September 7, 2026 • 7 mins
We congratulate Labour’s trade spokesman (and former Minister of Agriculture) for his party finally coming up with some agriculture policy, as leader Chris Hipkins says Labour will not campaign on pricing agricultural emissions. And just who is to blame for carbon farming gobbling up some of our productive pastoral, food-producing land?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Second day back on the tools here on the country,
and I was really looking forward to kicking off the
show today with an argument. But bugger it, I find
myself agreeing with the Labour Party. Here's their trade spokesperson,
Damien O'Connor. Good to see Chippy come out this morning,
Damien O'Connor, and say Labour would not campaign on pricing
(00:21):
agricultural emissions. Finally, the pennies dropped for your lot.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Look, you know, if you're agreeing with me, Jane, lucky
I'm sitting down, I would have fallen over. Look, the
ETS has been a bit of an nightmare. It was,
of course, the farmer's preferred option because we originally proposed
like a simple carbon tax. could have reinvested money back
into agriculture. Nonetheless, we've moved on. We've been through a
complex set of changes. The national government allowed in foreign
(00:51):
cheap credits, mucked up the market. We came back in.
We tried to, I guess, to recredit the market. And
it's been a bit of a muddle. And of course,
the forestry sector had always lobbied to get their credits
in as offsets. And That has meant that the price
from ETS hasn't changed behaviour. It means that we've had
(01:12):
more trees in the ground. Shane Jones with his billion
trees didn't help when we were negotiating in 2017. Nonetheless,
we need to make these changes.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, but you're rewriting history here, Damien O'Connor, because... Yes,
you are. This all came about with Jacinda and Shane
and their billion trees policy.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
No, look, the fact that we were having forest planted
for carbon, the fact that the carbon credits weren't worth
anything because National had let in the foreign cheap credits
meant that the market slumped, but we'd actually had forestry
generating carbon credits since the set-up of the ETS. It's
(01:53):
just that it did take off, yes. Shane Jones had
left the door open. Actually, the farmers could only invest
in production forests, not for carbon, but it was a
bit of both. So, yes, I accept that we had
a massive, you know, afforestation still below the levels that
we had in 1999. But nonetheless, there's a lot of
(02:14):
good dry stock farming opportunities land gone into trees when
it shouldn't. There's probably a bit of dairy land or
dry stock farming that's gone into dairy that shouldn't as well.
So there's a bit of muddled land use, and I
think we're going to work through that.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, okay, Damien, but I don't want to re-litigate history
myself here, but the difference between 1999 and what we
faced in the past half a dozen years or so
was that back in 99, we were planting trees, yes,
but we weren't planting high-quality trees. pastoral land and trees.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
No, no. There are some good farms that have gone
to trees. I accept that that is wrong. We put
in government, put millions of dollars to boost the wool industry.
That's starting to work now. We need dual income from
those dry stock farming operations. And, you know, we've got
good prices for beef at the moment. So it's kind
of moving in the right direction for dry stock. But
(03:07):
the absence of any real income meant that people just
sold out for trees.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Now, finally, as I said, Labour has come out with
some policy. Now, why didn't you do your poor old
ag spokesperson, Jo Luxton, a bit of a favour and
let her announce some of this ag policy on the
Q & A rural debate? She was hung out to dry.
They were laughing at her.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Oh, that's terrible. Look, it was a bit awkward for
Jo because there is some good policy in the pipeline.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, but Damien, we're only two months away from an election.
For God's sake, get your policy out there.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Oh, look, Jamie, I'm not in charge. You know, sometimes
I wish I was. Look, we've got a programme and
it is important that people get to see the policy
in a way that's not indigestible. Dump it all out
at once and no one will know what's out there.
So we will have some good policy coming out. It
is for a better New Zealand. We can't afford to have...
this current government carry on for another three years. It
(04:00):
would just be disastrous. Costs are going out of control.
We've got an economy that take away what's happening in
the rural sectors, and it's slumped. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
New Zealand's almost totally dependent on the primary sector. Now,
having watched the Q & A debate, and I think
of Steve Abel, Daniel Ebb, and who was the other one?
Poor old Joe. Heaven help us if your lot got
in charge. It would be the death of farming.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Oh, get over it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
No, I'm not getting over it. What did you make
of what Steve Abel was talking about?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Steve Abel was pointing out some very real issues that
are facing us into the future. There are some big
issues around nitrates in Canterbury and Southland and in the Waikato.
And if we don't address those, then the dairy industry
in particular is going to hit a brick wall, you know,
in about five to 10 years, if not sooner. And
we have to make sure that we have truly sustainable,
(04:55):
because people are investing billions of dollars, truly sustainable systems.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Also this morning, Chippy came out and said Labour is
fully committed to the Paris Agreement and will put New
Zealand on course to meet its targets. How are you
going to do that without pricing agricultural emissions?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Look, we're going to have to incentivise, and some of
that work is going on at the moment. We put
a couple of hundred million dollars into AgriZero as a
government when we were in, and some of that technology
is coming through. It's going to have to come through
pretty quickly. Farmers are going to have to take it
up if we are to reduce our ag emissions. But
(05:35):
across the rest of the economy, we've got to see
faster progress as well. So it is a big challenge
for us. But if we were to walk away from Paris,
people would just say, well, stuff you. You're not doing
your bit. We're burning in Europe. We've got these massive issues.
It's not just Nepal, but you wait and see some
of the other glaciers around the world. If we're not
doing our bit, we will be shut out of markets.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Okay, a final comment from Chippy, and I'm quoting him here.
He said, some large exporters were driving... this changed themselves, i.e.
emissions reductions, noting that Fonterra and Silver Fern Farms were
trying to reduce emissions. But the report goes on to
say these firms are struggling to meet their targets. Fonterra
(06:17):
is targeting a 30% reduction in emissions intensity by 2030
compared to 2018, yet as of 2025 had achieved just 3.8%
of a reduction. Yep.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
We're just going to have to try harder, aren't we?
We are all going to have to do that. Otherwise,
you know, if we talk about future generations and farming,
it's going to be a very, very sad place for
them to be. Not just the conditions that they face
farming because of the events like Gabriel, but also the
difficulty getting into markets where people will be saying, you've
(06:54):
got to help us reduce the impact of global warming.
And if you're not trying, then we'll go somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Hey, Damien, your ag policy sounds a bit like my
Secondary school reports must try harder.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, well, I think it's upon all of us to
try harder. And we can't reverse things overnight. We can't
make massive changes or revolution overnight, but we're going to
have to move in the right direction. And the current
government at the moment is moving in the wrong direction
for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Damien O'Connor, Labour's candidate for Waitaki. That's going to be
a really interesting race. Thanks for your time on The Country.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You're welcome. Thanks, Damien.
Second day back on the tools here on the country,
and I was really looking forward to kicking off the
show today with an argument. But bugger it, I find
myself agreeing with the Labour Party. Here's their trade spokesperson,
Damien O'Connor. Good to see Chippy come out this morning,
Damien O'Connor, and say Labour would not campaign on pricing
(00:21):
agricultural emissions. Finally, the pennies dropped for your lot.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Look, you know, if you're agreeing with me, Jane, lucky
I'm sitting down, I would have fallen over. Look, the
ETS has been a bit of an nightmare. It was,
of course, the farmer's preferred option because we originally proposed
like a simple carbon tax. could have reinvested money back
into agriculture. Nonetheless, we've moved on. We've been through a
complex set of changes. The national government allowed in foreign
(00:51):
cheap credits, mucked up the market. We came back in.
We tried to, I guess, to recredit the market. And
it's been a bit of a muddle. And of course,
the forestry sector had always lobbied to get their credits
in as offsets. And That has meant that the price
from ETS hasn't changed behaviour. It means that we've had
(01:12):
more trees in the ground. Shane Jones with his billion
trees didn't help when we were negotiating in 2017. Nonetheless,
we need to make these changes.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, but you're rewriting history here, Damien O'Connor, because... Yes,
you are. This all came about with Jacinda and Shane
and their billion trees policy.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
No, look, the fact that we were having forest planted
for carbon, the fact that the carbon credits weren't worth
anything because National had let in the foreign cheap credits
meant that the market slumped, but we'd actually had forestry
generating carbon credits since the set-up of the ETS. It's
(01:53):
just that it did take off, yes. Shane Jones had
left the door open. Actually, the farmers could only invest
in production forests, not for carbon, but it was a
bit of both. So, yes, I accept that we had
a massive, you know, afforestation still below the levels that
we had in 1999. But nonetheless, there's a lot of
(02:14):
good dry stock farming opportunities land gone into trees when
it shouldn't. There's probably a bit of dairy land or
dry stock farming that's gone into dairy that shouldn't as well.
So there's a bit of muddled land use, and I
think we're going to work through that.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, okay, Damien, but I don't want to re-litigate history
myself here, but the difference between 1999 and what we
faced in the past half a dozen years or so
was that back in 99, we were planting trees, yes,
but we weren't planting high-quality trees. pastoral land and trees.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
No, no. There are some good farms that have gone
to trees. I accept that that is wrong. We put
in government, put millions of dollars to boost the wool industry.
That's starting to work now. We need dual income from
those dry stock farming operations. And, you know, we've got
good prices for beef at the moment. So it's kind
of moving in the right direction for dry stock. But
(03:07):
the absence of any real income meant that people just
sold out for trees.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Now, finally, as I said, Labour has come out with
some policy. Now, why didn't you do your poor old
ag spokesperson, Jo Luxton, a bit of a favour and
let her announce some of this ag policy on the
Q & A rural debate? She was hung out to dry.
They were laughing at her.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Oh, that's terrible. Look, it was a bit awkward for
Jo because there is some good policy in the pipeline.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, but Damien, we're only two months away from an election.
For God's sake, get your policy out there.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Oh, look, Jamie, I'm not in charge. You know, sometimes
I wish I was. Look, we've got a programme and
it is important that people get to see the policy
in a way that's not indigestible. Dump it all out
at once and no one will know what's out there.
So we will have some good policy coming out. It
is for a better New Zealand. We can't afford to have...
this current government carry on for another three years. It
(04:00):
would just be disastrous. Costs are going out of control.
We've got an economy that take away what's happening in
the rural sectors, and it's slumped. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
New Zealand's almost totally dependent on the primary sector. Now,
having watched the Q & A debate, and I think
of Steve Abel, Daniel Ebb, and who was the other one?
Poor old Joe. Heaven help us if your lot got
in charge. It would be the death of farming.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Oh, get over it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
No, I'm not getting over it. What did you make
of what Steve Abel was talking about?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Steve Abel was pointing out some very real issues that
are facing us into the future. There are some big
issues around nitrates in Canterbury and Southland and in the Waikato.
And if we don't address those, then the dairy industry
in particular is going to hit a brick wall, you know,
in about five to 10 years, if not sooner. And
we have to make sure that we have truly sustainable,
(04:55):
because people are investing billions of dollars, truly sustainable systems.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Also this morning, Chippy came out and said Labour is
fully committed to the Paris Agreement and will put New
Zealand on course to meet its targets. How are you
going to do that without pricing agricultural emissions?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Look, we're going to have to incentivise, and some of
that work is going on at the moment. We put
a couple of hundred million dollars into AgriZero as a
government when we were in, and some of that technology
is coming through. It's going to have to come through
pretty quickly. Farmers are going to have to take it
up if we are to reduce our ag emissions. But
(05:35):
across the rest of the economy, we've got to see
faster progress as well. So it is a big challenge
for us. But if we were to walk away from Paris,
people would just say, well, stuff you. You're not doing
your bit. We're burning in Europe. We've got these massive issues.
It's not just Nepal, but you wait and see some
of the other glaciers around the world. If we're not
doing our bit, we will be shut out of markets.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Okay, a final comment from Chippy, and I'm quoting him here.
He said, some large exporters were driving... this changed themselves, i.e.
emissions reductions, noting that Fonterra and Silver Fern Farms were
trying to reduce emissions. But the report goes on to
say these firms are struggling to meet their targets. Fonterra
(06:17):
is targeting a 30% reduction in emissions intensity by 2030
compared to 2018, yet as of 2025 had achieved just 3.8%
of a reduction. Yep.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
We're just going to have to try harder, aren't we?
We are all going to have to do that. Otherwise,
you know, if we talk about future generations and farming,
it's going to be a very, very sad place for
them to be. Not just the conditions that they face
farming because of the events like Gabriel, but also the
difficulty getting into markets where people will be saying, you've
(06:54):
got to help us reduce the impact of global warming.
And if you're not trying, then we'll go somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Hey, Damien, your ag policy sounds a bit like my
Secondary school reports must try harder.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, well, I think it's upon all of us to
try harder. And we can't reverse things overnight. We can't
make massive changes or revolution overnight, but we're going to
have to move in the right direction. And the current
government at the moment is moving in the wrong direction
for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Damien O'Connor, Labour's candidate for Waitaki. That's going to be
a really interesting race. Thanks for your time on The Country.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You're welcome. Thanks, Damien.
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