Sir Graham Henry is honoured to be returning to the All Blacks' set-up, 15 years on from coaching them to a Rugby World Cup triumph.
He's agreed to be an independent selector on head coach Dave Rennie's panel with assistant coach Neil Barnes the other voice.
Former All Blacks coach John Hart joined D'Arcy to discuss further.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Wildergrave
from News Talk z'b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, welcome to the program. Now to jbh aka John Hart. John,
Welcome to the program. Hi Darcy, Nice to be on
your program and great to have you on board as well.
Interesting news today and we're going to cover off Sir
Graham Henry's engagement as an independent selector later on the piece,
but first in we've got to talk about this because
(00:34):
this is a fantastic story. A Hall of Fame for
the Blues after thirty years, it's probably over due, and
she's off and running from Friday.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Yep, big function, big luncheon on Friday at the Sky
City Entertainment Center. We've got eight hundred people attending, and
this lunch will be the announcement of the inaugural three
inductees into the Blues Hall of Fame, looking back over
the past thirty years, and we'll be a celebration of
blues of the Blues history over that time.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, it's probably it's been a long time to super aguy.
Actually you forget how long it's been around. For thirty years,
I like to shake away it on far too old
for this, So as far as the inductees, is this
going to be running on an annual basis every five years?
How are you going to put these people in? How
does that work?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Well, in fact, we've got two. We've got two categories.
One one Hall of Famers and that is limited to
players and coaches who meet certain criteria. And then there's
guardians who could be administrators, could be team management, could
be commercial partners who have made significant contributions. Now, the
(01:45):
focus in the first few years will be totally on players,
because obviously when you look back at thirty years of history,
you've got a lot of players. And so the first
we'll be looking at annual luncheons in the next three
to four years, I would think, and then as you know,
after in time, as you get through the inductees, you
may go to bi annual or whatever. But I'd say
(02:06):
for the next four or five years, we're looking at
annual luncheons to induct three or four players and maybe
coaches as well.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Two questions, John, what are the criteria and who's making
these choices?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah, Well, we've had an organizing the board obviously approved
the whole process, the Board of the Blues, and then
they appointed an organizing committee which has been bringing together
this whole function event and the concept. The organizing committee
and the board appointed a selection committee, and that selection
(02:41):
committee I chair that selection committee, and that selection committee
has met and over time and agreed on a list
of players who we believe are people who meet all
the criteria. And then we met to decide on who
would be the first three, because we're inducting three, the
(03:01):
initial three on Friday, and I'm pleased to say that
the committee came to a one hundred percent consensus on
who those three players should be, and that all will
be revealed on Friday.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Just a couple of those those key criteria, though, what
do you want to look? It has to look good
and blue.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Obviously blue helps, I'd say, I'd say, but look obviously
having an outstanding playing career and have achieved excellence in
their own playing position, recognized being of good character, and
being a positive influence on and off the field by
both their actions and behavior. Normally it's played a minimum
(03:43):
of fifty games, but exceptions are going to be made. Obviously,
you've got a couple of players who might be at
the end of your career who started late only started,
you know, late in their career, the when Super Rugby commence,
and it could be an injury situation where someone was
precluded from playing more. And really it's a lot about
both their contribution to the Blues, how they were rated
(04:05):
at the time amongst the Blue them and generally, you know,
you've got to be the best of a best.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I've got twenty bucks on Carlos Spencer. But that's a
discussion for another day. And you're not going to let
that cat out of the bag, I know, Hugh, John, Right.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
There'll be no you come along to a lunch in
Darcy and you your sever three announced.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I love this a formal invitation just when I'm at
work and you know that, John, you know where I works.
Thank you very much for that. Right, let's move into
the big story of the day. The constant Changeman, the
All Blacks. We're talking New Zealand to rugby, the coaching staff.
The list goes on, adding another name, quite an important name,
Sir Graham Henry is now an independent selector. My first
(04:48):
question to you is this a good new a good
move and what exactly does an independent selector bring to
the party.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Look, I totally agree with the appointment of an independent selector.
I think an independent selector has the ability to do
that be independent, is not necessarily locked into the day
to day running of the team, and is a fresh
pair of eyes and can bring a different perspective to
those that may be regularly working in working in the
(05:20):
team environment. So, and there are a lot of games
to cover these days, and I think having someone like
Sir Graham available to support the coach and the other
selectors or selector selectors is very vital. It will bring
variation of view, it will see I happen to believe
(05:42):
that the most important thing a coach ever does is
select So getting your selections right is important or more important,
probably than the technical skills of coaching, because if you
get selections right, everything else will follow. So I'm a
great believer in doing everything you can to ensure that
your selection process is robust, is competitive, that you're checking
(06:05):
and your balance, and I think I applaud what Dave
Rennie's doing and opening up this disposition.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
If you're too deep in the weeds, you can't see.
So that's why it's important to be distant in a way,
and so you can look from an overall position. You
also have to have the ability to be strong in
your opinions, and I suggest that Ted has those strong
opinions and they will sit well with Dave Rennie as
a character, he's strong as well, so that that debate
(06:35):
with himself, Barnsey and Henry it could be epic. I'd
like to be a fly on the wall.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Oh well, I think that's part of why you do it,
to check and you know, to question, to question and
to debate. You know, because you can get your own views,
you can get locked into your own views. Have been there,
I know what you can do. So I think having
other people and someone who is slightly independent outside and
(07:01):
has the ability skill set to know the game can
play a very violent, a very vital role in helping
and helping a coach get to the right processes.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Let's hope it doesn't deteriorate into a violent role. And I
don't think he wants to see that, said John, what
about the runway to the World Cup. How's important that
we've got a very short amount of time for the
World Cup. In Ted, you've got a character that's had
success at World Cups and knows what that preparation is
all about that must be of vital import as well.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Well. He's had success and failure, which is also important
because I think there are a lot of learnings in
World Cups, and I would think that having someone that
has wide World Cup experience is something that he doesn't
necessarily have throughout his existing management team. So I think
that's an additional advantage that it will help very much
(07:52):
in terms of the runway into the World Cup, which
is pretty short as we know, and so I think
that's another factor that really supports disappointment.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
What about traps? What do they need to be aware
of within All Blacks management about I'm not saying specifically
Sir Graham Henry, but about imploying somebody as an independent selector.
Where are the issues do you think?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I don't think there are issues because in the end,
the coach will make the decisions. You know, the coach
will he might have They will always disagree from time
to time on decisions. It's an inevitable that coaches will
have that. You know, you have that in most coaching teams.
You won't always agree on who should plan, who shouldn't play.
So I think but in the end, I don't think
(08:35):
there are any risks because I think the end decision
is that of the coach. The coach makes a final
decision because he stands or you know, he stands, lives
and stands by his decisions like that. So I don't
see any real issues. Even if there was a strong
view that he didn't like, then that's what they will understand. Ultimately,
(08:56):
they may agree to disagree.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
The ability to get ted off wahaiki is and I
know that's quite difficult, but get him around to the grounds,
actually eyeballing physically the players in real time? Is that
of huge importance?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Well, obviously you've got television, you can watch games, but
I would assume that the appointments based on the fact
that they will want him attending games and seeing the
game close, you know, close at hand.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
So you know, why is that important? Sorry, John? Why
is it important to actually physically be there and watch
these guys? What does that bring that TV doesn't?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Well, Well, because quite often when you're watching, you're watching players,
you watch them for a certain period of time, and
you know I do that. Used to do that myself.
I'd go to a game and I would watch one
player for quarter an hour. Now you can do that live.
You can't do that on television. You want to follow
a player, and you know they're not always in the television,
always in the camera, and it's what happens on and
(09:53):
off the ball was as vital. So you know, being
there live and then having the opportunity to watch television
later is a really good combination.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I've had discussions around the office and I don't want
to bring this up. Few people have said, hey, he's
a bit old, isn't he And maybe some of his
ideas are from the past. Is he still up to that?
And then I've had discussions off air with a number
of former coaches, and the light of the said, don't be nonsense.
He's sharp as attack and that history is so important,
the fact that he understands what rugby and being and
(10:24):
all black is all about. Now, are you going one
way or the other on this one?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
John, Well, at my age, I've got to agree with him.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Well, it shouldn't come into it, should it. It should
be about your ability to actually, I suppose, fulfill the task.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Look, I would think that the decision by Dave Ree
to do this would be based on having met with Graham,
understanding what he can bring understanding Graham understanding what Dave
Reni wants and they sat down and agreed the past.
So I don't think it's really about it's about skill set.
(11:00):
Age doesn't come into it.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Back in your day, you used a couple of Legends
and Cooper and Hunter as selectors. They were full time,
but I think at one stage drifted away and one
became kind of an independent selector. What did you learn
yourself as a coach during that process?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, I think that's you know, my situation was at
to say, when I started, they were appointed as co
coaches as well, so they were selectors at coaches as well,
So they were both involved right through with me and
the coaching in right through ninety six ninety seven and
then ninety eight ninety nine we had brought in some
additional coaches like Wayne Smith and Peter Slane, and their
(11:40):
role changed, and particularly Gordon became more of a independent selector.
He stayed on as a selector and so, you know,
way back in the nineties we were doing we did
some of this independence.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
As well, and it worked.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think once again it's all about
the people, you know, and the relationships. These sort of
things work if you pick the right people, if you
know what you need and you agree on Australia and
you can implement together.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
The last thing. John Harton, as always, thanks very much
for your time and your expertise. A number of changes
have been made since the introduction of Dave Rennie. It's
been broad. You don't know if it's going to be
successful or not. But from what you can see with
the changes and coaching staff, administration the like, have you've
got a good feeling about the next World Cup.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Look, I think the new Zeerman union has gone through
a really difficult time. It was a very brave decision
to change the coach. They've recruited, you know, in Don Trekker,
I think an outstanding person to head their high performance program.
I think they're making a lot of good steps. Dave
Rennie is a good appointment. You know. The other option,
(12:51):
Jamie Joseph, also would have been a good appointment. But
I think Dave Rennie has proven I know how highly
he was respected in Australia by the Australian team, to
Australian players, He's had success all around the world. He's
very global in his knowledge of the game and I
think he will build. He's building his team. You can't
(13:14):
comment on that because I don't know some of those people,
but you know, they look, they've all got credentials, and
I'm sure he's focusing now on growing that, growing that
management team. Bringing back people like Gilbert and Oka and
to a lesser extent, Graham Henry are very good moves
in terms of you know, going to the past and
respecting the past. So I think all around, I'm very
(13:39):
confident that, you know, he's doing the work and difficult
he's got a difficult entry because he's obviously still heavily
involved in Japan, but you know, as soon as that finishes,
he'll be full time into the All Blacks and look,
I think he'll do an excellent job in guiding and
leading the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
And with that, we wish you farewell, John Hart. Always
a pleasure, Thanks for your time. You look after yourself.
A massive, massive couple of years coming up. Keep your
phone next to you.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Thanks Betty, Bye, awesome.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Thank you For more
Speaker 1 (14:11):
From Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks it'd be
from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Wildergrave
from News Talk z'b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, welcome to the program. Now to jbh aka John Hart. John,
Welcome to the program. Hi Darcy, Nice to be on
your program and great to have you on board as well.
Interesting news today and we're going to cover off Sir
Graham Henry's engagement as an independent selector later on the piece,
but first in we've got to talk about this because
(00:34):
this is a fantastic story. A Hall of Fame for
the Blues after thirty years, it's probably over due, and
she's off and running from Friday.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Yep, big function, big luncheon on Friday at the Sky
City Entertainment Center. We've got eight hundred people attending, and
this lunch will be the announcement of the inaugural three
inductees into the Blues Hall of Fame, looking back over
the past thirty years, and we'll be a celebration of
blues of the Blues history over that time.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, it's probably it's been a long time to super aguy.
Actually you forget how long it's been around. For thirty years,
I like to shake away it on far too old
for this, So as far as the inductees, is this
going to be running on an annual basis every five years?
How are you going to put these people in? How
does that work?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Well, in fact, we've got two. We've got two categories.
One one Hall of Famers and that is limited to
players and coaches who meet certain criteria. And then there's
guardians who could be administrators, could be team management, could
be commercial partners who have made significant contributions. Now, the
(01:45):
focus in the first few years will be totally on players,
because obviously when you look back at thirty years of history,
you've got a lot of players. And so the first
we'll be looking at annual luncheons in the next three
to four years, I would think, and then as you know,
after in time, as you get through the inductees, you
may go to bi annual or whatever. But I'd say
(02:06):
for the next four or five years, we're looking at
annual luncheons to induct three or four players and maybe
coaches as well.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Two questions, John, what are the criteria and who's making
these choices?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah, Well, we've had an organizing the board obviously approved
the whole process, the Board of the Blues, and then
they appointed an organizing committee which has been bringing together
this whole function event and the concept. The organizing committee
and the board appointed a selection committee, and that selection
(02:41):
committee I chair that selection committee, and that selection committee
has met and over time and agreed on a list
of players who we believe are people who meet all
the criteria. And then we met to decide on who
would be the first three, because we're inducting three, the
(03:01):
initial three on Friday, and I'm pleased to say that
the committee came to a one hundred percent consensus on
who those three players should be, and that all will
be revealed on Friday.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Just a couple of those those key criteria, though, what
do you want to look? It has to look good
and blue.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Obviously blue helps, I'd say, I'd say, but look obviously
having an outstanding playing career and have achieved excellence in
their own playing position, recognized being of good character, and
being a positive influence on and off the field by
both their actions and behavior. Normally it's played a minimum
(03:43):
of fifty games, but exceptions are going to be made. Obviously,
you've got a couple of players who might be at
the end of your career who started late only started,
you know, late in their career, the when Super Rugby commence,
and it could be an injury situation where someone was
precluded from playing more. And really it's a lot about
both their contribution to the Blues, how they were rated
(04:05):
at the time amongst the Blue them and generally, you know,
you've got to be the best of a best.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I've got twenty bucks on Carlos Spencer. But that's a
discussion for another day. And you're not going to let
that cat out of the bag, I know, Hugh, John, Right.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
There'll be no you come along to a lunch in
Darcy and you your sever three announced.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I love this a formal invitation just when I'm at
work and you know that, John, you know where I works.
Thank you very much for that. Right, let's move into
the big story of the day. The constant Changeman, the
All Blacks. We're talking New Zealand to rugby, the coaching staff.
The list goes on, adding another name, quite an important name,
Sir Graham Henry is now an independent selector. My first
(04:48):
question to you is this a good new a good
move and what exactly does an independent selector bring to
the party.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Look, I totally agree with the appointment of an independent selector.
I think an independent selector has the ability to do
that be independent, is not necessarily locked into the day
to day running of the team, and is a fresh
pair of eyes and can bring a different perspective to
those that may be regularly working in working in the
(05:20):
team environment. So, and there are a lot of games
to cover these days, and I think having someone like
Sir Graham available to support the coach and the other
selectors or selector selectors is very vital. It will bring
variation of view, it will see I happen to believe
(05:42):
that the most important thing a coach ever does is
select So getting your selections right is important or more important,
probably than the technical skills of coaching, because if you
get selections right, everything else will follow. So I'm a
great believer in doing everything you can to ensure that
your selection process is robust, is competitive, that you're checking
(06:05):
and your balance, and I think I applaud what Dave
Rennie's doing and opening up this disposition.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
If you're too deep in the weeds, you can't see.
So that's why it's important to be distant in a way,
and so you can look from an overall position. You
also have to have the ability to be strong in
your opinions, and I suggest that Ted has those strong
opinions and they will sit well with Dave Rennie as
a character, he's strong as well, so that that debate
(06:35):
with himself, Barnsey and Henry it could be epic. I'd
like to be a fly on the wall.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Oh well, I think that's part of why you do it,
to check and you know, to question, to question and
to debate. You know, because you can get your own views,
you can get locked into your own views. Have been there,
I know what you can do. So I think having
other people and someone who is slightly independent outside and
(07:01):
has the ability skill set to know the game can
play a very violent, a very vital role in helping
and helping a coach get to the right processes.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Let's hope it doesn't deteriorate into a violent role. And I
don't think he wants to see that, said John, what
about the runway to the World Cup. How's important that
we've got a very short amount of time for the
World Cup. In Ted, you've got a character that's had
success at World Cups and knows what that preparation is
all about that must be of vital import as well.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Well. He's had success and failure, which is also important
because I think there are a lot of learnings in
World Cups, and I would think that having someone that
has wide World Cup experience is something that he doesn't
necessarily have throughout his existing management team. So I think
that's an additional advantage that it will help very much
(07:52):
in terms of the runway into the World Cup, which
is pretty short as we know, and so I think
that's another factor that really supports disappointment.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
What about traps? What do they need to be aware
of within All Blacks management about I'm not saying specifically
Sir Graham Henry, but about imploying somebody as an independent selector.
Where are the issues do you think?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I don't think there are issues because in the end,
the coach will make the decisions. You know, the coach
will he might have They will always disagree from time
to time on decisions. It's an inevitable that coaches will
have that. You know, you have that in most coaching teams.
You won't always agree on who should plan, who shouldn't play.
So I think but in the end, I don't think
(08:35):
there are any risks because I think the end decision
is that of the coach. The coach makes a final
decision because he stands or you know, he stands, lives
and stands by his decisions like that. So I don't
see any real issues. Even if there was a strong
view that he didn't like, then that's what they will understand. Ultimately,
(08:56):
they may agree to disagree.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
The ability to get ted off wahaiki is and I
know that's quite difficult, but get him around to the grounds,
actually eyeballing physically the players in real time? Is that
of huge importance?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Well, obviously you've got television, you can watch games, but
I would assume that the appointments based on the fact
that they will want him attending games and seeing the
game close, you know, close at hand.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
So you know, why is that important? Sorry, John? Why
is it important to actually physically be there and watch
these guys? What does that bring that TV doesn't?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Well, Well, because quite often when you're watching, you're watching players,
you watch them for a certain period of time, and
you know I do that. Used to do that myself.
I'd go to a game and I would watch one
player for quarter an hour. Now you can do that live.
You can't do that on television. You want to follow
a player, and you know they're not always in the television,
always in the camera, and it's what happens on and
(09:53):
off the ball was as vital. So you know, being
there live and then having the opportunity to watch television
later is a really good combination.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I've had discussions around the office and I don't want
to bring this up. Few people have said, hey, he's
a bit old, isn't he And maybe some of his
ideas are from the past. Is he still up to that?
And then I've had discussions off air with a number
of former coaches, and the light of the said, don't be nonsense.
He's sharp as attack and that history is so important,
the fact that he understands what rugby and being and
(10:24):
all black is all about. Now, are you going one
way or the other on this one?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
John, Well, at my age, I've got to agree with him.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Well, it shouldn't come into it, should it. It should
be about your ability to actually, I suppose, fulfill the task.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Look, I would think that the decision by Dave Ree
to do this would be based on having met with Graham,
understanding what he can bring understanding Graham understanding what Dave
Reni wants and they sat down and agreed the past.
So I don't think it's really about it's about skill set.
(11:00):
Age doesn't come into it.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Back in your day, you used a couple of Legends
and Cooper and Hunter as selectors. They were full time,
but I think at one stage drifted away and one
became kind of an independent selector. What did you learn
yourself as a coach during that process?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, I think that's you know, my situation was at
to say, when I started, they were appointed as co
coaches as well, so they were selectors at coaches as well,
So they were both involved right through with me and
the coaching in right through ninety six ninety seven and
then ninety eight ninety nine we had brought in some
additional coaches like Wayne Smith and Peter Slane, and their
(11:40):
role changed, and particularly Gordon became more of a independent selector.
He stayed on as a selector and so, you know,
way back in the nineties we were doing we did
some of this independence.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
As well, and it worked.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think once again it's all about
the people, you know, and the relationships. These sort of
things work if you pick the right people, if you
know what you need and you agree on Australia and
you can implement together.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
The last thing. John Harton, as always, thanks very much
for your time and your expertise. A number of changes
have been made since the introduction of Dave Rennie. It's
been broad. You don't know if it's going to be
successful or not. But from what you can see with
the changes and coaching staff, administration the like, have you've
got a good feeling about the next World Cup.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Look, I think the new Zeerman union has gone through
a really difficult time. It was a very brave decision
to change the coach. They've recruited, you know, in Don Trekker,
I think an outstanding person to head their high performance program.
I think they're making a lot of good steps. Dave
Rennie is a good appointment. You know. The other option,
(12:51):
Jamie Joseph, also would have been a good appointment. But
I think Dave Rennie has proven I know how highly
he was respected in Australia by the Australian team, to
Australian players, He's had success all around the world. He's
very global in his knowledge of the game and I
think he will build. He's building his team. You can't
(13:14):
comment on that because I don't know some of those people,
but you know, they look, they've all got credentials, and
I'm sure he's focusing now on growing that, growing that
management team. Bringing back people like Gilbert and Oka and
to a lesser extent, Graham Henry are very good moves
in terms of you know, going to the past and
respecting the past. So I think all around, I'm very
(13:39):
confident that, you know, he's doing the work and difficult
he's got a difficult entry because he's obviously still heavily
involved in Japan, but you know, as soon as that finishes,
he'll be full time into the All Blacks and look,
I think he'll do an excellent job in guiding and
leading the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
And with that, we wish you farewell, John Hart. Always
a pleasure, Thanks for your time. You look after yourself.
A massive, massive couple of years coming up. Keep your
phone next to you.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Thanks Betty, Bye, awesome.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Thank you For more
Speaker 1 (14:11):
From Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks it'd be
from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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