March 25, 2026 • 25 mins
The Government's confirmed it's going ahead with scrapping the current NCEA system.
Cabinet's agreed to an overhaul of secondary school qualifications - replacing NCEA with new subject-based assessments in Year 12 and Year 13.
Education Minister Erica Stanford says consultation showed strong support for structural change.
- NCEA will be replaced with a new system with two levels over Years 12 and 13
- There'll be subject-based assessment for Years 12 and 13
- Removing NCEA Level 1 and replacing it with curriculum-driven learning in Year 11
- A Foundational Award will be introduced in Year 11, recognising a students’ achievement in literacy and numeracy
- All Year 11 students will study English and Maths from 2028.
Today on The Front Page, PPTA president Chris Abercrombie is with us to dive into the detail, or lack thereof.
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Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's
confirmed it's going ahead with scrapping the current NCA system.
Cabinets agreed to an overhaul of secondary school qualifications, replacing
(00:26):
NCEA with new subject based.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Assessments in year twelve and year thirteen.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Education Minister Erica Stanford says consultations showed strong support for
structurals change.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So what are the changes?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So NCA will be replaced with a new system with
two levels over years twelve and thirteen. They'll be subject
based assessment four years twelve and thirteen, removing NCA Level
one and replacing it with curriculum driven learning in year eleven.
A Foundational Award will be introduced in year eleven, recognizing
a student's a chief in literacy and numeracy, and all
(01:03):
year eleven students will study English and maths from twenty
twenty eight. So today on the front page, PPTA President
Chris Abercrombie is with us to dive into the detail
or like thereof. So, Chris, what's your first reaction to
this announcement.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I suppose of an announcement.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, it's exactly it. It's really disappointing.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
There's been seven months in the government made an announcement
in August last year, and basically this announcement is their
announcement that we're going to have two levels of assessment,
that level one will be foundational and that there's going
to be a vocational pathway system. And we knew that
in August last year.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Well that's what I was thinking. We kind of already
knew that. Hey, so the devil will be in the
detail here.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Absolutely, and look, time's running out.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
The Minister wants this done basically, so she said the
year ninth they're going to be the first cohort through,
So that's twenty two months away when they start year eleven.
And you know we've also got our election period that
seems to shut down for a few months. So the
reality is we've got eighteen months in change before these
year ninees are going to be doing this new assessment system.
(02:13):
And that's an incredibly tight time frame to do an
education system from effectively scratch. We take the vocational pathways,
it doesn't exist as of right now, none of that exists.
Is incredibly optimistic and going to put so much pressure
on the system.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
National does seem to be making a lot of changes
in education. It feels like there's a new story every
month or so about Oh, we're changing this, we're changing that,
We've spoken to parents, we've spoken to teachers, etc. What
kind of pressure does this put on teachers in schools
and is it all getting a bit complicated?
Speaker 5 (02:49):
Oh, a huge amount of pressure. So i' vis at
schools quite reguarly. It's one of the awesome parts of
this role. And I was literally up in Aukland this week,
and I've been in Otago in South London the weeks before,
and the number one thing PET teachers are saying to
me is that we're sick of this political ping pong.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
We're sick of this change.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
We want stability for us, for our students, for our parents,
for our community, and this change on change on change
is creating so much stress and uncertainty, you know, and
even this might be the best change in the world,
but if you're doing fifteen of them all at the
same time, you know things are going to fall through
(03:26):
the cracks.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, because it's pretty widely thought that there are problems
with NCA, the moment. Hey, the Minister has said that
NCAA has become increasingly fragmented, difficult to understand, too easy
to gain.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Would you agree with all that.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I think we all understood there were some issues with NCAA,
and that's why we were actually already on an agreed
change package under the previous government. And you know, there
was some issues around the flexibility that needed to be
tightened up, some coherence issues, that is, as the Minister said, taking.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Bits from different parts.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
But I feel like we're really throwing the baby out
with the bath water. And I can give a get
an example from my own teaching. So at times I've
created a humanities course which borrows from geography, from history,
from social studies to create a course to meet the
needs of my students. Under this proposed system of siloed subjects,
I won't be able to do that.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
And so you know that flexibility.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
While I absolutely agree i'd gone too far in some cases,
this feels again like I swing back the other way
to like you must sit in a class and learn
the kings and queens of England in order to pass
the exam, And it just feels like we're going back
to the nineteen fifties instead of focusing on the future.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
The Great Gatsby is going to get popular again, isn't
it exactly?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
And we're going to be talking about that green light
at the end of the dock.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Well, the Minister talked a lot in her speech today
about her announcement about deep learning. Does that suggest that
we haven't been engaging in deep and rich learning for
the past twenty odd years.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
And of course not. I mean, that's a ridiculous thing
to say that we haven't been. I mean, so if
you think about NCAA, you think we're about twenty years
of it. So people who have done NCAA are in
their late thirties forties now, So the adoptors, their nurses,
their politicians, their reporters, that everyone in our society from
every level has done NCAA, and to suggest that they
(05:20):
didn't engage in deep learning or didn't show their understanding
or knowledge is really doing a disservice to the last
twenty years plus years of teaching and learning and actually
to a vast majority of the people working in in
our society at the moment.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
What is a deep and rich understanding of a subject?
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Well, that's a great question. That is a great question.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
I like to think I always taught a deep and
rich understanding on my subjects when I taught my students, because.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
That's how you learn, and that's how you learn.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
But what seems to be at the moment from this government,
and we've seen some of the drafts of the knowledge
rich curriculum, as the mister likes to call it, I
call it content specific, is actually that's impossible to do
because you.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Cover so much information.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
You know, one of the standards, one of the parts
of the new curriculum seems to suggest that we're going
to teach our junior students.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
I think it was year six, two.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
Thousand years of Chinese history and a matter of weeks.
And I don't know how deep and meaningful you can
get in two thousand years of history and a matter
of weeks. And so there seems to be this real
disconnect between the different parts of what's happening.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
We've got curriculum development.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
Going over here, we've got assessment development going over here.
They don't seem to be talking to each other. So,
you know, what are we actually going to assess if
we don't have a curriculum to assess yet?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, there has been widespread consultation across the country about this,
and they have said, look, we've spoken to teachers, principles, etc.
But do you think that they are considering the I
guess macro impact on schools. I'm thinking the logistics of
getting all of this off of the ground, explaining it
to the kids, explaining it to the parents, getting the
(07:00):
different resources involved.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
You know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Absolutely, And that's where my focus really is.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
I'm getting sick of these philosophical discussions about assessment and announcements,
about announcements. I want the nuts and bolts. I want
to know what I'm going to be teaching in the
next year. I want to know what I'm going to
be assessing. I want to know what a past grade is.
I want to know am I going to giving their
kid an A grade or a B grade or a
C grade. I want to know these things. I want
(07:29):
to know if science is going to be compulsory. I
want to know if we're going to have to build
more science lamps, if we got all of the hire
more science teachers. These real nuts and bolts questions that
impact the day to day of teachers, of students of
family are missing completely from this announcement, and they've had
seven months to do this, So there's been seven months
(07:51):
to come up with an announcement that was basically the
same announcement, and it's incredibly frustrating.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
And I'm already.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Fielding messages from teachers are going, well, was the point
of that announcement?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
You know?
Speaker 5 (08:01):
It hasn't given me any more information to share with
my families, my students, in my colleagues, and so.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
It's just it's just really really frustrating.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
If I could say harsher words, I would, because that's
how at the moment to me, Frank, we're just we're
a bit pissed off about the whole thing, to be honest,
and it's just because it's not helpful.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
If we want a long lasting, world.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Class education system, all parts of it need to work together.
Like I had no idea about the second tranch information
until eight o'clock this morning. And I lead an organization
that represents twenty two thousand secondary teachers and principles.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
The people who are going to be doing.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
The may and I didn't know about that until eight
o'clock this morning, and it's really frustrated.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
I was at a breakfast. Recently, I was chatting with
some young people and it impressed upon me this one comment.
A young man and yet thirteen said to me. He
said to me, minister, it is much harder to fail
in Cea than it is to pass, And that really
struck a chord with me. We've heard directly from the
(09:16):
community as well. More than ten thousand New Zealanders, including
teachers and parents and business people and students themselves, have
all had their say and they told us very clearly
the system needs a structural change, and that is exactly
what we are delivering. We're building a new system that
is clearer, more consistent across schools, and more internationally comparable.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well, we're hearing that English and maths will be studied
in year eleven from twenty twenty eight, so that'll be
made compulsory. And you mentioned there's science as well. Should
science be compolsed thory in year eleven.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
I think there's a decision for the DISCORDI has been
made obviously, but I don't really have.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
An opinion on about if science should be composed.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
But what I do know if it is going to
be compulsory, we need to make that decision soon.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
And we need to have the resources to do it.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
We know that schools are already struggling to get science teachers,
you know, so there's no point in making science compulsory.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Iff Actually there's no one to teach it.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
There's no point of making speakers are expensive.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Exactly, exactly, and this thing we already know. Schools have
shortages of labs. I went to a school not long ago.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
They had basically one and a half science labs, you know,
like and it's like, well, all of a sudden, we're
going to make every year eleven do science.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Then where are they going to do it?
Speaker 5 (10:34):
And these are again you thought about that nuts and
bolts at that that macro level of actually, how is
this going to look feel sound like in the classroom
with these young people who you know, deserve the absolute best,
And that's where we come from, that's where teachers come from.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
Our young people deserve the best.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
And at the moment, this government doesn't seem to be
really delivering that. It's just a bunch of sound bites
that that don't really move the conversation forward.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
But the minister placed a lot of emphasis on exams
that under NCA, lots of students were able to even
avoid setting exams. Why are exams so important in terms
of setting students up for success in the world?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Look at other exams are important.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
I'm a history teacher, might my students do exams, and
I think it's important yet that you do do exams,
But I also don't think it's the b or an
end or of your life. I'm forty three now, and
I think it was probably twenty plus years ago the
last time I did an exam. And I think people listening,
you know, watching, like when was the last time you
actually had to sit down in a room for three
(11:38):
hours to do an exam?
Speaker 4 (11:40):
The minister didn't do an exam to get into Parliament.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
And I sort of feel like, you know, if it's
sort of good for the ghost, good for the gander
kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And I'm not saying we shouldn't do exams.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
I think there's some learning that can be assessed really
well with an exam technique, but not all learning should
be assessed by exams, and it shouldn't be that the
b or an end or of assessment. You can assess
and knowledge through many different ways, and that's understanding our students.
We know that our students are having more specific learning needs,
particularly in eurodiverse students. We know our special assessment conditions
(12:14):
are skyrocketing. So that's things like a read writer. That's
things like a single room so you're not in a group.
And that was already putting pressure on schools to find
people to run that and rooms to host them. And
now we're like everyone's going to be doing exams every
year all the time.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
It just feels really, you.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Know, there's only so many times you weigh the peg
before you realize it's not getting bigger, you know, like,
so what's the real point of it? And that's where
we come back with a lot of this stuff. Is
it going to make the teaching and learning better? Is
it going to make the outcomes better? And if the
answers know, then why are we doing it?
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
And the fact of the matter is some kids are
just really good at cramming all of the history knowledge
three hours before and the night before and a really
good and exams situations.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
To be frank, there was me. I loved exams.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Measure the workout like a couple of days before he
had read all my notes and I'm so old. We
used to have a cassette tape that I would play
that had my some of the history stuff on it.
So that was and I did well in exams, but
I also know some of my the people I went
to school with, and some of the students I taught didn't.
Exams are really hard and stressful, and actually I know
(13:25):
some brilliant people who would do miserably at exams.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
And so we just got to it's got to be
horses for courses basically.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And this blanket approach I supposed to learning, it does
all seem about old school. Do you English, do your maths,
do your science? Perhaps, But with the growing awareness of
neurodiversity and different ways of learning in schools and how
kids are so different from one another, how will this
return to I suppose the old age of teaching impact
(13:56):
neurodivergent students, for instance, it's.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
A real sence.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
So there's obviously those students that say with specific learning
needs on neurodiverse or even dles here all of these
other things that we understand so much better today than
we did ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, and support them
to be the best that they can be. But there's
also what I'm really concerned about is this bland saneness
creeping across our system?
Speaker 4 (14:20):
That you know that the.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
School and Takapoona is going to be exactly the same
as the school in Twice all and it's like, well,
actually they're different schools with different communities. Now, should we
have the same high expectations, absolutely, but what the priorities
are might be different.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
I've taught in many different schools on it.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
I taught in Central Otago and viviculture, winemaking was a
big part of our community, so that was in our school.
I taught on the west coast of the South Island.
Mining was a big part and that was in our school.
And this really like one size standardization is going to,
you know, take away those things that make the someone's
local school.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
They're awesome local school.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
And we know parents really value their local school and
their local teachers. And so I'm really worried this bland
saneness is going to creep across our system.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And in terms of that same and I mean, what
happens to the kids who perhaps don't work well in
school environments, are going to go down a vocational kind
of training route anyway and decide to leave before year eleven?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
What good is it to them exactly?
Speaker 5 (15:25):
And you mentioned the vocational system, and I think this
is a great idea. I really get behind this idea
because we've never really had a national vocational system, and
I think it's important, you know, because there has to
be options for our young people.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Not everyone's going to become adopted. Not everyone's going to
become a lawyer, and to be frank, we don't want
everyone to do that. You know.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
We need all parts of our society to be functioning
at their best. And I think during recent events, you know,
think of COVID, Actually the ones that really made our
society work, you know, wasn't wasn't the lawyers, wasn't the bankers,
wasn't the financial analysts.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
It was the tradees, it was the truck drivers, it
was those groups.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
And so those vocational pathways are absolutely vital. But as
of right now, those industry standards boards a brand new
is my understanding. They haven't got their funding yet, they
haven't been stood up to create the creculunt And again
it's about access. So I mentioned twice on a tacopana.
I want the student in twice all to be able
(16:24):
to do automotive about to do electrical engineering, about to
do hospitality, about to do hair dressing as much as
the student and tacaprener should be able to do that.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
And that's a big concern about staffing.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
Again, there's nuts and bolts classrooms, the ability you know
you're going to be working with the community, you're going
to be working with outside providers, all of that details missing,
and it's just it feels like we're just really just
all on tenderhooks waiting for the next bit.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Does any curriculum going forward have to factor in the
likes of AI and the way that that's perhaps changing
how students retain information and even absolutely so.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
One of the awesome parts of this role I have
now is I get to meet other people from all
around the world and talk about education. You may figure
it out a bit of an education neared and so
I was recently at an international summer and AI was
a big topic of conversation and about how that could work.
And we're talking about the Estonian government supplying twenty thousand
licenses to they're seeing your students, about the news of
(17:24):
an educational AI and training five thousand teachers in it.
We're talking about other jurisdiction Singapore and how they're using AI.
But at the heart of it, at the heart of it,
and everyone agreed that teaching is a human relationship between
student and teacher. So AI needs to support that relationship.
And if it doesn't doesn't support that relationship, doesn't make
(17:44):
it stronger, then there's no point in using it. But
absolutely AI in the terms of how to assess say
I'm a history teacher, I'd be really wary about setting
an essay for the students to work on. You know,
it's AI is an amazing tool. It'll be interesting to
see how it plays out. And I'll just give a story.
So talking about Estonia, and I was very lucky to
(18:07):
visit there, and we visited at school and one of
these senior students had done a survey of the class
or their school to see how they use AI, and
one of the things was forty seven percent said plagiarism.
And I was like, oh, hang on, you do you
mean checking for plagiarism like checking your work or do.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
You mean copying and pasting? And she said, I know,
copying and pasting.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
So you know, we know your young people are doing that,
and you know from here in New Zealand, all the
way to Estonia, and so any system I don't think
you're ever going to make a full proof, but any
system needs to be able to show how AI can
support learning and not take away from it.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
We've lost over the last twenty years is deep understanding
of curriculum subjects. Every other country in the world has that.
Body followed us on our approach of standards based assessment,
and what we saw was very superficial learning across different
subjects that were different in every school that you go to.
(19:14):
We will now have rich deep learning and subject areas
and many subject areas. In fact, I sat down with
the curriculum writers. There's about eighty odd groups of them
all writing at the moment, so there'll be plenty of
subjects available.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
What would you like to see when she comes out
in the second announcement?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
What do you reckon?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
What would you suggest would be the best way to
explain this to people?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
What do you want to see? What's the first thing
you're looking out for.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Well, the first thing we're going to be looking out
for is how's the assessment going to work. Is it
going to be ABCD, is it going to be you
have to pass by subjects? A year twelve to get
your certificate? Is it going to be you have to
get fifty one percent? You know, I did school birth
around forty six percent was a pass to school grosery,
you know, And so all of these real nuts and
(20:03):
bolts questions. Are you going to be able to chop
and change? Can you do a wee bit of history,
a wee bit of geography, a wee bit of science,
or do you have to do grow I'm only doing history,
I'm only doing physics, I'm only doing English. How's university
entrance going brow? What's our goals here? And that detail
is what we've really see. That's what teachers need to see,
(20:24):
you know, and that's what students need to see because
they say it's going to be twenty two months, you know,
before our year nine are going to be doing this,
and there's no time at all in an education sense.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Well, speaking of those year nines, what kind of reassurances
can the ministry give to those guinea pigs students? I
suppose we can call the year nines today, who are
meant to be the first ones going through this, that
their education won't suffer because we're going to remember, these
are COVID kids as well.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Absolutely, and I think too we know that like you
mentioned COVID, and we know that it hit an impact
in literacy and numeracy, and we know.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Teach been working really hard to improve that.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Again, it's something I talk to principals and schools quite
regularly about and they're working their guts out to get
those kids up, their skills up. And for my assurance,
and I want the Minister to give this assurance, is
that teachers and schools and the ministery and the government
will work their absolute guts out to get the best
outcome for those young people.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Because I already know teachers.
Speaker 5 (21:21):
And schools are doing it, and I expect the same
from the minister and the ministry about it to match
the level of effort that schools and principles and teachers
are put in in to support these young people.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And just lastly, what is the likelihood do you think,
because there's no legislation required for this, right, so what's
the likelihood that there's a change of government they come in,
this will all be scrapped, It will be changed immediately.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Yet again, so this is something that teachers are really
worried about.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
And I mentioned that that ping pong that swing.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
We can't sustain more significant changes a sector, and that
just make that really clear, and our children can't, our
young people can't sustain any more major changes.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
But there is nothing stopping it.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
There's actually this government has demonstrated what you should do
in the first one hundred days is take a flame
throughout all the other decisions of the previous government.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
And so I really hope if there is.
Speaker 5 (22:11):
A change of government that they are responsible enough to
think about what's going well. And some of these changes
are good, as I say, the vocational pathways, the concept
is good, and what what actually needs to change, because
some things will need to change. I say, I'm a
social science teacher's history social studies. I think the new
social science curriculum is unworkable as the draft I've seen,
(22:36):
and I would love that to change. And so it's
about looking at what's working, what's not, Listening to the sector,
listening to the experts, trusting each other because that trust
is at a low level at the moment, and just
really focusing again what is best for the learning outcomes
of our young people and focusing on that.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And by the way, Chris, just one thing, lastly, are
you guys having I mean, have you heard of any
schools all talking about this fuel crisis and where the
kids are going to have to learn from home? And
staff for those conversations starting absolutely.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Actually, I was an Auckland visiting school's Tuesday and Wednesday
this week and that was one of the topics of
the conversation that came up.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Now, I want to make this very clear. We're not advocating.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Working from home for learning from home, but what we
are advocating for is having a plan. You know, what steps,
at what point is it going to be triggered. We
haven't had that information yet, you know, and we know that.
I was reading some articles today, you know, school trips,
school buses, you know, people travel, particularly in some of
(23:37):
our other areas.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Travel significant distances to get the school.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
I spoke to a teacher in Auckland who's driving an
hour each way to get the school. I've had emails
from relievers saying, well, actually, I'm not going to go
to that school a bit further away because it costs
me more.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
I'll go to the closest school. And that means that
school's missing out.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
And so we're absolutely getting feedback from teachers saying we're
really worried about this. What's the plan, what's going to happen?
And that's all we're asking the government and the ministry for.
We're not saying, hey, we need to go out home learning.
We're saying, hey, what's the plan for this? What's the
plan if it gets worse? What's the plan if we
get to emergency level where our levels of petrol and fuel?
(24:16):
And that's not been clear. And again we need that
nuts and bolts detail. That's how schools run. They don't
run on hope and philosophies. They run on nuts and bolts,
hard work of teachers, principles.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
And the students and their community.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
And so yeah, that's what we're really asking the government
for is just a plan.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Thanks for joining us, Chris.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Nora is at all. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine Dickie is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Is Jane Ye.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Follow the Front page on the iheartapp or wherever you
get your podcasts, and join us next time
Speaker 3 (25:07):
For another look beyond the headlines.
Kiota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's
confirmed it's going ahead with scrapping the current NCA system.
Cabinets agreed to an overhaul of secondary school qualifications, replacing
(00:26):
NCEA with new subject based.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Assessments in year twelve and year thirteen.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Education Minister Erica Stanford says consultations showed strong support for
structurals change.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So what are the changes?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So NCA will be replaced with a new system with
two levels over years twelve and thirteen. They'll be subject
based assessment four years twelve and thirteen, removing NCA Level
one and replacing it with curriculum driven learning in year eleven.
A Foundational Award will be introduced in year eleven, recognizing
a student's a chief in literacy and numeracy, and all
(01:03):
year eleven students will study English and maths from twenty
twenty eight. So today on the front page, PPTA President
Chris Abercrombie is with us to dive into the detail
or like thereof. So, Chris, what's your first reaction to
this announcement.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I suppose of an announcement.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, it's exactly it. It's really disappointing.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
There's been seven months in the government made an announcement
in August last year, and basically this announcement is their
announcement that we're going to have two levels of assessment,
that level one will be foundational and that there's going
to be a vocational pathway system. And we knew that
in August last year.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Well that's what I was thinking. We kind of already
knew that. Hey, so the devil will be in the
detail here.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Absolutely, and look, time's running out.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
The Minister wants this done basically, so she said the
year ninth they're going to be the first cohort through,
So that's twenty two months away when they start year eleven.
And you know we've also got our election period that
seems to shut down for a few months. So the
reality is we've got eighteen months in change before these
year ninees are going to be doing this new assessment system.
(02:13):
And that's an incredibly tight time frame to do an
education system from effectively scratch. We take the vocational pathways,
it doesn't exist as of right now, none of that exists.
Is incredibly optimistic and going to put so much pressure
on the system.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
National does seem to be making a lot of changes
in education. It feels like there's a new story every
month or so about Oh, we're changing this, we're changing that,
We've spoken to parents, we've spoken to teachers, etc. What
kind of pressure does this put on teachers in schools
and is it all getting a bit complicated?
Speaker 5 (02:49):
Oh, a huge amount of pressure. So i' vis at
schools quite reguarly. It's one of the awesome parts of
this role. And I was literally up in Aukland this week,
and I've been in Otago in South London the weeks before,
and the number one thing PET teachers are saying to
me is that we're sick of this political ping pong.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
We're sick of this change.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
We want stability for us, for our students, for our parents,
for our community, and this change on change on change
is creating so much stress and uncertainty, you know, and
even this might be the best change in the world,
but if you're doing fifteen of them all at the
same time, you know things are going to fall through
(03:26):
the cracks.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, because it's pretty widely thought that there are problems
with NCA, the moment. Hey, the Minister has said that
NCAA has become increasingly fragmented, difficult to understand, too easy
to gain.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Would you agree with all that.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I think we all understood there were some issues with NCAA,
and that's why we were actually already on an agreed
change package under the previous government. And you know, there
was some issues around the flexibility that needed to be
tightened up, some coherence issues, that is, as the Minister said, taking.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Bits from different parts.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
But I feel like we're really throwing the baby out
with the bath water. And I can give a get
an example from my own teaching. So at times I've
created a humanities course which borrows from geography, from history,
from social studies to create a course to meet the
needs of my students. Under this proposed system of siloed subjects,
I won't be able to do that.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
And so you know that flexibility.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
While I absolutely agree i'd gone too far in some cases,
this feels again like I swing back the other way
to like you must sit in a class and learn
the kings and queens of England in order to pass
the exam, And it just feels like we're going back
to the nineteen fifties instead of focusing on the future.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
The Great Gatsby is going to get popular again, isn't
it exactly?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
And we're going to be talking about that green light
at the end of the dock.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Well, the Minister talked a lot in her speech today
about her announcement about deep learning. Does that suggest that
we haven't been engaging in deep and rich learning for
the past twenty odd years.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
And of course not. I mean, that's a ridiculous thing
to say that we haven't been. I mean, so if
you think about NCAA, you think we're about twenty years
of it. So people who have done NCAA are in
their late thirties forties now, So the adoptors, their nurses,
their politicians, their reporters, that everyone in our society from
every level has done NCAA, and to suggest that they
(05:20):
didn't engage in deep learning or didn't show their understanding
or knowledge is really doing a disservice to the last
twenty years plus years of teaching and learning and actually
to a vast majority of the people working in in
our society at the moment.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
What is a deep and rich understanding of a subject?
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Well, that's a great question. That is a great question.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
I like to think I always taught a deep and
rich understanding on my subjects when I taught my students, because.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
That's how you learn, and that's how you learn.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
But what seems to be at the moment from this government,
and we've seen some of the drafts of the knowledge
rich curriculum, as the mister likes to call it, I
call it content specific, is actually that's impossible to do
because you.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Cover so much information.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
You know, one of the standards, one of the parts
of the new curriculum seems to suggest that we're going
to teach our junior students.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
I think it was year six, two.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
Thousand years of Chinese history and a matter of weeks.
And I don't know how deep and meaningful you can
get in two thousand years of history and a matter
of weeks. And so there seems to be this real
disconnect between the different parts of what's happening.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
We've got curriculum development.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
Going over here, we've got assessment development going over here.
They don't seem to be talking to each other. So,
you know, what are we actually going to assess if
we don't have a curriculum to assess yet?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, there has been widespread consultation across the country about this,
and they have said, look, we've spoken to teachers, principles, etc.
But do you think that they are considering the I
guess macro impact on schools. I'm thinking the logistics of
getting all of this off of the ground, explaining it
to the kids, explaining it to the parents, getting the
(07:00):
different resources involved.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
You know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Absolutely, And that's where my focus really is.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
I'm getting sick of these philosophical discussions about assessment and announcements,
about announcements. I want the nuts and bolts. I want
to know what I'm going to be teaching in the
next year. I want to know what I'm going to
be assessing. I want to know what a past grade is.
I want to know am I going to giving their
kid an A grade or a B grade or a
C grade. I want to know these things. I want
(07:29):
to know if science is going to be compulsory. I
want to know if we're going to have to build
more science lamps, if we got all of the hire
more science teachers. These real nuts and bolts questions that
impact the day to day of teachers, of students of
family are missing completely from this announcement, and they've had
seven months to do this, So there's been seven months
(07:51):
to come up with an announcement that was basically the
same announcement, and it's incredibly frustrating.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
And I'm already.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Fielding messages from teachers are going, well, was the point
of that announcement?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
You know?
Speaker 5 (08:01):
It hasn't given me any more information to share with
my families, my students, in my colleagues, and so.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
It's just it's just really really frustrating.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
If I could say harsher words, I would, because that's
how at the moment to me, Frank, we're just we're
a bit pissed off about the whole thing, to be honest,
and it's just because it's not helpful.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
If we want a long lasting, world.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Class education system, all parts of it need to work together.
Like I had no idea about the second tranch information
until eight o'clock this morning. And I lead an organization
that represents twenty two thousand secondary teachers and principles.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
The people who are going to be doing.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
The may and I didn't know about that until eight
o'clock this morning, and it's really frustrated.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
I was at a breakfast. Recently, I was chatting with
some young people and it impressed upon me this one comment.
A young man and yet thirteen said to me. He
said to me, minister, it is much harder to fail
in Cea than it is to pass, And that really
struck a chord with me. We've heard directly from the
(09:16):
community as well. More than ten thousand New Zealanders, including
teachers and parents and business people and students themselves, have
all had their say and they told us very clearly
the system needs a structural change, and that is exactly
what we are delivering. We're building a new system that
is clearer, more consistent across schools, and more internationally comparable.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well, we're hearing that English and maths will be studied
in year eleven from twenty twenty eight, so that'll be
made compulsory. And you mentioned there's science as well. Should
science be compolsed thory in year eleven.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
I think there's a decision for the DISCORDI has been
made obviously, but I don't really have.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
An opinion on about if science should be composed.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
But what I do know if it is going to
be compulsory, we need to make that decision soon.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
And we need to have the resources to do it.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
We know that schools are already struggling to get science teachers,
you know, so there's no point in making science compulsory.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Iff Actually there's no one to teach it.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
There's no point of making speakers are expensive.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Exactly, exactly, and this thing we already know. Schools have
shortages of labs. I went to a school not long ago.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
They had basically one and a half science labs, you know,
like and it's like, well, all of a sudden, we're
going to make every year eleven do science.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Then where are they going to do it?
Speaker 5 (10:34):
And these are again you thought about that nuts and
bolts at that that macro level of actually, how is
this going to look feel sound like in the classroom
with these young people who you know, deserve the absolute best,
And that's where we come from, that's where teachers come from.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
Our young people deserve the best.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
And at the moment, this government doesn't seem to be
really delivering that. It's just a bunch of sound bites
that that don't really move the conversation forward.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
But the minister placed a lot of emphasis on exams
that under NCA, lots of students were able to even
avoid setting exams. Why are exams so important in terms
of setting students up for success in the world?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Look at other exams are important.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
I'm a history teacher, might my students do exams, and
I think it's important yet that you do do exams,
But I also don't think it's the b or an
end or of your life. I'm forty three now, and
I think it was probably twenty plus years ago the
last time I did an exam. And I think people listening,
you know, watching, like when was the last time you
actually had to sit down in a room for three
(11:38):
hours to do an exam?
Speaker 4 (11:40):
The minister didn't do an exam to get into Parliament.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
And I sort of feel like, you know, if it's
sort of good for the ghost, good for the gander
kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And I'm not saying we shouldn't do exams.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
I think there's some learning that can be assessed really
well with an exam technique, but not all learning should
be assessed by exams, and it shouldn't be that the
b or an end or of assessment. You can assess
and knowledge through many different ways, and that's understanding our students.
We know that our students are having more specific learning needs,
particularly in eurodiverse students. We know our special assessment conditions
(12:14):
are skyrocketing. So that's things like a read writer. That's
things like a single room so you're not in a group.
And that was already putting pressure on schools to find
people to run that and rooms to host them. And
now we're like everyone's going to be doing exams every
year all the time.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
It just feels really, you.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Know, there's only so many times you weigh the peg
before you realize it's not getting bigger, you know, like,
so what's the real point of it? And that's where
we come back with a lot of this stuff. Is
it going to make the teaching and learning better? Is
it going to make the outcomes better? And if the
answers know, then why are we doing it?
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
And the fact of the matter is some kids are
just really good at cramming all of the history knowledge
three hours before and the night before and a really
good and exams situations.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
To be frank, there was me. I loved exams.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Measure the workout like a couple of days before he
had read all my notes and I'm so old. We
used to have a cassette tape that I would play
that had my some of the history stuff on it.
So that was and I did well in exams, but
I also know some of my the people I went
to school with, and some of the students I taught didn't.
Exams are really hard and stressful, and actually I know
(13:25):
some brilliant people who would do miserably at exams.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
And so we just got to it's got to be
horses for courses basically.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And this blanket approach I supposed to learning, it does
all seem about old school. Do you English, do your maths,
do your science? Perhaps, But with the growing awareness of
neurodiversity and different ways of learning in schools and how
kids are so different from one another, how will this
return to I suppose the old age of teaching impact
(13:56):
neurodivergent students, for instance, it's.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
A real sence.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
So there's obviously those students that say with specific learning
needs on neurodiverse or even dles here all of these
other things that we understand so much better today than
we did ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, and support them
to be the best that they can be. But there's
also what I'm really concerned about is this bland saneness
creeping across our system?
Speaker 4 (14:20):
That you know that the.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
School and Takapoona is going to be exactly the same
as the school in Twice all and it's like, well,
actually they're different schools with different communities. Now, should we
have the same high expectations, absolutely, but what the priorities
are might be different.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
I've taught in many different schools on it.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
I taught in Central Otago and viviculture, winemaking was a
big part of our community, so that was in our school.
I taught on the west coast of the South Island.
Mining was a big part and that was in our school.
And this really like one size standardization is going to,
you know, take away those things that make the someone's
local school.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
They're awesome local school.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
And we know parents really value their local school and
their local teachers. And so I'm really worried this bland
saneness is going to creep across our system.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And in terms of that same and I mean, what
happens to the kids who perhaps don't work well in
school environments, are going to go down a vocational kind
of training route anyway and decide to leave before year eleven?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
What good is it to them exactly?
Speaker 5 (15:25):
And you mentioned the vocational system, and I think this
is a great idea. I really get behind this idea
because we've never really had a national vocational system, and
I think it's important, you know, because there has to
be options for our young people.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Not everyone's going to become adopted. Not everyone's going to
become a lawyer, and to be frank, we don't want
everyone to do that. You know.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
We need all parts of our society to be functioning
at their best. And I think during recent events, you know,
think of COVID, Actually the ones that really made our
society work, you know, wasn't wasn't the lawyers, wasn't the bankers,
wasn't the financial analysts.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
It was the tradees, it was the truck drivers, it
was those groups.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
And so those vocational pathways are absolutely vital. But as
of right now, those industry standards boards a brand new
is my understanding. They haven't got their funding yet, they
haven't been stood up to create the creculunt And again
it's about access. So I mentioned twice on a tacopana.
I want the student in twice all to be able
(16:24):
to do automotive about to do electrical engineering, about to
do hospitality, about to do hair dressing as much as
the student and tacaprener should be able to do that.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
And that's a big concern about staffing.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
Again, there's nuts and bolts classrooms, the ability you know
you're going to be working with the community, you're going
to be working with outside providers, all of that details missing,
and it's just it feels like we're just really just
all on tenderhooks waiting for the next bit.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Does any curriculum going forward have to factor in the
likes of AI and the way that that's perhaps changing
how students retain information and even absolutely so.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
One of the awesome parts of this role I have
now is I get to meet other people from all
around the world and talk about education. You may figure
it out a bit of an education neared and so
I was recently at an international summer and AI was
a big topic of conversation and about how that could work.
And we're talking about the Estonian government supplying twenty thousand
licenses to they're seeing your students, about the news of
(17:24):
an educational AI and training five thousand teachers in it.
We're talking about other jurisdiction Singapore and how they're using AI.
But at the heart of it, at the heart of it,
and everyone agreed that teaching is a human relationship between
student and teacher. So AI needs to support that relationship.
And if it doesn't doesn't support that relationship, doesn't make
(17:44):
it stronger, then there's no point in using it. But
absolutely AI in the terms of how to assess say
I'm a history teacher, I'd be really wary about setting
an essay for the students to work on. You know,
it's AI is an amazing tool. It'll be interesting to
see how it plays out. And I'll just give a story.
So talking about Estonia, and I was very lucky to
(18:07):
visit there, and we visited at school and one of
these senior students had done a survey of the class
or their school to see how they use AI, and
one of the things was forty seven percent said plagiarism.
And I was like, oh, hang on, you do you
mean checking for plagiarism like checking your work or do.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
You mean copying and pasting? And she said, I know,
copying and pasting.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
So you know, we know your young people are doing that,
and you know from here in New Zealand, all the
way to Estonia, and so any system I don't think
you're ever going to make a full proof, but any
system needs to be able to show how AI can
support learning and not take away from it.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
We've lost over the last twenty years is deep understanding
of curriculum subjects. Every other country in the world has that.
Body followed us on our approach of standards based assessment,
and what we saw was very superficial learning across different
subjects that were different in every school that you go to.
(19:14):
We will now have rich deep learning and subject areas
and many subject areas. In fact, I sat down with
the curriculum writers. There's about eighty odd groups of them
all writing at the moment, so there'll be plenty of
subjects available.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
What would you like to see when she comes out
in the second announcement?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
What do you reckon?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
What would you suggest would be the best way to
explain this to people?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
What do you want to see? What's the first thing
you're looking out for.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Well, the first thing we're going to be looking out
for is how's the assessment going to work. Is it
going to be ABCD, is it going to be you
have to pass by subjects? A year twelve to get
your certificate? Is it going to be you have to
get fifty one percent? You know, I did school birth
around forty six percent was a pass to school grosery,
you know, And so all of these real nuts and
(20:03):
bolts questions. Are you going to be able to chop
and change? Can you do a wee bit of history,
a wee bit of geography, a wee bit of science,
or do you have to do grow I'm only doing history,
I'm only doing physics, I'm only doing English. How's university
entrance going brow? What's our goals here? And that detail
is what we've really see. That's what teachers need to see,
(20:24):
you know, and that's what students need to see because
they say it's going to be twenty two months, you know,
before our year nine are going to be doing this,
and there's no time at all in an education sense.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Well, speaking of those year nines, what kind of reassurances
can the ministry give to those guinea pigs students? I
suppose we can call the year nines today, who are
meant to be the first ones going through this, that
their education won't suffer because we're going to remember, these
are COVID kids as well.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Absolutely, and I think too we know that like you
mentioned COVID, and we know that it hit an impact
in literacy and numeracy, and we know.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Teach been working really hard to improve that.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Again, it's something I talk to principals and schools quite
regularly about and they're working their guts out to get
those kids up, their skills up. And for my assurance,
and I want the Minister to give this assurance, is
that teachers and schools and the ministery and the government
will work their absolute guts out to get the best
outcome for those young people.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Because I already know teachers.
Speaker 5 (21:21):
And schools are doing it, and I expect the same
from the minister and the ministry about it to match
the level of effort that schools and principles and teachers
are put in in to support these young people.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And just lastly, what is the likelihood do you think,
because there's no legislation required for this, right, so what's
the likelihood that there's a change of government they come in,
this will all be scrapped, It will be changed immediately.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Yet again, so this is something that teachers are really
worried about.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
And I mentioned that that ping pong that swing.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
We can't sustain more significant changes a sector, and that
just make that really clear, and our children can't, our
young people can't sustain any more major changes.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
But there is nothing stopping it.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
There's actually this government has demonstrated what you should do
in the first one hundred days is take a flame
throughout all the other decisions of the previous government.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
And so I really hope if there is.
Speaker 5 (22:11):
A change of government that they are responsible enough to
think about what's going well. And some of these changes
are good, as I say, the vocational pathways, the concept
is good, and what what actually needs to change, because
some things will need to change. I say, I'm a
social science teacher's history social studies. I think the new
social science curriculum is unworkable as the draft I've seen,
(22:36):
and I would love that to change. And so it's
about looking at what's working, what's not, Listening to the sector,
listening to the experts, trusting each other because that trust
is at a low level at the moment, and just
really focusing again what is best for the learning outcomes
of our young people and focusing on that.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And by the way, Chris, just one thing, lastly, are
you guys having I mean, have you heard of any
schools all talking about this fuel crisis and where the
kids are going to have to learn from home? And
staff for those conversations starting absolutely.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Actually, I was an Auckland visiting school's Tuesday and Wednesday
this week and that was one of the topics of
the conversation that came up.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Now, I want to make this very clear. We're not advocating.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Working from home for learning from home, but what we
are advocating for is having a plan. You know, what steps,
at what point is it going to be triggered. We
haven't had that information yet, you know, and we know that.
I was reading some articles today, you know, school trips,
school buses, you know, people travel, particularly in some of
(23:37):
our other areas.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Travel significant distances to get the school.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
I spoke to a teacher in Auckland who's driving an
hour each way to get the school. I've had emails
from relievers saying, well, actually, I'm not going to go
to that school a bit further away because it costs
me more.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
I'll go to the closest school. And that means that
school's missing out.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
And so we're absolutely getting feedback from teachers saying we're
really worried about this. What's the plan, what's going to happen?
And that's all we're asking the government and the ministry for.
We're not saying, hey, we need to go out home learning.
We're saying, hey, what's the plan for this? What's the
plan if it gets worse? What's the plan if we
get to emergency level where our levels of petrol and fuel?
(24:16):
And that's not been clear. And again we need that
nuts and bolts detail. That's how schools run. They don't
run on hope and philosophies. They run on nuts and bolts,
hard work of teachers, principles.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
And the students and their community.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
And so yeah, that's what we're really asking the government
for is just a plan.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Thanks for joining us, Chris.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Nora is at all. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine Dickie is
our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and
our executive producer.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Is Jane Ye.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Follow the Front page on the iheartapp or wherever you
get your podcasts, and join us next time
Speaker 3 (25:07):
For another look beyond the headlines.
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