June 17, 2025 • 17 mins
Pregnancy scanning offers more than just lamb counts - it’s a powerful management tool that can lift lamb survival and save on feed. In episode 3 of Optimising Lamb Survival, a podcast series from Beef + Lamb New Zealand, The Country’s Rowena Duncum is joined by Associate Professor Rene Corner-Thomas from Massey University.
They explore how to make the most of scanning - from identifying ewes needing extra support, to improving feeding strategies and pinpointing lambing dates. If you want to turn scanning results into real productivity gains, this episode is for you.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Optimizing Lamb Survival with Beef and Lamb New Zealand, powered
by the Country.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, Hello and welcome into the third and final episode
of Optimizing Lamb Survival in association with Beef and Lamb
New Zealand. My name's Rowena Duncan, Rural lead at MZ
may I'm delighted to be back with you again. This
is a really fun series to present. It aims to
provide you with a bunch of practical advice and proven
strategies to help you lift lamb survival and productivity on
(00:29):
your farm. So in episode one, which was released three
weeks ago, I was joined by doctor David Stephens, Senior
Scientist for Agricultural Systems at ag Research. We explored how
feed planning, your nutrition and understanding what impacts your system
can all affect lamb survival. Then last week we've focused
on hoggot lambing, so feed planning through lactation, the importance
(00:53):
of scanning, and animal health considerations. Joining me on that
episode were two people, Professor Paul Keres, Professor of sheep
Husbandry and head of the School of Agriculture and Environment
at Messy and Riveton, Sheep, Beef and Dairy farmer. He
does it all, Jeordie eid. Today though, we're looking at
how to really make the most of scanning, so everything
(01:14):
from identifying use needing extra support, to improving feed strategies
and also pinpointing lambing dates. So if you want to
turn scanning results into real productivity gains, this episode is
absolutely for you. And to bring it all together, I'm
joined by Associate Professor Renee Corner Thomas from Messi University.
(01:36):
Hello Renee, Hi, how are you going very well? Thank you?
Now tell us all about yourself. Renee, where did the
connection with agriculture begin and how did you get where
you are?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So I have a previous life where I was actually
brought up in Australian so try not to tell that
against me. I came New Zealand in two thousand to
take up a master's position at MASSY, and I really
(02:08):
came to appreciate agriculture while I was here. So I
became very interested in how the early life experience of
a fetus affects their productivity and their behavior once they're born.
So I actually looked at the effects of mid pregnancy
sharing in cheap on their offspring and looked at how
(02:33):
that affected them in terms of their birth weights in survival.
So that was way back in two thousand and seven.
I finished that and then I came to work at
MASSY in twenty twelve in the research group, really focusing
on cheap and looking at as many different ways of
(02:54):
increasing productivity as we can. So we looked at Hoggitts
and different feeding systems and through that I developed a
really strong interest in how can we improve land survival
through the management of sheep.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh, fantastic cad. You're the absolutely perfect person to wrap
this series. Rene which part of Ossie did you grow up?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
And though I grew up about an hour and now
north of Melbourne in a little place called Romsey, I
think there's all of the thousand people that live there,
so we were quite rural, but I grew up in
a lifestyle block. My father was actually a research veterinarian,
so I developed a keen questioning mind from very early on.
(03:41):
I was one of those annoying children that always asked
why and how, and he had infinite patients and answered my.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Questions wonderful, wonderful. Who's trained you well, because I'm probably
going to do the same to you today. So let's
get into it, and first of all, tell me about
pregnant scanning. You know, when does it happen in the
cycle and why is it so important.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So pregnancy scanning generally is recommended to occur about fifty
days after you take the RAM out. That gives the
operator the optimum ability to see if there's more than
one fetus in there. If we get a bit later
in pregnancy, that gets a bit hard because one of
(04:27):
the fetuses might be in front of another and the
size means that it's harder for the operator to actually
visualize each of the of the lands. So we use
a system called trans abdominal ultrasound, which means it's very
minimally invasive on the sheep. We basically just look through
(04:50):
the abdominal wall using ultrasound to identify how many fetuses
are present, if any, and we can then also have
the ability to potentially identify whether that fetus was conceived
early or late in the breeding period, so that gives
(05:12):
us some extra information about potentially when that fetus might
be born.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, now you have to bear in mind, Renee, I'm
a former dairy farmer, so I don't know much about
the sheep side of things, But they do know from
visiting friends on sheep farms. They then kind of split
them off, don't they. And you've got your earlies and
your lates, and your twins and your triplets and all
kinds of different mobs. Why is that important, I've always
kind of wondered. Is it just because you're feeding them
(05:39):
different or does it allow you better management options?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
So it does both of those things. So having you
divide it up into different smaller groups gives you a
lot more control over the allocation of the feed that
you have, which coincide with our least abundant feed supply.
So it's really tricky to make sure that we're giving
(06:06):
the use that we have what they need, and what
they need varies quite a lot depending on whether they
have a single lamb or multiples, and whether the U
herself is in good condition or poor condition. So we
end up with a pyramid of priorities in our use
(06:30):
in terms of how much we need to feed them,
how much we need to look after them. So our
highest priority our us that have twins and triplets and
that have a body condition score that is not in
the optimal range, which is three. So we're always looking
for our use to have a condition score of three
(06:52):
out of five because we know that they give birth
to lambs that have weights in the optimal range for survival,
and therefore that we can maximize the survival of those lambs.
The other thing that lets us do is if we
have use that conceive late in the reproductive period, we
(07:14):
can hold them a little bit. We've got an extra
couple of weeks to be able to prioritize the earlier
landing used and gives them slightly more because their nutritional
requirements will be higher. So particularly as we get towards
the end of pregnancy, we see it a really ramping
(07:38):
up of the energy requirements of the U in that
last thirty to forty days of pregnancy. So that's when
we see seventy percent of the lamb's growth in that
period where the U starts to need high levels of
feeding and energy to support that lamb growth. To have
(08:02):
lambs born within that optimal birth weight range, and generally
we accept that optimal birth weight range is between three
and five ki loads for our New Zealand sheep, So
if we can get land in that range, then we
can maximize their survival rates. So if they're smaller than that,
(08:24):
they have higher mortality. If they're heavier than that, they
can have higher mortality.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, that all makes sense. Now. You mentioned about the
optimal body condition score for lamming as well when you
bring them in for scan for scanning. Sorry, is this
also a good time to check their body conditions score
because I don't imagine you don't want to be running
them through all the time to check different things.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yes, Actually, pregnancy scanning is an absolutely wonderful time to
be conditioned scrowing your sheep when we scan and they're
walking past us in single file and the scanner has
some stop for a period of time to do the scanning,
So it's a really great time just to put your
hand on the sheep, identify those us that are in
(09:13):
poorer condition, and to draft them out into a mob
where they can be given extra feeding and to try
and lift that body condition score. So pregnancy scanning is
a really great time because it generally occurs in mid pregnancy,
(09:33):
so we've got time then to actually sort out any
issues before lambing, because we've got about fifty days to
then be able to see some of the results of
our increased feeding. So if there's only one time between
(09:54):
the end of breeding and lamming that you're going to
body condition score at pregnancy scanning. It's the absolute best time.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah, and now you imagine it's also a really good
time renee to train younger members of your staff. It's
a bit different than dairy farming. We could just get
a discussion group together one Friday afternoon before between milkings,
you know, grab some refreshments and all kind of move
around and get some experts in to help train us.
But if it's easier because you're just in a padic
(10:26):
looking at them, but if you've actually got to put
your hands on the sheep, I imagine this is your
ideal training time.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Absolutely, it's a really good opportunity to talk about what
it is you're feeling for. So when we're feeling for
body condition school, we're feeling the lumber spine of the sheep.
But we're feeling for two different things. One is the
vertical process, so the bit that seeks straight up, how
obvious is it? But we also need to consider the
(10:55):
transverse processes or the sideways bones, and those two things
together give us a really good indication of what are
the body reserves. Of urues like, and those body reserves
are super important as we get closer to landing because
our use can struggle to eat enough to be able
(11:16):
to gain weight because the lands just take up a
lot of space in her abmen. So if she's got
some body reserves to rely on, she can use those
to supplement any lack of energy that she's getting from
her diet. So having those conversations about what is an
(11:41):
acceptable body condition score, what is the for those us
that are in the condition score of less than two
and a half, those are the US that really really
need that extra feeding. And some of the research at
MASSY suggests that if yous go into lambing at a
condition score of two, that i'm significantly higher proportion of
(12:05):
those use leaving the flock because of adverse events. So
problems with lambing and problems with metabolic issues much more
than use that are in a condition score that's higher
than two and a half.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, that absolutely stacks Renee. Something else I wanted
to ask you about. I've heard people sheep farmers talk
about ram harnesses and how that can help something to
do with aging pregnancies. Can you help me out of
it here?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Absolutely? So One of the interesting ways that we can
determine if you use going to lamb early or late
is to use a RAM harness. And the way most
people use those is that for the first cycle, the
rams don't have a harness, and then at the start
of the sea can cycle, so that's after the first
(13:02):
seventeen days, then the RAM harnesses have put on, so
that any you that has a color mark will be
a late laming you, and any you that is pregnant
and has no color mark will be an earlier lambing you.
So there's two ways to do it. You can do
it with a RAM harness, or you can pay a
(13:24):
little bit extra to your ultrasound operator who can tell
you early or late when they do their pregnancy scanning. Yep.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, So it's kind of the opposite of dairy farming,
where we tail paint all the cows and ones who
lose their color, we know they're either empty or they're
gonna be late carving to the bull. You guys just
do it the other way around in sheep.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yes, yeah, so if we have a color mark, it
indicates late lambing.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, definitely, brilliant, brilliant renee. Anything else to add before
we wrap.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Or One of the other real advantages of pregnancy scanning
use is also when you're deciding what you're doing at
set stocking time. So when we're sorting our use out
for lamming, some of the really important information that we
can use from pregnancy scanning is how many lands that
(14:20):
you is going to have, so we can then strategically
place use in paddocks based on that. So our twins
and triplet us need a bit more help. Their lands
tend to be smaller, so they have a greater risk
of being exposed to the elements. So if you've got
(14:42):
well sheltered paddocks, ideally you would want to prioritize the
twins and triplets going into those. Also, if you've got
paddocks that have a higher pasture mass than others, then
again we want to prioritize those twin and triplet use.
It's also a nice sort of way to give you
(15:03):
an idea of what the mortality rate of paddock is.
So if you were to put twins into a paddock
and then you come through at docking time, you can
look at how many lambs you dock out of a
paddock and it will give you an indication of how
many survived or didn't because you know how many lambs
there should be in there based on how many us
(15:24):
were put into that paddock. So that can give you
some feedback on which paddocks are actually better or worse
for land survival. Just that extra bit of information at
landing time. Again, we also are thinking about body condition score,
but really it's a personal choice whether farmers decides to
(15:45):
body condition score at set stocking. But that can also
provide justification of putting used into better or worse paddocks
because we all know we've been We grow in a rotation,
so all our paddocks are not the same, so we
have to make decisions on which animals could benefit most
(16:06):
from the better paddocks that we have.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and there's quite a difference between paddocks. Look,
the Beef and Lamb New Zealand Extension team is launching
a focus group on lamb survivability, so if you're interested,
just check out the latest e Diary newsletter from Beef
and Lamb New Zealand to learn how you can get involved.
It's a great opportunity to share what's working or what's
(16:29):
not working on your farm. Learn from others' experiences and
het insights from industry experts, just like you've done across
these three podcasts. So whether your hands on with lambing
or running a set stocking system that we've just talked about,
your input can actually really help tackle this important challenge.
Renee Corner Thomas, Associate Professor from Massy University. Have loved
(16:51):
chatting to you today. I feel like, as a dairy
farmer I've learned a bit about sheep farming and really
appreciate the level with which you've explained everything. Thanks for
your time.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Oh, thank you very much. It's lovely to talk to
you and hopefully support our farmers in increasing land survival
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Optimizing lamb survival With Beef and Lamb New Zealand powered
by the Country
Optimizing Lamb Survival with Beef and Lamb New Zealand, powered
by the Country.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, Hello and welcome into the third and final episode
of Optimizing Lamb Survival in association with Beef and Lamb
New Zealand. My name's Rowena Duncan, Rural lead at MZ
may I'm delighted to be back with you again. This
is a really fun series to present. It aims to
provide you with a bunch of practical advice and proven
strategies to help you lift lamb survival and productivity on
(00:29):
your farm. So in episode one, which was released three
weeks ago, I was joined by doctor David Stephens, Senior
Scientist for Agricultural Systems at ag Research. We explored how
feed planning, your nutrition and understanding what impacts your system
can all affect lamb survival. Then last week we've focused
on hoggot lambing, so feed planning through lactation, the importance
(00:53):
of scanning, and animal health considerations. Joining me on that
episode were two people, Professor Paul Keres, Professor of sheep
Husbandry and head of the School of Agriculture and Environment
at Messy and Riveton, Sheep, Beef and Dairy farmer. He
does it all, Jeordie eid. Today though, we're looking at
how to really make the most of scanning, so everything
(01:14):
from identifying use needing extra support, to improving feed strategies
and also pinpointing lambing dates. So if you want to
turn scanning results into real productivity gains, this episode is
absolutely for you. And to bring it all together, I'm
joined by Associate Professor Renee Corner Thomas from Messi University.
(01:36):
Hello Renee, Hi, how are you going very well? Thank you?
Now tell us all about yourself. Renee, where did the
connection with agriculture begin and how did you get where
you are?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So I have a previous life where I was actually
brought up in Australian so try not to tell that
against me. I came New Zealand in two thousand to
take up a master's position at MASSY, and I really
(02:08):
came to appreciate agriculture while I was here. So I
became very interested in how the early life experience of
a fetus affects their productivity and their behavior once they're born.
So I actually looked at the effects of mid pregnancy
sharing in cheap on their offspring and looked at how
(02:33):
that affected them in terms of their birth weights in survival.
So that was way back in two thousand and seven.
I finished that and then I came to work at
MASSY in twenty twelve in the research group, really focusing
on cheap and looking at as many different ways of
(02:54):
increasing productivity as we can. So we looked at Hoggitts
and different feeding systems and through that I developed a
really strong interest in how can we improve land survival
through the management of sheep.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh, fantastic cad. You're the absolutely perfect person to wrap
this series. Rene which part of Ossie did you grow up?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
And though I grew up about an hour and now
north of Melbourne in a little place called Romsey, I
think there's all of the thousand people that live there,
so we were quite rural, but I grew up in
a lifestyle block. My father was actually a research veterinarian,
so I developed a keen questioning mind from very early on.
(03:41):
I was one of those annoying children that always asked
why and how, and he had infinite patients and answered my.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Questions wonderful, wonderful. Who's trained you well, because I'm probably
going to do the same to you today. So let's
get into it, and first of all, tell me about
pregnant scanning. You know, when does it happen in the
cycle and why is it so important.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So pregnancy scanning generally is recommended to occur about fifty
days after you take the RAM out. That gives the
operator the optimum ability to see if there's more than
one fetus in there. If we get a bit later
in pregnancy, that gets a bit hard because one of
(04:27):
the fetuses might be in front of another and the
size means that it's harder for the operator to actually
visualize each of the of the lands. So we use
a system called trans abdominal ultrasound, which means it's very
minimally invasive on the sheep. We basically just look through
(04:50):
the abdominal wall using ultrasound to identify how many fetuses
are present, if any, and we can then also have
the ability to potentially identify whether that fetus was conceived
early or late in the breeding period, so that gives
(05:12):
us some extra information about potentially when that fetus might
be born.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, now you have to bear in mind, Renee, I'm
a former dairy farmer, so I don't know much about
the sheep side of things, But they do know from
visiting friends on sheep farms. They then kind of split
them off, don't they. And you've got your earlies and
your lates, and your twins and your triplets and all
kinds of different mobs. Why is that important, I've always
kind of wondered. Is it just because you're feeding them
(05:39):
different or does it allow you better management options?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
So it does both of those things. So having you
divide it up into different smaller groups gives you a
lot more control over the allocation of the feed that
you have, which coincide with our least abundant feed supply.
So it's really tricky to make sure that we're giving
(06:06):
the use that we have what they need, and what
they need varies quite a lot depending on whether they
have a single lamb or multiples, and whether the U
herself is in good condition or poor condition. So we
end up with a pyramid of priorities in our use
(06:30):
in terms of how much we need to feed them,
how much we need to look after them. So our
highest priority our us that have twins and triplets and
that have a body condition score that is not in
the optimal range, which is three. So we're always looking
for our use to have a condition score of three
(06:52):
out of five because we know that they give birth
to lambs that have weights in the optimal range for survival,
and therefore that we can maximize the survival of those lambs.
The other thing that lets us do is if we
have use that conceive late in the reproductive period, we
(07:14):
can hold them a little bit. We've got an extra
couple of weeks to be able to prioritize the earlier
landing used and gives them slightly more because their nutritional
requirements will be higher. So particularly as we get towards
the end of pregnancy, we see it a really ramping
(07:38):
up of the energy requirements of the U in that
last thirty to forty days of pregnancy. So that's when
we see seventy percent of the lamb's growth in that
period where the U starts to need high levels of
feeding and energy to support that lamb growth. To have
(08:02):
lambs born within that optimal birth weight range, and generally
we accept that optimal birth weight range is between three
and five ki loads for our New Zealand sheep, So
if we can get land in that range, then we
can maximize their survival rates. So if they're smaller than that,
(08:24):
they have higher mortality. If they're heavier than that, they
can have higher mortality.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, that all makes sense. Now. You mentioned about the
optimal body condition score for lamming as well when you
bring them in for scan for scanning. Sorry, is this
also a good time to check their body conditions score
because I don't imagine you don't want to be running
them through all the time to check different things.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yes, Actually, pregnancy scanning is an absolutely wonderful time to
be conditioned scrowing your sheep when we scan and they're
walking past us in single file and the scanner has
some stop for a period of time to do the scanning,
So it's a really great time just to put your
hand on the sheep, identify those us that are in
(09:13):
poorer condition, and to draft them out into a mob
where they can be given extra feeding and to try
and lift that body condition score. So pregnancy scanning is
a really great time because it generally occurs in mid pregnancy,
(09:33):
so we've got time then to actually sort out any
issues before lambing, because we've got about fifty days to
then be able to see some of the results of
our increased feeding. So if there's only one time between
(09:54):
the end of breeding and lamming that you're going to
body condition score at pregnancy scanning. It's the absolute best time.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah, and now you imagine it's also a really good
time renee to train younger members of your staff. It's
a bit different than dairy farming. We could just get
a discussion group together one Friday afternoon before between milkings,
you know, grab some refreshments and all kind of move
around and get some experts in to help train us.
But if it's easier because you're just in a padic
(10:26):
looking at them, but if you've actually got to put
your hands on the sheep, I imagine this is your
ideal training time.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Absolutely, it's a really good opportunity to talk about what
it is you're feeling for. So when we're feeling for
body condition school, we're feeling the lumber spine of the sheep.
But we're feeling for two different things. One is the
vertical process, so the bit that seeks straight up, how
obvious is it? But we also need to consider the
(10:55):
transverse processes or the sideways bones, and those two things
together give us a really good indication of what are
the body reserves. Of urues like, and those body reserves
are super important as we get closer to landing because
our use can struggle to eat enough to be able
(11:16):
to gain weight because the lands just take up a
lot of space in her abmen. So if she's got
some body reserves to rely on, she can use those
to supplement any lack of energy that she's getting from
her diet. So having those conversations about what is an
(11:41):
acceptable body condition score, what is the for those us
that are in the condition score of less than two
and a half, those are the US that really really
need that extra feeding. And some of the research at
MASSY suggests that if yous go into lambing at a
condition score of two, that i'm significantly higher proportion of
(12:05):
those use leaving the flock because of adverse events. So
problems with lambing and problems with metabolic issues much more
than use that are in a condition score that's higher
than two and a half.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, that absolutely stacks Renee. Something else I wanted
to ask you about. I've heard people sheep farmers talk
about ram harnesses and how that can help something to
do with aging pregnancies. Can you help me out of
it here?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Absolutely? So One of the interesting ways that we can
determine if you use going to lamb early or late
is to use a RAM harness. And the way most
people use those is that for the first cycle, the
rams don't have a harness, and then at the start
of the sea can cycle, so that's after the first
(13:02):
seventeen days, then the RAM harnesses have put on, so
that any you that has a color mark will be
a late laming you, and any you that is pregnant
and has no color mark will be an earlier lambing you.
So there's two ways to do it. You can do
it with a RAM harness, or you can pay a
(13:24):
little bit extra to your ultrasound operator who can tell
you early or late when they do their pregnancy scanning. Yep.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, So it's kind of the opposite of dairy farming,
where we tail paint all the cows and ones who
lose their color, we know they're either empty or they're
gonna be late carving to the bull. You guys just
do it the other way around in sheep.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yes, yeah, so if we have a color mark, it
indicates late lambing.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, definitely, brilliant, brilliant renee. Anything else to add before
we wrap.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Or One of the other real advantages of pregnancy scanning
use is also when you're deciding what you're doing at
set stocking time. So when we're sorting our use out
for lamming, some of the really important information that we
can use from pregnancy scanning is how many lands that
(14:20):
you is going to have, so we can then strategically
place use in paddocks based on that. So our twins
and triplet us need a bit more help. Their lands
tend to be smaller, so they have a greater risk
of being exposed to the elements. So if you've got
(14:42):
well sheltered paddocks, ideally you would want to prioritize the
twins and triplets going into those. Also, if you've got
paddocks that have a higher pasture mass than others, then
again we want to prioritize those twin and triplet use.
It's also a nice sort of way to give you
(15:03):
an idea of what the mortality rate of paddock is.
So if you were to put twins into a paddock
and then you come through at docking time, you can
look at how many lambs you dock out of a
paddock and it will give you an indication of how
many survived or didn't because you know how many lambs
there should be in there based on how many us
(15:24):
were put into that paddock. So that can give you
some feedback on which paddocks are actually better or worse
for land survival. Just that extra bit of information at
landing time. Again, we also are thinking about body condition score,
but really it's a personal choice whether farmers decides to
(15:45):
body condition score at set stocking. But that can also
provide justification of putting used into better or worse paddocks
because we all know we've been We grow in a rotation,
so all our paddocks are not the same, so we
have to make decisions on which animals could benefit most
(16:06):
from the better paddocks that we have.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and there's quite a difference between paddocks. Look,
the Beef and Lamb New Zealand Extension team is launching
a focus group on lamb survivability, so if you're interested,
just check out the latest e Diary newsletter from Beef
and Lamb New Zealand to learn how you can get involved.
It's a great opportunity to share what's working or what's
(16:29):
not working on your farm. Learn from others' experiences and
het insights from industry experts, just like you've done across
these three podcasts. So whether your hands on with lambing
or running a set stocking system that we've just talked about,
your input can actually really help tackle this important challenge.
Renee Corner Thomas, Associate Professor from Massy University. Have loved
(16:51):
chatting to you today. I feel like, as a dairy
farmer I've learned a bit about sheep farming and really
appreciate the level with which you've explained everything. Thanks for
your time.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Oh, thank you very much. It's lovely to talk to
you and hopefully support our farmers in increasing land survival
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Optimizing lamb survival With Beef and Lamb New Zealand powered
by the Country
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