March 15, 2026 • 16 mins
A major barrier to escaping family violence, is the heartache of leaving your pet behind to get out.
Every day, pets are used as tool to control and harm victims experiencing family violence.
Pet Refuge provides a safe, temporary haven for pets – and demand for their shelter is at an all-time high.
They’ve reported a 19% increase year on year for help.
So, what does this say about New Zealand’s unacceptably high and persistent rate of family violence?
Today on The Front Page, Dame Julie Chapman is with us to take us through the often forgotten lives of the pets caught in the crossfire.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Just a warning. This episode contains details about cruelty to
animals that some of our audience may find upsetting. Please
take care while listening, Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. A major
barrier to escaping family violence is the heartache of leaving your.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Pet behind to get out.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Every day, pets are used as a tool to control
and harm victims experiencing family violence. Pet Refuge provides a safe,
temporary haven for pets, and demand for their shelter is
at an all time high. They've reported a nineteen percent
increase year on year for help.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
So what does this say about New.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Zealand's unacceptably high and persue assistant rate of family violence?
Today on the Front Page, Dame Julie Chapman is with
us to take us through the often forgotten lives of
the pets caught in the crossfire.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Julie, So there's been a huge.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Jump in demand for this kind of support, Tell me
about it.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, there really has.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
I think is more awareness grows of the service that
we provide. We're getting more referrals than ever from women's
refuge police and also victims of family violence themselves. And
in the last year we have supported one hundred and
twenty one families, which is a nineteen percent increase on
(01:45):
the previous year, and I think.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Early indications are.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
This year that that is not slowing down, and I
think it's you know, for your viewers and listeners, what's
important to unders stand about what Pet Refuge does is
when a pet comes into our care, they can end
up staying with us for up to four months. So
it's a heavy commitment that we make to keeping those
(02:12):
pets safe for as long as they need while their
families are in women's refuge, emergency housing and securing their
own safety.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
How are pets usually used in family violence situations?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah, this is the really awful, heartbreaking, sad part that's
been quite hidden for a long time. Pets are used
as a means of coercive control. And what that means
is often abusive partners will injure the pet intentionally or
(02:49):
threaten to injure the pet. They do that to gain
control over their partners or children. Often children will witnessed
their pet being injured or hurt, and we have seen
some horrific cases of injury and even threats of death
(03:14):
being carried out against pets, family pets, and it's all
about that control. Ninety percent of the pets that come
to us have some kind of issue or medical issue
or injury that needs treatment over and above your normal
flea worm vaccination because of the abuse that they've had
(03:36):
to suffer.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, I can imagine. So dogs and cats must be
the top targets. Have you ever seen any kind of
any other animals come through to pet refuge? What if
I've got, you know, a pataguana or.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Something, well, we can help you.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
So we have had and we taken and look after
animals of all types.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So just sort of talking about what that looks like.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
We've had fish and a few and new people wonder.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
What can be done to fish. Well, we know that
sometimes when a family might have fish, an abusive person
will tip chemicals into the fish tank which then kills
the fish and as a form of control or a
threat to the people and the children.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
So we have had fish, we have had water dragons,
so lizards, we've had obviously, rabbits, guinea pigs, and then.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
There's your larger farm animals.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
So we have looked after horses, cows, goats.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Then in the bird category, we've had.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Chickens, parrots, budgies, lorikeets, lovebirds, you name it. Anything that
is important as a family pet and companion for somebody.
Pet Refuge can look after them and we taken pets
from all over New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Anecdotally, I suppose it would be quite difficult if you're
in that kind of family violence situation and you don't
want to leave your beloved pet with the person that
you are trying to escape. What are some of the
reasons that women have given you as to how long
that they've stayed or what was that final push to say, look,
(05:33):
I've had enough, I'm leaving.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
So we know research actually shows that fifty three percent
of women delay leaving out of fear for their pets safety.
And the research also shows that around twenty three percent
have a family pet killed as part of family violence,
and that is the reason why victims stay longer.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
It's because they know that if.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
They leave their pet, it is likely that they will
be injured, neglected, abused, and they're part of the family.
And often for victims of family violence, you know, especially
women and children. And of course we help men as
well who need our support. That animal is their source
(06:23):
of comfort, it's their source of strength in a time
that they're going through this horrific situation. And so women
and men have literally told us that they haven't left
because until pet recuge came along, there was nowhere for
pets to go, and putting them into private boarding facilities
(06:49):
is expensive, can be up to forty dollars a day,
and of course financial abuse is a big part of
family violence as well, where money is with how and
not shared. So knowing that their pets are safe and
that they can stay with us while they secure their
own safety and rebuild their lives has literally given people
(07:11):
the impetus to make that decision.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And some people that.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
We have taught to have lived with this for twenty
or thirty years and had various pets over that time
that have suffered, and now they're saying enough because we
know there is a place for the pets to go.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
When you think of an example of this happening, what's
the first one that comes to mind, what's one that's
really stood out to you?
Speaker 4 (07:42):
It's pretty graphic, so I'll sort of keep the details
as top line as I can, but there are a
couple that have really stood out for me. One was
a dog that came to us actually three leaps at
the time, and that was because in a previous abuse
(08:08):
situation within that relationship, the perpetrator had broken the.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Dog's leg and it needed to be amputated.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
When that dog came to us, it had other injuries
when the person had finally decided to actually leave, including
cigarette burns, a burnt tail, and various other wounds and
things that were inflicted by the abuser. The other case
(08:37):
that I think will stay with me for a very
long time is where a dog was chained to a
back of a car and dragged along the street, and
that dog sustained horrific injuries. But for those listening who
(08:57):
feel upset by that, I think it's really good to
know that that woman and her dog are out of
the situation and the dog has actually fully healed now.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
But that took a long time and a.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Lot of specialist care, all of which Refuge is able
to cover.
Speaker 6 (09:21):
What's he life like now here, as I think that's
the most important.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
The ones obviously they're digging for sentry.
Speaker 6 (09:28):
They're having a good time with this toy here, and
I think this is pretty representative of what a day
in the shelter is. Like the phenomenal stuff we have here.
They understand how important each unique yet is. So it's
all about making sure that each pet is cared for
in the way that they need to be.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
That's enrichment, rehabilitation. We take care of all veterinary costs.
Speaker 6 (09:52):
Food costs, travel across the country to make sure that
we can offer a national service. And I think just
the love and the attention and the enrichment and the training,
it's just second to none, and good truths, great, true, great,
great tree.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I can imagine people could say something like, you know, well,
if you can't look after your pet, then just drop
it off to the SPCA or something. But I suppose
my initial reaction when someone might say that is well,
you've obviously never loved or I had a family pet before,
because I can imagine that the relationship with said pet
would actually help someone after they leave a violent situation
(10:34):
in terms of their journey on their journey to healing
as well.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
And I would be I'd have a pretty strong view
on saying why should a person that loves their pit
kids for their pet have to surrender their pet because
of the actions of someone else who was using that
pit as a means of control.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I would also say.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
You know, the SPCA overwhelmed with the number of you know,
abandoned and neglected pets, So it's not as easy as
you think to just go and drop off your pet
to the SPCA.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And when you're a person that.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Has that great love and that great connection with your pet,
the last thing you want to do when you're in
a violent situation is have to lose something else in
your life that that is part of you and as
part of your family. So I would absolutely say, unless
(11:38):
you've walked in somebody's shoes who's going through this situation,
you shouldn't be telling them they should just.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Give up their pet.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
This was obviously born from there being a massive gap
in the market, you know, market quote unquote. What do
you think are there any other gaps that need to
be filled in xist in New Zealand's family violence support
system kind of like this one.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Yeah, I mean, this idea literally came about from a
colleague of mine having a conversation with someone from a
woman's refuge, and the woman's refuge person saying I wish
there was somewhere for pets to go. And that was
a light bulb moment for me because I wanted to
do something for animals.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
For a really long time. And it was a big gap.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Because we have the highest statistics in the reporting rates
of family violence in the OECD. Sixty three percent of
New Zealand households also have a family pet. So when
you put those two things together, you can see that
that is a massive issue and that's why this service
is needed, and that's why we're seeing.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
The need grow all the time.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I think that one of the things that we're advocating
for and we have been doing some work with to
Tour and she's been working with Ministry of Justice to
look at how we can bring that part of the
legislation more to the forefront so that victims of family
(13:14):
violence when they're looking at protection orders, can actually understand
that there are things they can do to ask for
protection for their pets. In Australia, they've recently changed the
laws to give much greater protection for pets as part
of family violence, and so i'd love to see that continue,
(13:35):
that work continue to evolve here in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
The other thing that.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
I really really advocate for and really want to see
is when police are attending family family home family violence incidents,
on the form that they complete, I would love to
see a section added into that around pets in the
whole home and whether they need help in getting out
(14:04):
and help for those pets or whether those pets have
in fact been the subject of abuse as part of
that as well. So I'm on the case on that.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Well, it is just such the whole idea of it
is so obvious, yet at the same time so unseen. Hey,
we don't see anything said about it. And the fact
that that Pet Refuge was kind of the first organization
to even come up with a solution of any kind.
And I suppose do you think it's so unseen because
(14:38):
the stories and abuse in these types of situations is
so ghastly.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Oh, I definitely think that's one of the reasons. I
think it's it's always been there. And I mean when
we started and we built our first shelter, we had
this plan that we thought we would stick to where
we would start operating at fifty percent of our total capacity,
(15:06):
you know, to make sure that we had enough money
to be able to do that, because we rely on
donations and all of those things, well, that just completely
went out the window. We were operating within the first
few weeks at one hundred percent capacity. It was like
a floodgate had opened with the various agencies, women's refuge,
(15:27):
police and even with victims themselves where there was finally
something they could do to keep their pets safe. And
so it literally was the catalyst for quite a lot
of people to actually have the courage to leave. And
I think it's it's been hidden for so long because
(15:47):
the stories and the cases that our team deal with
on a daily basis are horrific. They're sad, they're extremely violent,
and a lot of people victims are so embarrassed to
even tell somebody that their pet is also suffering their
abuse as part of what they're going through.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Thanks for joining us, Julie, Thank.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
You so much, great to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot enz The Front Page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine. Dicky is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer is jane Ye. Follow the front page
(16:39):
on the iHeart app or wherever you get your.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Podcasts, and join us next time for another look beyond
the headlines.
Just a warning. This episode contains details about cruelty to
animals that some of our audience may find upsetting. Please
take care while listening, Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. A major
barrier to escaping family violence is the heartache of leaving your.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Pet behind to get out.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Every day, pets are used as a tool to control
and harm victims experiencing family violence. Pet Refuge provides a safe,
temporary haven for pets, and demand for their shelter is
at an all time high. They've reported a nineteen percent
increase year on year for help.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
So what does this say about New.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Zealand's unacceptably high and persue assistant rate of family violence?
Today on the Front Page, Dame Julie Chapman is with
us to take us through the often forgotten lives of
the pets caught in the crossfire.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Julie, So there's been a huge.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Jump in demand for this kind of support, Tell me
about it.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, there really has.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
I think is more awareness grows of the service that
we provide. We're getting more referrals than ever from women's
refuge police and also victims of family violence themselves. And
in the last year we have supported one hundred and
twenty one families, which is a nineteen percent increase on
(01:45):
the previous year, and I think.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Early indications are.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
This year that that is not slowing down, and I
think it's you know, for your viewers and listeners, what's
important to unders stand about what Pet Refuge does is
when a pet comes into our care, they can end
up staying with us for up to four months. So
it's a heavy commitment that we make to keeping those
(02:12):
pets safe for as long as they need while their
families are in women's refuge, emergency housing and securing their
own safety.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
How are pets usually used in family violence situations?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah, this is the really awful, heartbreaking, sad part that's
been quite hidden for a long time. Pets are used
as a means of coercive control. And what that means
is often abusive partners will injure the pet intentionally or
(02:49):
threaten to injure the pet. They do that to gain
control over their partners or children. Often children will witnessed
their pet being injured or hurt, and we have seen
some horrific cases of injury and even threats of death
(03:14):
being carried out against pets, family pets, and it's all
about that control. Ninety percent of the pets that come
to us have some kind of issue or medical issue
or injury that needs treatment over and above your normal
flea worm vaccination because of the abuse that they've had
(03:36):
to suffer.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, I can imagine. So dogs and cats must be
the top targets. Have you ever seen any kind of
any other animals come through to pet refuge? What if
I've got, you know, a pataguana or.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Something, well, we can help you.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
So we have had and we taken and look after
animals of all types.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So just sort of talking about what that looks like.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
We've had fish and a few and new people wonder.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
What can be done to fish. Well, we know that
sometimes when a family might have fish, an abusive person
will tip chemicals into the fish tank which then kills
the fish and as a form of control or a
threat to the people and the children.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
So we have had fish, we have had water dragons,
so lizards, we've had obviously, rabbits, guinea pigs, and then.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
There's your larger farm animals.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
So we have looked after horses, cows, goats.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Then in the bird category, we've had.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Chickens, parrots, budgies, lorikeets, lovebirds, you name it. Anything that
is important as a family pet and companion for somebody.
Pet Refuge can look after them and we taken pets
from all over New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Anecdotally, I suppose it would be quite difficult if you're
in that kind of family violence situation and you don't
want to leave your beloved pet with the person that
you are trying to escape. What are some of the
reasons that women have given you as to how long
that they've stayed or what was that final push to say, look,
(05:33):
I've had enough, I'm leaving.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
So we know research actually shows that fifty three percent
of women delay leaving out of fear for their pets safety.
And the research also shows that around twenty three percent
have a family pet killed as part of family violence,
and that is the reason why victims stay longer.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
It's because they know that if.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
They leave their pet, it is likely that they will
be injured, neglected, abused, and they're part of the family.
And often for victims of family violence, you know, especially
women and children. And of course we help men as
well who need our support. That animal is their source
(06:23):
of comfort, it's their source of strength in a time
that they're going through this horrific situation. And so women
and men have literally told us that they haven't left
because until pet recuge came along, there was nowhere for
pets to go, and putting them into private boarding facilities
(06:49):
is expensive, can be up to forty dollars a day,
and of course financial abuse is a big part of
family violence as well, where money is with how and
not shared. So knowing that their pets are safe and
that they can stay with us while they secure their
own safety and rebuild their lives has literally given people
(07:11):
the impetus to make that decision.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And some people that.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
We have taught to have lived with this for twenty
or thirty years and had various pets over that time
that have suffered, and now they're saying enough because we
know there is a place for the pets to go.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
When you think of an example of this happening, what's
the first one that comes to mind, what's one that's
really stood out to you?
Speaker 4 (07:42):
It's pretty graphic, so I'll sort of keep the details
as top line as I can, but there are a
couple that have really stood out for me. One was
a dog that came to us actually three leaps at
the time, and that was because in a previous abuse
(08:08):
situation within that relationship, the perpetrator had broken the.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Dog's leg and it needed to be amputated.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
When that dog came to us, it had other injuries
when the person had finally decided to actually leave, including
cigarette burns, a burnt tail, and various other wounds and
things that were inflicted by the abuser. The other case
(08:37):
that I think will stay with me for a very
long time is where a dog was chained to a
back of a car and dragged along the street, and
that dog sustained horrific injuries. But for those listening who
(08:57):
feel upset by that, I think it's really good to
know that that woman and her dog are out of
the situation and the dog has actually fully healed now.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
But that took a long time and a.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Lot of specialist care, all of which Refuge is able
to cover.
Speaker 6 (09:21):
What's he life like now here, as I think that's
the most important.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
The ones obviously they're digging for sentry.
Speaker 6 (09:28):
They're having a good time with this toy here, and
I think this is pretty representative of what a day
in the shelter is. Like the phenomenal stuff we have here.
They understand how important each unique yet is. So it's
all about making sure that each pet is cared for
in the way that they need to be.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
That's enrichment, rehabilitation. We take care of all veterinary costs.
Speaker 6 (09:52):
Food costs, travel across the country to make sure that
we can offer a national service. And I think just
the love and the attention and the enrichment and the training,
it's just second to none, and good truths, great, true, great,
great tree.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I can imagine people could say something like, you know, well,
if you can't look after your pet, then just drop
it off to the SPCA or something. But I suppose
my initial reaction when someone might say that is well,
you've obviously never loved or I had a family pet before,
because I can imagine that the relationship with said pet
would actually help someone after they leave a violent situation
(10:34):
in terms of their journey on their journey to healing
as well.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
And I would be I'd have a pretty strong view
on saying why should a person that loves their pit
kids for their pet have to surrender their pet because
of the actions of someone else who was using that
pit as a means of control.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I would also say.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
You know, the SPCA overwhelmed with the number of you know,
abandoned and neglected pets, So it's not as easy as
you think to just go and drop off your pet
to the SPCA.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And when you're a person that.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Has that great love and that great connection with your pet,
the last thing you want to do when you're in
a violent situation is have to lose something else in
your life that that is part of you and as
part of your family. So I would absolutely say, unless
(11:38):
you've walked in somebody's shoes who's going through this situation,
you shouldn't be telling them they should just.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Give up their pet.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
This was obviously born from there being a massive gap
in the market, you know, market quote unquote. What do
you think are there any other gaps that need to
be filled in xist in New Zealand's family violence support
system kind of like this one.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Yeah, I mean, this idea literally came about from a
colleague of mine having a conversation with someone from a
woman's refuge, and the woman's refuge person saying I wish
there was somewhere for pets to go. And that was
a light bulb moment for me because I wanted to
do something for animals.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
For a really long time. And it was a big gap.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Because we have the highest statistics in the reporting rates
of family violence in the OECD. Sixty three percent of
New Zealand households also have a family pet. So when
you put those two things together, you can see that
that is a massive issue and that's why this service
is needed, and that's why we're seeing.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
The need grow all the time.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I think that one of the things that we're advocating
for and we have been doing some work with to
Tour and she's been working with Ministry of Justice to
look at how we can bring that part of the
legislation more to the forefront so that victims of family
(13:14):
violence when they're looking at protection orders, can actually understand
that there are things they can do to ask for
protection for their pets. In Australia, they've recently changed the
laws to give much greater protection for pets as part
of family violence, and so i'd love to see that continue,
(13:35):
that work continue to evolve here in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
The other thing that.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
I really really advocate for and really want to see
is when police are attending family family home family violence incidents,
on the form that they complete, I would love to
see a section added into that around pets in the
whole home and whether they need help in getting out
(14:04):
and help for those pets or whether those pets have
in fact been the subject of abuse as part of
that as well. So I'm on the case on that.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Well, it is just such the whole idea of it
is so obvious, yet at the same time so unseen. Hey,
we don't see anything said about it. And the fact
that that Pet Refuge was kind of the first organization
to even come up with a solution of any kind.
And I suppose do you think it's so unseen because
(14:38):
the stories and abuse in these types of situations is
so ghastly.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Oh, I definitely think that's one of the reasons. I
think it's it's always been there. And I mean when
we started and we built our first shelter, we had
this plan that we thought we would stick to where
we would start operating at fifty percent of our total capacity,
(15:06):
you know, to make sure that we had enough money
to be able to do that, because we rely on
donations and all of those things, well, that just completely
went out the window. We were operating within the first
few weeks at one hundred percent capacity. It was like
a floodgate had opened with the various agencies, women's refuge,
(15:27):
police and even with victims themselves where there was finally
something they could do to keep their pets safe. And
so it literally was the catalyst for quite a lot
of people to actually have the courage to leave. And
I think it's it's been hidden for so long because
(15:47):
the stories and the cases that our team deal with
on a daily basis are horrific. They're sad, they're extremely violent,
and a lot of people victims are so embarrassed to
even tell somebody that their pet is also suffering their
abuse as part of what they're going through.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Thanks for joining us, Julie, Thank.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
You so much, great to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot enz The Front Page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine. Dicky is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer is jane Ye. Follow the front page
(16:39):
on the iHeart app or wherever you get your.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Podcasts, and join us next time for another look beyond
the headlines.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.