April 15, 2026 • 19 mins
Illicit tobacco is quietly taking hold across New Zealand.
A Retail NZ report warns the country could soon face the same violent black-market spiral seen in Australia.
It has found more than a quarter of smokers are using illicit tobacco - most sourced from China and the Middle East.
Some cartons are being sold for as little as 15 dollars - with supply controlled by organised crime groups.
So what’s driving this trade, and how serious is the threat?
Today on The Front Page, CEO Carolyn Young is with us to talk about the report’s findings and what action we need to take now.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kyoda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Elicit tobacco
is quietly taking hold across New Zealand. A retail and
z report warns the country could soon face the same
violent black market spiral that's been seen in Australia. It's
(00:30):
found more than a quarter of Kiwi smokers are using
illicit tobacco, most sourced from China and the Middle East.
Some cartons are being sold for as little as fifteen dollars,
with supply controlled by organized crime groups. So what's driving
this trade and how serious is this threat? Today on
(00:51):
the Front Page, CEO Carolyn Young is with us to
talk about the report's findings and what action we need
to take now. First off, Carolyn, tell me about the
illicit tobacco trade in New Zealand as it stands.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, look, it's it's actually much bigger than people think.
You know, reports show that it's up to twenty seven
percent of the current sales are actually illicit tobacco, which
is quite a sizable number. And so what we're seeing
happening is that you know, tobacco is getting through customs.
It's you know, it's not getting called at the border,
(01:30):
so it's getting into the country. And then what happens
is that it's in the hands of organized crime. They
they set up a shop like a tobacco store, we
call it that, and selling alicit tobacco another tobacco paraphernalia.
They operate cash only. They sell about one point eight
million dollars worth of product in a year and they're
(01:52):
selling tobacco at a price point around forty to thirty
well thirty to forty percent of the full price, so
you know, thirteen to fifteen dollars versus forty to fifty dollars,
so a significant reduction in price. There's no controls around,
you know, are they checking that someone's over eighteen. They've
(02:12):
got them on display so effectively advertised, which was against
you know, the legislative requirements. Then the branded packets so
you know they're out there and seeing rather than being
behind a closed and a closed covered why you can't
see them and with big health warnings on them. So
it's quite a different marketplace. And that's how it started
in Australia is where you know you had businesses setting up,
(02:36):
popping up these stores and they operated cheap tobacco. And
so from there the international gangs in Australia they came
in and then they threatened other businesses and insisted that
they sell the tobacco, that they sell them and if
they didn't, they would five on their business, they would
threaten their family. And that's where a lot of the
(02:57):
crime is started from in Australia. So that the retail
crime and their listit tobacco crime is just escalated, with
one hundred and twenty five five bombings last year of Victoria.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Alone, so massive problem.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
And in Australia it's about eighty percent seventy five to
eighty percent of the sales in Australia are reported to
be illicit tobacco.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
What are the penalties in New Zealand at the moment,
I suppose if someone is caught selling or importing tobacco products.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, look relatively low.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
So there's a fine that you can get of you know,
sort of five to twenty thousand dollars something like that.
You may get imprisonment of up to six months.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So you know, these businesses.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
That are the organized crime groups that are running the
delicit tobacco, they aren't just doing one store. We know
from talking to investigators in the health department that you
know they could link seven stores together. You're talking about
nearly thirteen million dollars a year and turnover that is
list at tobacco. So you know, six months in jail
(04:03):
is if they get charged in court and all of
those things and it goes to court and get and
they go to prison. Six months is a lot less
than if you get caught for doing meth. Now, obviously
that there's a difference in there. Tobacco is a legal
product that you can sell. You could set up a store,
I could set up a store. You don't have to
be licensed, you just have to comply to the legislation.
(04:25):
So whereas meth is a legal product. But we know
that smoking kills and we know that it brings organized crime,
which brings that violent and aggressive behavior that we've seen
in Australia, which redial crime is a really big issue
for retailers. Now, we don't want it escalating to a
higher level and we don't want illegal products in the
(04:47):
retail environment.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Well, is New Zealand seeing those early signs of organized
crime infiltrating retail sectors like what's happened in Australia with
the so called like tobacco wars I think they call it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, absolutely, it's already started, and so the majority of
that can be you know, it's a mix really, I suppose,
is what we'd say, between a small dairy, for example,
selling cheap tobacco under the counter and these pop up
tobacco stores that are solely selling I listitt tobacco.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
So there's a mix around those things, and you know, the.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Health department can control the ones that they know about.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
They can go in and do some work.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Takes a lot of time, but we're not more popping
up than are being caught. And so the escalation and
the speed at which happened in Australia was really rapid,
and so we just feel we've got this window of
opportunity to actually shut.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
The door before the horse bolts.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Whereas in Australia they put in tough legislation and tough
measures once was completely out of control and they haven't
been able to you know, the new measures that got
have not controlled and brought it back into line of
where they wanted it to.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
In Australia as well, though, I think that you can't
buy vapes in some states. I mean, I think it's
prescription only or something, but they're being sold under the
counter as well. Is that where we kind of have
a leg up? I suppose that you can buy nicotine
vapes in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Look, having access to vaping as a smoke free alternative
is a really good transition from smokers into a smoke
free in a non smoking environment. So it is really
a smoking cessation tool. And we have adopted a different
strategy than Australia, and we think that's a great strategy,
and there might be other products that might need to
(06:38):
be considered as part of the combat and the battle
against US at tobacco and New Zealand. Because we can
catch it early, we've got that opportunity to investigate that further.
The interesting thing with the vaping, of course, is that
if you sell vape products, you have to be registered
and licensed is a whole set of regulations that sit
(06:59):
around there.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
But with tobacco you don't have to be yet.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
We know tobacco curls and it does a lot of
harm and we've really.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Outlined that in the report. But you know, the research at.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
The stage is that vaping is much less harmful than tobacco,
so you know, maybe there should be some sort of
look at the alignment between how vaping issault to how
tobacco is sold.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
If I wanted to go set up a business and
you know, to have a tobacco store, Chelsea's Tobacco store,
I can do that without any checks and balances at
the moment. But if I wanted a Chelsea vape store,
I would have to go through the checks and balances.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah, you'd have to apply to the Mystry Health for
a license. And it's a completely controlled environment, so it's
much more rigorous.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
There's a lot more rigor, and I think.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
That's what we've sort of indicated in that forward piece.
We have said, you know, we often have let products
into the New Zealand environment and we haven't.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Really set up a regulatory regime. We're really understood what
harm they might cause.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
You may be too young to remember, but not that
many years ago we had synthetic cannabis that came into
the New Zealand market and before it was assessed about
how dangerous it could or couldn't be, it was able.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
It was available to be sold and bought.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Before regulations came in place to frame up what you
could do in terms of that space. So we're saying,
let's actually really understand what's needed.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And put the framework around it.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
You have an elicit Tobacco task force like what they've
done in Australia, get a round table together to sit
down and actually have the experts from health, customs, police,
retailers in the room to really understand what is it
needed to make sure that we have a safe environment
and what are the other considerations.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
That should be looked at.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Because it's not a one track pony like an elicit
tobacco task force won't solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
You need to have.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
It's a multi ProMED approach and you need to all
be working together and collaboratively.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So I think there's a bit of work yet to
be done.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
What are some of the other prongs.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Well, you could consider licensing, so you could consider whether
or not you need to be licensed to sell tobacco.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
The government could.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Consider whether we should sign up to the WHO protocols,
which is the World Health Organization protocols around smoke free
So there's a range of those sorts of things that
could be considered. You could review the level of excise.
We know that one of the reasons that Australia is
such a target for elicit market is because the excise
is so high. Now, you know, we know an economics,
(09:26):
supply and demand work to a certain point, and if
you know something's pushed too far, then the price gets
too high, the illicit market opens up. So at what
level is the excise text the right level? Assessing that
and really taking that opportunity to determine that that could
be something or it should be something else that's looked at.
So I think there's a range of things that need
(09:46):
to be considered to come out with those right.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Protocols, because I think that isn't there like three hundred
and fifty odd thousands regular smokers in New Zealand today
thereabouts they reckon. Presumably they're the toughest everyone in the
smoke free initiative, and we obviously didn't hit it in
twenty twenty five, but everyone in the smoke free initiative
who has had a chance to quit probably already has.
(10:11):
And this is the last group that are obviously quite
happy to pay fifty dollars will not happy, but you
know what I mean, they do pay that exorbitant amount
for cigarettes with the excise tax, so there is really
a cat like it feels like there is a cap
when it comes to the excise tax. Already it feels
(10:34):
like that.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
But what we've seen is that the taking and the
exercise is actually decreased by about something like fifteen percent
over the last seven months. And that's because you know,
there's less being sold, but there's not less than consumed.
What we're also concerned about is that in order to
meet those smoke free targets, we need to make sure
that young people don't take up smoking. Now, if people
(10:54):
are buying cigarettes through an illicit tobacco store, they're not
going to be checking with someone's eighteen. Their whole point
is to sell the tobacco right, and at a price
of thirteen or fifteen dollars, it's much more affordable. It's
a big cost on the health system. And what we
don't want to see is control of tobacco through international
(11:15):
crime syndicates. We know that one of the brands comes
in from the Middle East and another brand comes in
from Asia, and now the two big brands, one's called
Manchester and others called Double Happiness, and they are the
tokey brands that are coming in and that are in
the New Zealand market already, and are the brands that
are very prominent in Australia. So we believe there's a
(11:36):
link between what's here and what's happening in Australia and
we want to make sure that that level of.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Crime doesn't happen in the retail environment in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Do you think consumers think of the fact that they're
happy to buy this packet of cigarettes for thirteen fifteen dollars?
Presumably the organized crime group isn't only important illicit tobacco,
they're also responsible for math. But do you think that people, oh,
it's you know, it's tobacco, it's legal. Otherwise I'm just
(12:10):
getting it cheaper. But that money actually goes to these
organized crime groups? Hey, how do you how do you
think we can get that through to people? And especially
during a cost of living crisis as well.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I suppose you've.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Hit the nail on the head, right, because you know
that if you think that on average, we did the
numbers of her stores, you know, selling around five thousand
dollars a day. You know, you take that and they've
got seven stores in their chain. You know, that's nearly
this something like twelve point eight million dollars something like
that a year. Now, that money is not going back
into the economy. It's buying guns, it's buying myths, that's
(12:43):
setting up meth houses, it's doing other criminal activity that's
not where we want to be heading in New Zealand.
And so the money that's being made from the sale
of a lissuch tobacco is going into other criminal activities.
If you talk to the place, they're absolutely clear about
what international crime gangs do and what harm they could
(13:03):
cause in the New Zealand environment. So that is that
education piece because it will be unknown, right if you
don't smoke, then you're not going into a store to
buy tobacco. You're unaware of how much they might be
and what a secondary market could do to the New
Zealand environment. And that's the key thing is that you know,
(13:23):
making sure that we really understand those lessons from Australia
and the large level of crime that's happened over there
and continues to happen because it's a big two four
between the big gangs. So the two big international gangs,
that's what's causing a lot of these things is that
they're wanted to take over areas of towns and suburbs,
and so they're threatening retailers, legitimate retailers around having to
(13:47):
sell their tobacco and their stores having to meet certain
levels and really taking the money back through. So it's
a really difficult environment for a retailer.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
There was this one guy that rang me up in
He was just really frustrated about his past quote attempts.
He had tried quitting smoking six times before. I found
out that he was a wicked gamer like me, Do.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
You play Xbox?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
So I said to him, you know, each quarter attempt
is kind of like, you know, each stage to a game,
So every time you complete one of those stages, you
actually get closer to.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Finishing the game.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Now he's on his way to a seventh quart attempt,
and I think he's actually going to make it this time.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Now. I saw that in the report Retail New Zealand.
Obviously declaration of interest is important and it lists major
tobacco manufacturers as among its members. I suppose, how does
Retail New Zealand ensure that kind of important independence and
credibility when addressing tobacco policy? But then also representing manufacturers.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Well, retail and retail adjacent businesses.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
So we've you know, anyone that's you know that that
works in retail is what we represent. We represent best practice.
So what we've done in the report is that we've
actually produced the report. Internally, we have sat down and
talked to a lot of people. We've researched online, what's
been happening overseas, what's been happening in Australia. We've talked
to the police, we've talked to health, we've talked to customs.
(15:22):
We haven't distributed the report to anyone until today and
so that you know, we weren't influenced by anybody else
is thinking and we don't have all the answers, but
what we know is that there's a range of things
that needs to be considered. And when we looked deeply
into Australia and what they've done and what they could
have perhaps done earlier, that's where our suggestions are and
(15:44):
we're saying more work needs to be done to consider
how those things would play out. What would a role
of a of an Illicit Tobacco task force be and
you know, what does it? What skills do they need,
how much money do they need? How would they attack
this problem? And how could a framework be used to
you know, assess other new products that we don't even
(16:07):
know about that might come into New Zealand. So it
could be part of the valuation process. So that roundtable
is really critical in having people from health and police
and customs on that roundtable. What we ensure, you know,
the tobacco companies wouldn't be at the table.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
They're not there.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
It's not part of their gig. This is about policy
and understanding how to combat elicit tobacco in the New
Zealand market.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Presumably tobacco manufacturers though, would want you know, ShopKeep peepers
to be safe when legitimately selling their products.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
I suppose yeah, Look, and I think you know obviously
for from a tobacco perspective, I can't speak on their behalf.
But what we do know is that you know, we
support and I am my understanding is that they also
support the.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Smoke free legislation.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
So their market or their business has a declining sales
space anyway, right because we know we're trying to have
less people's smoke because we know how harmful it is.
But what we're wanting to make sure is that it's
a safe market and that we don't have threats of
violence to people's families and businesses and five bombs and
(17:17):
things like that happening in the New Zealand environment.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
What have you been hearing from people on the ground
at the coal face.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Well, the challenge for businesses, so what we know has
happened in some areas is that there'll be one of
these sort of tobacco stores that's set up right next
to a souper eat or a dairy or someone that
sells tobacco, and so they're losing customers.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So the customers that come in and.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Buy a packet of cigarettes, they might also buy the paper,
a bottle of milk, and a loaf of bread. So
now they're not getting any of those sales because they
know they're going to the soupermarket or else where to
buy the other items because they're not already in store.
So they're losing sales or something that is adjacent to
the cigarettes that they're selling. So it just makes it
(18:02):
a much harder environment for them to stay open without
I guess turning to the dark side and saying, actually,
you know, going next door and saying can I buy
some of those cigarettes? Because you know if you can't,
you can't beat them, you join them, right, and we
want to make sure that that's what doesn't happen here.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Have you heard of any instances in New Zealand where
shopkeepers or dairy owners have been threatened and told you
must sell this product for us?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Personally, I haven't heard that, but there may be some
information from some of the some of the health investigators.
They may have found some of that. I'm not sure,
but that's.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Because that's what's happening in Australia though.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Hey, that's right, yeah, and so that's that's the next
phase that rolls through. And I think this is where
we're saying, we've got this window of opportunity to take action.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Look, we have.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Obviously said the report to the minister, and so the
Minister has has reviewed the reporters, supportive of our findings
and is wanting to do some work around getting police,
Customs and house together to understand how could we get
better outcomes than what we're getting currently.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Thanks for joining us, Carolyn.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Cole, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine Dicky is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page
(19:37):
on the iheartapp or wherever you get your podcasts, and
join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.
Kyoda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Elicit tobacco
is quietly taking hold across New Zealand. A retail and
z report warns the country could soon face the same
violent black market spiral that's been seen in Australia. It's
(00:30):
found more than a quarter of Kiwi smokers are using
illicit tobacco, most sourced from China and the Middle East.
Some cartons are being sold for as little as fifteen dollars,
with supply controlled by organized crime groups. So what's driving
this trade and how serious is this threat? Today on
(00:51):
the Front Page, CEO Carolyn Young is with us to
talk about the report's findings and what action we need
to take now. First off, Carolyn, tell me about the
illicit tobacco trade in New Zealand as it stands.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, look, it's it's actually much bigger than people think.
You know, reports show that it's up to twenty seven
percent of the current sales are actually illicit tobacco, which
is quite a sizable number. And so what we're seeing
happening is that you know, tobacco is getting through customs.
It's you know, it's not getting called at the border,
(01:30):
so it's getting into the country. And then what happens
is that it's in the hands of organized crime. They
they set up a shop like a tobacco store, we
call it that, and selling alicit tobacco another tobacco paraphernalia.
They operate cash only. They sell about one point eight
million dollars worth of product in a year and they're
(01:52):
selling tobacco at a price point around forty to thirty
well thirty to forty percent of the full price, so
you know, thirteen to fifteen dollars versus forty to fifty dollars,
so a significant reduction in price. There's no controls around,
you know, are they checking that someone's over eighteen. They've
(02:12):
got them on display so effectively advertised, which was against
you know, the legislative requirements. Then the branded packets so
you know they're out there and seeing rather than being
behind a closed and a closed covered why you can't
see them and with big health warnings on them. So
it's quite a different marketplace. And that's how it started
in Australia is where you know you had businesses setting up,
(02:36):
popping up these stores and they operated cheap tobacco. And
so from there the international gangs in Australia they came
in and then they threatened other businesses and insisted that
they sell the tobacco, that they sell them and if
they didn't, they would five on their business, they would
threaten their family. And that's where a lot of the
(02:57):
crime is started from in Australia. So that the retail
crime and their listit tobacco crime is just escalated, with
one hundred and twenty five five bombings last year of Victoria.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Alone, so massive problem.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
And in Australia it's about eighty percent seventy five to
eighty percent of the sales in Australia are reported to
be illicit tobacco.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
What are the penalties in New Zealand at the moment,
I suppose if someone is caught selling or importing tobacco products.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, look relatively low.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
So there's a fine that you can get of you know,
sort of five to twenty thousand dollars something like that.
You may get imprisonment of up to six months.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So you know, these businesses.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
That are the organized crime groups that are running the
delicit tobacco, they aren't just doing one store. We know
from talking to investigators in the health department that you
know they could link seven stores together. You're talking about
nearly thirteen million dollars a year and turnover that is
list at tobacco. So you know, six months in jail
(04:03):
is if they get charged in court and all of
those things and it goes to court and get and
they go to prison. Six months is a lot less
than if you get caught for doing meth. Now, obviously
that there's a difference in there. Tobacco is a legal
product that you can sell. You could set up a store,
I could set up a store. You don't have to
be licensed, you just have to comply to the legislation.
(04:25):
So whereas meth is a legal product. But we know
that smoking kills and we know that it brings organized crime,
which brings that violent and aggressive behavior that we've seen
in Australia, which redial crime is a really big issue
for retailers. Now, we don't want it escalating to a
higher level and we don't want illegal products in the
(04:47):
retail environment.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Well, is New Zealand seeing those early signs of organized
crime infiltrating retail sectors like what's happened in Australia with
the so called like tobacco wars I think they call it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, absolutely, it's already started, and so the majority of
that can be you know, it's a mix really, I suppose,
is what we'd say, between a small dairy, for example,
selling cheap tobacco under the counter and these pop up
tobacco stores that are solely selling I listitt tobacco.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
So there's a mix around those things, and you know, the.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Health department can control the ones that they know about.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
They can go in and do some work.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Takes a lot of time, but we're not more popping
up than are being caught. And so the escalation and
the speed at which happened in Australia was really rapid,
and so we just feel we've got this window of
opportunity to actually shut.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
The door before the horse bolts.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Whereas in Australia they put in tough legislation and tough
measures once was completely out of control and they haven't
been able to you know, the new measures that got
have not controlled and brought it back into line of
where they wanted it to.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
In Australia as well, though, I think that you can't
buy vapes in some states. I mean, I think it's
prescription only or something, but they're being sold under the
counter as well. Is that where we kind of have
a leg up? I suppose that you can buy nicotine
vapes in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Look, having access to vaping as a smoke free alternative
is a really good transition from smokers into a smoke
free in a non smoking environment. So it is really
a smoking cessation tool. And we have adopted a different
strategy than Australia, and we think that's a great strategy,
and there might be other products that might need to
(06:38):
be considered as part of the combat and the battle
against US at tobacco and New Zealand. Because we can
catch it early, we've got that opportunity to investigate that further.
The interesting thing with the vaping, of course, is that
if you sell vape products, you have to be registered
and licensed is a whole set of regulations that sit
(06:59):
around there.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
But with tobacco you don't have to be yet.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
We know tobacco curls and it does a lot of
harm and we've really.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Outlined that in the report. But you know, the research at.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
The stage is that vaping is much less harmful than tobacco,
so you know, maybe there should be some sort of
look at the alignment between how vaping issault to how
tobacco is sold.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
If I wanted to go set up a business and
you know, to have a tobacco store, Chelsea's Tobacco store,
I can do that without any checks and balances at
the moment. But if I wanted a Chelsea vape store,
I would have to go through the checks and balances.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah, you'd have to apply to the Mystry Health for
a license. And it's a completely controlled environment, so it's
much more rigorous.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
There's a lot more rigor, and I think.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
That's what we've sort of indicated in that forward piece.
We have said, you know, we often have let products
into the New Zealand environment and we haven't.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Really set up a regulatory regime. We're really understood what
harm they might cause.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
You may be too young to remember, but not that
many years ago we had synthetic cannabis that came into
the New Zealand market and before it was assessed about
how dangerous it could or couldn't be, it was able.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
It was available to be sold and bought.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Before regulations came in place to frame up what you
could do in terms of that space. So we're saying,
let's actually really understand what's needed.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And put the framework around it.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
You have an elicit Tobacco task force like what they've
done in Australia, get a round table together to sit
down and actually have the experts from health, customs, police,
retailers in the room to really understand what is it
needed to make sure that we have a safe environment
and what are the other considerations.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
That should be looked at.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Because it's not a one track pony like an elicit
tobacco task force won't solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
You need to have.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
It's a multi ProMED approach and you need to all
be working together and collaboratively.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So I think there's a bit of work yet to
be done.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
What are some of the other prongs.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Well, you could consider licensing, so you could consider whether
or not you need to be licensed to sell tobacco.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
The government could.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Consider whether we should sign up to the WHO protocols,
which is the World Health Organization protocols around smoke free
So there's a range of those sorts of things that
could be considered. You could review the level of excise.
We know that one of the reasons that Australia is
such a target for elicit market is because the excise
is so high. Now, you know, we know an economics,
(09:26):
supply and demand work to a certain point, and if
you know something's pushed too far, then the price gets
too high, the illicit market opens up. So at what
level is the excise text the right level? Assessing that
and really taking that opportunity to determine that that could
be something or it should be something else that's looked at.
So I think there's a range of things that need
(09:46):
to be considered to come out with those right.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Protocols, because I think that isn't there like three hundred
and fifty odd thousands regular smokers in New Zealand today
thereabouts they reckon. Presumably they're the toughest everyone in the
smoke free initiative, and we obviously didn't hit it in
twenty twenty five, but everyone in the smoke free initiative
who has had a chance to quit probably already has.
(10:11):
And this is the last group that are obviously quite
happy to pay fifty dollars will not happy, but you
know what I mean, they do pay that exorbitant amount
for cigarettes with the excise tax, so there is really
a cat like it feels like there is a cap
when it comes to the excise tax. Already it feels
(10:34):
like that.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
But what we've seen is that the taking and the
exercise is actually decreased by about something like fifteen percent
over the last seven months. And that's because you know,
there's less being sold, but there's not less than consumed.
What we're also concerned about is that in order to
meet those smoke free targets, we need to make sure
that young people don't take up smoking. Now, if people
(10:54):
are buying cigarettes through an illicit tobacco store, they're not
going to be checking with someone's eighteen. Their whole point
is to sell the tobacco right, and at a price
of thirteen or fifteen dollars, it's much more affordable. It's
a big cost on the health system. And what we
don't want to see is control of tobacco through international
(11:15):
crime syndicates. We know that one of the brands comes
in from the Middle East and another brand comes in
from Asia, and now the two big brands, one's called
Manchester and others called Double Happiness, and they are the
tokey brands that are coming in and that are in
the New Zealand market already, and are the brands that
are very prominent in Australia. So we believe there's a
(11:36):
link between what's here and what's happening in Australia and
we want to make sure that that level of.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Crime doesn't happen in the retail environment in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Do you think consumers think of the fact that they're
happy to buy this packet of cigarettes for thirteen fifteen dollars?
Presumably the organized crime group isn't only important illicit tobacco,
they're also responsible for math. But do you think that people, oh,
it's you know, it's tobacco, it's legal. Otherwise I'm just
(12:10):
getting it cheaper. But that money actually goes to these
organized crime groups? Hey, how do you how do you
think we can get that through to people? And especially
during a cost of living crisis as well.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I suppose you've.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Hit the nail on the head, right, because you know
that if you think that on average, we did the
numbers of her stores, you know, selling around five thousand
dollars a day. You know, you take that and they've
got seven stores in their chain. You know, that's nearly
this something like twelve point eight million dollars something like
that a year. Now, that money is not going back
into the economy. It's buying guns, it's buying myths, that's
(12:43):
setting up meth houses, it's doing other criminal activity that's
not where we want to be heading in New Zealand.
And so the money that's being made from the sale
of a lissuch tobacco is going into other criminal activities.
If you talk to the place, they're absolutely clear about
what international crime gangs do and what harm they could
(13:03):
cause in the New Zealand environment. So that is that
education piece because it will be unknown, right if you
don't smoke, then you're not going into a store to
buy tobacco. You're unaware of how much they might be
and what a secondary market could do to the New
Zealand environment. And that's the key thing is that you know,
(13:23):
making sure that we really understand those lessons from Australia
and the large level of crime that's happened over there
and continues to happen because it's a big two four
between the big gangs. So the two big international gangs,
that's what's causing a lot of these things is that
they're wanted to take over areas of towns and suburbs,
and so they're threatening retailers, legitimate retailers around having to
(13:47):
sell their tobacco and their stores having to meet certain
levels and really taking the money back through. So it's
a really difficult environment for a retailer.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
There was this one guy that rang me up in
He was just really frustrated about his past quote attempts.
He had tried quitting smoking six times before. I found
out that he was a wicked gamer like me, Do.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
You play Xbox?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
So I said to him, you know, each quarter attempt
is kind of like, you know, each stage to a game,
So every time you complete one of those stages, you
actually get closer to.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Finishing the game.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Now he's on his way to a seventh quart attempt,
and I think he's actually going to make it this time.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Now. I saw that in the report Retail New Zealand.
Obviously declaration of interest is important and it lists major
tobacco manufacturers as among its members. I suppose, how does
Retail New Zealand ensure that kind of important independence and
credibility when addressing tobacco policy? But then also representing manufacturers.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Well, retail and retail adjacent businesses.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
So we've you know, anyone that's you know that that
works in retail is what we represent. We represent best practice.
So what we've done in the report is that we've
actually produced the report. Internally, we have sat down and
talked to a lot of people. We've researched online, what's
been happening overseas, what's been happening in Australia. We've talked
to the police, we've talked to health, we've talked to customs.
(15:22):
We haven't distributed the report to anyone until today and
so that you know, we weren't influenced by anybody else
is thinking and we don't have all the answers, but
what we know is that there's a range of things
that needs to be considered. And when we looked deeply
into Australia and what they've done and what they could
have perhaps done earlier, that's where our suggestions are and
(15:44):
we're saying more work needs to be done to consider
how those things would play out. What would a role
of a of an Illicit Tobacco task force be and
you know, what does it? What skills do they need,
how much money do they need? How would they attack
this problem? And how could a framework be used to
you know, assess other new products that we don't even
(16:07):
know about that might come into New Zealand. So it
could be part of the valuation process. So that roundtable
is really critical in having people from health and police
and customs on that roundtable. What we ensure, you know,
the tobacco companies wouldn't be at the table.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
They're not there.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
It's not part of their gig. This is about policy
and understanding how to combat elicit tobacco in the New
Zealand market.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Presumably tobacco manufacturers though, would want you know, ShopKeep peepers
to be safe when legitimately selling their products.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
I suppose yeah, Look, and I think you know obviously
for from a tobacco perspective, I can't speak on their behalf.
But what we do know is that you know, we
support and I am my understanding is that they also
support the.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Smoke free legislation.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
So their market or their business has a declining sales
space anyway, right because we know we're trying to have
less people's smoke because we know how harmful it is.
But what we're wanting to make sure is that it's
a safe market and that we don't have threats of
violence to people's families and businesses and five bombs and
(17:17):
things like that happening in the New Zealand environment.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
What have you been hearing from people on the ground
at the coal face.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Well, the challenge for businesses, so what we know has
happened in some areas is that there'll be one of
these sort of tobacco stores that's set up right next
to a souper eat or a dairy or someone that
sells tobacco, and so they're losing customers.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So the customers that come in and.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Buy a packet of cigarettes, they might also buy the paper,
a bottle of milk, and a loaf of bread. So
now they're not getting any of those sales because they
know they're going to the soupermarket or else where to
buy the other items because they're not already in store.
So they're losing sales or something that is adjacent to
the cigarettes that they're selling. So it just makes it
(18:02):
a much harder environment for them to stay open without
I guess turning to the dark side and saying, actually,
you know, going next door and saying can I buy
some of those cigarettes? Because you know if you can't,
you can't beat them, you join them, right, and we
want to make sure that that's what doesn't happen here.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Have you heard of any instances in New Zealand where
shopkeepers or dairy owners have been threatened and told you
must sell this product for us?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Personally, I haven't heard that, but there may be some
information from some of the some of the health investigators.
They may have found some of that. I'm not sure,
but that's.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Because that's what's happening in Australia though.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Hey, that's right, yeah, and so that's that's the next
phase that rolls through. And I think this is where
we're saying, we've got this window of opportunity to take action.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Look, we have.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Obviously said the report to the minister, and so the
Minister has has reviewed the reporters, supportive of our findings
and is wanting to do some work around getting police,
Customs and house together to understand how could we get
better outcomes than what we're getting currently.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Thanks for joining us, Carolyn.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Cole, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine Dicky is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page
(19:37):
on the iheartapp or wherever you get your podcasts, and
join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.
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