September 6, 2026 • 27 mins
Michelle Watt talks to Dana Carver about why investing in wellbeing is not just good for people, it's good for business.
Drawing on her experience running a dairy farm alongside her husband Tony, Dana shares how creating the right support systems around people can build resilience, improve decision-making, strengthen staff retention, and help create workplaces where individuals and teams can thrive.
Combining her background in psychology with the realities of everyday farming, Dana offers practical insights into what helps farm teams perform at their best and why taking a proactive approach to wellbeing is essential for long-term success.
Dana also speaks candidly about the pressures many women face in farming and the importance of sharing the load, both at work and at home. She reflects on the expectation for women to be "superwoman" and do it all and discusses why challenging these assumptions is critical for improving women's wellbeing and creating more sustainable farming businesses.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Being Farm Strong podcast. Real farmers, real stories. Powered
by the country.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to another episode in the Being Farm Strong series.
Today we're talking to Dana Carver, who has more than
30 years experience across health, psychology and organisational wellbeing. And
Principal Scarlatti, who helps organisations take practical, effective approaches to wellbeing.
And also the co-creator of Good Yarn Mental Health Literacy Programme.
Based on a dairy farm in Dunsando in Canterbury with
(00:30):
her husband Tony, they were both also the Canterbury Regional
Supreme Winners of the Balance Farm Environment Awards in 2020.
That's quite a long CV there, Dana. Welcome to the episode.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Thank you, Michelle.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And just to get started off, because we haven't actually
spoken to you on any of these Farm Strong podcasts before,
do you want to just explain a little about what
you do in the mental health space and your background
in rural mental.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Health for us? Yeah, sure. So originally was not rural focused.
So basically got my psychology degree in the early 90s,
where really nobody even talked about workplace well-being, even though
that was my passion back then. You had to do
what we called health by stealth. So you would basically
show up to things, not saying it was about workplace well-being,
(01:13):
calling it other things to get it into conferences and forums.
And it's just exciting to see 30 years later how
everybody's interested in this space. It was probably about just
about 20 years ago that I got into rural work. well-being,
which is basically because I went on a blind date
with a dairy farmer. And anybody who knows if you
(01:33):
do that, your whole life becomes dairy. So yeah, basically,
I grew up urban and ended up very immersed in
the dairy industry in New Zealand. And within a few years,
realized there was a real need for helping farmers' mental health.
And so I think it was 2014 that that I
got a job at Darien's Ed for an MPI-Fonterra shared
(01:58):
kind of funded program around farmer well-being, and that's how
it all started. And I have been working specifically in
the space for about 12 years, but really started doing
things kind of on the side maybe 20 years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And with organisational well-being, because looking after staff and employment
and all that sort of stuff and your employees within that,
In the rural space, have you seen a lot of
that going along with farms that you've been around in
those last few years as well?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
You mean seeing people or farm owners or employers taking
more of a focus on well-being?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yes, definitely. I mean, I'm seeing the whole country of
New Zealand paying attention to this, not just rural. So
it's definitely improved, but I'm still amazed at how... you
are putting resource towards it and to me that's where
the real commitment comes from so talking about it is
one thing but actually putting resource towards things like right
(03:00):
now it's all about identifying psychosocial risks and urban organisations
are doing that but I still go to conferences and
employers have never even heard of this in the rural
sector so we do have a long way to go
but definitely improved.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
And factors in the rural sector I guess are quite
different to ones that are say in an urban organisational
setting in the mental health space?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I mean, people are people, so not really. But I
guess in every job or every business, the specific risks
to our mental health are different. And so, yeah, for farming,
there's different risks and different protective factors. But I wouldn't
say that the work is in general harder or easier.
It's just the factors are different.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So what are some of the main factors that you've
seen that are different between, say, a dairy farm worker
and someone who's working in an office building?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, I guess the main risks on a dairy farm
are things around unsocial hours, having to work weekends when
other people are going to concerts and things like that.
You just feel sometimes like you're living a slightly different
life than the rest of the world. Also, I guess
it depends where your farm is. More and more farms
(04:09):
do have access, particularly dairy farms, to rural or urban centers,
but some are still quite remote, so it's that isolation risk.
Another big one is really just the weather. I mean,
and that brings a lot of ambiguity. You might have
a plan for the day, and the weather just changes
at all, and office jobs don't have to worry about that. However,
I think it's important to explain that working outdoors is
(04:32):
also a real protective factor. So being able to be
in the sunlight and the fresh air and even a
bit of rain is actually so good for us, and
people in offices are struggling because they're not getting out enough.
So there's positives and negatives.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Absolutely, and I actually study a little bit of psychology myself,
so I did an undergrad degree much lower than what
you've got on your wall. But sports psychology, and a
lot of it is about controlling the controllables, and I
guess the weather is one of those things that it's
about thinking about the things you can control, not the
things you can't.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, you definitely can't control the weather,
but you can have things in place, like as simple
as generators when it does get really bad. But I think...
It is about that waking up in the morning, seeing
the weather's changed, just saying, what is in my control?
And just being more curious about how the day is
(05:22):
going to go than immediately, oh, things haven't reached my expectations.
That can really spiral your well-being down.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And just looking at systems on farm and orchards and
things like that, what kind of things do you think
in terms of looking after people, what could rural people
do more in that space about looking after others?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
The biggest place where you can make a difference is rosters,
spending your time getting the right breaks for people. But
every farm is different for what works, and every person
is different. For example, we really working hard to get–
when we first started farming, it was really common for
people to be on 11 and 3s or 12 and
2 rosters. In Northland, we knew of people being on
(06:05):
21 days on, one day off. So it is rare
to see that stuff now, so that's a real positive thing.
But like we found that some of our families preferred
11 and 3. So when we moved our rosters to
like a 6 and 2, 5 and 2, some of
our people got really excited, but some of the families
loved having those three days off. So rosters are your
biggest win, but there isn't a standard way. You've got
(06:28):
to spend time with your teams to figure out what
the right thing is to do. And also the more
scale you have on form, the easier that is to do.
The smaller team you have, the harder.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And I guess, too, it's a bit like baking a
cake or making a recipe. Everyone's different. So it's about
getting the right ingredients in there so that your team
can perform at its best.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, no, that's right. And it has a lot to
do with, you know, a lot of our farms in
this country have multicultural teams as well. And so different
things are going to resonate different with different people. So
that's a whole other lens on it.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So you mentioned the rosters. So in your business, what
has looking after the well-being of others and workers on
your farm look like?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You mean outside of rosters?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, outside of rosters.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, so I guess there's a social side of it
is making sure that you have, I guess the way
to put it is micro social times and macro. So
for macro, we mean we always have a Christmas party
with all the families and We always have a big
HR day before calving where we have a whole way
of team building and we play games and do personality
profiling and then get set up with the systems for calving.
(07:33):
And then at a micro level, we have birthdays. So
everybody gets a birthday cake in the shed. I do
not bake them. When you said recipes before, I would
not know. I am the worst farmer's wife when it
comes to that. But we just buy them cakes, put
some lollies out, take them down. And that makes so.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Much of a difference.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I guess the other things are noticing when the team
is starting to get tired and deciding to bring in
pizzas in the evening. Or if you've had a really
hard five days of weather and you've pulled through and
the animals are all doing well and healthy and it's like, hey,
let's celebrate. Everybody come over to the house and have beers.
So I would say rosters is first. And then second,
(08:12):
it's just that reactive and routine social time. It's really important.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And I've done quite a few FarmStrong events in the
last wee while, one in particular called Gravel in Paradise,
which is a cycle race that goes all around the
district down here at different points in time, starting near
the end of the year and goes through until about February.
And one thing I noticed is all the farmers from
rural riders that come along, the workers, and the farmers
obviously give those workers the time off to do that stuff.
(08:39):
I'd imagine that's very important as well.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, absolutely. And also it goes back to the different
needs for different people. It's really understanding a team and
knowing what it is they love, what fills their bucket,
and making sure they have time for that. So one
of our guys is really active in the social rugby.
And so if they go to tournament, we need to
make sure he can be there because sometimes you don't
know until a week before. But other people, they're at
(09:04):
a time where they have young children and they're not
looking for events or sporting things. They just want to
know they can get home and have dinner with their family.
So I think it is about what's the most important
thing for them.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And the difference to this approach, like allowing people, I
guess you have happier employees. I mean, that was basically
a giant advertisement for people to send CVs to your farm,
I think, what you just told me you do for
all your workers. So prepare for an influx. But, you know,
you'll see a performance enhancement. I'd imagine people are happier.
They're happier to work. They're working more effectively.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, there are. I think the bigger deal, and this
is all quite linked, is that they stay. So, like,
as you say that, we stay. We only have maybe
max ever two new people coming on the year and
some years none. And we're quite a big farm. So
that's probably the biggest benefit is you don't have to
keep re-teaching people the systems. And people are happier because...
(10:00):
they know the system and you don't constantly have new
people coming on board. Although having new people on board
is nice, but that one or two a year is
quite nice. So I think the efficiency and the effectiveness
does come from them being more happy, but I think
it comes more from having low turnover, to be honest.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And with these systems, they should be, how can farmers
build them into their practice? So when you're building up
your plan for your workers and things like that, how
can you build that into your system planning for your
workers so that they know what's going on, you know
what's going on?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
When you say build it in, do you mean like
wellbeing initiatives?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, so just part of the plan of the overall farm.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that you build, I mean,
systems themselves bring wellbeing, right? So So having systems that
don't change on people all the time, that you know work,
that everybody understands where to go to figure out the
system if you're confused or who to ask, that alone
just is one of the biggest protective factors you can
(11:03):
have on a farm. But I feel like well-being initiatives
themselves probably don't link in specifically to the systems except
for maybe breaks, you know, making sure that people take
breaks at right times. But even that, it's really hard
to have routine breaks in farming. I would say it's
more about the culture of encouraging people to speak up,
(11:26):
ask when they don't understand, tell us if they're needing
a day off in the middle of calving. Those kind
of things is much more important than embedding it in
the systems.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Absolutely. I agree with you. That whole culture of creating
a space where people are comfortable and saying, hey, I
need a day off. I'm really tired or whatever. I've
been working really hard or I need time off for this.
Being comfortable enough to say that, to know that you're
not going to get sort of, I don't want to
use the term raked over the coals, but it's the
only one I can think of at the moment, or
made to feel lazy or that you're not doing enough
(11:58):
is actually really important for people's wellbeing, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
It is. And I think a lot of people are
worried if they create that culture, then people are just
going to slag off and constantly want the day off.
And actually the research is showing that only about 12%
of people will milk a system or a culture like that.
Pardon the pun. Um, and so I don't think we
should be thinking if we give people the license to say, Hey,
I need the day off. Everyone's going to go take
(12:23):
the Mickey. I really don't. But it also depends on
your culture. So if it's a good culture where you
respect your people and your people respect you, they won't
do that. But if you just take a bad culture
where people are, have, um, poor systems and they feel
like they're getting yelled at every day. And then you
were to say, Hey, if you're having a hard day,
you can have it off. They might take six off
in a row. So you've got to give a little
(12:44):
bit at that macro level if you want those small
decisions to work as well. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, absolutely. I think if people feel comfortable in the
environment they're in, they definitely operate better. And there's less
risk as well, like you were saying about people saying
when they're uncomfortable or something's not right. It's really important,
especially even from a safety standpoint on a farm, for
people to be able to feel like they can speak
up about things.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, I agree. And I feel one of the things
we do is we really encourage people to look after
each other, like notice when someone's really tired. Like our
unit managers are really good at that. They're naturally good
with people, and they notice if somebody's really tired. Because
even if you create the license to do that, a
lot of people have really high work ethic, and they
(13:30):
just won't. So it's about saying, hey, you know what?
You look exhausted. Would you like a day off?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Absolutely. And these type of things, how do they show up?
on the farm in general with retention, decision-making, teamwork, resilience,
and things under pressure? Because obviously farm spaces can be
quite high-pressure environments, especially around calving, lambing. At the moment
on the orchards with what's going on with the weather
and stuff like that, how does it show up when
the workers feel supported?
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, I guess I would talk to the retention. So
seven or eight years ago, I couldn't have said that
we were only having one or two new people a year.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
So it takes a.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
While as you start to embed these things. So the
retention is wonderful. I guess as far as the production
on farm, yeah, I think every year as the team
gets stronger and they work better together and they have
a safer environment and that trust just creates every year
(14:26):
and builds, we're also seeing we're reaching our targets faster.
Our production is going up. Our reproduction rates are better.
Like it's all just one big ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I can't give you an example day-to-day because I don't
work day-to-day on the farm anymore, but I can tell
you when I meet with the guys, when I listen,
when I watch our targets, that everything just snowballs into
a better place, both for the farm and for the people.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And just heading into a different space now, something that
I'm very passionate about, Dana, is women's mental health, especially rural.
There's a lot of research coming out about that now
because obviously a lot of stuff has been targeted towards
men and getting men to talk, which is great. changing
that narrative for them. Growing up, a lot of them
didn't talk about their feelings, and now they are, which
is fantastic. But for women, they're often the glue that
(15:13):
holds the farm together, and they're often doing lots of
little jobs all over the place, looking after everyone's needs
except their own. How important is it for a female
to say, hey, I need some me time, or the
main caregiver maybe to say, hey, I need some me time.
I need to do something for myself.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
You might regret asking me this one. because I've just
finished doing a big piece of work for the horticulture
industry and women in Hort. And I also have some
very strong opinions on this, but if you want to
go down that road.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
No, let's, let's do it. I'm interested.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Absolutely. So I actually don't think it lies with the women.
I think we've been doing that for a long time
saying that women need to speak up, but the research,
and I know this was Hort, but I see it
in dairy as well. We've still got a long way
to go on the biases on women. And again, we're
going to have to remove those things if we expect
women to not try to run around and be super superwoman.
(16:06):
So I think it's about other people saying, I don't
think it's acceptable for you to have to be responsible
for the house, the kids, the calves, the wages, all
of that stuff, the cognitive switching that has to happen
there and the And then I think there's something that
(16:27):
happens in society where men go and, oh, you're amazing.
You're so amazing because you do all that. And so
then we as women try to feed into that where
actually it is just impossible to completely raise a family together.
at the same time that you're running a farm and
a lot of women also have a career. So they're
(16:49):
expected to do the career and help on the farm,
but you don't actually see the men also helping with
the woman's career. And there's a big generalization, but I
really think we have to stop at every angle and say,
not just you should step up and say it's too much,
but you shouldn't even put that pressure on yourself.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
A hundred percent. I've had this conversation with DM Parks
as well. And we came to the same conclusion that
It's something that more needs to be noticed by others,
not just to be told. And that pressure of females
taking on everything, and this isn't just for rural women either.
I feel like I know a lot of urban friends
of mine that are in the same boat that just
take on so much. And I don't know how they do.
(17:30):
It's insane how they do all of it. Like you said,
it's impossible. But you just carry on because that's the
way that life's always been.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Exactly. But I also think, and this is really going
to be daring of me to say this, but we
also I see this more outside of rural, more in urban,
but we get greedy as women. And I don't think
it's fair on organizations to, you know, we say we
want to raise our kids. Now, there's a lot of
women who are good at putting their kids into daycare
and using help. But there's a lot of women that
(17:59):
are like, my child needs me. It will be the
first thing, number one priority for me, which is wonderful
if that's what they choose. But then it becomes the
organization's problem when they're not available, they can't do their
job like they used to do before they had kids,
and the organization can't say anything about that because it
looks bad. But the bottom line is if you're not
(18:21):
going to find people to help look after the kids,
you're not willing to put them in daycare. You can't
expect the organization to hold jobs for you and to–
pay you the same when you're doing half the work. Now,
what do you think of that, Michelle? Do you think
that's a big call?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I actually agree with you somewhat because I think we
have been taught as women that you can do it all.
And there's all these examples out there of women who
probably have help on the side doing it all, like
having the career, having the children, all that sort of stuff.
But you don't have to. And I think that narrative
is okay. Like you were saying, it's okay to want
(19:00):
to not do it all.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It's absolutely okay. It's okay to be a career woman
and say, hey, my kids are going in daycare and
I'm not ashamed of that. It takes a village to
raise a child. It's also okay to say, I'm going
to set my career on the side for a while.
But I also think that men need to step up
because if men would do as much as the women
at home, then women could be. But it's also not
(19:24):
always the men's fault because the women don't want to
let go. And then that's not our fault because we
have oxytocin in our system, which makes us want to.
to care and nurture. So it's a really tricky one,
but I remember when Jacinda first said she was pregnant
and everybody was having their opinions and I thought, the
key is going to be Clark. So if this works,
(19:45):
Clark will take on the parenting role. And if you
watch that video, have you seen it, Michelle?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
No, I haven't actually watched the documentary. Apparently it's very good.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
And I'm not getting into politics. I'm not saying whether
I favor labor or national. It's nothing about it. But
you watch that documentary and he's behind with a pram.
He's there feeding the baby. He's there in the house
doing the laundry. And that's why Jacinda succeeded at being
a prime minister with a baby is because the man
did it at home. And so it's like, if we're
(20:17):
going to want to do both, we've got to marry
men who want to do both and we need to
let them help.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And I think it's a team effort, isn't it? And
like you're saying, the letting them help is the big thing.
I think we're all terrible. We're all terrible at this,
regardless of whether you have children or not. Seeing some
washing on the ground and saying, oh, just wash that.
or I'll just fold that or I'll just hang that
out or I'll just wipe that table without sort of
thinking about it. But you're not, you're kind of enabling
(20:44):
the whole thing by doing that, aren't you?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah, but I do think chemically we're set up to
do that. So that's in our defense. But, and yes,
there's a lot of research that shows that a woman
has stronger intuition to the baby. But I know a
lot of, people that have been raised by men, primarily
as their caregiver, and they've turned into wonderful people. So
we need to believe that men can do this and
men need to step up and do it. And that's
(21:07):
how we're going to get there. Not just women saying, hey,
this is too much today and I need a break.
It's bigger than that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
And stepping away from all that, what do you do
to keep yourself well, Dana? I'm sure that you're interested
in exercise, I feel.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Oh, it's interesting you say that because I used to
be a personal trainer. I used to have my own studio.
And so it was a really big part of my life.
It's not so much anymore. Now that I'm getting into
my mid-50s, too much exercise is actually quite hard on
my body. And I think there's a real thin line
between using exercise to stay healthy and actually doing too much.
(21:45):
So I'm quite opinionated on that as well. So I
do try to get my 10,000 steps a day. I
do 10 minutes of yoga every morning. And I do meditation. Oh,
and I do weights probably about twice a week. But
I don't do any more running or hard, hard cardio
in the body because I find that it actually makes
my day harder. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
It can do, isn't it? I think it's about fitting
into what you can fit in during the day. I
used to be a personal trainer too, actually. Fun fact
for you, Dana. Really? Yeah. And people used to at
a women's gym for part of it, and they used
to ask me how I fit everything in. Now, back
then I was– you know, in my 30s probably. So
it was easy for me to fit everything in. But
now it's a little bit harder. And I always say
(22:27):
to them, just do what you can. Even if it's
a 10 minute walk around the block, if you want
to do exercise as your outlet, that's enough. You don't
need to do anything. You don't need to go run marathons.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, exactly. But if you love it, if you get
joy from that. But I just do see a lot
of people getting into exercise regimes that just become another
pressure and another thing where they set targets and another
thing where they put pressure on themselves. So I think
the question is, What I'm talking to my children or
people I work with that are younger than me is,
is it making you feel more relaxed or more invigorated
(22:59):
than do it? But pay close attention if it's starting
to make you actually more tired.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
And that's such great advice, I think. Anything that brings
you joy, keep doing. That's what I say. So you've
been a FarmStrong advocate right from the start, and some
of the resources were actually filmed on your farm. So
why did you get behind FarmStrong?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Well, I guess two reasons. I guess the main reason
was it was my job. So when I took the
job with Dairy and Zed, it was a farmer well-being program.
We were there to support current initiatives or create things
where there were gaps. And so immediately, FarmStrong was just starting.
I met Jared Vaughn and realized that we don't want
to double up because this is great. So we just
(23:41):
started promoting FarmStrong within dairy from the beginning. And.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I can't even remember how they ended up on our farm.
I think they just needed a farm. And Tony, my husband,
is really happy to talk about how he tries to
eat well and stay active. And it was a really
great day. Sam Whitelock came out.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And it's quite funny. He's on our wall. You know
how you have a wall where you measure the kids
as they get older and you draw a little pencil
mark for the date? And he saw it. And so
we put him up there. And probably twice a month
people come in our kitchen and say, is that actually
Sam Whitelock on your wall? it's always a great chance
(24:18):
to say yep and because of farm strong and you
should check out.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
The website that's so cool i've met sam whitelock at
uh field days this year and stood next to him
and i have to say i pretty much only came
up to his elbow i think he had to bend
right down to talk to me so i felt incredibly.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Small yeah yeah no it's next level tall.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And uh finally what does farm strong mean to you
and what do you hope the program can achieve moving
forward where do you see it heading.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
First, I just want to say that it's amazing what
it has done so far. Many of these initiatives start
and they don't last. And I think that the foresight
that Jared Vaughn has had and that the sponsors have
had and Sam Whitelock being an ambassador for so long
is just really unique and special. So I'm very excited
to see where it's going to go. Right now, I
know it's moving into horticulture. And I think and it's
(25:09):
definitely done a lot for women, women's videos. So I
think it's still about spreading the word. So I'm blown
away by the endurance and the quality of the services
and product. But I still don't think enough people know
about Farming Trump. So what I'm excited about is figuring
out how to just double the amount of people that
(25:32):
have it front of mind.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
It's such a great program. The tools that are in
there too can be pretty much used by anyone. They're
not just, I mean, the stories are rural based. But
the tools that are in there could be used by anyone,
urban or rural, to help take care of your mental health.
They just span across. And the stories are fantastic in
those books. I mean, the horticultural book, Live Well, Grow Well,
has just come out. There's some fantastic stories in there.
(25:55):
There's also the Being Farm Strong, the original one, or
Getting Through, which is a fantastic resource as well. But
that website is absolutely incredible. And I love nothing more.
I'm like you, going to the events that I go to,
like Gravel in Paradise, and talking to the Farm Strong
farmers that come up and ride in their Farm Strong
category in those races. It's so neat, and it's just
great to meet everybody.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
It is. It's a wonderful initiative. New Zealand's really lucky
to have it, and I agree with you. It's there
for anyone. It's called Farm Strong, but it's people strong.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Absolutely. Great way to finish that off. Thank you so much, Dana,
for your time today. And I look forward to catching
up with you again in the future. Thanks, Michelle.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Have a good day.
The Being Farm Strong podcast. Real farmers, real stories. Powered
by the country.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to another episode in the Being Farm Strong series.
Today we're talking to Dana Carver, who has more than
30 years experience across health, psychology and organisational wellbeing. And
Principal Scarlatti, who helps organisations take practical, effective approaches to wellbeing.
And also the co-creator of Good Yarn Mental Health Literacy Programme.
Based on a dairy farm in Dunsando in Canterbury with
(00:30):
her husband Tony, they were both also the Canterbury Regional
Supreme Winners of the Balance Farm Environment Awards in 2020.
That's quite a long CV there, Dana. Welcome to the episode.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Thank you, Michelle.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And just to get started off, because we haven't actually
spoken to you on any of these Farm Strong podcasts before,
do you want to just explain a little about what
you do in the mental health space and your background
in rural mental.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Health for us? Yeah, sure. So originally was not rural focused.
So basically got my psychology degree in the early 90s,
where really nobody even talked about workplace well-being, even though
that was my passion back then. You had to do
what we called health by stealth. So you would basically
show up to things, not saying it was about workplace well-being,
(01:13):
calling it other things to get it into conferences and forums.
And it's just exciting to see 30 years later how
everybody's interested in this space. It was probably about just
about 20 years ago that I got into rural work. well-being,
which is basically because I went on a blind date
with a dairy farmer. And anybody who knows if you
(01:33):
do that, your whole life becomes dairy. So yeah, basically,
I grew up urban and ended up very immersed in
the dairy industry in New Zealand. And within a few years,
realized there was a real need for helping farmers' mental health.
And so I think it was 2014 that that I
got a job at Darien's Ed for an MPI-Fonterra shared
(01:58):
kind of funded program around farmer well-being, and that's how
it all started. And I have been working specifically in
the space for about 12 years, but really started doing
things kind of on the side maybe 20 years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And with organisational well-being, because looking after staff and employment
and all that sort of stuff and your employees within that,
In the rural space, have you seen a lot of
that going along with farms that you've been around in
those last few years as well?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
You mean seeing people or farm owners or employers taking
more of a focus on well-being?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yes, definitely. I mean, I'm seeing the whole country of
New Zealand paying attention to this, not just rural. So
it's definitely improved, but I'm still amazed at how... you
are putting resource towards it and to me that's where
the real commitment comes from so talking about it is
one thing but actually putting resource towards things like right
(03:00):
now it's all about identifying psychosocial risks and urban organisations
are doing that but I still go to conferences and
employers have never even heard of this in the rural
sector so we do have a long way to go
but definitely improved.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
And factors in the rural sector I guess are quite
different to ones that are say in an urban organisational
setting in the mental health space?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I mean, people are people, so not really. But I
guess in every job or every business, the specific risks
to our mental health are different. And so, yeah, for farming,
there's different risks and different protective factors. But I wouldn't
say that the work is in general harder or easier.
It's just the factors are different.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So what are some of the main factors that you've
seen that are different between, say, a dairy farm worker
and someone who's working in an office building?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, I guess the main risks on a dairy farm
are things around unsocial hours, having to work weekends when
other people are going to concerts and things like that.
You just feel sometimes like you're living a slightly different
life than the rest of the world. Also, I guess
it depends where your farm is. More and more farms
(04:09):
do have access, particularly dairy farms, to rural or urban centers,
but some are still quite remote, so it's that isolation risk.
Another big one is really just the weather. I mean,
and that brings a lot of ambiguity. You might have
a plan for the day, and the weather just changes
at all, and office jobs don't have to worry about that. However,
I think it's important to explain that working outdoors is
(04:32):
also a real protective factor. So being able to be
in the sunlight and the fresh air and even a
bit of rain is actually so good for us, and
people in offices are struggling because they're not getting out enough.
So there's positives and negatives.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Absolutely, and I actually study a little bit of psychology myself,
so I did an undergrad degree much lower than what
you've got on your wall. But sports psychology, and a
lot of it is about controlling the controllables, and I
guess the weather is one of those things that it's
about thinking about the things you can control, not the
things you can't.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, you definitely can't control the weather,
but you can have things in place, like as simple
as generators when it does get really bad. But I think...
It is about that waking up in the morning, seeing
the weather's changed, just saying, what is in my control?
And just being more curious about how the day is
(05:22):
going to go than immediately, oh, things haven't reached my expectations.
That can really spiral your well-being down.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And just looking at systems on farm and orchards and
things like that, what kind of things do you think
in terms of looking after people, what could rural people
do more in that space about looking after others?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
The biggest place where you can make a difference is rosters,
spending your time getting the right breaks for people. But
every farm is different for what works, and every person
is different. For example, we really working hard to get–
when we first started farming, it was really common for
people to be on 11 and 3s or 12 and
2 rosters. In Northland, we knew of people being on
(06:05):
21 days on, one day off. So it is rare
to see that stuff now, so that's a real positive thing.
But like we found that some of our families preferred
11 and 3. So when we moved our rosters to
like a 6 and 2, 5 and 2, some of
our people got really excited, but some of the families
loved having those three days off. So rosters are your
biggest win, but there isn't a standard way. You've got
(06:28):
to spend time with your teams to figure out what
the right thing is to do. And also the more
scale you have on form, the easier that is to do.
The smaller team you have, the harder.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And I guess, too, it's a bit like baking a
cake or making a recipe. Everyone's different. So it's about
getting the right ingredients in there so that your team
can perform at its best.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, no, that's right. And it has a lot to
do with, you know, a lot of our farms in
this country have multicultural teams as well. And so different
things are going to resonate different with different people. So
that's a whole other lens on it.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So you mentioned the rosters. So in your business, what
has looking after the well-being of others and workers on
your farm look like?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You mean outside of rosters?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, outside of rosters.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, so I guess there's a social side of it
is making sure that you have, I guess the way
to put it is micro social times and macro. So
for macro, we mean we always have a Christmas party
with all the families and We always have a big
HR day before calving where we have a whole way
of team building and we play games and do personality
profiling and then get set up with the systems for calving.
(07:33):
And then at a micro level, we have birthdays. So
everybody gets a birthday cake in the shed. I do
not bake them. When you said recipes before, I would
not know. I am the worst farmer's wife when it
comes to that. But we just buy them cakes, put
some lollies out, take them down. And that makes so.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Much of a difference.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I guess the other things are noticing when the team
is starting to get tired and deciding to bring in
pizzas in the evening. Or if you've had a really
hard five days of weather and you've pulled through and
the animals are all doing well and healthy and it's like, hey,
let's celebrate. Everybody come over to the house and have beers.
So I would say rosters is first. And then second,
(08:12):
it's just that reactive and routine social time. It's really important.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And I've done quite a few FarmStrong events in the
last wee while, one in particular called Gravel in Paradise,
which is a cycle race that goes all around the
district down here at different points in time, starting near
the end of the year and goes through until about February.
And one thing I noticed is all the farmers from
rural riders that come along, the workers, and the farmers
obviously give those workers the time off to do that stuff.
(08:39):
I'd imagine that's very important as well.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, absolutely. And also it goes back to the different
needs for different people. It's really understanding a team and
knowing what it is they love, what fills their bucket,
and making sure they have time for that. So one
of our guys is really active in the social rugby.
And so if they go to tournament, we need to
make sure he can be there because sometimes you don't
know until a week before. But other people, they're at
(09:04):
a time where they have young children and they're not
looking for events or sporting things. They just want to
know they can get home and have dinner with their family.
So I think it is about what's the most important
thing for them.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And the difference to this approach, like allowing people, I
guess you have happier employees. I mean, that was basically
a giant advertisement for people to send CVs to your farm,
I think, what you just told me you do for
all your workers. So prepare for an influx. But, you know,
you'll see a performance enhancement. I'd imagine people are happier.
They're happier to work. They're working more effectively.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, there are. I think the bigger deal, and this
is all quite linked, is that they stay. So, like,
as you say that, we stay. We only have maybe
max ever two new people coming on the year and
some years none. And we're quite a big farm. So
that's probably the biggest benefit is you don't have to
keep re-teaching people the systems. And people are happier because...
(10:00):
they know the system and you don't constantly have new
people coming on board. Although having new people on board
is nice, but that one or two a year is
quite nice. So I think the efficiency and the effectiveness
does come from them being more happy, but I think
it comes more from having low turnover, to be honest.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And with these systems, they should be, how can farmers
build them into their practice? So when you're building up
your plan for your workers and things like that, how
can you build that into your system planning for your
workers so that they know what's going on, you know
what's going on?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
When you say build it in, do you mean like
wellbeing initiatives?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, so just part of the plan of the overall farm.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that you build, I mean,
systems themselves bring wellbeing, right? So So having systems that
don't change on people all the time, that you know work,
that everybody understands where to go to figure out the
system if you're confused or who to ask, that alone
just is one of the biggest protective factors you can
(11:03):
have on a farm. But I feel like well-being initiatives
themselves probably don't link in specifically to the systems except
for maybe breaks, you know, making sure that people take
breaks at right times. But even that, it's really hard
to have routine breaks in farming. I would say it's
more about the culture of encouraging people to speak up,
(11:26):
ask when they don't understand, tell us if they're needing
a day off in the middle of calving. Those kind
of things is much more important than embedding it in
the systems.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Absolutely. I agree with you. That whole culture of creating
a space where people are comfortable and saying, hey, I
need a day off. I'm really tired or whatever. I've
been working really hard or I need time off for this.
Being comfortable enough to say that, to know that you're
not going to get sort of, I don't want to
use the term raked over the coals, but it's the
only one I can think of at the moment, or
made to feel lazy or that you're not doing enough
(11:58):
is actually really important for people's wellbeing, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
It is. And I think a lot of people are
worried if they create that culture, then people are just
going to slag off and constantly want the day off.
And actually the research is showing that only about 12%
of people will milk a system or a culture like that.
Pardon the pun. Um, and so I don't think we
should be thinking if we give people the license to say, Hey,
I need the day off. Everyone's going to go take
(12:23):
the Mickey. I really don't. But it also depends on
your culture. So if it's a good culture where you
respect your people and your people respect you, they won't
do that. But if you just take a bad culture
where people are, have, um, poor systems and they feel
like they're getting yelled at every day. And then you
were to say, Hey, if you're having a hard day,
you can have it off. They might take six off
in a row. So you've got to give a little
(12:44):
bit at that macro level if you want those small
decisions to work as well. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, absolutely. I think if people feel comfortable in the
environment they're in, they definitely operate better. And there's less
risk as well, like you were saying about people saying
when they're uncomfortable or something's not right. It's really important,
especially even from a safety standpoint on a farm, for
people to be able to feel like they can speak
up about things.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, I agree. And I feel one of the things
we do is we really encourage people to look after
each other, like notice when someone's really tired. Like our
unit managers are really good at that. They're naturally good
with people, and they notice if somebody's really tired. Because
even if you create the license to do that, a
lot of people have really high work ethic, and they
(13:30):
just won't. So it's about saying, hey, you know what?
You look exhausted. Would you like a day off?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Absolutely. And these type of things, how do they show up?
on the farm in general with retention, decision-making, teamwork, resilience,
and things under pressure? Because obviously farm spaces can be
quite high-pressure environments, especially around calving, lambing. At the moment
on the orchards with what's going on with the weather
and stuff like that, how does it show up when
the workers feel supported?
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, I guess I would talk to the retention. So
seven or eight years ago, I couldn't have said that
we were only having one or two new people a year.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
So it takes a.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
While as you start to embed these things. So the
retention is wonderful. I guess as far as the production
on farm, yeah, I think every year as the team
gets stronger and they work better together and they have
a safer environment and that trust just creates every year
(14:26):
and builds, we're also seeing we're reaching our targets faster.
Our production is going up. Our reproduction rates are better.
Like it's all just one big ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I can't give you an example day-to-day because I don't
work day-to-day on the farm anymore, but I can tell
you when I meet with the guys, when I listen,
when I watch our targets, that everything just snowballs into
a better place, both for the farm and for the people.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And just heading into a different space now, something that
I'm very passionate about, Dana, is women's mental health, especially rural.
There's a lot of research coming out about that now
because obviously a lot of stuff has been targeted towards
men and getting men to talk, which is great. changing
that narrative for them. Growing up, a lot of them
didn't talk about their feelings, and now they are, which
is fantastic. But for women, they're often the glue that
(15:13):
holds the farm together, and they're often doing lots of
little jobs all over the place, looking after everyone's needs
except their own. How important is it for a female
to say, hey, I need some me time, or the
main caregiver maybe to say, hey, I need some me time.
I need to do something for myself.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
You might regret asking me this one. because I've just
finished doing a big piece of work for the horticulture
industry and women in Hort. And I also have some
very strong opinions on this, but if you want to
go down that road.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
No, let's, let's do it. I'm interested.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Absolutely. So I actually don't think it lies with the women.
I think we've been doing that for a long time
saying that women need to speak up, but the research,
and I know this was Hort, but I see it
in dairy as well. We've still got a long way
to go on the biases on women. And again, we're
going to have to remove those things if we expect
women to not try to run around and be super superwoman.
(16:06):
So I think it's about other people saying, I don't
think it's acceptable for you to have to be responsible
for the house, the kids, the calves, the wages, all
of that stuff, the cognitive switching that has to happen
there and the And then I think there's something that
(16:27):
happens in society where men go and, oh, you're amazing.
You're so amazing because you do all that. And so
then we as women try to feed into that where
actually it is just impossible to completely raise a family together.
at the same time that you're running a farm and
a lot of women also have a career. So they're
(16:49):
expected to do the career and help on the farm,
but you don't actually see the men also helping with
the woman's career. And there's a big generalization, but I
really think we have to stop at every angle and say,
not just you should step up and say it's too much,
but you shouldn't even put that pressure on yourself.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
A hundred percent. I've had this conversation with DM Parks
as well. And we came to the same conclusion that
It's something that more needs to be noticed by others,
not just to be told. And that pressure of females
taking on everything, and this isn't just for rural women either.
I feel like I know a lot of urban friends
of mine that are in the same boat that just
take on so much. And I don't know how they do.
(17:30):
It's insane how they do all of it. Like you said,
it's impossible. But you just carry on because that's the
way that life's always been.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Exactly. But I also think, and this is really going
to be daring of me to say this, but we
also I see this more outside of rural, more in urban,
but we get greedy as women. And I don't think
it's fair on organizations to, you know, we say we
want to raise our kids. Now, there's a lot of
women who are good at putting their kids into daycare
and using help. But there's a lot of women that
(17:59):
are like, my child needs me. It will be the
first thing, number one priority for me, which is wonderful
if that's what they choose. But then it becomes the
organization's problem when they're not available, they can't do their
job like they used to do before they had kids,
and the organization can't say anything about that because it
looks bad. But the bottom line is if you're not
(18:21):
going to find people to help look after the kids,
you're not willing to put them in daycare. You can't
expect the organization to hold jobs for you and to–
pay you the same when you're doing half the work. Now,
what do you think of that, Michelle? Do you think
that's a big call?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I actually agree with you somewhat because I think we
have been taught as women that you can do it all.
And there's all these examples out there of women who
probably have help on the side doing it all, like
having the career, having the children, all that sort of stuff.
But you don't have to. And I think that narrative
is okay. Like you were saying, it's okay to want
(19:00):
to not do it all.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It's absolutely okay. It's okay to be a career woman
and say, hey, my kids are going in daycare and
I'm not ashamed of that. It takes a village to
raise a child. It's also okay to say, I'm going
to set my career on the side for a while.
But I also think that men need to step up
because if men would do as much as the women
at home, then women could be. But it's also not
(19:24):
always the men's fault because the women don't want to
let go. And then that's not our fault because we
have oxytocin in our system, which makes us want to.
to care and nurture. So it's a really tricky one,
but I remember when Jacinda first said she was pregnant
and everybody was having their opinions and I thought, the
key is going to be Clark. So if this works,
(19:45):
Clark will take on the parenting role. And if you
watch that video, have you seen it, Michelle?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
No, I haven't actually watched the documentary. Apparently it's very good.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
And I'm not getting into politics. I'm not saying whether
I favor labor or national. It's nothing about it. But
you watch that documentary and he's behind with a pram.
He's there feeding the baby. He's there in the house
doing the laundry. And that's why Jacinda succeeded at being
a prime minister with a baby is because the man
did it at home. And so it's like, if we're
(20:17):
going to want to do both, we've got to marry
men who want to do both and we need to
let them help.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And I think it's a team effort, isn't it? And
like you're saying, the letting them help is the big thing.
I think we're all terrible. We're all terrible at this,
regardless of whether you have children or not. Seeing some
washing on the ground and saying, oh, just wash that.
or I'll just fold that or I'll just hang that
out or I'll just wipe that table without sort of
thinking about it. But you're not, you're kind of enabling
(20:44):
the whole thing by doing that, aren't you?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah, but I do think chemically we're set up to
do that. So that's in our defense. But, and yes,
there's a lot of research that shows that a woman
has stronger intuition to the baby. But I know a
lot of, people that have been raised by men, primarily
as their caregiver, and they've turned into wonderful people. So
we need to believe that men can do this and
men need to step up and do it. And that's
(21:07):
how we're going to get there. Not just women saying, hey,
this is too much today and I need a break.
It's bigger than that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
And stepping away from all that, what do you do
to keep yourself well, Dana? I'm sure that you're interested
in exercise, I feel.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Oh, it's interesting you say that because I used to
be a personal trainer. I used to have my own studio.
And so it was a really big part of my life.
It's not so much anymore. Now that I'm getting into
my mid-50s, too much exercise is actually quite hard on
my body. And I think there's a real thin line
between using exercise to stay healthy and actually doing too much.
(21:45):
So I'm quite opinionated on that as well. So I
do try to get my 10,000 steps a day. I
do 10 minutes of yoga every morning. And I do meditation. Oh,
and I do weights probably about twice a week. But
I don't do any more running or hard, hard cardio
in the body because I find that it actually makes
my day harder. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
It can do, isn't it? I think it's about fitting
into what you can fit in during the day. I
used to be a personal trainer too, actually. Fun fact
for you, Dana. Really? Yeah. And people used to at
a women's gym for part of it, and they used
to ask me how I fit everything in. Now, back
then I was– you know, in my 30s probably. So
it was easy for me to fit everything in. But
now it's a little bit harder. And I always say
(22:27):
to them, just do what you can. Even if it's
a 10 minute walk around the block, if you want
to do exercise as your outlet, that's enough. You don't
need to do anything. You don't need to go run marathons.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, exactly. But if you love it, if you get
joy from that. But I just do see a lot
of people getting into exercise regimes that just become another
pressure and another thing where they set targets and another
thing where they put pressure on themselves. So I think
the question is, What I'm talking to my children or
people I work with that are younger than me is,
is it making you feel more relaxed or more invigorated
(22:59):
than do it? But pay close attention if it's starting
to make you actually more tired.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
And that's such great advice, I think. Anything that brings
you joy, keep doing. That's what I say. So you've
been a FarmStrong advocate right from the start, and some
of the resources were actually filmed on your farm. So
why did you get behind FarmStrong?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Well, I guess two reasons. I guess the main reason
was it was my job. So when I took the
job with Dairy and Zed, it was a farmer well-being program.
We were there to support current initiatives or create things
where there were gaps. And so immediately, FarmStrong was just starting.
I met Jared Vaughn and realized that we don't want
to double up because this is great. So we just
(23:41):
started promoting FarmStrong within dairy from the beginning. And.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I can't even remember how they ended up on our farm.
I think they just needed a farm. And Tony, my husband,
is really happy to talk about how he tries to
eat well and stay active. And it was a really
great day. Sam Whitelock came out.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And it's quite funny. He's on our wall. You know
how you have a wall where you measure the kids
as they get older and you draw a little pencil
mark for the date? And he saw it. And so
we put him up there. And probably twice a month
people come in our kitchen and say, is that actually
Sam Whitelock on your wall? it's always a great chance
(24:18):
to say yep and because of farm strong and you
should check out.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
The website that's so cool i've met sam whitelock at
uh field days this year and stood next to him
and i have to say i pretty much only came
up to his elbow i think he had to bend
right down to talk to me so i felt incredibly.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Small yeah yeah no it's next level tall.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And uh finally what does farm strong mean to you
and what do you hope the program can achieve moving
forward where do you see it heading.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
First, I just want to say that it's amazing what
it has done so far. Many of these initiatives start
and they don't last. And I think that the foresight
that Jared Vaughn has had and that the sponsors have
had and Sam Whitelock being an ambassador for so long
is just really unique and special. So I'm very excited
to see where it's going to go. Right now, I
know it's moving into horticulture. And I think and it's
(25:09):
definitely done a lot for women, women's videos. So I
think it's still about spreading the word. So I'm blown
away by the endurance and the quality of the services
and product. But I still don't think enough people know
about Farming Trump. So what I'm excited about is figuring
out how to just double the amount of people that
(25:32):
have it front of mind.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
It's such a great program. The tools that are in
there too can be pretty much used by anyone. They're
not just, I mean, the stories are rural based. But
the tools that are in there could be used by anyone,
urban or rural, to help take care of your mental health.
They just span across. And the stories are fantastic in
those books. I mean, the horticultural book, Live Well, Grow Well,
has just come out. There's some fantastic stories in there.
(25:55):
There's also the Being Farm Strong, the original one, or
Getting Through, which is a fantastic resource as well. But
that website is absolutely incredible. And I love nothing more.
I'm like you, going to the events that I go to,
like Gravel in Paradise, and talking to the Farm Strong
farmers that come up and ride in their Farm Strong
category in those races. It's so neat, and it's just
great to meet everybody.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
It is. It's a wonderful initiative. New Zealand's really lucky
to have it, and I agree with you. It's there
for anyone. It's called Farm Strong, but it's people strong.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Absolutely. Great way to finish that off. Thank you so much, Dana,
for your time today. And I look forward to catching
up with you again in the future. Thanks, Michelle.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Have a good day.
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