February 22, 2026 • 18 mins
Move-on orders are being pitched as a way to “reclaim” town and city centres.
The Government is proposing a law which would allow Police to order someone rough sleeping or begging to leave a public space for up to 24 hours.
They could be fined up to $2000 or three months in jail if they don't.
Critics say that does nothing to create homes, risks criminalising poverty, and simply shifts people – and the problem – from one street or suburb to another.
Today on The Front Page, Community Housing Aotearoa Chief Executive Paul Gilberd joins us to talk about the real impact on people experiencing homelessness.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Move On
orders are being pitched as a way to reclaim town
and city centers. The government is proposing a law which
would allow police to order someone rough, sleeping or begging
(00:28):
to leave a public space for up to twenty four hours.
They could be fined up to two thousand dollars or
three months in jail if they don't. Critics say that
does nothing to create homes, risks, criminalizing poverty and simply
shifts people and the problem from one street or suburb
to another. Today on the Front Page, Community Housing ALTIROA
(00:51):
Chief executive Paul Gilbert joins us to talk about the
real impact on people experiencing homelessness. Paul, what was your
first reaction when the government announced this news.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I think disappointment would be the first word that would
come to mind. And I'm speaking as the see of
Community Housing art at All. We've got about one hundred
and sixty members across the country. We walk alongside another
organization which is called TEMTIPE, which is the Marti Independent
Marty Voice for Housing and so they have dozens and
dozens of groups and HARPERIWI that they work with as well.
(01:30):
So probably there's two hundred organizations that we represent, and
I think it's fair to say that we unanimously would
prefer to do what works instead move on legislation and enforcement.
Lead approaches don't work. They haven't worked anywhere in the world.
Take a look at the USA right now, where they
have mass encountments of people outside of town centers who've
(01:53):
been dumped in a field somewhere.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I mean so in terms of looking at the world
based evidence that we have at the moment, if you
look across to the US, like you say, it hasn't worked,
there is this Basically I saw Bernard Hecki actually write
in his latest column about this, being like, basically the
Prime Minister doesn't want Chuck and Mary getting off their
(02:16):
cruise ship and feeling intimidated by homeless people and looking
at homeless people next to a deaor store. So is
it basically we're just going to move them on because
we don't like seeing it.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Mentally, yes, that's the driver for this piece of legislation.
It doesn't just displace the people, it also displaces the
un needs that they have, so the problem doesn't go away.
We're not addressing the root cause here. There are multiple
root causes. I would sort of point listeners and viewers
(02:50):
in the direction of the cumulative deficit of the last
thirty five or forty years of our national underproduction and
under delivery of the ford housing for low and moderate
income households. So we've got a substantial cumulative deficit across
multiple governments that dates all the way back to the
reforms of the late nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties.
(03:11):
So there's a lack of adequate low cost housing. But
then you need a layer on top of that the
health issues and the mental health issues, and the addiction
and the things like the methamphetamine epidemic that we have
in New Zealand at the moment that for many New
Zealanders is quite invisible and they're not aware of. And
(03:32):
so there's a lot of complexity in here. But displacing
it and avoiding dealing with the underlying root causes is
not going to make it go away.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
What percentage do you think it would be that there
are genuine disorder incidents in the city, say so, you know,
affecting the public versus it's just not nice to look at.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
So look, police up and down the country have been
doing a very a good job of this. I want
to put a shout out to our men and women
in blue who are on the beat and doing a
great job. And so there are many available tools in
the tool to address anti social behavior, assault, drug use,
(04:20):
local government by laws that control drinking in public spaces.
So all of those things have a threshold which allows
for police and security services to intervene if that threshold
has been crossed. We agree that all members of public
and people running businesses have the right to go about
their business unfitted and unmolested. Totally agree with that. However,
(04:45):
characterizing rough sleepers and homeless people as gangsters, as has
occurred in the last forty eight hours, with linking it
in some strange way to gang patches, we reject, reject
the mischaracterization of rough sleepers and homeless as a criminal element.
That's sure, there are occasions when that spills over, but
(05:09):
more often than not, what the police tell us is
happening is that it's often groups of people who've had
one too many, who are in town on a Friday
night and who are causing violence and issues. Often our
streety population are hiding from that cogwort because they're often
the victims of it. And so I think we need
(05:31):
to place these issues where they are and where they belong.
And we do not agree with the blanket characterization of
poor people and rough sleepers and homeless people as a
criminal issue. It's a health issue, it's a housing issue,
it's a mental health issue. There are other more effective
(05:52):
ways of approaching it that we've proven very very good
ways of helping people get off the streets, and there's
no better example than the Housing First program and the
outreach services that our providers deliver in conjunction. I should
mention with the police and with council staff across the country.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
This has been a problem for us for a long
time as a country, as we continue to see people
that choose to make the pavements somewhere they want to live,
and not only is it a safety issue for them,
it's a big safety issue for the residents, for the
people that want to come into our CBDs and enjoy them,
for those people that try to run businesses and their employees.
(06:37):
And so there was a gap in the way that
we were able to actually deal with that. And I
think that the move on order it's not a panacea.
It takes a whole lot of different actions to be
able to deal with these issues. But this is one
of the actions that we think is going to make
a big difference to making sure that we don't have
people living on our pavements and on our streets.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
What are some overseas examples that have actually worked.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Okay, so let's start with housing first. Now that's funnily enough,
it's written on the pan what it is. It's a philosophy,
first of all, which says that if you've got people
that are in need, if you put them in an adequate, warm,
dry harm first, you then have a stable platform upon
(07:24):
which to deliver other services that may or may not
be needed. So housing first started in North America many
years ago. We as Community Housing, Alto and other providers
were involved in bringing SAM who set it up in
Canada and the US, to New Zealand. It's been operating
here very successfully for a number of years as a program,
(07:45):
and effectively, what it does is it goes out into
the community, out onto the streets. It engages with streets
and rough sleepers where they are it brings them into
a system of stability which starts with a house and
then provides additional is around health and mental health and
other things that need to be addressed from the stable
base of a home. And so that's working, and in
(08:08):
fact this government has acknowledged it's working because they've just
invested more in it quite recently and that money has
now been deployed admittedly only across christ Church, Hamilton, Wellington
and Auckland, but it's been delivering really great outcomes. So
that's one example that's here in New Zealand, proven tested
(08:29):
and can be scaled. And another example is in Wales.
They've kind of been leading the charge and I think
it's worth mentioning this because what they've achieved is a
substantial and sustained reduction in homelessness in Wales and it
started with the Housing Wales at twenty fourteen, so they've
got ten years of solid data now to show the
permanent reduction. There was obviously some issues with COVID, but
(08:52):
they've sustained a reduction and that really puts the onus
on particularly the agencies of the state, not to discharge
or release people into homelessness. And it's called a duty
of care and a duty to assist, and then there's
another duty underneath that, which they've just reinforced with some
additional legislation this year in Wales which says, if you've
(09:14):
got someone in hospital or in prison or in residential
psychiatric healthcare, for example, don't discharge them into homelessness. Kind
of makes sense, right, because then you're enough. Yeah, So
at the moment, just to tell you what is still
happening in New Zealand, as the paddy wagon turns up
and releases prisoners with a few hundred bucks in their
(09:35):
pocket and no accommodation nowhere to live, it doesn't take
much imagination to realize what's going to happen in that situation.
And so the Welsh have built a really robust system
that has proven to work now over a period of
more than ten years of Actually, let's get a housing
plan in place if we're going to discharge people from
(09:56):
hospital who are really sick. Otherwise we're just going to
have to try them again. They'll turn up back in
the A and E, or they'll turn up in corrections.
And that's between five hundred dollars a night and one
thousand dollars a night. Why wouldn't we do the sensible
economic thing and the ethically correct thing and get a
housing plan in place, which is much lower cost, and
(10:17):
it's also the right thing to do.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
It's interesting you bring that up because we've done on
the show a couple of times we've spoken about autoing
a tambariki and similarly, they don't have a duty of care.
So once a kid turns eighteen, they're sent off with
a few hundred bucks in their pocket and that's all.
So we're really not very good at the duty of
care thing.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Hey, there's a lot of really good people, you know,
if I'm honest with you, there's some really great people
in MSD, in the Ministry of Health and all our hospitals,
with our police, with our nurses. But our system at
the moment is not very well integrated. And what we're
experiencing at the moment and what's turning up visibly on
the streets, although by the way it's the tip of
(10:59):
an iceberg, is a much larger number of people who
are what we're call invisible homeless, who are sofa surfing
in grossly overoccupied dwellings, etc. But what we're seeing is
people slipping through the gaps and so in some ways,
even at the same level of resourcing that we're putting
in right now across health and social services and housing,
(11:22):
if we just connected a little bit more. And that's
where the Welsh are onto a really smart thing where
there's a duty to collaborate. What they're really saying is
you guys need to talk to each other before you
release or discharge somebody, because we actually have some really
good systems, some really good people, and some really good
programs and solutions that are running. But sometimes people are
(11:42):
falling through the gaps and now they're spilling onto the street.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Do you think there's a real sense I think that
the messaging is not great right because I've seen the police.
Minister Mark Mitchell has explained it on z B this morning, saying, look,
the government's hoping that more of these move on orders
will nudge homeless people and rough sleepers towards social services.
Now that's all well and good, but it doesn't really
(12:06):
work in practice. And the messaging around this is yay
for businesses. You're not going to have any disruptions or
city centers or you're not going to see this in
the street. Do you think that the AA they should
have been more focused on rough sleepers when they come
out with this and be what would you say to
a shop owner who is happy about this decision, who
(12:29):
has had rough sleepers outside their door every morning and
is genuinely worried for their safety.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, I mean, we're all in this together, and like you,
I listened to the release and saw Paul Goldsmith and
Mark Mitchell and Simeon Brown they're talking to it. I
think they were in Auckland yesterday when they did their
stand up out. Reflection and observation has been that the
police are doing a really good job and what is
(12:57):
most effective is when we're working to get and so
to that shopkeeper, I would I would again say, hey,
let's do more of what works and what's been working
for a number of months now across many urban centers.
I think the rest of New Zealand must get a
little bit tired of Auckland because there's a lot of
talk about Auckland. But Auckland is a good example because
(13:19):
council staff and our providers, our outreach providers have been
going on joint visits and connecting with rough sleepers and
streets where they are and getting them at scale into
some awesome innovations, particularly like the day program for example,
that is running that. We've got various day programs where
(13:40):
there are safe places for streets and rough sleepers to
be during the day, to sleep unmolested and to do
some creative stuff. Do some art, do some music, do
some do some do some other things, and most of
them will be together in a safe place. Because you
might not know it, but there's a really strong community
within the rough sleeping and street community and and it's
(14:00):
important for them as it is for all of us
to spend time with each other socializing. And so don't
be afraid to get on the phone and call one
of our providers if you've got a concern, and we'll respond.
We have outreach teams and we can come and help
meet people where they are and to the shopkeeper that
might be on the front door of your shop. But
(14:24):
enforcement lad approaches that just displace the problem and keep
the can down the road are not the way to go.
Let's do what works instead. I mean that being one
is legally know.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
What we're criminalizing is a refusal to follow a move
on order. So when police come along and say to somebody,
if you're being disorderly or doing one of the behaviors
that's outlined with this legislation, and you refuse to comply,
then you can be arrested.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
What apps what is the.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Pigs is that they're rough sleeping somewhere and they're told
to move on. Does that mean the fact that they
were just rough sleeping is not allowed?
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Well, what is criminalized is refusing to follow a move
on order. And that's what we're trying to do. We're
wanting to reclaim the seats are the streets of our
city for the enjoyment of people who come and live
here and work here.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I see these comments online and this is a conversation
that's being had time and time and time again. But
I'm seeing a lot less compassion for rough sleepers right
I'm seeing more people just be bothered that they have
to walk past someone in a blanket on their way
(15:45):
to work every morning. I'm seeing people, you know, frustrated
that they pay taxes, and people in the street begging
or window washing or what have you don't have to do.
You think that we just need to become more compassionate
towards each other and understand and at the end of
the day, one wrong turn, this could be you.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah, I think a couple of really good points you've
made there, and many many New Zealanders are one life
event away from this sort of possibility being in their future.
There are now over one hundred and eighty thousand households
that's not people. So a family is a household of
five maybe, or it could be someone living on their own.
(16:25):
There are over one hundred and eighty thousand households across
the whole of New Zealand who are now paying over
thirty forty fifty percent even up to seventy and eighty
percent of their income on rent. And so one thing
goes wrong for you, the car breaks down, you can't
get to work, you lose your job out, you spell,
and so it could be you, it could be me,
(16:46):
It could be any of us. And I think that's
a helpful reference point for people when they are having
that awkward moment on the street of walking past a
rough sleeper. Just to reflect on compassion is huge important
and we're at a critical juncture I think now, as
human beings in Altia or in New Zealand, considering what
(17:09):
sort of a place we want to live in. Because
if you want to view of the future, go to
the States and see what enforcement lead approaches have led
to there, which is an I interviewed a professor from
the University of Texas on this last week. They have
these huge encampments just outside of towns and cities all
over the country. We have the beginnings of one of
those in the Red Zone in christ Church now where
(17:31):
a lot of streats and homeless people are beginning to
build an encampment. Is that the sort of society we
want to be and want to live in? And I
think it's important for all New Zealanders to understand that
homelessness is a political choice. We made a bunch of
choices over the last thirty five years in terms of
(17:51):
our policies and our funding settings, and this is the
fruit of those choices that we've made, and we have
the power and the resources to make different choices. It's
really up to us, but it's up to all of us,
not just community housing providers in the police.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Thanks for joining us, Paul, so.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
It please to Chelsea anytime.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot enz The front page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine. Dicky is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page
(18:35):
on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts,
and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Move On
orders are being pitched as a way to reclaim town
and city centers. The government is proposing a law which
would allow police to order someone rough, sleeping or begging
(00:28):
to leave a public space for up to twenty four hours.
They could be fined up to two thousand dollars or
three months in jail if they don't. Critics say that
does nothing to create homes, risks, criminalizing poverty and simply
shifts people and the problem from one street or suburb
to another. Today on the Front Page, Community Housing ALTIROA
(00:51):
Chief executive Paul Gilbert joins us to talk about the
real impact on people experiencing homelessness. Paul, what was your
first reaction when the government announced this news.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I think disappointment would be the first word that would
come to mind. And I'm speaking as the see of
Community Housing art at All. We've got about one hundred
and sixty members across the country. We walk alongside another
organization which is called TEMTIPE, which is the Marti Independent
Marty Voice for Housing and so they have dozens and
dozens of groups and HARPERIWI that they work with as well.
(01:30):
So probably there's two hundred organizations that we represent, and
I think it's fair to say that we unanimously would
prefer to do what works instead move on legislation and enforcement.
Lead approaches don't work. They haven't worked anywhere in the world.
Take a look at the USA right now, where they
have mass encountments of people outside of town centers who've
(01:53):
been dumped in a field somewhere.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I mean so in terms of looking at the world
based evidence that we have at the moment, if you
look across to the US, like you say, it hasn't worked,
there is this Basically I saw Bernard Hecki actually write
in his latest column about this, being like, basically the
Prime Minister doesn't want Chuck and Mary getting off their
(02:16):
cruise ship and feeling intimidated by homeless people and looking
at homeless people next to a deaor store. So is
it basically we're just going to move them on because
we don't like seeing it.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Mentally, yes, that's the driver for this piece of legislation.
It doesn't just displace the people, it also displaces the
un needs that they have, so the problem doesn't go away.
We're not addressing the root cause here. There are multiple
root causes. I would sort of point listeners and viewers
(02:50):
in the direction of the cumulative deficit of the last
thirty five or forty years of our national underproduction and
under delivery of the ford housing for low and moderate
income households. So we've got a substantial cumulative deficit across
multiple governments that dates all the way back to the
reforms of the late nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties.
(03:11):
So there's a lack of adequate low cost housing. But
then you need a layer on top of that the
health issues and the mental health issues, and the addiction
and the things like the methamphetamine epidemic that we have
in New Zealand at the moment that for many New
Zealanders is quite invisible and they're not aware of. And
(03:32):
so there's a lot of complexity in here. But displacing
it and avoiding dealing with the underlying root causes is
not going to make it go away.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
What percentage do you think it would be that there
are genuine disorder incidents in the city, say so, you know,
affecting the public versus it's just not nice to look at.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
So look, police up and down the country have been
doing a very a good job of this. I want
to put a shout out to our men and women
in blue who are on the beat and doing a
great job. And so there are many available tools in
the tool to address anti social behavior, assault, drug use,
(04:20):
local government by laws that control drinking in public spaces.
So all of those things have a threshold which allows
for police and security services to intervene if that threshold
has been crossed. We agree that all members of public
and people running businesses have the right to go about
their business unfitted and unmolested. Totally agree with that. However,
(04:45):
characterizing rough sleepers and homeless people as gangsters, as has
occurred in the last forty eight hours, with linking it
in some strange way to gang patches, we reject, reject
the mischaracterization of rough sleepers and homeless as a criminal element.
That's sure, there are occasions when that spills over, but
(05:09):
more often than not, what the police tell us is
happening is that it's often groups of people who've had
one too many, who are in town on a Friday
night and who are causing violence and issues. Often our
streety population are hiding from that cogwort because they're often
the victims of it. And so I think we need
(05:31):
to place these issues where they are and where they belong.
And we do not agree with the blanket characterization of
poor people and rough sleepers and homeless people as a
criminal issue. It's a health issue, it's a housing issue,
it's a mental health issue. There are other more effective
(05:52):
ways of approaching it that we've proven very very good
ways of helping people get off the streets, and there's
no better example than the Housing First program and the
outreach services that our providers deliver in conjunction. I should
mention with the police and with council staff across the country.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
This has been a problem for us for a long
time as a country, as we continue to see people
that choose to make the pavements somewhere they want to live,
and not only is it a safety issue for them,
it's a big safety issue for the residents, for the
people that want to come into our CBDs and enjoy them,
for those people that try to run businesses and their employees.
(06:37):
And so there was a gap in the way that
we were able to actually deal with that. And I
think that the move on order it's not a panacea.
It takes a whole lot of different actions to be
able to deal with these issues. But this is one
of the actions that we think is going to make
a big difference to making sure that we don't have
people living on our pavements and on our streets.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
What are some overseas examples that have actually worked.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Okay, so let's start with housing first. Now that's funnily enough,
it's written on the pan what it is. It's a philosophy,
first of all, which says that if you've got people
that are in need, if you put them in an adequate, warm,
dry harm first, you then have a stable platform upon
(07:24):
which to deliver other services that may or may not
be needed. So housing first started in North America many
years ago. We as Community Housing, Alto and other providers
were involved in bringing SAM who set it up in
Canada and the US, to New Zealand. It's been operating
here very successfully for a number of years as a program,
(07:45):
and effectively, what it does is it goes out into
the community, out onto the streets. It engages with streets
and rough sleepers where they are it brings them into
a system of stability which starts with a house and
then provides additional is around health and mental health and
other things that need to be addressed from the stable
base of a home. And so that's working, and in
(08:08):
fact this government has acknowledged it's working because they've just
invested more in it quite recently and that money has
now been deployed admittedly only across christ Church, Hamilton, Wellington
and Auckland, but it's been delivering really great outcomes. So
that's one example that's here in New Zealand, proven tested
(08:29):
and can be scaled. And another example is in Wales.
They've kind of been leading the charge and I think
it's worth mentioning this because what they've achieved is a
substantial and sustained reduction in homelessness in Wales and it
started with the Housing Wales at twenty fourteen, so they've
got ten years of solid data now to show the
permanent reduction. There was obviously some issues with COVID, but
(08:52):
they've sustained a reduction and that really puts the onus
on particularly the agencies of the state, not to discharge
or release people into homelessness. And it's called a duty
of care and a duty to assist, and then there's
another duty underneath that, which they've just reinforced with some
additional legislation this year in Wales which says, if you've
(09:14):
got someone in hospital or in prison or in residential
psychiatric healthcare, for example, don't discharge them into homelessness. Kind
of makes sense, right, because then you're enough. Yeah, So
at the moment, just to tell you what is still
happening in New Zealand, as the paddy wagon turns up
and releases prisoners with a few hundred bucks in their
(09:35):
pocket and no accommodation nowhere to live, it doesn't take
much imagination to realize what's going to happen in that situation.
And so the Welsh have built a really robust system
that has proven to work now over a period of
more than ten years of Actually, let's get a housing
plan in place if we're going to discharge people from
(09:56):
hospital who are really sick. Otherwise we're just going to
have to try them again. They'll turn up back in
the A and E, or they'll turn up in corrections.
And that's between five hundred dollars a night and one
thousand dollars a night. Why wouldn't we do the sensible
economic thing and the ethically correct thing and get a
housing plan in place, which is much lower cost, and
(10:17):
it's also the right thing to do.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
It's interesting you bring that up because we've done on
the show a couple of times we've spoken about autoing
a tambariki and similarly, they don't have a duty of care.
So once a kid turns eighteen, they're sent off with
a few hundred bucks in their pocket and that's all.
So we're really not very good at the duty of
care thing.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Hey, there's a lot of really good people, you know,
if I'm honest with you, there's some really great people
in MSD, in the Ministry of Health and all our hospitals,
with our police, with our nurses. But our system at
the moment is not very well integrated. And what we're
experiencing at the moment and what's turning up visibly on
the streets, although by the way it's the tip of
(10:59):
an iceberg, is a much larger number of people who
are what we're call invisible homeless, who are sofa surfing
in grossly overoccupied dwellings, etc. But what we're seeing is
people slipping through the gaps and so in some ways,
even at the same level of resourcing that we're putting
in right now across health and social services and housing,
(11:22):
if we just connected a little bit more. And that's
where the Welsh are onto a really smart thing where
there's a duty to collaborate. What they're really saying is
you guys need to talk to each other before you
release or discharge somebody, because we actually have some really
good systems, some really good people, and some really good
programs and solutions that are running. But sometimes people are
(11:42):
falling through the gaps and now they're spilling onto the street.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Do you think there's a real sense I think that
the messaging is not great right because I've seen the police.
Minister Mark Mitchell has explained it on z B this morning, saying, look,
the government's hoping that more of these move on orders
will nudge homeless people and rough sleepers towards social services.
Now that's all well and good, but it doesn't really
(12:06):
work in practice. And the messaging around this is yay
for businesses. You're not going to have any disruptions or
city centers or you're not going to see this in
the street. Do you think that the AA they should
have been more focused on rough sleepers when they come
out with this and be what would you say to
a shop owner who is happy about this decision, who
(12:29):
has had rough sleepers outside their door every morning and
is genuinely worried for their safety.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, I mean, we're all in this together, and like you,
I listened to the release and saw Paul Goldsmith and
Mark Mitchell and Simeon Brown they're talking to it. I
think they were in Auckland yesterday when they did their
stand up out. Reflection and observation has been that the
police are doing a really good job and what is
(12:57):
most effective is when we're working to get and so
to that shopkeeper, I would I would again say, hey,
let's do more of what works and what's been working
for a number of months now across many urban centers.
I think the rest of New Zealand must get a
little bit tired of Auckland because there's a lot of
talk about Auckland. But Auckland is a good example because
(13:19):
council staff and our providers, our outreach providers have been
going on joint visits and connecting with rough sleepers and
streets where they are and getting them at scale into
some awesome innovations, particularly like the day program for example,
that is running that. We've got various day programs where
(13:40):
there are safe places for streets and rough sleepers to
be during the day, to sleep unmolested and to do
some creative stuff. Do some art, do some music, do
some do some do some other things, and most of
them will be together in a safe place. Because you
might not know it, but there's a really strong community
within the rough sleeping and street community and and it's
(14:00):
important for them as it is for all of us
to spend time with each other socializing. And so don't
be afraid to get on the phone and call one
of our providers if you've got a concern, and we'll respond.
We have outreach teams and we can come and help
meet people where they are and to the shopkeeper that
might be on the front door of your shop. But
(14:24):
enforcement lad approaches that just displace the problem and keep
the can down the road are not the way to go.
Let's do what works instead. I mean that being one
is legally know.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
What we're criminalizing is a refusal to follow a move
on order. So when police come along and say to somebody,
if you're being disorderly or doing one of the behaviors
that's outlined with this legislation, and you refuse to comply,
then you can be arrested.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
What apps what is the.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Pigs is that they're rough sleeping somewhere and they're told
to move on. Does that mean the fact that they
were just rough sleeping is not allowed?
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Well, what is criminalized is refusing to follow a move
on order. And that's what we're trying to do. We're
wanting to reclaim the seats are the streets of our
city for the enjoyment of people who come and live
here and work here.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I see these comments online and this is a conversation
that's being had time and time and time again. But
I'm seeing a lot less compassion for rough sleepers right
I'm seeing more people just be bothered that they have
to walk past someone in a blanket on their way
(15:45):
to work every morning. I'm seeing people, you know, frustrated
that they pay taxes, and people in the street begging
or window washing or what have you don't have to do.
You think that we just need to become more compassionate
towards each other and understand and at the end of
the day, one wrong turn, this could be you.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah, I think a couple of really good points you've
made there, and many many New Zealanders are one life
event away from this sort of possibility being in their future.
There are now over one hundred and eighty thousand households
that's not people. So a family is a household of
five maybe, or it could be someone living on their own.
(16:25):
There are over one hundred and eighty thousand households across
the whole of New Zealand who are now paying over
thirty forty fifty percent even up to seventy and eighty
percent of their income on rent. And so one thing
goes wrong for you, the car breaks down, you can't
get to work, you lose your job out, you spell,
and so it could be you, it could be me,
(16:46):
It could be any of us. And I think that's
a helpful reference point for people when they are having
that awkward moment on the street of walking past a
rough sleeper. Just to reflect on compassion is huge important
and we're at a critical juncture I think now, as
human beings in Altia or in New Zealand, considering what
(17:09):
sort of a place we want to live in. Because
if you want to view of the future, go to
the States and see what enforcement lead approaches have led
to there, which is an I interviewed a professor from
the University of Texas on this last week. They have
these huge encampments just outside of towns and cities all
over the country. We have the beginnings of one of
those in the Red Zone in christ Church now where
(17:31):
a lot of streats and homeless people are beginning to
build an encampment. Is that the sort of society we
want to be and want to live in? And I
think it's important for all New Zealanders to understand that
homelessness is a political choice. We made a bunch of
choices over the last thirty five years in terms of
(17:51):
our policies and our funding settings, and this is the
fruit of those choices that we've made, and we have
the power and the resources to make different choices. It's
really up to us, but it's up to all of us,
not just community housing providers in the police.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Thanks for joining us, Paul, so.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
It please to Chelsea anytime.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot enz The front page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine. Dicky is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page
(18:35):
on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts,
and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.
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