It was officially announced today that the Wellington Rugby Union will be cancelling all the club rugby fixtures this weekend after the Wellington Rugby Referees Association came out yesterday stating they would not be officiating any matches.
They have done this to take a stand against the abuse they have been receiving from both the sidelines and players on the park.
Mike Hester is the GM of Community Rugby Participation and Development at NZ Rugby and he joined D'Arcy to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duncy Waldegrave
from News talks'd be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Officially announced today that Wellington Rugby Union said you know
what up yours? We had enough of your crap on.
Know they didn't officially say that, they said they're going
to cancel all the club rugby fixtures this weekend after
the Wellington Rugby Referees Association came out saying hey, we're
not officiating any maxes. We're over this. We had enough
and good on them. They've done this to take a
(00:34):
stand against the abuse they've been receiving, both from the sideline.
This is what kills me the players on the park,
bro that is average. Take a good, long hard look
at yourself. If you do that, go sit in the corner,
put a dunce cap on. Can't cope aside. That will
take your calls on if this punitive action that's been taken,
(00:56):
and it has been taken before, if it needs to
carry on being put in place is the only way
to stop this behavior. We'll get your calls on that
after our first guest, his name is Mike Hester, is
the GM of Community Rugby Participation and Development at z AH.
He joins us now to discuss that issue. Good evening, Mike,
(01:19):
good evening, Thanks very much for joining us on the program.
I don't believe we're talking about this again, not me new,
but in general, it was a year or so ago
now that Hotoperneur Carpety decided to abandon a round of
games too based on the same thing, Wellington have pulled
the plug on a weekend's rugby action because of abuse
(01:41):
towards referees from players and from sidelines as well. This
carries on.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Do you think that.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Maybe banning the weekend is actually working based on what
happened in Hotoperneur? Is this getting any tracks in this
kind of response to this.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
It's so it's certainly disappointing that it's come to this.
I mean, there's obviously been some issues in that local
union around sort of free abuse and player and spectator behavior,
and from what I understand, they've been fore warning for
a little while now that there's going to be some
more serious consequences if the problems continued, and unfortunately that
(02:20):
appears to have been the case, and so the Referees
Association have follow through on what they indicated they were
going to do. From an ends at our perspective, obviously
very supportive of the union and the ras they work
through this, and it sounds like there's problem solve wing
meeting tonight with the union and the clubs and the referees.
So we're hoping that that will go well and they'll
find a way through. But in essence, the refereeing role
(02:43):
is across all sports is very difficult. You know, they're volunteers,
are there to serve the game. They often have to
come down and make decisions one way or the other,
and not always.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
They're not always popular.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
So it's really disappointing when behavior sort of goes both
the line and the line, and so when it is
an address stoor, when we get to a point where
the referees don't feel that they can continue, you know,
we end up with these situations with draw their voluntary
services and we sort of need to respect that.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
But yeah, certainly disappointing that's come to this.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well, you lose them for the weekend, but more pressing
is that this discouragement for people to want to be
involved in refereeing. This is the bottom line. People are
going to look at it and go it's still going on.
Why would I bother that's got to be distressing for
ends are.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, So.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
One case of referee abuse is is simply one too
many if we put it in context. Over the course
of a season, so there's about fifty thousand games delivered
across the country from juniors, teenagers and seniors. Not all
of those games are covered by an official qualified referee,
but there's always a referee that is covering.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Those games in some shape or form.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
And so the number of cases that we do have
from sort of year to year still quite a low number.
So it's certainly not commonplace. But as I said, one
case is one too many, and so we're really keen
to make sure we understand what's going on with those
work out what we could have done, what can we
put in place, how can we provide local support, and
(04:12):
what can we do nationally. So there's a number of
things that we've been advancing to try and address that.
It is, unfortunately one of the things we do sort
of see in sport. It's not just a rugby issue.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
It is an issue across many sidelines, across many.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Codes as where spectator behavior in particular, so it goes
goes too far and then unfortunately sort of spills over
into abuse situations. So not something we see in every
game every weekend, but certainly one case is one too many.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Is the choice of going back to the initial question
believe do you believe it's a real issue with getting
people into the referring side of the game. Do they
look to that and go, look, I'm sorry, I can't
even though you said it's not, it's not of high traction.
We don't see it all the time, But is this
a reason for people not to be engaged in referring
whatever level?
Speaker 4 (05:06):
It certainly doesn't help with sort of recruitment and retention
both around the profile of officiating and then keeping people
and officiating if they don't have good experiences. So in
terms of what Rugby is trying to do is you know,
we're trying to ensure that we've got good support mechanisms
around referees, particularly those formative years when they're still learning
(05:28):
their craft, they're still learning how to make decisions, they're
still trying to be accurate. They're sometimes working with players
that had more experience playing then they might have afficiating,
So it's a little bit of an imbalance. So putting
lots of support around that groups there sort of finding
their feet, getting their training wheels off is really really critical.
And then obviously for those that are engaged in referring,
(05:50):
we do need them to be able to make tough
decisions and anticipate there is going to be reactions to that,
but we don't want that to be an unpleasant match
day experience. So how do we ensure that they have
a really positive match day experience making those tough calls.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
And that's around really clear.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Expectations about clubs and schools about what we're expecting of
them and their sidelines, from things like how they have
them or rubbed off, how they have people policing sidelines
to encourage good behavior, sideline behavior programs, through to support
of the referees around how do we support them getting better,
how they improve their performances, and how they have good
(06:27):
match day experiences. And then unfortunately, when things don't go well,
you know what's our ambulance at the bottom of the
cliff in the form of our judicial systems to make
sure that if people have overstepped, then there's some accountability
that goes with that to send a message. If we
get all of those things right, Ideally you avoid getting
to a point where referees feel like they may need
to withdraw their services to make a point. But unfortunately
(06:50):
that will happen from time to time and that's where
we find ourselves today.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And so the ends it, I can do what they
can do at that leve When you mentioned before, it's
not just a rugby issue. It happens right across a
number of sports, and that is fair. But when it's
actually occurring where it is in rugby is basically the
sphere you talked about improving a lot of different areas
to try and negate this issue. What about the people
(07:14):
on the ground because some of these people, I'd suggest
it doesn't matter how many times you tell them, it's
not going to change. It's a little societal. Can you
do anything there from a club perspective, from if you
had some advice to the players to the crowd, Is
there anything that can happen from that level? Actually, as
it goes on in real time, I think.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
A lot of it's around sort of people holding themselves
accountable into each other about what good behavior looks like.
So clubs are and schools are really important institutions for
delivering the game and it's not just about what happens
between the white lines. They'll be proud of their own
identities and the cultures they create. I want to be welcoming,
and so it's just encouraging people in leadership positions, people
(08:00):
who are on side lines. Is make sure that you
do hold each other accountable for Ashley what happens here.
Don't turn a blind eye. You know, the standard you
walk passes, the STANDARDY accept sort of thing. So everyone's
sort of got that obligation because community sport as a
high trust, largely volunteer system, and so people need to
(08:20):
work together to make sure it's a really enjoyable experience.
There's no one regulation or one sort of program that
ends that I can roll out or any other national
sport that will be the silverabillet here.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
It's everyone sort of going to play their part.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
What's worked overseas, any investigation therec this is not I
am sure this is a problem that New Zealand only has.
It'll be going on everywhere.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Yeah, I don't think we're any different to any other
parts of the world. And every sport has its own
sort of nuances in terms of how there's interactions between
players and match officials and sidelines. It's different in different
codes where spectator is a little bit more removed, they're
(09:05):
not as close and not as able to have as
much influence. And so, you know, part of the work,
particularly in the youth space is looking at what, you know,
what does work well elsewhere?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Well, what does work? Don't you have any idea what
works overseas if there's any case studies at all.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Michael, not not anything that we've seen that we haven't
tried here that has been out of the ordinary. I mean,
Norway has sort of a country that's a real exemplar
around certainly the youth development model, and there's certainly really
strong understanding amongst the sports system there and all the participants,
particular parents around what role the youth experience should look
(09:45):
like or what role that they plan that. So that's
that's typically been something that we've we've looked at along
with Sporting Z But again, no, no real silver bullet.
It really comes down to people take responsibility for their
behavior and holding each other account to that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I'm glad you mentioned that We'll finish off with this
around Sporting ZED and around the government side of things,
around the Minister of sport and they're like, what can
they do, how can they influence? How much of this
rests on their shoulders.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Well, I think everyone's got a role to play, but
everyone has varying degrees of influence.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
So we have a degree of influence, but through our.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Pus who work through with their clubs and schools who
then have to sort of make it happen on the grass.
Sportings have a similar sort of role to us and
that they can provide support and influence. They have definitely
provided leadership in the form of in the youth space
around a program called Good Sports which is sort of
(10:43):
underpins balances better and that's got some really strong messaging
in the air around what great youth experiences should look
like from a climate of development perspective. So they've provided
that sort of national leadership for the sector which we
can leverage off and we use and we have used
successfully to try and reset expectations around what sidelines should
look like, what parents' roles are and supporting their children.
(11:05):
HEO had a great experience, which is can do what
clubs and schools can do. So that's the sort of
influence that sporting z can he and that's the influence
they have had with some of their programs that Rugby
and a number of others have leveraged off.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And on that note, we'll let you get on with
your day. Real pleasure always is Mike Hester into ahead
of rugby participation, development competitions.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
You get.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Your tag gets longer and longer with every passing second.
I hope that equates to your paypacket as well. Mike Caster,
thanks very much for your time.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Thank you for more from Sports Talk. Listen live to
News Talks it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duncy Waldegrave
from News talks'd be.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Officially announced today that Wellington Rugby Union said you know
what up yours? We had enough of your crap on.
Know they didn't officially say that, they said they're going
to cancel all the club rugby fixtures this weekend after
the Wellington Rugby Referees Association came out saying hey, we're
not officiating any maxes. We're over this. We had enough
and good on them. They've done this to take a
(00:34):
stand against the abuse they've been receiving, both from the sideline.
This is what kills me the players on the park,
bro that is average. Take a good, long hard look
at yourself. If you do that, go sit in the corner,
put a dunce cap on. Can't cope aside. That will
take your calls on if this punitive action that's been taken,
(00:56):
and it has been taken before, if it needs to
carry on being put in place is the only way
to stop this behavior. We'll get your calls on that
after our first guest, his name is Mike Hester, is
the GM of Community Rugby Participation and Development at z AH.
He joins us now to discuss that issue. Good evening, Mike,
(01:19):
good evening, Thanks very much for joining us on the program.
I don't believe we're talking about this again, not me new,
but in general, it was a year or so ago
now that Hotoperneur Carpety decided to abandon a round of
games too based on the same thing, Wellington have pulled
the plug on a weekend's rugby action because of abuse
(01:41):
towards referees from players and from sidelines as well. This
carries on.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Do you think that.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Maybe banning the weekend is actually working based on what
happened in Hotoperneur? Is this getting any tracks in this
kind of response to this.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
It's so it's certainly disappointing that it's come to this.
I mean, there's obviously been some issues in that local
union around sort of free abuse and player and spectator behavior,
and from what I understand, they've been fore warning for
a little while now that there's going to be some
more serious consequences if the problems continued, and unfortunately that
(02:20):
appears to have been the case, and so the Referees
Association have follow through on what they indicated they were
going to do. From an ends at our perspective, obviously
very supportive of the union and the ras they work
through this, and it sounds like there's problem solve wing
meeting tonight with the union and the clubs and the referees.
So we're hoping that that will go well and they'll
find a way through. But in essence, the refereeing role
(02:43):
is across all sports is very difficult. You know, they're volunteers,
are there to serve the game. They often have to
come down and make decisions one way or the other,
and not always.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
They're not always popular.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
So it's really disappointing when behavior sort of goes both
the line and the line, and so when it is
an address stoor, when we get to a point where
the referees don't feel that they can continue, you know,
we end up with these situations with draw their voluntary
services and we sort of need to respect that.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
But yeah, certainly disappointing that's come to this.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well, you lose them for the weekend, but more pressing
is that this discouragement for people to want to be
involved in refereeing. This is the bottom line. People are
going to look at it and go it's still going on.
Why would I bother that's got to be distressing for
ends are.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, So.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
One case of referee abuse is is simply one too
many if we put it in context. Over the course
of a season, so there's about fifty thousand games delivered
across the country from juniors, teenagers and seniors. Not all
of those games are covered by an official qualified referee,
but there's always a referee that is covering.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Those games in some shape or form.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
And so the number of cases that we do have
from sort of year to year still quite a low number.
So it's certainly not commonplace. But as I said, one
case is one too many, and so we're really keen
to make sure we understand what's going on with those
work out what we could have done, what can we
put in place, how can we provide local support, and
(04:12):
what can we do nationally. So there's a number of
things that we've been advancing to try and address that.
It is, unfortunately one of the things we do sort
of see in sport. It's not just a rugby issue.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
It is an issue across many sidelines, across many.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Codes as where spectator behavior in particular, so it goes
goes too far and then unfortunately sort of spills over
into abuse situations. So not something we see in every
game every weekend, but certainly one case is one too many.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Is the choice of going back to the initial question
believe do you believe it's a real issue with getting
people into the referring side of the game. Do they
look to that and go, look, I'm sorry, I can't
even though you said it's not, it's not of high traction.
We don't see it all the time, But is this
a reason for people not to be engaged in referring
whatever level?
Speaker 4 (05:06):
It certainly doesn't help with sort of recruitment and retention
both around the profile of officiating and then keeping people
and officiating if they don't have good experiences. So in
terms of what Rugby is trying to do is you know,
we're trying to ensure that we've got good support mechanisms
around referees, particularly those formative years when they're still learning
(05:28):
their craft, they're still learning how to make decisions, they're
still trying to be accurate. They're sometimes working with players
that had more experience playing then they might have afficiating,
So it's a little bit of an imbalance. So putting
lots of support around that groups there sort of finding
their feet, getting their training wheels off is really really critical.
And then obviously for those that are engaged in referring,
(05:50):
we do need them to be able to make tough
decisions and anticipate there is going to be reactions to that,
but we don't want that to be an unpleasant match
day experience. So how do we ensure that they have
a really positive match day experience making those tough calls.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
And that's around really clear.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Expectations about clubs and schools about what we're expecting of
them and their sidelines, from things like how they have
them or rubbed off, how they have people policing sidelines
to encourage good behavior, sideline behavior programs, through to support
of the referees around how do we support them getting better,
how they improve their performances, and how they have good
(06:27):
match day experiences. And then unfortunately, when things don't go well,
you know what's our ambulance at the bottom of the
cliff in the form of our judicial systems to make
sure that if people have overstepped, then there's some accountability
that goes with that to send a message. If we
get all of those things right, Ideally you avoid getting
to a point where referees feel like they may need
to withdraw their services to make a point. But unfortunately
(06:50):
that will happen from time to time and that's where
we find ourselves today.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And so the ends it, I can do what they
can do at that leve When you mentioned before, it's
not just a rugby issue. It happens right across a
number of sports, and that is fair. But when it's
actually occurring where it is in rugby is basically the
sphere you talked about improving a lot of different areas
to try and negate this issue. What about the people
(07:14):
on the ground because some of these people, I'd suggest
it doesn't matter how many times you tell them, it's
not going to change. It's a little societal. Can you
do anything there from a club perspective, from if you
had some advice to the players to the crowd, Is
there anything that can happen from that level? Actually, as
it goes on in real time, I think.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
A lot of it's around sort of people holding themselves
accountable into each other about what good behavior looks like.
So clubs are and schools are really important institutions for
delivering the game and it's not just about what happens
between the white lines. They'll be proud of their own
identities and the cultures they create. I want to be welcoming,
and so it's just encouraging people in leadership positions, people
(08:00):
who are on side lines. Is make sure that you
do hold each other accountable for Ashley what happens here.
Don't turn a blind eye. You know, the standard you
walk passes, the STANDARDY accept sort of thing. So everyone's
sort of got that obligation because community sport as a
high trust, largely volunteer system, and so people need to
(08:20):
work together to make sure it's a really enjoyable experience.
There's no one regulation or one sort of program that
ends that I can roll out or any other national
sport that will be the silverabillet here.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
It's everyone sort of going to play their part.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
What's worked overseas, any investigation therec this is not I
am sure this is a problem that New Zealand only has.
It'll be going on everywhere.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Yeah, I don't think we're any different to any other
parts of the world. And every sport has its own
sort of nuances in terms of how there's interactions between
players and match officials and sidelines. It's different in different
codes where spectator is a little bit more removed, they're
(09:05):
not as close and not as able to have as
much influence. And so, you know, part of the work,
particularly in the youth space is looking at what, you know,
what does work well elsewhere?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Well, what does work? Don't you have any idea what
works overseas if there's any case studies at all.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Michael, not not anything that we've seen that we haven't
tried here that has been out of the ordinary. I mean,
Norway has sort of a country that's a real exemplar
around certainly the youth development model, and there's certainly really
strong understanding amongst the sports system there and all the participants,
particular parents around what role the youth experience should look
(09:45):
like or what role that they plan that. So that's
that's typically been something that we've we've looked at along
with Sporting Z But again, no, no real silver bullet.
It really comes down to people take responsibility for their
behavior and holding each other account to that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I'm glad you mentioned that We'll finish off with this
around Sporting ZED and around the government side of things,
around the Minister of sport and they're like, what can
they do, how can they influence? How much of this
rests on their shoulders.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Well, I think everyone's got a role to play, but
everyone has varying degrees of influence.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
So we have a degree of influence, but through our.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Pus who work through with their clubs and schools who
then have to sort of make it happen on the grass.
Sportings have a similar sort of role to us and
that they can provide support and influence. They have definitely
provided leadership in the form of in the youth space
around a program called Good Sports which is sort of
(10:43):
underpins balances better and that's got some really strong messaging
in the air around what great youth experiences should look
like from a climate of development perspective. So they've provided
that sort of national leadership for the sector which we
can leverage off and we use and we have used
successfully to try and reset expectations around what sidelines should
look like, what parents' roles are and supporting their children.
(11:05):
HEO had a great experience, which is can do what
clubs and schools can do. So that's the sort of
influence that sporting z can he and that's the influence
they have had with some of their programs that Rugby
and a number of others have leveraged off.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And on that note, we'll let you get on with
your day. Real pleasure always is Mike Hester into ahead
of rugby participation, development competitions.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
You get.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Your tag gets longer and longer with every passing second.
I hope that equates to your paypacket as well. Mike Caster,
thanks very much for your time.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Thank you for more from Sports Talk. Listen live to
News Talks it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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