. First off,
as you would expect, there's a needs assessment and a
(06:45):
doctor has to sign off on that that you actually
need care. Then there's what I call the means assessment,
and that's all about assets. And as you rightfully said, before,
Ministry Social Warfare they look at the assets like cash
and savings and life insurance policies that might have values
on them, boats, investment properties, loans owing to that person
(07:07):
that's important, certain things are excluded like household items. And
then assuming that you pass that means assessment, then you
are in the final test regime and you are looking
at income and an income assessment will be done. And
then any forms of income such as superannuation and dividends
(07:29):
and bonds and term deposits, rents from investment properties, dividends
maybe from lookthrough companies that you might own shares and
where you investment properties are all of that is taken
into account. And once all those tests are done, well,
once the last test is done, because you have to
keep that these are progressive hurdles. Once the last test
(07:50):
is done, then Minister Social Welfare say well, this is
how much money you generally have and will pay this
much and you'll pay that much. And as you could imagine,
these rules give rise to lots of potential manipulations. For example,
somebody might put all of their assets in the trust
(08:10):
forgive all the debt and then say well I've got
no assets and no income other than supernuation, and I'm
all your tests.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
So therefore you're going to pay for my age or.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
There might be a situation where they decide that they're
going to give away all of the most of their
assets to their children before they even need need to subsisdy,
a bit of a dangerous thing to do. Or they
might say I'll loan money out to all of my
friends and family and then I've got nothing. So therefore,
so you know.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
The government, there's a big butt coming here, isn't there?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
So the big butt is that when you're going through
all of these tests, the Ministry of soci'll work for
quite clever people and they they look back, so right
now the.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Fact of a legitimately set up trust doesn't do it
for them, does it?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
No, it can be, it can be quite legitimate. There's
there's what they call permissible wealth limits. So I think
it's for single person, both people in care a couple,
you're allowed about two hundred and ninety one odd thousand,
I think.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So that's what they'll leave you with. They'll make you
pay for your own health care at a certain rate
until it's down to that, and then they'll leave you alone.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Well, and then they might step in and then But
for couples where one person's care and the other remains
remains in the family home. I think you can either
claim the two ninety one that's your permissile wealth and
will include all assets including the home, or you can
claim about one hundred and fifty nine, which excludes the
home and excludes the car.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
These rules are it's actually I think it's one hundred
and something ninety eight.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yeah, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
But you're allowed to keep your house. But as soon
as that house is sold because that partner bestenly, I mean,
we've seen this in our family as well, where you know,
there's one person, one person's gone into he care and
then the other one is still living in the house
and so they don't count the house. But the amount
of money you're allowed to have in cash and bank
is a lot less. And then as soon as you
sell the house, they start whit that a way as well.
(10:06):
So that's pretty bloody growthless.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
So those areule sound complicated, right, but it gets even
more conflicted because you are actually allowed to do some gifting.
So remember we're talking about forgiving debt and gifting. You
are actually allowed to gift up to eight thousand per
per anum within five years of making the application, and
gifts made prior to that five years from making that
(10:31):
application can be up to twenty seven thousand. But that's
where the common law comes in. Because the call I
said to you at the beginning, it was twenty seven
thousand a couple that you were so per person, that
was allowed twenty seven thousand per person you were allowed
to forgive debt by well under new rules, okay, under
the rules under the common law is twenty seven thousand
(10:52):
per couple. So that's thirty and a half thousand.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
So what's the eight thousand gifting with the AIG. This
is complicated.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It's really complicated, right, So I can't stress enough. First
all documentation must be kept for gifting for sure. And secondly,
get some advice. We do a lot of the views
of these applications in consultation with solicitors and accountants with
a lot of them, because it's really complicated. The devil
is in the detail.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
But actually, if you but if you do want to say,
if you're an older couple who want to pass things
to your children, well, if you're both in care, that
you're going to be left with two hundred and ninety
ninety one thousand, which is a shock for a lot
of people. So a lot of people would think, oh, look,
you know we've got we've got a house that's mortgage free,
(11:41):
and when we sell it, you know, we when we
pass away, we'll be able to pass that all to
our kids. But if they are going to hospital care,
it can be several thousand dollars a week.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Fifteen hundred dollars is pretty standard for ordinary every day care. Yeah,
let's say that I've got a friend who's got both
parents in care. It's horrendous.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
It's horrendous, more a lot, it's horrendous. I don't think
there'll be much inheritance left. No, no, I really don't.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So the one it's funny, so that what you should do,
if you are in that situation should at least gift
as much as you can. Like that, you said, there's
that five year period where you can give eight thousand
a year. Yes, you must well do that, but.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
You may as well. But it's not a lot, is it. No,
that's not a lot. And we're looking today at asset values.
You know, an average home in Auckland has got to
be I actually don't know what the average value of
houses in Auckland, but it's got to be sevent fifty plus,
isn't It's good?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I think it's back up to a million. Is the
average the medium price in Auckland? I think. I think
it was something I saw.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
So that's going to take a lot of gifting, isn't
it if a single person at twenty seven thousand a
year or if you're a couple thirty and a half
thousand a year.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
So just for people who are listening, it's one point
two million. Apparently by the way, has just done that.
But it does sound like we've given a lot of
a lot of information there. But basically, when it comes
to you, if you are getting older, if you haven't
set up a trust well in advance with a regular
(13:10):
gifting regime, it doesn't matter if that trust is all
valid and everything. The Ministry of Social Development will look
through it and will use a lot of that money
if they think you've given it away too quickly to
the trust.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Because it can be deemed to be deprivation of assets.
And sometimes when you're right on the cusp, you do
what's known as a trust reversal, so you you take
the house out of the trust and you can still
manage things at that at that rate.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So the need if I just get the straight so
if you're a couple, you might have sent it. How
far back do the Ministry of Social Development go? Because
at twenty seven thousand dollars a year, if you set
the trust up twenty years in advance, that's still only
five hundred and forty dollars.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I'm getting it. So mind you, the house might have
been less than five hundred back twenty odd years ago,
especially if we're in a major city in New Zealand.
They by law, I believe they can go back as
far as they like. Would they do that? I actually
don't know where. I do think is the danger is
(14:15):
that when the gifting regime was abolished, a lot of
people was like, this is fantastic. We no longer have
to do gifting each year. We no longer have to
pay our accountants and lawyers and trust administers to all
of that. Let's just lump some gift if youthink yeah, yeah,
there was a problem because those rules are retrospective, so
they'll look back and if anything was gifted that wasn't
meant to be gifted and I've just given you the
(14:37):
limits already, they will that Ministry of Social Welfare will
add that back into a notional balance sheet and say, well,
you've deprived yourself of all of that.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Here's the thing that's a bit ropey. So when so
the magic figure is twenty seven thousand dollars a year
and that was established in nineteen eighty four, and that
hasn't This is where I think the Ministry of Selfial
Development is well out of order, because twenty seven thousand
bucks a year nine eighty four in today's terms is
this is a quick, quick calculation done through AI basically
(15:09):
depending on what interest rate you take into account. But
the purchasing power back in nine eighty four, twenty seven
thousand dollars is the equivalent of between eighty four and
ninety six thousand dollars these days. So they are allowing
people very little room when it comes to clawing back
and that your money.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
And that goes back to politics, doesn't it and policies
that are set. I should everybody be entitled to rest
time care irrespective of the value of their wealth. Can
New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Wow, that's it, That's why they take every cent they
can get.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Absolutely, these are really these are nobly issues that really
infuse feeling in people.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Well, that's the irony is is I mean, the Greens
go on about a wealth tax and all these things
are trying to get wealth back. It's just like, now
just wait until you go to hospital care or aged care.
Don't worry. The government are going to get that money.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
Well they basically will, weren't they. How many people can
people escape it through a trust? I don't mean escape it,
that's the wrong language. But okay, escape it.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That's I mean, because it implies that you're setting up
the trust for the wrong purpose, doesn't it. So you
can't use the word to escape it. So Janet's not
going to use it. How can we avoid I can't
even say avoid it there?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
There are there are trust clients out there that that
do fit the vigime all and can indeed get a
Western subsidy. What I would say is that the devil
again is most certainly in the detail, and you need
to get really good advice on it, especially when you're
handling those films. Get the advice beforehand, make sure you
(16:47):
talk to the people who truly understand what they're doing there.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Actually, the other thing to be fair on this stuff
is I think that you know, not everyone in the
government departments is out to be horrible. I think if
you are, the worst thing you can be is non transparent.
If you are up front with things, that's the best
way of heading in fact, because it is so difficult
to manage. Because you can get advice from the ministry
(17:12):
about this, Yes you can, and it's to be honest.
It's not going to be escaped by being dishonest. You
are better to get advice from them as well, and
they will tell you what you can do.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
And I think it's important to keep in mind that
I think it's about five percent of people going to
West Home Care in your zune, about five percent, And
when you.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Always assumed it was everyone.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
And when you where you are, and I'm talking about
westtern care, where you really can no longer.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Cope with yourself.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
You can't look after yourself. It's not like you're buying
something in a nice retirement but it's a nice apartment
that sort of thing, and going there to have lots
of friends and lots of outings, which is what I
would be doing. But for those people that have to
go into West hon Care because they're a longer care
for themselves, I think it's about five percent of our population.
And of that, I think the average lifespan is about
(18:04):
one point seven one point eight years, so it's not
very long. But a fifteen hundred and two grand a week,
it still mounts up, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Per person?
Speaker 6 (18:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, so why would if? It's almost seems that having
a trust for the purpose of defeating that side of
things is really I'm not going to say waste of time,
but it's very unlikely to succeed, I guess, isn't it
unless you've done unless you've thought twenty or thirty years ahead.
(18:35):
Would that be right?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Well, people, I'm sure nobody sets up a trust to
defeat anything. I'm sure they don't.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
You have Well, I know you have to say that anyway,
I'm positive for that. I love the way you got
through that with a straight face. But anyways, Carrier, But
I mean no, But people do set up trust to
protect their assets.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
From creditors, for relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Claims, yes, and that's legit.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Those are all legitimate purpose, sometimes for tax tax red's okay,
which is quite legitimate, and sometimes for inhergence purposes. So
what I mean by that is I was just having conversation. Actually,
with weather friend and she was explaining to me that
her family, you know, they require certain documents to be signed,
and that's because what they're trying to do is there's
(19:23):
a waterfall of trust involved and they're trying to protect
the wealth as it comes down within a family group.
So that's via trust.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
And often trust gets set up in a will. Even
you might sit by virtue of that mechanism because you
want to be clear about who's getting what.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And we are and it can it did occur. All
I say when people use that mechanism is let's hope
that the asset still exists to set up the trust
at that point.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Indeed, one of the reasons why I like the trust
set up before the will is really.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Well, it's complicated. I mean, the funny thing is trusts
in a way, the concept of a trust is so simple.
It's just it in terms of setting it up, making
them work the way you want them to work is
something that needs.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Well for me, they're intellectually challenging and I really enjoyed them.
That's why this is my arena that I've chosen to
spend my career in.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Right, we'd love your cause. If you've got any questions
for Janet. We've started off talking about the rest home subsidies,
just because it is an issue where people think I've
got a trust I don't need to worry about it. Well,
not necessarily eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. We also
are going to have a look into things that mistakes
that can occur with trusts as well. I imagine some
of those mistakes might just be the assumptions on how
(20:35):
they're going to protect whatever you are looking to protect.
It is gosh, we've talked. We've talked quite a lot.
We've been taken any cause, I better go to the break.
We'll be back with your calls straight after this. It's
twenty seven past five News Talks that'd be We're with
Janet Zucca, Managing direction for New Zealand Family Trust Services Limited,
tom ad Age Care and Trusts. Steve, Hello, Yeah, Hi,
(20:55):
how are you good? Thanks?
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Yeah, I was just listening. I'm finding it such an
interesting conversation. Makes You're on routes to see my mother
who's in memory care, and like a lot of people,
you know, when you look at the cost of about
twitter and thirteen dollars a day memory care, suddenly Het
your calculator out and it's about sixty five thousand to
seventy thousand dollars a year for care. And then you know,
(21:20):
I look at this whole thing and at the moment,
I'm really struggling. We're trying to find someone who knows
the system really, really well, because you talk to the accountants,
you talk to the lawyer, you look at the family trust,
and I've had to go back to the lawyer who's
actually gone and got the family trust back from nineteen
ninety eight, and every time you talk to then suddenly
(21:41):
spend another couple of thousand there, another couple of thousand there.
So what I ended up doing about eighteen months ago
is selling the house of mum me and she went
into memory care because my father passed lay five years ago.
And I'm lucky enough to be in a position where
the trust that has the funds is currently paying what
(22:02):
I call the top up of the pension to paper
i'm's care. And then when I talk to the accountant,
my mother apparently introduced four hundred thousand dollars into the
trust in nineteen ninety eight, and now it's the debt
apparently was forgiven then. But I'm getting contracted information from
(22:23):
the lawyer which are totally different from the accountants about
when to actually apply and if there's any chance to
apply at all, because the trust obviously has got some
good amount of funds on it. So it's actually so confusing.
I don't even know how to start with.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Really, Janet, Well.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
It's outside of the remit of this program. Steve to
be able to give you advice on that. But what
I could say to you is I would gather all
of the trust documents, including all of the figures that
you've got from the accountant, and then I would sit
down with the lawyer and I would say, this is
what we need to establish. Could you give me some
idea of your fees that you were charged to establish
(23:03):
that position for me? Please? And that way you're giving
them full documentation and you've got an idea of what
the fee is going to be.
Speaker 6 (23:15):
Because it's kind of interesting of that when one person
died and everything that they have kind of almost go
to the other partner or the husband or.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Wife's because the property I would expect.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Yeah, and that trust. Then it's interesting how, as you say,
it just starts to get gob or doesn't it and
then you've got to be on your toes how quick
you actually look at it.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
You can't just try to chain on us.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
The reason we're talking about it, actually, Steve, is because
I don't think people realize that. And we might not
have a wealth tax here, but if you are in
a situation where you need to go into age care,
the state will grab a lot of that will make
you pay for a lot of your own care for
however long it takes, could be a year, two, three,
or four whatever.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
And in the flip side here, I am a fifty
three with an eighteen year old daughter where I run
my own business. I've got my house and the trust,
and you already got me thinking should I be starting
to give this already?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
That is I mean, that is an interesting question because
fifty three, I mean, you'd like to think that you're
well ahead of the game, aren't you. But Janet, what
are your comments on that?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
So my clients are that is God on you for
having a trust if you own business, because you're clearly
trying to, you know, make sure that the assets are
available for your family the asset protection purposes. It's quite
legitimate setting the trust up in that regard and whilst
whilst the social worlfare people can indeed go back forever
(24:45):
and ever. I wonder whether they do actually do that
when they look back? Do they look back forty years,
thirty years? I mean, let's assume that you need a
Resturan subsidy. Let's say eighty five. You know, arey really
going to go back thirty years? Yeah? Yeah, twenty eight years,
thirty years? Are they going to go back all that?
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Fas?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I don't, I don't know, and who knows what the
law is going to be.
Speaker 6 (25:08):
Then there's the character because we need to do these trusts.
The law changes, so the reason for the trust or
that doesn't exist.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Anymore, yes, and and or reasons change. I have many
trust clients just like you, Steve, who are in business
and then they've got out of business and they've got
that trust for other purposes.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Hey, thanks for you course, Steve, you got it. It's
a fascinating area of It's a fascinating part of the law,
isn't it when it comes to trusts and wealth and
all that age care and all that. Let's go to
where are we up to, Joan?
Speaker 7 (25:44):
Hello, Yes, good evening. I've had a trust I took
it out my forties, and originally it was my late
father's well a trust from him that I took my
own out for protection. I haven't all that is left
(26:08):
in that trust now is.
Speaker 8 (26:12):
That the house.
Speaker 7 (26:13):
That's all that's in there, And it's just been ticking
over and it's just at the solicitors. And now that
I'm getting it, you know, mid seventies nearly, I'm starting
to wonder if that trust is still valid. And I'm
hearing so many conflicting opinions on this, and I know
(26:38):
I have to get back to the risk to see
but just Jenna, do you know anything whether that's protected
when it was taken out thirty five years ago?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
So of course when we when we set up trusts,
we have the law says you get all of these
benefits when you set up this trust, for example asset protection. However,
you've got to do certain things, and one of the
things is to regularly review affairs. So I'd like to
think that in the last thirty odd years have been
(27:11):
regularly reviewed. And I would talk to a solicit about that,
because there's likely to be documentation around when the trust
was set up and what was put into the trust.
What's happened after that? Well, we don't know, do we.
I mean, maybe there is documentation. Maybe the trustees have
been having annual trustee meetings that have been documenting things.
(27:32):
You'd really need to do some re some research about that.
And then let's let's assume the worst that that things
that things are not well, or even actually actually let's
not make that assumption. My question to you would be
why run to trust? There's two lots of compliance work
there that needs to be done, and two lots of.
Speaker 7 (27:55):
The late my late Savers one it got turned over
to me because I was the sole benefit free of.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Are you saying it got resettled to your trust?
Speaker 7 (28:06):
Is that what you're Yeah, yeah, yes, after the dide
that was that was five years ago.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
So I've misunderstood what you said, so I probably have.
We're talking about one trust, your trust that you've not
done any administration work whatsoever for years and years. Is
that correct?
Speaker 7 (28:24):
Yes, it's set there. There's be an administration work when
from one house to another.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Yes, and your trustees your trustees are you having meetings
with Is there an independent trustee?
Speaker 6 (28:39):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (28:40):
Well, the actual trust is in the name of the solicitors, right.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
And they're calling for their and your trust meetings each
year and documenting.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
All of that.
Speaker 7 (28:49):
No, no, they don't know. And I've only just been
you're starting to think about this, right.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Well, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
It's interesting that you bring that up, because this is
one of the major mistakes that occur in relation to
trust is not not doing the uh, you know, the
actual running of the trust, how it should how it
should be run each year. Is not actually doing that.
And and we see that a lot with independent with
(29:19):
people that don't have independent trustees on their trust, on
their trustee board, or people that do have an independent trustee,
but the independent trustee really is lacking the time or
the expertise to actually truly do the work that is needed.
And that is one of the reasons why a lot
of independent trustees when the new Trust Act came in
(29:39):
and got out of the business entirely of running trusts
used to be a favor that solicits and accountants diod
didn't a tempt to, you know, let's be your trustee
for the client, and then that was that was the
end of it. But now there's work to be done
each year, and indeed it needs to be done, and
I think rightfully. So a lot of accountants and lawyers
are seeing that that's not their main business and that
(30:01):
there's they're stepping away from that and allowing administrators. Do
I say, it's such as you see family to do
the work.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Thank you, Thanks for you call, Joan. I really appreciate it.
We'll be back in just a moment. It's twenty minutes
to six news talks. He'd been this news talk? Is
it be indeed?
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Paul?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Hello?
Speaker 9 (30:23):
Yes, hello, I'm not one of those wealthy people all
wealthy persons. My godfather left me forty s few thousand dollars.
My father left me ten and that's it. I got
no assets. I've got two thousand dollars car and that's it.
You know, I rent Life's nice.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I would suggest life's simple in that respect. Then you
have to worry about it.
Speaker 9 (30:45):
So I can When when do I apply for the
twenty nine thousand dollars three?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
No, it doesn't. It's not at play for you because
your assets aren't sufficient that the state will make you
contribute to any of your aged care. Isn't that right, Janet?
Speaker 3 (30:59):
That's correct?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yep, so you're okay, Paul, so.
Speaker 9 (31:03):
Much you'll just well, I've gotten.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Enjoy yourself. Enjoy yourself. That was well, there is an
easy question actually that actually, that was one of the
questions I wanted to dig into, which I don't think
we have time. Is like a trust's only for people
who've got a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Used to be that used to be the promms of
the rich and famous, but certainly not anymore.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
That's the question as to how much money do you
need before you have to go? I think I need
to start looking at whether I have a trust or
not because some people might. A lot of people say,
oh I don't have enough money. That's something for just
the rich and famous. But what's rich I guess.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
And if you're if you're in business, can you afford
to lose what you do have? And do you need
to protect it for yourself and your family? Do you
want to pass anything on to your children?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
That's that's a big one, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
All right, Steven, Hello, and I'm sorry this button's not working.
I'll try again. Stephen.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Hello, there you go it, good afternoon. I'll share some
experience so I had with an elderly couple where they
wanted to look for the WINS subsidies, and when we
approach or when I approached WINS, they would wanted to
see the trust deed in all the minutes pertaining to
(32:24):
that trust, which was set up in the mid sixties.
So that was a lot of documentation because we're looking,
we're talking. I did this work about five years ago,
and indeed, that's one.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Of the reasons why if I'm an independent trustee of
a trust, I insist on keeping all of the documents.
I don't mind clients having copies of them, but I
insist on keeping them because they're under their under lock
and key, and if a client needs the later on,
then I've got them. The other thing that they do
is this a client leaves our leaves leaves us, and
(32:58):
so I don't want you. And was an independent trustee.
Despite the fact that I don't have to do this,
I always keep copies of every document I've had, and
it amazures me the amount of times that people come
back to me years later and said, you're the only
person we can come to. I don't suppase you've got
a copy of that.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Have you.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Now? I gained the opinion that the twenty seven thousand dollars,
which couples were able to joint the gift to their
trust annually. If that that was purely forked under the gift,
what do they call it the gift due from the
legislation historic gifts? Yeah, which was managed by the that's correct. Yes,
(33:39):
if you could may pay more, yeah, but what what
what the legal and the accountants would recommend to those
that had trust, was it give up to that each
year and over a period of time, that debt will
be forgiven.
Speaker 8 (33:55):
By the by the couple.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Now, what the I found out that Wins were doing
was they wrote their own manual. They they weren't governed
by and they are not governed by that gift to
the Act. And their manual stated that it was I
think the figure was thirteen and a half thousand dollars
and they.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
All thousand per person in a couple, or it's twenty
seven thousand individual if you're not in a couple. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
But if the trust was forgiven twenty seven thousand dollars
in a year, the way I understood when they explained
it to me, they would say that the trust assets
had been had been reduced in excess of thirteen and
a half thousand dollars a year, and they would.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Yes, deprivation, deprivation, deprivation. It was twenty seven thousand per person.
Then we had a change in the regime, Okay, and
then it became twenty seven thousand between the couple.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, and it's and the thing is that twenty seven
thousand dollars standard was reached in nine and eighty four,
and it's worth you know, if we were judging twenty
seven thousand dollars of today's money back then, it probably Yeah,
it's a pretty iniquitous, isn't it. Anyway, Look, actually just
got a quick question before we take a break, we'll
try and squeeze another call. I'm a widower. I'm sorry,
(35:18):
I'm a widow. I'm single, not in a relationship, but
one child. I don't have a trust. I have cancer.
I'll die before I need rest time care. Do I
need a trust before I die? Or should I let
my lawyer set up a trust once I'm gone. I mean,
these are difficult to give specific advice on, but some guidance, Jane.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
And you can't. So what I think ultimately that caller
is trying to do is to protect assets for her
child when she's has or her child when they're gone. Yeah,
and a trust can indeed be set up via a will.
So as long as the assets are still there, that's fine.
But if there's going to be care that's needed, then
they could well be called upon to be to be
(35:57):
making contributions to that towards the cost of their care.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
There's not much that they could be done really, I
mean in terms of the effic sever trust you can
in terms of just the disposition of those assets once
you've passed away. The will can actually look after that came.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Absolutely it can and it could set up. I've got
a lot of clients where they've set up trusts now
and then somewhere there are trust set up via wolves now.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Okay, by the way, Janet, I haven't really given your
contact details, but if people want to contact you professionally,
then how do they do that?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
So they can get hold of us by phone or
they can get hold of us via our website which
is New Zealand Family Trust Services.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, and by the way, Janet also is our own website,
Janet zoccoa dot com but spelling at Zuchoa is an
interesting one.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
X U C.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Coo A Janet zco dot com will be back in
just a moment. It's eleven minutes to say, right, welcome back. Gosh,
time flies so quickly when we're talking trusts with JANETZCOA.
We've got time to squeeze on one more call. I'm
sorry if we haven't managed to get to your calls.
But Janet will be back, won't you.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Janet A certain will Tim, and they can always contact
me their New Zealand Family Trust Service.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
Yeap.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Indeed, John, Hello, oh sorry there you are? John?
Speaker 8 (37:12):
Hello, Yeah, Hi, Hi Tim and Jeannett. Thank you for team.
It's call hey. I. In nineteen ninety I talked to
my accounts and about either setting up a trust or
a LAQC. And I think actually he was the one
who proposed them to me. I didn't know much about them,
and so I went with a la QC, which obviously
(37:33):
turned into a look through company. Is this a discussion
that you can have on that space or is it
not part of your remit?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Well, we look at ELTI season shares that are held
there and money that flows through a course to trusts.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
Yep.
Speaker 8 (37:50):
Look, I've found it really successful, you know, for the
time period I've had it, and I initially set it
up for tax management, you know, because of its nature.
And now I think I did ask the question when
I have kids, can I then utilize that because obviously
(38:10):
it's a company and transfer it through to transfer the
transfer the ownership through to the to to the kids
through the director's approach? Would that be that through the shareholding?
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Think? I think you mean through the shareholding. And look,
you can transfer shares of course to whomever you wish,
well within reson, I must say, within reason. But that
can cause tax implications, and so it's really important that
you check that with your accountants to see if any
tax implications are going to advise through doing that?
Speaker 8 (38:49):
Okay, all right, No, it's good advice. Anything else you
would add?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
So could you say that to me?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Anything else you would add? Janetor it was just anything else?
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Definitely? Well, I can tell you that the shareholding, Sure
it didn't he change. I think it changed during COVID.
But take take good advice. Make sure because you need
to understand where your tax position is of the company.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Now.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
You need to understand if you make the change, what
the tax implications will be and what the tax will
be thereafter, so you know it's important to know that.
And remember when you're changing shareholding, you are providing people
with shares with ownership of your company, so shareholders have
those strong rights.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Okay, thanks John, Actually we do have time for h
one quick Well, I'm hoping. I'm not sure if this
is a quick text. There's one that's saying someone's uh
this text. His sister and him inherited a few million
dollars from their mother. There were no gifts, there are
no gift duties in using on. He used a deed
of gift to give all of his share of the
money to his three children. One of the clauses was
that they maintain his lifestyle as it was when the
(39:55):
deed was written. Is that going to impact his asset
poll when it comes to moving into age care? I
would have thought yes, I would have thought, so he's
got some value.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Well, it's got value and Minister of Social Welfare can
see a contract there. He's given his assets away. So
that's deprivation, isn't it? And in return for is it
really an out like gift?
Speaker 7 (40:20):
To know?
Speaker 3 (40:21):
It's more more?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Well, I'm giving you all my money, but you have
to pay for my life.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
It's more like a conditional contract rather than that like.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Guests, it's problematic. It would be there'd be one way
of quickly answering, get some advice.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Almost your social welfare certainly, and to say where's all
the money and assets gone?
Speaker 2 (40:37):
There's going to be some questions to get to my kids.
Oh yes, and well I guess you know. It gets
back to one of the texts. You know, you've got
to be upfront with these things because you don't want
them to have to start digging. Go and be upfront
and yeah, honesty. And if you need to get advice
on your trusts and Janet's a car and New Zealand
Family Trust Services, just look her up. Thanks Janet. That
time has absolutely zipped by.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Thank you for having me term and thank you to
our listeners as well.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Lovely to see you.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
If you want to check out any of the hours,
go and check out our podcast on News Talk SEDB.
Sunday at six is next and we've got Matt Doocy's
joining us on health next week and look forward to
chatting with Matt. So thanks my producer Tyrek.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
At you soon for more from the Weekend Collective Listen
live to news talks edb weekends from three pm, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks ABE.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
And welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective or welcome
And if you've just joined us, I'm Tim Beverage. And
by the way, if you miss any of the hours
after six o'clock, just go and check out our podcast
on the look for the Weekend Collective on News Talks
dB or on iHeartRadio. But if you have just joined us,
I to be inviting your your calls and your participation
(01:00):
on eight hundred eighty ten eighty or text nine nine two.
And for this hour it is Smart Money and you
know as you know with Smart Money, where we explore
a range of range of questions around just looking after
your wealth and getting it and gaining it and keeping it.
But of course as you grow older it can be
quite expensive, much more expensive than people realize. So when
(01:23):
you were a loved one either decides to move or
decides always actually forced to sometimes many times because of health,
to move into aged care or hospital care, the Ministry
of Social Development can quickly swoop in to flip through
all your finances and make you pay for it all
until were maybe there's not a hell of a lot
of it left and any assets gifted funds, trusts, even
(01:47):
living rent free, it's all looked at and impacts of
chances of government subsidized care. So where do trusts come
into this, and how exactly do trust trusts and your
assets fit into aged care? And if you've been sort
of responsible making decisions around the sort of thing, were
you shocked to learn about it when you when yourself
(02:09):
are a loved one and went through this whole process.
We want to hear from you on eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two anyway to
discuss this. Janet's Acoa is managing director for New Zealand
Family Trusts Services Limited, And I mean it's not too
soon to say she's a regular, but she's becoming such
because I think we've had her on a few times.
And so if you have any questions for Janet generally,
(02:33):
and I've given this warning sometimes that we have guessed
that people sit back and all of a sudden you're
flooding at the end and want to talk to him.
We've run out of time. So if you've got any
questions for Janet, then give us a call. Eight hundred
eighty ten eighty. But Janet, Hello, how are you?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Hello? Tim? Thank you for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thanks for coming in. Have you had a bit of
a break you had had some time off?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, I had a couple of couple of weeks off
and it was the first time I've had a couple
of weeks off over Christmas in many years. Really enjoyed
some some playing with my new pet. Excellent.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Did you you didn't travel overseas anywhere exotically?
Speaker 4 (03:07):
I did.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
The last thing I wanted was get on a plane
at Christmas. Your on planes on a regular basis, and
it's no treat to go away at Christmas. As of
other people, I'd sooner do that in the year.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough, Hey, because we touched on.
The reason we're talking about this is because it has
popped up briefly in our conversations with just around the
whole age care and subsidies for because the observation that
many people have made is that you know, you might
save a lot for your retirement, but if you have
to spend a year or two in aged care, either
(03:39):
with you or your partner, that money can quickly get
whittled away. Unless you have very very early on squirreled it,
squirreled it away and a trust? What if what can
you tell us about.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Well your comment where you say where you said when
you opened the show up. Some people might have been
quite surprised when they come to apply for a rest
home that the government is inquiring what they've got and
if they've got a trust. That's sort of thing. I'm
amazed that there are store people out there that aren't
aware or more conscious of the rules around that, because
historically that was the position. We used to put all
(04:14):
of our assets into a trust, forgive all the debt
that the trust owed us because we didn't we usually
didn't give the assets to the trust. Where we sold
the assets to the trust, we got a debt back,
and then we forget progressively each year they gave so
much money off that debt. Use it twenty seven thousand.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
That was the rule that you used to get for duty.
You could get twenty seven year which back forty thirty.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Years ago, one cent over twenty seven thousand, and you
were paying gift duty at a sliding rate of five
to twenty five percent. So everybody, everybody when they when
they sold their assets to trust and got a debt
back fore gave twenty seven thousand dollars of this debt
each year. And then there was a review by the
government in two thousand and nine and they said, well,
we're going to have a look at this whole gifting regime.
(05:01):
And when they did that, they they they've identified that
the objectives of the regime was really to protect the
tax base against tax avoidance, to ensure the creditors were protected,
and to really maintain the integrity of resisting social assistance policies.
(05:21):
They also found some other things. They found out that
there was an ample legislation around at that time to
protect creditors, and that very little gift duty was ever
collected because, as you could imagine.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Everyone was following the rule.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Absolutely they were following the rules and they didn't want
to so let's get rid of it. Absolutely so, and
they found that the cost of actually administering this system
far outweighed the actual revenue collected. So in October twenty
eleven they decided that going forward, for the disposition of
property and I'm talking all property and not just real estate,
(05:53):
no more do you have to pay gift duty.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
And because it was covered by the law where if
you had set up a trust to avoid paying your creditors,
they'd look through the trust anyway.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
That's right. So there was lots of ad protections around
for creditors just.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Before How long was? How long ago was the twenty
seven thousand a year? Well decided that because twenty seven
thousand bucks a year in nineteen eighty five absolutely is
a hell of a lot more money than twenty seven
thousand bucks now. And yet it still is a magic
figure somewhere, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yes, it is, it is. But that's where it gets interesting.
So it was October twenty eleven that you're talking about.
That's when the rules changed, and that's where that's where
the Ministry of Social Welfare and the common Law got involved.
Because now when you want to get a restaurum subsidy,
there's three tests that have to be done. First off,
as you would expect, there's a needs assessment and a
(06:45):
doctor has to sign off on that that you actually
need care. Then there's what I call the means assessment,
and that's all about assets. And as you rightfully said, before,
Ministry Social Warfare they look at the assets like cash
and savings and life insurance policies that might have values
on them, boats, investment properties, loans owing to that person
(07:07):
that's important, certain things are excluded like household items. And
then assuming that you pass that means assessment, then you
are in the final test regime and you are looking
at income and an income assessment will be done. And
then any forms of income such as superannuation and dividends
(07:29):
and bonds and term deposits, rents from investment properties, dividends
maybe from lookthrough companies that you might own shares and
where you investment properties are all of that is taken
into account. And once all those tests are done, well,
once the last test is done, because you have to
keep that these are progressive hurdles. Once the last test
(07:50):
is done, then Minister Social Welfare say well, this is
how much money you generally have and will pay this
much and you'll pay that much. And as you could imagine,
these rules give rise to lots of potential manipulations. For example,
somebody might put all of their assets in the trust
(08:10):
forgive all the debt and then say well I've got
no assets and no income other than supernuation, and I'm
all your tests.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
So therefore you're going to pay for my age or.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
There might be a situation where they decide that they're
going to give away all of the most of their
assets to their children before they even need need to subsisdy,
a bit of a dangerous thing to do. Or they
might say I'll loan money out to all of my
friends and family and then I've got nothing. So therefore,
so you know.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
The government, there's a big butt coming here, isn't there?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
So the big butt is that when you're going through
all of these tests, the Ministry of soci'll work for
quite clever people and they they look back, so right
now the.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Fact of a legitimately set up trust doesn't do it
for them, does it?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
No, it can be, it can be quite legitimate. There's
there's what they call permissible wealth limits. So I think
it's for single person, both people in care a couple,
you're allowed about two hundred and ninety one odd thousand,
I think.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So that's what they'll leave you with. They'll make you
pay for your own health care at a certain rate
until it's down to that, and then they'll leave you alone.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Well, and then they might step in and then But
for couples where one person's care and the other remains
remains in the family home. I think you can either
claim the two ninety one that's your permissile wealth and
will include all assets including the home, or you can
claim about one hundred and fifty nine, which excludes the
home and excludes the car.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
These rules are it's actually I think it's one hundred
and something ninety eight.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yeah, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
But you're allowed to keep your house. But as soon
as that house is sold because that partner bestenly, I mean,
we've seen this in our family as well, where you know,
there's one person, one person's gone into he care and
then the other one is still living in the house
and so they don't count the house. But the amount
of money you're allowed to have in cash and bank
is a lot less. And then as soon as you
sell the house, they start whit that a way as well.
(10:06):
So that's pretty bloody growthless.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
So those areule sound complicated, right, but it gets even
more conflicted because you are actually allowed to do some gifting.
So remember we're talking about forgiving debt and gifting. You
are actually allowed to gift up to eight thousand per
per anum within five years of making the application, and
gifts made prior to that five years from making that
(10:31):
application can be up to twenty seven thousand. But that's
where the common law comes in. Because the call I
said to you at the beginning, it was twenty seven
thousand a couple that you were so per person, that
was allowed twenty seven thousand per person you were allowed
to forgive debt by well under new rules, okay, under
the rules under the common law is twenty seven thousand
(10:52):
per couple. So that's thirty and a half thousand.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
So what's the eight thousand gifting with the AIG. This
is complicated.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It's really complicated, right, So I can't stress enough. First
all documentation must be kept for gifting for sure. And secondly,
get some advice. We do a lot of the views
of these applications in consultation with solicitors and accountants with
a lot of them, because it's really complicated. The devil
is in the detail.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
But actually, if you but if you do want to say,
if you're an older couple who want to pass things
to your children, well, if you're both in care, that
you're going to be left with two hundred and ninety
ninety one thousand, which is a shock for a lot
of people. So a lot of people would think, oh, look,
you know we've got we've got a house that's mortgage free,
(11:41):
and when we sell it, you know, we when we
pass away, we'll be able to pass that all to
our kids. But if they are going to hospital care,
it can be several thousand dollars a week.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Fifteen hundred dollars is pretty standard for ordinary every day care. Yeah,
let's say that I've got a friend who's got both
parents in care. It's horrendous.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
It's horrendous, more a lot, it's horrendous. I don't think
there'll be much inheritance left. No, no, I really don't.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So the one it's funny, so that what you should do,
if you are in that situation should at least gift
as much as you can. Like that, you said, there's
that five year period where you can give eight thousand
a year. Yes, you must well do that, but.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
You may as well. But it's not a lot, is it. No,
that's not a lot. And we're looking today at asset values.
You know, an average home in Auckland has got to
be I actually don't know what the average value of
houses in Auckland, but it's got to be sevent fifty plus,
isn't It's good?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I think it's back up to a million. Is the
average the medium price in Auckland? I think. I think
it was something I saw.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
So that's going to take a lot of gifting, isn't
it if a single person at twenty seven thousand a
year or if you're a couple thirty and a half
thousand a year.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
So just for people who are listening, it's one point
two million. Apparently by the way, has just done that.
But it does sound like we've given a lot of
a lot of information there. But basically, when it comes
to you, if you are getting older, if you haven't
set up a trust well in advance with a regular
(13:10):
gifting regime, it doesn't matter if that trust is all
valid and everything. The Ministry of Social Development will look
through it and will use a lot of that money
if they think you've given it away too quickly to
the trust.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Because it can be deemed to be deprivation of assets.
And sometimes when you're right on the cusp, you do
what's known as a trust reversal, so you you take
the house out of the trust and you can still
manage things at that at that rate.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So the need if I just get the straight so
if you're a couple, you might have sent it. How
far back do the Ministry of Social Development go? Because
at twenty seven thousand dollars a year, if you set
the trust up twenty years in advance, that's still only
five hundred and forty dollars.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I'm getting it. So mind you, the house might have
been less than five hundred back twenty odd years ago,
especially if we're in a major city in New Zealand.
They by law, I believe they can go back as
far as they like. Would they do that? I actually
don't know where. I do think is the danger is
(14:15):
that when the gifting regime was abolished, a lot of
people was like, this is fantastic. We no longer have
to do gifting each year. We no longer have to
pay our accountants and lawyers and trust administers to all
of that. Let's just lump some gift if youthink yeah, yeah,
there was a problem because those rules are retrospective, so
they'll look back and if anything was gifted that wasn't
meant to be gifted and I've just given you the
(14:37):
limits already, they will that Ministry of Social Welfare will
add that back into a notional balance sheet and say, well,
you've deprived yourself of all of that.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Here's the thing that's a bit ropey. So when so
the magic figure is twenty seven thousand dollars a year
and that was established in nineteen eighty four, and that
hasn't This is where I think the Ministry of Selfial
Development is well out of order, because twenty seven thousand
bucks a year nine eighty four in today's terms is
this is a quick, quick calculation done through AI basically
(15:09):
depending on what interest rate you take into account. But
the purchasing power back in nine eighty four, twenty seven
thousand dollars is the equivalent of between eighty four and
ninety six thousand dollars these days. So they are allowing
people very little room when it comes to clawing back
and that your money.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
And that goes back to politics, doesn't it and policies
that are set. I should everybody be entitled to rest
time care irrespective of the value of their wealth. Can
New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Wow, that's it, That's why they take every cent they
can get.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Absolutely, these are really these are nobly issues that really
infuse feeling in people.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Well, that's the irony is is I mean, the Greens
go on about a wealth tax and all these things
are trying to get wealth back. It's just like, now
just wait until you go to hospital care or aged care.
Don't worry. The government are going to get that money.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
Well they basically will, weren't they. How many people can
people escape it through a trust? I don't mean escape it,
that's the wrong language. But okay, escape it.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That's I mean, because it implies that you're setting up
the trust for the wrong purpose, doesn't it. So you
can't use the word to escape it. So Janet's not
going to use it. How can we avoid I can't
even say avoid it there?
Speaker 3 (16:24):
There are there are trust clients out there that that
do fit the vigime all and can indeed get a
Western subsidy. What I would say is that the devil
again is most certainly in the detail, and you need
to get really good advice on it, especially when you're
handling those films. Get the advice beforehand, make sure you
(16:47):
talk to the people who truly understand what they're doing there.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Actually, the other thing to be fair on this stuff
is I think that you know, not everyone in the
government departments is out to be horrible. I think if
you are, the worst thing you can be is non transparent.
If you are up front with things, that's the best
way of heading in fact, because it is so difficult
to manage. Because you can get advice from the ministry
(17:12):
about this, Yes you can, and it's to be honest.
It's not going to be escaped by being dishonest. You
are better to get advice from them as well, and
they will tell you what you can do.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
And I think it's important to keep in mind that
I think it's about five percent of people going to
West Home Care in your zune, about five percent, And
when you.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Always assumed it was everyone.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
And when you where you are, and I'm talking about
westtern care, where you really can no longer.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Cope with yourself.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
You can't look after yourself. It's not like you're buying
something in a nice retirement but it's a nice apartment
that sort of thing, and going there to have lots
of friends and lots of outings, which is what I
would be doing. But for those people that have to
go into West hon Care because they're a longer care
for themselves, I think it's about five percent of our population.
And of that, I think the average lifespan is about
(18:04):
one point seven one point eight years, so it's not
very long. But a fifteen hundred and two grand a week,
it still mounts up, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Per person?
Speaker 6 (18:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, so why would if? It's almost seems that having
a trust for the purpose of defeating that side of
things is really I'm not going to say waste of time,
but it's very unlikely to succeed, I guess, isn't it
unless you've done unless you've thought twenty or thirty years ahead.
(18:35):
Would that be right?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Well, people, I'm sure nobody sets up a trust to
defeat anything. I'm sure they don't.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
You have Well, I know you have to say that anyway,
I'm positive for that. I love the way you got
through that with a straight face. But anyways, Carrier, But
I mean no, But people do set up trust to
protect their assets.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
From creditors, for relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Claims, yes, and that's legit.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Those are all legitimate purpose, sometimes for tax tax red's okay,
which is quite legitimate, and sometimes for inhergence purposes. So
what I mean by that is I was just having conversation. Actually,
with weather friend and she was explaining to me that
her family, you know, they require certain documents to be signed,
and that's because what they're trying to do is there's
(19:23):
a waterfall of trust involved and they're trying to protect
the wealth as it comes down within a family group.
So that's via trust.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
And often trust gets set up in a will. Even
you might sit by virtue of that mechanism because you
want to be clear about who's getting what.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And we are and it can it did occur. All
I say when people use that mechanism is let's hope
that the asset still exists to set up the trust
at that point.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Indeed, one of the reasons why I like the trust
set up before the will is really.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Well, it's complicated. I mean, the funny thing is trusts
in a way, the concept of a trust is so simple.
It's just it in terms of setting it up, making
them work the way you want them to work is
something that needs.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Well for me, they're intellectually challenging and I really enjoyed them.
That's why this is my arena that I've chosen to
spend my career in.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Right, we'd love your cause. If you've got any questions
for Janet. We've started off talking about the rest home subsidies,
just because it is an issue where people think I've
got a trust I don't need to worry about it. Well,
not necessarily eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. We also
are going to have a look into things that mistakes
that can occur with trusts as well. I imagine some
of those mistakes might just be the assumptions on how
(20:35):
they're going to protect whatever you are looking to protect.
It is gosh, we've talked. We've talked quite a lot.
We've been taken any cause, I better go to the break.
We'll be back with your calls straight after this. It's
twenty seven past five News Talks that'd be We're with
Janet Zucca, Managing direction for New Zealand Family Trust Services Limited,
tom ad Age Care and Trusts. Steve, Hello, Yeah, Hi,
(20:55):
how are you good? Thanks?
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Yeah, I was just listening. I'm finding it such an
interesting conversation. Makes You're on routes to see my mother
who's in memory care, and like a lot of people,
you know, when you look at the cost of about
twitter and thirteen dollars a day memory care, suddenly Het
your calculator out and it's about sixty five thousand to
seventy thousand dollars a year for care. And then you know,
(21:20):
I look at this whole thing and at the moment,
I'm really struggling. We're trying to find someone who knows
the system really, really well, because you talk to the accountants,
you talk to the lawyer, you look at the family trust,
and I've had to go back to the lawyer who's
actually gone and got the family trust back from nineteen
ninety eight, and every time you talk to then suddenly
(21:41):
spend another couple of thousand there, another couple of thousand there.
So what I ended up doing about eighteen months ago
is selling the house of mum me and she went
into memory care because my father passed lay five years ago.
And I'm lucky enough to be in a position where
the trust that has the funds is currently paying what
(22:02):
I call the top up of the pension to paper
i'm's care. And then when I talk to the accountant,
my mother apparently introduced four hundred thousand dollars into the
trust in nineteen ninety eight, and now it's the debt
apparently was forgiven then. But I'm getting contracted information from
(22:23):
the lawyer which are totally different from the accountants about
when to actually apply and if there's any chance to
apply at all, because the trust obviously has got some
good amount of funds on it. So it's actually so confusing.
I don't even know how to start with.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Really, Janet, Well.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
It's outside of the remit of this program. Steve to
be able to give you advice on that. But what
I could say to you is I would gather all
of the trust documents, including all of the figures that
you've got from the accountant, and then I would sit
down with the lawyer and I would say, this is
what we need to establish. Could you give me some
idea of your fees that you were charged to establish
(23:03):
that position for me? Please? And that way you're giving
them full documentation and you've got an idea of what
the fee is going to be.
Speaker 6 (23:15):
Because it's kind of interesting of that when one person
died and everything that they have kind of almost go
to the other partner or the husband or.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Wife's because the property I would expect.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Yeah, and that trust. Then it's interesting how, as you say,
it just starts to get gob or doesn't it and
then you've got to be on your toes how quick
you actually look at it.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
You can't just try to chain on us.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
The reason we're talking about it, actually, Steve, is because
I don't think people realize that. And we might not
have a wealth tax here, but if you are in
a situation where you need to go into age care,
the state will grab a lot of that will make
you pay for a lot of your own care for
however long it takes, could be a year, two, three,
or four whatever.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
And in the flip side here, I am a fifty
three with an eighteen year old daughter where I run
my own business. I've got my house and the trust,
and you already got me thinking should I be starting
to give this already?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
That is I mean, that is an interesting question because
fifty three, I mean, you'd like to think that you're
well ahead of the game, aren't you. But Janet, what
are your comments on that?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
So my clients are that is God on you for
having a trust if you own business, because you're clearly
trying to, you know, make sure that the assets are
available for your family the asset protection purposes. It's quite
legitimate setting the trust up in that regard and whilst
whilst the social worlfare people can indeed go back forever
(24:45):
and ever. I wonder whether they do actually do that
when they look back? Do they look back forty years,
thirty years? I mean, let's assume that you need a
Resturan subsidy. Let's say eighty five. You know, arey really
going to go back thirty years? Yeah? Yeah, twenty eight years,
thirty years? Are they going to go back all that?
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Fas?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I don't, I don't know, and who knows what the
law is going to be.
Speaker 6 (25:08):
Then there's the character because we need to do these trusts.
The law changes, so the reason for the trust or
that doesn't exist.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Anymore, yes, and and or reasons change. I have many
trust clients just like you, Steve, who are in business
and then they've got out of business and they've got
that trust for other purposes.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Hey, thanks for you course, Steve, you got it. It's
a fascinating area of It's a fascinating part of the law,
isn't it when it comes to trusts and wealth and
all that age care and all that. Let's go to
where are we up to, Joan?
Speaker 7 (25:44):
Hello, Yes, good evening. I've had a trust I took
it out my forties, and originally it was my late
father's well a trust from him that I took my
own out for protection. I haven't all that is left
(26:08):
in that trust now is.
Speaker 8 (26:12):
That the house.
Speaker 7 (26:13):
That's all that's in there, And it's just been ticking
over and it's just at the solicitors. And now that
I'm getting it, you know, mid seventies nearly, I'm starting
to wonder if that trust is still valid. And I'm
hearing so many conflicting opinions on this, and I know
(26:38):
I have to get back to the risk to see
but just Jenna, do you know anything whether that's protected
when it was taken out thirty five years ago?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
So of course when we when we set up trusts,
we have the law says you get all of these
benefits when you set up this trust, for example asset protection. However,
you've got to do certain things, and one of the
things is to regularly review affairs. So I'd like to
think that in the last thirty odd years have been
(27:11):
regularly reviewed. And I would talk to a solicit about that,
because there's likely to be documentation around when the trust
was set up and what was put into the trust.
What's happened after that? Well, we don't know, do we.
I mean, maybe there is documentation. Maybe the trustees have
been having annual trustee meetings that have been documenting things.
(27:32):
You'd really need to do some re some research about that.
And then let's let's assume the worst that that things
that things are not well, or even actually actually let's
not make that assumption. My question to you would be
why run to trust? There's two lots of compliance work
there that needs to be done, and two lots of.
Speaker 7 (27:55):
The late my late Savers one it got turned over
to me because I was the sole benefit free of.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Are you saying it got resettled to your trust?
Speaker 7 (28:06):
Is that what you're Yeah, yeah, yes, after the dide
that was that was five years ago.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
So I've misunderstood what you said, so I probably have.
We're talking about one trust, your trust that you've not
done any administration work whatsoever for years and years. Is
that correct?
Speaker 7 (28:24):
Yes, it's set there. There's be an administration work when
from one house to another.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Yes, and your trustees your trustees are you having meetings
with Is there an independent trustee?
Speaker 6 (28:39):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (28:40):
Well, the actual trust is in the name of the solicitors, right.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
And they're calling for their and your trust meetings each
year and documenting.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
All of that.
Speaker 7 (28:49):
No, no, they don't know. And I've only just been
you're starting to think about this, right.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Well, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
It's interesting that you bring that up, because this is
one of the major mistakes that occur in relation to
trust is not not doing the uh, you know, the
actual running of the trust, how it should how it
should be run each year. Is not actually doing that.
And and we see that a lot with independent with
(29:19):
people that don't have independent trustees on their trust, on
their trustee board, or people that do have an independent trustee,
but the independent trustee really is lacking the time or
the expertise to actually truly do the work that is needed.
And that is one of the reasons why a lot
of independent trustees when the new Trust Act came in
(29:39):
and got out of the business entirely of running trusts
used to be a favor that solicits and accountants diod
didn't a tempt to, you know, let's be your trustee
for the client, and then that was that was the
end of it. But now there's work to be done
each year, and indeed it needs to be done, and
I think rightfully. So a lot of accountants and lawyers
are seeing that that's not their main business and that
(30:01):
there's they're stepping away from that and allowing administrators. Do
I say, it's such as you see family to do
the work.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Thank you, Thanks for you call, Joan. I really appreciate it.
We'll be back in just a moment. It's twenty minutes
to six news talks. He'd been this news talk? Is
it be indeed?
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Paul?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Hello?
Speaker 9 (30:23):
Yes, hello, I'm not one of those wealthy people all
wealthy persons. My godfather left me forty s few thousand dollars.
My father left me ten and that's it. I got
no assets. I've got two thousand dollars car and that's it.
You know, I rent Life's nice.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I would suggest life's simple in that respect. Then you
have to worry about it.
Speaker 9 (30:45):
So I can When when do I apply for the
twenty nine thousand dollars three?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
No, it doesn't. It's not at play for you because
your assets aren't sufficient that the state will make you
contribute to any of your aged care. Isn't that right, Janet?
Speaker 3 (30:59):
That's correct?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yep, so you're okay, Paul, so.
Speaker 9 (31:03):
Much you'll just well, I've gotten.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Enjoy yourself. Enjoy yourself. That was well, there is an
easy question actually that actually, that was one of the
questions I wanted to dig into, which I don't think
we have time. Is like a trust's only for people
who've got a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Used to be that used to be the promms of
the rich and famous, but certainly not anymore.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
That's the question as to how much money do you
need before you have to go? I think I need
to start looking at whether I have a trust or
not because some people might. A lot of people say,
oh I don't have enough money. That's something for just
the rich and famous. But what's rich I guess.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
And if you're if you're in business, can you afford
to lose what you do have? And do you need
to protect it for yourself and your family? Do you
want to pass anything on to your children?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
That's that's a big one, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
All right, Steven, Hello, and I'm sorry this button's not working.
I'll try again. Stephen.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Hello, there you go it, good afternoon. I'll share some
experience so I had with an elderly couple where they
wanted to look for the WINS subsidies, and when we
approach or when I approached WINS, they would wanted to
see the trust deed in all the minutes pertaining to
(32:24):
that trust, which was set up in the mid sixties.
So that was a lot of documentation because we're looking,
we're talking. I did this work about five years ago,
and indeed, that's one.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Of the reasons why if I'm an independent trustee of
a trust, I insist on keeping all of the documents.
I don't mind clients having copies of them, but I
insist on keeping them because they're under their under lock
and key, and if a client needs the later on,
then I've got them. The other thing that they do
is this a client leaves our leaves leaves us, and
(32:58):
so I don't want you. And was an independent trustee.
Despite the fact that I don't have to do this,
I always keep copies of every document I've had, and
it amazures me the amount of times that people come
back to me years later and said, you're the only
person we can come to. I don't suppase you've got
a copy of that.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Have you.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Now? I gained the opinion that the twenty seven thousand dollars,
which couples were able to joint the gift to their
trust annually. If that that was purely forked under the gift,
what do they call it the gift due from the
legislation historic gifts? Yeah, which was managed by the that's correct. Yes,
(33:39):
if you could may pay more, yeah, but what what
what the legal and the accountants would recommend to those
that had trust, was it give up to that each
year and over a period of time, that debt will
be forgiven.
Speaker 8 (33:55):
By the by the couple.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Now, what the I found out that Wins were doing
was they wrote their own manual. They they weren't governed
by and they are not governed by that gift to
the Act. And their manual stated that it was I
think the figure was thirteen and a half thousand dollars
and they.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
All thousand per person in a couple, or it's twenty
seven thousand individual if you're not in a couple. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
But if the trust was forgiven twenty seven thousand dollars
in a year, the way I understood when they explained
it to me, they would say that the trust assets
had been had been reduced in excess of thirteen and
a half thousand dollars a year, and they would.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Yes, deprivation, deprivation, deprivation. It was twenty seven thousand per person.
Then we had a change in the regime, Okay, and
then it became twenty seven thousand between the couple.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, and it's and the thing is that twenty seven
thousand dollars standard was reached in nine and eighty four,
and it's worth you know, if we were judging twenty
seven thousand dollars of today's money back then, it probably Yeah,
it's a pretty iniquitous, isn't it. Anyway, Look, actually just
got a quick question before we take a break, we'll
try and squeeze another call. I'm a widower. I'm sorry,
(35:18):
I'm a widow. I'm single, not in a relationship, but
one child. I don't have a trust. I have cancer.
I'll die before I need rest time care. Do I
need a trust before I die? Or should I let
my lawyer set up a trust once I'm gone. I mean,
these are difficult to give specific advice on, but some guidance, Jane.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
And you can't. So what I think ultimately that caller
is trying to do is to protect assets for her
child when she's has or her child when they're gone. Yeah,
and a trust can indeed be set up via a will.
So as long as the assets are still there, that's fine.
But if there's going to be care that's needed, then
they could well be called upon to be to be
(35:57):
making contributions to that towards the cost of their care.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
There's not much that they could be done really, I
mean in terms of the effic sever trust you can
in terms of just the disposition of those assets once
you've passed away. The will can actually look after that came.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Absolutely it can and it could set up. I've got
a lot of clients where they've set up trusts now
and then somewhere there are trust set up via wolves now.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Okay, by the way, Janet, I haven't really given your
contact details, but if people want to contact you professionally,
then how do they do that?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
So they can get hold of us by phone or
they can get hold of us via our website which
is New Zealand Family Trust Services.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, and by the way, Janet also is our own website,
Janet zoccoa dot com but spelling at Zuchoa is an
interesting one.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
X U C.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Coo A Janet zco dot com will be back in
just a moment. It's eleven minutes to say, right, welcome back. Gosh,
time flies so quickly when we're talking trusts with JANETZCOA.
We've got time to squeeze on one more call. I'm
sorry if we haven't managed to get to your calls.
But Janet will be back, won't you.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Janet A certain will Tim, and they can always contact
me their New Zealand Family Trust Service.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
Yeap.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Indeed, John, Hello, oh sorry there you are? John?
Speaker 8 (37:12):
Hello, Yeah, Hi, Hi Tim and Jeannett. Thank you for team.
It's call hey. I. In nineteen ninety I talked to
my accounts and about either setting up a trust or
a LAQC. And I think actually he was the one
who proposed them to me. I didn't know much about them,
and so I went with a la QC, which obviously
(37:33):
turned into a look through company. Is this a discussion
that you can have on that space or is it
not part of your remit?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Well, we look at ELTI season shares that are held
there and money that flows through a course to trusts.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
Yep.
Speaker 8 (37:50):
Look, I've found it really successful, you know, for the
time period I've had it, and I initially set it
up for tax management, you know, because of its nature.
And now I think I did ask the question when
I have kids, can I then utilize that because obviously
(38:10):
it's a company and transfer it through to transfer the
transfer the ownership through to the to to the kids
through the director's approach? Would that be that through the shareholding?
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Think? I think you mean through the shareholding. And look,
you can transfer shares of course to whomever you wish,
well within reson, I must say, within reason. But that
can cause tax implications, and so it's really important that
you check that with your accountants to see if any
tax implications are going to advise through doing that?
Speaker 8 (38:49):
Okay, all right, No, it's good advice. Anything else you
would add?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
So could you say that to me?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Anything else you would add? Janetor it was just anything else?
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Definitely? Well, I can tell you that the shareholding, Sure
it didn't he change. I think it changed during COVID.
But take take good advice. Make sure because you need
to understand where your tax position is of the company.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Now.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
You need to understand if you make the change, what
the tax implications will be and what the tax will
be thereafter, so you know it's important to know that.
And remember when you're changing shareholding, you are providing people
with shares with ownership of your company, so shareholders have
those strong rights.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Okay, thanks John, Actually we do have time for h
one quick Well, I'm hoping. I'm not sure if this
is a quick text. There's one that's saying someone's uh
this text. His sister and him inherited a few million
dollars from their mother. There were no gifts, there are
no gift duties in using on. He used a deed
of gift to give all of his share of the
money to his three children. One of the clauses was
that they maintain his lifestyle as it was when the
(39:55):
deed was written. Is that going to impact his asset
poll when it comes to moving into age care? I
would have thought yes, I would have thought, so he's
got some value.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Well, it's got value and Minister of Social Welfare can
see a contract there. He's given his assets away. So
that's deprivation, isn't it? And in return for is it
really an out like gift?
Speaker 7 (40:20):
To know?
Speaker 3 (40:21):
It's more more?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Well, I'm giving you all my money, but you have
to pay for my life.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
It's more like a conditional contract rather than that like.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Guests, it's problematic. It would be there'd be one way
of quickly answering, get some advice.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Almost your social welfare certainly, and to say where's all
the money and assets gone?
Speaker 2 (40:37):
There's going to be some questions to get to my kids.
Oh yes, and well I guess you know. It gets
back to one of the texts. You know, you've got
to be upfront with these things because you don't want
them to have to start digging. Go and be upfront
and yeah, honesty. And if you need to get advice
on your trusts and Janet's a car and New Zealand
Family Trust Services, just look her up. Thanks Janet. That
time has absolutely zipped by.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Thank you for having me term and thank you to
our listeners as well.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Lovely to see you.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
If you want to check out any of the hours,
go and check out our podcast on News Talk SEDB.
Sunday at six is next and we've got Matt Doocy's
joining us on health next week and look forward to
chatting with Matt. So thanks my producer Tyrek.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
At you soon for more from the Weekend Collective Listen
live to news talks edb weekends from three pm, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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