April 23, 2026 • 12 mins
Today, co-owner and chair of the Hurricanes, Malcolm Gillies, came out on the Rugby Direct podcast stating that without sweeping changes to Super Rugby Pacific, the competition is going to die.
Peter Kean is a co-owner and chair of the Highlanders, he joined D'Arcy to share his view.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Wildergrave
from news Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Malcolm Gillies today. He's a co owner and chair of
the Hurricanes. It came out some really interesting comments on
the Rugby Direct podcast, which is then written up on
the New Zealand Herald stating that without sweeping changes to
Super Rugby Pacific, it will die. Peter Keen, as an
(00:34):
owner a Super Rugby franchise, the Heighteners, is also the
chair of the Heighlanders franchise, joins us now to share
his view on that shot by mister Gillies. Good evening, Peter.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
How you going, Darcy? All good?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
You know, all's very very good, always is mate. You've
got to live your life like that. It's all about manifestation. Heye,
interesting stuff today that the Hurricanes co owner Malcolm Gillies.
He's come out on the Rugby Direct podcast and he
thinks that Super Rugby is staggering, if not dying, unless
serious changes are made. So of course I'll ring old
(01:12):
mate Peter keenup and go. Is he onto something here?
It's odd that he'd come out and say it and
be so forthright in his statement, But I suppose it's
worth being like that because it's a very serious subject
for rugby here in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Well, Super Rugby is very serious topic for us in
particular as owners and for the franchises in New Zealand.
But first of all, I think the point is that
we totally believe in Super Rugby. Still it is a
great competition. Can it be better? Absolutely, it can be better.
Did Malcolm have points in his article? Absolutely? I know Malcolm.
(01:48):
Malcolm is very new, as he said, into Super Rugby,
but he's not new into business. So there's a lot
of parallels between business and rugby because they do have
clearly a.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Business part to them.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
So I think it's fantastic that we have a new
broom coming in and looking at this and Malcolm it
helps us rethink where we're going. But we also we're
aware that Super Rugby could be better, so that that
would be the first thing I'd to say. But before
we can change, we have to put up a case
(02:22):
for change. So there's lots of tentacles, I guess, And
in the Super Rugby area we have the the ended
r PA, Rugby Australia and the like, So it's up
to us as Super Rugby to come up for the
case for change before we can change.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I believe amongst the group, the owners or the part
owners of these franchises, and you said you talk to
Malcolm the other concerned parties, is there a sense, is
there a feeling that this is the way to go
and things need to change? And I say that based
on the Canary and the gold mine, which is more
(03:00):
and Pussyfeker and of course the rebels, this is not
something we're making up. This is something that really has
to be addressed. Is that a general feeling amongst you owners.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
It's a general feeling that the you know, if we
have a new looking Super rugby competition, it has to
be investable for investors.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
So I think the point Malcolm was.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Making is currently it's very hard to be profitable in
the Super Rugby set up the way it is currently now.
Most of the people haven't come into to make rivers
of gold, that's for sure, but they're all canny and
very intelligent investors who are involved. So to attract more
investors and to allow for more investment into rugby and
(03:44):
Super Rugby in particular, to do that, we need to
make it investable.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
We can't just keep saying.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
To people want it. We want you to come in
because it's a charitable thing. So that's the opportunity we have.
We need innovation to happen in the in the game itself.
We need innovation in the competition, and I think, to me,
looking at it, it's sort of boiling the ocean.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It is pretty tough to get massive change.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Like Malcolm, I think he said himself that to change
everything would probably be nigh and possible straight away. So
I would say that instead of boiling the ocean, we
start with the billy or start with the jug and
get change. But I really do keep coming back to
the fact that the Super Rugby competition needs to be
seen as more attractive and more investable from a business
(04:31):
point of view. From the rugby side of things, I
still believe that there's lots of very good things happening
on the rugby paddocks, some fantastic games. Rugby is something
very deare to most New Zealander's hard so I think
they're probably not that interested in the back office musics,
I'm saying, Joe public. But back to Malcolm's article, he
(04:55):
has made some very good points and as I say,
we're catching up with Malcolm this weekend, so there's certainly
things that we can do better and we are looking
at it.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Model that's been around for such a long time as
very much a pyramid, and it was aimed at looking
at the best for n z R E. The All
Blacks at all points up. Is that for purpose anymore?
That concept should all these clubs, these franchises be only
around as feeder teams to the All Blacks, because that's
(05:29):
how it started, right.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
It is how it started.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
I think there's still an element of that because you
know New Zealand Rugby, the All Blacks are still our
pinnacle team, but we also love and are very passionate
about our own respective franchises and as are the fans,
so there has to be an element of developing those players.
High performance is key to Super Rugby, so it's different too.
(05:55):
I guess AFL Rugby League in lots of ways is
that the pinnacle for a lot of players in rugby
league is probably state of origin. If they're eligible rugby union,
it's clearly the All Blacks. So Super Rugby still has
to play a role in that. But as you said,
is it still fit for purpose? Still fit for purpose
(06:17):
for us to provide all blacks for sure and to
make sure our high performance part is up to scratch.
Is the competition still fit for purpose in terms of
the back office stuff. Well, that's for us to have
this case for change to take to New Zealand Rugby, RPA,
Rugby Australia, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Ns are do you believe now there's been a number
of changes at a top level. We still don't know
who the CEO is, but there's been adjustments, no doubt
about that.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Do you think they're.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Open to a challenge to their baby to try and
change the way things are going? They are they up
for that the best of your knowledge, pet of the
way they deal with their franchises.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
I do with the amount of change has been at
New Zealand Rugby, clearly they are up for change. There's
no doubt about that because there's been so much change.
So the timing might not be too bad for us
to have a conversation about what does that model look like?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
What is that case for change? So yeah, I do believe.
I believe that we'd be pushing on an open door.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's not a charity professional rugby. Maybe when it started.
It felt like it when Super Rugby started, but you
tached on them before. You're not doing this for the
love of the game of rugby. You need to turn
a profit. Now. That's not cutthroat, that's just a reality
of the professional sporting landscape, and we are seeing that
globally and almost we've got a bit of fomo fear
(07:48):
of missing out on what's going on around the rest
of the world. We can't sit still, We'll sink.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
We do all have a love of rugby, though the investors,
I would say that would be universal across the New
Zealand franchises. In the Australian franchises, that's for sure. But
as I said earlier, most of those people or all
of them, are very canny and smart investors, and they
also know that you have to get a return on investment,
so you can put money back into the Super Rugby,
(08:18):
into the high performance, into innovation and the like. So
it's not to make rivers and gold, as I said,
it is to actually enhance the competition, but to make
it profitable, because the more profitable of those, then the
more investors you'll get in and the more you can
invest back in the game.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
And then you're cooking with gas.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
You suggested before you're just starting boiling a kettle. Where
does your kettle start? What do you fill it with?
Is it player movement? Is it privatization? Is it transfer fees?
Is it where it's based? Is it the amount of
players you can bring from overseas and using Australian talent,
New Zealand talent. There are so many variables and paths
that you can go down. Primarily, what do you think
(09:00):
is the most important step Insiley, or would be for
you anyway?
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Peter Well, I believe that to make any change in
business or anywhere, you have to have a very structured
approach to it. There's no magic wand the structured approach
to me is having a strategic look at the whole
thing and then coming out with a structured approach to
make that case for change. And I wouldn't like to
(09:25):
pick which one was the most important right now, because
there would be remiss to me. I think I think
it's important just to get it, get it structurally right
and factually right. Before we do that, we.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Go to the water analogy again. You've got a great baby,
Maybe you want to empty the bath, but you don't
want to get rid of that baby. Now that you've
got to be very careful in that space because you
don't want to open yourself up to I suppose overseas
invaders it would be pretty keen to turn up and
see what they can pluck out of it. So you've
got a lot of responsibility around that space, Peter.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
In terms of them wanting to come in a vesta
in term of.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
The coming invest maybe put some controls in place with
the amount of money they're putting into that. It's an
area it is open to challenges from overseas money. Surely
you're going to be very cognizant of that.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Yeah, at the stage, that's something we're in control of.
So the old saying control the controllables, we are in control.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Of that at the moment.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
And so but if you've got the right people and
for the right reasons, So right now, I'm not talking
private equity, I'm just talking amongst the owners and clearly
the pus involved as that as well. And then you've
got New Zealand Rugby and as I say, you've got
others in this equation. So I don't see the corporate
(10:44):
raiders from overseas rushing to come into the space over
here at the moment.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's important to as you said, to control those controllers.
It's important to keep control of rugby here in New
Zealand with ns ARE, with the franchises. That's almost like
it's a non negotiable right.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Well, we also have to be are the fact that
Rugby Australia are part of this as well. So if
we're going to be considering this case for change, then
we need to enroll them some way and a discussion,
because you know, we don't want to just turn up
with something and say hey, this is it, because I
can't see that working.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And so the first step. It's great that we've had
the volleys fired by mister Gillies and you're all going
to be meeting on presuming at the New Stadium this
weekend to talk about this. And just one last thing.
This is not new from Malcolm. This doesn't come as
a surprise to any of you characters. This has been
(11:45):
a general mood of the franchises over the last couple
of years.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Well, I think, as I said before, the case for
Change is what we need to bring about and it's
how we do that, and it's you know the timing
of it, how do we bring it to fruition. So yeah,
but as I said, with a new person coming Malcolm
and new investor and new chairman, a very smart businessman
himself and clearly a very keen rugby man, it doesn't
(12:15):
do any harm to have a you know, either have
a different point of view or a similar point of view,
but maybe a bit more radical. So then you have
to go or are we thinking about this correctly? So
you know, no one's got a mortgage on good or
bad ideas.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And on that, Peter Kin, thank you very much for
sharing your thoughts on this always debatable subject. Let's look
forward to bigger, better things for and he's on rugby.
It's nice to know you're at the forefront. Thanks Peter.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Can't wait for super rugby around.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Wildergrave
from news Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Malcolm Gillies today. He's a co owner and chair of
the Hurricanes. It came out some really interesting comments on
the Rugby Direct podcast, which is then written up on
the New Zealand Herald stating that without sweeping changes to
Super Rugby Pacific, it will die. Peter Keen, as an
(00:34):
owner a Super Rugby franchise, the Heighteners, is also the
chair of the Heighlanders franchise, joins us now to share
his view on that shot by mister Gillies. Good evening, Peter.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
How you going, Darcy? All good?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
You know, all's very very good, always is mate. You've
got to live your life like that. It's all about manifestation. Heye,
interesting stuff today that the Hurricanes co owner Malcolm Gillies.
He's come out on the Rugby Direct podcast and he
thinks that Super Rugby is staggering, if not dying, unless
serious changes are made. So of course I'll ring old
(01:12):
mate Peter keenup and go. Is he onto something here?
It's odd that he'd come out and say it and
be so forthright in his statement, But I suppose it's
worth being like that because it's a very serious subject
for rugby here in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Well, Super Rugby is very serious topic for us in
particular as owners and for the franchises in New Zealand.
But first of all, I think the point is that
we totally believe in Super Rugby. Still it is a
great competition. Can it be better? Absolutely, it can be better.
Did Malcolm have points in his article? Absolutely? I know Malcolm.
(01:48):
Malcolm is very new, as he said, into Super Rugby,
but he's not new into business. So there's a lot
of parallels between business and rugby because they do have
clearly a.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Business part to them.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
So I think it's fantastic that we have a new
broom coming in and looking at this and Malcolm it
helps us rethink where we're going. But we also we're
aware that Super Rugby could be better, so that that
would be the first thing I'd to say. But before
we can change, we have to put up a case
(02:22):
for change. So there's lots of tentacles, I guess, And
in the Super Rugby area we have the the ended
r PA, Rugby Australia and the like, So it's up
to us as Super Rugby to come up for the
case for change before we can change.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I believe amongst the group, the owners or the part
owners of these franchises, and you said you talk to
Malcolm the other concerned parties, is there a sense, is
there a feeling that this is the way to go
and things need to change? And I say that based
on the Canary and the gold mine, which is more
(03:00):
and Pussyfeker and of course the rebels, this is not
something we're making up. This is something that really has
to be addressed. Is that a general feeling amongst you owners.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
It's a general feeling that the you know, if we
have a new looking Super rugby competition, it has to
be investable for investors.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
So I think the point Malcolm was.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Making is currently it's very hard to be profitable in
the Super Rugby set up the way it is currently now.
Most of the people haven't come into to make rivers
of gold, that's for sure, but they're all canny and
very intelligent investors who are involved. So to attract more
investors and to allow for more investment into rugby and
(03:44):
Super Rugby in particular, to do that, we need to
make it investable.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
We can't just keep saying.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
To people want it. We want you to come in
because it's a charitable thing. So that's the opportunity we have.
We need innovation to happen in the in the game itself.
We need innovation in the competition, and I think, to me,
looking at it, it's sort of boiling the ocean.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It is pretty tough to get massive change.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Like Malcolm, I think he said himself that to change
everything would probably be nigh and possible straight away. So
I would say that instead of boiling the ocean, we
start with the billy or start with the jug and
get change. But I really do keep coming back to
the fact that the Super Rugby competition needs to be
seen as more attractive and more investable from a business
(04:31):
point of view. From the rugby side of things, I
still believe that there's lots of very good things happening
on the rugby paddocks, some fantastic games. Rugby is something
very deare to most New Zealander's hard so I think
they're probably not that interested in the back office musics,
I'm saying, Joe public. But back to Malcolm's article, he
(04:55):
has made some very good points and as I say,
we're catching up with Malcolm this weekend, so there's certainly
things that we can do better and we are looking
at it.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Model that's been around for such a long time as
very much a pyramid, and it was aimed at looking
at the best for n z R E. The All
Blacks at all points up. Is that for purpose anymore?
That concept should all these clubs, these franchises be only
around as feeder teams to the All Blacks, because that's
(05:29):
how it started, right.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
It is how it started.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
I think there's still an element of that because you
know New Zealand Rugby, the All Blacks are still our
pinnacle team, but we also love and are very passionate
about our own respective franchises and as are the fans,
so there has to be an element of developing those players.
High performance is key to Super Rugby, so it's different too.
(05:55):
I guess AFL Rugby League in lots of ways is
that the pinnacle for a lot of players in rugby
league is probably state of origin. If they're eligible rugby union,
it's clearly the All Blacks. So Super Rugby still has
to play a role in that. But as you said,
is it still fit for purpose? Still fit for purpose
(06:17):
for us to provide all blacks for sure and to
make sure our high performance part is up to scratch.
Is the competition still fit for purpose in terms of
the back office stuff. Well, that's for us to have
this case for change to take to New Zealand Rugby, RPA,
Rugby Australia, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Ns are do you believe now there's been a number
of changes at a top level. We still don't know
who the CEO is, but there's been adjustments, no doubt
about that.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Do you think they're.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Open to a challenge to their baby to try and
change the way things are going? They are they up
for that the best of your knowledge, pet of the
way they deal with their franchises.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
I do with the amount of change has been at
New Zealand Rugby, clearly they are up for change. There's
no doubt about that because there's been so much change.
So the timing might not be too bad for us
to have a conversation about what does that model look like?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
What is that case for change? So yeah, I do believe.
I believe that we'd be pushing on an open door.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's not a charity professional rugby. Maybe when it started.
It felt like it when Super Rugby started, but you
tached on them before. You're not doing this for the
love of the game of rugby. You need to turn
a profit. Now. That's not cutthroat, that's just a reality
of the professional sporting landscape, and we are seeing that
globally and almost we've got a bit of fomo fear
(07:48):
of missing out on what's going on around the rest
of the world. We can't sit still, We'll sink.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
We do all have a love of rugby, though the investors,
I would say that would be universal across the New
Zealand franchises. In the Australian franchises, that's for sure. But
as I said earlier, most of those people or all
of them, are very canny and smart investors, and they
also know that you have to get a return on investment,
so you can put money back into the Super Rugby,
(08:18):
into the high performance, into innovation and the like. So
it's not to make rivers and gold, as I said,
it is to actually enhance the competition, but to make
it profitable, because the more profitable of those, then the
more investors you'll get in and the more you can
invest back in the game.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
And then you're cooking with gas.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
You suggested before you're just starting boiling a kettle. Where
does your kettle start? What do you fill it with?
Is it player movement? Is it privatization? Is it transfer fees?
Is it where it's based? Is it the amount of
players you can bring from overseas and using Australian talent,
New Zealand talent. There are so many variables and paths
that you can go down. Primarily, what do you think
(09:00):
is the most important step Insiley, or would be for
you anyway?
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Peter Well, I believe that to make any change in
business or anywhere, you have to have a very structured
approach to it. There's no magic wand the structured approach
to me is having a strategic look at the whole
thing and then coming out with a structured approach to
make that case for change. And I wouldn't like to
(09:25):
pick which one was the most important right now, because
there would be remiss to me. I think I think
it's important just to get it, get it structurally right
and factually right. Before we do that, we.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Go to the water analogy again. You've got a great baby,
Maybe you want to empty the bath, but you don't
want to get rid of that baby. Now that you've
got to be very careful in that space because you
don't want to open yourself up to I suppose overseas
invaders it would be pretty keen to turn up and
see what they can pluck out of it. So you've
got a lot of responsibility around that space, Peter.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
In terms of them wanting to come in a vesta
in term of.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
The coming invest maybe put some controls in place with
the amount of money they're putting into that. It's an
area it is open to challenges from overseas money. Surely
you're going to be very cognizant of that.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Yeah, at the stage, that's something we're in control of.
So the old saying control the controllables, we are in control.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Of that at the moment.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
And so but if you've got the right people and
for the right reasons, So right now, I'm not talking
private equity, I'm just talking amongst the owners and clearly
the pus involved as that as well. And then you've
got New Zealand Rugby and as I say, you've got
others in this equation. So I don't see the corporate
(10:44):
raiders from overseas rushing to come into the space over
here at the moment.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's important to as you said, to control those controllers.
It's important to keep control of rugby here in New
Zealand with ns ARE, with the franchises. That's almost like
it's a non negotiable right.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Well, we also have to be are the fact that
Rugby Australia are part of this as well. So if
we're going to be considering this case for change, then
we need to enroll them some way and a discussion,
because you know, we don't want to just turn up
with something and say hey, this is it, because I
can't see that working.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And so the first step. It's great that we've had
the volleys fired by mister Gillies and you're all going
to be meeting on presuming at the New Stadium this
weekend to talk about this. And just one last thing.
This is not new from Malcolm. This doesn't come as
a surprise to any of you characters. This has been
(11:45):
a general mood of the franchises over the last couple
of years.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Well, I think, as I said before, the case for
Change is what we need to bring about and it's
how we do that, and it's you know the timing
of it, how do we bring it to fruition. So yeah,
but as I said, with a new person coming Malcolm
and new investor and new chairman, a very smart businessman
himself and clearly a very keen rugby man, it doesn't
(12:15):
do any harm to have a you know, either have
a different point of view or a similar point of view,
but maybe a bit more radical. So then you have
to go or are we thinking about this correctly? So
you know, no one's got a mortgage on good or
bad ideas.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And on that, Peter Kin, thank you very much for
sharing your thoughts on this always debatable subject. Let's look
forward to bigger, better things for and he's on rugby.
It's nice to know you're at the forefront. Thanks Peter.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Can't wait for super rugby around.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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